1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,240 JUDY WOODRUFF: As we reported earlier, the U.S. House of Representatives today took up 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:09,240 a contempt of Congress charge against Mark Meadows, the former White House chief of staff. 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,480 This comes after Meadows defied a subpoena from the select committee 4 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,560 in the Senate investigating the January 6 attack on the Capitol. 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:20,480 Lisa Desjardins begins our coverage. 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,560 LISA DESJARDINS: On the House floor today yet another rarity. 7 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:26,480 REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): There's just a handful of people 8 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,320 like Mr. Bannon, like Mr. Meadows who somehow think that they're above the law. 9 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,400 LISA DESJARDINS: Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin and other select committee investigators 10 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:39,400 argued for a contempt of Congress charge for a second very high-profile Trump advisory, 11 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,880 Mark Meadows, the former chief of staff to President Trump, 12 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,160 who just two years ago was himself a House member. 13 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:52,640 On January 6, as attackers smashed and punched their way into the Capitol, 14 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:57,640 Meadows was at the White House with Trump making him a pivotal hub of information from both 15 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:03,080 ends of Pennsylvania Avenue. Now he is a flash point over the push for his testimony 16 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,480 and Trump allies' insistence that it's political. 17 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:10,080 REP. JAMIE RASKIN: Mark Meadows has to testify. He has to come in, 18 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:16,040 like 300 American citizens have patriotically and lawfully done. What makes him special? The 19 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,000 fact that he knows a former president of the United States? I'm afraid not. 20 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:26,880 REP. MARY MILLER (R-IL): The members of the January 6 commission have turned this body into 21 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:31,880 a Star Chamber, using the powers of Congress to persecute and bankrupt their political opponents. 22 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:38,280 LISA DESJARDINS: The back-and-forth is complicated. Meadows did turn over 6, 600 pages of 23 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:44,440 e-mails and around 2,000 text messages. Notably, he also sent so-called privilege logs, enumerating 24 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:51,480 hundreds more documents which he claimed could not be shared because of separation of power. 25 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,800 Then he did not show up for a deposition last week. 26 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,000 REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): Whatever legacy he thought he left in the House, 27 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,080 this is his legacy now. 28 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,360 LISA DESJARDINS: Last night, as it recommended contempt charges, 29 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,440 the select committee also read some of the Meadows texts it has out loud. 30 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:14,000 REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Donald Trump Jr. texted again and again, 31 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:19,880 urging action by the president -- quote -- "We need an Oval Office address. He has to lead now. 32 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:28,080 It has gone too far and gotten out of hand" -- end quote. 33 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,160 LISA DESJARDINS: The committee also wants to ask Meadows about an e-mail in which Meadows 34 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:37,160 wrote that on January 6 the National Guard would -- quote -- "protect pro-Trump people." 35 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,680 Meadows responded last night to all of this on FOX News. 36 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,640 MARK MEADOWS, Former White House Chief of Staff: Let's be clear about this, Sean. This is not about 37 00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:49,360 me, holding me in contempt. It's not even about making the Capitol safer. 38 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:54,000 This is about Donald Trump and about actually going after him once again. 39 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:58,400 LISA DESJARDINS: Meadows and Trump are both suing the select committee over its requests. 40 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,880 Judges have so far ruled against Trump. 41 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:05,880 And, today, Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell, who blocked a bipartisan commission, 42 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:11,080 but has blasted Trump for January 6, had notably open words about the committee's work. 43 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:15,440 SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): I do think we're all watching, as you are, what's unfolding on 44 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:20,440 the House side, and it will be interesting to reveal all the participants who were involved. 45 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,360 LISA DESJARDINS: All this as the attorney general for the District of Columbia 46 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:30,360 announced a first-of-its-kind lawsuit, seeking civil finds for individuals and two groups, 47 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,600 the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers, for their role in the Capitol attack. 48 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,000 For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Lisa Desjardins. 49 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,520 JUDY WOODRUFF: Meadows' refusal to cooperate and the committee's 50 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,160 recommendation to hold him in contempt of Congress 51 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:49,160 raise questions about executive privilege and about what information the committee is owed. 52 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,880 For some answers, we turn to Jonathan Shaub. He is a professor 53 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,880 at the University of Kentucky College of Law and a contributing editor 54 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:01,880 at Lawfare. He previously served in the Office of Legal Counsel at the Department of Justice. 55 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,880 And before I come to you, Jonathan Shaub, I want to clarify. 56 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:09,120 I said the issue was taken up in the Senate. It was 57 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:14,120 in the House, the House select committee, of course, where this investigation is under way. 58 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:19,240 But let me just ask you about Mr. Meadows. He is yet another witness who won't testify 59 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:25,080 before this House select committee. But they have received documents. They have 60 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:30,160 received some information. So is the committee being stymied, or are they making progress? 61 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:35,160 JONATHAN SHAUB, University of Kentucky: Well, I think they're being stymied with respect to 62 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,600 the information that Meadows has that maybe nobody else has, 63 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,520 what was going on that day in the White House, what was President Trump doing. 64 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:49,320 And Meadows is probably one of the only sources from whom they could get that information. But 65 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:55,120 they have a ton of other information. They revealed yesterday they had interviewed, 66 00:04:55,120 --> 00:05:00,120 I think, over 300 witnesses. They have a ton of documents, including some from Meadows himself. 67 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:05,680 So it seems like they will be able to piece together what happened and what 68 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:10,680 was going on for the most part. But I do think there's probably certain pieces of information 69 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:16,160 relating specifically to what was happening in the White House that they may not be able to get 70 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:21,160 as long as Meadows and others who may have that information continue to refuse to provide it. 71 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:27,320 JUDY WOODRUFF: So, when Mark Meadows' attorney talks about executive privilege, 72 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,920 referring to President Trump, what exactly 73 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:34,880 does that mean, and how and where would it apply in a situation like this? 74 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:39,600 JONATHAN SHAUB: So, executive privilege has a long history. 75 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,600 And it's generally the doctrine that the president has the authority to withhold information if the 76 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:51,080 disclosure of that information would harm the public interest, if the president determines that. 77 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:56,200 And so it's a power belonging to the president. It's typically invoked for private conversations 78 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:02,200 of the president, for national security information, attorney-client information. So, 79 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:07,760 here, we have a former president who's been - - who is asserting it, President Trump. 80 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,400 And the Biden White House has said very clearly 81 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:15,400 there's no privilege claim here. The events of January 6 are extraordinary. The committee has a 82 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,840 need for them, and so we're not going to assert privilege or related doctrines like immunity. 83 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:25,560 And President Trump has sued to contest that determination. And, so far, he's lost 84 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,880 with the D.C. Circuit, and he has a chance to appeal to the Supreme Court. 85 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,840 But, generally, it's a presidential authority, and so it's very hard to see why a former president 86 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,600 would get to make a determination about what's in the public interest, 87 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,880 as opposed to the president who is currently serving in that office. 88 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:42,640 JUDY WOODRUFF: And that's what we're trying to understand, 89 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:47,640 whether this claim or invoking of executive privilege is going to hold up in court. 90 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:52,800 JONATHAN SHAUB: Well, so, once you go to contempt, 91 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,200 Meadows is going to defend himself -- and his lawyer has already done this -- by saying, 92 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,840 even if I'm incorrect about privilege, I was operating in good faith. 93 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:07,440 And the committee is really no longer going to be able to get information from Meadows. 94 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,880 He's subject to criminal prosecution, but that won't take place for 95 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:16,440 potentially a year or several months. So it's very unlikely that, at this point, 96 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,840 they will get Meadows to cooperate once they have held him in contempt. 97 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,840 And I think they basically said we have got as much information as we can from him, 98 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:28,320 he's now adopted this total defiance stance, and so we're going to refer him for contempt 99 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:32,400 to Congress and use him as an example to other witnesses who we do want to comply. 100 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:37,120 JUDY WOODRUFF: So, Jonathan Shaub, as you look at the big picture of what this select committee is 101 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:42,080 trying to get, they're trying to get to the bottom of what happened on January the 6th. 102 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:46,880 What is standing in their way, mainly, and what do you think is working in their favor? 103 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,080 JONATHAN SHAUB: Well, I think the fact that the 104 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:54,320 Department of Justice moved forward with the prosecution of Steve Bannon shows that 105 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,480 there are serious consequences to defying the committee's subpoenas. 106 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,640 If they indict Mark Meadows, then that will be even further evidence, 107 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,960 because Mark Meadow was, of course, in the government. 108 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:09,760 So, even -- if he can be prosecuted, that will serve as a example to other government officials. 109 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,800 So I think they're probably going to be able to get a lot of information about the day 110 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,240 and reconstruct what was happening going up to 111 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:22,080 January 6 and on the day itself. And -- but I do think, though, 112 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:27,080 they probably won't be able to force people who remain very loyal to President Trump to comply. 113 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:32,200 JUDY WOODRUFF: Meaning that they will be able to claim executive privilege and hold out for 114 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,280 courts to rule in their favor? 115 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,600 JONATHAN SHAUB: Yes, I mean, they will cite executive privilege, 116 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,240 and they will defend themselves in a criminal prosecution. 117 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:46,720 But the court actions, even if the committee decided to pursue a civil action, it just takes 118 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,480 time. And from what I have understood, the chairman has said they want to be completed 119 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:55,480 by spring, or, at the very latest, the end of 2022, when there's another election. 120 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:01,080 So I can't imagine that court resolution of issues involving executive privilege would 121 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:03,360 occur before that time frame. 122 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,040 JUDY WOODRUFF: Still a lot of questions, 123 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,320 a lot of questions out there about what the committee will be able to get. 124 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,920 Jonathan Shaub, University of Kentucky Law School, thank you very much. 125 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,040 JONATHAN SHAUB: Well, thanks for having me.