WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:04.240 JUDY WOODRUFF: As we reported earlier, the U.S. House of Representatives today took up 00:04.240 --> 00:09.240 a contempt of Congress charge against Mark Meadows, the former White House chief of staff. 00:10.000 --> 00:14.480 This comes after Meadows defied a subpoena from the select committee 00:14.480 --> 00:18.560 in the Senate investigating the January 6 attack on the Capitol. 00:18.560 --> 00:20.480 Lisa Desjardins begins our coverage. 00:21.120 --> 00:24.560 LISA DESJARDINS: On the House floor today yet another rarity. 00:24.560 --> 00:26.480 REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): There's just a handful of people 00:26.480 --> 00:30.320 like Mr. Bannon, like Mr. Meadows who somehow think that they're above the law. 00:30.320 --> 00:34.400 LISA DESJARDINS: Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin and other select committee investigators 00:34.400 --> 00:39.400 argued for a contempt of Congress charge for a second very high-profile Trump advisory, 00:40.640 --> 00:44.880 Mark Meadows, the former chief of staff to President Trump, 00:44.880 --> 00:48.160 who just two years ago was himself a House member. 00:48.160 --> 00:52.640 On January 6, as attackers smashed and punched their way into the Capitol, 00:52.640 --> 00:57.640 Meadows was at the White House with Trump making him a pivotal hub of information from both 00:58.080 --> 01:03.080 ends of Pennsylvania Avenue. Now he is a flash point over the push for his testimony 01:03.600 --> 01:06.480 and Trump allies' insistence that it's political. 01:06.480 --> 01:10.080 REP. JAMIE RASKIN: Mark Meadows has to testify. He has to come in, 01:11.040 --> 01:16.040 like 300 American citizens have patriotically and lawfully done. What makes him special? The 01:18.480 --> 01:22.000 fact that he knows a former president of the United States? I'm afraid not. 01:22.000 --> 01:26.880 REP. MARY MILLER (R-IL): The members of the January 6 commission have turned this body into 01:26.880 --> 01:31.880 a Star Chamber, using the powers of Congress to persecute and bankrupt their political opponents. 01:33.280 --> 01:38.280 LISA DESJARDINS: The back-and-forth is complicated. Meadows did turn over 6, 600 pages of 01:39.440 --> 01:44.440 e-mails and around 2,000 text messages. Notably, he also sent so-called privilege logs, enumerating 01:46.480 --> 01:51.480 hundreds more documents which he claimed could not be shared because of separation of power. 01:53.280 --> 01:56.800 Then he did not show up for a deposition last week. 01:56.800 --> 02:00.000 REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): Whatever legacy he thought he left in the House, 02:00.560 --> 02:02.080 this is his legacy now. 02:02.080 --> 02:05.360 LISA DESJARDINS: Last night, as it recommended contempt charges, 02:05.360 --> 02:09.440 the select committee also read some of the Meadows texts it has out loud. 02:09.440 --> 02:14.000 REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Donald Trump Jr. texted again and again, 02:14.880 --> 02:19.880 urging action by the president -- quote -- "We need an Oval Office address. He has to lead now. 02:23.600 --> 02:28.080 It has gone too far and gotten out of hand" -- end quote. 02:28.080 --> 02:32.160 LISA DESJARDINS: The committee also wants to ask Meadows about an e-mail in which Meadows 02:32.160 --> 02:37.160 wrote that on January 6 the National Guard would -- quote -- "protect pro-Trump people." 02:38.480 --> 02:41.680 Meadows responded last night to all of this on FOX News. 02:41.680 --> 02:44.640 MARK MEADOWS, Former White House Chief of Staff: Let's be clear about this, Sean. This is not about 02:44.640 --> 02:49.360 me, holding me in contempt. It's not even about making the Capitol safer. 02:49.360 --> 02:54.000 This is about Donald Trump and about actually going after him once again. 02:54.000 --> 02:58.400 LISA DESJARDINS: Meadows and Trump are both suing the select committee over its requests. 02:58.400 --> 03:00.880 Judges have so far ruled against Trump. 03:00.880 --> 03:05.880 And, today, Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell, who blocked a bipartisan commission, 03:06.080 --> 03:11.080 but has blasted Trump for January 6, had notably open words about the committee's work. 03:11.520 --> 03:15.440 SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): I do think we're all watching, as you are, what's unfolding on 03:15.440 --> 03:20.440 the House side, and it will be interesting to reveal all the participants who were involved. 03:22.000 --> 03:25.360 LISA DESJARDINS: All this as the attorney general for the District of Columbia 03:25.360 --> 03:30.360 announced a first-of-its-kind lawsuit, seeking civil finds for individuals and two groups, 03:31.200 --> 03:35.600 the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers, for their role in the Capitol attack. 03:35.600 --> 03:38.000 For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Lisa Desjardins. 03:38.000 --> 03:41.520 JUDY WOODRUFF: Meadows' refusal to cooperate and the committee's 03:41.520 --> 03:44.160 recommendation to hold him in contempt of Congress 03:44.160 --> 03:49.160 raise questions about executive privilege and about what information the committee is owed. 03:49.200 --> 03:52.880 For some answers, we turn to Jonathan Shaub. He is a professor 03:52.880 --> 03:56.880 at the University of Kentucky College of Law and a contributing editor 03:56.880 --> 04:01.880 at Lawfare. He previously served in the Office of Legal Counsel at the Department of Justice. 04:02.400 --> 04:04.880 And before I come to you, Jonathan Shaub, I want to clarify. 04:04.880 --> 04:09.120 I said the issue was taken up in the Senate. It was 04:09.120 --> 04:14.120 in the House, the House select committee, of course, where this investigation is under way. 04:14.240 --> 04:19.240 But let me just ask you about Mr. Meadows. He is yet another witness who won't testify 04:20.080 --> 04:25.080 before this House select committee. But they have received documents. They have 04:25.200 --> 04:30.160 received some information. So is the committee being stymied, or are they making progress? 04:30.160 --> 04:35.160 JONATHAN SHAUB, University of Kentucky: Well, I think they're being stymied with respect to 04:36.000 --> 04:39.600 the information that Meadows has that maybe nobody else has, 04:40.480 --> 04:43.520 what was going on that day in the White House, what was President Trump doing. 04:44.320 --> 04:49.320 And Meadows is probably one of the only sources from whom they could get that information. But 04:50.160 --> 04:55.120 they have a ton of other information. They revealed yesterday they had interviewed, 04:55.120 --> 05:00.120 I think, over 300 witnesses. They have a ton of documents, including some from Meadows himself. 05:01.280 --> 05:05.680 So it seems like they will be able to piece together what happened and what 05:05.680 --> 05:10.680 was going on for the most part. But I do think there's probably certain pieces of information 05:11.200 --> 05:16.160 relating specifically to what was happening in the White House that they may not be able to get 05:16.160 --> 05:21.160 as long as Meadows and others who may have that information continue to refuse to provide it. 05:22.320 --> 05:27.320 JUDY WOODRUFF: So, when Mark Meadows' attorney talks about executive privilege, 05:27.360 --> 05:29.920 referring to President Trump, what exactly 05:29.920 --> 05:34.880 does that mean, and how and where would it apply in a situation like this? 05:34.880 --> 05:39.600 JONATHAN SHAUB: So, executive privilege has a long history. 05:39.600 --> 05:44.600 And it's generally the doctrine that the president has the authority to withhold information if the 05:46.080 --> 05:51.080 disclosure of that information would harm the public interest, if the president determines that. 05:51.200 --> 05:56.200 And so it's a power belonging to the president. It's typically invoked for private conversations 05:57.200 --> 06:02.200 of the president, for national security information, attorney-client information. So, 06:03.280 --> 06:07.760 here, we have a former president who's been - - who is asserting it, President Trump. 06:07.760 --> 06:10.400 And the Biden White House has said very clearly 06:10.400 --> 06:15.400 there's no privilege claim here. The events of January 6 are extraordinary. The committee has a 06:15.600 --> 06:19.840 need for them, and so we're not going to assert privilege or related doctrines like immunity. 06:20.560 --> 06:25.560 And President Trump has sued to contest that determination. And, so far, he's lost 06:25.680 --> 06:28.880 with the D.C. Circuit, and he has a chance to appeal to the Supreme Court. 06:29.760 --> 06:33.840 But, generally, it's a presidential authority, and so it's very hard to see why a former president 06:34.480 --> 06:37.600 would get to make a determination about what's in the public interest, 06:37.600 --> 06:40.880 as opposed to the president who is currently serving in that office. 06:40.880 --> 06:42.640 JUDY WOODRUFF: And that's what we're trying to understand, 06:42.640 --> 06:47.640 whether this claim or invoking of executive privilege is going to hold up in court. 06:47.840 --> 06:52.800 JONATHAN SHAUB: Well, so, once you go to contempt, 06:53.360 --> 06:57.200 Meadows is going to defend himself -- and his lawyer has already done this -- by saying, 06:57.760 --> 07:01.840 even if I'm incorrect about privilege, I was operating in good faith. 07:02.880 --> 07:07.440 And the committee is really no longer going to be able to get information from Meadows. 07:07.440 --> 07:10.880 He's subject to criminal prosecution, but that won't take place for 07:11.440 --> 07:16.440 potentially a year or several months. So it's very unlikely that, at this point, 07:16.480 --> 07:19.840 they will get Meadows to cooperate once they have held him in contempt. 07:19.840 --> 07:23.840 And I think they basically said we have got as much information as we can from him, 07:23.840 --> 07:28.320 he's now adopted this total defiance stance, and so we're going to refer him for contempt 07:28.320 --> 07:32.400 to Congress and use him as an example to other witnesses who we do want to comply. 07:32.400 --> 07:37.120 JUDY WOODRUFF: So, Jonathan Shaub, as you look at the big picture of what this select committee is 07:37.120 --> 07:42.080 trying to get, they're trying to get to the bottom of what happened on January the 6th. 07:42.080 --> 07:46.880 What is standing in their way, mainly, and what do you think is working in their favor? 07:46.880 --> 07:50.080 JONATHAN SHAUB: Well, I think the fact that the 07:50.080 --> 07:54.320 Department of Justice moved forward with the prosecution of Steve Bannon shows that 07:54.960 --> 07:58.480 there are serious consequences to defying the committee's subpoenas. 07:59.120 --> 08:02.640 If they indict Mark Meadows, then that will be even further evidence, 08:02.640 --> 08:04.960 because Mark Meadow was, of course, in the government. 08:04.960 --> 08:09.760 So, even -- if he can be prosecuted, that will serve as a example to other government officials. 08:10.800 --> 08:14.800 So I think they're probably going to be able to get a lot of information about the day 08:14.800 --> 08:18.240 and reconstruct what was happening going up to 08:18.240 --> 08:22.080 January 6 and on the day itself. And -- but I do think, though, 08:22.080 --> 08:27.080 they probably won't be able to force people who remain very loyal to President Trump to comply. 08:27.200 --> 08:32.200 JUDY WOODRUFF: Meaning that they will be able to claim executive privilege and hold out for 08:34.480 --> 08:36.280 courts to rule in their favor? 08:36.280 --> 08:39.600 JONATHAN SHAUB: Yes, I mean, they will cite executive privilege, 08:39.600 --> 08:42.240 and they will defend themselves in a criminal prosecution. 08:42.240 --> 08:46.720 But the court actions, even if the committee decided to pursue a civil action, it just takes 08:46.720 --> 08:50.480 time. And from what I have understood, the chairman has said they want to be completed 08:50.480 --> 08:55.480 by spring, or, at the very latest, the end of 2022, when there's another election. 08:56.080 --> 09:01.080 So I can't imagine that court resolution of issues involving executive privilege would 09:01.840 --> 09:03.360 occur before that time frame. 09:03.360 --> 09:05.040 JUDY WOODRUFF: Still a lot of questions, 09:05.760 --> 09:08.320 a lot of questions out there about what the committee will be able to get. 09:08.320 --> 09:11.920 Jonathan Shaub, University of Kentucky Law School, thank you very much. 09:11.920 --> 09:15.040 JONATHAN SHAUB: Well, thanks for having me.