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LISA DESJARDINS: American
cities are facing two
aggravating crises,
affordable public housing is

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in short supply and violent
crime is on the rise. A
growing dynamic overlaps
both legions of cameras

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are being deployed in public
housing areas. Officials argue
they are a 24/7 crime deterrent.

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But what happens when the camera
focus shifts from fighting crime

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to monitoring the people they
were put in place to protect.
An investigation by the

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Washington Post found those
eyes on the poor are being used
to punish and evict residents,

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at times for miniscule
missteps at others based
on wrong assumptions.

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Doug MacMillan is the reporter
who led this investigation
for The Washington Post. And

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he joins us now, Doug, let's
start right off the top
here. These cameras are often

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purchased using government
grants meant for fighting
crime. But take us through

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what you found out about
punishment for those
who live in those areas.

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DOUG MACMILLAN, The
Washington Post: Yes, so
crime and drugs are still a
very, ever present problem

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in many of the public
housing communities around
the country. Not all of
them, but many of them.

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And one of the ways that they
are increasingly trying to fight
this problem is with cameras.

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And you know, they're
arguing that they can
cover more ground is often

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very budget conscious resource
strapped, local government
agencies are trying to

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cover more ground and watch
more of their territory
with these cameras.

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What my reporting has showed
is when they put these cameras
up, a lot of times they will

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begin turning them on
residence and using them
to catch violations of
their lease agreements

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that you and me and many of
our viewers here would probably
not classify as crimes.

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LISA DESJARDINS: What
are some specifics?

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DOUG MACMILLAN: So monitoring
people for smoking in the
wrong place. Catching one

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woman was in her eviction
proceedings in court
contained a picture of her

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removing a laundry basket
from the communal laundry
room, you know ...

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LISA DESJARDINS: And she
was evicted for that?

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DOUG MACMILLAN: She wasn't
evicted for that. But that was
part of the record that was

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brought before in court. And
the lawyers that I'm talking
to who helped people who

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are dealing with these evictions
say that more and more often,
evictions that they are seeing

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from public housing authorities
are referencing this footage.
And the footage is helping to

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persuade the courts and the
judges in order to remove
these people from their homes.

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LISA DESJARDINS: What do
the residents tell you about
this? Are they aware of

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these cameras? And what do
they see as the trade-offs
here and their lives?

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DOUG MACMILLAN: Yes,
many residents actually
want more cameras, many
residents in public

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housing do fear for their lives
and fear for the kind of crime
and drug problems that are

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around them. But a lot of
times when the cameras go
up, many of them kind of have

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a different experience.
And a different story
about the cameras are,
a lot of times they do

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not say that the cameras
are being used to capture
the problems that are
the most severe for them.

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For example, the daily
occurrences of packages
being stolen from their
doorstep or a car being

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hit in front of their, their
door. A lot of times when these
kinds of things happen what

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they tell me is that they
will go to the housing
authority asked for the footage

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to help them kind of solve
those problems. And in many
times they say they're being

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told that the footage is not
available or that they can't
be used for that purpose.

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So the question that you
have to ask is, are these
cameras being used to help the

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community that they're being
put in to help or are they being
used to watch that community.

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LISA DESJARDINS: How
widespread is this and how
widespread is the use also,

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facial recognition here?

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DOUG MACMILLAN: Yes, they're
the cameras themselves are
increasingly widespread. I mean,

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most public housing
authorities have some kind
of surveillance system.
But what's happened in the

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past few years is they've gotten
increasingly sophisticated.
And with these federal grants

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at the Department
of Housing and Urban
Development makes about $10

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million annually available
to public housing agencies.

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And increasingly, that
money is going further.
So in the past two or
three years now that money

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that you leaves to get
you a basic camera setup
can now get you things
like facial recognition,

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or cameras that have
software baked into them
that can recognize what's
going on the screen,

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in some cases, make
determinations about what's
going on in the screen and

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determinations about what
it thinks is suspicious.

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LISA DESJARDINS: Wow, so
that's really sort of a

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big brother factor what
everyone's doing and
when in that community?

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DOUG MACMILLAN: Well,
it's this question about
automating policing and
automating, you know,

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letting the camera and
an algorithm decide
what is suspicious. And
researchers have shown that

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facial recognition, for
example, has been biased towards
people of color and women,

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many cases have been
misidentified by facial
recognition cameras.

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So am I reporting a show
that and some not many yet, I
think it's still very early,

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but in some public housing,
authorities are beginning to
use facial recognition to do

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things like enforce banned lists
to identify people who have
been banned from the property

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and alert authorities when they
see -- when the cameras see
them enter this properties.

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LISA DESJARDINS: What are some
of the ultimate consequences you
found here? Can folks who face

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eviction from this appeal
these decisions? And is there
any dialogue either from your

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reporting with officials or
for residents who say we don't
like this? How does that work?

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DOUG MACMILLAN: Well, in
many cases, I've found the
residents are not aware
of the cameras or any

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kind of policies around them.
And most of the cases I found
the housing authorities haven't

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really kind of laid out
policies around how they are
going to use these cameras.

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So I think what you could see
for going forward is more of
a dialogue about, you know,

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what should we allow these
cameras abused for with
should they not be allowed
to use for. But yes,

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the consequences can be
very severe when people
lose their home in public
housing. Oftentimes,

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they end up homeless because
public housing, they're
often at the end of the rope,

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and they don't have any
other options. That's
why they are living in
government subsidized housing.

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And when they are evicted
from their home, they often
not only are homeless,

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but their future opportunities
for employment and housing
are severely diminished.

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LISA DESJARDINS: You featured
a woman who is on her sister's
couch I think right now.

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DOUG MACMILLAN: Yes, a
woman who was kicked out
of her housing for smoking
outside of the property,

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among other reasons. And she's
living her sister's couch.
And she told me that when

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she's applying for housing
now, when she goes to kind
of apply for the next stop,

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she keeps getting into
this barrier of they're
running a reference check.

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And they're rejecting
her based on her eviction
from public housing.

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And so, you know, one
instance like that of
the cameras catching

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you doing something wrong
could end up having lifetime
consequences for you.

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LISA DESJARDINS: I could hear
some people saying, these
folks are breaking rules,

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they're in public housing.
Is there any context on
whether other kinds of

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landlords outside of public
housing could evict people
for these sorts of things?

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DOUG MACMILLAN: Definitely,
my reporting didn't
really focus on this,

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but the cameras and surveillance
equipment is growing focus for
private developers all around

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the country. And I think
they're actually, you know, more
opportunities for them to use

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sophisticated surveillance
methods because they're not
beholden to any federal agency

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or any local government
agency, and the kinds of
policies and scrutiny that
might result from that.

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LISA DESJARDINS: Doug MacMillan,
a fascinating, important area
that we might not have known

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about except for your
reporting. Thank you for the
Washington Post joining us.

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DOUG MACMILLAN: Thanks, Lisa.