1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,000 LISA DESJARDINS: American cities are facing two aggravating crises, affordable public housing is 2 00:00:07,466 --> 00:00:10,200 in short supply and violent crime is on the rise. A growing dynamic overlaps both legions of cameras 3 00:00:12,166 --> 00:00:17,166 are being deployed in public housing areas. Officials argue they are a 24/7 crime deterrent. 4 00:00:18,633 --> 00:00:21,400 But what happens when the camera focus shifts from fighting crime 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:26,400 to monitoring the people they were put in place to protect. An investigation by the 6 00:00:28,366 --> 00:00:31,433 Washington Post found those eyes on the poor are being used to punish and evict residents, 7 00:00:33,033 --> 00:00:36,133 at times for miniscule missteps at others based on wrong assumptions. 8 00:00:36,133 --> 00:00:40,266 Doug MacMillan is the reporter who led this investigation for The Washington Post. And 9 00:00:40,266 --> 00:00:45,266 he joins us now, Doug, let's start right off the top here. These cameras are often 10 00:00:45,266 --> 00:00:50,233 purchased using government grants meant for fighting crime. But take us through 11 00:00:51,866 --> 00:00:54,400 what you found out about punishment for those who live in those areas. 12 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,800 DOUG MACMILLAN, The Washington Post: Yes, so crime and drugs are still a very, ever present problem 13 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,500 in many of the public housing communities around the country. Not all of them, but many of them. 14 00:01:01,500 --> 00:01:05,866 And one of the ways that they are increasingly trying to fight this problem is with cameras. 15 00:01:05,866 --> 00:01:09,400 And you know, they're arguing that they can cover more ground is often 16 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:14,400 very budget conscious resource strapped, local government agencies are trying to 17 00:01:16,266 --> 00:01:19,066 cover more ground and watch more of their territory with these cameras. 18 00:01:19,066 --> 00:01:22,966 What my reporting has showed is when they put these cameras up, a lot of times they will 19 00:01:22,966 --> 00:01:27,966 begin turning them on residence and using them to catch violations of their lease agreements 20 00:01:29,833 --> 00:01:32,966 that you and me and many of our viewers here would probably not classify as crimes. 21 00:01:32,966 --> 00:01:34,966 LISA DESJARDINS: What are some specifics? 22 00:01:34,966 --> 00:01:38,933 DOUG MACMILLAN: So monitoring people for smoking in the wrong place. Catching one 23 00:01:38,933 --> 00:01:42,966 woman was in her eviction proceedings in court contained a picture of her 24 00:01:42,966 --> 00:01:47,166 removing a laundry basket from the communal laundry room, you know ... 25 00:01:47,166 --> 00:01:49,233 LISA DESJARDINS: And she was evicted for that? 26 00:01:49,233 --> 00:01:51,366 DOUG MACMILLAN: She wasn't evicted for that. But that was part of the record that was 27 00:01:51,366 --> 00:01:54,800 brought before in court. And the lawyers that I'm talking to who helped people who 28 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:59,766 are dealing with these evictions say that more and more often, evictions that they are seeing 29 00:02:01,833 --> 00:02:05,100 from public housing authorities are referencing this footage. And the footage is helping to 30 00:02:07,066 --> 00:02:10,200 persuade the courts and the judges in order to remove these people from their homes. 31 00:02:12,133 --> 00:02:14,200 LISA DESJARDINS: What do the residents tell you about this? Are they aware of 32 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,366 these cameras? And what do they see as the trade-offs here and their lives? 33 00:02:17,366 --> 00:02:21,166 DOUG MACMILLAN: Yes, many residents actually want more cameras, many residents in public 34 00:02:21,166 --> 00:02:26,166 housing do fear for their lives and fear for the kind of crime and drug problems that are 35 00:02:28,100 --> 00:02:30,400 around them. But a lot of times when the cameras go up, many of them kind of have 36 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:35,333 a different experience. And a different story about the cameras are, a lot of times they do 37 00:02:35,333 --> 00:02:39,933 not say that the cameras are being used to capture the problems that are the most severe for them. 38 00:02:39,933 --> 00:02:44,933 For example, the daily occurrences of packages being stolen from their doorstep or a car being 39 00:02:46,900 --> 00:02:49,466 hit in front of their, their door. A lot of times when these kinds of things happen what 40 00:02:49,466 --> 00:02:52,466 they tell me is that they will go to the housing authority asked for the footage 41 00:02:52,466 --> 00:02:56,233 to help them kind of solve those problems. And in many times they say they're being 42 00:02:56,233 --> 00:02:59,966 told that the footage is not available or that they can't be used for that purpose. 43 00:02:59,966 --> 00:03:04,600 So the question that you have to ask is, are these cameras being used to help the 44 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:09,600 community that they're being put in to help or are they being used to watch that community. 45 00:03:11,500 --> 00:03:13,533 LISA DESJARDINS: How widespread is this and how widespread is the use also, 46 00:03:14,333 --> 00:03:16,300 facial recognition here? 47 00:03:16,300 --> 00:03:19,900 DOUG MACMILLAN: Yes, they're the cameras themselves are increasingly widespread. I mean, 48 00:03:19,900 --> 00:03:23,700 most public housing authorities have some kind of surveillance system. But what's happened in the 49 00:03:23,700 --> 00:03:28,600 past few years is they've gotten increasingly sophisticated. And with these federal grants 50 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,000 at the Department of Housing and Urban Development makes about $10 51 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,900 million annually available to public housing agencies. 52 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:38,900 And increasingly, that money is going further. So in the past two or three years now that money 53 00:03:40,966 --> 00:03:44,533 that you leaves to get you a basic camera setup can now get you things like facial recognition, 54 00:03:46,966 --> 00:03:49,566 or cameras that have software baked into them that can recognize what's going on the screen, 55 00:03:51,466 --> 00:03:54,033 in some cases, make determinations about what's going on in the screen and 56 00:03:54,033 --> 00:03:56,566 determinations about what it thinks is suspicious. 57 00:03:56,566 --> 00:03:58,266 LISA DESJARDINS: Wow, so that's really sort of a 58 00:03:58,266 --> 00:04:01,333 big brother factor what everyone's doing and when in that community? 59 00:04:01,333 --> 00:04:05,633 DOUG MACMILLAN: Well, it's this question about automating policing and automating, you know, 60 00:04:05,633 --> 00:04:10,633 letting the camera and an algorithm decide what is suspicious. And researchers have shown that 61 00:04:12,466 --> 00:04:15,666 facial recognition, for example, has been biased towards people of color and women, 62 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,500 many cases have been misidentified by facial recognition cameras. 63 00:04:19,500 --> 00:04:23,700 So am I reporting a show that and some not many yet, I think it's still very early, 64 00:04:23,700 --> 00:04:28,233 but in some public housing, authorities are beginning to use facial recognition to do 65 00:04:28,233 --> 00:04:32,633 things like enforce banned lists to identify people who have been banned from the property 66 00:04:32,633 --> 00:04:36,500 and alert authorities when they see -- when the cameras see them enter this properties. 67 00:04:36,500 --> 00:04:40,300 LISA DESJARDINS: What are some of the ultimate consequences you found here? Can folks who face 68 00:04:40,300 --> 00:04:45,300 eviction from this appeal these decisions? And is there any dialogue either from your 69 00:04:47,333 --> 00:04:50,200 reporting with officials or for residents who say we don't like this? How does that work? 70 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,300 DOUG MACMILLAN: Well, in many cases, I've found the residents are not aware of the cameras or any 71 00:04:54,300 --> 00:04:59,300 kind of policies around them. And most of the cases I found the housing authorities haven't 72 00:05:01,366 --> 00:05:03,433 really kind of laid out policies around how they are going to use these cameras. 73 00:05:03,433 --> 00:05:08,233 So I think what you could see for going forward is more of a dialogue about, you know, 74 00:05:10,766 --> 00:05:13,566 what should we allow these cameras abused for with should they not be allowed to use for. But yes, 75 00:05:16,066 --> 00:05:18,766 the consequences can be very severe when people lose their home in public housing. Oftentimes, 76 00:05:18,766 --> 00:05:22,300 they end up homeless because public housing, they're often at the end of the rope, 77 00:05:22,300 --> 00:05:25,833 and they don't have any other options. That's why they are living in government subsidized housing. 78 00:05:25,833 --> 00:05:29,400 And when they are evicted from their home, they often not only are homeless, 79 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,200 but their future opportunities for employment and housing are severely diminished. 80 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:35,800 LISA DESJARDINS: You featured a woman who is on her sister's couch I think right now. 81 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:40,733 DOUG MACMILLAN: Yes, a woman who was kicked out of her housing for smoking outside of the property, 82 00:05:42,666 --> 00:05:45,033 among other reasons. And she's living her sister's couch. And she told me that when 83 00:05:45,033 --> 00:05:49,066 she's applying for housing now, when she goes to kind of apply for the next stop, 84 00:05:49,066 --> 00:05:52,900 she keeps getting into this barrier of they're running a reference check. 85 00:05:52,900 --> 00:05:55,566 And they're rejecting her based on her eviction from public housing. 86 00:05:55,566 --> 00:05:58,666 And so, you know, one instance like that of the cameras catching 87 00:05:58,666 --> 00:06:03,100 you doing something wrong could end up having lifetime consequences for you. 88 00:06:03,100 --> 00:06:06,100 LISA DESJARDINS: I could hear some people saying, these folks are breaking rules, 89 00:06:06,100 --> 00:06:10,000 they're in public housing. Is there any context on whether other kinds of 90 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,600 landlords outside of public housing could evict people for these sorts of things? 91 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,133 DOUG MACMILLAN: Definitely, my reporting didn't really focus on this, 92 00:06:16,133 --> 00:06:21,133 but the cameras and surveillance equipment is growing focus for private developers all around 93 00:06:23,033 --> 00:06:27,233 the country. And I think they're actually, you know, more opportunities for them to use 94 00:06:27,233 --> 00:06:32,033 sophisticated surveillance methods because they're not beholden to any federal agency 95 00:06:32,033 --> 00:06:36,933 or any local government agency, and the kinds of policies and scrutiny that might result from that. 96 00:06:36,933 --> 00:06:40,833 LISA DESJARDINS: Doug MacMillan, a fascinating, important area that we might not have known 97 00:06:40,833 --> 00:06:44,500 about except for your reporting. Thank you for the Washington Post joining us. 98 00:06:44,500 --> 00:06:45,333 DOUG MACMILLAN: Thanks, Lisa.