former President Donald Trump, Judy# Woodruff explores what another Trump## nomination and presidency could mean for# the Republican Party and for the country.
It's part of her series America at a Crossroads.
JUDY WOODRUFF: It's not even February,# and former President Trump appears## to be on his way to sewing up his third GOP# nomination to the highest office in th DONALD TRUMP, Former President of# the United States (R) and Current## JUDY WOODRUFF: After wins# polls show him leading in# South Carolina and beyond.
Elected Republican leaders are scrambling# to climb on board.
Texas Senator John Cornyn## joined over half the GOP members of the# Senate and most of those in the House.
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): I have# endorsed him wholeheartedly.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I think he's SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): We need Donald Trump!
JUDY WOODRUFF: But not all those in Republican# and conservative circles are joining including "Atlantic" magazine writer David Frum,## former speechwriter for President George# W. Bush and a longtime Trump critic.
DAVID FRUM, Senior Editor, "The Atlantic":# Trump has -- he's got some skills,## and one of his skills is understanding# where the pain points are in people,## that -- the things that make him upset,# both his friends and his enemies.
How do## you make your enemies upset?
Because it's# often a great asset or a reso politician like him to have upset opponents,# to make the opponents crazy with rage too.
JUDY WOODRUFF: How does he fit into the tradition# of conservative thought in the United States?
DAVID FRUM: If conservatism means protecting# things that are precious in America,## being mindful of the hazards of# change, setting limits on power,## setting limits on appetite, well,# Donald Trump isn't any of those things.
Donald Trump is exactly the person and exactly# the thing that conservativ sought to exclude from power.
The whole# point of conservative politics has been## that you want to have power distributed, you# want to have power decentralized, you want to## make sure that the people who come to power are# people who both understand the constitutional## restraints on power, but also have the personal,# the character restraints on their own appetites.
The anger and rage, the desire to target,# the willingness to use methods that are## anti-constitutional, the fascination with# violence, these are characteristics of## a different kind of politics than the kinds of# politics in the past we have called conservative.
JUDY WOODRUFF: How do you explain the# loyalty that Donald Trump has today?
DAVID FRUM: Well, we have seen that kind of# loyalty before in state-level politicians,## Mayor Curley in Boston, who somehow# got the support of a certain segment## of Irish Catholic Boston, Huey Long in Louisiana.
What these kinds of leaders do is they associate# their hurts and grievances with other people's## hurts and grievances, and they use hurts# and grievances as permission to break rules,## and because they have convinced people# that the people who are enforcing the## rules are your cultural enemies.# And even if I did break the rule,## the fact is, you're still -- I'm# on your side and they're not.
I don't think we have ever seen this before with a# federal -- succe I want to speak to hurts and grievances across# the whole culture, across the whole country,## and everyone who tries to enforce# rules on me is an enemy of yours.
JUDY WOODRUFF: For someone who has been# at the center of conservative thought,## of watching conservatives, watching the Republican# Party progress over time, tackle tough issues,## do you feel that you should have seen# something like Donald Trump coming along?
DAVID FRUM: I did my grieving for# my Republican Party in 2010, '11,## and '12.
So I'm now deep into my widowhood.# I can think about this pretty I went to Tea Party rallies and I said,# not only do I not recognize this.
Actually,## on second thought, I do recognize this and# it's everything I'm against.
So that was## hard.
But when Trump came along, look, I was# shocked because he was so personally wicked.
But I was not shocked in# that this was a completely## different thing from what I'd been seeing before.
JUDY WOODRUFF: There's an animosity, a# personal nat people feel now about politics.
What is the# effect that Donald Trump is having on that?
And if he were reelected,# what effect would it have?
DAVID FRUM: Well, I wonder whether there's really## more division in the country today# than at other Remember the feeling about Vietnam and the draft.# I bet families had a tumult sittin dinner in 1969, '70, and '71.
Debates over civil# rights and the integration of schools in the early## 1950s and early 1960s, I bet there are families# that had difficulty reconciling about that.
But back then, the political system# saw its job as managing.
Leaders knew,## this is an incredibly diverse country,# rural versus urban, race upon race,## ethnicity upon ethnicity, religion upon# religion, sometimes men against women,## young against old, rich against poor,# all of these potential fault lines.
And it's the job of the people who meet in the# buildings down the road here to manage t to say, we keep -- while everyone else is getting# excited, we keep our cool.
And we remember th what is really important are dams and roads and# high schools and defense plants.
And we're going## to make the deals based on that.
And we're all# just going to lower the temperature at the center.
But the political circle at the top no longer# sees these conflicts as dangers to manage.## They see them as resources to exploit.
And Donald# Trump is better at this than just about anybody,## that they take this dangerous stuff,# and they say that is going to be not## something I'm going to try to contain,# but something I will use for fuel.
JUDY WOODRUFF: What effect does# that have on today's divisions?
DAVID FRUM: We will be more fractious,# we will be more argumentative, because## all the demons that exist in any society will# not only be liberated by t but will be encouraged, because Donald# Trump will be looking to his constituency## of very upset people in order to impose his# lawless will upon the constitutional system.
I want to get away with Watergate.
I want to# pardon myself.
I want to fire prosecutors.
I## want to do all the things that Nixon# did and many of the things that Nixon## never dared to do.
And I'm telling you in# advance I'm followers to frighten the political# system into letting me have my way.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And if Trump does use# the criminal justice system to shut down# investigations into his own conduct, including# alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election,## the consequences will be dire, according to Frum.
DAVID FRUM: The country will be in the# streets.
Congress will be in an We will talk about nothing else.
There# will be no other policy.
no other topic.
You won't be able to# accomplish anything.
There will be## resignations from the Department of Justice.# There may be resignati It is going to be chaos, and# the chaos will never stop.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And if, conversely,# Joe Biden wins reelection,## what happens to the current state of# our country, of our polarized state?
DAVID FRUM: Sigmund Freud, the founder of# psychiatry, is supposed to have said that the## purpose of psychiatry is to convert hysterical# obsessive neurosis into ordinary unhappine If Joe Biden wins, we get all our# usual problems back, rich versus poor,## urban versus rural, climate change,# deficits, structure of world peace,## trade with China.
Not a single problem# will be fixed, but we will have a working## set of institutions with which to address the# problems.
And our disagreements won't go away.
You will just have non-sociopathic,# non-psychopathic people saying, OK, the people## outside this room disagree a lot.
We are going# to sit down at the table and find something we## can agree on, so that I can take something to my# people and you can take something to your people.
JUDY WOODRUFF: No guarantee, however, that the# divisions among the American people would ease up.
For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm# Judy Woodruff in Washington.