WEBVTT 00:05.366 --> 00:09.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% former President Donald Trump, Judy# Woodruff explores what another Trump## 00:09.600 --> 00:14.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% nomination and presidency could mean for# the Republican Party and for the country. 00:14.733 --> 00:20.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's part of her series America at a Crossroads. 00:20.233 --> 00:23.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: It's not even February,# and former President Trump appears## 00:23.933 --> 00:30.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% to be on his way to sewing up his third GOP# nomination to the highest office in th 00:30.533 --> 00:31.966 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% DONALD TRUMP, Former President of# the United States (R) and Current## 00:31.966 --> 00:35.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: After wins# 00:35.000 --> 00:38.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% polls show him leading in# South Carolina and beyond. 00:38.900 --> 00:44.766 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Elected Republican leaders are scrambling# to climb on board. Texas Senator John Cornyn## 00:44.766 --> 00:50.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% joined over half the GOP members of the# Senate and most of those in the House. 00:50.300 --> 00:52.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): I have# endorsed him wholeheartedly. 00:52.300 --> 00:55.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I think he's 00:55.433 --> 00:59.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%   SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): We need Donald Trump! 00:59.100 --> 01:03.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: But not all those in Republican# and conservative circles are joining 01:03.933 --> 01:07.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% including "Atlantic" magazine writer David Frum,## 01:07.533 --> 01:13.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% former speechwriter for President George# W. Bush and a longtime Trump critic. 01:13.000 --> 01:16.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% DAVID FRUM, Senior Editor, "The Atlantic":# Trump has -- he's got some skills,## 01:16.533 --> 01:20.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and one of his skills is understanding# where the pain points are in people,## 01:20.333 --> 01:23.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% that -- the things that make him upset,# both his friends and his enemies. How do## 01:23.600 --> 01:28.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% you make your enemies upset? Because it's# often a great asset or a reso 01:28.166 --> 01:33.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% politician like him to have upset opponents,# to make the opponents crazy with rage too. 01:33.100 --> 01:40.566 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: How does he fit into the tradition# of conservative thought in the United States? 01:40.566 --> 01:45.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% DAVID FRUM: If conservatism means protecting# things that are precious in America,## 01:45.100 --> 01:49.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% being mindful of the hazards of# change, setting limits on power,## 01:49.900 --> 01:53.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% setting limits on appetite, well,# Donald Trump isn't any of those things. 01:53.200 --> 01:58.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Donald Trump is exactly the person and exactly# the thing that conservativ 01:58.533 --> 02:03.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% sought to exclude from power. The whole# point of conservative politics has been## 02:03.666 --> 02:08.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% that you want to have power distributed, you# want to have power decentralized, you want to## 02:08.533 --> 02:13.866 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% make sure that the people who come to power are# people who both understand the constitutional## 02:13.866 --> 02:20.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% restraints on power, but also have the personal,# the character restraints on their own appetites. 02:20.800 --> 02:26.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% The anger and rage, the desire to target,# the willingness to use methods that are## 02:26.266 --> 02:30.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% anti-constitutional, the fascination with# violence, these are characteristics of## 02:30.800 --> 02:35.566 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% a different kind of politics than the kinds of# politics in the past we have called conservative. 02:35.566 --> 02:40.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: How do you explain the# loyalty that Donald Trump has today? 02:40.333 --> 02:44.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% DAVID FRUM: Well, we have seen that kind of# loyalty before in state-level politicians,## 02:44.466 --> 02:48.566 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Mayor Curley in Boston, who somehow# got the support of a certain segment## 02:48.566 --> 02:52.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of Irish Catholic Boston, Huey Long in Louisiana. 02:52.866 --> 02:59.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% What these kinds of leaders do is they associate# their hurts and grievances with other people's## 02:59.700 --> 03:05.366 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% hurts and grievances, and they use hurts# and grievances as permission to break rules,## 03:05.366 --> 03:09.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and because they have convinced people# that the people who are enforcing the## 03:09.700 --> 03:13.366 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% rules are your cultural enemies.# And even if I did break the rule,## 03:13.366 --> 03:16.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the fact is, you're still -- I'm# on your side and they're not. 03:16.433 --> 03:20.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I don't think we have ever seen this before with a# federal -- succe 03:20.900 --> 03:25.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I want to speak to hurts and grievances across# the whole culture, across the whole country,## 03:25.466 --> 03:29.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and everyone who tries to enforce# rules on me is an enemy of yours. 03:29.600 --> 03:34.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: For someone who has been# at the center of conservative thought,## 03:34.000 --> 03:42.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% of watching conservatives, watching the Republican# Party progress over time, tackle tough issues,## 03:42.333 --> 03:48.866 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% do you feel that you should have seen# something like Donald Trump coming along? 03:48.866 --> 03:52.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% DAVID FRUM: I did my grieving for# my Republican Party in 2010, '11,## 03:52.333 --> 03:58.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and '12. So I'm now deep into my widowhood.# I can think about this pretty 03:58.900 --> 04:03.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%   I went to Tea Party rallies and I said,# not only do I not recognize this. Actually,## 04:03.200 --> 04:09.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% on second thought, I do recognize this and# it's everything I'm against. So that was## 04:09.266 --> 04:18.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% hard. But when Trump came along, look, I was# shocked because he was so personally wicked. 04:18.000 --> 04:21.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But I was not shocked in# that this was a completely## 04:21.066 --> 04:23.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% different thing from what I'd been seeing before. 04:23.600 --> 04:28.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: There's an animosity, a# personal nat 04:28.600 --> 04:34.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% people feel now about politics. What is the# effect that Donald Trump is having on that? 04:34.100 --> 04:37.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And if he were reelected,# what effect would it have? 04:37.166 --> 04:39.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% DAVID FRUM: Well, I wonder whether there's really## 04:39.566 --> 04:43.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% more division in the country today# than at other 04:43.333 --> 04:49.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Remember the feeling about Vietnam and the draft.# I bet families had a tumult sittin 04:49.066 --> 04:55.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% dinner in 1969, '70, and '71. Debates over civil# rights and the integration of schools in the early## 04:55.733 --> 05:00.766 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% 1950s and early 1960s, I bet there are families# that had difficulty reconciling about that. 05:00.766 --> 05:05.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% But back then, the political system# saw its job as managing. Leaders knew,## 05:05.300 --> 05:10.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% this is an incredibly diverse country,# rural versus urban, race upon race,## 05:10.166 --> 05:14.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% ethnicity upon ethnicity, religion upon# religion, sometimes men against women,## 05:14.200 --> 05:18.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% young against old, rich against poor,# all of these potential fault lines. 05:18.066 --> 05:22.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And it's the job of the people who meet in the# buildings down the road here to manage t 05:22.166 --> 05:27.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% to say, we keep -- while everyone else is getting# excited, we keep our cool. And we remember th 05:27.466 --> 05:33.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% what is really important are dams and roads and# high schools and defense plants. And we're going## 05:33.733 --> 05:38.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% to make the deals based on that. And we're all# just going to lower the temperature at the center. 05:38.166 --> 05:44.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% But the political circle at the top no longer# sees these conflicts as dangers to manage.## 05:44.333 --> 05:49.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% They see them as resources to exploit. And Donald# Trump is better at this than just about anybody,## 05:49.166 --> 05:53.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% that they take this dangerous stuff,# and they say that is going to be not## 05:53.600 --> 05:57.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% something I'm going to try to contain,# but something I will use for fuel. 05:57.433 --> 06:01.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: What effect does# that have on today's divisions? 06:01.166 --> 06:04.366 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% DAVID FRUM: We will be more fractious,# we will be more argumentative, because## 06:04.366 --> 06:10.366 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% all the demons that exist in any society will# not only be liberated by t 06:10.366 --> 06:14.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% but will be encouraged, because Donald# Trump will be looking to his constituency## 06:14.733 --> 06:22.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% of very upset people in order to impose his# lawless will upon the constitutional system. 06:22.200 --> 06:26.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I want to get away with Watergate. I want to# pardon myself. I want to fire prosecutors. I## 06:26.800 --> 06:29.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% want to do all the things that Nixon# did and many of the things that Nixon## 06:29.466 --> 06:33.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% never dared to do. And I'm telling you in# advance I'm 06:33.333 --> 06:36.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% followers to frighten the political# system into letting me have my way. 06:36.900 --> 06:41.866 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And if Trump does use# the criminal justice system to shut down# 06:41.866 --> 06:48.766 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% investigations into his own conduct, including# alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election,## 06:48.766 --> 06:52.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the consequences will be dire, according to Frum. 06:52.100 --> 06:55.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% DAVID FRUM: The country will be in the# streets. Congress will be in an 06:55.000 --> 06:58.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%   We will talk about nothing else. There# will be no other policy. 06:58.800 --> 07:01.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% no other topic. You won't be able to# accomplish anything. There will be## 07:01.900 --> 07:05.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% resignations from the Department of Justice.# There may be resignati 07:05.400 --> 07:09.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It is going to be chaos, and# the chaos will never stop. 07:09.400 --> 07:13.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And if, conversely,# Joe Biden wins reelection,## 07:13.900 --> 07:18.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% what happens to the current state of# our country, of our polarized state? 07:18.700 --> 07:22.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% DAVID FRUM: Sigmund Freud, the founder of# psychiatry, is supposed to have said that the## 07:22.700 --> 07:28.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% purpose of psychiatry is to convert hysterical# obsessive neurosis into ordinary unhappine 07:28.266 --> 07:32.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% If Joe Biden wins, we get all our# usual problems back, rich versus poor,## 07:32.600 --> 07:37.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% urban versus rural, climate change,# deficits, structure of world peace,## 07:37.400 --> 07:42.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% trade with China. Not a single problem# will be fixed, but we will have a working## 07:42.666 --> 07:46.766 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% set of institutions with which to address the# problems. And our disagreements won't go away. 07:46.766 --> 07:51.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% You will just have non-sociopathic,# non-psychopathic people saying, OK, the people## 07:51.800 --> 07:56.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% outside this room disagree a lot. We are going# to sit down at the table and find something we## 07:56.666 --> 08:01.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% can agree on, so that I can take something to my# people and you can take something to your people. 08:01.400 --> 08:07.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: No guarantee, however, that the# divisions among the American people would ease up. 08:07.466 --> 08:21.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm# Judy Woodruff in Washington.