WEBVTT 00:01.933 --> 00:04.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: It was a historic week in Washington that's reshaping the Republican Party. 00:04.700 --> 00:08.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% To discuss the fallout of Speaker Kevin McCarthy's ouster, we turn now to the 00:08.866 --> 00:13.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% analysis of Brooks and Marcus. That is New York Times columnist David Brooks and Ruth Marcus, 00:15.733 --> 00:17.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% associate editor for The Washington Post. Jonathan Capehart is away. 00:17.533 --> 00:19.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Welcome to you both. Good to see you. 00:19.700 --> 00:23.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I say the word unprecedented so much, I feel it's losing some of its power, 00:23.800 --> 00:28.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% but this week was unprecedented to see the ousting of the sitting House speaker, Kevin McCarthy. 00:30.800 --> 00:34.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% David, let's just start with that and how you're reflecting on what unfolded this week. 00:34.166 --> 00:35.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: Yes, well, there was a precedent, 00:35.866 --> 00:37.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% which was Caligula and the decline and fall of the Roman Empire. 00:37.433 --> 00:39.400 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (LAUGHTER) 00:39.400 --> 00:40.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: It's actually, I would say that -- obviously joking. 00:42.833 --> 00:46.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But, in some sense, Donald Trump introduced a note of narcissistic hucksterism into the 00:48.666 --> 00:52.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% American body politic, and it's been interesting to watch it spread throughout his party. So 00:52.133 --> 00:56.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I would say Vivek Ramaswamy falls into that camp and certainly Matt Gaetz and his crew. 00:56.733 --> 01:01.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% This was not about any substantive thing. This was just pure show business, 01:01.500 --> 01:06.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% pure nihilism. And so you have a group of people for whom this is all nihilistic fun. But then you 01:08.533 --> 01:11.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% see how it spreads. And so, in the middle of all the fight over the speaker, there was a meeting 01:11.066 --> 01:15.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% with the moderate Problem Solvers Caucus, and they were trying to get the Democrats to save McCarthy. 01:15.500 --> 01:19.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And, in the past, there had been talk that -- or had been reported that Nancy Pelosi had told John 01:19.466 --> 01:23.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Boehner when he was speaker she wouldn't destroy the institution. She would stand 01:23.433 --> 01:28.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% behind him. But there's so much distrust even among the moderates, they couldn't come close 01:28.133 --> 01:32.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% to a deal that would have saved McCarthy and would have prevented the meltdown we have seen. 01:32.233 --> 01:37.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% So the rot is here, but it's just spread throughout the institution. It's just fascinating, 01:37.100 --> 01:42.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% morbidly, to watch an institution be torn apart by show business, distrust and hucksterism. 01:43.600 --> 01:45.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% AMNA NAWAZ: How are you looking at it, Ruth? 01:45.100 --> 01:47.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% RUTH MARCUS, Columnist, The Washington Post: Well, you used 01:47.200 --> 01:50.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the word unprecedented. I will give you two more adjectives, cataclysmic and alarming. 01:52.500 --> 01:57.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Last week, David, when you were sitting here, you said it's hard to see a way 01:57.333 --> 02:02.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% out. Last week looks like unicorns and butterflies compared to where we are 02:04.366 --> 02:08.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this week. It is truly hard to see a way out, and it is a truly scary circumstance. 02:10.733 --> 02:13.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We don't have a speaker of the House, and that's just not a ministerial function. 02:13.266 --> 02:18.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% It means that one house of Congress literally cannot function. We actually don't really know 02:20.300 --> 02:23.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% if it can function or not. We do not know that there is a prospect of filling the speakership. 02:25.533 --> 02:27.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Maybe the Republicans will somehow magically get their act together, 02:27.833 --> 02:32.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% unicorns and butterflies. But I talked to people today who were imagining a world in which we 02:34.766 --> 02:38.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% limped through November on this. The word I heard most talking to folks today was chaos. 02:42.200 --> 02:46.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And the underlying issues, the things that brought us to the brink of the shutdown, 02:46.866 --> 02:51.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% still remain, the challenges on funding and the challenges on aid to Ukraine and, 02:53.833 --> 02:58.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% most fundamentally, the kind of absolute distrust and, what was your fantastic word, 03:00.766 --> 03:03.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% nihilism, that we're experiencing, those persist. And all of the imperatives are to keep that going. 03:08.300 --> 03:09.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: Before we look at where we could go next, 03:09.933 --> 03:12.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I do want to talk a little bit about how we got here. 03:12.100 --> 03:17.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So I want you to travel back into ancient political history with me, back to 2010, 03:19.466 --> 03:22.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% when three young Republicans sort of presented themselves as the new generation of conservative 03:22.066 --> 03:27.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% leaders, the so-called young guns, some familiar faces here. Take a look at how they rolled out. 03:28.700 --> 03:32.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% NARRATOR: Young guns, a new generation of conservative leaders. 03:34.866 --> 03:37.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% AMNA NAWAZ: That is Kevin McCarthy, Eric Cantor and Paul Ryan, 03:37.933 --> 03:41.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the latter two of whom are no longer in office. McCarthy was just ousted. 03:41.533 --> 03:43.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% David, how did we get from that to this? 03:43.800 --> 03:45.800 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (LAUGHTER) 03:45.800 --> 03:47.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: Well, so those were innocent days, when we were young and naive. 03:49.866 --> 03:54.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% They were sort of the next generation of Reaganism. And so Paul Ryan was a 03:54.300 --> 03:58.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% very serious policy guy. Eric Cantor was a pretty serious policy guy. Kevin McCarthy was 03:58.433 --> 04:03.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% always more of a politician. But they never updated their philosophies from the 1980s. 04:05.300 --> 04:08.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And even though they were office in 2010, when you said, they -- they never caught up to 04:08.600 --> 04:12.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% where the Republican Party was headed. And Eric Cantor, who was a representative from Virginia, 04:12.800 --> 04:15.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he was shockingly ousted, even though he was in leadership, 04:15.700 --> 04:19.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% very on -- that was one of the very first early signs that this party was shifting. 04:19.900 --> 04:23.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Paul Ryan didn't get the news. And even when he was speaker, 04:23.666 --> 04:27.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% he couldn't survive. And now McCarthy is out. And so I'm reminded of a Republican 04:27.866 --> 04:31.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% senator who told me this about six years ago, that he would go to his 04:31.600 --> 04:35.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% rallies and he'd look out in the crowd and he said: "I don't know any of those people." 04:35.866 --> 04:38.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, a new Republican constituency had come in, 04:38.200 --> 04:41.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and they wanted a completely different party. And those three didn't adjust. 04:41.400 --> 04:45.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: So, Ruth, take a quick look at the three individuals who are the likely 04:45.000 --> 04:48.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% new speakers of the House, two of whom have declared their candidacy already. 04:48.666 --> 04:53.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% That is Steve Scalise and Jim Jordan. Mr. Hern also, we believe, will put his name forward. 04:54.833 --> 04:58.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Can anyone at this point lead this conference? 04:58.800 --> 05:02.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% RUTH MARCUS: That is an unknown question. 05:02.100 --> 05:07.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You could get a vote of a majority of the conference, but, under the current rules, 05:07.033 --> 05:11.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% which are this enormous self-inflicted wound -- they could be changed -- but, 05:11.333 --> 05:16.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% under the current rules, you need to get to 218. You're going to need to get to 05:16.066 --> 05:21.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% 218 under the existing situation with Democrats with only Republican votes. 05:23.066 --> 05:27.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You have this rump group and you have this constant threat of the motion to 05:29.466 --> 05:33.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% vacate on the whim of one or maybe even a dozen -- it was half-a-dozen people. That 05:34.700 --> 05:38.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% means that the party that was once the party of orderly succession, 05:38.466 --> 05:43.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and you pay your dues, and you go up in the hierarchy is just the party of chaos. 05:44.933 --> 05:47.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% If you think about the number of Republican speakers that we have 05:47.733 --> 05:51.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% shuttled through the system there, it's really scary. And 05:51.666 --> 05:56.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% then there's this element of chaos that was introduced today with the helpful, 05:58.600 --> 06:01.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% not, intervention of the former president of the United States on the part of Jim Jordan. 06:03.300 --> 06:04.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: Right. Do you think that makes a difference? 06:04.800 --> 06:08.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% RUTH MARCUS: Well, yes, but I'm not really sure which way. 06:08.033 --> 06:12.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% If you are -- imagine you're one of the Republicans in one of the 18 districts 06:12.633 --> 06:17.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that Joe Biden won. What do you do in this circumstance? Does this make it more likely 06:19.533 --> 06:23.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% for you to vote for Jim Jordan or does it mean that you can't do that because your 06:25.533 --> 06:28.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% constituents are just going to say, you're doing the former guy's, maybe the future guy's, bidding? 06:30.633 --> 06:33.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And so he's just interjected himself, as he's wont to do, into this in a way that I think probably, 06:37.000 --> 06:42.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% because this party is so beholden to him, makes a Speaker Jordan -- I even hesitate to 06:44.000 --> 06:47.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% say those words -- more likely, but also really puts a lot of people in a very bad position. 06:49.533 --> 06:50.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: David, this is not just about politics and the party. There 06:50.933 --> 06:53.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% are real-world impacts, as Ruth mentioned. 06:53.533 --> 06:55.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The bills are not passing through the House at this 06:55.800 --> 06:58.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% moment. What does this mean for Ukraine funding? 06:58.100 --> 07:00.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: Right. 07:00.200 --> 07:03.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, Steve Scalise supports Ukraine funding and Speaker -- our former -- future Speaker 07:03.133 --> 07:08.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jordan does not. And so, to me, that's the big issue here. If Scalise doesn't get it, 07:09.500 --> 07:10.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it's hard to see how Ukraine funding goes through. 07:10.866 --> 07:12.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% The big anomaly... 07:12.566 --> 07:14.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% AMNA NAWAZ: Which is a remarkable thing to say, by the way. 07:14.100 --> 07:16.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: Compared to where we were a year ago, 07:16.166 --> 07:18.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and compared to some of the atrocities that happened this week in Ukraine, it's just.. 07:18.033 --> 07:20.066 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% AMNA NAWAZ: Yes. 07:20.066 --> 07:21.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% RUTH MARCUS: And compared to where the Republican Party has historically been. 07:21.333 --> 07:22.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: Has historically been. 07:22.866 --> 07:24.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But the most amazing thing to me, this is so far not hurting 07:24.600 --> 07:27.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the Republican Party in the polls. What they call the generic ballot, 07:27.900 --> 07:31.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the Republicans are leading. Republicans have a 21-point lead on, who do you trust 07:31.233 --> 07:35.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to handle the economy? The Republicans have a strong lead still on national security. 07:35.400 --> 07:40.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Joe Biden is not doing well in the polls. By 9 percentage points, voters think the Democratic 07:40.066 --> 07:43.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Party is more extreme than the Republican Party. So the Republican Party, weirdly, is in 07:43.733 --> 07:48.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% politically good shape, judging by today's polls, despite a year or two or six or seven of chaos. 07:50.666 --> 07:52.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: I need to ask you both as well about something else we have been 07:52.766 --> 07:55.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% reporting on. You may have seen Laura Barron-Lopez report earlier this week, 07:55.533 --> 08:00.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% as she's been tracking some of the ramping up of violent rhetoric by former President Trump. 08:00.466 --> 08:02.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% In fact, she included this graphic in her report, 08:02.633 --> 08:07.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% just recent remarks that she's been reporting on. Earlier last month, Mr. Trump suggested 08:09.566 --> 08:12.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that General Mark Milley should be executed. He then went on to mock the assault on Paul 08:14.866 --> 08:17.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Pelosi, Nancy Pelosi's husband. He called for shoplifters to be shot on sight late last month. 08:19.900 --> 08:21.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And just a few days ago, he said that migrants are -- quote -- "poisoning 08:21.700 --> 08:25.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the blood of our country," which is echoing the language of white 08:25.466 --> 08:30.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% supremacists and of Adolf Hitler, who often invoked those words. 08:32.066 --> 08:34.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Ruth, it's remarkable to me that I'm even -- I'm repeating some of these words right now, 08:34.866 --> 08:38.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but are we at risk of becoming numb to some of this language? 08:38.233 --> 08:41.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% RUTH MARCUS: I think we have been at risk of that for the last seven years. 08:41.066 --> 08:46.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I think all of us around this table have struggled with the conflict between 08:48.200 --> 08:53.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% giving this man and his odious comments oxygen, which is what he wants, which is what fuels him, 08:56.533 --> 09:01.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and failing to expose them, failing to -- if you are an opinion columnist like we are, 09:03.166 --> 09:07.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% failing to denounce them and therefore allowing them to just percolate. 09:09.900 --> 09:14.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I think we see this now with his persistence in the polls. And he has clearly ramped up 09:16.933 --> 09:21.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the rhetoric. I can't remember whether you mentioned the Mark Milley as well. 09:22.666 --> 09:24.366 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% AMNA NAWAZ: Yes. Yes. 09:24.366 --> 09:26.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% RUTH MARCUS: The poison the blood is the part that really sickens me. 09:26.800 --> 09:31.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And we see right now the justice system trying to grapple with how to keep him under control 09:34.233 --> 09:39.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% as it tries to hold him to account. I think we need to be really careful not to ignore him, 09:41.433 --> 09:44.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% but we need to be really careful not to feed what he wants, either by overreacting or underreacting. 09:47.866 --> 09:49.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I don't have the solution to that. 09:49.400 --> 09:50.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% AMNA NAWAZ: That's a careful balance. 09:50.333 --> 09:52.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% David, how do you view it? 09:52.033 --> 09:54.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: Yes, well, this is the platform for a second term. I mean, 09:54.133 --> 09:57.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% he's talking the way authoritarians talk, like the real hardcore authoritarians talk. 09:57.866 --> 10:02.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so he's got to ramp up the rhetoric continually to keep the crowd pleased. And 10:02.533 --> 10:05.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% then he's got to -- I think he's growing increasingly -- as he's threatened, 10:05.666 --> 10:09.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% increasingly, I don't know if deranged is too strong a word, but off... 10:09.266 --> 10:10.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% RUTH MARCUS: It's a good word. 10:10.466 --> 10:12.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: OK, I will stick with deranged. 10:12.533 --> 10:17.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so I'm -- I don't know how to stop - - how people like us can stop this. 10:19.200 --> 10:20.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% RUTH MARCUS: And there's one other element in there, 10:20.866 --> 10:25.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% which is, he's doing his punching. He's deranged. He loves to do it. 10:27.933 --> 10:31.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% He is -- but he is also trying to force these judges into overreacting and making a mistake. 10:32.966 --> 10:35.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: We expect to see more of that, I think, in the months ahead. 10:35.066 --> 10:37.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Ruth Marcus, David Brooks, thank you so much. Always good to see you both. 10:37.833 --> 10:38.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% RUTH MARCUS: Thank you.