1 00:00:01,933 --> 00:00:04,700 AMNA NAWAZ: It was a historic week in Washington that's reshaping the Republican Party. 2 00:00:04,700 --> 00:00:08,866 To discuss the fallout of Speaker Kevin McCarthy's ouster, we turn now to the 3 00:00:08,866 --> 00:00:13,866 analysis of Brooks and Marcus. That is New York Times columnist David Brooks and Ruth Marcus, 4 00:00:15,733 --> 00:00:17,533 associate editor for The Washington Post. Jonathan Capehart is away. 5 00:00:17,533 --> 00:00:19,700 Welcome to you both. Good to see you. 6 00:00:19,700 --> 00:00:23,800 I say the word unprecedented so much, I feel it's losing some of its power, 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:28,800 but this week was unprecedented to see the ousting of the sitting House speaker, Kevin McCarthy. 8 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,166 David, let's just start with that and how you're reflecting on what unfolded this week. 9 00:00:34,166 --> 00:00:35,866 DAVID BROOKS: Yes, well, there was a precedent, 10 00:00:35,866 --> 00:00:37,433 which was Caligula and the decline and fall of the Roman Empire. 11 00:00:37,433 --> 00:00:39,400 (LAUGHTER) 12 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:40,833 DAVID BROOKS: It's actually, I would say that -- obviously joking. 13 00:00:42,833 --> 00:00:46,633 But, in some sense, Donald Trump introduced a note of narcissistic hucksterism into the 14 00:00:48,666 --> 00:00:52,133 American body politic, and it's been interesting to watch it spread throughout his party. So 15 00:00:52,133 --> 00:00:56,733 I would say Vivek Ramaswamy falls into that camp and certainly Matt Gaetz and his crew. 16 00:00:56,733 --> 00:01:01,500 This was not about any substantive thing. This was just pure show business, 17 00:01:01,500 --> 00:01:06,500 pure nihilism. And so you have a group of people for whom this is all nihilistic fun. But then you 18 00:01:08,533 --> 00:01:11,066 see how it spreads. And so, in the middle of all the fight over the speaker, there was a meeting 19 00:01:11,066 --> 00:01:15,500 with the moderate Problem Solvers Caucus, and they were trying to get the Democrats to save McCarthy. 20 00:01:15,500 --> 00:01:19,466 And, in the past, there had been talk that -- or had been reported that Nancy Pelosi had told John 21 00:01:19,466 --> 00:01:23,433 Boehner when he was speaker she wouldn't destroy the institution. She would stand 22 00:01:23,433 --> 00:01:28,133 behind him. But there's so much distrust even among the moderates, they couldn't come close 23 00:01:28,133 --> 00:01:32,233 to a deal that would have saved McCarthy and would have prevented the meltdown we have seen. 24 00:01:32,233 --> 00:01:37,100 So the rot is here, but it's just spread throughout the institution. It's just fascinating, 25 00:01:37,100 --> 00:01:42,100 morbidly, to watch an institution be torn apart by show business, distrust and hucksterism. 26 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,100 AMNA NAWAZ: How are you looking at it, Ruth? 27 00:01:45,100 --> 00:01:47,200 RUTH MARCUS, Columnist, The Washington Post: Well, you used 28 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,533 the word unprecedented. I will give you two more adjectives, cataclysmic and alarming. 29 00:01:52,500 --> 00:01:57,333 Last week, David, when you were sitting here, you said it's hard to see a way 30 00:01:57,333 --> 00:02:02,300 out. Last week looks like unicorns and butterflies compared to where we are 31 00:02:04,366 --> 00:02:08,733 this week. It is truly hard to see a way out, and it is a truly scary circumstance. 32 00:02:10,733 --> 00:02:13,266 We don't have a speaker of the House, and that's just not a ministerial function. 33 00:02:13,266 --> 00:02:18,233 It means that one house of Congress literally cannot function. We actually don't really know 34 00:02:20,300 --> 00:02:23,933 if it can function or not. We do not know that there is a prospect of filling the speakership. 35 00:02:25,533 --> 00:02:27,833 Maybe the Republicans will somehow magically get their act together, 36 00:02:27,833 --> 00:02:32,833 unicorns and butterflies. But I talked to people today who were imagining a world in which we 37 00:02:34,766 --> 00:02:38,466 limped through November on this. The word I heard most talking to folks today was chaos. 38 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,866 And the underlying issues, the things that brought us to the brink of the shutdown, 39 00:02:46,866 --> 00:02:51,833 still remain, the challenges on funding and the challenges on aid to Ukraine and, 40 00:02:53,833 --> 00:02:58,266 most fundamentally, the kind of absolute distrust and, what was your fantastic word, 41 00:03:00,766 --> 00:03:03,633 nihilism, that we're experiencing, those persist. And all of the imperatives are to keep that going. 42 00:03:08,300 --> 00:03:09,933 AMNA NAWAZ: Before we look at where we could go next, 43 00:03:09,933 --> 00:03:12,100 I do want to talk a little bit about how we got here. 44 00:03:12,100 --> 00:03:17,100 So I want you to travel back into ancient political history with me, back to 2010, 45 00:03:19,466 --> 00:03:22,066 when three young Republicans sort of presented themselves as the new generation of conservative 46 00:03:22,066 --> 00:03:27,066 leaders, the so-called young guns, some familiar faces here. Take a look at how they rolled out. 47 00:03:28,700 --> 00:03:32,400 NARRATOR: Young guns, a new generation of conservative leaders. 48 00:03:34,866 --> 00:03:37,933 AMNA NAWAZ: That is Kevin McCarthy, Eric Cantor and Paul Ryan, 49 00:03:37,933 --> 00:03:41,533 the latter two of whom are no longer in office. McCarthy was just ousted. 50 00:03:41,533 --> 00:03:43,800 David, how did we get from that to this? 51 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:45,800 (LAUGHTER) 52 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,900 DAVID BROOKS: Well, so those were innocent days, when we were young and naive. 53 00:03:49,866 --> 00:03:54,300 They were sort of the next generation of Reaganism. And so Paul Ryan was a 54 00:03:54,300 --> 00:03:58,433 very serious policy guy. Eric Cantor was a pretty serious policy guy. Kevin McCarthy was 55 00:03:58,433 --> 00:04:03,400 always more of a politician. But they never updated their philosophies from the 1980s. 56 00:04:05,300 --> 00:04:08,600 And even though they were office in 2010, when you said, they -- they never caught up to 57 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,800 where the Republican Party was headed. And Eric Cantor, who was a representative from Virginia, 58 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,700 he was shockingly ousted, even though he was in leadership, 59 00:04:15,700 --> 00:04:19,900 very on -- that was one of the very first early signs that this party was shifting. 60 00:04:19,900 --> 00:04:23,666 Paul Ryan didn't get the news. And even when he was speaker, 61 00:04:23,666 --> 00:04:27,866 he couldn't survive. And now McCarthy is out. And so I'm reminded of a Republican 62 00:04:27,866 --> 00:04:31,600 senator who told me this about six years ago, that he would go to his 63 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,866 rallies and he'd look out in the crowd and he said: "I don't know any of those people." 64 00:04:35,866 --> 00:04:38,200 So, a new Republican constituency had come in, 65 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,400 and they wanted a completely different party. And those three didn't adjust. 66 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,000 AMNA NAWAZ: So, Ruth, take a quick look at the three individuals who are the likely 67 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,666 new speakers of the House, two of whom have declared their candidacy already. 68 00:04:48,666 --> 00:04:53,666 That is Steve Scalise and Jim Jordan. Mr. Hern also, we believe, will put his name forward. 69 00:04:54,833 --> 00:04:58,800 Can anyone at this point lead this conference? 70 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,100 RUTH MARCUS: That is an unknown question. 71 00:05:02,100 --> 00:05:07,033 You could get a vote of a majority of the conference, but, under the current rules, 72 00:05:07,033 --> 00:05:11,333 which are this enormous self-inflicted wound -- they could be changed -- but, 73 00:05:11,333 --> 00:05:16,066 under the current rules, you need to get to 218. You're going to need to get to 74 00:05:16,066 --> 00:05:21,066 218 under the existing situation with Democrats with only Republican votes. 75 00:05:23,066 --> 00:05:27,433 You have this rump group and you have this constant threat of the motion to 76 00:05:29,466 --> 00:05:33,133 vacate on the whim of one or maybe even a dozen -- it was half-a-dozen people. That 77 00:05:34,700 --> 00:05:38,466 means that the party that was once the party of orderly succession, 78 00:05:38,466 --> 00:05:43,466 and you pay your dues, and you go up in the hierarchy is just the party of chaos. 79 00:05:44,933 --> 00:05:47,733 If you think about the number of Republican speakers that we have 80 00:05:47,733 --> 00:05:51,666 shuttled through the system there, it's really scary. And 81 00:05:51,666 --> 00:05:56,666 then there's this element of chaos that was introduced today with the helpful, 82 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,900 not, intervention of the former president of the United States on the part of Jim Jordan. 83 00:06:03,300 --> 00:06:04,800 AMNA NAWAZ: Right. Do you think that makes a difference? 84 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,033 RUTH MARCUS: Well, yes, but I'm not really sure which way. 85 00:06:08,033 --> 00:06:12,633 If you are -- imagine you're one of the Republicans in one of the 18 districts 86 00:06:12,633 --> 00:06:17,633 that Joe Biden won. What do you do in this circumstance? Does this make it more likely 87 00:06:19,533 --> 00:06:23,100 for you to vote for Jim Jordan or does it mean that you can't do that because your 88 00:06:25,533 --> 00:06:28,233 constituents are just going to say, you're doing the former guy's, maybe the future guy's, bidding? 89 00:06:30,633 --> 00:06:33,500 And so he's just interjected himself, as he's wont to do, into this in a way that I think probably, 90 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:42,000 because this party is so beholden to him, makes a Speaker Jordan -- I even hesitate to 91 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,600 say those words -- more likely, but also really puts a lot of people in a very bad position. 92 00:06:49,533 --> 00:06:50,933 AMNA NAWAZ: David, this is not just about politics and the party. There 93 00:06:50,933 --> 00:06:53,533 are real-world impacts, as Ruth mentioned. 94 00:06:53,533 --> 00:06:55,800 The bills are not passing through the House at this 95 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,100 moment. What does this mean for Ukraine funding? 96 00:06:58,100 --> 00:07:00,200 DAVID BROOKS: Right. 97 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,133 So, Steve Scalise supports Ukraine funding and Speaker -- our former -- future Speaker 98 00:07:03,133 --> 00:07:08,133 Jordan does not. And so, to me, that's the big issue here. If Scalise doesn't get it, 99 00:07:09,500 --> 00:07:10,866 it's hard to see how Ukraine funding goes through. 100 00:07:10,866 --> 00:07:12,566 The big anomaly... 101 00:07:12,566 --> 00:07:14,100 AMNA NAWAZ: Which is a remarkable thing to say, by the way. 102 00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:16,166 DAVID BROOKS: Compared to where we were a year ago, 103 00:07:16,166 --> 00:07:18,033 and compared to some of the atrocities that happened this week in Ukraine, it's just.. 104 00:07:18,033 --> 00:07:20,066 AMNA NAWAZ: Yes. 105 00:07:20,066 --> 00:07:21,333 RUTH MARCUS: And compared to where the Republican Party has historically been. 106 00:07:21,333 --> 00:07:22,866 DAVID BROOKS: Has historically been. 107 00:07:22,866 --> 00:07:24,600 But the most amazing thing to me, this is so far not hurting 108 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,900 the Republican Party in the polls. What they call the generic ballot, 109 00:07:27,900 --> 00:07:31,233 the Republicans are leading. Republicans have a 21-point lead on, who do you trust 110 00:07:31,233 --> 00:07:35,400 to handle the economy? The Republicans have a strong lead still on national security. 111 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:40,066 Joe Biden is not doing well in the polls. By 9 percentage points, voters think the Democratic 112 00:07:40,066 --> 00:07:43,733 Party is more extreme than the Republican Party. So the Republican Party, weirdly, is in 113 00:07:43,733 --> 00:07:48,733 politically good shape, judging by today's polls, despite a year or two or six or seven of chaos. 114 00:07:50,666 --> 00:07:52,766 AMNA NAWAZ: I need to ask you both as well about something else we have been 115 00:07:52,766 --> 00:07:55,533 reporting on. You may have seen Laura Barron-Lopez report earlier this week, 116 00:07:55,533 --> 00:08:00,466 as she's been tracking some of the ramping up of violent rhetoric by former President Trump. 117 00:08:00,466 --> 00:08:02,633 In fact, she included this graphic in her report, 118 00:08:02,633 --> 00:08:07,633 just recent remarks that she's been reporting on. Earlier last month, Mr. Trump suggested 119 00:08:09,566 --> 00:08:12,833 that General Mark Milley should be executed. He then went on to mock the assault on Paul 120 00:08:14,866 --> 00:08:17,933 Pelosi, Nancy Pelosi's husband. He called for shoplifters to be shot on sight late last month. 121 00:08:19,900 --> 00:08:21,700 And just a few days ago, he said that migrants are -- quote -- "poisoning 122 00:08:21,700 --> 00:08:25,466 the blood of our country," which is echoing the language of white 123 00:08:25,466 --> 00:08:30,033 supremacists and of Adolf Hitler, who often invoked those words. 124 00:08:32,066 --> 00:08:34,866 Ruth, it's remarkable to me that I'm even -- I'm repeating some of these words right now, 125 00:08:34,866 --> 00:08:38,233 but are we at risk of becoming numb to some of this language? 126 00:08:38,233 --> 00:08:41,066 RUTH MARCUS: I think we have been at risk of that for the last seven years. 127 00:08:41,066 --> 00:08:46,066 And I think all of us around this table have struggled with the conflict between 128 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:53,000 giving this man and his odious comments oxygen, which is what he wants, which is what fuels him, 129 00:08:56,533 --> 00:09:01,533 and failing to expose them, failing to -- if you are an opinion columnist like we are, 130 00:09:03,166 --> 00:09:07,900 failing to denounce them and therefore allowing them to just percolate. 131 00:09:09,900 --> 00:09:14,333 I think we see this now with his persistence in the polls. And he has clearly ramped up 132 00:09:16,933 --> 00:09:21,933 the rhetoric. I can't remember whether you mentioned the Mark Milley as well. 133 00:09:22,666 --> 00:09:24,366 AMNA NAWAZ: Yes. Yes. 134 00:09:24,366 --> 00:09:26,800 RUTH MARCUS: The poison the blood is the part that really sickens me. 135 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,800 And we see right now the justice system trying to grapple with how to keep him under control 136 00:09:34,233 --> 00:09:39,133 as it tries to hold him to account. I think we need to be really careful not to ignore him, 137 00:09:41,433 --> 00:09:44,700 but we need to be really careful not to feed what he wants, either by overreacting or underreacting. 138 00:09:47,866 --> 00:09:49,400 And I don't have the solution to that. 139 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:50,333 AMNA NAWAZ: That's a careful balance. 140 00:09:50,333 --> 00:09:52,033 David, how do you view it? 141 00:09:52,033 --> 00:09:54,133 DAVID BROOKS: Yes, well, this is the platform for a second term. I mean, 142 00:09:54,133 --> 00:09:57,866 he's talking the way authoritarians talk, like the real hardcore authoritarians talk. 143 00:09:57,866 --> 00:10:02,533 And so he's got to ramp up the rhetoric continually to keep the crowd pleased. And 144 00:10:02,533 --> 00:10:05,666 then he's got to -- I think he's growing increasingly -- as he's threatened, 145 00:10:05,666 --> 00:10:09,266 increasingly, I don't know if deranged is too strong a word, but off... 146 00:10:09,266 --> 00:10:10,466 RUTH MARCUS: It's a good word. 147 00:10:10,466 --> 00:10:12,533 DAVID BROOKS: OK, I will stick with deranged. 148 00:10:12,533 --> 00:10:17,266 And so I'm -- I don't know how to stop - - how people like us can stop this. 149 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:20,866 RUTH MARCUS: And there's one other element in there, 150 00:10:20,866 --> 00:10:25,866 which is, he's doing his punching. He's deranged. He loves to do it. 151 00:10:27,933 --> 00:10:31,033 He is -- but he is also trying to force these judges into overreacting and making a mistake. 152 00:10:32,966 --> 00:10:35,066 AMNA NAWAZ: We expect to see more of that, I think, in the months ahead. 153 00:10:35,066 --> 00:10:37,833 Ruth Marcus, David Brooks, thank you so much. Always good to see you both. 154 00:10:37,833 --> 00:10:38,633 RUTH MARCUS: Thank you.