1 00:00:01,933 --> 00:00:04,000 JUDY WOODRUFF: As we have been reporting, there are a number of questions today about 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:08,366 President Trump, how he stoked the mob at the Capitol, and whether he's a danger while 3 00:00:09,233 --> 00:00:11,300 he continues to hold power. 4 00:00:11,300 --> 00:00:15,566 Amna Nawaz now talks to a man who held a key role in the Trump administration on how he 5 00:00:16,700 --> 00:00:19,066 sees this moment and the road ahead -- Amna. 6 00:00:19,066 --> 00:00:21,566 AMNA NAWAZ: That's right, Judy. 7 00:00:21,566 --> 00:00:25,933 For seven months, Kevin McAleenan served in President Trump's Cabinet as acting secretary 8 00:00:27,900 --> 00:00:31,033 of homeland security. He resigned from that post in October of 2019, is now the CEO of 9 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:33,600 Pangiam, a travel technology company. 10 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:35,700 And he joins me now. 11 00:00:35,700 --> 00:00:38,666 Secretary McAleenan, welcome back to the "NewsHour." And thank you for making the time. 12 00:00:38,666 --> 00:00:43,100 Let's start with the events that we have been reporting on and the world was watching yesterday. 13 00:00:43,100 --> 00:00:47,500 As you were watching that unfold, rioters storm the capital, what was your reaction? 14 00:00:47,500 --> 00:00:50,566 KEVIN MCALEENAN, Former Acting U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security: Well, I think I found, 15 00:00:50,566 --> 00:00:55,533 like most Americans, the situation just incredibly appalling, shocking, disgusting, to see an 16 00:00:58,066 --> 00:01:01,866 organized mob assault on one of our most central and core democratic processes, and temporarily 17 00:01:03,366 --> 00:01:05,633 successful assault. 18 00:01:05,633 --> 00:01:08,433 Just very difficult, very hard to watch. 19 00:01:08,433 --> 00:01:13,033 At the same time, we -- I think we also should note that we saw our institutions hold. We 20 00:01:13,033 --> 00:01:18,033 saw our congressional leaders return to the Capitol to complete the process, to do their 21 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,666 jobs throughout the night, and to count the votes and to certify the election victory 22 00:01:25,333 --> 00:01:28,133 of president-elect Joe Biden and vice president-elect Kamala Harris. 23 00:01:28,133 --> 00:01:32,100 So, I think it's very important to see the whole scope of the day. 24 00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:36,033 AMNA NAWAZ: When you look at what happened and how quickly it happened and how easily, 25 00:01:36,033 --> 00:01:39,933 we saw from outside, those protesters breach the barriers, make their way up the Capitol, 26 00:01:39,933 --> 00:01:44,166 a lot of people are wondering, where's the law enforcement? Where are the federal forces? 27 00:01:44,166 --> 00:01:46,733 Where is DHS? 28 00:01:46,733 --> 00:01:49,333 We knew that people would be descending on the Capitol. We heard the words that the president 29 00:01:49,333 --> 00:01:53,366 had been delivering to them. Shouldn't there have been a more robust force there to meet 30 00:01:53,366 --> 00:01:55,933 that threat? 31 00:01:55,933 --> 00:01:58,600 KEVIN MCALEENAN: Yes, I think there are really important questions raised in the last segment. 32 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,333 I think Leader McConnell's point about a painstaking investigation on the institutional and planning 33 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:06,866 - - I want to focus on that word, the planning failure. 34 00:02:06,866 --> 00:02:11,633 This is a really complicated jurisdictional environment for law enforcement in D.C., but 35 00:02:13,533 --> 00:02:17,000 it's also one where we see incredible crowds, protests, marches, inauguration, State of 36 00:02:18,433 --> 00:02:23,366 the Union, happen with security and very smoothly every year. 37 00:02:25,833 --> 00:02:28,600 And that's due to great planning, due to leadership, one agency put in charge, and then coordination, 38 00:02:31,133 --> 00:02:33,933 so you have the support and the backup forces, a civil disturbance unit on call, a rapid-reaction 39 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:36,600 force. 40 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,500 What I saw yesterday was, those elements were not in place. There had to be a failure of 41 00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:45,500 intelligence in terms of predicting that that group was going to be that size, and it was 42 00:02:47,500 --> 00:02:49,666 going to head toward the Capitol. But it was a very determined group that attacked the 43 00:02:49,666 --> 00:02:53,066 Capitol from all sides, an incredibly challenging law enforcement situation. 44 00:02:53,066 --> 00:02:55,200 I mean, we should not lose sight of... 45 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,833 AMNA NAWAZ: But, Mr. Secretary, let me ask. Pardon the interruption. 46 00:02:57,833 --> 00:03:00,500 Let me just ask you. When you talk about intelligence, what more intelligence do you think is necessary? 47 00:03:00,500 --> 00:03:04,500 These are groups who were talking about a revolution on social media for weeks. You 48 00:03:04,500 --> 00:03:08,700 have seen previous protesters who followed the president's words and attacked statehouses 49 00:03:08,700 --> 00:03:10,933 during the lockdown in the pandemic. 50 00:03:10,933 --> 00:03:14,533 Why shouldn't federal officials have expected that it would go the way it did? 51 00:03:14,533 --> 00:03:17,433 KEVIN MCALEENAN: Yes, so my understanding from talking to former colleagues is, they 52 00:03:17,433 --> 00:03:22,433 were prepared for violence, violence between either the protesters who became rioters and 53 00:03:24,433 --> 00:03:28,533 counterprotesters, perhaps, throughout the city, as we have seen in prior weekends recently 54 00:03:30,100 --> 00:03:33,066 in Washington, D.C., but not that organized approach on the Capitol. 55 00:03:33,066 --> 00:03:37,666 Should they have predicted that? Probably. And I agree with you that you have to look 56 00:03:37,666 --> 00:03:42,666 at the sources of organization online, what the groups are talking about. And some of 57 00:03:44,533 --> 00:03:47,666 that rhetoric was very dangerous approaching this political rally that became a riot. 58 00:03:47,666 --> 00:03:49,666 AMNA NAWAZ: You mentioned the rhetoric. 59 00:03:49,666 --> 00:03:52,200 Do you think that President Trump is responsible for what happened yesterday? 60 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:57,200 KEVIN MCALEENAN: I think that his rhetoric created a dangerous situation, inviting that 61 00:03:59,133 --> 00:04:03,200 group to D.C., talking about going down to the Capitol. 62 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:08,200 We have seen that in the past, where presidential words matter. We have heard leaders, president-elect 63 00:04:10,066 --> 00:04:13,300 Biden, commentators of both parties, talk about the importance of communication from 64 00:04:13,300 --> 00:04:17,166 that White House on what's acceptable and what's not. 65 00:04:17,166 --> 00:04:22,166 And, yes, after the fact, we have heard calls that violence is never acceptable by any protest 66 00:04:24,100 --> 00:04:27,066 movement exercising First Amendment rights. But when it becomes a riot, when it becomes 67 00:04:27,066 --> 00:04:30,733 an assault on a democratic process, it's obviously unacceptable. 68 00:04:30,733 --> 00:04:35,733 And I'm afraid rhetoric helped inspire it and create the circumstances that it arose 69 00:04:37,533 --> 00:04:39,600 from. 70 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,233 AMNA NAWAZ: But, if his words matter, if they inspired a riot, if it's an attack on our 71 00:04:42,233 --> 00:04:46,066 democratic process, is the president fit to serve? Do you think that his Cabinet should 72 00:04:46,066 --> 00:04:48,166 be taking steps to remove him? 73 00:04:48,166 --> 00:04:52,633 KEVIN MCALEENAN: Well, I think the Constitution has processes defined for that in the 25th 74 00:04:54,566 --> 00:04:57,200 Amendment. There's significant reporting, including on your show this evening, that 75 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,066 Cabinet members are actively considering that, in conversations with the Hill. 76 00:05:01,066 --> 00:05:02,766 But I think the ultimate verdict was issued... 77 00:05:02,766 --> 00:05:04,766 AMNA NAWAZ: And do you think they should move forward with that? 78 00:05:04,766 --> 00:05:07,100 KEVIN MCALEENAN: Well, the ultimate verdict was issued by the American people in November. 79 00:05:07,100 --> 00:05:12,100 And it's less than 13 days away from being realized, and the transition now certain, 80 00:05:13,533 --> 00:05:16,033 with the votes counted, to president-elect Biden. 81 00:05:16,033 --> 00:05:20,066 But I think the people in the chairs are best suited to make that decision based on the 82 00:05:20,066 --> 00:05:22,133 facts presented to them. 83 00:05:22,133 --> 00:05:25,966 AMNA NAWAZ: I have to ask you. You have been very quiet since you have left. You haven't 84 00:05:25,966 --> 00:05:28,066 spoken out very often. 85 00:05:28,066 --> 00:05:31,666 And during your tenure, the president often said things or tweeted things or took actions 86 00:05:31,666 --> 00:05:35,600 that a lot of people said, why aren't people close to him speaking out? 87 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,033 Why are you speaking out right now? 88 00:05:38,033 --> 00:05:42,433 KEVIN MCALEENAN: I'm talking about these incidents because I think an assault on our democracy 89 00:05:43,300 --> 00:05:45,466 is simply beyond the pale. 90 00:05:45,466 --> 00:05:50,466 As a career official coming up through the ranks, surprised to be offered a political 91 00:05:52,500 --> 00:05:56,333 appointment to lead an agency that I treasured at CBP and then at Department of Homeland 92 00:05:58,333 --> 00:06:01,600 Security, to solve a crisis at the time, I was -- I was a civil servant. I considered 93 00:06:03,933 --> 00:06:05,900 that you have to support and defend the Constitution. If you're asked to serve and you have the 94 00:06:05,900 --> 00:06:07,900 ability to do so, you should try. 95 00:06:07,900 --> 00:06:12,733 And I wrestled with speaking out before and after I departed. I did resign due to concerns 96 00:06:14,766 --> 00:06:18,766 about the politicization of law enforcement and the dangers that presented to our institutions. 97 00:06:18,766 --> 00:06:21,866 I made that decision 15 months ago. 98 00:06:21,866 --> 00:06:26,866 But it's difficult now, seeing the potential long-term impact of a situation like yesterday, 99 00:06:28,866 --> 00:06:33,700 to not come out and state how unacceptable it is and that there must be accountability 100 00:06:34,433 --> 00:06:36,400 across the board. 101 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,100 AMNA NAWAZ: That is former acting Secretary of Homeland Security Kevin McAleenan joining 102 00:06:40,700 --> 00:06:41,566 us tonight. 103 00:06:41,566 --> 00:06:42,566 Thank you for your time. 104 00:06:42,566 --> 00:06:43,433 KEVIN MCALEENAN: Thank you.