1 00:00:02,066 --> 00:00:04,733 HARI SREENIVASAN: Now to a man often at the center of controversy in the Trump White House, 2 00:00:04,733 --> 00:00:09,133 whose outsized influence is often discussed, yet he is rarely heard from. 3 00:00:09,133 --> 00:00:11,633 Our John Yang is here to help fill in the picture. 4 00:00:11,633 --> 00:00:16,633 JOHN YANG: Hari, earlier today, I spoke with a journalist who got an unexpected phone call 5 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,700 from Stephen Bannon, President Trump's embattled chief strategist. 6 00:00:21,700 --> 00:00:26,700 Robert Kuttner is the co-founder and co-editor of "The American Prospect," a liberal magazine. 7 00:00:28,133 --> 00:00:30,666 He's also a professor of social policy at Brandeis University. 8 00:00:30,666 --> 00:00:35,433 We were also joined by Joshua Green, a senior national correspondent for Bloomberg Businessweek 9 00:00:35,433 --> 00:00:40,433 and author of the bestselling book "Devil's Bargain: Steve Bannon, Donald Trump, and the 10 00:00:41,333 --> 00:00:43,466 Storming of the Presidency." 11 00:00:43,466 --> 00:00:46,466 I began by asking Kuttner about how his conversation with Bannon came about. 12 00:00:46,466 --> 00:00:50,166 ROBERT KUTTNER, Co-Founder, "The American Prospect": Well, I got an e-mail from someone 13 00:00:50,166 --> 00:00:55,166 at the White House who says that Mr. Bannon would like me to come into the White House 14 00:00:55,933 --> 00:00:57,966 and meet with him. 15 00:00:57,966 --> 00:01:01,133 So, I double-checked the e-mail address, which looked legit, and I called the guy, and he 16 00:01:01,133 --> 00:01:03,100 seemed legit. 17 00:01:03,100 --> 00:01:08,000 And I said, look, I'm on vacation, but this is kind of a fast-moving story, so I would 18 00:01:09,433 --> 00:01:11,533 be happy to speak with him by phone, if he would like to. 19 00:01:11,533 --> 00:01:15,366 And what had happened was, he had read a column I had written the day before basically making 20 00:01:15,366 --> 00:01:20,366 the point that, because we have been so passive in taking on illegal Chinese trade practices, 21 00:01:22,466 --> 00:01:27,333 that Beijing now has a huge amount of leverage over us, where we want them to help us with 22 00:01:27,333 --> 00:01:32,233 North Korea, but the price for that is we have got to fold our hand in terms of taking 23 00:01:32,233 --> 00:01:34,300 a hard line with them on trade. 24 00:01:34,300 --> 00:01:38,833 So, Bannon apparently read that and felt he had a soul mate, ]and didn't take the precaution 25 00:01:41,466 --> 00:01:46,466 of making clear whether we were on background or on the record, and called me up and sounded 26 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,433 as if we were soul mates and best friends. 27 00:01:51,433 --> 00:01:56,433 And it was like I was part of a private strategy session with Stephen Bannon, which was really 28 00:01:58,566 --> 00:02:00,666 quite bizarre. 29 00:02:00,666 --> 00:02:05,033 And about two or three minutes in, I said to myself, oh, wow, he is not putting this 30 00:02:05,033 --> 00:02:06,766 off the record. 31 00:02:06,766 --> 00:02:08,766 And I'm certainly not going to mention it if he doesn't mention it. 32 00:02:08,766 --> 00:02:13,233 And, of course, the ground rules are that when a government official calls you and doesn't 33 00:02:13,233 --> 00:02:16,933 say whether it's off the record or on the record, the default setting is that it's on 34 00:02:16,933 --> 00:02:18,966 the record. 35 00:02:18,966 --> 00:02:22,466 And so, 25 minutes later, I have this astonishing interview, which I recorded. 36 00:02:22,466 --> 00:02:25,700 JOHN YANG: And this was the first time you had ever talked to him? 37 00:02:25,700 --> 00:02:27,700 ROBERT KUTTNER: Absolutely. 38 00:02:27,700 --> 00:02:30,300 And he made it sound like he'd been reading my stuff for years and thought it was great, 39 00:02:30,300 --> 00:02:32,500 you know, the usual kind of flattery stuff. 40 00:02:32,500 --> 00:02:36,800 JOHN YANG: Josh Green, this is Mr. Kuttner's first time talking to Steve Bannon. 41 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,533 You have been talking to him on and off since 2011, I think. 42 00:02:40,533 --> 00:02:42,800 How does this ring true to you? 43 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:44,300 Does this ring true to you? 44 00:02:44,300 --> 00:02:46,366 JOSHUA GREEN, Bloomberg Businessweek: Absolutely. 45 00:02:46,366 --> 00:02:48,866 In fact, my introduction to Steve Bannon was much the same as Bob Kuttner's. 46 00:02:48,866 --> 00:02:51,000 I had written an article about Sarah Palin. 47 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,533 And, all of a sudden, one day, out of the blue, I get a phone call from a staffer, saying, 48 00:02:57,633 --> 00:03:00,666 I represent a guy named Steve Bannon, who at the time was a conservative filmmaker infatuated 49 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,433 with Sarah Palin. 50 00:03:03,433 --> 00:03:06,366 He said, Mr. Bannon read your latest article and he would really like to get together and 51 00:03:06,366 --> 00:03:07,833 talk with you. 52 00:03:07,833 --> 00:03:10,833 In this case, it was at a movie screening for Bannon's film. 53 00:03:10,833 --> 00:03:12,900 And I met him. 54 00:03:12,900 --> 00:03:16,833 And he's a very interesting, smart, charismatic guy who had a distinct brand of politics that 55 00:03:19,166 --> 00:03:21,600 I thought was interesting and worth writing about. 56 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,033 And so I got to know him and basically have been interviewing him ever since. 57 00:03:25,033 --> 00:03:27,700 JOHN YANG: Bob, you mentioned two bits that he talked about. 58 00:03:27,700 --> 00:03:32,266 He talked about contradicting the president's strategy on North Korea. 59 00:03:32,266 --> 00:03:36,033 He said, "Until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that 10 million 60 00:03:36,033 --> 00:03:41,000 people in Seoul don't die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons, I don't 61 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:42,466 know what you're talking about. 62 00:03:42,466 --> 00:03:44,633 There's no military solution here. 63 00:03:44,633 --> 00:03:46,066 They got us." 64 00:03:46,066 --> 00:03:48,100 What was your reaction when you heard that? 65 00:03:48,100 --> 00:03:52,000 ROBERT KUTTNER: Well, I thought he was right on the merits, but the first thing I noticed 66 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,900 was that this was not exactly the administration's view, certainly not Donald Trump's view.. 67 00:03:56,900 --> 00:04:01,900 So, I said to myself, huh, he's being rather incautious and he shows no felt need to defend 68 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,333 his president, and he's just speaking his mind. 69 00:04:07,333 --> 00:04:09,833 And it certainly is not the president's view. 70 00:04:09,833 --> 00:04:13,000 JOHN YANG: He also talked about what he called ethno-nationalism. 71 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:14,133 He called them losers. 72 00:04:14,133 --> 00:04:16,200 "It's a fringe element. 73 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:20,200 I think the media plays it up too much and we have got to help crush it, help crush it 74 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:21,366 more. 75 00:04:21,366 --> 00:04:23,533 These guys are a collection of clowns." 76 00:04:23,533 --> 00:04:28,000 ROBERT KUTTNER: That was completely disingenuous, because, of course, he, as much as anybody 77 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:33,000 else in America, is responsible for assembling this collection of clowns as a political force. 78 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,100 And people like Bannon and like Trump, they say what they need to say, and if they contradict 79 00:04:41,133 --> 00:04:44,866 themselves today relative to what they said yesterday, well, that's how you do it. 80 00:04:46,866 --> 00:04:50,433 And if he's trying to ingratiate himself with somebody who's an editor of a liberal magazine, 81 00:04:52,433 --> 00:04:54,400 "The American Prospect," he's going to say what he needs to say to try and persuade me 82 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,833 that he's not such a bad guy. 83 00:04:56,833 --> 00:04:59,400 But you have to take that with a ton of salt. 84 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:04,400 And I think it's the usual dog-whistle stuff, where the alt-right is not going to think 85 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:10,500 that Steve Bannon somehow has had a deathbed conversion and he now thinks they're bad guys. 86 00:05:10,500 --> 00:05:13,666 JOHN YANG: Josh, what do you think was going on here when he said those things? 87 00:05:13,666 --> 00:05:18,366 JOSHUA GREEN: I think that he was trying to impress a credentialed journalist and somebody 88 00:05:18,366 --> 00:05:20,400 he admires. 89 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,033 He and I -- Bannon and I had similar conversations in the research for my book. 90 00:05:24,033 --> 00:05:27,533 And I asked him, because he's often charged with anti-Semitism and white nationalism. 91 00:05:27,533 --> 00:05:31,800 I said, well, if you don't believe this stuff, why is it that you make common cause with 92 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:33,900 these guys? 93 00:05:33,900 --> 00:05:37,800 And his answer was that, while the types of you see marching in Charlottesville are -- he 94 00:05:40,333 --> 00:05:44,866 called them freaks and goobers to me, he called them clowns to Bob -- were individually ridiculous 95 00:05:48,333 --> 00:05:53,333 people, collectively, they represented a political force that he thought he could script into 96 00:05:55,466 --> 00:06:00,500 his larger America-first nationalism, into Trumpian politics, and use them, essentially 97 00:06:03,133 --> 00:06:08,133 manipulate them as tools to carry out his political goals. 98 00:06:08,733 --> 00:06:10,666 (CROSSTALK) 99 00:06:10,666 --> 00:06:13,200 JOHN YANG: Bob, he ended the conversation with you by saying that he was -- wanted to 100 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:18,000 see you at the White House after Labor Day to continue discussion of China and trade. 101 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,033 Do you think that's going to happen, Bob? 102 00:06:20,033 --> 00:06:24,433 ROBERT KUTTNER: You know, I think, as long as Donald Trump is doubling down on the alliance 103 00:06:27,900 --> 00:06:32,900 with the far right, Bannon's job may be safe, because he needs Bannon to guide him through 104 00:06:35,533 --> 00:06:37,566 that strategy. 105 00:06:37,566 --> 00:06:41,633 So, I am certainly not going to predict whether Bannon's job is safe, but I think the point 106 00:06:43,633 --> 00:06:46,100 is, a lot of other people in the White House may be furious at Bannon, but there's only 107 00:06:46,100 --> 00:06:47,100 one person who counts. 108 00:06:47,100 --> 00:06:48,200 And that's Donald Trump. 109 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,233 JOSHUA GREEN: I agree. 110 00:06:50,233 --> 00:06:54,200 And if you listen to what Donald Trump had said in the wake of the Charlottesville attack, 111 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,500 it has been precisely the sort of thing that Bannon says and believes, even though it's 112 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,666 something that is galling to Republican elected officials, to ordinary Americans, to many 113 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:13,100 advisers within Trump's own White House who are leaking to reporters their dismay and 114 00:07:13,100 --> 00:07:18,100 disgust, but don't have the courage to come out and say it publicly or do what they ought 115 00:07:20,100 --> 00:07:24,233 to do and resign from their position in the White House, if they don't agree with what 116 00:07:24,233 --> 00:07:26,300 Donald Trump is saying. 117 00:07:26,300 --> 00:07:29,733 JOHN YANG: Joshua Green, Robert Kuttner, you both have fascinating insights into this guy 118 00:07:29,733 --> 00:07:30,933 Steve Bannon. 119 00:07:30,933 --> 00:07:31,733 Thank you very much for joining us. 120 00:07:31,733 --> 00:07:32,733 JOSHUA GREEN: Thank you. 121 00:07:32,733 --> 00:07:32,866 ROBERT KUTTNER: Thank you.