WEBVTT 00:02.066 --> 00:04.733 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% HARI SREENIVASAN: Now to a man often at the center of controversy in the Trump White House, 00:04.733 --> 00:09.133 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% whose outsized influence is often discussed, yet he is rarely heard from. 00:09.133 --> 00:11.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Our John Yang is here to help fill in the picture. 00:11.633 --> 00:16.633 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JOHN YANG: Hari, earlier today, I spoke with a journalist who got an unexpected phone call 00:18.400 --> 00:21.700 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% from Stephen Bannon, President Trump's embattled chief strategist. 00:21.700 --> 00:26.700 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Robert Kuttner is the co-founder and co-editor of "The American Prospect," a liberal magazine. 00:28.133 --> 00:30.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% He's also a professor of social policy at Brandeis University. 00:30.666 --> 00:35.433 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% We were also joined by Joshua Green, a senior national correspondent for Bloomberg Businessweek 00:35.433 --> 00:40.433 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% and author of the bestselling book "Devil's Bargain: Steve Bannon, Donald Trump, and the 00:41.333 --> 00:43.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Storming of the Presidency." 00:43.466 --> 00:46.466 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% I began by asking Kuttner about how his conversation with Bannon came about. 00:46.466 --> 00:50.166 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% ROBERT KUTTNER, Co-Founder, "The American Prospect": Well, I got an e-mail from someone 00:50.166 --> 00:55.166 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% at the White House who says that Mr. Bannon would like me to come into the White House 00:55.933 --> 00:57.966 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and meet with him. 00:57.966 --> 01:01.133 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% So, I double-checked the e-mail address, which looked legit, and I called the guy, and he 01:01.133 --> 01:03.100 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% seemed legit. 01:03.100 --> 01:08.000 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And I said, look, I'm on vacation, but this is kind of a fast-moving story, so I would 01:09.433 --> 01:11.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% be happy to speak with him by phone, if he would like to. 01:11.533 --> 01:15.366 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And what had happened was, he had read a column I had written the day before basically making 01:15.366 --> 01:20.366 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% the point that, because we have been so passive in taking on illegal Chinese trade practices, 01:22.466 --> 01:27.333 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% that Beijing now has a huge amount of leverage over us, where we want them to help us with 01:27.333 --> 01:32.233 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% North Korea, but the price for that is we have got to fold our hand in terms of taking 01:32.233 --> 01:34.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% a hard line with them on trade. 01:34.300 --> 01:38.833 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% So, Bannon apparently read that and felt he had a soul mate, ]and didn't take the precaution 01:41.466 --> 01:46.466 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% of making clear whether we were on background or on the record, and called me up and sounded 01:48.800 --> 01:51.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% as if we were soul mates and best friends. 01:51.433 --> 01:56.433 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And it was like I was part of a private strategy session with Stephen Bannon, which was really 01:58.566 --> 02:00.666 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% quite bizarre. 02:00.666 --> 02:05.033 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And about two or three minutes in, I said to myself, oh, wow, he is not putting this 02:05.033 --> 02:06.766 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% off the record. 02:06.766 --> 02:08.766 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% And I'm certainly not going to mention it if he doesn't mention it. 02:08.766 --> 02:13.233 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And, of course, the ground rules are that when a government official calls you and doesn't 02:13.233 --> 02:16.933 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% say whether it's off the record or on the record, the default setting is that it's on 02:16.933 --> 02:18.966 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% the record. 02:18.966 --> 02:22.466 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And so, 25 minutes later, I have this astonishing interview, which I recorded. 02:22.466 --> 02:25.700 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% JOHN YANG: And this was the first time you had ever talked to him? 02:25.700 --> 02:27.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% ROBERT KUTTNER: Absolutely. 02:27.700 --> 02:30.300 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And he made it sound like he'd been reading my stuff for years and thought it was great, 02:30.300 --> 02:32.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% you know, the usual kind of flattery stuff. 02:32.500 --> 02:36.800 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JOHN YANG: Josh Green, this is Mr. Kuttner's first time talking to Steve Bannon. 02:36.800 --> 02:40.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% You have been talking to him on and off since 2011, I think. 02:40.533 --> 02:42.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% How does this ring true to you? 02:42.800 --> 02:44.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Does this ring true to you? 02:44.300 --> 02:46.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% JOSHUA GREEN, Bloomberg Businessweek: Absolutely. 02:46.366 --> 02:48.866 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% In fact, my introduction to Steve Bannon was much the same as Bob Kuttner's. 02:48.866 --> 02:51.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I had written an article about Sarah Palin. 02:51.000 --> 02:55.533 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And, all of a sudden, one day, out of the blue, I get a phone call from a staffer, saying, 02:57.633 --> 03:00.666 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% I represent a guy named Steve Bannon, who at the time was a conservative filmmaker infatuated 03:01.400 --> 03:03.433 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% with Sarah Palin. 03:03.433 --> 03:06.366 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% He said, Mr. Bannon read your latest article and he would really like to get together and 03:06.366 --> 03:07.833 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% talk with you. 03:07.833 --> 03:10.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% In this case, it was at a movie screening for Bannon's film. 03:10.833 --> 03:12.900 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% And I met him. 03:12.900 --> 03:16.833 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And he's a very interesting, smart, charismatic guy who had a distinct brand of politics that 03:19.166 --> 03:21.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I thought was interesting and worth writing about. 03:21.600 --> 03:25.033 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And so I got to know him and basically have been interviewing him ever since. 03:25.033 --> 03:27.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% JOHN YANG: Bob, you mentioned two bits that he talked about. 03:27.700 --> 03:32.266 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% He talked about contradicting the president's strategy on North Korea. 03:32.266 --> 03:36.033 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% He said, "Until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that 10 million 03:36.033 --> 03:41.000 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% people in Seoul don't die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons, I don't 03:41.000 --> 03:42.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% know what you're talking about. 03:42.466 --> 03:44.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% There's no military solution here. 03:44.633 --> 03:46.066 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% They got us." 03:46.066 --> 03:48.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% What was your reaction when you heard that? 03:48.100 --> 03:52.000 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% ROBERT KUTTNER: Well, I thought he was right on the merits, but the first thing I noticed 03:52.000 --> 03:56.900 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% was that this was not exactly the administration's view, certainly not Donald Trump's view.. 03:56.900 --> 04:01.900 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% So, I said to myself, huh, he's being rather incautious and he shows no felt need to defend 04:04.600 --> 04:07.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% his president, and he's just speaking his mind. 04:07.333 --> 04:09.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And it certainly is not the president's view. 04:09.833 --> 04:13.000 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JOHN YANG: He also talked about what he called ethno-nationalism. 04:13.000 --> 04:14.133 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% He called them losers. 04:14.133 --> 04:16.200 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% "It's a fringe element. 04:16.200 --> 04:20.200 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% I think the media plays it up too much and we have got to help crush it, help crush it 04:20.200 --> 04:21.366 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% more. 04:21.366 --> 04:23.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% These guys are a collection of clowns." 04:23.533 --> 04:28.000 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% ROBERT KUTTNER: That was completely disingenuous, because, of course, he, as much as anybody 04:28.000 --> 04:33.000 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% else in America, is responsible for assembling this collection of clowns as a political force. 04:35.000 --> 04:39.100 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And people like Bannon and like Trump, they say what they need to say, and if they contradict 04:41.133 --> 04:44.866 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% themselves today relative to what they said yesterday, well, that's how you do it. 04:46.866 --> 04:50.433 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And if he's trying to ingratiate himself with somebody who's an editor of a liberal magazine, 04:52.433 --> 04:54.400 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% "The American Prospect," he's going to say what he needs to say to try and persuade me 04:54.400 --> 04:56.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that he's not such a bad guy. 04:56.833 --> 04:59.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% But you have to take that with a ton of salt. 04:59.400 --> 05:04.400 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And I think it's the usual dog-whistle stuff, where the alt-right is not going to think 05:06.400 --> 05:10.500 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% that Steve Bannon somehow has had a deathbed conversion and he now thinks they're bad guys. 05:10.500 --> 05:13.666 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JOHN YANG: Josh, what do you think was going on here when he said those things? 05:13.666 --> 05:18.366 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% JOSHUA GREEN: I think that he was trying to impress a credentialed journalist and somebody 05:18.366 --> 05:20.400 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% he admires. 05:20.400 --> 05:24.033 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% He and I -- Bannon and I had similar conversations in the research for my book. 05:24.033 --> 05:27.533 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And I asked him, because he's often charged with anti-Semitism and white nationalism. 05:27.533 --> 05:31.800 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% I said, well, if you don't believe this stuff, why is it that you make common cause with 05:31.800 --> 05:33.900 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% these guys? 05:33.900 --> 05:37.800 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And his answer was that, while the types of you see marching in Charlottesville are -- he 05:40.333 --> 05:44.866 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% called them freaks and goobers to me, he called them clowns to Bob -- were individually ridiculous 05:48.333 --> 05:53.333 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% people, collectively, they represented a political force that he thought he could script into 05:55.466 --> 06:00.500 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% his larger America-first nationalism, into Trumpian politics, and use them, essentially 06:03.133 --> 06:08.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% manipulate them as tools to carry out his political goals. 06:08.733 --> 06:10.666 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% (CROSSTALK) 06:10.666 --> 06:13.200 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JOHN YANG: Bob, he ended the conversation with you by saying that he was -- wanted to 06:13.200 --> 06:18.000 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% see you at the White House after Labor Day to continue discussion of China and trade. 06:18.000 --> 06:20.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Do you think that's going to happen, Bob? 06:20.033 --> 06:24.433 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% ROBERT KUTTNER: You know, I think, as long as Donald Trump is doubling down on the alliance 06:27.900 --> 06:32.900 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% with the far right, Bannon's job may be safe, because he needs Bannon to guide him through 06:35.533 --> 06:37.566 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% that strategy. 06:37.566 --> 06:41.633 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% So, I am certainly not going to predict whether Bannon's job is safe, but I think the point 06:43.633 --> 06:46.100 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% is, a lot of other people in the White House may be furious at Bannon, but there's only 06:46.100 --> 06:47.100 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% one person who counts. 06:47.100 --> 06:48.200 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% And that's Donald Trump. 06:48.200 --> 06:50.233 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% JOSHUA GREEN: I agree. 06:50.233 --> 06:54.200 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And if you listen to what Donald Trump had said in the wake of the Charlottesville attack, 06:56.200 --> 06:59.500 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% it has been precisely the sort of thing that Bannon says and believes, even though it's 07:01.600 --> 07:05.666 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% something that is galling to Republican elected officials, to ordinary Americans, to many 07:08.400 --> 07:13.100 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% advisers within Trump's own White House who are leaking to reporters their dismay and 07:13.100 --> 07:18.100 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% disgust, but don't have the courage to come out and say it publicly or do what they ought 07:20.100 --> 07:24.233 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% to do and resign from their position in the White House, if they don't agree with what 07:24.233 --> 07:26.300 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Donald Trump is saying. 07:26.300 --> 07:29.733 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% JOHN YANG: Joshua Green, Robert Kuttner, you both have fascinating insights into this guy 07:29.733 --> 07:30.933 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Steve Bannon. 07:30.933 --> 07:31.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Thank you very much for joining us. 07:31.733 --> 07:32.733 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% JOSHUA GREEN: Thank you. 07:32.733 --> 07:32.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% ROBERT KUTTNER: Thank you.