HARI SREENIVASAN: Now
to a man often at the
center of controversy in
the Trump White House,

whose outsized influence
is often discussed, yet
he is rarely heard from.

Our John Yang is here to
help fill in the picture.

JOHN YANG: Hari, earlier today,
I spoke with a journalist who
got an unexpected phone call

from Stephen Bannon,
President Trump's embattled
chief strategist.

Robert Kuttner is the co-founder
and co-editor of "The American
Prospect," a liberal magazine.

He's also a professor of social
policy at Brandeis University.

We were also joined by
Joshua Green, a senior
national correspondent
for Bloomberg Businessweek

and author of the bestselling
book "Devil's Bargain: Steve
Bannon, Donald Trump, and the

Storming of the Presidency."

I began by asking Kuttner
about how his conversation
with Bannon came about.

ROBERT KUTTNER, Co-Founder,
"The American Prospect": Well,
I got an e-mail from someone

at the White House who says
that Mr. Bannon would like me
to come into the White House

and meet with him.

So, I double-checked the e-mail
address, which looked legit,
and I called the guy, and he

seemed legit.

And I said, look, I'm on
vacation, but this is kind of
a fast-moving story, so I would

be happy to speak with him by
phone, if he would like to.

And what had happened was, he
had read a column I had written
the day before basically making

the point that, because we have
been so passive in taking on
illegal Chinese trade practices,

that Beijing now has a
huge amount of leverage
over us, where we want
them to help us with

North Korea, but the price for
that is we have got to fold
our hand in terms of taking

a hard line with them on trade.

So, Bannon apparently read that
and felt he had a soul mate,
]and didn't take the precaution

of making clear whether we were
on background or on the record,
and called me up and sounded

as if we were soul
mates and best friends.

And it was like I was part of
a private strategy session with
Stephen Bannon, which was really

quite bizarre.

And about two or three minutes
in, I said to myself, oh,
wow, he is not putting this

off the record.

And I'm certainly not
going to mention it if
he doesn't mention it.

And, of course, the ground
rules are that when a government
official calls you and doesn't

say whether it's off the
record or on the record, the
default setting is that it's on

the record.

And so, 25 minutes later,
I have this astonishing
interview, which I recorded.

JOHN YANG: And this
was the first time you
had ever talked to him?

ROBERT KUTTNER: Absolutely.

And he made it sound like
he'd been reading my stuff for
years and thought it was great,

you know, the usual
kind of flattery stuff.

JOHN YANG: Josh Green, this
is Mr. Kuttner's first time
talking to Steve Bannon.

You have been talking to him
on and off since 2011, I think.

How does this ring true to you?

Does this ring true to you?

JOSHUA GREEN, Bloomberg
Businessweek: Absolutely.

In fact, my introduction
to Steve Bannon was much
the same as Bob Kuttner's.

I had written an article
about Sarah Palin.

And, all of a sudden, one day,
out of the blue, I get a phone
call from a staffer, saying,

I represent a guy named
Steve Bannon, who at the
time was a conservative
filmmaker infatuated

with Sarah Palin.

He said, Mr. Bannon read your
latest article and he would
really like to get together and

talk with you.

In this case, it was at a movie
screening for Bannon's film.

And I met him.

And he's a very interesting,
smart, charismatic guy who had a
distinct brand of politics that

I thought was interesting
and worth writing about.

And so I got to know him
and basically have been
interviewing him ever since.

JOHN YANG: Bob, you mentioned
two bits that he talked about.

He talked about
contradicting the president's
strategy on North Korea.

He said, "Until somebody
solves the part of the equation
that shows me that 10 million

people in Seoul don't die
in the first 30 minutes from
conventional weapons, I don't

know what you're talking about.

There's no military
solution here.

They got us."

What was your reaction
when you heard that?

ROBERT KUTTNER: Well, I thought
he was right on the merits,
but the first thing I noticed

was that this was not
exactly the administration's
view, certainly not
Donald Trump's view..

So, I said to myself, huh, he's
being rather incautious and he
shows no felt need to defend

his president, and he's
just speaking his mind.

And it certainly is not
the president's view.

JOHN YANG: He also
talked about what he
called ethno-nationalism.

He called them losers.

"It's a fringe element.

I think the media plays it up
too much and we have got to
help crush it, help crush it

more.

These guys are a
collection of clowns."

ROBERT KUTTNER: That was
completely disingenuous,
because, of course,
he, as much as anybody

else in America, is responsible
for assembling this collection
of clowns as a political force.

And people like Bannon and like
Trump, they say what they need
to say, and if they contradict

themselves today relative
to what they said yesterday,
well, that's how you do it.

And if he's trying to ingratiate
himself with somebody who's an
editor of a liberal magazine,

"The American Prospect," he's
going to say what he needs
to say to try and persuade me

that he's not such a bad guy.

But you have to take
that with a ton of salt.

And I think it's the usual
dog-whistle stuff, where the
alt-right is not going to think

that Steve Bannon somehow has
had a deathbed conversion and
he now thinks they're bad guys.

JOHN YANG: Josh, what do
you think was going on here
when he said those things?

JOSHUA GREEN: I think
that he was trying to
impress a credentialed
journalist and somebody

he admires.

He and I -- Bannon and I
had similar conversations
in the research for my book.

And I asked him, because he's
often charged with anti-Semitism
and white nationalism.

I said, well, if you don't
believe this stuff, why is it
that you make common cause with

these guys?

And his answer was that, while
the types of you see marching
in Charlottesville are -- he

called them freaks and
goobers to me, he called
them clowns to Bob -- were
individually ridiculous

people, collectively, they
represented a political
force that he thought
he could script into

his larger America-first
nationalism, into
Trumpian politics, and
use them, essentially

manipulate them as tools to
carry out his political goals.

(CROSSTALK)

JOHN YANG: Bob, he ended
the conversation with you by
saying that he was -- wanted to

see you at the White House
after Labor Day to continue
discussion of China and trade.

Do you think that's
going to happen, Bob?

ROBERT KUTTNER: You know, I
think, as long as Donald Trump
is doubling down on the alliance

with the far right, Bannon's job
may be safe, because he needs
Bannon to guide him through

that strategy.

So, I am certainly not going
to predict whether Bannon's job
is safe, but I think the point

is, a lot of other people in
the White House may be furious
at Bannon, but there's only

one person who counts.

And that's Donald Trump.

JOSHUA GREEN: I agree.

And if you listen to what Donald
Trump had said in the wake of
the Charlottesville attack,

it has been precisely the sort
of thing that Bannon says and
believes, even though it's

something that is galling to
Republican elected officials,
to ordinary Americans, to many

advisers within Trump's own
White House who are leaking
to reporters their dismay and

disgust, but don't have the
courage to come out and say it
publicly or do what they ought

to do and resign from their
position in the White House,
if they don't agree with what

Donald Trump is saying.

JOHN YANG: Joshua Green,
Robert Kuttner, you
both have fascinating
insights into this guy

Steve Bannon.

Thank you very much
for joining us.

JOSHUA GREEN: Thank you.

ROBERT KUTTNER: Thank you.