1 00:00:02,566 --> 00:00:05,033 JUDY WOODRUFF: Former Ohio Governor John Kasich served in public office for over three decades. 2 00:00:05,033 --> 00:00:10,033 But, in his new book, "It's Up to Us," he calls on the American people to pay less attention 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,466 to the president and the dramas in Washington. 4 00:00:13,466 --> 00:00:18,466 Instead, Kasich urges individual Americans to focus on the ability each one has to move 5 00:00:19,833 --> 00:00:23,033 their community and the country forward. 6 00:00:23,033 --> 00:00:24,800 Governor John Kasich, welcome back to the "NewsHour." 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:26,333 JOHN KASICH (R), Former Ohio Governor: Always great to be with you. 8 00:00:26,333 --> 00:00:28,100 JUDY WOODRUFF: So, I do want to ask you about the book. 9 00:00:28,100 --> 00:00:30,633 But I first want to ask you about the news of the day. 10 00:00:30,633 --> 00:00:32,700 And you have made some news yourself. 11 00:00:32,700 --> 00:00:37,133 You said today that you have now come around to the view that President Trump should be 12 00:00:37,133 --> 00:00:39,333 impeached by the House of Representatives. 13 00:00:39,333 --> 00:00:41,433 Why? 14 00:00:41,433 --> 00:00:44,633 JOHN KASICH: Well, first of all, Judy, I thought there should have been an impeachment inquiry 15 00:00:44,633 --> 00:00:46,666 from the very beginning. 16 00:00:46,666 --> 00:00:50,366 In fact, I think the Democrats should have a vote in the full House on the inquiry. 17 00:00:50,366 --> 00:00:51,733 It gives it credibility. 18 00:00:51,733 --> 00:00:53,100 It gives it transparency. 19 00:00:53,100 --> 00:00:55,333 And I think that's very important. 20 00:00:55,333 --> 00:01:00,366 What was hanging me up about the call that the president made to the president of Ukraine 21 00:01:01,233 --> 00:01:03,366 was, was there a quid pro quo? 22 00:01:03,366 --> 00:01:08,366 And there's so much going on in this drama yesterday, with Sondland and text messages 23 00:01:09,533 --> 00:01:12,633 between him and Taylor and Volker. 24 00:01:12,633 --> 00:01:13,800 Those had me greatly concerned. 25 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:15,033 JUDY WOODRUFF: Different diplomats. 26 00:01:15,033 --> 00:01:16,966 JOHN KASICH: Yes, all the testimonies. 27 00:01:16,966 --> 00:01:21,100 But when Mulvaney said, it's absolutely true that we withheld aid until they agreed to 28 00:01:21,100 --> 00:01:26,100 go back and do an investigation of the 2016 election, withholding aid from a country like 29 00:01:28,100 --> 00:01:32,733 Ukraine that lives in the shadow of the -- of Russia, it's got troops on their land, there's 30 00:01:32,733 --> 00:01:34,033 no excuse for that. 31 00:01:34,033 --> 00:01:36,066 (CROSSTALK) 32 00:01:36,066 --> 00:01:40,033 JUDY WOODRUFF: But, as you know, though, Mick Mulvaney said then, he said again today, hey, 33 00:01:41,533 --> 00:01:44,033 there's political influence in American foreign policy. 34 00:01:44,033 --> 00:01:46,066 Get over it. 35 00:01:46,066 --> 00:01:48,833 In fact, the Trump campaign is now today selling T-shirts with "Get over it." 36 00:01:48,833 --> 00:01:50,933 JOHN KASICH: Yes. 37 00:01:50,933 --> 00:01:54,033 Well, look, it's one thing for a president to be able to pull aid from a country based 38 00:01:54,033 --> 00:01:56,100 on public policy. 39 00:01:56,100 --> 00:02:00,600 But it's another thing to say -- to dangle aid, vital military aid, over the head of 40 00:02:02,500 --> 00:02:06,333 a nation that's fighting literally for their survival, and so -- and based on politics, 41 00:02:07,766 --> 00:02:10,166 based on just, you got to go do this investigation we want. 42 00:02:10,166 --> 00:02:12,133 And we don't want any president to do that. 43 00:02:12,133 --> 00:02:15,466 And I don't come to this -- this is really, really hard for me. 44 00:02:15,466 --> 00:02:17,566 I'm -- it's a really sad day for me. 45 00:02:17,566 --> 00:02:19,866 I don't want to have to be doing this. 46 00:02:19,866 --> 00:02:24,800 But when I look at it -- and I have responsibility to respond to questions. 47 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,466 I felt this was absolutely the right thing to do. 48 00:02:27,466 --> 00:02:29,933 So I feel good about what I have said. 49 00:02:29,933 --> 00:02:31,966 But I'm saddened at the same time. 50 00:02:31,966 --> 00:02:36,066 JUDY WOODRUFF: As you know, though, John Kasich, President Trump said -- and he again -- he 51 00:02:36,066 --> 00:02:38,566 said it again last night -- I'm unconventional. 52 00:02:38,566 --> 00:02:40,833 I do things in a different way. 53 00:02:40,833 --> 00:02:45,666 Why isn't he, in his words, allowed to do things in a way we have never seen before? 54 00:02:45,666 --> 00:02:50,333 JOHN KASICH: Well, because there's appropriate ways in which a president should conduct himself 55 00:02:50,333 --> 00:02:54,733 in office, keeping in mind that there can't be things like an abuse of power. 56 00:02:54,733 --> 00:02:56,766 Everyone's held accountable. 57 00:02:56,766 --> 00:03:00,266 And if the president had said, I'm not going to give any money to Ukraine because I think 58 00:03:00,266 --> 00:03:03,466 there's too much corruption, well, that'd be OK with me. 59 00:03:03,466 --> 00:03:07,100 But to say that, I'm going to withhold this aid until you want -- meet -- with until you 60 00:03:07,100 --> 00:03:11,033 do what I want you to do politically, which is what the chief of staff said yesterday 61 00:03:11,033 --> 00:03:15,500 - - and no matter how hard they try, they can't take those words back, because that demon 62 00:03:15,500 --> 00:03:18,066 - - that gives us a window into the way they were thinking there. 63 00:03:18,066 --> 00:03:21,266 JUDY WOODRUFF: So you're saying, if you were in the House today, you would vote for impeachment? 64 00:03:21,266 --> 00:03:22,933 JOHN KASICH: I would. 65 00:03:22,933 --> 00:03:24,433 JUDY WOODRUFF: Which is equivalent in criminal law to an indictment. 66 00:03:24,433 --> 00:03:25,700 JOHN KASICH: Right. 67 00:03:25,700 --> 00:03:27,366 JUDY WOODRUFF: It's a statement of charges. 68 00:03:27,366 --> 00:03:30,233 What about convicting him, which is what the Senate would be asked... 69 00:03:30,233 --> 00:03:33,333 JOHN KASICH: Well, I think I would like to see what the articles of impeachment are that 70 00:03:33,333 --> 00:03:35,933 - - whatever the House comes up with. 71 00:03:35,933 --> 00:03:40,933 And at the same time, Judy, I think it's important for the Democrats to try to bring Republicans 72 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,466 along. 73 00:03:43,466 --> 00:03:46,733 And what Republicans have to ask themselves, because we are now so tribal, we're so partisan, 74 00:03:46,733 --> 00:03:51,733 is it right for any president to dangle foreign aid for the survival of a country in a quid 75 00:03:54,300 --> 00:03:58,233 pro quo that, you need to investigate either your political rival or some political manipulation 76 00:03:59,666 --> 00:04:01,733 or political investigation? 77 00:04:01,733 --> 00:04:03,766 I think the answer is no. 78 00:04:03,766 --> 00:04:07,033 We have to have guardrails in which our presidents and leaders have to operate. 79 00:04:07,033 --> 00:04:09,366 JUDY WOODRUFF: So are you ready to say he should be removed from office? 80 00:04:09,366 --> 00:04:11,500 JOHN KASICH: I want the process to go forward. 81 00:04:11,500 --> 00:04:15,033 For me to say impeachment, that's like as hard as it gets for me. 82 00:04:15,033 --> 00:04:18,600 And that indicates, I think, there's enough there to be able to do that. 83 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,133 But that's the job of the Senate. 84 00:04:20,133 --> 00:04:23,033 And we all have to slow down and let this process take its place. 85 00:04:23,033 --> 00:04:27,000 JUDY WOODRUFF: There are so few Republicans in Congress -- in fact, virtually... 86 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,500 JOHN KASICH: None. 87 00:04:28,500 --> 00:04:29,300 JUDY WOODRUFF: ... none, who agree with you right now. 88 00:04:29,300 --> 00:04:30,500 JOHN KASICH: Yes. 89 00:04:30,500 --> 00:04:31,733 JUDY WOODRUFF: Why -- why so few? 90 00:04:31,733 --> 00:04:33,200 JOHN KASICH: Well, again, it's tribal. 91 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:34,766 We're going to protect our guy. 92 00:04:34,766 --> 00:04:36,866 And I just wish this would go away. 93 00:04:36,866 --> 00:04:41,400 I mean, what has been amazing to me is, they're not even saying that that phone call was wrong. 94 00:04:43,533 --> 00:04:45,633 And they won't say, of course, that you want to have an impeachment inquiry, but when the 95 00:04:45,633 --> 00:04:49,133 mass majority of Americans now are saying that this is necessary, we need to get to 96 00:04:49,133 --> 00:04:50,233 the bottom of it. 97 00:04:50,233 --> 00:04:51,566 But you know what? 98 00:04:51,566 --> 00:04:52,566 It's now. 99 00:04:52,566 --> 00:04:54,533 Tomorrow is a different day. 100 00:04:54,533 --> 00:04:58,133 And as more people testify, as there's more witnesses, everybody will have to judge for 101 00:04:58,133 --> 00:05:00,166 themselves. 102 00:05:00,166 --> 00:05:03,033 I'm not going to beat anybody else up into having the opinion I have. 103 00:05:03,033 --> 00:05:07,433 It's just that -- look, it was so hard for me to vote to impeach Clinton when he was 104 00:05:07,433 --> 00:05:08,933 up. 105 00:05:08,933 --> 00:05:10,866 And I struggled over that, but I decided to do it. 106 00:05:10,866 --> 00:05:15,766 This is not the area of government that I like to focus on, scandal and impeachment. 107 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,666 But we all have our responsibilities to do and say some things, even when we have to 108 00:05:20,666 --> 00:05:22,766 get out of our comfort zone. 109 00:05:22,766 --> 00:05:25,733 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, in fact, your book is about, don't focus so much on Washington. 110 00:05:25,733 --> 00:05:27,866 The title is, "It's Up to Us." 111 00:05:27,866 --> 00:05:32,866 You're saying the American people have the ability, they have the obligation to themselves 112 00:05:32,866 --> 00:05:34,866 try to make the country better, their community better. 113 00:05:34,866 --> 00:05:37,733 JOHN KASICH: Well, live a life -- yes, live a life a little bigger than themselves. 114 00:05:37,733 --> 00:05:38,933 We all have certain gifts. 115 00:05:38,933 --> 00:05:39,933 You have them. 116 00:05:39,933 --> 00:05:41,700 The people watching have them. 117 00:05:41,700 --> 00:05:43,000 And they're given to us. 118 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,066 And we're expected to be healers in the world. 119 00:05:45,066 --> 00:05:47,433 We're not expected to be dividers. 120 00:05:47,433 --> 00:05:49,200 And we need to get out of our silos. 121 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,700 We need to put ourselves in other people's shoes. 122 00:05:51,700 --> 00:05:54,400 And we need to take care of things where we live. 123 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,300 And that doesn't mean that, sometimes, those actions don't result in big global things, 124 00:05:58,300 --> 00:06:03,300 like Greta Thunberg, the 16-year-old girl who held a sign and created a global movement, 125 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,633 or those young people at Parkland in Florida who pushed gun control through the Florida 126 00:06:09,233 --> 00:06:10,466 legislature. 127 00:06:10,466 --> 00:06:12,133 But there's also stories in here about people. 128 00:06:12,133 --> 00:06:14,000 One girl, she lives in Illinois. 129 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:18,033 She was 5 years old when Hurricane Florence was coming. 130 00:06:18,033 --> 00:06:20,100 Her name was Florence. 131 00:06:20,100 --> 00:06:22,200 She told her mom: "They're not going to like me, because my name is Florence, and that 132 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:23,266 storm is horrible. 133 00:06:23,266 --> 00:06:25,233 I got to go get Band-Aids." 134 00:06:25,233 --> 00:06:28,033 And she and her brother went around the neighborhood in a little red wagon. 135 00:06:28,033 --> 00:06:32,000 And when they collected supplies, they filled the garage, and somebody took a tractor-trailer 136 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:33,066 down to North Carolina. 137 00:06:33,066 --> 00:06:35,200 Now, did she change the world? 138 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,266 She most certainly did. 139 00:06:37,266 --> 00:06:40,133 JUDY WOODRUFF: What do you say to the people who voted for Donald Trump in 2016? 140 00:06:40,133 --> 00:06:45,133 There were 60-some million of them, who many of them have told us and they have told others, 141 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:47,433 I voted for him because I wanted change. 142 00:06:47,433 --> 00:06:49,000 I didn't like what was going on in Washington. 143 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,733 I thought he was going to bring the change. 144 00:06:51,733 --> 00:06:53,800 What do you say to them? 145 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:55,100 JOHN KASICH: Well, they have to look in the mirror and ask themselves honestly, did he 146 00:06:55,100 --> 00:06:56,566 bring the change that he promised? 147 00:06:56,566 --> 00:06:58,566 I mean, are there more steel mills? 148 00:06:58,566 --> 00:07:02,600 Are there more cars being made, all those kinds of -- are there more auto plants open? 149 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,433 And how do I feel about the rhetoric? 150 00:07:05,433 --> 00:07:10,233 This whole business of bullying, to some degree, I have had people argue in this -- who work 151 00:07:10,233 --> 00:07:13,933 in schools that, somehow, bullying has become more acceptable. 152 00:07:13,933 --> 00:07:16,433 It -- look, I don't like this, Judy. 153 00:07:16,433 --> 00:07:20,433 I don't like to have to say these things about our president. 154 00:07:20,433 --> 00:07:24,266 But when I look at it, when I look at the scale of his policies and the behavior that 155 00:07:24,266 --> 00:07:27,633 divides us, something has to be done about it. 156 00:07:27,633 --> 00:07:29,700 But that's not why I'm for impeachment. 157 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:33,433 I'm for impeachment because of what I think is the quid pro quo, bringing politics into 158 00:07:33,433 --> 00:07:36,666 foreign aid, and putting other nations at risk. 159 00:07:36,666 --> 00:07:41,266 JUDY WOODRUFF: John Kasich, the former governor of Ohio, former congressman. 160 00:07:41,266 --> 00:07:45,100 The book is "It's Up to Us: Ten Little Ways We Can Bring About Big Change." 161 00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:47,166 Thank you. 162 00:07:47,166 --> 00:07:48,233 JOHN KASICH: It's for the young, for the middle-aged, and it's for our seniors. 163 00:07:48,233 --> 00:07:49,233 JUDY WOODRUFF: Thank you. 164 00:07:49,233 --> 00:07:49,733 JOHN KASICH: Thank you.