>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO InFOCUS PROVIDED BY THE  MCCUNE CHARITABLE FOUNDATION.
AND THE NEEPER NATURAL HISTORY PROGRAMMING FUND FOR  KNME-TV.
AND VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
>> Gene: THIS WEEK ON NEW  MEXICO InFOCUS, 'OUR LAND' EXPLORES A FOREST MANAGEMENT  COLLABORATION IN NORTHERN  NEW MEXICO.
>> David: WE'RE A  COLLECTIVIST CULTURE WHERE THE GROUP IS MORE IMPORTANT  THAN THE INDIVIDUAL.
>> Gene: AND, THE POWER OF  IMAGES TO TELL A MORE COMPLETE STORY OF THE  STRUGGLE ON THE U.S.-MEXICO BORDER.
NEW MEXICO InFOCUS STARTS NOW.
>> Gene: THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.
I'M YOUR HOST, GENE GRANT.
WE'VE GOT A WIDE RANGE OF  OFFERINGS FOR YOU THIS WEEK AS WE ALL WRAP UP WHAT WAS  PROBABLY A SHORTER WORK WEEK.
NOW, IT WAS A YEAR AGO THIS SUMMER THE STREETS OF NEW  MEXICO ERUPTED IN PROTESTS AS THE BLACK LIVES MATTER  MOVEMENT KICKED INTO HIGH GEAR.
WE'LL TALK WITH AN EXPERT ABOUT WHY THE POWER OF  PEACEFUL PROTESTS IS STILL SO ENDURING.
WE'LL ALSO LOOK AT HOW A NEW MEXICO NATIVE AND NOW A  UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR SAYS HER UPBRINGING PLAYED A ROLE  IN HER ACADEMIC WORK, WHICH IS FOCUSED ON BETTER  UNDERSTANDING NEW MEXICO'S HISTORY OF COLONIALISM.
BUT UP FIRST, THE POWER OF  IMAGINARY TO TELL COMPLICATED STORIES.
ROBERTO ROSALES IS A PHOTOGRAPHER WITH THE  ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL.
HIS WORK SPANS EVERYTHING  FROM COLLEGE SPORTS TO CRIME SCENES, AND FOR DECADES, IT  HAS ALSO INCLUDED COVERING THE U.S. BORDER, TO SHINE A  LIFE ON THE PERSONAL STORIES OF PEOPLE CROSSING INTO THE  U.S. SEEKING SAFETY AND ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY.
CORRESPONDENT LAURA PASKUS SPOKE WITH ROSALES ABOUT WHY  HIS IMAGES CAN HELP US ALL BETTER UNDERSTAND  IMMIGRATION.
>> Laura: ROBERTO, WELCOME  BACK TO NEW MEXICO InFOCUS.
THANKS FOR JOINING ME.
>> Roberto: THANK YOU FOR  HAVING ME.
>> Laura: SO YOU COVER  EVERYTHING FOR THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL; CRIME,  SPORTS, CIVIC EVENTS.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN  COVERING THE U.S.-MEXICO  BORDER?
>> Roberto: I'VE BEEN  COVERING THE BORDER FOR ABOUT 20 YEARS, TWO DECADES,  STARTING IN 2000.
>> Laura: AND WHAT HAVE YOU  SEEN CHANGE THE MOST OVER THAT TIME?
>> Roberto: I THINK, YOU KNOW,   IN THOSE DAYS, IN THE FIRST TEN YEARS THAT I  COVERED IMMIGRATION, IT WAS REALLY HARD TO GET SOMEBODY  TO ACTUALLY WITNESS THEM CROSSING.
IT WAS REALLY HARD TO FIND SOMETHING LIKE THAT IN THE  DESERT.
YOU HAD TO FIND VERY  STRATEGIC POINTS ALONG THE BORDER, ESPECIALLY AROUND  NEW MEXICO.
BUT TODAY WITH THE ASYLUM  CRISIS, IF YOU COULD CALL IT,   IT'S EVERYWHERE.
YOU SEE THEM EVERYWHERE.
THEIR ATTITUDES, PERSPECTIVES ARE CHANGING.
OBVIOUSLY EVERYONE IS JUST TRYING TO COME ACROSS,  WHEREAS BEFORE YOU ALSO SAW A LOT OF MEXICAN IMMIGRANTS  COMING, AND TODAY YOU HARDLY EVER SEE ANY.
THEY'RE MAINLY JUST FROM CENTRAL AMERICA, CUBA,  HAITI, AND NORTHERN SOUTH AMERICA.
SO BIG SHIFT THERE.
>> Laura: CAN YOU TALK A  LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT AND KIND OF WHY THOSE CHANGES  ARE HAPPENING AND HOW THAT CHANGES WHAT'S HAPPENING  RIGHT ALONG THE BORDER?
>> Roberto: SO   THE CENTRAL AMERICANS, FOR INSTANCE,  THEY ARE REALLY STARTING TO MIGRATE MAINLY BECAUSE OF  ALL THE VIOLENCE THAT'S HAPPENING, THE GANG  VIOLENCE, AND I THINK THAT'S THE NUMBER ONE REASON FOR  THEM COMING ACROSS.
HERE'S A PERFECT EXAMPLE.
FAMILY FROM HONDURAS, UNACCOMPANIED MINOR FROM  CENTRAL AMERICA, THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE SEEING.
THEY DON'T HAVE AN OPTION TO STAY AND MAYBE HOPEFULLY  THINGS GET BETTER THROUGH DIPLOMACY.
THEY EITHER HAVE TO LEAVE OR THEY JOIN AN ORGANIZATION,  CRIME ORGANIZATION.
SO IT'S KIND OF HARD.
AND THAT'S WHAT I'M SEEING MORE ALONG THE BORDER.
THAT'S THE BIGGEST CHANGE.
EVERYONE THAT'S COMING HERE,  THEY'RE COMING BECAUSE THEY'RE RUNNING AWAY FROM  SOMETHING.
YES, THEY OBVIOUSLY WANT A  JOB, BUT THE DIFFERENCE NOW IS SURVIVAL.
IT'S NOT THAT THEY'RE LOOKING FOR THE AMERICAN  DREAM OR A BETTER WAY OF LIFE, THE NUMBER ONE REASON  IS SURVIVAL, AND THAT IS THE BIGGEST CHANGE FROM NOW  SINCE WHEN I STARTED WORKING.
EVERYONE I SPOKE TO IN THE FIRST FIVE OR TEN YEARS OF  COVERING THE BORDER, IT WAS ALWAYS ABOUT, WELL, I HAVE  FAMILY IN THE STATES, I'M GOING TO GO WORK THERE, I'M  JUST TRYING TO LOOK FOR MY AMERICAN DREAM.
AND TODAY, THERE'S NO SUCH THING.
NOW IT'S, I JUST WANT TO BE ALIVE.
BIG DIFFERENCE.
>> Laura: THERE'S A LOT OF  POLITICAL RHETORIC IN THE UNITED STATES AND THIS STATE  ABOUT A SECURITY CRISIS, BUT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT  SOUNDS TO ME LIKE A HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.
>> Roberto: IT IS A HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.
I MEAN, NOT ONLY ARE CENTRAL AMERICANS RUNNING AWAY, BUT  ALSO ONE OF THE BIGGEST FACTORS THAT IS INFLUENCING  THIS CRIME WAVE IN CENTRAL AMERICA IS THE CARTELS THAT  ARE IN MEXICO, THEY'RE STARTING TO BRANCH OUT  THROUGHOUT CENTRAL AMERICA.
SO NOW YOU'RE FIGHTING GANGS  AND YOU'RE ALSO FIGHTING THE CARTELS.
AND THEN, OF COURSE, IF PEOPLE DO THE RESEARCH, THE  CARTELS ARE BEING, I WOULDN'T SAY FUNDED, BUT  THEY'RE BEING GIVEN ARMS THAT ARE ALMOST STRICTLY  COMING FROM THE UNITED STATES.
AND AS THEY'RE TRYING TO MAKE HUMAN SMUGGLING A  BUSINESS, THEY'RE BRANCHING OUT INTO EL SALVADOR,  HONDURAS, GUATEMALA.
THAT IS JUST A DOUBLE  WHAMMY, IF YOU WILL.
BUT RECENTLY I WAS IN JUAREZ  AT AN IMMIGRANT SHELTER AND I NOTICED ANOTHER FACTOR  THAT'S HAPPENING RECENTLY, AND THAT'S CLIMATE CHANGE.
PEOPLE CAN NO LONGER FARM.
I MET A GENTLEMAN FROM  HONDURAS WHO LOST ALL HIS CROPS.
THERE WAS A NATURAL DISASTER, A HURRICANE.
BUT ALSO IN TALKING TO PEOPLE FROM GUATEMALA, THEY  DON'T GET THE RAINS LIKE THEY USED TO.
THEY CAN'T HARVEST COFFEE.
SO WHEN YOU COMBINE THAT  WITH GANG WARFARE, YOU ONLY HAVE ONE CHOICE.
YOU GOT TO COME UP NORTH.
AND AGAIN, THAT'S JUST  SURVIVAL.
>> Laura:   SO ONE OF THE THINGS IN YOUR IMAGES THAT I  ALWAYS WONDER ABOUT IS HOW PEOPLE WHO ARE AFRAID FOR  THEIR LIVES, AFRAID OF GETTING CAUGHT, HOW DO YOU  TAKE THESE IMAGES?
HOW DO YOU MEET PEOPLE AND  PHOTOGRAPH THEM?
>> Roberto: YOU KNOW, I  HAVE THIS CONNECTION WITH PEOPLE, I GUESS.
I'M AN IMMIGRANT MYSELF AND I THINK I   UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE GOING THROUGH.
AND I GIVE THEM SPACE, I GIVE THEM THE TIME TO NOT  FEEL, YOU KNOW, THREATENED BY ME OR MY CAMERAS.
I TAKE THE TIME TO TALK TO THEM.
AND A LOT OF THE TIMES, THEY WANT TO BE HEARD.
IF YOU TAKE THE TIME TO LISTEN FOR FIVE MINUTES, TO  THEM IT'S LIKE A BIG RELIEF, AND I SENSE THAT.
AND, YOU KNOW, YOU WANT TO PHOTOGRAPH FOLKS IN A VERY  HUMANIZING WAY, ALSO, AND SO I STRIVE TO DO THAT.
BUT, YEAH, FOR SOME REASON I HAVE HAD THIS CONNECTION  WITH FOLKS.
AND I UNDERSTAND WHAT  THEY'RE GOING THROUGH.
I'M AN IMMIGRANT, MYSELF.
SO I THINK THAT ALSO PLAYS A BIG PART.
I DON'T JUST POINT CAMERAS AND SHOOT WHENEVER I WANT,  IT'S A VERY METICULOUS PROCESS, VERY SLOW.
BUT IT CAN BE REWARDING AT TIMES.
AND AGAIN, WE'RE TELLING THEIR STORY.
>> Laura: SO THE BORDER IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT PART OF  NEW MEXICO, BUT FOR THOSE OF US, LIKE WE'RE SITTING HERE  IN ALBUQUERQUE, IT CAN SOMETIMES FEEL LIKE A  DISTANT PLACE.
>> Roberto: YES.
>> Laura: WHAT DO YOU WISH THAT ALL NEW MEXICANS BETTER  UNDERSTOOD ABOUT THE BORDER ITSELF AND WHAT'S HAPPENING  RIGHT NOW ALONG IT?
>> Roberto: YOU KNOW, I  THINK -- I LOOK AT THE BORDER AS THE OCEAN.
LIKE, HIGH TIDE, LOW TIDE.
THE BORDER IS LIKE THE HIGH  TIDE, COMING IN AND GOING BACK AT LOW TIDE.
BUT ALSO, IT'S A WONDERFUL PLACE AND IT DOESN'T HAVE TO  BE MARRED BY VIOLENCE AND PEOPLE TRYING TO COME  ACROSS.
THESE ARE TWO NATIONS THAT  ARE TRYING TO CO-EXIST, AND IT IS NOT -- WE LOOK AT IT  AS ALMOST LIKE A BLACK-AND-WHITE ISSUE, TOO.
THEY THINK THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU LIVE ON THE OTHER SIDE,  YOU WANT TO COME OVER HERE, AND THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE.
GIVEN A CHOICE, MOST PEOPLE WOULD NOT COME HERE.
YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SEPARATED, I THINK,  SEPARATED FROM YOUR FAMILY, AND PEOPLE I THINK TEND TO  FORGET THAT.
NOBODY IS TRYING TO TAKE  YOUR JOB, NOBODY IS TRYING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE  SYSTEM.
SURVIVAL IS ONE THING, BUT  EVERYONE HAS A RIGHT TO A BETTER LIFE, AND THE BORDER  JUST DOESN'T -- IT SHOULD NOT REPRESENT JUST DEATH,  DESTRUCTION, SEPARATION OF FAMILIES.
IT'S A LOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT.
BUT IT'S A STRANGE PART OF OUR CULTURE, I GUESS, AND  PEOPLE DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND THAT.
JUST BECAUSE YOU LIVE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS FENCE  NOW, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO STAY ON THAT SIDE AND I  DON'T HAVE TO STAY ON THIS SIDE.
WE CAN JOIN HANDS, JOIN IDEAS, AND CO-EXIST IN A  BETTER WAY.
SHARE ALL THESE EXPERIENCES.
IT'S A COMPLICATED ISSUE.
BUT IT'S ALSO A BEAUTIFUL AREA.
IT IS AN AMAZING AREA WHERE SO MANY THINGS HAPPEN.
AND THEN LIKE IN THIS PHOTO, THESE ARE ALL MEN FROM  MEXICO WHO ARE TRYING TO COME ACROSS THE BORDER AND  WHO ARE LEAVING THEIR FAMILIES, AND THIS IS JUST  IN A BORDER TOWN ACROSS FROM NEW MEXICO.
THIS IS IN A TOWN CALLED LAS CHIAPAS, WHICH IS ABOUT  15 MILES WEST OF COLUMBUS, NEW MEXICO, AND THIS IS A  DAY WHEN THEY'RE TRYING TO COME ACROSS.
AND EVERY TIME I SPOKE TO THEM, THE WHOLE TIME THEY  WANTED TO TALK ABOUT THEIR FAMILIES, THEIR KIDS.
EVERYONE HAS PHOTOS OF THEIR KIDS.
AND, YOU KNOW, THE BORDER IS JUST THIS PLACE, ALSO, WHERE  STORIES ARE BEING TOLD BY THEM, BY ME, BY SO MANY  OTHERS.
>> Laura:   SO WHEN POLITICAL LEADERS SAY THINGS LIKE,  DON'T COME HERE, IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE -- LIKE FOR ME, I  WOULDN'T WANT TO HAVE TO LEAVE MY HOME AND MY FAMILY.
>> Roberto: RIGHT.
I THINK IT'S EASY TO SAY  THAT FROM BEING HERE IN THE U.S., BUT UNLESS WE ADDRESS  THE ISSUES, THE ROOT ISSUES OF WHY PEOPLE ARE COMING,  SAVE YOUR BREATH.
THIS IS GOING TO CONTINUE.
AND UNLESS WE HELP THESE COUNTRIES COMBAT   GANG ACTIVITY AND NARCO ACTIVITY,  THIS IS GOING TO CONTINUE.
IT HAS NO END IN SIGHT.
AND, IN FACT, NOW THAT YOU'RE ADDING CLIMATE  CHANGE, I THINK IT'S GOING TO INCREASE.
SO I FEAR FOR WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
BUT WITH THE INCREASE OF NUMBERS COMING ACROSS, I  THINK WE'RE STILL PAINTING EVERYBODY WITH THE SAME  BRUSH, AND I DON'T LIKE THAT.
I JUST WANTED TO MENTION  SOMETHING ABOUT THIS IMAGE.
THIS IS WHAT THE U.S.-MEXICO  BORDER LOOKED LIKE BACK AROUND 2005.
THIS IS WHERE THE TRUMP WALL WAS BUILT.
IT WAS NEAR JOHNSON FARMS IN NEW MEXICO.
BUT BACK IN THOSE DAYS, THIS IS WHAT THE BORDER LOOKED  LIKE, AND THESE GENTLEMEN ARE WAITING FOR IT TO GET  DARKER SO THEY CAN COME ACROSS.
AND NONE OF THEM WANT TO STICK AROUND THIS AREA.
THEY HAVE FAMILIES IN CALIFORNIA, FLORIDA, ALL  THESE OTHER PLACES.
>> Laura:   WE WERE DOWN AT THE BORDER ALMOST TWO YEARS  AGO, A-YEAR-AND-A-HALF AGO, AND NOW THE WALL IS 30 FEET  TALL, STEEL BOLLARDS.
HOW HAS THAT CHANGED HOW  PEOPLE COME?
>> Roberto: WELL, IT IS  MORE DIFFICULT TO CROSS IN THIS AREA, SO WHAT IT'S  DOING, ESPECIALLY IN THE BOOT HEEL OF NEW MEXICO, THE  MOST SOUTHWEST CORNER OF OUR STATE, IT'S PUSHING EVERYONE  TOWARDS THE CHIRICAHUA MOUNTAINS ALONG THE  ARIZONA-NEW MEXICO BORDER AND THAT TERRAIN IS  TREACHEROUS.
AND THERE ARE ALSO AREAS  ALONG NEW MEXICO, LIKE THE PELONCILLO MOUNTAINS, THAT  DUE TO THE GEOGRAPHICAL CONSTRAINTS YOU COULDN'T  BUILD THE WALL OVER THAT.
BUT IT'S FORCING ALL THESE  IMMIGRANTS TO TAKE A MORE DANGEROUS TREK, IF YOU WILL.
BUT ALSO, NOW YOU'RE GROUPING IMMIGRANTS WHO WANT  TO COME FOR A BETTER LIFE, OR JUST TO SURVIVE, AND  YOU'RE GROUPING THEM WITH DRUG SMUGGLERS, BECAUSE  THOSE ARE THE PREFERRED ROUTES FOR THE CARTELS, THE  PELONCILLO MOUNTAINS AND THE CHIRICAHUA MOUNTAINS.
BUT ALSO, NATURE, HABITATS, THEY'RE BEING DESTROYED.
SPECIES ARE NOT BEING ABLE TO CROSS BACK AND FORTH.
SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT GETS LOST IN THIS WHOLE  TALK, AND I THINK THAT'S ANOTHER THING THAT WE NEED  TO ADDRESS.
>> Laura: SO HOW IS NEW  MEXICO'S SHARED BORDER WITH MEXICO A LITTLE BIT  DIFFERENT FROM, SAY, POLICIES OR HOW MIGRANTS ARE  TREATED THAN IN, SAY, TEXAS OR ARIZONA OR CALIFORNIA?
ARE WE DIFFERENT?
>> Roberto: I MEAN, I THINK  WE'RE DIFFERENT IN THE SENSE  THAT WE DON'T HAVE ALL THE OPTIONS THAT PEOPLE HAVE,  ESPECIALLY ALONG ARIZONA AND TEXAS.
WHEN YOU CROSS INTO NEW MEXICO, YOU'RE OFTEN MET BY  RANCHERS WHO ARE VERY ANTI-IMMIGRANT.
SO THERE IS ANOTHER OBSTACLE.
YOU HAVE BOUNDARIES BY THE MOUNTAINS, RANCHERS WHO ARE  AGAINST IMMIGRATION, AND YOU'RE MORE IN AN OPEN AREA.
YOU CAN'T HIDE.
YOU DON'T HAVE AN URBAN  ENVIRONMENT TO HIDE IN LIKE YOU WOULD IN MAYBE EL PASO,  LET'S SAY, OR SOMEWHERE IN NOGALES, OUT OF ARIZONA.
SO YOU'RE KIND OF A SITTING DUCK WHEN YOU COME   THROUGH NEW MEXICO.
AND I THINK A LOT OF COYOTES, HUMAN SMUGGLERS,  PROMISE THAT THEY ARE GOING TO TAKE IMMIGRANTS ACROSS  TEXAS OR ARIZONA, AND A LOT OF THESE IMMIGRANTS COULDN'T  TELL THE DIFFERENCE, AND BECAUSE IT'S EASIER FOR  SMUGGLERS TO DROP THEM OFF IN NEW MEXICO, THIS IS WHAT  THEY END UP DOING.
AND MOST PEOPLE THAT ARE  DROPPED OFF IN NEW MEXICO ARE CAUGHT, WHEREAS YOU CAN  BLEND IN IN OTHER PARTS.
SO IT'S A LOT MORE  DIFFICULT.
THE NUMBERS SHOW IT, ALSO.
TEXAS IS WAY AHEAD, ARIZONA IS WAY AHEAD.
>> Laura: SO 20 YEARS OF STORYTELLING ALONG THE  BORDER, MEETING COUNTLESS PEOPLE OVER THAT TIME, WHAT  DO YOU WISH THAT NEW MEXICANS BETTER UNDERSTOOD  ABOUT THE CHALLENGES THAT THESE PEOPLE AND THESE  FAMILIES FACE EVERY DAY?
>> Roberto: SO,   YOU KNOW, I OFTEN LOOK AT THE KIDS, THE  YOUTH WHO COME WITH THEIR PARENTS, AND A LOT OF TIMES  THE ONE THING THAT STICKS OUT IN MY MIND IS THAT,  ESPECIALLY WITH THE KIDS, THAT THE CHILDHOOD IS JUST  BEING LOST.
YOU HAVE NO ROOTS THAT YOU  CAN PUT INTO THE GROUND, AND A LOT OF THEIR CHILDHOOD IS  BEING LOST.
AND I WISH   SOME PEOPLE WERE MORE COMPASSIONATE, PEOPLE  WHO COULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
NO MOTHER, NO PARENT SHOULD  HAVE TO BE SEPARATED FROM THEIR KIDS.
BUT IT IS SUCH A TREACHEROUS JOURNEY.
TAKE A LOOK AT THE CUBANS, FOR INSTANCE.
THE FOLKS THAT I TALKED TO IN CUIDAD JUAREZ ACROSS FROM  EL PASO, FOR THEM, FOR SOME, IT'S TAKEN THEM A  YEAR-AND-A-HALF JUST TO GET TO THE NORTHERN BORDER, AND  THEY GET SEPARATED ALONG THE WAY.
SO HOW DO YOU REUNITE THAT?
IT'S JUST AN INCREDIBLE  JOURNEY THAT THEY TAKE, AND I DON'T KNOW THAT IF I HAD A  KID THAT I WOULD TAKE THAT CHANCE.
BUT I SEE A LOT OF WOMEN WHO HAVE FAILED TO COME ACROSS,  BUT WHEN THEY SEE THAT THEIR KID MAY HAVE A CHANCE,  THEY'RE WILLING TO RISK THAT, EVEN IF FOR THEM IT  MEANS GOING BACK, BUT THEIR KIDS CAN GO ON AND MAYBE  FIND A BETTER LIFE.
>> Laura: ROBERTO, THANK  YOU SO MUCH FOR THE WORK  THAT YOU DO AND THE STORIES THAT YOU TELL AND FOR BEING  HERE WITH ME TODAY.
>> Roberto: THANK YOU,  LAURA.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT.
AND THANK YOU FOR TALKING  ABOUT THIS MATTER WHICH IS SO IMPORTANT AND DEAR FOR  ME.
>> Gene: WE ALSO RECENTLY  HAD THE CHANCE TO TALK ABOUT THE FINE ART OF PHOTO  JOURNALISM WITH DEAN HANSON, FORMER PHOTO EDITOR AT THE  ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL.
HE RECENTLY RETIRED AFTER A  LONG AND STORIED CAREER THAT SPANNED MORE THAN THREE  DECADES HERE IN NEW MEXICO.
THERE WAS NO WAY WE COULD  FIT ALL OF HIS THOUGHTS AND REFLECTIONS INTO ONE SHOW,  BUT LUCKILY, HE STUCK AROUND IN STUDIO WITH SENIOR  PRODUCER MATT GRUBS TO SHARE SOME EXTRA STORIES AND A FEW  OF HIS FAVORITE IMAGES.
>> Matt: DEAN HANSON,  RECENTLY RETIRED PHOTO EDITOR OF THE ALBUQUERQUE  JOURNAL, THANKS FOR SPENDING SOME EXTRA TIME WITH US.
AS WE THOUGHT WE MIGHT, DURING THE SHOW WE RAN OUT  OF TIME TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF THESE IMAGES.
WHAT IS IT ABOUT SHOOTING EVERY DAY SCENES THAT YOU SO  ENJOY?
>> Dean: WELL, THERE'S A  LOT GOING ON IN THE WORLD, AND THERE IS A WHOLE LOT  MORE GOOD AND DECENCY THAN THERE IS UGLY IN THE WORLD.
UNFORTUNATELY, IN THE NEWS BUSINESS WE TEND TO BRING  YOU THE UGLY.
I NEED TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT  IT'S STILL PRETTY GOOD OUT THERE.
THE THINGS THAT WE AREN'T DWELLING ON THAT ARE TRAGEDY  ARE NORMAL PEOPLE JUST GOING ON ABOUT THEIR NORMAL LIVES,  AND I FIND THAT FASCINATING.
>> Matt: SURE, AND A  PRIVILEGE TO HAVE A PAPER.
THESE ARE NOT JUST PHOTOS  FROM YOUR PERSONAL COLLECTION, THESE ARE THINGS  THAT RAN IN THE PAPER.
SO THERE'S CLEARLY VALUE TO  THAT.
>> Dean: WELL, AND WE'RE SO  LUCKY HERE IN NEW MEXICO AND ALBUQUERQUE IN HAVING A  NEWSPAPER LIKE THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL.
IT DOESN'T BELONG TO A CHAIN.
IT ISN'T OWNED BY A CORPORATION.
ALL THE DECISIONS MADE FOR THIS NEWSPAPER ARE MADE IN  THAT BUILDING ON JEFFERSON.
THAT'S WHY WE'RE ONLY  ACCOUNTABLE TO THE PEOPLE.
WE'RE NOT ACCOUNTABLE TO  SHAREHOLDERS.
THIS IS WHY WE GET TO DO  THINGS WITH PHOTOGRAPHY THAT'S A LITTLE DIFFERENT  THAN OTHER NEWSPAPERS.
AND I'M REALLY THANKFUL THAT  WE STILL HAVE A PLACE FOR THIS KIND OF PHOTOGRAPH IN  OUR NEWSPAPER.
>> Matt: ABSOLUTELY,  ABSOLUTELY.
OBVIOUSLY WE'RE ALL THINKING  ABOUT THE COVID-19 VACCINE, BUT THIS IS THE SIMPLE FLU  MIST THAT FOR KIDS THIS AGE GOES UP THE NOSE,  UNFORTUNATELY.
>> Dean: YES, AND THIS WAS  AN EVENT, I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS PUT ON BY THE GOVERNOR'S  OFFICE OR WHAT, BUT I MEAN, HERE YOU JUST WAIT FOR YOUR  PICTURE.
WHEN KIDS THIS AGE ARE GOING  TO GET SOMETHING SHOT UP THEIR NOSE, I MEAN, HOW EASY  IS IT.
>> Matt: THAT'S TERRIFIC.
I LOVE THAT ONE.
THIS IS ONE THAT YOU POINTED  OUT TO ME.
THERE ARE A LOT OF ELEMENTS  TO THIS.
>> Dean: YES.
ONE OF THESE WOMEN IS A BREAST CANCER SURVIVOR, AND  THE OTHER IS HER FRIEND WHO SUPPORTED HER.
AND I'M NOT GOING TO TELL YOU WHICH IS WHICH.
THEY'RE JUST SO FULL OF LIFE AND SO BEAUTIFUL.
ONE OF THEM HAS THIS MURAL, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU  RECOGNIZE IT, IN THE BACKYARD OF A PHOENIX  RISING, AND YOU MEET PEOPLE AND SPEND TIME WITH PEOPLE  LIKE THIS AND IT JUST MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD.
IT FILLS YOUR TANK.
IT REPLACES EVERYTHING THAT  HAS DRAINED AWAY FROM THE NEGATIVE.
>> Matt: SURE, ABSOLUTELY.
I CAN CERTAINLY SEE THAT.
AND THEN WE HAVE ANOTHER ONE HERE.
SO THIS IS ONE, AS WE  TRANSITION INTO OUR COURT PHASE, THERE'S HUMOR TO BE  FOUND EVERYWHERE.
>> Dean: THERE REALLY IS.
THIS IS DR. PATRICIA McFEELEY WITH, WHAT WAS  IT, THE OFFICE OF THE MEDICAL INVESTIGATOR, AND I  HAD PHOTOGRAPHED HER ON THE STAND WITH HER, YOU KNOW,  DUMMY SKELETON NUMEROUS TIMES POINTING AT THINGS,  BUT THAT'S NOT FUNNY.
HOMICIDE TRIALS AREN'T  FUNNY.
BUT WHEN YOU SEE HER SITTING  IN THE HALLWAY WAITING TO TESTIFY, YOU'RE FINDING SOME  HUMOR IN A DIFFICULT SITUATION.
>> Matt: SURE.
IT'S THAT HUMAN SIDE OF  PEOPLE THAT WE MAY NOT THINK OF.
THIS ONE IS INTERESTING, BECAUSE THIS IS RIGHT AT A  VERDICT, RIGHT?
>> Dean: RIGHT.
THIS IS DOWN IN LOS LUNAS WHEN THE KILLER OF RIO  RANCHO POLICE OFFICER NIGEL BENNER WAS CONVICTED, AND  THESE ARE HIS FELLOW RIO RANCHO POLICE OFFICERS.
I WAS SITTING ON THE BENCH IN FRONT OF THEM LOOKING AT  THE DEFENDANT, AND THEN WHEN THEY READ GUILTY ON ALL  COUNTS, I SWUNG AROUND WITH A DIFFERENT CAMERA, WITH A  WIDE ANGLE LENS, KNOWING THERE'D PROBABLY BE A  REACTION BEHIND ME.
>> Matt: SURE.
BOY, THAT IS TOUGH, BECAUSE YOU'RE RIGHT THERE.
>> Dean: YES.
>> Matt: MAN, THAT IS A TON  OF EMOTION.
THIS ONE, BOY, THIS IS --  >> Dean: I'M STILL NOT SURE HOW THIS CAME TOGETHER.
IT WAS A VIDEO ARRAIGNMENT.
YOU CAN JUST SEE HIM ON THE  TV, THE PERSON ACCUSED OF A CRIME.
AND THIS IS THE AUNT OF THE VICTIM.
FOR SOME REASON, SHE CAME OVER THE RAIL AND WENT AFTER  SOMEONE.
THESE ARE REALLY TOUGH  SITUATIONS WHERE ON ONE SIDE OF THE COURTROOM YOU HAVE  THE FAMILY AND FRIENDS OF THE VICTIM, AND ON THE OTHER  SIDE OF THE COURTROOM YOU HAVE THE FAMILY AND  SUPPORTERS OF THE DEFENDANT, AND THERE'S ALWAYS STUFF  GOING BACK AND FORTH.
AND SECURITY DOES A REALLY  GOOD JOB, BUT OCCASIONALLY THE EMOTIONS JUST GET TOO  MUCH FOR PEOPLE.
>> Matt: SURE, ABSOLUTELY.
THIS ONE WE TALKED ABOUT DURING THE SHOW, BUT WORTH  MENTIONING AGAIN JUST FOR -- I THINK REGARDLESS OF HOW  MUCH ATTENTION YOU PAY TO THE NEWS, THERE'S PROBABLY  ALWAYS THAT ONE KID THAT YOU CAN THINK OF AND THAT ONE  CRIME, AND IT JUST SEEMS TO PLAY OUT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND  AGAIN.
>> Dean: IT DOES.
AND I DON'T KNOW, I GUESS PEOPLE DON'T LEARN LESSONS  FROM OTHERS' MISFORTUNES.
BUT I MEAN, 30, 35 YEARS,  YOU HEAR THESE CRIMES AND YOU HEAR THE HUNT AND YOU  HEAR THE ARREST, AND THEN MONTHS LATER THE TRIALS THAT  GO ON AND ON AND ON.
>> Matt: THERE'S A LOT TO  IT.
>> Dean:   ABSOLUTELY.
>> Matt: SO HERE, YOU'VE  TAKEN YOUR FAIR SHARE OF ANIMAL PICTURES I'M CERTAIN.
THIS ONE I LOVE.
>> Dean: WELL, THIS WAS A  DAY I WAS GOING TO GO TO THE LADD WILDLIFE PRESERVE SOUTH  OF BELEN, AND I THOUGHT, WELL, THIS IS GOING TO BE A  BUST, IT'S OVERCAST AND GRAY.
BECAUSE USUALLY WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO GO DO BIRDS AND  WILDLIFE, YOU WANT BEAUTIFUL SUN AND BLUE SKIES.
WELL, THIS WAY IT WORKED IN MY FAVOR.
SOMEHOW THE LIGHT DISSIPATED THE FOG AND IT LIT THEM FROM  ALL SIDES, AND YOU COULD SEE DETAIL WHICH YOU NORMALLY  WOULDN'T SEE.
SO I'M PLEASED WITH THAT.
IT WAS HARD TO TELL THAT LAST ONE, CATCH UP, CATCH  UP.
OKAY, YOU'LL HAVE TO DO.
>> Matt: THAT'S RIGHT, EXACTLY.
THIS ONE, I KNOW A LOT OF US HAVE SEEN PICTURES OF CLINES  CORNERS, BUT PROBABLY NOT LIKE THIS.
>> Dean: YES.
FOR SOME REASON WE HAD HOAR  FROST, AND I STOPPED AT CLINES CORNERS, AND AS I GOT  OUT OF MY CAR, I SAW ALL THESE -- I GUESS THEY'RE  CROWS.
YOU WOULDN'T SEE RAVENS  TOGETHER LIKE THAT.
BUT FOR SOME REASON, THEY  JUST BELONGED ON THAT TREE AND THEY SPACED THEMSELVES  OUT IN A GOOD WAY.
>> Matt: THAT'S TERRIFIC.
THE BIOPARK ASSIGNMENT, I'M  SURE, IS -- >> Dean: YES, WHEN THE  TASMANIAN DEVILS FIRST CAME IN, I MEAN, THEY'RE LOVELY  CREATURES, AND HE'S NOT QUITE AS IN FOCUS AS I'D  LIKE, BUT THE TEETH ARE SHARP.
WHEN THEY GET ANGRY, THEIR EARS TURN BRIGHT RED AND  THEY HISS, AND I MEAN, HOW CAN YOU NOT LOVE A CREATURE  LIKE THAT.
>> Matt: IT'S FANTASTIC.
SO, SO GOOD.
THIS ONE IS GREAT.
THIS I THOUGHT WAS PICTURE OF A PAINTING.
>> Dean: YES.
NO, THIS WAS JUST AN  EXPERIMENT IN A STUDIO.
I HAD NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE  AND I WANTED TO TRY.
I DID IT IN TOTAL DARKNESS,  OPENED THE SHUTTER, AND THEN I USED A SMALL PEN LIGHT AND  PAINTED AROUND THE FLOWER.
ANYTHING LIT WAS HIT WITH  LIGHT.
WHAT'S DARK DIDN'T GET AS  MUCH LIGHT.
BUT IT WAS A REALLY FUN  TECHNIQUE TO DO, SOMETHING A LITTLE DIFFERENT.
IT GIVES KIND OF A THREE-DIMENSIONAL QUALITY TO  THE PHOTOGRAPH.
>> Matt: ABSOLUTELY.
SO DID THIS RUN IN AN ARTS GUIDE OR A SPECIAL SECTION?
>> Dean: YES, IT WENT WITH OUR, I WANT TO SAY OUR  SPRING HOME AND GARDEN SECTION.
I THINK I DID FOUR DIFFERENT FLOWERS THIS WAY, BUT I LIKE  THE TULIP THE BEST.
>> Matt: YES, THAT'S A  TERRIFIC ONE.
OUR LAST LITTLE BIT THAT  WE'LL TALK ABOUT HERE OBVIOUSLY IS FIRE, WHICH IS  GOING TO BE A BIG PART OF LIFE I WOULD IMAGINE HERE IN  THE NEXT FEW WEEKS FOR US ALL.
THIS IS LAS CONCHAS.
>> Dean: RIGHT, AND THE  FIRE IS BURNING DOWN LOS ALAMOS CANYON FROM VALLES  CALDERA, AND THEY'RE JUST KEEPING AN EYE ON IT TO SEE,  IS IT GOING TO COME THROUGH  LOS ALAMOS AGAIN?
AND THANKFULLY, IT DIDN'T.
BUT THE INTERESTING -- YOU KNOW, THIS IS A PERFECTLY  ADEQUATE PICTURE OF THE FOREST FIRE, BUT THEN I  LOOKED AND I SAW ANOTHER PICTURE IN THERE.
HIS KNEE POINTED RIGHT TO IT.
AND I JUST CAN'T GET OVER THE BEAUTY OF A FOREST FIRE.
I KNOW THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DESTRUCTIVE.
THIS TO ME LOOKS LIKE ALMOST A GOOD FOREST FIRE.
THINGS AREN'T FLARING, THE GROUND IS CLEARING, AND I  THINK IT'LL COME BACK EVEN STRONGER IN THIS CASE.
BUT I JUST LOVED HOW THE SMOKE AND THE HAZE CAME  TOGETHER IN THAT PICTURE.
>> Matt: SURE.
YOU WERE TELLING ME THAT THE ONES THAT MOST OFTEN MAKE  THE NEWS, WHETHER THAT'S THE TV NEWS OR THE PAPER, ARE  THE ONES WITH FLAMES.
>> Dean: RIGHT.
>> Matt: BUT AFTER THE FLAMES ARE GONE, THERE IS  SOMETHING THERE TO BE SEEN, FOR SURE.
>> Dean: THERE REALLY IS.
AND IT'S JUST THE ETHEREAL  BEAUTY OF THE SMOKE AND THE HAZE AND THE LAYERS YOU SEE  IN FRONT OF EACH OTHER.
YOU HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE A  FOREST FIRE CAN BE BEAUTIFUL.
>> Matt: SURE.
WELL, THE LAST THING I  WANTED TO GET TO WAS THIS IDEA OF BEING PHOTO EDITOR,  WHICH YOU WERE FOR YOUR LAST YEARS AT THE JOURNAL.
DURING THE PANDEMIC, HOW DID THAT CHANGE THE WAY YOU  OPERATED, YOUR CONCERN FOR YOUR PHOTOGRAPHERS, THAT  SORT OF THING?
>> Dean: THAT WAS A BIG  CHANGE WHEN IT CAME BASICALLY OUT OF NOWHERE.
I MEAN, WE'RE SHOOTING THE STATE HIGH SCHOOL BASKETBALL  TOURNAMENT, AND THE NEXT THING YOU KNOW THEY'RE  PLAYING IT WITHOUT ANY PEOPLE.
I THINK AT TRANSITION WE SAW A FEW MASKS, AND THEN IT  WENT COMPLETELY AWAY, AND THEN THE QUESTION BECAME,  HOW FAR IS THIS GOING TO GO?
WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO  DIFFERENT?
MY BIGGEST CONCERN WAS  KEEPING THE PHOTOGRAPHERS SAFE.
THEY HAD TO BE OUT IN IT, WORKING IN IT EVERY DAY.
SO WE KIND OF DEVELOPED OUR OWN LITTLE BUBBLE WITHIN THE  DEPARTMENT.
I SWITCHED SCHEDULES SO THEY  WOULD COME IN AT DIFFERENT TIMES AND GO OUT AT  DIFFERENT TIMES, SO THERE WOULD NEVER BE THREE OF US  IN THE OFFICE AT THE SAME TIME.
THEY TOOK VEHICLES HOME.
EVERYWHERE THEY WENT, WE  WERE CONSTANTLY CHECKING IN.
I WOULD SAY TO THEM, YOU  KNOW, HERE'S WHAT I'M GOING TO HAVE YOU DO, OR THIS IS  THE VISUAL POSSIBILITY, ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH THIS?
I TOLD EVERYBODY, IF IN ANY CASE YOU FEEL THE LEAST OR  ANY AMOUNT IN DANGER, JUST WALK AWAY.
AND WE HAD ROBERTO ROSALES WENT OUT TO THE NAVAJO  RESERVATION, EDDIE MOORE WORKED WITHIN THE ACTUAL  EMERGENCY ROOMS OF HOSPITALS, AND WE PRODUCED  SOME PRETTY AMAZING WORK FOR A STAFF OUR SIZE.
I'M VERY PROUD OF THE WORK THEY DID.
NOW WE'RE FULLY IMMUNIZED AND IT'S LIKE WE'VE GONE  THROUGH A GATEWAY AND EVERYTHING HAS CHANGED.
SO NOW WE CAN SEE LIFE COME BACK TO NORMAL, AND WE'LL  SEE WHAT COMES NEXT.
IT'S GOING TO BE A LOT OF  FUN.
>> Matt: ABSOLUTELY.
ABSOLUTELY.
AND IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE  PROBABLY NOT DONE.
YOU HAVE SOME IDEAS FOR  THINGS AT THE JOURNAL.
>> Dean: WELL, YOU KNOW,  IT'S KIND OF INTERESTING.
IN THE PAST, THE PHOTO DEPARTMENT KIND OF TRACKED  THE WEB.
WE WERE ON KIND OF PARALLEL  UNIVERSES.
AND WITH MY LEAVING, THEY'RE  INTEGRATING THE PHOTO DEPARTMENT INTO THE ACTUAL  WEB SO THAT THERE WILL BE BETTER USE OF PHOTOGRAPHS.
AND WE HAVE SUCH A TALENTED STAFF, YOU NEED TO REMEMBER  THAT NEWSPAPERS ARE THE ONES THAT ARE PAYING TO PRODUCE  THE NEWS ABOUT THEIR COMMUNITIES.
FACEBOOK HAS MADE A FORTUNE  MONETIZING THE WORK OF NEWSPAPERS, MUCH TO THE  DETRIMENT OF NEWSPAPERS, SO IT'S REALLY CRITICAL THAT  PEOPLE SUBSCRIBE TO THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL.
ABQJOURNAL.COM.
YOU'LL SEE OUR PHOTOGRAPHS.
A LOT OF WORK THAT DOESN'T GET IN PRINT NOW IS ON WEB  IN THE FORM OF GALLERIES AND SLIDE SHOWS, SO IF YOU'VE  ALWAYS LIKED THE PHOTOGRAPHY IN THE JOURNAL, THERE'S A  LOT OF IT, AND PLEASE LOOK AT OUR PICTURES.
>> Matt: DEAN, WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE, BUT THANK YOU SO  MUCH FOR SPENDING ALL THIS TIME.
WE APPRECIATE IT.
>> Dean: THANK YOU SO MUCH  FOR HAVING ME.
>> Gene: IT'S TIME NOW TO  HEAD OUTSIDE THE STUDIO AS WE BRING YOU ANOTHER EPISODE  OF THE AWARD WINNING SERIES 'OUR LAND: NEW MEXICO'S  ENVIRONMENTAL PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE.'
AND A HEADS UP, YOU CAN NOW FIND ALL THE 'OUR LAND'  REPORTS ON ALL THE TOP STREAMING SERVICES LIKE  ROKU, FIRE TV AND APPLE TV.
THIS MONTH, CORRESPONDENT  LAURA PASKUS TAKES US TO THE CARSON NATIONAL FOREST IN  NORTHERN NEW MEXICO TO LEARN ABOUT A CREATIVE AND  COLLABORATIVE APPROACH TO HANDLING FOREST MANAGEMENT.
>> Laura: I'M LAURA PASKUS.
AND FOR THIS MONTH'S EPISODE  OF 'OUR LAND', WE VISITED THE CARSON NATIONAL FOREST  TO LEARN ABOUT A DIFFERENT TYPE OF FOREST MANAGEMENT  THAT'S BASED ON THE ACEQUIA SYSTEM.
IT'S BASED ON TRADITION AND CULTURE AND MEANT TO HELP  THE FOREST AND THE COMMUNITIES WHO LIVE RIGHT  NEXT TO IT.
>> Laura:   A FEW YEARS AGO, J.R. LOGAN LOOKED OUT ACROSS  HIS BACKYARD IN SAN CRISTOBAL IN NORTHERN, NEW  MEXICO.
IT WAS GETTING ON TOWARD  FALL WHEN HE AND OTHERS WHO RELY ON WOOD TO HEAT THEIR  HOMES DRIVE HOURS TO OTHER PARTS OF THE FOREST.
THEN THEY PAY FOR U.S. FOREST SERVICE PERMITS TO  COLLECT WOOD.
>> J.R.: AND IT JUST MADE  NO SENSE TO ME SITTING IN MY VALLEY THAT I WOULD HAVE TO  GO SO FAR TO GET FIREWOOD WHEN LOOKING LITERALLY OUT  OF MY BACK DOOR THERE'S A BEAUTIFUL STAND OF  PONDEROSAS WHERE THE UNDERGROWTH HAS GROWN IN  THICK AND POSES A HUGE RISK TO THOSE TREES AND TO MY  COMMUNITY AND TO THE WATERSHED.
AND I THOUGHT THERE JUST HAS TO BE A WAY WHERE I CAN, YOU  KNOW, MAKE IT POSSIBLE WHERE WE CAN MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR  ME AND MY NEIGHBORS TO BE ABLE TO CUT THAT WOOD WHICH  IS INCREDIBLY VALUABLE TO US AS FIREWOOD AND IS IN OUR  OWN BACKYARDS AND AT THE SAME TIME MAKE OUR COMMUNITY  AND OUR WATERSHEDS SAFER.
>> Laura: LOGAN MET WITH  ELDERS AND LEADERS IN HIS COMMUNITY.
>> David: TRADITIONALLY, WE'RE A COLLECTIVIST CULTURE  WHERE THE GROUP IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE  INDIVIDUAL.
>> Laura: THEY GOT TO  TALKING ABOUT HOW TO CREATE A FOREST COUNCIL AND  STRUCTURE IT AS A COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT PROJECT.
THEY TALKED ABOUT ACEQUIAS, LAND GRANTS, AND THE LONG  HISTORY OF PARTICIPATORY DEMOCRACY IN NORTHERN NEW  MEXICO.
>> David: THE GOVERNANCE,  INSTEAD OF CREATING A NEW SYSTEM OF GOVERNANCE, LET'S  USE THE OLD ANCIENT INSTITUTIONAL FORMS OF  ORGANIZATION THAT WE'VE HAD HERE FOR CENTURIES, 300-400  YEARS, AND THAT IS THE DISTRIBUTION OF WATER HAS  HAD A VERY APPROPRIATE AND VERY SUCCESSFUL GOVERNANCE  SYSTEM.
THE LAND GRANTS ALSO HAVE  HAD A LONG HISTORY OF GOVERNANCE, VERY DEMOCRATIC,  VERY PARTICIPATORY.
>> Art: PARCIENTE IS WHAT  IT'S CALLED.
A PARCIENTE, WHEN IT COMES  TO A DITCH, IS A PERSON WHO HAS A PIECE OF LAND THAT  NEEDS IRRIGATING.
SO THEY NEEDED A MAYORDOMO T  OVERSEE THAT.
>> Laura: THEY WORKED WITH  THE CARSON NATIONAL FOREST, WROTE A GRANT PROPOSAL,  BASED BYLAWS ON ACEQUIAS AND LAND GRANTS, AND THEY  CREATED THE CERRO NEGRO FOREST COUNCIL.
HERE, THERE ARE ALMOST 300 ACRES OF PINON, JUNIPER AND  SAGE FOREST LANDS BETWEEN THE VILLAGES OF SAN  CRISTOBOL AND VALDEZ THAT NEED TO BE TREATED.
THINNED SO THAT THE FOREST IS HEALTHIER, SO IT’S CLOSER  TO HOW IT WAS BEFORE THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IMPLEMENTED  FIRE SUPPRESSION POLICIES.
>> J.R.: OUR PROJECT IN  PARTICULAR IS DESIGNED TO REMOVE FUELS THAT OTHERWISE  WOULD REALLY RAMP UP AND SUPERCHARGE FIRE BEHAVIOR  WERE WE TO SEE A FIRE OCCUR  IN THIS AREA.
>> Laura: WHEN THE U.S.  GOVERNMENT STOPPED LETTING FORESTS BURN, THEY BECAME  OVERCROWDED WITH SMALLER TREES ALL COMPETING FOR  WATER AND SUNLIGHT AND BECOMING ADDITIONAL FUEL FOR  WILD FIRES, FEEDING THEM ALONG WITH DROUGHT AND  RISING TEMPERATURES TO BURN HOTTER AND BIGGER THAN IN  THE PAST.
>> J.R.: THIS ISN'T A  RESTORATION PROJECT LIKE YOU MIGHT SEE IN PONDEROSA PINE  WHERE WE'RE TRULY RESTORING AN ECOSYSTEM TO A PLACE THAT  IT WAS MILLENNIA AGO.
RATHER, THIS IS RESTORATION  FOR THE BENEFIT OF PEOPLE, BUT ALSO THE BENEFIT FOR THE  ENVIRONMENT IN THE SENSE THAT WE'RE PREVENTING WHAT  WOULD OTHERWISE BE AN UNCHARACTERISTIC FIRE,  ESPECIALLY AS WE SEE, YOU KNOW, THE CLIMATE GETTING  WARMER, HOTTER AND DRIER OVER THE LONG RUN.
>> Laura: THE FOREST SERVICE AND THE COUNCIL  DIVIDED THE FOREST HERE INTO ONE-ACRE BLOCKS AND ASSIGNED  THEM TO LEÑEROS, OR WOOD CUTTERS.
TREES TO REMAIN ARE MARKED, AND THE OTHERS CAN BE CUT.
A MAYORDOMO OVERSEES THE WORK AND LEÑEROS CAN USE THE  WOOD AT HOME OR SELL IT, AND THE COUNCIL PAYS THEM $300  AN ACRE FOR THEIR WORK.
THAT’S LESS THAN WHAT THE  FOREST SERVICE PAYS CONTRACTORS.
AND ALTHOUGH THE WORK CAN BE SLOWER, IT’S A MODEL FOR  OTHER PLACES, TOO.
ALREADY COUNCILS HAVE POPPED  UP IN SOUTHERN TAOS COUNTY.
>> Richard: MY ROLE IN THIS  IS I'M BASICALLY THE LEÑERO,  THE GUY THAT CUTS IT AND BUCKS IT, TAKES IT HOME,  CHOPS IT UP, AND I USE IT FOR HEATING MY HOME.
IT'S MY SOURCE OF ENERGY FOR HEATING BACK AT THE HOUSE.
BUT, YEAH, I'VE BEEN ON THIS AND I'VE ALREADY  ACCOMPLISHED THREE ONE-ACRE BLOCKS, AND I'M CURRENTLY  WORKING JUST ABOUT FINISHING UP MY FOURTH, AND I'VE GOT  YET ANOTHER ONE THAT I'VE BEEN ASSIGNED THAT I'VE GOT  TO GET STARTED ON AND TRY TO GET THAT DONE BEFORE THE END  OF THE WINTER.
>> Richard: HAVING TO DRIVE  15 MINUTES AS OPPOSED TO TWO HOURS TO GET A GOOD LOAD OF  THE BEST WOOD THAT I CAN SAY THERE IS TO BURN, PINON,  THIS IS AWESOME.
I'M REALLY GLAD THIS OPENED  UP, BECAUSE I WAS GETTING KIND OF WORRIED ABOUT  FINDING PLACES TO GO GET WOOD.
>> Laura: FOR LOGAN AND LEÑEROS LIKE CORDOVA, THEIR  TIME IN THE FOREST ISN'T JUST ABOUT CUTTING WOOD,  IT'S ABOUT CONNECTING WITH THE PAST AND SPENDING TIME  WITH FAMILY.
>> Richard: SOMETIMES I  JUST COME OUT HERE AND JUST SIT AROUND.
I WORK REALLY SLOW.
AND   I'M ALWAYS LOOKING FOR DEER, OF COURSE.
NOW THAT IT'S SO OPEN, AFTER THEY'VE CLEANED THIS UP, YOU  CAN REALLY SEE MORE OF AN ABUNDANCE OF DEER THAN WHAT  WE USED TO IN THE PAST.
>> Laura: HISTORICALLY THE  RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE U.S. FOREST SERVICE AND  COMMUNITIES IN NORTHERN NEW MEXICO HAS BEEN FRAUGHT, TO  SAY THE LEAST.
THE FEDERAL AGENCY TOOK OVER  COMMON LANDS WHEN IT WAS FORMED IN THE EARLY 20th  CENTURY, PUSHING PEOPLE OFF THEIR GRAZING LANDS AND  HUNTING GROUNDS, REQUIRING PERMITS FOR WOOD CUTTING AND  PINON GATHERING, CLOSING ACCESS TO THE FORESTS PEOPLE  HAD VISITED FOR GENERATIONS.
THIS COUNCIL IS A STEP  TOWARD HEALING NOT JUST THE LAND, BUT COMMUNITIES.
>> Art: I THINK THIS SITUATION RIGHT NOW IS  REALLY NICE IN THIS RESPECT THAT WE'RE WORKING WITH THE  FOREST SERVICE.
THE FOREST SERVICE IS  COOPERATING WITH US, WE'RE COOPERATING WITH THEM, AND  THINGS ARE GETTING DONE.
IN SOME CASES, NOT IN ALL  CASES, IS WHERE A FAMILY COMES OUT, YOU KNOW, A MOM  AND DAD AND THEY BRING TWO OR THREE KIDS WITH THEM, AND  THEY'RE ALL HELPING.
AND THEN, OF COURSE, THEY  TAKE THEIR LITTLE BREAKS FOR THEIR LITTLE LUNCH OR  WHATEVER, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, AMAZING.
IT'S LIKE NICE.
>> Laura: BEING A LEÑERO IS  HARD WORK, BUT THERE’S AN ART TO IT, TOO.
AND JOY AT  BEING HOME IN THE FOREST.
>> Richard: WELL, LET'S SAY  THIS.
THIS, IN A SENSE, IS A  RANCHO, RIGHT?
RANCHO DE LEÑA DE PIÑON.
SO WHY DON’T WE SAY: (SINGING IN SPANISH)  ALLÁ EN EL RANCHO GRANDE, ALLÁ DONDE VIVÍA.
HABÍA UNA  RANCHERITA, QUE ALEGRE ME DECÍA.
QUE ALEGRE ME DECÍA.
THERE YOU GO.
FROM THERE ON, IT COSTS A  DOLLAR!
[LAUGHING]  >> Laura: FOR 'OUR LAND' AND NEW MEXICO InFOCUS,  I'M LAURA PASKUS.
>> Gene:   THE IMPACT OF LAST YEAR'S PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION  CONTINUES TO REVERBERATE TODAY.
AS SOME STATE LAWMAKERS AND THE U.S. CONGRESS CONTINUE  TO DEBATE VOTING ACCESS AND INTEGRITY ISSUES, WE WANTED  TO LOOK BACK AT AN INTERVIEW WE DID WITH RACHEL  KLEINFELD, A SANTA FE RESIDENT AND SENIOR FELLOW  AT THE CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE.
HER RESEARCH FOCUSES ON REDUCING VIOLENCE  SURROUNDING ELECTIONS, BUT SHE ALSO SPENT SOME EXTRA  TIME WITH CORRESPONDENT RUSSELL CONTRERAS TO DISCUSS  THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT, HOW IT PLAYED INTO  WHAT HAPPENED AT THE POLLS IN 2020, AND THE CONTINUING  POWER OF NONVIOLENT PROTEST.
>> Russell: RACHEL, THANK  YOU FOR JOINING US FOR THIS  WEB EXTRA.
WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.
YOU'VE TALKED AND WRITTEN ABOUT NONVIOLENT RESISTANCE,  THAT IT CAN BE THE MOST SUCCESSFUL DRIVERS OF SOCIAL  CHANGE IF THE MESSAGE IS BROAD AND IT APPEALS TO  ENOUGH PEOPLE.
HOW DOES THE BLACK LIVES  MATTER AND THE PROTESTS AFTER THE MURDER OF GEORGE  FLOYD AND THE SHOOTING OF JACOB BLAKE SEEM TO YOU  THROUGH THAT LENS?
>> Dr. Kleinfeld: SO THE  TRAGIC DEATHS OF GEORGE FLOYD AND SO MANY OTHER  AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN THIS COUNTRY, IF THERE'S BEEN ANY  POSSIBLE SILVER LINING FINALLY HELPED MANY OTHER  AMERICANS UNDERSTAND THE INCREDIBLY UNEQUAL JUSTICE  THAT THIS COUNTRY HAS METED OUT FOR A LONG TIME.
AND THAT IS GOOD, BECAUSE WHAT WE SEE FROM OVERSEAS IS  THAT WHEN YOU REALLY HAVE SUCCESS AS A SOCIAL  MOVEMENT, YOU DO TWO THINGS.
YOU HAVE A BROAD BASE OF  PEOPLE.
THAT'S ABOUT NUMBERS, BUT  IT'S ALSO ABOUT CROSSING SILOS.
SO IN OUR COUNTRY, THAT WOULD MEAN BLACK AND WHITE,  THAT WOULD MEAN NATIVE AMERICAN AND RURAL AND  URBAN, AND PEOPLE WHO ARE DEMOCRATIC AND PEOPLE WHO  ARE REPUBLICAN.
THE REASON THAT THAT KIND OF  BROAD BASE MATTERS IS THAT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT NUMBERS.
IN HIGHLY POLARIZED SOCIETIES, WHICH IS WHERE  YOU SEE THAT KIND OF HIGHLY UNEQUAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, IN  HIGHLY POLARIZED SOCIETIES, IF YOU HAVE A NARRATIVE THAT  ONLY REACHES YOUR SIDE OF THE POLARIZED DIVIDE, YOUR  NARRATIVE WILL BE DISMISSED BY THE OTHER SIDE AND YOU  WILL NOT BREAK THROUGH AND YOU WILL NOT SUCCEED.
SO WHAT SOCIAL MOVEMENTS HAVE TO DO IS CREATE  NARRATIVES THAT BRIDGE THOSE DIVIDES, AND THAT MAKES THEM  BIGGER, BUT IT ALSO MEANS THAT THEY CAN BE HEARD.
AND WHAT WE SAW AFTER GEORGE FLOYD'S DEATH WAS FOR THE  FIRST TIME A NARRATIVE ABOUT INEQUITY AND THE PROBLEMS IN  OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM FINALLY BREAKING THROUGH TO MANY  WHITES WHO HADN'T BELIEVED IT BEFORE, AND THAT'S A REAL  SOURCE OF HOPE.
>> Russell: NOW, I WAS IN  KENOSHA EARLIER THIS YEAR, RIGHT AFTER THE CITY WAS HIT  WITH RIOTS, AND I CAN STILL SMELL THE FIRE FROM WHEN I  GOT THERE, AND I KEPT THINKING ABOUT MILAN  KUNDERA'S NOVELS ABOUT CZECHOSLOVAKIA DURING THE  COMMUNIST OCCUPATION, AND I WAS HIT WITH THIS  EXISTENTIAL CRISIS AND THIS QUESTION FOR ME, THAT  SOMETIMES VIOLENCE IS INEVITABLE TO FIGHT SYSTEMIC  INEQUALITY.
IS THAT FAIR?
I MEAN, IT'S SOMETHING THAT REALLY STRUCK ME.
IS VIOLENCE SOMETIMES THE ONLY ANSWER TO SYSTEMIC  INEQUALITY, TO OVERTHROW IT?
OR IS THAT JUST A CYNICAL  VIEW FROM OUR 20th CENTURY MARXISM AND CAPITALISM CALL  TO WAR DICHOTOMY?
>> Dr. Kleinfeld: WELL.
WHAT THE RESEARCH SHOWS, AND HERE I'M DRAWING ON ERICA  CHENOWETH AND MARIA STEPHAN, WHO ARE REALLY THE MOST ABLE  RESEARCHERS -- ERICA IS NOW AT HARVARD AND HAS GONE ON  TO DO JUST A PLETHORA OF RESEARCH ON THIS -- IS THAT  VIOLENT PROTEST FAILS FAR, FAR MORE OVEN THAN  NONVIOLENT PROTEST, AND SHE'S CATEGORIZED THIS  ACROSS THE 20th CENTURY, DONE THE NUMBERS, AND SHE'S  ALSO DONE THE DEEPER RESEARCH, THE CASE STUDIES  AND SO ON.
AND WHAT SHE'S FOUND IS THAT  IT'S NOT JUST THAT IT FAILS SYSTEMICALLY, IT'S THAT IT  FAILS FOR A REASON, AND THE REASON IS THAT AS YOUR  PROTESTS BECOME MORE VIOLENT, YOU LOSE THAT BROAD  BASE THAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT BEFORE.
SO, YOU KNOW, I'M A MOTHER OF TWO KIDS, I BELIEVE  STRONGLY IN A LOT OF PROGRESSIVE SOCIAL CHANGE,  BUT I ALSO WANT TO KEEP MY KIDS ALIVE.
SO IF A PROTEST BECOMES VIOLENT, I'M NOT GOING TO GO  OUT TO IT ANYMORE.
AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS TO A  LOT OF PEOPLE.
AS VIOLENCE STARTS  HAPPENING, WHAT YOU START GETTING IS A SHRINKING OF  THE PEOPLE WILLING TO PROTEST.
THAT SHRINKING ALLOWS THE SECURITY SERVICES AND ALSO  THE PEOPLE IN POWER TO ISOLATE THE PROTESTERS, TO  CREATE COUNTER-NARRATIVES AGAINST THEM, AND TO ARREST  MORE OF THEM, TO SILENCE MORE OF THEM, BECAUSE  THERE'S FEWER OF THEM, AND TO CREATE WEDGE STRATEGIES  AGAINST THEM.
SO WHEN YOU CREATE VIOLENCE  AS PART OF YOUR PROTEST, YOU LOSE A LOT OF NOT JUST THE  MORAL HIGH GROUND, BUT THE ACTUAL PEOPLE WHO ARE  ENABLING YOU TO SUCCEED, AND THAT IS UNFORTUNATE.
AND IT'S UNFORTUNATE PARTICULARLY FOR PEOPLE WHO  FEEL SO STRONGLY ABOUT THIS CAUSE THAT THEY THINK, WELL,  I'LL JUST COMMIT SOME PROPERTY VIOLENCE, BECAUSE  EVEN PROPERTY VIOLENCE HAS THIS EFFECT OF POLARIZING  AND NARROWING THE OTHER SIDE.
PEOPLE FEEL PROPERTY VIOLENCE IS VIOLENCE AGAINST  THEMSELVES, IN A CERTAIN WAY.
SO IT'S VERY IMPORTANT, AND IT'S A VERY HARD MESSAGE FOR  SOME PEOPLE TO TAKE IN WHEN PEOPLE ARE ANGRY TO BE TOLD  THAT THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO USE VIOLENCE.
IT'S HARD FOR SOME PEOPLE, BUT IT'S WHAT ALL THE  RESEARCH SHOWS.
>> Russell: ARE YOU HOPEFUL  FOR THE 2024 ELECTION THAT WE WON'T BE AS TENSE AS WE  WERE THIS TIME AROUND?
>> Dr. Kleinfeld: YOU KNOW,  I THINK IT'LL HELP A LOT TO HAVE A MORE MODERATE VOICE  IN POWER, BUT I WOULD SAY I'M CAUTIOUS ABOUT WHAT  HAPPENS IN 2024.
IN MY OWN RESEARCH IN OTHER  COUNTRIES THAT HAVE HAD A LEADER LIKE TRUMP, WHICH IN  POLITICAL SCIENCE PARLANCE WE WOULD CALL AN  AUTHORITARIAN POPULIST LEADER, A POPULIST BECAUSE  HE IS TRYING TO APPEAL DIRECTLY TO THE PEOPLE  AGAINST THE INSTITUTIONS OF DEMOCRACY, BASICALLY SAYING,  YOU DON'T NEED THOSE INSTITUTIONS, COME STRAIGHT  TO ME, I CAN SORT OF BREAK THE INSTITUTIONS AND GET  THINGS DONE, AND AN AUTHORITARIAN BECAUSE HE  WANTS TO CONCENTRATE POWER IN HIMSELF, AS WELL.
AND SO THAT KIND OF ANTI-ELITE CONCENTRATION OF  POWER MESSAGE PUTS HIM IN THAT CATEGORY.
WHEN YOU SEE OTHER AUTHORITARIAN POPULISTS IN  OTHER COUNTRIES, WHAT YOU SEE IS EITHER THEY WIN  TWICE -- THAT'S WHAT YASCHA MOUNK'S RESEARCH SHOWS, THEY  OFTEN WIN A SECOND TERM.
IN THE CASES WHERE THEY  DON'T WIN A SECOND TERM, YOU OFTEN GET A CENTRIST WHO  FOLLOWS.
THAT CENTRIST IS NOT VERY  SATISFYING TO A LOT OF THE ELECTORATE.
THE SIDE THAT WAS ON THE SIDE OF THE AUTHORITARIAN  POPULIST IS KEPT GOING BY THE DIRECT MESSAGING TO THE  PEOPLE, WHETHER IT'S LEFT OR RIGHT, WHETHER YOU'RE  TALKING ABOUT A CHÁVEZ IN VENEZUELA OR A BERLUSCONI IN  ITALY, THAT DIRECT MESSAGING CONTINUES AND RILES UP THE  BASE, AND THE PEOPLE ON THE SIDE OF THE ELECTED LEADER  FEEL LIKE THEY'RE NOT GETTING WHAT THEY REALLY  WANTED, WHICH WAS A FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FIGHT.
YOU KNOW, THEY WANTED TO BRING THE FIGHT TO THE OTHER  SIDE, AND INSTEAD THEY'RE GETTING MORE MODERATION  OFTEN BECAUSE OF WHAT WE ARE LIKELY TO FACE HERE, WHICH  IS A SPLIT SENATE/PRESIDENTIAL.
YOU KNOW, TWO DIFFERENT PARTIES IN POWER.
AND SO THEY END UP ONE-TERMERS.
AND THEN WHAT YOU TEND TO SEE IS A BOUNCING BACK AND  FORTH BETWEEN DIFFERENT POLARIZED SIDES.
SO VERY RIGHT, VERY LEFT.
VERY RIGHT, VERY LEFT.
ITALY PERFECTED THIS BY ELECTING BOTH THE VERY RIGHT  AND THE VERY LEFT AT THE SAME TIME, AND THEY GOT SORT  OF A SINGLE GOVERNMENT THAT BROUGHT TOGETHER THEIR  NATIVIST PARTY AND THEIR KIND OF FAR LEFT PARTY IN  THE SAME GOVERNMENT, WHICH LASTED FOR, IN TYPICAL  ITALIAN FASHION, JUST A COUPLE YEARS.
SO HOPEFULLY WE WILL GET BETTER, BUT THE RESEARCH  SUGGESTS THAT IS NOT INCREDIBLY LIKELY AND THAT  THERE'S CHANGES THAT WE NEED TO MAKE TO CHANGE THAT  DYNAMIC.
I REALLY THINK THAT THE  RANKED CHOICE VOTING THAT SANTA FE HAS PASSED AND THAT  A LOT OF OTHER COUNTIES IN NEW MEXICO ARE INTERESTED IN  HOLDS ONE KEY, BECAUSE IT'S A DEPOLARIZING MECHANISM.
YOU DON'T VOTE SOLELY FOR A DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN, YOU  GET TO PICK YOUR FLAVOR OF DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN, AND  THAT ALLOWS FOR MUCH MORE RESPONSIVENESS TO AN  ELECTORATE, AND THAT KIND OF STRUCTURAL CHANGE, IF IT  PASSES IN OTHER STATES AND MOVES UP, CAN HELP TAKE  THESE PARTIES OUT OF THE HARDEST CORE, YOU KNOW,  TRUMPESTS AND SO ON AND MOVE THEM TO SOMETHING THAT'S A  LITTLE MORE REASONABLE.
>> Russell: RACHEL, THANK  YOU JOINING US TODAY.
>> Rachel: THANK YOU SO  MUCH.
>> Gene:   THE BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS FROM A YEAR  AGO ALSO BROUGHT TO THE SURFACE NEW MEXICO'S  COMPLICATED HISTORY OF COLONIALISM, SOMETHING THAT  WAS TOP OF MIND FOR MANY PEOPLE THIS WEEK AS WE  CELEBRATED THE FOURTH OF JULY.
NOW, BACK IN OCTOBER OF LAST YEAR, WE TALKED ABOUT  CONTROVERSIAL STATUES THAT HONOR THE LEGACY OF SPANISH  CONQUISTADORS.
ONE OF OUR GUESTS WAS  VANESSA FONSECA-CHÁVEZ, A PROFESSOR AT ARIZONA STATE  UNIVERSITY.
PART OF HER CONVERSATION  WITH CORRESPONDENT RUSSELL CONTRERAS HAD TO DO WITH A  HISTORY SHE LEARNED GROWING UP IN RURAL NEW MEXICO AND  HOW THAT IMPACTED HER ACADEMIC WORK.
WE DIDN'T HAVE TIME FOR IT IN THAT SHOW, BUT WANTED TO  BRING YOU THOSE THOUGHTS THIS WEEK AS THEY SEEM  ESPECIALLY RELEVANT.
>> Russell: THANK YOU  DR. FONSECA-CHÁVEZ FOR JOINING US AGAIN.
YOU GREW UP IN GRANTS, NEW MEXICO, IN A HISPANIC  FAMILY.
WHAT KIND OF CONVERSATIONS  DID YOU HAVE GROWING UP ABOUT NEW MEXICO'S PAST  BEFORE YOU BECAME A SCHOLAR IN TERMS OF THIS HISPANIC  COLONIAL TRADITIONS?
WAS THIS A CONVERSATION THAT  YOU HAD IN YOUR FAMILY, OR WERE YOU EVEN AWARE OF IT?
>> Dr. Chávez: ACTUALLY, I PROBABLY WASN'T EVEN REALLY  AWARE OF IT GROWING UP IN GRANTS.
I KNEW THAT OÑATE HAD BEEN IN THAT AREA, I KNEW THAT I  LIVED IN A FORMER URANIUM MINING BOOM TOWN, I KNEW  THAT WHERE I LIVED JUST OUTSIDE OF GRANTS IN A  DOUBLE-WIDE TRAILER OFF OF I-40 WAS PREVIOUSLY THE  CARROT CAPITAL OF THE WORLD.
THEY GREW A LOT OF CARROTS  IN THAT REGION.
THE SOIL WAS PERFECT FOR  THAT.
SO I KNEW ALL THESE SORT OF  LITTLE THINGS ABOUT THE REGION.
IN MY IMMEDIATE FAMILY, WE DIDN'T TALK A LOT ABOUT  THOSE THINGS.
MY GRANDMOTHER LIVED IN GALLUP, NEW MEXICO, AND SO  WE OFTEN TOOK TRIPS TO GALLUP.
SO I THINK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO,  GROWING UP IN A HISPANIC FAMILY, YOU TEND TO LIVE  THESE EXPERIENCES RATHER THAN SIT DOWN AND HAVE DEEP  CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THEM.
SO WHEN THEY LIVED IN -- WE  HAD MOVED TO POJOAQUE WHEN I WAS IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL,  AND IT WASN'T DUAL LANGUAGE PROGRAMS THAT WERE IN PLACE,  IT WAS JUST THERE WAS A CULTURAL COMPONENT TO OUR  LEARNING.
SO ONCE A WEEK WE WOULD GO  TO SENORA VALDEZ'S CLASS AND WE WOULD SING SPANISH SONGS.
WE WOULD WRITE IT -- I HAVE A LITTLE NOTEBOOK FROM 3rd  GRADE THAT SAYS, LIKE, ACIAS NUEVO MEXICO, AND IT'S SORT  OF LIKE A WEIRD COMPILATION OF MY, LIKE, SUBSTANDARD  BILINGUAL SKILLS AT THE TIME.
AND I'M LIKE, UNA MES WE WENT TO GO FISHING AND WE  CAUGHT UMPAS, YOU KNOW.
SO IT WAS AN ATTEMPT FOR US  TO CONNECT WITH OUR CULTURAL HERITAGE, BUT IN A WAY THAT  DIDN'T SEEM FORCED.
AND MY TEACHER IN 3rd  GRADE, HIS NAME WAS MR. VALDEZ, HE WAS FROM  TIERRA ARMARILLA, AND I REMEMBER HIM BEING IN CLASS  WITH HIS GUITAR SINGING LA BAMBA.
AND SO WE WERE ALWAYS VERY IMMERSED IN THE CULTURE, BUT  I DON'T REMEMBER HAVING LIKE CRITICAL CONVERSATIONS ABOUT  IT, AND IT WASN'T UNTIL I GOT TO UNM WHERE, LIKE I  SAID, I STARTED HAVING VERY VISCERAL RESPONSES TO WHAT  WAS GOING ON AROUND ME AND I THINK THAT SORT OF  DETERMINED WHAT MY SCHOLARLY TRAJECTORY WAS GOING TO BE.
>> Russell: NOW, WE WERE HAVING A VISCERAL DEBATE IN  THE STREETS IN ALBUQUERQUE AND IN SANTA FE AROUND THESE  MONUMENTS, BUT WHAT IS IT LIKE IN THE ACADEMY WITH  YOUR WORK FROM THE OÑATE PROJECT TO YOUR CURRENT  BOOK, ARE THERE SCHOLARS THAT ARE -- IS THE ACADEMY  HAVING THE SAME VISCERAL DEBATES AMONGST THEMSELVES,  OR DOES THIS SEEM TO BE THE DIRECTION THAT THE  SCHOLARSHIP IS GOING AROUND THIS DEBATE IN NEW MEXICO  AND THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST?
>> Vanessa: THERE'S A LOT  OF SCHOLARS THAT HAVE BEEN DOING THIS GREAT WORK.
MICHAEL TRUJILLO, YOLANDA LEYBA, INDIVIDUALS  THROUGHOUT THE SOUTHWEST WHO ARE RESPONDING TO THE SORT  OF COLONIAL STATUES AND MONUMENTS.
ONE OF THE CONVERSATIONS THAT I WAS HAVING YESTERDAY  WHICH I THOUGHT WAS PRETTY INTERESTING WAS THAT THIS IS  THE WORK THAT WE HAVE SIGNED UP TO DO.
THIS IS OUR JOB, THIS IS WHAT WE'VE DEDICATED  OURSELVES TO DO, TO DO THE SCHOLARSHIP AND THE RESEARCH  THAT HELPS PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT OF WHAT'S GOING  ON.
NOW, WE'RE NOT COMMUNITY  ACTIVISTS.
COMMUNITY ACTIVISTS HAVE A  SEPARATE ROLE.
BUT THERE ARE ALSO  OPPORTUNITIES FOR PEOPLE WHO DO SCHOLARSHIP AND COMMUNITY  ACTIVISTS TO WORK TOGETHER IN DIFFERENT WAYS SO THAT WE  CAN COME TO A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT'S  HAPPENING.
IT'S DIFFICULT, LIKE I SAID,  TO NOT BE PHYSICALLY IN NEW MEXICO AND VIEWING THESE  THINGS AS SOMEONE WHO IS INTERESTED IN ORAL HISTORY,  THE STENOGRAPHY, THE SORT OF FIELD WORK THAT IS IMPORTANT  TO UNDERSTAND IN THE CONTEXT, RIGHT, AND INSTEAD  YOU GET TO READ WHAT'S BEEN WRITTEN IN THE NEWSPAPERS,  WHAT FRIENDS HAVE SHARED WITH YOU, VIDEOS THAT THEY  SHARE WITH YOU AND ASK YOU NOT TO SHARE WITH ANYBODY  ELSE.
SO YOU DO HAVE SOME KIND OF  CONTEXT FROM BEING OUTSIDE OF NEW MEXICO, BUT IT'S NOT  THE SAME AS BEING A COMMUNITY ACTIVIST.
BUT I HAVE TO TELL MYSELF AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU'RE  NOT A COMMUNITY ACTIVIST, YOU'RE A PROFESSOR THAT  WORKS IN AN INSTITUTION AND YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT KIND OF  ACTIVIST AGENDA.
>> Russell: THANK YOU,  DR. FONSECA-CHÁVEZ, FOR JOINING US.
WE APPRECIATE IT.
>> Vanessa: THANKS, RUSS.
>> Gene: THE CONVERSATION CONTINUES THROUGHOUT THE  WEEK ON ALL OF OUR NEW MEXICO INFOCUS SOCIAL MEDIA  PLATFORMS.
WE INVITE YOU TO JOIN US  WHEREVER YOU TEND TO BE MOST ACTIVE ONLINE: FACEBOOK,  YOUTUBE, TWITTER OR INSTAGRAM.
NOW, WE’RE ALWAYS BRINGING YOU ADDITIONAL CONTENT  THERE, MUCH LIKE WHAT YOU SAW THIS WEEK, AND WE ALSO  LOVE TO HEAR YOUR IDEAS ABOUT ISSUES WE SHOULD BE  COVERING OR PEOPLE WE SHOULD BE TALKING TO.
WE VALUE AND APPRECIATE ALL OF YOUR THOUGHTS AND  FEEDBACK, BOTH THE GOOD AND LET’S SAY THE MORE  CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS.
THEY ALL HELP US MAKE A  BETTER SHOW EACH AND EVERY WEEK.
THANKS AGAIN FOR JOINING US AND FOR STAYING INFORMED AND  ENGAGED.
WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT  WEEK, IN FOCUS.
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AND VIEWERS LIKE YOU.