1 00:00:00,633 --> 00:00:03,403 [upbeat music] 2 00:00:03,503 --> 00:00:05,438 - [Narrator] This is NC Spin. 3 00:00:05,538 --> 00:00:07,841 An unrehearsed discussion on issues of interest 4 00:00:07,941 --> 00:00:09,275 to North Carolinian. 5 00:00:09,376 --> 00:00:12,078 Now, here is your moderator, Tom Campbell. 6 00:00:12,178 --> 00:00:13,580 [upbeat music] 7 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,017 - Thank you for tuning in this special edition of NC Spin. 8 00:00:17,117 --> 00:00:19,185 Everything else about 2020 has been strange, 9 00:00:19,285 --> 00:00:21,654 so we wanted to try to put things in perspective. 10 00:00:21,755 --> 00:00:24,057 This show is gonna take a look at North Carolina 11 00:00:24,157 --> 00:00:26,826 yesterday, today and tomorrow. 12 00:00:26,926 --> 00:00:28,795 We're fortunate to have a special panel 13 00:00:28,895 --> 00:00:30,730 to help us in getting that perspective. 14 00:00:30,830 --> 00:00:32,532 So let's introduce them to you. 15 00:00:32,632 --> 00:00:34,000 We began with Mike Walden, 16 00:00:34,100 --> 00:00:36,536 who is the William Neal Reynolds distinguished 17 00:00:36,636 --> 00:00:40,006 Professor of economics at NC State University. 18 00:00:40,106 --> 00:00:43,309 Jim Leloudis, who is an Associate Dean of Honors 19 00:00:43,410 --> 00:00:46,579 and a History Professor at UNC in Chapel Hill 20 00:00:46,679 --> 00:00:48,848 and director of the James Johnson Center 21 00:00:48,948 --> 00:00:50,283 for Graduate Excellence. 22 00:00:50,383 --> 00:00:52,252 And they're joined by as usual 23 00:00:52,352 --> 00:00:55,455 John Hood, syndicated columnist and author 24 00:00:55,555 --> 00:00:58,858 and Chris Fitzsimon Director of the State's Newsroom. 25 00:00:58,958 --> 00:01:01,161 We're gonna begin our uninterrupted discussion 26 00:01:01,261 --> 00:01:04,731 after these brief messages from our underwriters. 27 00:01:04,831 --> 00:01:07,467 - [Narrator] Farmville steeped in Eastern Carolina tradition 28 00:01:07,567 --> 00:01:09,002 yet surprisingly sophisticated. 29 00:01:09,102 --> 00:01:11,171 In Farmville, find a French bakery, 30 00:01:11,271 --> 00:01:12,939 a furniture, school glassblowing, 31 00:01:13,039 --> 00:01:14,607 great shops and restaurants. 32 00:01:14,707 --> 00:01:17,343 East of I-95, in the middle of everything, 33 00:01:17,444 --> 00:01:19,045 find it first in Farmville. 34 00:01:20,246 --> 00:01:21,915 - In more than 21 years on NC Spin, 35 00:01:22,015 --> 00:01:24,217 I never endorsed a product or sponsor, 36 00:01:24,317 --> 00:01:26,152 but I volunteered to do this message 37 00:01:26,252 --> 00:01:28,054 for Family Physicians. 38 00:01:28,154 --> 00:01:29,456 Over the past 40 years, 39 00:01:29,556 --> 00:01:32,258 my family doctor could quickly diagnose my illnesses 40 00:01:32,358 --> 00:01:34,327 because he knew my medical history. 41 00:01:34,427 --> 00:01:36,362 Evidence suggests I'll live longer, 42 00:01:36,463 --> 00:01:37,864 have a higher quality of life 43 00:01:37,964 --> 00:01:40,567 and save 33% on healthcare costs. 44 00:01:40,667 --> 00:01:42,569 I believe in my trusted relationship 45 00:01:42,669 --> 00:01:44,170 with my family physician. 46 00:01:44,270 --> 00:01:45,371 - [ Narrator] Family Physicians, 47 00:01:45,472 --> 00:01:47,807 your trusted healthcare advisor for life. 48 00:01:50,543 --> 00:01:53,813 - Your life is more flexible and efficient than ever. 49 00:01:53,913 --> 00:01:55,381 And your energy is too. 50 00:01:55,482 --> 00:01:57,517 See how North Carolina's electric cooperatives 51 00:01:57,617 --> 00:01:59,152 are building a brighter future 52 00:01:59,252 --> 00:02:00,887 for the rural communities we serve. 53 00:02:00,987 --> 00:02:04,991 @ncelectricCooperatives.com/Bri. 54 00:02:05,091 --> 00:02:06,626 - Let's begin the Spin. 55 00:02:06,726 --> 00:02:09,162 I'd like for us to focus our comments on this show 56 00:02:09,262 --> 00:02:11,898 on the period BC, before COVID 57 00:02:11,998 --> 00:02:13,366 WC with COVID 58 00:02:13,466 --> 00:02:15,535 and AC after COVID. 59 00:02:15,635 --> 00:02:17,303 Not so much for the acronyms. 60 00:02:17,403 --> 00:02:18,771 Let's get started. 61 00:02:18,872 --> 00:02:19,906 Jim Leloudis, 62 00:02:20,006 --> 00:02:22,075 North Carolina's history has experienced 63 00:02:22,175 --> 00:02:23,877 many significant events. 64 00:02:23,977 --> 00:02:25,678 I'm thinking about civil war, 65 00:02:25,778 --> 00:02:28,681 reconstruction, the 1918 Spanish flu, 66 00:02:28,781 --> 00:02:30,016 the great depression. 67 00:02:30,116 --> 00:02:31,584 And prior to March of this year, 68 00:02:31,684 --> 00:02:34,387 where would you say we were historically? 69 00:02:35,788 --> 00:02:37,257 - Well, well Tom, you decide to start 70 00:02:37,357 --> 00:02:38,825 with the easy question first, right? 71 00:02:38,925 --> 00:02:40,360 - Of course yes, yes. 72 00:02:40,460 --> 00:02:43,463 - Yeah, I think I'll take you up on where you started that. 73 00:02:43,563 --> 00:02:47,767 I would go back to 1868 in the middle of reconstruction 74 00:02:47,867 --> 00:02:50,136 and the rather extraordinary election 75 00:02:50,236 --> 00:02:52,405 that happened that year. 76 00:02:52,505 --> 00:02:53,573 In that election, 77 00:02:53,673 --> 00:02:57,577 a new biracial alliance of former slaves 78 00:02:57,677 --> 00:02:59,045 and white allies 79 00:02:59,145 --> 00:03:01,781 formed the state's newly established Republican Party. 80 00:03:01,881 --> 00:03:05,518 Won, 107 of 120 seats 81 00:03:05,618 --> 00:03:07,620 in a constitutional convention 82 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:09,689 called at the instruction of Congress 83 00:03:09,789 --> 00:03:11,558 that to draft a new constitution 84 00:03:11,658 --> 00:03:14,727 that would bring North Carolina back into the union. 85 00:03:14,827 --> 00:03:17,697 And the document they produced was remarkable. 86 00:03:17,797 --> 00:03:19,532 It guaranteed free elections. 87 00:03:19,632 --> 00:03:23,169 It afforded every adult male citizen the right to vote. 88 00:03:23,269 --> 00:03:25,138 It did away with property requirements 89 00:03:25,238 --> 00:03:28,675 for running for high office in North Carolina. 90 00:03:28,775 --> 00:03:32,378 And for the first time in this State's history, 91 00:03:32,478 --> 00:03:34,447 created a system of elected 92 00:03:34,547 --> 00:03:36,950 rather than appointed County Government. 93 00:03:37,050 --> 00:03:38,618 I mean, what they were framing there 94 00:03:38,718 --> 00:03:42,155 was a radically inclusive and democratic vision 95 00:03:42,255 --> 00:03:44,657 of the state's future, but it didn't last. 96 00:03:44,757 --> 00:03:47,360 - Right, The fusion government, yeah. 97 00:03:47,460 --> 00:03:50,063 - Yeah, it was challenged by opponents 98 00:03:50,163 --> 00:03:52,465 and this went on over a period of 35 years 99 00:03:52,565 --> 00:03:55,435 actually following reconstruction challenged that, 100 00:03:55,535 --> 00:03:59,839 that vision and wanted to restore political 101 00:03:59,939 --> 00:04:02,442 and economic order in which power and wealth 102 00:04:02,542 --> 00:04:04,911 were concentrated in the hands of the few. 103 00:04:05,011 --> 00:04:06,446 And they talked in ways 104 00:04:06,546 --> 00:04:08,014 that we're familiar with today 105 00:04:08,114 --> 00:04:11,784 with appeals to issues of voter fraud and corruption, 106 00:04:11,884 --> 00:04:14,420 much of it couched and thinly veiled 107 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,557 more often than not explicit racial appeals. 108 00:04:17,657 --> 00:04:20,326 And the consequences for this state were, 109 00:04:20,426 --> 00:04:21,761 were profound and tragic. 110 00:04:21,861 --> 00:04:24,664 - So bring us up to where we were in January, 111 00:04:24,764 --> 00:04:25,598 February and March. 112 00:04:25,698 --> 00:04:27,567 How would you describe us then? 113 00:04:27,667 --> 00:04:29,035 - All right. So this is, you know, 114 00:04:29,135 --> 00:04:31,571 the beginning of what we know is the system of Jim Crow 115 00:04:31,671 --> 00:04:33,806 and blacks, and second class citizenship, 116 00:04:33,906 --> 00:04:36,309 very poverty for the state overall, 117 00:04:36,409 --> 00:04:38,511 and some ways that you could think of it as a bad movie 118 00:04:38,611 --> 00:04:40,013 that runs again and again. 119 00:04:40,113 --> 00:04:43,716 And I think in some ways on the edge of the pandemic, 120 00:04:43,816 --> 00:04:45,985 we were in one of those sequels 121 00:04:46,085 --> 00:04:47,520 and in some respects, 122 00:04:47,620 --> 00:04:51,424 the pandemic really laid bare the issues that were at stake. 123 00:04:52,458 --> 00:04:54,460 - That's a very good enough, 124 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,229 Frankly I was wondering where you were going there 125 00:04:56,329 --> 00:04:57,597 and how long it was going to take to get there, 126 00:04:57,697 --> 00:04:59,232 but you did a good job of getting me there. 127 00:04:59,332 --> 00:05:00,700 Thank you. 128 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,236 Mike, let's look at a similar progression economically. 129 00:05:03,336 --> 00:05:04,671 at various times in history, 130 00:05:04,771 --> 00:05:06,706 we've been known as the rip van winkle state, 131 00:05:06,806 --> 00:05:08,174 because of our sluggish economy 132 00:05:08,274 --> 00:05:11,044 also is the Dixie Dynamo. 133 00:05:11,144 --> 00:05:14,447 We were hard hit during the great recession of 2008. 134 00:05:14,547 --> 00:05:16,349 How would you describe our economy 135 00:05:16,449 --> 00:05:18,918 prior to March of this year? 136 00:05:19,018 --> 00:05:21,387 - Very good. Basically, very, very good. 137 00:05:21,487 --> 00:05:25,525 All the metrics for the state look very well, 138 00:05:25,625 --> 00:05:28,761 unemployment under 4%, we had a growth rate, 139 00:05:28,861 --> 00:05:31,431 a little under the national average, but a growth rate. 140 00:05:31,531 --> 00:05:32,398 That was good. 141 00:05:33,566 --> 00:05:35,635 In fact, we had been the longest period of time 142 00:05:35,735 --> 00:05:36,569 in our history 143 00:05:36,669 --> 00:05:38,271 since the previous recession, 144 00:05:38,371 --> 00:05:39,839 and then all that collapsed with the, 145 00:05:39,939 --> 00:05:41,474 with the advent of COVID. 146 00:05:41,574 --> 00:05:45,378 We have suffered through COVID similarly to the nation, 147 00:05:45,478 --> 00:05:47,180 big drop in the second quarter, 148 00:05:47,280 --> 00:05:48,681 we think we're going to have our big rebound 149 00:05:48,781 --> 00:05:50,850 in the third quarter. We don't have those numbers yet. 150 00:05:50,950 --> 00:05:52,251 - [Mark] Yeah I'll get there in a minute 151 00:05:52,352 --> 00:05:54,053 - I think we are in a recovery now, but it's slowing. 152 00:05:54,153 --> 00:05:55,655 - Politically John, 153 00:05:55,755 --> 00:05:58,057 we've always been a pretty conservative state, 154 00:05:59,225 --> 00:06:00,059 politically. 155 00:06:01,494 --> 00:06:04,230 We went through a period in the sixties with Terry Sanford 156 00:06:04,330 --> 00:06:06,899 and then with Jim hunt and so forth like that, 157 00:06:06,999 --> 00:06:09,669 where we became a little bit more progressive. 158 00:06:10,903 --> 00:06:12,805 Where would you say we were politically 159 00:06:12,905 --> 00:06:14,674 prior to this election? 160 00:06:15,908 --> 00:06:18,211 - North Carolina was, and, and, 161 00:06:18,311 --> 00:06:23,316 and certainly was in early 2020 a center right state. 162 00:06:24,717 --> 00:06:27,220 A state where many more people would identify themselves 163 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,756 as conservatives than as progressives, 164 00:06:29,856 --> 00:06:32,492 but also a state that was changing demographically 165 00:06:32,592 --> 00:06:33,960 and politically. 166 00:06:34,060 --> 00:06:37,497 It wasn't that long ago when the Republicans first rose into 167 00:06:37,597 --> 00:06:39,599 a competitive position North Carolina, 168 00:06:39,699 --> 00:06:41,701 which really only started in the seventies, 169 00:06:41,801 --> 00:06:44,437 it strengthened was actually in urban areas 170 00:06:44,537 --> 00:06:47,006 and some mountain counties that had always been Republican, 171 00:06:47,106 --> 00:06:49,675 but it was really urban areas, suburban communities, 172 00:06:49,776 --> 00:06:51,110 where the Republicans had a lot of strength. 173 00:06:51,210 --> 00:06:53,012 They struggled to win in the rural areas 174 00:06:53,112 --> 00:06:53,980 that were still democratic. 175 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,449 Well, obviously that situation 176 00:06:56,549 --> 00:06:59,152 prior to COVID had already begun to change. 177 00:06:59,252 --> 00:07:01,621 It began to change even before the Trump phenomenon. 178 00:07:01,721 --> 00:07:05,158 And now what we have is a closely divided electorate where 179 00:07:05,258 --> 00:07:08,728 either party can win most state offices. 180 00:07:08,828 --> 00:07:11,364 And in fact, we saw this year that they'll, 181 00:07:11,464 --> 00:07:12,565 that some voters 182 00:07:12,665 --> 00:07:14,000 will split their tickets between them still. 183 00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:16,602 - And we'll get to that in just a few minutes. 184 00:07:16,702 --> 00:07:19,372 Y'all are trying to get ahead of me here. 185 00:07:19,472 --> 00:07:21,040 Chris, so far as it goes, 186 00:07:21,140 --> 00:07:23,109 John alluded to the fact that we've had great 187 00:07:23,209 --> 00:07:26,646 population increases at least a hundred thousand per year. 188 00:07:26,746 --> 00:07:29,515 Where are these people coming from and, and where, 189 00:07:29,615 --> 00:07:33,586 how had they changed North Carolina on March 1st? 190 00:07:33,686 --> 00:07:35,688 - Well, they're coming from all over the United States 191 00:07:35,788 --> 00:07:38,191 and we continue to be one of the faster growing 192 00:07:38,291 --> 00:07:40,893 States in the country. They're coming to our urban areas, 193 00:07:40,993 --> 00:07:42,628 increasingly our suburban areas. 194 00:07:42,728 --> 00:07:43,896 I think professor Leloudis 195 00:07:43,996 --> 00:07:45,298 to sit on a great word to think about though, 196 00:07:45,398 --> 00:07:47,300 where we were before the, before COVID 197 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,503 we were living through the sequel of sort of precariousness 198 00:07:50,603 --> 00:07:53,239 where the COVID exposed all these faults 199 00:07:53,339 --> 00:07:55,608 that were already there along racial and economic lines, 200 00:07:55,708 --> 00:07:58,478 even though the economy is doing well as Dr. Walden says, 201 00:07:58,578 --> 00:08:00,079 there's a big swath of North Carolina 202 00:08:00,179 --> 00:08:03,516 that wasn't doing well, largely African-American, 203 00:08:03,616 --> 00:08:06,853 but also poor white, struggling white families, 204 00:08:06,953 --> 00:08:08,688 who are sort of right for the populism 205 00:08:08,788 --> 00:08:10,723 that has sort of invaded our country. 206 00:08:10,823 --> 00:08:13,426 And the last point I'll make is where we were pre COVID 207 00:08:13,526 --> 00:08:14,927 is a coalition 208 00:08:15,027 --> 00:08:16,462 I think the Republican party has made with sort of the 209 00:08:16,562 --> 00:08:18,998 more extreme elements I've talked often on the show, 210 00:08:19,098 --> 00:08:20,433 whether it was the tea party movement, 211 00:08:20,533 --> 00:08:22,401 the nullification rallies, or the legislature, 212 00:08:22,502 --> 00:08:24,303 all this stuff was sorta underneath 213 00:08:24,403 --> 00:08:26,205 and Republicans were holding it at arm's edge. 214 00:08:26,305 --> 00:08:28,374 And Donald Trump has sort of brought it into the mainstream. 215 00:08:28,474 --> 00:08:30,209 And I think that's why in North Carolina 216 00:08:30,309 --> 00:08:31,677 and across the country, 217 00:08:31,777 --> 00:08:33,813 now we're really struggling with how our democracy rolls on 218 00:08:33,913 --> 00:08:36,115 after this is tumultuous time. 219 00:08:36,215 --> 00:08:38,050 - Mike in March of this year, 220 00:08:38,150 --> 00:08:41,354 our unemployment rate was 4.4%. 221 00:08:41,454 --> 00:08:44,624 We had come through the great recession. 222 00:08:44,724 --> 00:08:47,560 We were making nice recovery in North Carolina. 223 00:08:47,660 --> 00:08:50,663 In fact, I think he'd been on our show not too long ago, 224 00:08:50,763 --> 00:08:54,467 talking about we were into this recovery prior 225 00:08:54,567 --> 00:08:56,435 to the beginning of COVID, right? 226 00:08:57,670 --> 00:08:58,971 - That's right. 227 00:08:59,071 --> 00:09:01,140 We had again done very, very well 228 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,042 in the years between the great recession 229 00:09:03,142 --> 00:09:06,178 and the start of COVID when I did your show a year ago, 230 00:09:06,279 --> 00:09:08,514 I was talking about 2020 being another growth year, 231 00:09:08,614 --> 00:09:11,884 sending more records and COVID has set us back. 232 00:09:11,984 --> 00:09:12,919 I don't think it's, 233 00:09:13,019 --> 00:09:14,220 I don't think it set us back 234 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,188 necessarily in terms of our fundamentals. 235 00:09:16,289 --> 00:09:17,924 I think North Carolina is going to come out of this, 236 00:09:18,024 --> 00:09:20,760 looking to be what I would call a safe state. 237 00:09:20,860 --> 00:09:24,297 I think we could benefit from being a state that yes, 238 00:09:24,397 --> 00:09:28,067 has a range of, of locations from density to low density. 239 00:09:28,167 --> 00:09:31,404 I think we can attract businesses and people from 240 00:09:31,504 --> 00:09:33,339 some of the regions that are really suffered like the, 241 00:09:33,439 --> 00:09:36,042 like the Northeast I've been told by state officials 242 00:09:36,142 --> 00:09:38,544 that we continue to get calls from businesses. 243 00:09:38,644 --> 00:09:41,647 We had some very good announcements the other day. 244 00:09:41,747 --> 00:09:45,418 I do think the key in, in the future is going to be, 245 00:09:45,518 --> 00:09:47,520 we're going to have to have a massive retraining 246 00:09:47,620 --> 00:09:49,789 for the jobs that were lost, all aren't coming back. 247 00:09:49,889 --> 00:09:51,791 We're going to have a different set of jobs. 248 00:09:51,891 --> 00:09:53,593 And I think we need to think very hard about 249 00:09:53,693 --> 00:09:55,861 how are we going to retrain workers. 250 00:09:55,962 --> 00:09:57,897 And I think a lot of that's going to be done by businesses, 251 00:09:57,997 --> 00:09:59,865 apprenticeship, certificates, et cetera. 252 00:09:59,966 --> 00:10:02,068 - Yeah, you guys want to keep taking me to 253 00:10:02,168 --> 00:10:03,536 North Carolina tomorrow. 254 00:10:03,636 --> 00:10:07,039 Let's, let's focus on let's focus on yesterday. 255 00:10:07,139 --> 00:10:08,541 Historically Jim, 256 00:10:09,475 --> 00:10:11,744 would you say that the, 257 00:10:11,844 --> 00:10:15,181 the big that history will say that North Carolina 258 00:10:15,281 --> 00:10:18,451 had resolved many of its problems. 259 00:10:18,551 --> 00:10:20,353 I know that you've written a book about race, 260 00:10:20,453 --> 00:10:22,054 and we're going to talk about it a little while. 261 00:10:22,154 --> 00:10:25,725 But would you say we've resolved many of our problems 262 00:10:25,825 --> 00:10:27,460 or that there were fundamentally, 263 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:30,830 there were still history problems that were nagging us? 264 00:10:32,031 --> 00:10:33,466 - Yeah. You know, 265 00:10:33,566 --> 00:10:35,701 I wish that I could say that we hit resolved and I mean, 266 00:10:35,801 --> 00:10:39,305 certainly things are better today than they were in 1960. 267 00:10:39,405 --> 00:10:43,209 But, you know, even in terms of their recovery pre-COVID, 268 00:10:43,309 --> 00:10:45,978 I think it's been important to recognize the degree to which 269 00:10:46,078 --> 00:10:48,347 that was quite uneven. 270 00:10:48,447 --> 00:10:50,816 It was still the case that we had state, 271 00:10:50,916 --> 00:10:54,020 counties in this state, in which up to 40% 272 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,189 of children lived in poverty. 273 00:10:57,289 --> 00:10:59,592 And right before the pandemic, I think we all remember, 274 00:10:59,692 --> 00:11:00,960 well, several years ago, you know, 275 00:11:01,060 --> 00:11:03,729 that study that pointed out that Charlotte 276 00:11:04,730 --> 00:11:05,931 had the 277 00:11:06,032 --> 00:11:09,368 lowest social mobility rate 278 00:11:09,468 --> 00:11:11,537 of any Metro area in the United States. 279 00:11:11,637 --> 00:11:13,105 - Moving up economically. 280 00:11:13,205 --> 00:11:16,008 - Yeah moving apart, if you were born into poverty. 281 00:11:16,108 --> 00:11:18,277 So yes, I mean the streets made great advances. 282 00:11:18,377 --> 00:11:19,645 There's no denying that, 283 00:11:19,745 --> 00:11:22,815 but they are still deep-rooted rooted problems 284 00:11:22,915 --> 00:11:24,550 that, you know, derived from our history 285 00:11:24,650 --> 00:11:26,285 that remain very much in front of us. 286 00:11:26,385 --> 00:11:28,387 - All right, well, let's move into North Carolina today. 287 00:11:28,487 --> 00:11:29,889 Going into this year, 288 00:11:29,989 --> 00:11:32,992 we believe the big story was going to be the election. 289 00:11:33,092 --> 00:11:34,894 Who knew, prior to March 290 00:11:34,994 --> 00:11:39,231 nobody knew anything about Corona virus or COVID-19 291 00:11:39,331 --> 00:11:42,134 After recording our first cases in early March, 292 00:11:42,234 --> 00:11:45,738 our state like the rest of the world, changed. 293 00:11:45,838 --> 00:11:47,306 Jim, perhaps it's trite, 294 00:11:47,406 --> 00:11:50,342 but we've never seen anything like this before staying home, 295 00:11:50,443 --> 00:11:54,714 virtual work, learning, work and learning, 296 00:11:54,814 --> 00:11:56,215 shopping, and travel. 297 00:11:56,315 --> 00:12:00,019 How's history, going to record our reaction to COVID-19. 298 00:12:01,587 --> 00:12:02,955 - Well, you know, 299 00:12:03,055 --> 00:12:05,224 I guess I'll keep up my bad meta... movie metaphor. 300 00:12:05,324 --> 00:12:08,894 We've been through this once before it was in 1918-1919, 301 00:12:08,994 --> 00:12:10,863 in Spanish flu pandemic. 302 00:12:10,963 --> 00:12:13,699 And what's interesting there is the parallels. 303 00:12:13,799 --> 00:12:15,534 There was an anti mask movement. 304 00:12:15,634 --> 00:12:17,069 Woodrow Wilson, 305 00:12:17,169 --> 00:12:19,572 president of the United States never said one word in public 306 00:12:19,672 --> 00:12:22,475 about the flu. We were in a war. 307 00:12:22,575 --> 00:12:25,878 He worried that it would be a sign of weakness. 308 00:12:25,978 --> 00:12:29,782 And the pandemic, developed in exactly the same way. 309 00:12:29,882 --> 00:12:31,217 A relatively mild, 310 00:12:31,317 --> 00:12:33,819 at least in terms of what was about to come 311 00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:36,388 outbreak and like May to July 312 00:12:36,489 --> 00:12:39,458 and then an absolute whirlwind of death 313 00:12:40,426 --> 00:12:43,129 between September and December. 314 00:12:43,229 --> 00:12:45,297 Before it was over about a fifth of all North Carolinas, 315 00:12:45,397 --> 00:12:48,267 in North Carolina and had gotten the flu, 316 00:12:48,367 --> 00:12:50,469 about 14,000 died. 317 00:12:50,569 --> 00:12:55,107 And the racial disparities, were almost exactly 318 00:12:55,207 --> 00:12:57,209 the same as they are today. 319 00:12:57,309 --> 00:12:58,444 - Mike... 320 00:12:58,544 --> 00:12:59,779 - So that piece of it's pretty sobering. 321 00:12:59,879 --> 00:13:01,614 - Mike, as you, we've talked about, 322 00:13:01,714 --> 00:13:04,683 the economy was staging a recovery 323 00:13:04,784 --> 00:13:05,918 from the great recession. 324 00:13:06,018 --> 00:13:07,486 Then things should shut down. 325 00:13:07,586 --> 00:13:09,855 Where are we economically today? 326 00:13:11,023 --> 00:13:12,158 - Well, I think we were at a recovery. 327 00:13:12,258 --> 00:13:13,592 I mean, technically 328 00:13:13,692 --> 00:13:14,493 we don't have the numbers from North Carolina 329 00:13:14,593 --> 00:13:15,761 for the third quarter, 330 00:13:15,861 --> 00:13:17,029 but I think you can look at job numbers. 331 00:13:17,129 --> 00:13:18,464 We've been steadily increasing. 332 00:13:18,564 --> 00:13:21,167 We have the big gains and the late summer. 333 00:13:21,267 --> 00:13:24,937 The gains have narrowed. I think right now we could go, 334 00:13:25,037 --> 00:13:27,339 we could, we, I would expect to see growth continue, 335 00:13:27,439 --> 00:13:29,341 but I am worried about the surge right now. 336 00:13:29,441 --> 00:13:31,243 Probably slowing things down, 337 00:13:31,343 --> 00:13:32,878 but I think we're past the worst. 338 00:13:32,978 --> 00:13:36,682 And the question now is how long will it take to get back 339 00:13:36,782 --> 00:13:38,450 to where we were pre-COVID 340 00:13:38,551 --> 00:13:40,753 and what kind of criminate changes 341 00:13:40,853 --> 00:13:42,221 that will, that will occur. 342 00:13:42,321 --> 00:13:43,789 - John, you've written some about this 343 00:13:43,889 --> 00:13:45,224 in some of your columns, 344 00:13:45,324 --> 00:13:46,959 North Carolina has changed. 345 00:13:47,059 --> 00:13:50,129 We've changed from the standpoint of, family gathering, 346 00:13:50,229 --> 00:13:53,299 so far as work, So far as shopping. 347 00:13:53,399 --> 00:13:55,301 Many of the traditional 348 00:13:55,401 --> 00:13:58,170 activities we've enjoyed have changed. 349 00:13:59,371 --> 00:14:02,141 Would you agree that So far as it goes, 350 00:14:02,241 --> 00:14:05,411 whether these changes have been good or bad. 351 00:14:05,511 --> 00:14:08,914 They've made an impact and possibly we'll go forward. 352 00:14:09,014 --> 00:14:11,317 - They've certainly made an impact. 353 00:14:11,417 --> 00:14:13,152 They have been largely negative, 354 00:14:13,252 --> 00:14:16,488 but not entirely negative, as Mike was alluding to. 355 00:14:16,589 --> 00:14:19,925 There's a lot of question marks now about how much of this 356 00:14:20,025 --> 00:14:23,295 is a temporary phenomenon that people will gladly 357 00:14:23,395 --> 00:14:25,664 put behind them in the rear view mirror, 358 00:14:25,764 --> 00:14:28,667 as they raced forward, things they were going to do in May 359 00:14:28,767 --> 00:14:30,836 they'll do next spring, that sort of thing. 360 00:14:30,936 --> 00:14:34,773 Or are some of these changes, in the case of the workplace 361 00:14:34,874 --> 00:14:37,610 and commuting patterns and education 362 00:14:37,710 --> 00:14:40,012 are some of these changes lasting one of the biggest 363 00:14:40,112 --> 00:14:42,081 differences between pre-COVID 364 00:14:42,181 --> 00:14:46,318 and the COVID experience we're now in, is traffic. 365 00:14:46,418 --> 00:14:47,553 - There's simply a lot less traffic 366 00:14:47,653 --> 00:14:49,288 in our metropolitan areas. 367 00:14:49,388 --> 00:14:50,489 Now on the one hand, 368 00:14:50,589 --> 00:14:52,791 if you are out driving, this is delightful. 369 00:14:52,892 --> 00:14:55,227 On the other hand, it tells you something about 370 00:14:55,327 --> 00:14:57,596 not just that people are staying at home 371 00:14:57,696 --> 00:14:59,598 and doing work from home, they are, 372 00:14:59,698 --> 00:15:02,801 but there is somewhat less activity happening 373 00:15:02,902 --> 00:15:04,370 than there was before. 374 00:15:04,470 --> 00:15:07,239 I think that is largely a fleeting phenomenon, 375 00:15:07,339 --> 00:15:09,909 but some of these things will probably become probable. 376 00:15:10,009 --> 00:15:12,011 - I was going to say, you get on our four lane roads, 377 00:15:12,111 --> 00:15:15,147 like 70 and 95 and 40 and so forth like that, 378 00:15:15,247 --> 00:15:17,249 there's a lot of traffic, but I do think Chris, 379 00:15:17,349 --> 00:15:18,550 we can agree that 380 00:15:18,651 --> 00:15:21,120 everybody would like to put this behind us. 381 00:15:21,220 --> 00:15:22,755 Looking however, at Government, 382 00:15:22,855 --> 00:15:25,891 and that's something we talk quite a bit about on NC Spin. 383 00:15:25,991 --> 00:15:30,129 Our governments have, have really experienced some, 384 00:15:30,229 --> 00:15:33,265 some phenomenon that are, that are unusual to us. 385 00:15:33,365 --> 00:15:34,667 For one thing, 386 00:15:34,767 --> 00:15:38,437 we had really stark differences between the legislature 387 00:15:38,537 --> 00:15:41,740 and the Governor during this, this crisis. 388 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,008 Would you agree? 389 00:15:43,108 --> 00:15:44,476 - Well, I would agree, 390 00:15:44,576 --> 00:15:46,378 but I think it reflects sort of our national division about, 391 00:15:46,478 --> 00:15:49,481 I think there is a strong argument to be made that the, the, 392 00:15:49,581 --> 00:15:52,251 the economy was never going to recover until we got control 393 00:15:52,351 --> 00:15:53,519 of the virus. 394 00:15:53,619 --> 00:15:56,655 I think we all, nobody thought we could stay 395 00:15:56,755 --> 00:15:59,124 sort of sequestered in our home the entire time, 396 00:15:59,224 --> 00:16:02,294 but there's just a lot of data sets that have shown recently 397 00:16:02,394 --> 00:16:04,697 that States that had masked mandates early on, for example, 398 00:16:04,797 --> 00:16:07,066 have done better than States that have no restrict, 399 00:16:07,166 --> 00:16:08,600 that had no restrictions at all. 400 00:16:08,701 --> 00:16:11,070 But masks had to deal with this all became 401 00:16:11,170 --> 00:16:12,438 a political football. 402 00:16:12,538 --> 00:16:14,606 Maybe that was to be expected in a political year, 403 00:16:14,707 --> 00:16:15,774 but I don't think it did, 404 00:16:15,874 --> 00:16:18,410 it did us as a service as a community. 405 00:16:18,510 --> 00:16:20,713 And I also think it's hard to talk about any of these issues 406 00:16:20,813 --> 00:16:23,782 in the abstract. And I know we were a North Carolina show, 407 00:16:23,882 --> 00:16:25,017 but you know, we have, 408 00:16:25,117 --> 00:16:26,785 we have no national leadership at all 409 00:16:26,885 --> 00:16:28,921 that helped unify the country and bring us together. 410 00:16:29,021 --> 00:16:31,623 In fact, it polarizes further in North Carolina, 411 00:16:31,724 --> 00:16:34,660 it made it much more difficult for politicians on both sides 412 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:36,996 to talk plainly to people about what was expected, 413 00:16:37,096 --> 00:16:38,664 how we could help, how government can help. 414 00:16:38,764 --> 00:16:41,767 It's really been a frustrating experience to watch our state 415 00:16:41,867 --> 00:16:42,968 ripped in half. 416 00:16:43,068 --> 00:16:45,404 - Mike, is there any economic sector 417 00:16:45,504 --> 00:16:48,507 that either suffered more than another 418 00:16:48,607 --> 00:16:52,611 or benefited more than another from this virus? 419 00:16:52,711 --> 00:16:53,846 - Well, I think technology 420 00:16:53,946 --> 00:16:55,280 has been a point to benefit has benefited 421 00:16:55,381 --> 00:16:57,516 and will continue to benefit because of things like 422 00:16:57,616 --> 00:16:59,318 what we're doing right now. 423 00:16:59,418 --> 00:17:00,819 In terms of suffering certainly. 424 00:17:00,919 --> 00:17:03,956 Businesses and sectors that rely a lot on 425 00:17:04,056 --> 00:17:06,258 in-person contact, 426 00:17:06,358 --> 00:17:08,460 tourism, restaurants, 427 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:09,728 hospitality, et cetera. 428 00:17:09,828 --> 00:17:12,598 I think those are going to fundamentally change 429 00:17:12,698 --> 00:17:14,366 probably fewer people in them. 430 00:17:14,466 --> 00:17:18,337 And finally, if we see remote working really take off, 431 00:17:18,437 --> 00:17:21,306 think of what's going to happen to office complexes and all, 432 00:17:21,407 --> 00:17:24,877 and offices that have the, the janitors, the, 433 00:17:24,977 --> 00:17:28,380 the secretarial staff, the, the surrounding restaurants 434 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:30,849 that feed those folks during noon, 435 00:17:30,949 --> 00:17:32,251 they're going to suffer immensely. 436 00:17:32,351 --> 00:17:34,253 - Jim, how is history going to record 437 00:17:34,353 --> 00:17:37,089 North Carolina's reaction to the elections? 438 00:17:37,189 --> 00:17:38,791 What we did in the elections? 439 00:17:40,292 --> 00:17:41,527 - Yeah. Well, I mean, I, you know, 440 00:17:41,627 --> 00:17:44,797 in part I'd go back to some things that, yeah, 441 00:17:44,897 --> 00:17:47,466 Chris had, Chris had said. 442 00:17:47,566 --> 00:17:49,601 Look, I mean, we're, we're a deeply divided state 443 00:17:49,701 --> 00:17:51,837 and we've always been a purple State. 444 00:17:51,937 --> 00:17:53,372 I mean, that's, what's interesting about 445 00:17:53,472 --> 00:17:54,706 North Carolina history. 446 00:17:54,807 --> 00:17:57,643 And it's only taken the smallest margins 447 00:17:57,743 --> 00:17:59,211 to move us one direction or the other. 448 00:17:59,311 --> 00:18:00,946 That's why issues of our voting rights 449 00:18:01,046 --> 00:18:04,016 end up being so critical here. 450 00:18:04,116 --> 00:18:05,818 You know, I think that in terms of the history 451 00:18:05,918 --> 00:18:08,687 of the way we've dealt with this particular moment, 452 00:18:08,787 --> 00:18:10,656 I'm afraid the judgments not gonna, 453 00:18:10,756 --> 00:18:12,891 not going to be very complimentary. 454 00:18:12,991 --> 00:18:14,793 I learned in eighth grade civics, 455 00:18:14,893 --> 00:18:18,564 that government's role was to protect the general welfare. 456 00:18:18,664 --> 00:18:20,299 And you know, whether we're looking 457 00:18:20,399 --> 00:18:23,335 at the national level or state level, 458 00:18:23,435 --> 00:18:26,538 it's really disturbing almost half a million 459 00:18:26,638 --> 00:18:28,173 North Carolinians without health insurance. 460 00:18:28,273 --> 00:18:31,643 We went into this, tens of thousands of more today. 461 00:18:31,743 --> 00:18:34,179 One of the food banks, my wife and I support, 462 00:18:34,279 --> 00:18:35,414 we got an update yesterday. 463 00:18:35,514 --> 00:18:39,451 15,007 and a half tons of food in one week. 464 00:18:40,619 --> 00:18:42,788 What kind of society, you know, 465 00:18:42,888 --> 00:18:43,989 tolerates that? 466 00:18:45,157 --> 00:18:46,558 It's a real call 467 00:18:46,658 --> 00:18:48,894 to think about what we believe in this country 468 00:18:48,994 --> 00:18:50,295 and our obligation to --. 469 00:18:50,395 --> 00:18:52,564 - Fascinating, fascinating discussions guys. 470 00:18:52,664 --> 00:18:54,433 But we got about six minutes left in show, 471 00:18:54,533 --> 00:18:57,035 and I want to get to North Carolina tomorrow. 472 00:18:57,136 --> 00:19:00,139 We've talked about leading up to COVID the time since COVID, 473 00:19:00,239 --> 00:19:02,608 now we want you to tell us what to expect, Mike Walden, 474 00:19:02,708 --> 00:19:06,411 what can economically we expect for 20 and 21 475 00:19:06,512 --> 00:19:07,713 and perhaps beyond? 476 00:19:08,747 --> 00:19:10,149 - I think growth. 477 00:19:10,249 --> 00:19:12,251 I think it'll be a year or two before we get our, 478 00:19:12,351 --> 00:19:14,953 our major metrics back to where they were pre COVID. 479 00:19:15,053 --> 00:19:17,556 I think North Carolina competitively 480 00:19:17,656 --> 00:19:19,992 will be looking very well, very good. 481 00:19:20,092 --> 00:19:22,661 I think we'll continue to attract businesses and people. 482 00:19:22,761 --> 00:19:26,431 But particularly in the job area, massive changes, 483 00:19:26,532 --> 00:19:28,901 massive overhaul about where people work, 484 00:19:29,001 --> 00:19:30,135 what kind of skills they need. 485 00:19:30,235 --> 00:19:32,104 I think that's what I would point to and say, 486 00:19:32,204 --> 00:19:33,906 we need the most focus on. 487 00:19:34,006 --> 00:19:37,543 - And Mike, we're going to be having these vaccines coming 488 00:19:37,643 --> 00:19:40,312 online mid-year, 489 00:19:40,412 --> 00:19:43,282 late spring, early mid-year for people. 490 00:19:43,382 --> 00:19:45,984 How's that going to affect us economically? 491 00:19:46,084 --> 00:19:48,620 - Well, we actually may benefit North Carolina 492 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,156 through some production increases. 493 00:19:51,256 --> 00:19:53,859 We have a pharmaceutical sector here. 494 00:19:53,959 --> 00:19:55,260 We have a manufacturing sector. 495 00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:58,697 So just a knack, but obviously a tremendous optimism. 496 00:19:58,797 --> 00:20:01,066 I think we'll see a big jump in the stock market 497 00:20:01,166 --> 00:20:04,469 for example, but it won't cure these underlying changes 498 00:20:04,570 --> 00:20:06,939 that I'm emphasizing. Those are still going to go on. 499 00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:09,107 And that I think is what we really need to worry about. 500 00:20:09,208 --> 00:20:10,642 - So Jim Leloudis, let's, 501 00:20:10,742 --> 00:20:13,278 let's examine what we can expect from North Carolina 502 00:20:13,378 --> 00:20:14,746 post pandemic. 503 00:20:14,846 --> 00:20:16,982 We're going to have a new administration in Washington. 504 00:20:17,082 --> 00:20:18,083 We're going to have 505 00:20:18,183 --> 00:20:20,886 a leadership in North Carolina, 506 00:20:20,986 --> 00:20:23,255 which is still going to see a governor of one party 507 00:20:23,355 --> 00:20:26,191 a legislator, legislature run by another one. 508 00:20:26,291 --> 00:20:27,626 What can we expect? 509 00:20:27,726 --> 00:20:31,563 So far as the atmosphere politically in North Carolina? 510 00:20:31,663 --> 00:20:33,599 - Well, you know, I'd like to be optimistic. 511 00:20:33,699 --> 00:20:35,867 So let, let me, let me go in that direction. 512 00:20:35,968 --> 00:20:37,736 I mean, I hope that we can come together 513 00:20:37,836 --> 00:20:41,306 across the political divisions that do three things. 514 00:20:41,406 --> 00:20:42,874 You know, look at the turnout in this election, 515 00:20:42,975 --> 00:20:46,945 one extraordinary affirmation of democracy. 516 00:20:47,045 --> 00:20:50,582 I hope that we can put more effort to making it easier 517 00:20:50,682 --> 00:20:52,918 for people to vote rather than more difficult 518 00:20:53,018 --> 00:20:54,386 for people to vote. 519 00:20:54,486 --> 00:20:56,888 I hope that we'll take gerrymandering seriously. Yes. 520 00:20:56,989 --> 00:20:58,790 Historically has been done by both parties. 521 00:20:58,890 --> 00:21:01,093 That's no excuse. 522 00:21:01,193 --> 00:21:03,395 We really need to find a way to ensure 523 00:21:03,495 --> 00:21:05,364 that all North Carolinians have an opportunity 524 00:21:05,464 --> 00:21:08,567 to elect people who represent their community interests 525 00:21:08,667 --> 00:21:09,401 and values. 526 00:21:09,501 --> 00:21:10,235 - Jim 527 00:21:10,335 --> 00:21:11,169 - And then third, 528 00:21:11,270 --> 00:21:13,005 I hope we'll find some big ideas 529 00:21:13,105 --> 00:21:14,206 for evening out that kind of [mumbles]. 530 00:21:14,306 --> 00:21:16,708 - A great, a great vision for our state, 531 00:21:16,808 --> 00:21:19,211 we'd like to see a great vision, right? 532 00:21:19,311 --> 00:21:23,915 Excellent point. Chris, Jim talked about gerrymandering. 533 00:21:25,250 --> 00:21:28,053 We're going to get the results from the 2020 census. 534 00:21:28,153 --> 00:21:31,990 Albeit, we don't think that they did a great job of, 535 00:21:32,090 --> 00:21:34,226 of measuring who we were in North Carolina. 536 00:21:34,326 --> 00:21:37,763 Is this legislature going to get more serious about 537 00:21:37,863 --> 00:21:41,033 redistricting reform and, and ending gerrymandering? 538 00:21:41,133 --> 00:21:43,135 - Well, I'd like to say yes, but I'm a little, 539 00:21:43,235 --> 00:21:46,171 I'm not sure that that's going to happen this time. 540 00:21:46,271 --> 00:21:47,873 It's really hard to ask people in power 541 00:21:47,973 --> 00:21:49,408 to give up that power 542 00:21:49,508 --> 00:21:51,043 and drawing the maps as the ultimate political power. 543 00:21:51,143 --> 00:21:52,577 But, you know, 544 00:21:52,678 --> 00:21:54,780 the Republican state house several years ago passed a, 545 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:56,214 a redistricting reform effort. 546 00:21:56,315 --> 00:21:58,350 The Senate has been lows to take it up. 547 00:21:58,450 --> 00:22:00,886 I hope that public pressure will at least figure out some 548 00:22:00,986 --> 00:22:02,954 criteria that we can use this year. 549 00:22:03,055 --> 00:22:05,257 That people perceive as fair. The long-term goal, 550 00:22:05,357 --> 00:22:08,360 I think is some independent body as happens in Iowa 551 00:22:08,460 --> 00:22:09,761 and some other places. 552 00:22:09,861 --> 00:22:12,164 We need to stop letting politicians choose their voters, 553 00:22:12,264 --> 00:22:14,900 but voters have to speak out and demand that that happens. 554 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,170 - And, and so far as the elections, we had expected, 555 00:22:18,270 --> 00:22:19,871 maybe we might hear something from that, 556 00:22:19,971 --> 00:22:21,406 but I'm not sure that we did. 557 00:22:21,506 --> 00:22:26,511 John, the biggest function of state government is education. 558 00:22:27,379 --> 00:22:28,480 Let's talk a little bit about 559 00:22:28,580 --> 00:22:30,015 what we can expect educationally. 560 00:22:30,115 --> 00:22:33,085 We've seen a big shift away from district or traditional 561 00:22:33,185 --> 00:22:37,155 North Carolina schools, to charters and private schools 562 00:22:37,255 --> 00:22:39,758 our universities that have gone through 563 00:22:39,858 --> 00:22:44,396 a tremendous upheaval in having the COVID on campus. 564 00:22:44,496 --> 00:22:47,099 What do you expect? A university, 565 00:22:47,199 --> 00:22:50,836 a university wise and public education wise? 566 00:22:50,936 --> 00:22:53,705 - I think the COVID experience simply accelerated 567 00:22:53,805 --> 00:22:55,841 to some extent trends that were already occurring. 568 00:22:55,941 --> 00:22:58,643 There was already an increased amount of school choice 569 00:22:58,744 --> 00:23:00,178 in North Carolina that will continue. 570 00:23:00,278 --> 00:23:02,814 Most students will still go to district run public schools, 571 00:23:02,914 --> 00:23:06,852 but that percentage will be 70% or 65 or something, 572 00:23:06,952 --> 00:23:09,388 eventually not 85 or 90. 573 00:23:09,488 --> 00:23:12,124 And as far as universities are concerned, 574 00:23:12,224 --> 00:23:14,760 there was already increased use of distance learning, 575 00:23:14,860 --> 00:23:17,229 online coursework for students who were on campus 576 00:23:17,329 --> 00:23:19,131 that will probably continue. 577 00:23:19,231 --> 00:23:22,234 But lots of students are dissatisfied 578 00:23:22,334 --> 00:23:24,669 with their online courses. So when that happens. 579 00:23:24,770 --> 00:23:26,838 - Well in fact in Lake, in Lake County, 580 00:23:26,938 --> 00:23:28,774 they reported that 25% 581 00:23:28,874 --> 00:23:31,376 of all the students that did online learning, 582 00:23:31,476 --> 00:23:34,413 the first part of the year, flunked at least one quarter. 583 00:23:34,513 --> 00:23:36,381 - That's right. I mean, in the college context. 584 00:23:36,481 --> 00:23:37,849 - Oh, okay. 585 00:23:37,949 --> 00:23:39,351 - Some students like it, some students just like it. 586 00:23:39,451 --> 00:23:43,188 Some, we are not going to have, you know, full spread, 587 00:23:43,288 --> 00:23:46,391 you know, permanent virtual education for most students, 588 00:23:46,491 --> 00:23:47,626 that's not what they want. 589 00:23:47,726 --> 00:23:49,694 - But additional amounts of coursework online, 590 00:23:49,795 --> 00:23:50,862 that's a permanent change. 591 00:23:50,962 --> 00:23:52,831 - We are, we could have this conversation. 592 00:23:52,931 --> 00:23:54,099 This has been fascinating. 593 00:23:54,199 --> 00:23:55,801 I thank you all for participating in it. 594 00:23:55,901 --> 00:23:57,836 And we could talk for hours. 595 00:23:57,936 --> 00:24:01,406 Unfortunately we have 25 minutes and 26 seconds. 596 00:24:01,506 --> 00:24:03,508 I do want to note before we leave 597 00:24:03,608 --> 00:24:06,478 that both of our guests today are noted authors 598 00:24:06,578 --> 00:24:10,449 and have been recognized for the work that they've done. 599 00:24:10,549 --> 00:24:11,683 And I want to review 600 00:24:11,783 --> 00:24:13,752 and recognize some of their latest books. 601 00:24:13,852 --> 00:24:16,788 First of all, let me talk about Jim Leloudis his new book, 602 00:24:16,888 --> 00:24:19,191 Fragile Democracy, Jim I've ordered it. 603 00:24:19,291 --> 00:24:20,392 I'm looking forward to it. 604 00:24:20,492 --> 00:24:22,794 It's a struggle over race and voting rights, 605 00:24:22,894 --> 00:24:24,396 in North Carolina. 606 00:24:24,496 --> 00:24:27,699 Where can get it Amazon, your local bookstore. 607 00:24:27,799 --> 00:24:29,067 - Amazon, your local bookstore, 608 00:24:29,167 --> 00:24:31,736 direct from UNC press at a 40% discount. 609 00:24:31,837 --> 00:24:35,507 - Oh, 40% discount wish you to tell me before that. 610 00:24:35,607 --> 00:24:38,910 Mike Walden, you've written two new books. 611 00:24:39,010 --> 00:24:41,112 I'm really intrigued about this. 612 00:24:41,213 --> 00:24:43,114 The first one is Real Solutions, 613 00:24:43,215 --> 00:24:46,952 common sense ideas for solving our economy 614 00:24:47,052 --> 00:24:48,420 and pressing problems. 615 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,023 And Disunionia. I get, did I that pronounced that correctly. 616 00:24:52,123 --> 00:24:53,124 - Disunionia 617 00:24:54,125 --> 00:24:54,860 - Disunionia? 618 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:55,694 - Disunionia. 619 00:24:55,794 --> 00:24:56,928 - A political thriller. 620 00:24:58,296 --> 00:25:00,832 I don't expect my economist to be writing novels. 621 00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:03,268 - Amazon... 622 00:25:03,368 --> 00:25:06,004 - Sometimes that side of the brain kicks in John, 623 00:25:06,104 --> 00:25:08,707 John Hood knows this as we both do this. 624 00:25:08,807 --> 00:25:10,575 So he writes fiction and nonfiction. 625 00:25:10,675 --> 00:25:12,544 I dabbled in both. 626 00:25:12,644 --> 00:25:13,778 - All right. Well, good. 627 00:25:13,879 --> 00:25:16,214 Let's, let's encourage everybody to get it. 628 00:25:16,314 --> 00:25:19,851 And folks, we are excited to have had you 629 00:25:19,951 --> 00:25:21,887 to join our show this week. 630 00:25:21,987 --> 00:25:24,456 Like I say, we've run out of time, 631 00:25:24,556 --> 00:25:27,459 but we hope you've enjoyed our post Thanksgiving show. 632 00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:30,562 We hope you'll watch our website, ncspin.com 633 00:25:30,662 --> 00:25:33,164 and stay tuned, watch out for the spin. 634 00:25:33,265 --> 00:25:35,867 [upbeat music] 635 00:25:37,769 --> 00:25:38,937 - [Narrator] Farmville, 636 00:25:39,037 --> 00:25:40,105 steeped in Eastern Carolina tradition 637 00:25:40,205 --> 00:25:42,040 yet surprisingly sophisticated. 638 00:25:42,140 --> 00:25:43,775 In Farmville, find a French bakery, 639 00:25:43,875 --> 00:25:45,577 a furniture school, glassblowing, 640 00:25:45,677 --> 00:25:47,212 great shops and restaurants. 641 00:25:47,312 --> 00:25:49,981 East of I-95 in the middle of everything. 642 00:25:50,081 --> 00:25:51,616 Find it first in Farmville. 643 00:25:52,817 --> 00:25:54,519 - In more than 21 years on NC Spin, 644 00:25:54,619 --> 00:25:56,888 I never endorsed a product or sponsor. 645 00:25:56,988 --> 00:26:00,692 But I volunteered to do this message for Family Physicians. 646 00:26:00,792 --> 00:26:02,093 Over the past 40 years, 647 00:26:02,193 --> 00:26:04,896 my family doctor could quickly diagnose my illnesses 648 00:26:04,996 --> 00:26:06,965 because he knew my medical history. 649 00:26:07,065 --> 00:26:09,000 Evidence suggests, that I'll live longer, 650 00:26:09,100 --> 00:26:10,468 have a higher quality of life 651 00:26:10,569 --> 00:26:13,171 and save 33% on healthcare costs. 652 00:26:13,271 --> 00:26:15,206 I believe in my trusted relationship 653 00:26:15,307 --> 00:26:16,374 with my family physician. 654 00:26:16,474 --> 00:26:17,542 - [Narrator] Family Physicians, 655 00:26:17,642 --> 00:26:20,745 your trusted healthcare advisor, for life. 656 00:26:20,845 --> 00:26:22,647 [lighthearted guitar music] 657 00:26:22,747 --> 00:26:24,416 - [Narrator] Your life is more flexible 658 00:26:24,516 --> 00:26:26,418 and efficient than ever. 659 00:26:26,518 --> 00:26:28,486 And your energy is too. 660 00:26:28,587 --> 00:26:30,422 See how North Carolina's electric cooperatives 661 00:26:30,522 --> 00:26:31,723 are building a brighter future 662 00:26:31,823 --> 00:26:33,692 for the rural communities we serve. 663 00:26:33,792 --> 00:26:36,795 @ncelectriccooperatives.com /brighter. 664 00:26:38,129 --> 00:26:40,532 - Quality public television is made possible through 665 00:26:40,632 --> 00:26:43,034 the financial contributions of viewers like you, 666 00:26:43,134 --> 00:26:46,638 who invite you to join them in supporting UNC-TV.