>> This is NC Spin
and unrehearsed discussion

on issues of interest
in North Carolina.

Now here is your
moderator Tom Campbell.

We're not superstitious
but we want to welcome you

to the Friday the 13th edition
of balance debate

for the old state

which by the way happens to be
our 13th show on UNC-TV.

Well temperatures aren't the
only thing warming up this week.

Our panel will debate
the ongoing wars

between the executive
and legislative branches

and talk about
the latest court verdicts.

We'll examine the potential
for trade wars

and how they could affect
our state's economy.

And four weeks before
the May 8 primary

the only fireworks

seemed to be in the courtroom.
We'll talk about it.

And you wouldn't won't let us go
without our panel

telling us something
we don't know.

Joining us this week
on the panel

are Brad Crone political
consultant and analyst

John Hood's syndicated
columnist and author

Chris Fitzsimon Political
Analyst and columnist.

And Anna Beavon Gravely
welcome to the show.

For the first time
political analyst

and with Americans
for Prosperity

Well we're going to begin
our uninterrupted debate

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>> Let's get started.

The war between the executive

and legislative branches
of our government

which started when Pat McCrory
was governor has escalated

to the point where just about
any action either side takes

is surely going to result
in a lawsuit from the other.

Some court cases
resulted in lawsuits

by the Republican
led legislature.

Others handed verdicts
against the executive branch.

The latest ruling dealt
with who had the authority

to determine how millions
of dollars in settlements

from this to the state
from Volkswagen would be spent.

And a three judge panel affirmed

the legislature
has the authority

to appropriate that money
even in court settlements.

Chris let's start
with the basics here.

It is well known
and acknowledged

we have one of the we guess

executive branches
of all the states

and the legislature has

the majority of power
in North Carolina.

And this was originally done
when the columnists were fed up

with the tyrannical king
in England.

The question many
are asking right now

is is this balance of power

tilting too far in favor
of the legislative branch.

>> Well you know we even had
a weaker governor up

until the veto power

was passed we were
the only state in the veto

for many years that the governor
didn't have the veto

it gets changed
in the mid 90s

and now I think our governor

is a little more powerful
than he or she was.

But there's a couple
of things going on here.

One is I do think we constantly
need to look at this

and the balance of powers
but what appalls me frankly

is the way we're looking
at it this time

remember a lot of
these big battles

started in a special session.
Nobody knew was going to happen.

It was wasn't called
until five minutes

before it was held in December

after Roy Cooper
was elected governor.

And other than
the Volkswagen suit

and whatever you want to say
about the pipeline fund

I think for the most
part Governor Cooper

hasn't been trying
to seize more power.

He's been fending off bizarre

attempts to take power
away from him again.

I'm not saying necessarily
we have the right balance

but what we have is a terrible
process to figure it out

before we make significant
changes in power.

We need a thoughtful process.

>> John, from where I sit
it almost looks like this

legislature is deliberately
trying to devise legislation

that pushes the limits of power
for the executive branch

and to pick fights with them.
Is that fair.

>> Well I think they would argue
that they are defending

the legislature's preeminent
role in state government.

They've fully in fact
both parties back

when the Democrats
were in charge

they made no bones about
the fact that the legislature

isn't an equal branch
of government

with the governor
and the Supreme Court.

It's a superior branch.
That's their argument.

They're very explicit about it

and that's a pretty good
reading of the Constitution.

I think in this particular case

with the settlement
dollars for example

I don't agree
with Chris about this.

I think this wasn't a step
for the governor to assert power

that no previous governor
has ever really enjoyed.

That is pretty clearly not
justified by the Constitution.

The notion that
you can accept money

from the federal government

or from a settlement
or something

and directed without the
legislature's control is odd

and I'm surprised that wasn't
a unanimous decision.

>> We've been having these
arguments going back and forth

even before Governor Cooper

came oh was facing --
>> The late 1790s.

>> So --
>> Tom remembers that!

>> I was
a young boy at the time.

Here's my question
who's keeping score here.

Who's winning
the legislature winning.

The governor winning?
Or is it kind of a draw.

>> Finally if I was
keeping score

I would say the is winning.

The legislature has always won

and based on our state
constitution

from the development of it
in 1790 to 1793 post Civil War

and even the new development
of the state constitution

in the late 1960s
the legislatures won

and they will continue to win.

Now I would argue with you

about whether or not
we have a weak governorship.

I contend our
governorship strength

is based on the individual
of the governor

and in particular
for example Jim Hunt

was a very powerful governor

and use the leverage that he had
had we had powerful governors

since Jim Hunt
left office in 2001.

That's a big question mark.

>> Anna, I think a lot of people
would say

regardless of Brad's
keeping score

as to who's winning who's losing
the people of North Carolina

probably are the ones
that are losing

because we're having to pay
all these exorbitant court costs

and get tied up when we could
be talking about issues

instead of going to court.
Would you agree.

>> Absolutely. I mean
you're absolutely right.

I think the part that stands
out to me more than anything

is just the power
of the judicial branch

and this conversation is how so
many things are going to court

so many things
are being decided by

by small panels of judges
and that's what's confusing.

>> That's a good point because
we're really kind of tilt power

over toward them a little bit.

>> Absolutely and I think that's
what's most confusing.

>> So let's look
at this latest verdict

that came out, three judge panel

ruled that the legislature
alone has the power

to determine the Volkswagen
settlement money

which by the way
is 92 million dollars.

Senate President
Pro Tem Phil Berger

applauded the decision
from the court

saying the Constitution gives
the appropriations authority

to 170 people not one.

Agree or disagree.

>> I think that we're going to
see I don't think this is over.

You know this is a three judge
panel this is going to go like

all these decisions the Supreme
Court which is four to three.

I think tilting more toward
the Democratic point of view

although I think there's easily
an argument to be made

that the legislature
should do this.

What has happened in the past.

The most famous examples
the golden leaf fund

the legislature
has the authority

but the governor works closely

with the legislature
and comes up with a plan.

I think the best thing would be
if they could figure out a way

to cooperate in these areas
and give the governor input.

The other thing I think
it's important to jump in here

and say one of the things
that most distressing is that

when Senator Berger's
reaction to this decision

when Senator Berger wins
he praises the court.

When Senator Berger loses
and his allies

they'll question
whether or not the judge

should take off their robes
and run for the legislature

and they're outraged --
>> The legitimacy of the court

>> The legitimacy of the court

I think it's worth
noting Governor Cooper

and others are disappointed
in the decisions

but they're not questioning
the very process

by which judges make decisions
and that's a big difference.

>> OK, so help us
understand Brad,

the opportunity
scholarships part

of that decision that came out.

It said as I understood
it dealing vouchers

for private schools

that the governor should include

an additional
ten million dollars per year

in his budget proposals
for the coming year.

Now Governor Cooper
is looking at this

and saying hey they got the
ability and authority

to to appropriate money

but they can't tell me
how to craft a budget.

>> I think he's
absolutely right.

I think the prescription process
is flawed in that ruling Tom.

Clearly the legislature has
the constitutional authority

to appropriate money

but I don't think that
it's right for the courts

to prescribe how the governor
should recommend

to the legislature the
appropriation of state funds.

>> I might suggest
I disagree about that.

And here's the reason:
the governor's current process

by which he follows
to get all the stuff

from the various departments

and proposed budget
legislature that's statutory.

>> Yes.

>> There's nothing
in the constitution

that lays all that out.

>> But there's nothing in
the Constitution that tells him

he's got to appropriate
a certain amount of money --

>> What I'm saying

is the legislature
has this can pass a law

that determines how the governor
puts his budget together.

That's the system
we currently live in,

that was created by
the legislature.

>> May be that this
panel also said

that the legislature
had the power

to shrink the size of the court
of appeals from 15 down

to 12 members reading article
4 section 7 of the Constitution.

It clearly says that the general
assembly has the authority

from time to time
to increase or decrease.

The governor said
that it limited his authority

to be able to appoint judges
when a vacancy is created.

We're not lawyers but does
that argument make sense to you?

>> That argument does not
make sense to me.

He still has the authority

to be able to appoint
vacancies to the court.

>> And I think
that still stands.

>> I want to jump in little bit
on the

the issue about
the opportunity scholarships.

If you follow John's logic

which please
don't ever follow the logic

it's done loads of good
to the legislature

could conceivably hypothetically
pass a law in 2018

saying here is what the governor
has to recommend in 2019

and write a whole budget

and say here's what the governor
Cooper has to recommend.

Now does anybody think
that that would be that.

That's the logic of this
argument which is they can tell

the governor every single thing
he has to recommend --

[all talking]

>> I mean why not have the
discretion once it gets there

to do what they want to

so why put handcuffs on the
governor?

>> I understand that argument.

That's a good
prudential argument

against putting handcuffs
on the governor.

This is not about that. The
judges

and this is where Berger
is right about this.

This is not the judge it's not
the job of Supreme Court Justice

to determine the best
budget process.

Their job is only to determine

whether the
legislatures enactments

the legislatures led legislation

is consistent
with the constitution

or not say all of y'all
are making good arguments

as to why you might want
to structure the budget process

in a certain way that
the governor does not have

inherent constitutional
authority --

>> So the legislature is coming
back into town May 16th.

some of you guys
hang out around the legislature.

>> Signing day for all of us.

[laughter]

>> Any indication
what kind of items

might be on the agenda
when we come back.

For instance judicial

redistricting
are we going to see

that the short session
definitely heard a lot

about judicial selection.

>> There's a huge conversation
a lot of amendments

has continued
to continue to be push

which is a constitutional
constitutional amendment.

They've been pushed back from
special session special session

and now being hopeful going
to land in the short session.

>> I think there may be three or
four constitutional amendments

on the ballot in November.

>> Interesting. Well the war
between the executive

and legislative branches
in North Carolina

is not the only one going on.

President Trump has taken a had
line stance on our nation's

imbalance between
imports and exports.

He's instituted tariffs
on many foreign products

coming into our country

and some especially
China are retaliating.

Trump says he isn't shy
about engaging in trade wars.

But people in North Carolina
are worried that these wars

might make them casualties

and even China seems intent
to hurt those states

and the state economies
where Trump won in 2016.

In our state the farmers
particularly are concerned

about exports of tobacco
soybeans corn and poultry.

Your organization AFP
has come out in opposition

to these tariffs.
Tell us why.

>> Well tariffs are a tax plan
and simple.

And we see that tariffs increase
costs and decrease competition

and really limit choices

and it really takes a step
backwards from the gains

have been made by the jobs.

The tax cuts and Jobs Act that
was signed in December of 2017

where we have over 500 business
businesses countrywide

that are increasing salaries
for their employees

and their workers.

And we have just
we have 22 over 22

in North Carolina
from Apple to Chipotle

who are seeing value
in doing that.

And we in North Carolina
have history

that shows that lowering taxes

and decreasing economic
burden on businesses

all businesses create
a better environment.

>> We're talking about $2.3
billion in products

that we export to China and much
of that is in agriculture.

>> Here's the underreported
story in the state

of North Carolina
in rural North Carolina.

Right now our farmers
are not only in a recession.

Many of them
are in a depression.

They've had collapses
in the soybean market

the cotton market
and tobacco in particular.

So there are cash poor
and trying to get credit

from the traditional farm
credit services Tom

is like pulling hen's teeth.

>> Commodity prices
have tanked --

>> Right, you add the threat
of a tariff on soybeans

and on pork products
even though Smithfield's

are biggest pork producers

Chinese own, they'll
will be hurting themselves

there is very
threatening --

>> John you study
economies quite a bit.

You're our resident economists.

>> I don't have that credential.

>> But if this if these tariffs
do go into effect

not only are they
going to impact

the agricultural sector
of our economy

it's going to play out
all the way through

North Carolina's economy
is it not?

>> Well it is and in fact
we don't have to wonder

whether the Chinese
imposed tariffs will hurt

North Carolina exporters.

The American tariffs hurt North
Carolina exports remember

that some of our biggest
export businesses you

all talked about agriculture
and that's important

but we export a lot of
motor vehicles

and motor vehicle parts.
We don't make cars.

We make lots of trucks
and tractors and so forth

and we export aircraft
and aircraft parts.

These are industries
that require

affordable steel and aluminum

and to raise --

I mean there's
a whole bunch of things

that we're harming
ourselves in the notion

that we're going to ultimately
help ourselves in North Carolina

it's not a good plan.

>> Chris there are some people
who are saying

that Trump's actually
right about this situation

so far as China's concerned

they don't practice
fair trade practices

and up to this point.

Every president we've had
has tried to negotiate tried

to come up with solutions
and Trump's the only one so far

that's taken any action.

>> Several things first of all I
don't think anybody would argue

that they engage in
intellectual property

theft talk to anybody
in the tech world.

>> SAS, Apple. All these people
who develop programs China

will imitate them steal them

and then sell them
at cheaper prices.

And we haven't figured out
how to deal with that

on the tariff thing which is
that this is fascinating to me

because this is one area.

President Trump I'm no fan but
this is what he promised to do.

He hasn't done it yet.

He ran in many of these blue
collar areas

manufacturing areas

saying I'm going to
put tariffs on these goods

I'm going to protect
American jobs.

Now we can argue whether or not
it will protect American jobs

but everybody should have
known this was coming.

I do think the other thing
that's interesting

this gets into the free
trade argument overall he's.

He's complained about that
free trade agreements.

I do think he has
a sympathetic audience

among a broad spectrum of folks
when he talks about NAFTA

and TPP although now this
past week he came back

and said maybe we'll get back
in it we'll do TPP after all.

>> So I wonder if he realizes
that Mexico is one of the

signators for TPP?

>> Basically the bottom line
is he doesn't have it

doesn't seem to have
any kind of coherent plan.

That's the biggest issue. We
can't even have an honest debate

because you start
talking about trade

and he's changed his position
back and forth in a week.

>> Brad the president says
yes there will be

some short term pain

particularly in
the agricultural sector.

Then he turns around and he says
but our farmers are patriots.

Well I'm just wondering
how patriotic are these farmers

when their very lives existence

and incomes are going
to be threatened.

>> Yeah I don't know and does
the farmers rural North Carolina

has been practically
the base for Trump

here in the state
of North Carolina.

So it's definitely
going to take a chunk

out of their hide economic hide
as they move forward.

>> To reaffirm what you're
saying,

eighty five percent of North
Carolina farmers are white.

87 percent are men.
The average age is around 60.

These have been Republican
red voters for many years

in North Carolina.
Is a trade war

going to swing them
into a blue territory Anna?

>> I think they'll
definitely think about it.

A Quinnipiac poll that came
out this past month said

that two thirds of Americans
think a trade war

is bad for our economy.

>> Yeah well it's not much of
a transmission transition

to move to our next topic

and for weeks we're going
to be asked to vote

in the 2018 primary elections.

So far the only real excitement
has come in the courtroom

and not with ideological battles
between candidates.

Can't we expect these primary
contests to ever heat up

is the fact that it's so quiet

due to the fact that candidates

are having trouble
raising money.

They aren't any real
issues in the contest

or are they conducting
their campaigns differently.

You do this for a living.

>> I think the campaigns are
being conducted differently.

You're seeing a lot more
digital communications

so much more communications
on the various social platforms

Facebook in particular

and how they communicate
with the post

and then were paid
advertising on Facebook.

So it's not as visual
as we've seen in the past.

But Tom I will tell you I think
he got some really hot primaries

across the state

especially on the Republican
side in Charlotte

for example
on the Democratic side

the state Senate contest
down there involving Senator

for the State House
Rodney Moore.

Those are hotly contested race.

The there are
several sheriffs races

the Chatham County Sheriff's
race Pitt County sheriff's

race Duplin County
sheriff's race.

>> And I want to get
into more of that in a minute

if you don't mind Chris.

>> Let's talk about
the Supreme Court

ruling that came down
a short while ago

that essentially
changed the face

of this primary election
from the standpoint

that the U.S. Supreme Court

said that the redistricting

and the maps were drawn
primarily by Nate Persily.

The professor from out
in California

could be used with
the exception of Wake

and Mecklenburg County now.

So what's going to happen
there we're going to go back

to the 2011 maps

are we going to go to the maps
that the legislature drew

after the maps were
declared racially biased.

What are we going to be using.

>> Well think again
I'm not positive

I think we're going to use
the maps that were drawn

by the legislature not the judge

I mean that's what
the ruling is counting

in those counties right
and this is in the counties.

>> But here's the real issue --
>> They've asked for a stay.

>> We're probably past that,
we've got the maps.

>> The interesting thing about
this whole one of the things

they haven't talked about
and you just hit on it

one reason why other primaries
haven't heated up

is something a lot of people
candidates a lot of other folks

didn't know what district
they were going to be

and there a lot of uncertainty.

The second thing is there
are some isolated primaries

but this entire election
is about I think

and Republicans are going to try
to make it about something else

is about the direction of the
country under President Trump.

He's sucking all the
for the wind

and there are so many people
used to follow state politics

and they still do.

But when I asked them the first
thing they want to talk about

is what is Trump doing today.

And that's it. That's a big
it's going to be a big issue

but this whole campaign
>> A.B. do you agree with that?

>> This is all about Trump.

>> I think it's not going to be
about Trump actually.

What's interesting to me
is that it feels like

we're in the eye of a hurricane

and we know something is coming.

We've seen across the country
focus on different races

whether it's the Virginia
governor's race

or the Wisconsin judicial race.

Lots of focus is being
shifted around the country.

But waiting for it
to happen here

is definitely something
that is top on the list.

>> I like your analogy.

We're in the it's kind of
quiet there in the eye.

The winds are blowing all over.

So let's do get to some
of these particular races.

Brad you mentioned some of them
I think one of them

this is the particularly
related to white count

is House District 11 John

where we've got
Dwayne Hall a Democrat

facing two challengers.

Lot of noise made about the fat

he's been accused
of sexual harassment

a claim that he denies.

The governor and many
prominent Democrats

have asked him to step down
but he's refused.

How might that affect
his election.

>> Well there's is just
one challenger now.

So it's a it's a two way race.

But I would say that race
got a lot of initial attention.

I think he has not given up
on winning that primary.

And I wouldn't
count it out entirely.

But there are there
are many race

and I agree with Brad
about that nature.

Like I'm not the target
audience for that race.

I haven't gotten
all the messaging

but I've been watching
some of the other primaries

around the state

that are vicious
and very emotional

and lot you know you know
150 comments on face.

There are lots of
very active primaries.

It's just there isn't
as much news media attention

to some of these
legislative news media.

Absolutely.

>> I want to I want to get
a couple of other things.

Number one the Rucho election

obviously is something --
>> Four candidates in that race.

>> And it is worth remembering
that he used to live

in Charlotte moving Iredell
county and he's

running in a district --
>> The race I really want

to talk about
as a congressional race.

>> I think that's the only one

that is the 3rd District
congressional race.

>> Walter Jones running against
a Craven County commissioner

and a Marine and a
>> Had a big blow up this week

over I can't remember
what the issue was but

>> It doesn't matter really.

>> Well no doubt we'll be
talking about this more

as we get closer
to the May 8 primaries

but I right now have to stop
and ask the question

that the viewers would be irate
if I didn't get to

and that is tell us something we
don't know, John Hood.

>> The taxpayers
of North Carolina appropriate

about ten thousand
dollars per student

on average in the UNC system.

This is current. This is not -
well it used to be that way.

It has been radically cut
by the radical Republicans.

It is still depending by
how you compute at the second

or fifth highest level of state

spending on universities
in the United States.

In North Carolina the taxpayers
are extremely generous

to the University
of North Carolina system

by national standards.

>> Tell us something
we don't know.

>> National Crime Victims
Rights Week.

And one of the constitutional
amendments we were talking about

that's going to be
under consideration

in the state Senate
will be Marcy's Law.

Whether or not victims
of crime in North Carolina

have constitutional rights.
>> Get compensated for it.

Anna Beavon tell us
something we don't know.

>> This week CEO of Facebook
Mark Zuckerberg

testified before both House

and Senate
congressional committees

and mixed reaction
across the Internet.

But what's the big takeaway
that his stock for Facebook

went up 4.5 percent which is a
large state game it happened t.

>> Interesting Chris.

Fitzsimon tell us something
we don't know.

>> Talking about the campaigns
and I'm not saying I believe it

but there are a lot
of Democratic folks

saying at events now

that they're they think
they're going to break

not only break the super
majority in the House

but they're starting to think
they have an outside chance

of taking the state House

which would dramatically change
the calculus in North Carolina.

I'm not I'm a believer yet
but the fact that that's being

that's the rhetoric out there
is sort of interesting.

>> Interesting.

Well you've heard our spin
on the issues of the day.

Stay informed all during
the week give your feedback

and read my weekly column.

Be sure to visit our Web site
ncspin.com

or catch NC Spin on Facebook

and join us next week

for more balanced debate
for the Old North State.

Until then stay informed
and watch out for the spin.

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Despite a health care landscape

for help with potential
landmines family physicians

across North Carolina

are providing you
a lifetime of committed

dependable medical care

family physicians your trusted
health care adviser for life.

>> Agriculture is North
Carolina's

number one economic driver.

>> It puts people to work
it powers our economy.

And as agriculture grows
so does our quality of life.

North Carolina Farm Bureau
is proud to support agriculture

and our farmers
because agriculture.

>> Connects us all.
>>

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