>> This is NC Spin
and unrehearsed discussion
on issues of interest
in North Carolina.
Now here is your
moderator Tom Campbell.
We're not superstitious
but we want to welcome you
to the Friday the 13th edition
of balance debate
for the old state
which by the way happens to be
our 13th show on UNC-TV.
Well temperatures aren't the
only thing warming up this week.
Our panel will debate
the ongoing wars
between the executive
and legislative branches
and talk about
the latest court verdicts.
We'll examine the potential
for trade wars
and how they could affect
our state's economy.
And four weeks before
the May 8 primary
the only fireworks
seemed to be in the courtroom.
We'll talk about it.
And you wouldn't won't let us go
without our panel
telling us something
we don't know.
Joining us this week
on the panel
are Brad Crone political
consultant and analyst
John Hood's syndicated
columnist and author
Chris Fitzsimon Political
Analyst and columnist.
And Anna Beavon Gravely
welcome to the show.
For the first time
political analyst
and with Americans
for Prosperity
Well we're going to begin
our uninterrupted debate
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>> Let's get started.
The war between the executive
and legislative branches
of our government
which started when Pat McCrory
was governor has escalated
to the point where just about
any action either side takes
is surely going to result
in a lawsuit from the other.
Some court cases
resulted in lawsuits
by the Republican
led legislature.
Others handed verdicts
against the executive branch.
The latest ruling dealt
with who had the authority
to determine how millions
of dollars in settlements
from this to the state
from Volkswagen would be spent.
And a three judge panel affirmed
the legislature
has the authority
to appropriate that money
even in court settlements.
Chris let's start
with the basics here.
It is well known
and acknowledged
we have one of the we guess
executive branches
of all the states
and the legislature has
the majority of power
in North Carolina.
And this was originally done
when the columnists were fed up
with the tyrannical king
in England.
The question many
are asking right now
is is this balance of power
tilting too far in favor
of the legislative branch.
>> Well you know we even had
a weaker governor up
until the veto power
was passed we were
the only state in the veto
for many years that the governor
didn't have the veto
it gets changed
in the mid 90s
and now I think our governor
is a little more powerful
than he or she was.
But there's a couple
of things going on here.
One is I do think we constantly
need to look at this
and the balance of powers
but what appalls me frankly
is the way we're looking
at it this time
remember a lot of
these big battles
started in a special session.
Nobody knew was going to happen.
It was wasn't called
until five minutes
before it was held in December
after Roy Cooper
was elected governor.
And other than
the Volkswagen suit
and whatever you want to say
about the pipeline fund
I think for the most
part Governor Cooper
hasn't been trying
to seize more power.
He's been fending off bizarre
attempts to take power
away from him again.
I'm not saying necessarily
we have the right balance
but what we have is a terrible
process to figure it out
before we make significant
changes in power.
We need a thoughtful process.
>> John, from where I sit
it almost looks like this
legislature is deliberately
trying to devise legislation
that pushes the limits of power
for the executive branch
and to pick fights with them.
Is that fair.
>> Well I think they would argue
that they are defending
the legislature's preeminent
role in state government.
They've fully in fact
both parties back
when the Democrats
were in charge
they made no bones about
the fact that the legislature
isn't an equal branch
of government
with the governor
and the Supreme Court.
It's a superior branch.
That's their argument.
They're very explicit about it
and that's a pretty good
reading of the Constitution.
I think in this particular case
with the settlement
dollars for example
I don't agree
with Chris about this.
I think this wasn't a step
for the governor to assert power
that no previous governor
has ever really enjoyed.
That is pretty clearly not
justified by the Constitution.
The notion that
you can accept money
from the federal government
or from a settlement
or something
and directed without the
legislature's control is odd
and I'm surprised that wasn't
a unanimous decision.
>> We've been having these
arguments going back and forth
even before Governor Cooper
came oh was facing --
>> The late 1790s.
>> So --
>> Tom remembers that!
>> I was
a young boy at the time.
Here's my question
who's keeping score here.
Who's winning
the legislature winning.
The governor winning?
Or is it kind of a draw.
>> Finally if I was
keeping score
I would say the is winning.
The legislature has always won
and based on our state
constitution
from the development of it
in 1790 to 1793 post Civil War
and even the new development
of the state constitution
in the late 1960s
the legislatures won
and they will continue to win.
Now I would argue with you
about whether or not
we have a weak governorship.
I contend our
governorship strength
is based on the individual
of the governor
and in particular
for example Jim Hunt
was a very powerful governor
and use the leverage that he had
had we had powerful governors
since Jim Hunt
left office in 2001.
That's a big question mark.
>> Anna, I think a lot of people
would say
regardless of Brad's
keeping score
as to who's winning who's losing
the people of North Carolina
probably are the ones
that are losing
because we're having to pay
all these exorbitant court costs
and get tied up when we could
be talking about issues
instead of going to court.
Would you agree.
>> Absolutely. I mean
you're absolutely right.
I think the part that stands
out to me more than anything
is just the power
of the judicial branch
and this conversation is how so
many things are going to court
so many things
are being decided by
by small panels of judges
and that's what's confusing.
>> That's a good point because
we're really kind of tilt power
over toward them a little bit.
>> Absolutely and I think that's
what's most confusing.
>> So let's look
at this latest verdict
that came out, three judge panel
ruled that the legislature
alone has the power
to determine the Volkswagen
settlement money
which by the way
is 92 million dollars.
Senate President
Pro Tem Phil Berger
applauded the decision
from the court
saying the Constitution gives
the appropriations authority
to 170 people not one.
Agree or disagree.
>> I think that we're going to
see I don't think this is over.
You know this is a three judge
panel this is going to go like
all these decisions the Supreme
Court which is four to three.
I think tilting more toward
the Democratic point of view
although I think there's easily
an argument to be made
that the legislature
should do this.
What has happened in the past.
The most famous examples
the golden leaf fund
the legislature
has the authority
but the governor works closely
with the legislature
and comes up with a plan.
I think the best thing would be
if they could figure out a way
to cooperate in these areas
and give the governor input.
The other thing I think
it's important to jump in here
and say one of the things
that most distressing is that
when Senator Berger's
reaction to this decision
when Senator Berger wins
he praises the court.
When Senator Berger loses
and his allies
they'll question
whether or not the judge
should take off their robes
and run for the legislature
and they're outraged --
>> The legitimacy of the court
>> The legitimacy of the court
I think it's worth
noting Governor Cooper
and others are disappointed
in the decisions
but they're not questioning
the very process
by which judges make decisions
and that's a big difference.
>> OK, so help us
understand Brad,
the opportunity
scholarships part
of that decision that came out.
It said as I understood
it dealing vouchers
for private schools
that the governor should include
an additional
ten million dollars per year
in his budget proposals
for the coming year.
Now Governor Cooper
is looking at this
and saying hey they got the
ability and authority
to to appropriate money
but they can't tell me
how to craft a budget.
>> I think he's
absolutely right.
I think the prescription process
is flawed in that ruling Tom.
Clearly the legislature has
the constitutional authority
to appropriate money
but I don't think that
it's right for the courts
to prescribe how the governor
should recommend
to the legislature the
appropriation of state funds.
>> I might suggest
I disagree about that.
And here's the reason:
the governor's current process
by which he follows
to get all the stuff
from the various departments
and proposed budget
legislature that's statutory.
>> Yes.
>> There's nothing
in the constitution
that lays all that out.
>> But there's nothing in
the Constitution that tells him
he's got to appropriate
a certain amount of money --
>> What I'm saying
is the legislature
has this can pass a law
that determines how the governor
puts his budget together.
That's the system
we currently live in,
that was created by
the legislature.
>> May be that this
panel also said
that the legislature
had the power
to shrink the size of the court
of appeals from 15 down
to 12 members reading article
4 section 7 of the Constitution.
It clearly says that the general
assembly has the authority
from time to time
to increase or decrease.
The governor said
that it limited his authority
to be able to appoint judges
when a vacancy is created.
We're not lawyers but does
that argument make sense to you?
>> That argument does not
make sense to me.
He still has the authority
to be able to appoint
vacancies to the court.
>> And I think
that still stands.
>> I want to jump in little bit
on the
the issue about
the opportunity scholarships.
If you follow John's logic
which please
don't ever follow the logic
it's done loads of good
to the legislature
could conceivably hypothetically
pass a law in 2018
saying here is what the governor
has to recommend in 2019
and write a whole budget
and say here's what the governor
Cooper has to recommend.
Now does anybody think
that that would be that.
That's the logic of this
argument which is they can tell
the governor every single thing
he has to recommend --
[all talking]
>> I mean why not have the
discretion once it gets there
to do what they want to
so why put handcuffs on the
governor?
>> I understand that argument.
That's a good
prudential argument
against putting handcuffs
on the governor.
This is not about that. The
judges
and this is where Berger
is right about this.
This is not the judge it's not
the job of Supreme Court Justice
to determine the best
budget process.
Their job is only to determine
whether the
legislatures enactments
the legislatures led legislation
is consistent
with the constitution
or not say all of y'all
are making good arguments
as to why you might want
to structure the budget process
in a certain way that
the governor does not have
inherent constitutional
authority --
>> So the legislature is coming
back into town May 16th.
some of you guys
hang out around the legislature.
>> Signing day for all of us.
[laughter]
>> Any indication
what kind of items
might be on the agenda
when we come back.
For instance judicial
redistricting
are we going to see
that the short session
definitely heard a lot
about judicial selection.
>> There's a huge conversation
a lot of amendments
has continued
to continue to be push
which is a constitutional
constitutional amendment.
They've been pushed back from
special session special session
and now being hopeful going
to land in the short session.
>> I think there may be three or
four constitutional amendments
on the ballot in November.
>> Interesting. Well the war
between the executive
and legislative branches
in North Carolina
is not the only one going on.
President Trump has taken a had
line stance on our nation's
imbalance between
imports and exports.
He's instituted tariffs
on many foreign products
coming into our country
and some especially
China are retaliating.
Trump says he isn't shy
about engaging in trade wars.
But people in North Carolina
are worried that these wars
might make them casualties
and even China seems intent
to hurt those states
and the state economies
where Trump won in 2016.
In our state the farmers
particularly are concerned
about exports of tobacco
soybeans corn and poultry.
Your organization AFP
has come out in opposition
to these tariffs.
Tell us why.
>> Well tariffs are a tax plan
and simple.
And we see that tariffs increase
costs and decrease competition
and really limit choices
and it really takes a step
backwards from the gains
have been made by the jobs.
The tax cuts and Jobs Act that
was signed in December of 2017
where we have over 500 business
businesses countrywide
that are increasing salaries
for their employees
and their workers.
And we have just
we have 22 over 22
in North Carolina
from Apple to Chipotle
who are seeing value
in doing that.
And we in North Carolina
have history
that shows that lowering taxes
and decreasing economic
burden on businesses
all businesses create
a better environment.
>> We're talking about $2.3
billion in products
that we export to China and much
of that is in agriculture.
>> Here's the underreported
story in the state
of North Carolina
in rural North Carolina.
Right now our farmers
are not only in a recession.
Many of them
are in a depression.
They've had collapses
in the soybean market
the cotton market
and tobacco in particular.
So there are cash poor
and trying to get credit
from the traditional farm
credit services Tom
is like pulling hen's teeth.
>> Commodity prices
have tanked --
>> Right, you add the threat
of a tariff on soybeans
and on pork products
even though Smithfield's
are biggest pork producers
Chinese own, they'll
will be hurting themselves
there is very
threatening --
>> John you study
economies quite a bit.
You're our resident economists.
>> I don't have that credential.
>> But if this if these tariffs
do go into effect
not only are they
going to impact
the agricultural sector
of our economy
it's going to play out
all the way through
North Carolina's economy
is it not?
>> Well it is and in fact
we don't have to wonder
whether the Chinese
imposed tariffs will hurt
North Carolina exporters.
The American tariffs hurt North
Carolina exports remember
that some of our biggest
export businesses you
all talked about agriculture
and that's important
but we export a lot of
motor vehicles
and motor vehicle parts.
We don't make cars.
We make lots of trucks
and tractors and so forth
and we export aircraft
and aircraft parts.
These are industries
that require
affordable steel and aluminum
and to raise --
I mean there's
a whole bunch of things
that we're harming
ourselves in the notion
that we're going to ultimately
help ourselves in North Carolina
it's not a good plan.
>> Chris there are some people
who are saying
that Trump's actually
right about this situation
so far as China's concerned
they don't practice
fair trade practices
and up to this point.
Every president we've had
has tried to negotiate tried
to come up with solutions
and Trump's the only one so far
that's taken any action.
>> Several things first of all I
don't think anybody would argue
that they engage in
intellectual property
theft talk to anybody
in the tech world.
>> SAS, Apple. All these people
who develop programs China
will imitate them steal them
and then sell them
at cheaper prices.
And we haven't figured out
how to deal with that
on the tariff thing which is
that this is fascinating to me
because this is one area.
President Trump I'm no fan but
this is what he promised to do.
He hasn't done it yet.
He ran in many of these blue
collar areas
manufacturing areas
saying I'm going to
put tariffs on these goods
I'm going to protect
American jobs.
Now we can argue whether or not
it will protect American jobs
but everybody should have
known this was coming.
I do think the other thing
that's interesting
this gets into the free
trade argument overall he's.
He's complained about that
free trade agreements.
I do think he has
a sympathetic audience
among a broad spectrum of folks
when he talks about NAFTA
and TPP although now this
past week he came back
and said maybe we'll get back
in it we'll do TPP after all.
>> So I wonder if he realizes
that Mexico is one of the
signators for TPP?
>> Basically the bottom line
is he doesn't have it
doesn't seem to have
any kind of coherent plan.
That's the biggest issue. We
can't even have an honest debate
because you start
talking about trade
and he's changed his position
back and forth in a week.
>> Brad the president says
yes there will be
some short term pain
particularly in
the agricultural sector.
Then he turns around and he says
but our farmers are patriots.
Well I'm just wondering
how patriotic are these farmers
when their very lives existence
and incomes are going
to be threatened.
>> Yeah I don't know and does
the farmers rural North Carolina
has been practically
the base for Trump
here in the state
of North Carolina.
So it's definitely
going to take a chunk
out of their hide economic hide
as they move forward.
>> To reaffirm what you're
saying,
eighty five percent of North
Carolina farmers are white.
87 percent are men.
The average age is around 60.
These have been Republican
red voters for many years
in North Carolina.
Is a trade war
going to swing them
into a blue territory Anna?
>> I think they'll
definitely think about it.
A Quinnipiac poll that came
out this past month said
that two thirds of Americans
think a trade war
is bad for our economy.
>> Yeah well it's not much of
a transmission transition
to move to our next topic
and for weeks we're going
to be asked to vote
in the 2018 primary elections.
So far the only real excitement
has come in the courtroom
and not with ideological battles
between candidates.
Can't we expect these primary
contests to ever heat up
is the fact that it's so quiet
due to the fact that candidates
are having trouble
raising money.
They aren't any real
issues in the contest
or are they conducting
their campaigns differently.
You do this for a living.
>> I think the campaigns are
being conducted differently.
You're seeing a lot more
digital communications
so much more communications
on the various social platforms
Facebook in particular
and how they communicate
with the post
and then were paid
advertising on Facebook.
So it's not as visual
as we've seen in the past.
But Tom I will tell you I think
he got some really hot primaries
across the state
especially on the Republican
side in Charlotte
for example
on the Democratic side
the state Senate contest
down there involving Senator
for the State House
Rodney Moore.
Those are hotly contested race.
The there are
several sheriffs races
the Chatham County Sheriff's
race Pitt County sheriff's
race Duplin County
sheriff's race.
>> And I want to get
into more of that in a minute
if you don't mind Chris.
>> Let's talk about
the Supreme Court
ruling that came down
a short while ago
that essentially
changed the face
of this primary election
from the standpoint
that the U.S. Supreme Court
said that the redistricting
and the maps were drawn
primarily by Nate Persily.
The professor from out
in California
could be used with
the exception of Wake
and Mecklenburg County now.
So what's going to happen
there we're going to go back
to the 2011 maps
are we going to go to the maps
that the legislature drew
after the maps were
declared racially biased.
What are we going to be using.
>> Well think again
I'm not positive
I think we're going to use
the maps that were drawn
by the legislature not the judge
I mean that's what
the ruling is counting
in those counties right
and this is in the counties.
>> But here's the real issue --
>> They've asked for a stay.
>> We're probably past that,
we've got the maps.
>> The interesting thing about
this whole one of the things
they haven't talked about
and you just hit on it
one reason why other primaries
haven't heated up
is something a lot of people
candidates a lot of other folks
didn't know what district
they were going to be
and there a lot of uncertainty.
The second thing is there
are some isolated primaries
but this entire election
is about I think
and Republicans are going to try
to make it about something else
is about the direction of the
country under President Trump.
He's sucking all the
for the wind
and there are so many people
used to follow state politics
and they still do.
But when I asked them the first
thing they want to talk about
is what is Trump doing today.
And that's it. That's a big
it's going to be a big issue
but this whole campaign
>> A.B. do you agree with that?
>> This is all about Trump.
>> I think it's not going to be
about Trump actually.
What's interesting to me
is that it feels like
we're in the eye of a hurricane
and we know something is coming.
We've seen across the country
focus on different races
whether it's the Virginia
governor's race
or the Wisconsin judicial race.
Lots of focus is being
shifted around the country.
But waiting for it
to happen here
is definitely something
that is top on the list.
>> I like your analogy.
We're in the it's kind of
quiet there in the eye.
The winds are blowing all over.
So let's do get to some
of these particular races.
Brad you mentioned some of them
I think one of them
this is the particularly
related to white count
is House District 11 John
where we've got
Dwayne Hall a Democrat
facing two challengers.
Lot of noise made about the fat
he's been accused
of sexual harassment
a claim that he denies.
The governor and many
prominent Democrats
have asked him to step down
but he's refused.
How might that affect
his election.
>> Well there's is just
one challenger now.
So it's a it's a two way race.
But I would say that race
got a lot of initial attention.
I think he has not given up
on winning that primary.
And I wouldn't
count it out entirely.
But there are there
are many race
and I agree with Brad
about that nature.
Like I'm not the target
audience for that race.
I haven't gotten
all the messaging
but I've been watching
some of the other primaries
around the state
that are vicious
and very emotional
and lot you know you know
150 comments on face.
There are lots of
very active primaries.
It's just there isn't
as much news media attention
to some of these
legislative news media.
Absolutely.
>> I want to I want to get
a couple of other things.
Number one the Rucho election
obviously is something --
>> Four candidates in that race.
>> And it is worth remembering
that he used to live
in Charlotte moving Iredell
county and he's
running in a district --
>> The race I really want
to talk about
as a congressional race.
>> I think that's the only one
that is the 3rd District
congressional race.
>> Walter Jones running against
a Craven County commissioner
and a Marine and a
>> Had a big blow up this week
over I can't remember
what the issue was but
>> It doesn't matter really.
>> Well no doubt we'll be
talking about this more
as we get closer
to the May 8 primaries
but I right now have to stop
and ask the question
that the viewers would be irate
if I didn't get to
and that is tell us something we
don't know, John Hood.
>> The taxpayers
of North Carolina appropriate
about ten thousand
dollars per student
on average in the UNC system.
This is current. This is not -
well it used to be that way.
It has been radically cut
by the radical Republicans.
It is still depending by
how you compute at the second
or fifth highest level of state
spending on universities
in the United States.
In North Carolina the taxpayers
are extremely generous
to the University
of North Carolina system
by national standards.
>> Tell us something
we don't know.
>> National Crime Victims
Rights Week.
And one of the constitutional
amendments we were talking about
that's going to be
under consideration
in the state Senate
will be Marcy's Law.
Whether or not victims
of crime in North Carolina
have constitutional rights.
>> Get compensated for it.
Anna Beavon tell us
something we don't know.
>> This week CEO of Facebook
Mark Zuckerberg
testified before both House
and Senate
congressional committees
and mixed reaction
across the Internet.
But what's the big takeaway
that his stock for Facebook
went up 4.5 percent which is a
large state game it happened t.
>> Interesting Chris.
Fitzsimon tell us something
we don't know.
>> Talking about the campaigns
and I'm not saying I believe it
but there are a lot
of Democratic folks
saying at events now
that they're they think
they're going to break
not only break the super
majority in the House
but they're starting to think
they have an outside chance
of taking the state House
which would dramatically change
the calculus in North Carolina.
I'm not I'm a believer yet
but the fact that that's being
that's the rhetoric out there
is sort of interesting.
>> Interesting.
Well you've heard our spin
on the issues of the day.
Stay informed all during
the week give your feedback
and read my weekly column.
Be sure to visit our Web site
ncspin.com
or catch NC Spin on Facebook
and join us next week
for more balanced debate
for the Old North State.
Until then stay informed
and watch out for the spin.
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>> Agriculture is North
Carolina's
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>> It puts people to work
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And as agriculture grows
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North Carolina Farm Bureau
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