1 00:00:02,902 --> 00:00:04,938 - [Announcer] This is NC Spin. 2 00:00:05,038 --> 00:00:07,173 An unrehearsed discussion on issues of interest 3 00:00:07,273 --> 00:00:08,341 to North Carolinians. 4 00:00:08,441 --> 00:00:11,444 Now, here is your moderator, Tom Campbell. 5 00:00:14,114 --> 00:00:17,083 - Welcome to balanced debate for the Old North State. 6 00:00:17,183 --> 00:00:18,918 We hope you rested up over the Easter holiday 7 00:00:19,019 --> 00:00:21,488 'cause we're got a full agenda for you. 8 00:00:21,588 --> 00:00:23,156 We begin by asking our panel 9 00:00:23,256 --> 00:00:25,225 to discuss a new program called Restart 10 00:00:25,325 --> 00:00:27,827 that gives low performing schools in our state 11 00:00:27,927 --> 00:00:29,129 more flexibility. 12 00:00:29,229 --> 00:00:31,364 UNC President Margaret Spellings 13 00:00:31,464 --> 00:00:33,266 has just completed two years on the job 14 00:00:33,366 --> 00:00:35,602 and we talk about a performance bonus given her. 15 00:00:35,702 --> 00:00:38,071 We have a prison crisis in our state 16 00:00:38,171 --> 00:00:39,606 and we debate how we can fix it. 17 00:00:39,706 --> 00:00:41,241 And of course, we won't stop 18 00:00:41,341 --> 00:00:43,977 until the panel tells us something we don't know. 19 00:00:44,077 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaking of said panel, let's welcome this week's analysts. 20 00:00:47,380 --> 00:00:48,581 They include: 21 00:00:48,681 --> 00:00:50,984 Howard Lee, former State Senator and former Chair 22 00:00:51,084 --> 00:00:52,886 of the State Board of Education; 23 00:00:52,986 --> 00:00:55,989 Chris Fitzsimon, columnist and political analyst; 24 00:00:56,089 --> 00:00:59,159 Becki Gray with the John Locke Foundation; 25 00:00:59,259 --> 00:01:02,929 and Bob Orr, the former Supreme Court Justice. 26 00:01:03,029 --> 00:01:05,298 Well, we begin our uninterrupted debate 27 00:01:05,398 --> 00:01:08,068 after these brief messages from our underwriters. 28 00:01:10,270 --> 00:01:11,037 - [Narrator] Life's busy, 29 00:01:11,137 --> 00:01:12,238 but you're in control. 30 00:01:12,338 --> 00:01:14,474 As an electric cooperative member, 31 00:01:14,574 --> 00:01:16,242 you have access to lots of tools 32 00:01:16,342 --> 00:01:18,678 to help manage your home energy use and budget 33 00:01:18,778 --> 00:01:21,681 so you can focus on what's most important. 34 00:01:23,450 --> 00:01:26,119 - Quality of life enjoyed by North Carolinians 35 00:01:26,219 --> 00:01:28,121 comes from the sacrifice of our state 36 00:01:28,221 --> 00:01:30,256 and local government retirees. 37 00:01:30,356 --> 00:01:31,958 These men and women risked their lives 38 00:01:32,058 --> 00:01:33,026 in time of danger, 39 00:01:33,126 --> 00:01:34,360 they taught our children, 40 00:01:34,461 --> 00:01:36,062 kept our neighborhoods clean, 41 00:01:36,162 --> 00:01:38,832 and protected the state's resources. 42 00:01:38,932 --> 00:01:41,634 They are North Carolina's silent heroes. 43 00:01:41,734 --> 00:01:43,536 The North Carolina Retired Governmental 44 00:01:43,636 --> 00:01:45,004 Employees Association 45 00:01:45,105 --> 00:01:46,706 proudly serves as the voice 46 00:01:46,806 --> 00:01:50,677 for more than 300,000 retirees across North Carolina. 47 00:01:50,777 --> 00:01:52,445 Our retirees deserve no less 48 00:01:52,545 --> 00:01:54,547 and every day, we stand by them. 49 00:01:56,516 --> 00:01:58,751 - For many years, North Carolina has struggled 50 00:01:58,852 --> 00:02:01,254 with what to do about low performing schools, 51 00:02:01,354 --> 00:02:03,389 those schools that don't achieve as much 52 00:02:03,490 --> 00:02:04,824 as others around them. 53 00:02:04,924 --> 00:02:07,627 We're now undertaking a program called Restart. 54 00:02:07,727 --> 00:02:09,162 Somewhat similar to charter schools, 55 00:02:09,262 --> 00:02:11,297 and at these low performing schools 56 00:02:11,397 --> 00:02:13,833 are gonna have more flexibility and fewer regulations 57 00:02:13,933 --> 00:02:14,934 with which to deal. 58 00:02:15,034 --> 00:02:16,903 They can arbitrarily to decide 59 00:02:17,003 --> 00:02:19,873 to extend the school year, the school day, 60 00:02:19,973 --> 00:02:21,975 use funds in different ways, 61 00:02:22,075 --> 00:02:24,110 have more flexibility in hiring teachers, 62 00:02:24,210 --> 00:02:25,345 and teaching methods. 63 00:02:25,445 --> 00:02:26,579 Howard Lee is a former Chair 64 00:02:26,679 --> 00:02:27,814 of the State Board of Education 65 00:02:27,914 --> 00:02:29,983 and someone who is now head of a foundation 66 00:02:30,083 --> 00:02:32,785 working directly with schools in our state. 67 00:02:32,886 --> 00:02:35,788 What's your opinion of this new Restart program? 68 00:02:35,889 --> 00:02:37,891 - Well, I think it's a new name that's being 69 00:02:37,991 --> 00:02:40,093 overlayed on an old continued problem, 70 00:02:40,193 --> 00:02:42,195 and that is that 71 00:02:42,295 --> 00:02:44,197 while they give flexibility to the schools, 72 00:02:44,297 --> 00:02:47,567 many of these schools have had flexibility all along, 73 00:02:47,667 --> 00:02:49,636 especially in the office of the principal. 74 00:02:49,736 --> 00:02:51,638 I'm concerned that we are too 75 00:02:51,738 --> 00:02:53,840 completely missing the boat unless we're willing 76 00:02:53,940 --> 00:02:57,844 to completely flip the education pedagogy 77 00:02:57,944 --> 00:03:00,013 on its head and change how we are 78 00:03:00,113 --> 00:03:02,949 instructing and educating kids. 79 00:03:03,049 --> 00:03:05,218 - So you're saying it's not rules and regulations 80 00:03:05,318 --> 00:03:07,654 as much as it is the actual instructional... 81 00:03:07,754 --> 00:03:09,556 - The actual instructional process 82 00:03:09,656 --> 00:03:11,157 and that, of course, starts, 83 00:03:11,257 --> 00:03:14,961 starts and stops with the principal at the school, 84 00:03:15,061 --> 00:03:17,297 and keeping teachers in the classroom 85 00:03:17,397 --> 00:03:18,831 for an extended period of time. 86 00:03:18,932 --> 00:03:21,501 - Chris, a low performing school 87 00:03:21,601 --> 00:03:26,039 is defined as a school that scores a D or an F 88 00:03:26,139 --> 00:03:28,208 on the annual evaluation that it receives, 89 00:03:28,308 --> 00:03:31,444 and it's due to the achievement that's less 90 00:03:31,544 --> 00:03:32,645 than expected 91 00:03:32,745 --> 00:03:34,347 for two out of three years. 92 00:03:34,447 --> 00:03:38,017 There are currently 500 schools in North Carolina 93 00:03:38,117 --> 00:03:39,485 that fit into that category 94 00:03:39,586 --> 00:03:42,388 and the list is growing every year. 95 00:03:42,488 --> 00:03:43,556 Why? 96 00:03:43,656 --> 00:03:44,490 - Well, that's a good question, 97 00:03:44,591 --> 00:03:45,291 we need to figure it out. 98 00:03:45,391 --> 00:03:46,793 But one thing we do know 99 00:03:46,893 --> 00:03:49,596 is that 90, between 95 and 97% over the last years 100 00:03:49,696 --> 00:03:51,130 of the schools that have a D or an F 101 00:03:51,231 --> 00:03:53,199 are schools with higher than 50% of their students 102 00:03:53,299 --> 00:03:54,901 who receive free and reduced lunch. 103 00:03:55,001 --> 00:03:56,903 That's based on the formula that we use 104 00:03:57,003 --> 00:03:58,204 to give schools a letter grade. 105 00:03:58,304 --> 00:03:59,472 So if you're a low performing school, 106 00:03:59,572 --> 00:04:00,673 if you're a low income school, 107 00:04:00,773 --> 00:04:02,108 and you dramatically improve, 108 00:04:02,208 --> 00:04:05,178 you don't, you could still have a D or an F 109 00:04:05,278 --> 00:04:06,379 year after year after year 110 00:04:06,479 --> 00:04:08,414 because all the numbers keep going up. 111 00:04:08,514 --> 00:04:09,682 There's been... 112 00:04:09,782 --> 00:04:11,050 - And that part of it is weighed more heavily... 113 00:04:11,150 --> 00:04:12,252 - It's 80% of the grade, 114 00:04:12,352 --> 00:04:14,053 and we've had Republican houses pass the bill 115 00:04:14,153 --> 00:04:15,288 saying it should be 50/50. 116 00:04:15,388 --> 00:04:16,389 We want you to have, 117 00:04:16,489 --> 00:04:17,590 get to a certain level, 118 00:04:17,690 --> 00:04:19,425 but we wanna reward your growth and hardwork 119 00:04:19,525 --> 00:04:21,361 and achievement, and the Senate has refused 120 00:04:21,461 --> 00:04:22,595 to even take that up. 121 00:04:22,695 --> 00:04:23,963 The House even put it in the budget one year. 122 00:04:24,063 --> 00:04:25,498 So part of the problem, I don't disagree 123 00:04:25,598 --> 00:04:27,200 with Senator Lee at all, 124 00:04:27,300 --> 00:04:28,368 but part of the problem we have 125 00:04:28,468 --> 00:04:29,902 is how we categorize these schools. 126 00:04:30,003 --> 00:04:31,738 There are a lot of 'em where kids are making progress 127 00:04:31,838 --> 00:04:33,206 and they still get a D or an F 128 00:04:33,306 --> 00:04:34,641 which hurts the morale at the school, 129 00:04:34,741 --> 00:04:36,242 hurts the parents' view of the school, 130 00:04:36,342 --> 00:04:37,810 hurts how the teachers view themselves, 131 00:04:37,910 --> 00:04:39,045 and I think we need to change that. 132 00:04:39,145 --> 00:04:41,347 - Becki, the Department of Public Instruction 133 00:04:41,447 --> 00:04:42,849 talking about low performing schools, 134 00:04:42,949 --> 00:04:44,217 I mean, one of the things 135 00:04:44,317 --> 00:04:46,452 that comes to mind obviously, 136 00:04:46,552 --> 00:04:47,487 is we gotta come in here 137 00:04:47,587 --> 00:04:49,555 and reinforce and help 138 00:04:49,656 --> 00:04:52,292 that school perhaps, more than we do other schools. 139 00:04:52,392 --> 00:04:54,994 Department of Public Instruction says 140 00:04:55,094 --> 00:04:56,229 we don't have the money for that. 141 00:04:56,329 --> 00:04:58,898 We're not given extra appropriations for that. 142 00:04:58,998 --> 00:05:01,934 Significantly enough to make any difference. 143 00:05:02,035 --> 00:05:02,769 Should they? 144 00:05:02,869 --> 00:05:04,137 - Well, Tom... 145 00:05:04,237 --> 00:05:04,937 - [Tom] Should the legislature give it to them? 146 00:05:05,038 --> 00:05:06,439 - Well, that depends on 147 00:05:06,539 --> 00:05:08,441 do you need the money and what do you need it for? 148 00:05:08,541 --> 00:05:10,176 Some of these things like the Restart program 149 00:05:10,276 --> 00:05:11,377 that you're talking about, 150 00:05:11,477 --> 00:05:13,012 about giving those low performing schools 151 00:05:13,112 --> 00:05:15,748 more flexibility in the way that they use the money 152 00:05:15,848 --> 00:05:18,618 that they're getting, funding things in different ways, 153 00:05:18,718 --> 00:05:20,353 you know, as you mentioned, different curriculum, 154 00:05:20,453 --> 00:05:21,921 hours, all of those kind of things, 155 00:05:22,021 --> 00:05:24,190 that's not a big appropriation difference, 156 00:05:24,290 --> 00:05:26,492 it's just a different way of managing school. 157 00:05:26,592 --> 00:05:27,960 So I think that, you know, 158 00:05:28,061 --> 00:05:29,128 I mean, I push back a little bit on the premise 159 00:05:29,228 --> 00:05:30,296 of your question, 160 00:05:30,396 --> 00:05:31,564 the answer to improving education 161 00:05:31,664 --> 00:05:32,565 is not always 162 00:05:32,665 --> 00:05:34,467 do we need more money? 163 00:05:34,567 --> 00:05:36,002 Or if we just spent more money, 164 00:05:36,102 --> 00:05:37,804 we would get better results. 165 00:05:37,904 --> 00:05:39,539 - I'll accept that. It's what can we do, 166 00:05:39,639 --> 00:05:41,140 and I think the Restart in these, 167 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,943 giving local schools, giving low performing schools 168 00:05:44,043 --> 00:05:45,178 as Senator Lee mentioned, 169 00:05:45,278 --> 00:05:48,915 more authority to do things that they need 170 00:05:49,015 --> 00:05:51,150 and putting the power into the hand of the principal 171 00:05:51,250 --> 00:05:53,319 to spend the money they're getting the way they need 172 00:05:53,419 --> 00:05:54,887 is where we need to start with this. 173 00:05:54,987 --> 00:05:56,155 - Well, I was just gonna jump in and say 174 00:05:56,255 --> 00:05:57,390 but spending less isn't the answer, 175 00:05:57,490 --> 00:05:59,292 and we're spending less per capita on students 176 00:05:59,392 --> 00:06:00,326 when you adjust for inflation than we were 177 00:06:00,426 --> 00:06:01,828 in 2008. 178 00:06:01,928 --> 00:06:03,096 So we can argue, maybe we don't need to spend a ton more, 179 00:06:03,196 --> 00:06:04,597 but we don't need to spend less. 180 00:06:04,697 --> 00:06:06,299 - Now let's talk about the subject of flexibility, Bob. 181 00:06:06,399 --> 00:06:09,469 Because that seems to be the big buzz word 182 00:06:09,569 --> 00:06:12,071 in education these days, is flexibility. 183 00:06:12,171 --> 00:06:14,374 This Restart program, as Howard says, 184 00:06:14,474 --> 00:06:17,076 it really is not new, it's just got a new name. 185 00:06:17,176 --> 00:06:20,012 It was actually part of the improvement project, 186 00:06:20,113 --> 00:06:22,849 which was initiated by our friend Jerry Hancock, 187 00:06:22,949 --> 00:06:26,119 who was one of the litigants in the Leandro lawsuit. 188 00:06:26,219 --> 00:06:28,888 As well as ten superintendents across the state, 189 00:06:28,988 --> 00:06:29,956 what they did is they said, 190 00:06:30,056 --> 00:06:32,258 "Okay, what are the obstacles 191 00:06:32,358 --> 00:06:34,193 "in the way of these low performing schools? 192 00:06:34,293 --> 00:06:35,528 "And what can we do 193 00:06:35,628 --> 00:06:38,297 "to try to overcome these obstacles?" 194 00:06:38,398 --> 00:06:39,732 Flexibility was, 195 00:06:39,832 --> 00:06:41,768 was a large part of what they came up to. 196 00:06:41,868 --> 00:06:44,470 From your standpoint, how important is flexibility? 197 00:06:44,570 --> 00:06:47,039 - Well, I think flexibility is 198 00:06:47,140 --> 00:06:48,241 a critical component. 199 00:06:48,341 --> 00:06:51,043 The whole concept behind charter schools 200 00:06:51,144 --> 00:06:52,545 was to experiment with ways 201 00:06:52,645 --> 00:06:54,947 to better educate our kids, 202 00:06:55,047 --> 00:06:57,116 but then move those things 203 00:06:57,216 --> 00:07:01,454 that did succeed into the broader public school system. 204 00:07:01,554 --> 00:07:02,655 But I have to say, 205 00:07:02,755 --> 00:07:04,457 take a little bit of an exception with Becki 206 00:07:04,557 --> 00:07:05,992 on the resources, 207 00:07:06,092 --> 00:07:08,327 many of these schools are in low wealth communities 208 00:07:08,428 --> 00:07:09,929 and counties, and they need... 209 00:07:10,029 --> 00:07:11,164 - [Tom] A large number of 'em. 210 00:07:11,264 --> 00:07:13,466 - Yes, and they need, they need resources 211 00:07:13,566 --> 00:07:16,269 to attract really good teachers. 212 00:07:16,369 --> 00:07:17,203 We gotta figure out 213 00:07:17,303 --> 00:07:19,172 why they're low performing. 214 00:07:19,272 --> 00:07:20,807 - Let's talk about some of that flexibility. 215 00:07:20,907 --> 00:07:22,241 Howard, you were getting ready to say something, 216 00:07:22,341 --> 00:07:23,342 I'll let you say it in just a second. 217 00:07:23,443 --> 00:07:24,777 But part of it is 218 00:07:24,877 --> 00:07:27,280 giving these schools, these individual schools 219 00:07:27,380 --> 00:07:29,382 more flexibility as far as hiring teachers. 220 00:07:29,482 --> 00:07:32,084 The teachers don't have to be certified 221 00:07:32,185 --> 00:07:33,586 in the subject. 222 00:07:33,686 --> 00:07:36,489 How big a problem is this licensure problem 223 00:07:36,589 --> 00:07:37,990 so far as recruiting teachers? 224 00:07:38,090 --> 00:07:39,258 - Well, it's... 225 00:07:39,358 --> 00:07:40,493 - [Tom] Particularly, lateral entrance. 226 00:07:40,593 --> 00:07:42,595 - Yeah, it's really not that big of a 227 00:07:42,695 --> 00:07:44,730 impediment on being able to succeed 228 00:07:44,831 --> 00:07:46,332 in educating kids. 229 00:07:46,432 --> 00:07:48,768 That's the difference between the charter school 230 00:07:48,868 --> 00:07:50,703 and the so called Restart school, 231 00:07:50,803 --> 00:07:53,773 is that the Restarts must have certified teachers, 232 00:07:53,873 --> 00:07:56,442 and the charters, of course, do not have to. 233 00:07:56,542 --> 00:07:57,944 But let me be very clear, 234 00:07:58,044 --> 00:08:00,313 there are a lot of leaders out here in our schools 235 00:08:00,413 --> 00:08:01,647 that don't even use 236 00:08:01,747 --> 00:08:04,417 the level of flexibility that they already have. 237 00:08:04,517 --> 00:08:06,619 And, of course, some of them are running up against 238 00:08:06,719 --> 00:08:08,221 the stone wall when they go out and try to 239 00:08:08,321 --> 00:08:10,189 hire teachers, and they, 240 00:08:10,289 --> 00:08:11,924 like in one school I work with, 241 00:08:12,024 --> 00:08:14,927 they brought in five high-level math teachers 242 00:08:15,027 --> 00:08:16,629 in the first, in the school year, 243 00:08:16,729 --> 00:08:18,664 and before three months were gone, 244 00:08:18,764 --> 00:08:20,633 all five of those teachers had left. 245 00:08:20,733 --> 00:08:21,834 - [Tom] Why? 246 00:08:21,934 --> 00:08:23,836 - Because they, their circumstances, 247 00:08:23,936 --> 00:08:25,104 the environment, 248 00:08:25,204 --> 00:08:27,707 and they just feel like they're working against 249 00:08:27,807 --> 00:08:30,743 a uphill battle trying to educate kids 250 00:08:30,843 --> 00:08:31,677 that are really kinda slow. 251 00:08:31,777 --> 00:08:33,045 I wish I were educational czar 252 00:08:33,145 --> 00:08:34,814 because the first thing I'd... 253 00:08:34,914 --> 00:08:36,182 - I wish you were too, as a matter of fact. 254 00:08:36,282 --> 00:08:37,016 - [Harold] The first thing I'd do 255 00:08:37,116 --> 00:08:37,884 is eliminate greed. 256 00:08:37,984 --> 00:08:38,951 - We can vote, yeah. 257 00:08:39,051 --> 00:08:39,886 - But at any rate. 258 00:08:39,986 --> 00:08:41,654 - Becki, one of the other topics 259 00:08:41,754 --> 00:08:43,289 they're talking about in this flexibility 260 00:08:43,389 --> 00:08:45,124 is the ability to be able to control 261 00:08:45,224 --> 00:08:46,559 the school calendar better, 262 00:08:46,659 --> 00:08:48,661 particularly, as it relates to the beginning 263 00:08:48,761 --> 00:08:50,863 of the school year, the end of the school year. 264 00:08:50,963 --> 00:08:54,300 Craig Horn, in the North Carolina House of Representatives, 265 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,537 every year introduces a legislation 266 00:08:57,637 --> 00:09:00,139 to be able to give schools more flexibility. 267 00:09:00,239 --> 00:09:02,441 It always gets beaten by 268 00:09:02,542 --> 00:09:05,244 the Leisure and Hospitality Industry, 269 00:09:05,344 --> 00:09:08,214 why shouldn't schools have more flexibility? 270 00:09:08,314 --> 00:09:09,682 - I think they should. 271 00:09:09,782 --> 00:09:11,117 And it's not just starting date and ending date, 272 00:09:11,217 --> 00:09:13,185 but what about flexibility for the school week? 273 00:09:13,286 --> 00:09:15,555 One of these Restart schools, at least one of 'em 274 00:09:15,655 --> 00:09:17,089 have changed the school week 275 00:09:17,189 --> 00:09:20,059 where there are extended hours Monday through Thursday, 276 00:09:20,159 --> 00:09:22,595 Friday is a shorter day for the students, 277 00:09:22,695 --> 00:09:25,064 gives teachers a built-in planning day 278 00:09:25,164 --> 00:09:27,233 to regroup, meet within themselves, 279 00:09:27,333 --> 00:09:29,602 mentor, get geared up for the next week. 280 00:09:29,702 --> 00:09:30,970 So if that works better for your school, 281 00:09:31,070 --> 00:09:33,039 why not have that flexibility? 282 00:09:33,139 --> 00:09:34,507 You know, we talk about the school calendar, 283 00:09:34,607 --> 00:09:35,908 we think of start and end dates, 284 00:09:36,008 --> 00:09:37,276 but there's a lot, 285 00:09:37,376 --> 00:09:38,644 think of all the flexibility that you could do 286 00:09:38,744 --> 00:09:39,879 within your school day. 287 00:09:39,979 --> 00:09:41,113 - Well the only problem with that 288 00:09:41,213 --> 00:09:41,914 is if you've got three children and they're in 289 00:09:42,014 --> 00:09:43,416 two different schools, 290 00:09:43,516 --> 00:09:44,917 and one of 'em starts the school day at seven a.m. 291 00:09:45,017 --> 00:09:46,419 and the next one starts at nine, 292 00:09:46,519 --> 00:09:49,021 and they don't work, they don't have class on Friday. 293 00:09:49,121 --> 00:09:50,323 I mean, it does get to be complicated. 294 00:09:50,423 --> 00:09:51,791 - It gets complicated, 295 00:09:51,891 --> 00:09:53,192 but Tom, you know, I think we need to quit trying 296 00:09:53,292 --> 00:09:56,662 to design a school system that is convenient 297 00:09:56,762 --> 00:09:59,665 and one that really works for outcomes of kids 298 00:09:59,765 --> 00:10:01,067 and focus on that. 299 00:10:01,167 --> 00:10:04,604 - So, Bob, this Restart program, 300 00:10:04,704 --> 00:10:07,373 we got 104 schools that are in it right now, 301 00:10:07,473 --> 00:10:09,408 they are 14 more awaiting approval 302 00:10:09,508 --> 00:10:11,277 from the State Board of Education, 303 00:10:11,377 --> 00:10:14,547 this looks like it's getting ready to be, 304 00:10:14,647 --> 00:10:18,084 a sort of a snowball down the hill, avalanche 305 00:10:18,184 --> 00:10:19,485 that we're forming here, 306 00:10:19,585 --> 00:10:22,021 and it's still a very early thing. 307 00:10:22,121 --> 00:10:23,456 Very quickly, I wanna go around 308 00:10:23,556 --> 00:10:24,657 and ask everybody, 309 00:10:24,757 --> 00:10:26,058 what's it gonna take for us to know 310 00:10:26,158 --> 00:10:27,727 whether it's working or not? 311 00:10:27,827 --> 00:10:29,428 - Well, we're gonna, 312 00:10:29,528 --> 00:10:31,530 whether the kids coming out of these schools 313 00:10:31,631 --> 00:10:33,165 perform adequately on tests. 314 00:10:33,265 --> 00:10:35,267 - That's gonna take several years, doesn't it? 315 00:10:35,368 --> 00:10:36,569 - Sure. 316 00:10:36,669 --> 00:10:39,672 I mean, this is, this is moving the Titanic 317 00:10:39,772 --> 00:10:43,542 in incremental ways. 318 00:10:43,643 --> 00:10:44,977 Not in some quick turnaround. 319 00:10:45,077 --> 00:10:46,212 - [Tom] Quickly, Becki, what do you think? 320 00:10:46,312 --> 00:10:47,480 - You know, to this point, you know 321 00:10:47,580 --> 00:10:49,115 any of those changes, we need to keep the data, 322 00:10:49,215 --> 00:10:49,949 it's too early. 323 00:10:50,049 --> 00:10:51,484 This is relatively new. 324 00:10:51,584 --> 00:10:53,185 This is too early to have the data to know really, 325 00:10:53,285 --> 00:10:54,920 to make those measurements and make clear. 326 00:10:55,021 --> 00:10:56,689 But I think it's significant that this started 327 00:10:56,789 --> 00:10:57,657 with five schools, 328 00:10:57,757 --> 00:10:59,859 as you mentioned, it's now 104. 329 00:10:59,959 --> 00:11:01,761 We have 14 that are in the cue, 330 00:11:01,861 --> 00:11:03,896 so school administrators, principals, 331 00:11:03,996 --> 00:11:04,897 people who are doing this, 332 00:11:04,997 --> 00:11:05,898 I think that's a sign, 333 00:11:05,998 --> 00:11:07,266 they want the flexibility. 334 00:11:07,366 --> 00:11:08,768 - Chris? 335 00:11:08,868 --> 00:11:09,802 - Well, we're gonna know in the test scores, again, 336 00:11:09,902 --> 00:11:11,037 but it's gonna take a long time. 337 00:11:11,137 --> 00:11:12,004 I wanna say quickly, one of the things 338 00:11:12,104 --> 00:11:13,239 I think we need to shift 339 00:11:13,339 --> 00:11:14,440 is start talking about how to fix, 340 00:11:14,540 --> 00:11:15,875 help these schools, and start thinking about 341 00:11:15,975 --> 00:11:17,343 how to help these students. 342 00:11:17,443 --> 00:11:18,778 If you talk to people who run community schools, 343 00:11:18,878 --> 00:11:20,780 they'll tell you heartbreaking stories of kids 344 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:21,781 who have never seen a dentist 345 00:11:21,881 --> 00:11:23,215 and people think they're stupid. 346 00:11:23,315 --> 00:11:25,051 Or people who's, kids who's glasses don't work... 347 00:11:25,151 --> 00:11:26,318 - They're singing your song, aren't they, Howard? 348 00:11:26,419 --> 00:11:27,653 - But I mean, that's part of what I wish 349 00:11:27,753 --> 00:11:29,522 we could give these schools flexibility 350 00:11:29,622 --> 00:11:32,224 and resources to make sure every kid in that class 351 00:11:32,324 --> 00:11:33,959 somehow, somebody's helping him or her 352 00:11:34,060 --> 00:11:35,294 find appropriate care. 353 00:11:35,394 --> 00:11:36,696 - Howard, what's your response? 354 00:11:36,796 --> 00:11:39,598 - I would measure by one, one standard only, 355 00:11:39,699 --> 00:11:42,068 and that is keeping teachers in the classroom 356 00:11:42,168 --> 00:11:43,803 for an extended period of years, 357 00:11:43,903 --> 00:11:46,238 and I think, if you can do that, 358 00:11:46,338 --> 00:11:49,341 you can see obvious and very quick results coming 359 00:11:49,442 --> 00:11:51,377 as I have seen in one school in Durham, 360 00:11:51,477 --> 00:11:52,878 where I had a great principal, 361 00:11:52,978 --> 00:11:54,580 and he was able to cut down on teacher turnover, 362 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:55,781 and the test scores of these kids 363 00:11:55,881 --> 00:11:57,049 - But you've put your finger 364 00:11:57,149 --> 00:11:58,117 on something here. - Have gone up. 365 00:11:58,217 --> 00:11:59,752 - David Brooks wrote a column, 366 00:11:59,852 --> 00:12:01,287 I don't know whether you read it a couple weeks ago 367 00:12:01,387 --> 00:12:03,989 or not, but he was talking about the keys to success 368 00:12:04,090 --> 00:12:05,357 in schools, and he mentioned 369 00:12:05,458 --> 00:12:07,560 that the principals were really the primary key 370 00:12:07,660 --> 00:12:09,028 to success. 371 00:12:09,128 --> 00:12:11,764 And he said, for a principal to be really effective, 372 00:12:11,864 --> 00:12:15,334 they've got to have four to seven years in that school. 373 00:12:15,434 --> 00:12:18,270 The problem is the average principal leaves 374 00:12:18,370 --> 00:12:19,872 after about three years because of what 375 00:12:19,972 --> 00:12:21,307 they have to put up with. 376 00:12:21,407 --> 00:12:23,075 - And keep the local school board out of his hair. 377 00:12:23,175 --> 00:12:24,076 - [Tom] Yeah. 378 00:12:24,176 --> 00:12:25,478 - Because that to me 379 00:12:25,578 --> 00:12:27,146 is one of the great impediments of our schools. 380 00:12:27,246 --> 00:12:28,514 - And the office. 381 00:12:28,614 --> 00:12:29,949 - And giving more flexibility to those principals 382 00:12:30,049 --> 00:12:31,083 may very well be the key 383 00:12:31,183 --> 00:12:32,318 to keeping them in the schools. 384 00:12:32,418 --> 00:12:33,319 - Final question in this subject. 385 00:12:33,419 --> 00:12:35,187 This business of flexibility. 386 00:12:35,287 --> 00:12:37,757 If we think it is such a good idea, 387 00:12:37,857 --> 00:12:39,058 and it seems to be one 388 00:12:39,158 --> 00:12:40,626 that is getting a lot of buzz. 389 00:12:40,726 --> 00:12:42,661 If we think it's such a good idea, 390 00:12:42,762 --> 00:12:45,397 why not give every school in North Carolina 391 00:12:45,498 --> 00:12:48,467 the same flexibility we give our charter schools, Howard? 392 00:12:48,567 --> 00:12:49,435 - Yeah, yeah. 393 00:12:49,535 --> 00:12:50,402 I've always preached that song, 394 00:12:50,503 --> 00:12:52,505 and I'm singing that song, 395 00:12:52,605 --> 00:12:53,806 and I certainly believe 396 00:12:53,906 --> 00:12:55,407 that that would be a major step forward, 397 00:12:55,508 --> 00:12:57,510 and it would commit to the fact 398 00:12:57,610 --> 00:12:59,545 that we are really serious about wanting to... 399 00:12:59,645 --> 00:13:01,547 - We could probably save some money 400 00:13:01,647 --> 00:13:03,883 in the Department of Public Instruction too, 401 00:13:03,983 --> 00:13:05,117 couldn't we? 402 00:13:05,217 --> 00:13:06,318 - Well, and another thing I would do, 403 00:13:06,418 --> 00:13:07,553 and this is probably gonna upset some people, 404 00:13:07,653 --> 00:13:09,355 but I would take a real close look 405 00:13:09,455 --> 00:13:11,791 at whether or not busing isn't impacting 406 00:13:11,891 --> 00:13:14,193 the educational experiences of many of our children. 407 00:13:14,293 --> 00:13:15,795 - And this is the one thing, by the way, 408 00:13:15,895 --> 00:13:18,664 that these Restart school have to provide 409 00:13:18,764 --> 00:13:19,932 is busing. 410 00:13:20,032 --> 00:13:20,766 - Absolutely. 411 00:13:20,866 --> 00:13:21,801 - What do you think? 412 00:13:21,901 --> 00:13:23,068 Why not give 'em all flexibility? 413 00:13:23,169 --> 00:13:23,903 - Well I think, you know, flexibility. 414 00:13:24,003 --> 00:13:25,104 - Don't we trust 'em? 415 00:13:25,204 --> 00:13:26,338 - Well, I think we should trust 'em more, 416 00:13:26,438 --> 00:13:28,207 but I also think flexibility sometimes 417 00:13:28,307 --> 00:13:29,408 replaces the investment. 418 00:13:29,508 --> 00:13:30,442 I think we need both. 419 00:13:30,543 --> 00:13:31,677 You can't say here's flex- 420 00:13:31,777 --> 00:13:32,945 you don't need anymore resources for these kids 421 00:13:33,045 --> 00:13:34,480 who are struggling, just a lot more flexibility. 422 00:13:34,580 --> 00:13:35,748 No, you need both. 423 00:13:35,848 --> 00:13:37,049 You need to figure out a way to reach these kids 424 00:13:37,149 --> 00:13:38,184 and help them and their families. 425 00:13:38,284 --> 00:13:39,018 - Becki, why not give it all? 426 00:13:39,118 --> 00:13:40,052 - I think we should. 427 00:13:40,152 --> 00:13:41,287 And I think we should 428 00:13:41,387 --> 00:13:44,590 treat principals as CEOs of these schools. 429 00:13:44,690 --> 00:13:46,392 And to Chris's point, you know 430 00:13:46,492 --> 00:13:49,094 the focus needs to be on the outcomes of the kids 431 00:13:49,195 --> 00:13:52,498 in the classroom managed by really good teachers. 432 00:13:52,598 --> 00:13:54,200 - Bob, it looks like we can fix the school system. 433 00:13:54,300 --> 00:13:55,201 - Yeah, absolutely. 434 00:13:55,301 --> 00:13:56,368 [laughs] 435 00:13:56,468 --> 00:13:57,870 Creativity 436 00:13:57,970 --> 00:14:00,840 comes out of flexibility. 437 00:14:00,940 --> 00:14:03,776 And creativity is how you solve these kinds 438 00:14:03,876 --> 00:14:05,144 of problems. 439 00:14:05,244 --> 00:14:05,744 - And it may be different in each school. 440 00:14:05,845 --> 00:14:06,879 - True. 441 00:14:06,979 --> 00:14:08,314 - Talking about education, 442 00:14:08,414 --> 00:14:10,482 UNC President Margaret Spellings recently observed 443 00:14:10,583 --> 00:14:12,751 her two year anniversary of leadership 444 00:14:12,852 --> 00:14:14,086 at our university system. 445 00:14:14,186 --> 00:14:17,022 She started with controversy over her hiring 446 00:14:17,122 --> 00:14:18,791 and had to deal with a sports scandal, 447 00:14:18,891 --> 00:14:22,361 a legislature not pleased with the system's progress, 448 00:14:22,461 --> 00:14:24,730 and most recently, with a maverick board 449 00:14:24,830 --> 00:14:26,465 that is interested in getting involved 450 00:14:26,565 --> 00:14:29,568 in the running of the system and making great changes. 451 00:14:29,668 --> 00:14:32,338 Her own evaluation of her first two years, 452 00:14:32,438 --> 00:14:34,306 it's that she's pleased but not satisfied 453 00:14:34,406 --> 00:14:35,574 with what she's accomplished. 454 00:14:35,674 --> 00:14:37,576 But the UNC Board of Governors gave her a 455 00:14:37,676 --> 00:14:39,511 $95,000 bonus. 456 00:14:39,612 --> 00:14:42,214 Even that was met with 457 00:14:42,314 --> 00:14:46,518 opposition inside the board that strongly disagreed with it. 458 00:14:46,619 --> 00:14:49,688 Bob Orr, board member Tom Fetzer 459 00:14:49,788 --> 00:14:53,492 was one of those who opposed publicly this bonus. 460 00:14:53,592 --> 00:14:55,828 Saying Spellings makes three quarters of 461 00:14:55,928 --> 00:14:57,897 $775,000 a year, 462 00:14:57,997 --> 00:15:01,934 taxpayers shouldn't have to add another hundred grand, 463 00:15:02,034 --> 00:15:03,135 and he says, 464 00:15:03,235 --> 00:15:05,304 "How can the system talk about reducing cost 465 00:15:05,404 --> 00:15:09,074 "in education when it gives administrators large bonuses?" 466 00:15:09,174 --> 00:15:10,976 Your take on this. 467 00:15:11,076 --> 00:15:14,847 - Well, it's a big job that Margaret Spellings has. 468 00:15:14,947 --> 00:15:18,417 She's by all accounts, done an exceptional job 469 00:15:18,517 --> 00:15:19,618 in her first two years. 470 00:15:19,718 --> 00:15:21,687 And, I agree, it's a lotta money. 471 00:15:21,787 --> 00:15:23,355 But when you look around the state 472 00:15:23,455 --> 00:15:25,858 at Tom Fetzer's alma mater Wake Forest, 473 00:15:25,958 --> 00:15:29,528 the president of Wake Forest makes four million dollars 474 00:15:29,628 --> 00:15:30,863 a year. 475 00:15:30,963 --> 00:15:33,299 You go over to the athletic side, 476 00:15:33,399 --> 00:15:35,935 we have basketball and football coaches 477 00:15:36,035 --> 00:15:37,770 making two million dollars a year. 478 00:15:37,870 --> 00:15:39,672 So, to me, 479 00:15:39,772 --> 00:15:43,409 putting it in proportion what she's getting paid 480 00:15:43,509 --> 00:15:48,113 for managing a 17 member system 481 00:15:48,213 --> 00:15:52,151 with a very diverse and different group of schools. 482 00:15:52,251 --> 00:15:54,553 - 17 chancellors, 17 boards, 483 00:15:54,653 --> 00:15:56,822 and a board of governor, and the legislature. 484 00:15:56,922 --> 00:15:57,856 - [Bob] And the legislature. 485 00:15:57,957 --> 00:15:58,857 [laughs] 486 00:15:58,958 --> 00:16:00,125 Yeah, it's a big job. 487 00:16:00,225 --> 00:16:01,360 - You know, I don't know that I'd do it 488 00:16:01,460 --> 00:16:02,361 for that amount of money. 489 00:16:02,461 --> 00:16:03,629 Howard, you take on this thing. 490 00:16:03,729 --> 00:16:04,697 - Well, I tell ya, 491 00:16:04,797 --> 00:16:07,132 $775,000 is a lotta money, 492 00:16:07,232 --> 00:16:09,969 and that's probably among the highest paid 493 00:16:10,069 --> 00:16:13,005 public university leaders in the country. 494 00:16:13,105 --> 00:16:14,974 If not, it's certainly in the state. 495 00:16:15,074 --> 00:16:18,510 I think Margaret has done a fine job 496 00:16:18,610 --> 00:16:21,213 leading the university during her first two years, 497 00:16:21,313 --> 00:16:25,451 but I don't think giving a bonus at this time 498 00:16:25,551 --> 00:16:28,120 is in the best interest of our education system. 499 00:16:28,220 --> 00:16:31,590 Number one, it sends a terrible message down the line 500 00:16:31,690 --> 00:16:33,959 to faculty members, many of whom are leaving 501 00:16:34,059 --> 00:16:35,627 because they feel they're underpaid, 502 00:16:35,728 --> 00:16:37,629 and they're going to private institutions. 503 00:16:37,730 --> 00:16:40,065 We cannot compare private institutions 504 00:16:40,165 --> 00:16:42,868 with public institutions in terms of the money they pay 505 00:16:42,968 --> 00:16:44,036 when we look at the tuition. 506 00:16:44,136 --> 00:16:45,537 - Chris, should we have, 507 00:16:45,637 --> 00:16:47,473 should public employees have performance bonuses? 508 00:16:47,573 --> 00:16:49,174 - Well I think it should be some part 509 00:16:49,274 --> 00:16:51,210 of evaluation. 510 00:16:51,310 --> 00:16:52,444 My issue with this is 511 00:16:52,544 --> 00:16:55,514 I think she, $775,000 is a lot of money, 512 00:16:55,614 --> 00:16:57,349 but I think you could argue, 513 00:16:57,449 --> 00:16:59,151 and Bob I thought did effectively, 514 00:16:59,251 --> 00:17:00,519 that she might deserve that much money. 515 00:17:00,619 --> 00:17:01,754 The bonus is the question. 516 00:17:01,854 --> 00:17:04,156 I think in giving, when we're losing faculty 517 00:17:04,256 --> 00:17:05,724 as Howard mentioned, I don't think a lotta people 518 00:17:05,824 --> 00:17:08,060 in North Carolina are having a $95,000 a year bonus, 519 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:09,261 but I will say this, 520 00:17:09,361 --> 00:17:10,562 she's having to put up with a board 521 00:17:10,662 --> 00:17:12,297 and a legislative leadership, 522 00:17:12,398 --> 00:17:13,766 that Senate leadership, it's no secret, 523 00:17:13,866 --> 00:17:15,367 did not want her to get the job in the first place, 524 00:17:15,467 --> 00:17:17,236 and some of the appointees on the board, 525 00:17:17,336 --> 00:17:18,470 still don't want her in that job. 526 00:17:18,570 --> 00:17:20,439 - She has opposition from the legislature, 527 00:17:20,539 --> 00:17:21,940 she has opposition from her own board, 528 00:17:22,041 --> 00:17:24,376 or some of the board. 529 00:17:24,476 --> 00:17:25,577 - [Chris] Some of the members of the board. 530 00:17:25,677 --> 00:17:26,645 - And she had the faculty, and students. 531 00:17:26,745 --> 00:17:28,113 - It's worth remembering many members 532 00:17:28,213 --> 00:17:30,582 of the search committee that picked her as incumbents 533 00:17:30,682 --> 00:17:32,184 ran for re-election and were not picked 534 00:17:32,284 --> 00:17:33,786 by the legislative leaders because they were mad 535 00:17:33,886 --> 00:17:34,686 that she was hired in the first place. 536 00:17:34,787 --> 00:17:36,121 - Let's get back to that 537 00:17:36,221 --> 00:17:38,891 sort of rogue board that she's dealing with right now. 538 00:17:38,991 --> 00:17:40,959 I don't think we've ever, in all the years 539 00:17:41,060 --> 00:17:42,194 that we've seen this, 540 00:17:42,294 --> 00:17:44,063 and I remember Bill Friday telling us 541 00:17:44,163 --> 00:17:47,733 when that 32 member board was originally constituted 542 00:17:47,833 --> 00:17:50,069 he didn't like it and for some of these same reasons. 543 00:17:50,169 --> 00:17:52,938 But back to this Board of Governors, 544 00:17:53,038 --> 00:17:55,741 they seem to be much more proactive, Becki, 545 00:17:55,841 --> 00:17:57,176 than what we've seen in the past. 546 00:17:57,276 --> 00:17:59,912 In fact, it looks like they wanna meddle in 547 00:18:00,012 --> 00:18:02,748 the operations of the university instead of setting policy. 548 00:18:02,848 --> 00:18:04,149 Is that an accurate read? 549 00:18:04,249 --> 00:18:06,518 - I think that's probably an accurate read, 550 00:18:06,618 --> 00:18:08,887 but this is a different board, this is a different time. 551 00:18:08,987 --> 00:18:11,757 This board moved forward with the hiring 552 00:18:11,857 --> 00:18:12,991 of Margaret Spellings, 553 00:18:13,092 --> 00:18:15,260 with some changes within the university system 554 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:16,662 that they were gonna ask questions. 555 00:18:16,762 --> 00:18:18,030 I think there's been a history 556 00:18:18,130 --> 00:18:19,798 on the Board of Governors of 557 00:18:19,898 --> 00:18:22,101 they just kind of approved anything 558 00:18:22,201 --> 00:18:23,235 that was put before them, 559 00:18:23,335 --> 00:18:24,770 when you have different leadership, 560 00:18:24,870 --> 00:18:27,639 you mentioned Bill Friday, not a lot of controversy. 561 00:18:27,739 --> 00:18:29,875 This is a different board, it's a different time. 562 00:18:29,975 --> 00:18:31,443 They're challenging, they're disruptive, 563 00:18:31,543 --> 00:18:32,444 they're asking questions. 564 00:18:32,544 --> 00:18:35,481 It is different, you're right. 565 00:18:35,581 --> 00:18:37,783 I don't think we know now whether it's better or worse. 566 00:18:37,883 --> 00:18:39,384 I think Margaret Spellings is doing 567 00:18:39,485 --> 00:18:40,385 a outstanding job of... 568 00:18:40,486 --> 00:18:41,687 - Well she's got three more years 569 00:18:41,787 --> 00:18:42,921 left on this contract. 570 00:18:43,021 --> 00:18:45,524 And frankly, with all that she's dealing with. 571 00:18:45,624 --> 00:18:46,758 - [Becki] It's hard to manage. 572 00:18:46,859 --> 00:18:47,960 - I'm just wondering is she gonna stay 573 00:18:48,060 --> 00:18:49,194 the whole three years? 574 00:18:49,294 --> 00:18:50,963 Or do you think you might 575 00:18:51,063 --> 00:18:52,931 just throw up her hands and say, 576 00:18:53,031 --> 00:18:54,166 "It ain't worth it." 577 00:18:54,266 --> 00:18:55,601 - I don't think she's that kind of leader. 578 00:18:55,701 --> 00:18:56,869 I think that, you know, 579 00:18:56,969 --> 00:18:58,403 she's one that has committed to his, 580 00:18:58,504 --> 00:18:59,838 she's had a good... 581 00:18:59,938 --> 00:19:01,173 - Well, she was George Bush's Secretary of Education. 582 00:19:01,273 --> 00:19:02,674 - This is a tough lady. 583 00:19:02,774 --> 00:19:04,343 I don't think she's gonna throw her hands up. 584 00:19:04,443 --> 00:19:05,544 - It is not a secret in Chapel Hill 585 00:19:05,644 --> 00:19:06,778 however, that she's very frustrated. 586 00:19:06,879 --> 00:19:08,514 Not at that the board is all republicans, 587 00:19:08,614 --> 00:19:10,149 she's a republican and then the past board 588 00:19:10,249 --> 00:19:11,316 that put her on there. 589 00:19:11,416 --> 00:19:12,251 But the new members of the board, 590 00:19:12,351 --> 00:19:13,785 Fetzer and Rucho and these guys 591 00:19:13,886 --> 00:19:15,187 have been openly critical of her, 592 00:19:15,287 --> 00:19:16,588 have been trying to take away her authority 593 00:19:16,688 --> 00:19:17,523 inside the system. 594 00:19:17,623 --> 00:19:18,824 It's not a secret in Chapel Hill 595 00:19:18,924 --> 00:19:20,058 that she's very frustrated. 596 00:19:20,159 --> 00:19:21,493 - And Bob, that is, that is something 597 00:19:21,593 --> 00:19:22,961 that is new from that standpoint. 598 00:19:23,061 --> 00:19:24,863 Typically, if there have been squabbles 599 00:19:24,963 --> 00:19:26,165 inside the Board of Governors, 600 00:19:26,265 --> 00:19:27,432 we hadn't heard much about it. 601 00:19:27,533 --> 00:19:28,967 They're going public. - It's been very public. 602 00:19:29,067 --> 00:19:31,970 - Yeah, this is much more political oriented board, 603 00:19:32,070 --> 00:19:33,639 certainly in the newest members, 604 00:19:33,739 --> 00:19:35,674 but if anybody can handle it, 605 00:19:35,774 --> 00:19:37,609 Margaret Spellings can. 606 00:19:37,709 --> 00:19:39,611 And I think she's a great advocate 607 00:19:39,711 --> 00:19:41,079 for each of those campuses, 608 00:19:41,180 --> 00:19:44,449 and for those faculty members and staff people. 609 00:19:45,551 --> 00:19:48,487 The optics of the bonus may be a problem. 610 00:19:48,587 --> 00:19:51,590 But, if not her, who would we have? 611 00:19:51,690 --> 00:19:53,225 - And I think you have to go back to, you know, 612 00:19:53,325 --> 00:19:54,493 what kind of job is she doing? 613 00:19:54,593 --> 00:19:56,161 What does our university system look like? 614 00:19:56,261 --> 00:19:57,462 Graduation rates are up, 615 00:19:57,563 --> 00:19:58,730 tuition is down, 616 00:19:58,830 --> 00:20:00,632 college education is more available 617 00:20:00,732 --> 00:20:02,701 to more North Carolinians than it ever has been. 618 00:20:02,801 --> 00:20:04,469 - Need to move on, if you don't mind. 619 00:20:04,570 --> 00:20:07,573 2017 was the deadliest year in our 620 00:20:07,673 --> 00:20:08,840 North Carolina prison system. 621 00:20:08,941 --> 00:20:10,809 Both for prisoners as well as guards. 622 00:20:10,909 --> 00:20:14,913 We had roughly 37,000 inmates in our prisons, 623 00:20:15,013 --> 00:20:17,282 and we're told about 5,000 are behind bars 624 00:20:17,382 --> 00:20:19,351 23 or 24 hours a day. 625 00:20:19,451 --> 00:20:23,188 More than one in five reportedly has mental illness. 626 00:20:23,288 --> 00:20:26,058 And we've got staff shortages of 25% 627 00:20:26,158 --> 00:20:27,960 or even higher in some of our prisons. 628 00:20:28,060 --> 00:20:31,096 More leaving the job than are being recruited to work 629 00:20:31,196 --> 00:20:35,334 because they won't accept the $32,000 a year salary. 630 00:20:35,434 --> 00:20:36,935 Because of risk. 631 00:20:37,035 --> 00:20:39,571 And morale is at an all time low. 632 00:20:39,671 --> 00:20:41,807 Lawmakers are screaming to get something done. 633 00:20:41,907 --> 00:20:44,109 Chris Fitzsimon, Secretary of Public Safety 634 00:20:44,209 --> 00:20:46,612 Erik Hooks stated the obvious in saying that 635 00:20:46,712 --> 00:20:48,580 our prisons are dangerous places 636 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:49,982 filled with dangerous people, 637 00:20:50,082 --> 00:20:52,351 but we've got a prison crisis right now 638 00:20:52,451 --> 00:20:53,552 in North Carolina. 639 00:20:53,652 --> 00:20:55,320 Where do you get started trying to fix it? 640 00:20:55,420 --> 00:20:56,588 - Well this would be, 641 00:20:56,688 --> 00:20:58,423 I would hope, and we've done this in our past 642 00:20:58,523 --> 00:20:59,691 in North Carolina, 643 00:20:59,791 --> 00:21:01,026 that we would be able to convene some sort of, 644 00:21:01,126 --> 00:21:03,061 in the long-term, or medium-term 645 00:21:03,161 --> 00:21:04,396 some sort of bipartisan commission 646 00:21:04,496 --> 00:21:06,398 to really look at this, look at what other states do, 647 00:21:06,498 --> 00:21:07,332 come up with a recommendation. 648 00:21:07,432 --> 00:21:08,300 Just very complicated. 649 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:09,468 - The legislature has one. 650 00:21:09,568 --> 00:21:10,936 - Well, I know. 651 00:21:11,036 --> 00:21:12,070 But we'll see how bipartisan they will be in the end. 652 00:21:12,170 --> 00:21:12,904 And I, what I'd like, 653 00:21:13,005 --> 00:21:14,406 there's several things. 654 00:21:14,506 --> 00:21:15,641 First of all, we still have a lot of nonviolent people 655 00:21:15,741 --> 00:21:17,075 who shouldn't be there in the first place. 656 00:21:17,175 --> 00:21:19,011 And we've made some progress in North Carolina 657 00:21:19,111 --> 00:21:19,845 in doing that. 658 00:21:19,945 --> 00:21:21,113 Secondly, you mentioned, 659 00:21:21,213 --> 00:21:22,514 think about doing that job for $32,000 a year 660 00:21:22,614 --> 00:21:24,349 and why does it only pay $32,000 a year? 661 00:21:24,449 --> 00:21:26,918 You should be doubled that just to start in those jobs. 662 00:21:27,019 --> 00:21:29,254 And thirdly, we have to figure out a way 663 00:21:29,354 --> 00:21:30,956 to keep these places safe 664 00:21:31,056 --> 00:21:32,324 and mental illness is a big issue 665 00:21:32,424 --> 00:21:33,525 you also raised. 666 00:21:33,625 --> 00:21:34,593 We're still struggling in North Carolina 667 00:21:34,693 --> 00:21:36,128 to deal with the prison system, 668 00:21:36,228 --> 00:21:38,730 is our largest mental health facility. 669 00:21:38,830 --> 00:21:40,265 Which, a lot of the people shouldn't be there 670 00:21:40,365 --> 00:21:41,533 in the first place. 671 00:21:41,633 --> 00:21:42,834 - But it shouldn't be from that standpoint. 672 00:21:42,934 --> 00:21:43,802 - [Chris] That's exactly right, that's my point. 673 00:21:43,902 --> 00:21:45,070 - Secretary Hooks, Bob, says 674 00:21:45,170 --> 00:21:45,904 that what you've got in our prisons 675 00:21:46,004 --> 00:21:47,239 in many instances today, 676 00:21:47,339 --> 00:21:48,907 is you've got a bunch of mean people 677 00:21:49,007 --> 00:21:51,443 mixed up with sick people. 678 00:21:51,543 --> 00:21:53,278 And no wonder we got the problems we got. 679 00:21:53,378 --> 00:21:56,948 But it raises this question that Chris has just mentioned 680 00:21:57,049 --> 00:21:58,317 of mental, mentally ill, 681 00:21:58,417 --> 00:22:01,653 our state just has a dismal 682 00:22:01,753 --> 00:22:04,589 record in performance in treating mentally ill. 683 00:22:04,690 --> 00:22:06,024 - We've done a poor job 684 00:22:06,124 --> 00:22:08,226 and you know, the critical thing is 685 00:22:08,327 --> 00:22:11,596 that we invest our resources on the front end 686 00:22:11,697 --> 00:22:15,000 so that people aren't being funneled into 687 00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:17,869 the criminal justice system and the prison system 688 00:22:17,969 --> 00:22:20,439 who really, early on could've been 689 00:22:20,539 --> 00:22:23,575 diverted and helped in other kinds of programs. 690 00:22:23,675 --> 00:22:26,178 - Howard, just pouring more money into our prisons. 691 00:22:26,278 --> 00:22:28,080 That ain't gonna fix it, is it? 692 00:22:28,180 --> 00:22:29,514 - That's not gonna fix it 693 00:22:29,614 --> 00:22:31,116 'cause we made a bad mistake when we decided to 694 00:22:31,216 --> 00:22:33,485 adopt private prisons years ago 695 00:22:33,585 --> 00:22:35,587 and started piling a lot of people into these prisons 696 00:22:35,687 --> 00:22:37,889 that are now transferred into these 697 00:22:37,989 --> 00:22:39,257 more public institutions. 698 00:22:39,358 --> 00:22:40,459 But that's not gonna fix it. 699 00:22:40,559 --> 00:22:42,694 It's, I agree with Chris. 700 00:22:42,794 --> 00:22:44,596 First we gotta start looking at the 701 00:22:44,696 --> 00:22:46,665 what we're paying personnel to go in 702 00:22:46,765 --> 00:22:47,499 and take a risk. 703 00:22:47,599 --> 00:22:48,967 And third, I think, 704 00:22:49,067 --> 00:22:50,969 we need to think seriously about 705 00:22:51,069 --> 00:22:52,237 getting some people outta prison 706 00:22:52,337 --> 00:22:54,206 who don't need to be incarcerated. 707 00:22:54,306 --> 00:22:57,376 - And preparing those to re-enter real life 708 00:22:57,476 --> 00:22:59,411 as they are transitioning from prison. 709 00:22:59,511 --> 00:23:01,179 Back end too, regular society. 710 00:23:01,279 --> 00:23:02,481 - Well that's what we're doing, 711 00:23:02,581 --> 00:23:03,148 just training to be better criminals. 712 00:23:03,248 --> 00:23:04,416 - But you know, 713 00:23:04,516 --> 00:23:05,684 there's a movement and it's happened in some 714 00:23:05,784 --> 00:23:06,351 police departments in North Carolina. 715 00:23:06,451 --> 00:23:07,152 - We got gangs. 716 00:23:07,252 --> 00:23:08,353 - But what we also have, 717 00:23:08,453 --> 00:23:09,588 there's a lot of people who end up in prison 718 00:23:09,688 --> 00:23:10,789 in the first place are mentally ill people 719 00:23:10,889 --> 00:23:11,990 who police don't know how to handle, 720 00:23:12,090 --> 00:23:12,924 or law enforcement don't know how to handle, 721 00:23:13,024 --> 00:23:14,126 there are training programs, 722 00:23:14,226 --> 00:23:15,227 some jurisdictions have 'em, some don't. 723 00:23:15,327 --> 00:23:16,395 Some places in the country 724 00:23:16,495 --> 00:23:17,863 have made big progress 725 00:23:17,963 --> 00:23:19,531 keeping people with mental illness out of prison 726 00:23:19,631 --> 00:23:20,966 in the first place. 727 00:23:21,066 --> 00:23:21,833 That's not the only answer, it's a small piece 728 00:23:21,933 --> 00:23:22,768 of a complicated puzzle. 729 00:23:22,868 --> 00:23:24,169 - Talk about the mentally ill. 730 00:23:24,269 --> 00:23:25,704 You talk to your sheriffs in North Carolina, 731 00:23:25,804 --> 00:23:26,538 they'll tell you the problem 732 00:23:26,638 --> 00:23:27,873 they're running in to. 733 00:23:27,973 --> 00:23:29,341 Alright, gotta transition now 734 00:23:29,441 --> 00:23:30,642 to the time of the show 735 00:23:30,742 --> 00:23:32,344 when we ask the panel to tell us something 736 00:23:32,444 --> 00:23:33,178 we don't know. 737 00:23:33,278 --> 00:23:34,346 Chris Fitzsimon. 738 00:23:34,446 --> 00:23:35,847 - The State republican party announced 739 00:23:35,947 --> 00:23:37,182 one of its keynote speakers at its convention in June 740 00:23:37,282 --> 00:23:38,784 is Corey Lewanowski. 741 00:23:38,884 --> 00:23:41,453 Who was former, who was President Trump's 742 00:23:41,553 --> 00:23:43,188 former campaign manager who's been interviewed 743 00:23:43,288 --> 00:23:44,322 by the intelligence committees, 744 00:23:44,423 --> 00:23:45,424 a special prosecutor, 745 00:23:45,524 --> 00:23:47,025 I'm not making a prediction, 746 00:23:47,125 --> 00:23:48,226 but it wouldn't be shocking if he ran into 747 00:23:48,326 --> 00:23:49,428 some legal trouble. 748 00:23:49,528 --> 00:23:51,062 I though it was the weirdest message to send 749 00:23:51,163 --> 00:23:53,165 when you have republican governors, 750 00:23:53,265 --> 00:23:54,499 republican members around the country 751 00:23:54,599 --> 00:23:56,168 who are well admired, 752 00:23:56,268 --> 00:23:58,370 you have Mitt Romney who's running for the Senate, 753 00:23:58,470 --> 00:24:00,138 who a lot of people know and like who are republicans. 754 00:24:00,238 --> 00:24:01,606 To pick Corey Lewanowski 755 00:24:01,706 --> 00:24:04,042 as a keynote speaker at the State Republic Party Convention, 756 00:24:04,142 --> 00:24:05,977 to me, is a complete head scratcher. 757 00:24:06,077 --> 00:24:07,712 - Alright, I thought it was Lewandowski. 758 00:24:07,813 --> 00:24:09,114 - [Chris] Lewandowski, right. - Lewandowski, alright. 759 00:24:09,214 --> 00:24:10,782 Howard Lee, tell us something we don't know. 760 00:24:10,882 --> 00:24:12,984 - Well I wanna take a little bit different turn 761 00:24:13,084 --> 00:24:14,453 and remember a friend of mine 762 00:24:14,553 --> 00:24:15,987 by the name of John Ely, 763 00:24:16,087 --> 00:24:18,490 some people may know that he passed away this week. 764 00:24:18,590 --> 00:24:20,225 But the reason I wanna highlight him is 765 00:24:20,325 --> 00:24:24,496 he left a legacy that is gonna serve North Carolina well. 766 00:24:24,596 --> 00:24:26,198 The creation of the North Carolina Fund 767 00:24:26,298 --> 00:24:28,133 and the North Carolina School of the Arts, 768 00:24:28,233 --> 00:24:30,302 both of which have become national models. 769 00:24:30,402 --> 00:24:31,136 - Wow. 770 00:24:31,236 --> 00:24:32,070 Alright, Bob Orr. 771 00:24:32,170 --> 00:24:33,305 Tell us something we don't know. 772 00:24:33,405 --> 00:24:34,706 - President Trump just fired the head 773 00:24:34,806 --> 00:24:36,308 of the Veterans Administration. 774 00:24:36,408 --> 00:24:37,742 He's going to appoint his 775 00:24:37,843 --> 00:24:40,612 personal physician to that position. 776 00:24:40,712 --> 00:24:42,314 A friend of mine who's a retired military, 777 00:24:42,414 --> 00:24:44,916 he spent a lot of time both in the military 778 00:24:45,016 --> 00:24:48,053 and post military working with the VA 779 00:24:48,153 --> 00:24:50,822 says it may well be the system is 780 00:24:50,922 --> 00:24:54,059 fundamentally broken and needs to just be... 781 00:24:54,159 --> 00:24:56,628 - Maybe we need a restart for that. 782 00:24:56,728 --> 00:24:58,196 We got 30 seconds, Becki Gray, 783 00:24:58,296 --> 00:24:59,464 tell us something we don't know. 784 00:24:59,564 --> 00:25:00,632 - Tom, we've talked a lot about on this show 785 00:25:00,732 --> 00:25:02,133 of the urban rural divide 786 00:25:02,234 --> 00:25:03,635 and how to bridge that. 787 00:25:03,735 --> 00:25:05,504 In North Carolina, 31 counties 788 00:25:05,604 --> 00:25:07,839 do not have an OBGYN doctor. 789 00:25:07,939 --> 00:25:10,642 One way to get that care into those counties 790 00:25:10,742 --> 00:25:13,678 may be to loosen the regulations on midwives 791 00:25:13,778 --> 00:25:16,314 and let them practice in some of those 31 counties 792 00:25:16,414 --> 00:25:17,849 and bring prenatal and maternity care... 793 00:25:17,949 --> 00:25:19,184 - We're gonna do a show on... 794 00:25:19,284 --> 00:25:21,052 - [Becki] To many of our patients. 795 00:25:21,152 --> 00:25:23,455 - Patrick Woody at a forum recently, 796 00:25:23,555 --> 00:25:24,990 very articulate. 797 00:25:25,090 --> 00:25:26,625 Well you've heard our spin on the issues of the day. 798 00:25:26,725 --> 00:25:28,493 To stay informed all during the week, 799 00:25:28,593 --> 00:25:30,929 give your feedback and read my weekly column, 800 00:25:31,029 --> 00:25:32,697 be sure to visit our website, 801 00:25:32,797 --> 00:25:36,001 ncspin.com or catch NC Spin on Facebook. 802 00:25:36,101 --> 00:25:37,636 And be sure to join us next week 803 00:25:37,736 --> 00:25:39,170 when we'll have more balanced debate 804 00:25:39,271 --> 00:25:40,171 for the Old North State. 805 00:25:40,272 --> 00:25:42,107 Until then, stay informed, 806 00:25:42,207 --> 00:25:43,909 and watch out for the spin. 807 00:25:44,009 --> 00:25:46,611 [upbeat music] 808 00:25:53,451 --> 00:25:55,854 - [Narrator] Life's busy, but you're in control. 809 00:25:55,954 --> 00:25:58,089 As an electric cooperative member, 810 00:25:58,189 --> 00:25:59,858 you have access to lots of tools 811 00:25:59,958 --> 00:26:02,327 to help manage your home energy use and budget 812 00:26:02,427 --> 00:26:05,330 so you can focus on what's most important. 813 00:26:07,599 --> 00:26:09,734 - Quality of life enjoyed by North Carolinians 814 00:26:09,834 --> 00:26:11,736 comes from the sacrifice of our state 815 00:26:11,836 --> 00:26:13,338 and local government retirees. 816 00:26:13,438 --> 00:26:15,574 These men and women risked their lives 817 00:26:15,674 --> 00:26:16,608 in times of danger, 818 00:26:16,708 --> 00:26:18,043 they taught our children, 819 00:26:18,143 --> 00:26:20,011 kept our neighborhoods clean, 820 00:26:20,111 --> 00:26:21,980 and protected the state's resources. 821 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,183 They are North Carolina's silent heroes. 822 00:26:25,283 --> 00:26:27,218 The North Carolina Retired Governmental 823 00:26:27,319 --> 00:26:28,219 Employees Association 824 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,722 proudly serves as the voice 825 00:26:30,822 --> 00:26:34,326 for more than 300,000 retirees across North Carolina. 826 00:26:34,426 --> 00:26:35,727 Our retirees deserve no less, 827 00:26:35,827 --> 00:26:37,829 and every day, we stand by them. 828 00:26:39,931 --> 00:26:41,099 - [Announcer] North Carolina Channel 829 00:26:41,199 --> 00:26:43,335 is made possible by the financial contributions 830 00:26:43,435 --> 00:26:44,536 of viewers like you 831 00:26:44,636 --> 00:26:46,905 who support the UNC-TV network.