- [Announcer] This is NC Spin.

An unrehearsed discussion
on issues of interest

to North Carolinians.

Now, here is your
moderator, Tom Campbell.

- Welcome to balanced debate
for the Old North State.

We hope you rested up
over the Easter holiday

'cause we're got a
full agenda for you.

We begin by asking our panel

to discuss a new
program called Restart

that gives low performing
schools in our state

more flexibility.

UNC President Margaret Spellings

has just completed
two years on the job

and we talk about a
performance bonus given her.

We have a prison
crisis in our state

and we debate how we can fix it.

And of course, we won't stop

until the panel tells us
something we don't know.

Speaking of said panel, let's
welcome this week's analysts.

They include:

Howard Lee, former State
Senator and former Chair

of the State Board of Education;

Chris Fitzsimon, columnist
and political analyst;

Becki Gray with the
John Locke Foundation;

and Bob Orr, the former
Supreme Court Justice.

Well, we begin our
uninterrupted debate

after these brief messages
from our underwriters.

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- For many years, North
Carolina has struggled

with what to do about
low performing schools,

those schools that
don't achieve as much

as others around them.

We're now undertaking a
program called Restart.

Somewhat similar
to charter schools,

and at these low
performing schools

are gonna have more flexibility
and fewer regulations

with which to deal.

They can arbitrarily to decide

to extend the school
year, the school day,

use funds in different ways,

have more flexibility
in hiring teachers,

and teaching methods.

Howard Lee is a former Chair

of the State Board of Education

and someone who is now
head of a foundation

working directly with
schools in our state.

What's your opinion of
this new Restart program?

- Well, I think it's a
new name that's being

overlayed on an old
continued problem,

and that is that

while they give
flexibility to the schools,

many of these schools have
had flexibility all along,

especially in the
office of the principal.

I'm concerned that we are too

completely missing the
boat unless we're willing

to completely flip
the education pedagogy

on its head and
change how we are

instructing and educating kids.

- So you're saying it's
not rules and regulations

as much as it is the
actual instructional...

- The actual
instructional process

and that, of course, starts,

starts and stops with the
principal at the school,

and keeping teachers
in the classroom

for an extended period of time.

- Chris, a low performing school

is defined as a school
that scores a D or an F

on the annual evaluation
that it receives,

and it's due to the
achievement that's less

than expected

for two out of three years.

There are currently 500
schools in North Carolina

that fit into that category

and the list is
growing every year.

Why?

- Well, that's a good question,

we need to figure it out.

But one thing we do know

is that 90, between 95 and
97% over the last years

of the schools that
have a D or an F

are schools with higher
than 50% of their students

who receive free
and reduced lunch.

That's based on the
formula that we use

to give schools a letter grade.

So if you're a low
performing school,

if you're a low income school,

and you dramatically improve,

you don't, you could
still have a D or an F

year after year after year

because all the
numbers keep going up.

There's been...

- And that part of it is
weighed more heavily...

- It's 80% of the grade,

and we've had Republican
houses pass the bill

saying it should be 50/50.

We want you to have,

get to a certain level,

but we wanna reward
your growth and hardwork

and achievement, and
the Senate has refused

to even take that up.

The House even put it
in the budget one year.

So part of the problem,
I don't disagree

with Senator Lee at all,

but part of the problem we have

is how we categorize
these schools.

There are a lot of 'em where
kids are making progress

and they still get a D or an F

which hurts the
morale at the school,

hurts the parents'
view of the school,

hurts how the teachers
view themselves,

and I think we need
to change that.

- Becki, the Department
of Public Instruction

talking about low
performing schools,

I mean, one of the things

that comes to mind obviously,

is we gotta come in here

and reinforce and help

that school perhaps, more
than we do other schools.

Department of Public
Instruction says

we don't have the
money for that.

We're not given extra
appropriations for that.

Significantly enough
to make any difference.

Should they?

- Well, Tom...

- [Tom] Should the
legislature give it to them?

- Well, that depends on

do you need the money and
what do you need it for?

Some of these things
like the Restart program

that you're talking about,

about giving those
low performing schools

more flexibility in the
way that they use the money

that they're getting, funding
things in different ways,

you know, as you mentioned,
different curriculum,

hours, all of those
kind of things,

that's not a big
appropriation difference,

it's just a different
way of managing school.

So I think that, you know,

I mean, I push back a
little bit on the premise

of your question,

the answer to
improving education

is not always

do we need more money?

Or if we just spent more money,

we would get better results.

- I'll accept that.
It's what can we do,

and I think the
Restart in these,

giving local schools, giving
low performing schools

as Senator Lee mentioned,

more authority to do
things that they need

and putting the power into
the hand of the principal

to spend the money they're
getting the way they need

is where we need
to start with this.

- Well, I was just
gonna jump in and say

but spending less
isn't the answer,

and we're spending less
per capita on students

when you adjust for
inflation than we were

in 2008.

So we can argue, maybe we
don't need to spend a ton more,

but we don't need to spend less.

- Now let's talk about the
subject of flexibility, Bob.

Because that seems to
be the big buzz word

in education these
days, is flexibility.

This Restart program,
as Howard says,

it really is not new,
it's just got a new name.

It was actually part of
the improvement project,

which was initiated by
our friend Jerry Hancock,

who was one of the litigants
in the Leandro lawsuit.

As well as ten superintendents
across the state,

what they did is they said,

"Okay, what are the obstacles

"in the way of these
low performing schools?

"And what can we do

"to try to overcome
these obstacles?"

Flexibility was,

was a large part of
what they came up to.

From your standpoint, how
important is flexibility?

- Well, I think flexibility is

a critical component.

The whole concept
behind charter schools

was to experiment with ways

to better educate our kids,

but then move those things

that did succeed into the
broader public school system.

But I have to say,

take a little bit of
an exception with Becki

on the resources,

many of these schools are
in low wealth communities

and counties, and they need...

- [Tom] A large number of 'em.

- Yes, and they need,
they need resources

to attract really good teachers.

We gotta figure out

why they're low performing.

- Let's talk about some
of that flexibility.

Howard, you were getting
ready to say something,

I'll let you say it
in just a second.

But part of it is

giving these schools,
these individual schools

more flexibility as
far as hiring teachers.

The teachers don't
have to be certified

in the subject.

How big a problem is
this licensure problem

so far as recruiting teachers?

- Well, it's...

- [Tom] Particularly,
lateral entrance.

- Yeah, it's really
not that big of a

impediment on being
able to succeed

in educating kids.

That's the difference
between the charter school

and the so called
Restart school,

is that the Restarts must
have certified teachers,

and the charters, of
course, do not have to.

But let me be very clear,

there are a lot of leaders
out here in our schools

that don't even use

the level of flexibility
that they already have.

And, of course, some of
them are running up against

the stone wall when
they go out and try to

hire teachers, and they,

like in one school I work with,

they brought in five
high-level math teachers

in the first, in
the school year,

and before three
months were gone,

all five of those
teachers had left.

- [Tom] Why?

- Because they,
their circumstances,

the environment,

and they just feel like
they're working against

a uphill battle
trying to educate kids

that are really kinda slow.

I wish I were educational czar

because the first thing I'd...

- I wish you were too,
as a matter of fact.

- [Harold] The
first thing I'd do

is eliminate greed.

- We can vote, yeah.

- But at any rate.

- Becki, one of the other topics

they're talking about
in this flexibility

is the ability to
be able to control

the school calendar better,

particularly, as it
relates to the beginning

of the school year, the
end of the school year.

Craig Horn, in the
North Carolina House
of Representatives,

every year introduces
a legislation

to be able to give
schools more flexibility.

It always gets beaten by

the Leisure and
Hospitality Industry,

why shouldn't schools
have more flexibility?

- I think they should.

And it's not just starting
date and ending date,

but what about flexibility
for the school week?

One of these Restart
schools, at least one of 'em

have changed the school week

where there are extended
hours Monday through Thursday,

Friday is a shorter
day for the students,

gives teachers a
built-in planning day

to regroup, meet
within themselves,

mentor, get geared
up for the next week.

So if that works
better for your school,

why not have that flexibility?

You know, we talk about
the school calendar,

we think of start and end dates,

but there's a lot,

think of all the flexibility
that you could do

within your school day.

- Well the only
problem with that

is if you've got three
children and they're in

two different schools,

and one of 'em starts the
school day at seven a.m.

and the next one starts at nine,

and they don't work, they
don't have class on Friday.

I mean, it does get
to be complicated.

- It gets complicated,

but Tom, you know, I think
we need to quit trying

to design a school
system that is convenient

and one that really works
for outcomes of kids

and focus on that.

- So, Bob, this Restart program,

we got 104 schools that
are in it right now,

they are 14 more
awaiting approval

from the State
Board of Education,

this looks like it's
getting ready to be,

a sort of a snowball
down the hill, avalanche

that we're forming here,

and it's still a
very early thing.

Very quickly, I wanna go around

and ask everybody,

what's it gonna
take for us to know

whether it's working or not?

- Well, we're gonna,

whether the kids coming
out of these schools

perform adequately on tests.

- That's gonna take
several years, doesn't it?

- Sure.

I mean, this is, this
is moving the Titanic

in incremental ways.

Not in some quick turnaround.

- [Tom] Quickly, Becki,
what do you think?

- You know, to this
point, you know

any of those changes, we
need to keep the data,

it's too early.

This is relatively new.

This is too early to have
the data to know really,

to make those measurements
and make clear.

But I think it's significant
that this started

with five schools,

as you mentioned, it's now 104.

We have 14 that are in the cue,

so school administrators,
principals,

people who are doing this,

I think that's a sign,

they want the flexibility.

- Chris?

- Well, we're gonna know
in the test scores, again,

but it's gonna take a long time.

I wanna say quickly,
one of the things

I think we need to shift

is start talking
about how to fix,

help these schools, and
start thinking about

how to help these students.

If you talk to people who
run community schools,

they'll tell you
heartbreaking stories of kids

who have never seen a dentist

and people think they're stupid.

Or people who's, kids
who's glasses don't work...

- They're singing your
song, aren't they, Howard?

- But I mean, that's
part of what I wish

we could give these
schools flexibility

and resources to make sure
every kid in that class

somehow, somebody's
helping him or her

find appropriate care.

- Howard, what's your response?

- I would measure by
one, one standard only,

and that is keeping
teachers in the classroom

for an extended period of years,

and I think, if you can do that,

you can see obvious and
very quick results coming

as I have seen in
one school in Durham,

where I had a great principal,

and he was able to cut
down on teacher turnover,

and the test scores
of these kids

- But you've put your finger

on something here.
- Have gone up.

- David Brooks wrote a column,

I don't know whether you
read it a couple weeks ago

or not, but he was talking
about the keys to success

in schools, and he mentioned

that the principals were
really the primary key

to success.

And he said, for a principal
to be really effective,

they've got to have four to
seven years in that school.

The problem is the
average principal leaves

after about three
years because of what

they have to put up with.

- And keep the local school
board out of his hair.

- [Tom] Yeah.

- Because that to me

is one of the great
impediments of our schools.

- And the office.

- And giving more flexibility
to those principals

may very well be the key

to keeping them in the schools.

- Final question
in this subject.

This business of flexibility.

If we think it is
such a good idea,

and it seems to be one

that is getting a lot of buzz.

If we think it's
such a good idea,

why not give every
school in North Carolina

the same flexibility we give
our charter schools, Howard?

- Yeah, yeah.

I've always preached that song,

and I'm singing that song,

and I certainly believe

that that would be a
major step forward,

and it would commit to the fact

that we are really serious
about wanting to...

- We could probably
save some money

in the Department of
Public Instruction too,

couldn't we?

- Well, and another
thing I would do,

and this is probably
gonna upset some people,

but I would take
a real close look

at whether or not
busing isn't impacting

the educational experiences
of many of our children.

- And this is the one
thing, by the way,

that these Restart
school have to provide

is busing.

- Absolutely.

- What do you think?

Why not give 'em
all flexibility?

- Well I think, you
know, flexibility.

- Don't we trust 'em?

- Well, I think we
should trust 'em more,

but I also think
flexibility sometimes

replaces the investment.

I think we need both.

You can't say here's flex-

you don't need anymore
resources for these kids

who are struggling, just
a lot more flexibility.

No, you need both.

You need to figure out a
way to reach these kids

and help them and
their families.

- Becki, why not give it all?

- I think we should.

And I think we should

treat principals as
CEOs of these schools.

And to Chris's point, you know

the focus needs to be on
the outcomes of the kids

in the classroom managed
by really good teachers.

- Bob, it looks like we
can fix the school system.

- Yeah, absolutely.

[laughs]

Creativity

comes out of flexibility.

And creativity is how
you solve these kinds

of problems.

- And it may be
different in each school.

- True.

- Talking about education,

UNC President Margaret
Spellings recently observed

her two year anniversary
of leadership

at our university system.

She started with
controversy over her hiring

and had to deal with
a sports scandal,

a legislature not pleased
with the system's progress,

and most recently,
with a maverick board

that is interested
in getting involved

in the running of the system
and making great changes.

Her own evaluation of
her first two years,

it's that she's pleased
but not satisfied

with what she's accomplished.

But the UNC Board of
Governors gave her a

$95,000 bonus.

Even that was met with

opposition inside the board
that strongly disagreed with it.

Bob Orr, board member Tom Fetzer

was one of those who
opposed publicly this bonus.

Saying Spellings makes
three quarters of

$775,000 a year,

taxpayers shouldn't have to
add another hundred grand,

and he says,

"How can the system
talk about reducing cost

"in education when it gives
administrators large bonuses?"

Your take on this.

- Well, it's a big job that
Margaret Spellings has.

She's by all accounts,
done an exceptional job

in her first two years.

And, I agree, it's
a lotta money.

But when you look
around the state

at Tom Fetzer's alma
mater Wake Forest,

the president of Wake Forest
makes four million dollars

a year.

You go over to
the athletic side,

we have basketball
and football coaches

making two million
dollars a year.

So, to me,

putting it in proportion
what she's getting paid

for managing a 17 member system

with a very diverse and
different group of schools.

- 17 chancellors, 17 boards,

and a board of governor,
and the legislature.

- [Bob] And the legislature.

[laughs]

Yeah, it's a big job.

- You know, I don't
know that I'd do it

for that amount of money.

Howard, you take on this thing.

- Well, I tell ya,

$775,000 is a lotta money,

and that's probably
among the highest paid

public university
leaders in the country.

If not, it's certainly
in the state.

I think Margaret
has done a fine job

leading the university
during her first two years,

but I don't think giving
a bonus at this time

is in the best interest
of our education system.

Number one, it sends a
terrible message down the line

to faculty members,
many of whom are leaving

because they feel
they're underpaid,

and they're going to
private institutions.

We cannot compare
private institutions

with public institutions in
terms of the money they pay

when we look at the tuition.

- Chris, should we have,

should public employees
have performance bonuses?

- Well I think it
should be some part

of evaluation.

My issue with this is

I think she, $775,000
is a lot of money,

but I think you could argue,

and Bob I thought
did effectively,

that she might deserve
that much money.

The bonus is the question.

I think in giving, when
we're losing faculty

as Howard mentioned, I
don't think a lotta people

in North Carolina are having
a $95,000 a year bonus,

but I will say this,

she's having to
put up with a board

and a legislative leadership,

that Senate leadership,
it's no secret,

did not want her to get
the job in the first place,

and some of the
appointees on the board,

still don't want
her in that job.

- She has opposition
from the legislature,

she has opposition
from her own board,

or some of the board.

- [Chris] Some of the
members of the board.

- And she had the
faculty, and students.

- It's worth
remembering many members

of the search committee that
picked her as incumbents

ran for re-election
and were not picked

by the legislative leaders
because they were mad

that she was hired
in the first place.

- Let's get back to that

sort of rogue board that
she's dealing with right now.

I don't think we've
ever, in all the years

that we've seen this,

and I remember Bill
Friday telling us

when that 32 member board
was originally constituted

he didn't like it and for
some of these same reasons.

But back to this
Board of Governors,

they seem to be much
more proactive, Becki,

than what we've
seen in the past.

In fact, it looks like
they wanna meddle in

the operations of the university
instead of setting policy.

Is that an accurate read?

- I think that's probably
an accurate read,

but this is a different board,
this is a different time.

This board moved
forward with the hiring

of Margaret Spellings,

with some changes within
the university system

that they were
gonna ask questions.

I think there's been a history

on the Board of Governors of

they just kind of
approved anything

that was put before them,

when you have
different leadership,

you mentioned Bill Friday,
not a lot of controversy.

This is a different board,
it's a different time.

They're challenging,
they're disruptive,

they're asking questions.

It is different, you're right.

I don't think we know now
whether it's better or worse.

I think Margaret
Spellings is doing

a outstanding job of...

- Well she's got
three more years

left on this contract.

And frankly, with all
that she's dealing with.

- [Becki] It's hard to manage.

- I'm just wondering
is she gonna stay

the whole three years?

Or do you think you might

just throw up her hands and say,

"It ain't worth it."

- I don't think she's
that kind of leader.

I think that, you know,

she's one that has
committed to his,

she's had a good...

- Well, she was George Bush's
Secretary of Education.

- This is a tough lady.

I don't think she's
gonna throw her hands up.

- It is not a secret
in Chapel Hill

however, that she's
very frustrated.

Not at that the board
is all republicans,

she's a republican and
then the past board

that put her on there.

But the new members
of the board,

Fetzer and Rucho and these guys

have been openly
critical of her,

have been trying to
take away her authority

inside the system.

It's not a secret in Chapel Hill

that she's very frustrated.

- And Bob, that is,
that is something

that is new from
that standpoint.

Typically, if there
have been squabbles

inside the Board of Governors,

we hadn't heard much about it.

They're going public.
- It's been very public.

- Yeah, this is much more
political oriented board,

certainly in the newest members,

but if anybody can handle it,

Margaret Spellings can.

And I think she's
a great advocate

for each of those campuses,

and for those faculty
members and staff people.

The optics of the
bonus may be a problem.

But, if not her,
who would we have?

- And I think you have
to go back to, you know,

what kind of job is she doing?

What does our university
system look like?

Graduation rates are up,

tuition is down,

college education
is more available

to more North Carolinians
than it ever has been.

- Need to move on,
if you don't mind.

2017 was the
deadliest year in our

North Carolina prison system.

Both for prisoners
as well as guards.

We had roughly 37,000
inmates in our prisons,

and we're told about
5,000 are behind bars

23 or 24 hours a day.

More than one in five
reportedly has mental illness.

And we've got staff
shortages of 25%

or even higher in
some of our prisons.

More leaving the job than
are being recruited to work

because they won't accept
the $32,000 a year salary.

Because of risk.

And morale is at
an all time low.

Lawmakers are screaming
to get something done.

Chris Fitzsimon,
Secretary of Public Safety

Erik Hooks stated the
obvious in saying that

our prisons are dangerous places

filled with dangerous people,

but we've got a prison
crisis right now

in North Carolina.

Where do you get started
trying to fix it?

- Well this would be,

I would hope, and we've
done this in our past

in North Carolina,

that we would be able
to convene some sort of,

in the long-term, or medium-term

some sort of
bipartisan commission

to really look at this, look at
what other states do,

come up with a recommendation.

Just very complicated.

- The legislature has one.

- Well, I know.

But we'll see how bipartisan
they will be in the end.

And I, what I'd like,

there's several things.

First of all, we still have
a lot of nonviolent people

who shouldn't be there
in the first place.

And we've made some
progress in North Carolina

in doing that.

Secondly, you mentioned,

think about doing that
job for $32,000 a year

and why does it only
pay $32,000 a year?

You should be doubled that
just to start in those jobs.

And thirdly, we have
to figure out a way

to keep these places safe

and mental illness
is a big issue

you also raised.

We're still struggling
in North Carolina

to deal with the prison system,

is our largest mental
health facility.

Which, a lot of the
people shouldn't be there

in the first place.

- But it shouldn't be
from that standpoint.

- [Chris] That's exactly
right, that's my point.

- Secretary Hooks, Bob, says

that what you've
got in our prisons

in many instances today,

is you've got a
bunch of mean people

mixed up with sick people.

And no wonder we got
the problems we got.

But it raises this question
that Chris has just mentioned

of mental, mentally ill,

our state just has a dismal

record in performance in
treating mentally ill.

- We've done a poor job

and you know, the
critical thing is

that we invest our
resources on the front end

so that people aren't
being funneled into

the criminal justice system
and the prison system

who really, early
on could've been

diverted and helped in
other kinds of programs.

- Howard, just pouring more
money into our prisons.

That ain't gonna fix it, is it?

- That's not gonna fix it

'cause we made a bad
mistake when we decided to

adopt private prisons years ago

and started piling a lot of
people into these prisons

that are now
transferred into these

more public institutions.

But that's not gonna fix it.

It's, I agree with Chris.

First we gotta
start looking at the

what we're paying
personnel to go in

and take a risk.

And third, I think,

we need to think seriously about

getting some people outta prison

who don't need to
be incarcerated.

- And preparing those
to re-enter real life

as they are transitioning
from prison.

Back end too, regular society.

- Well that's what we're doing,

just training to be
better criminals.

- But you know,

there's a movement and
it's happened in some

police departments
in North Carolina.

- We got gangs.

- But what we also have,

there's a lot of people
who end up in prison

in the first place are
mentally ill people

who police don't
know how to handle,

or law enforcement don't
know how to handle,

there are training programs,

some jurisdictions
have 'em, some don't.

Some places in the country

have made big progress

keeping people with mental
illness out of prison

in the first place.

That's not the only
answer, it's a small piece

of a complicated puzzle.

- Talk about the mentally ill.

You talk to your sheriffs
in North Carolina,

they'll tell you the problem

they're running in to.

Alright, gotta transition now

to the time of the show

when we ask the panel
to tell us something

we don't know.

Chris Fitzsimon.

- The State republican
party announced

one of its keynote speakers
at its convention in June

is Corey Lewanowski.

Who was former, who
was President Trump's

former campaign manager
who's been interviewed

by the intelligence committees,

a special prosecutor,

I'm not making a prediction,

but it wouldn't be
shocking if he ran into

some legal trouble.

I though it was the
weirdest message to send

when you have
republican governors,

republican members
around the country

who are well admired,

you have Mitt Romney who's
running for the Senate,

who a lot of people know and
like who are republicans.

To pick Corey Lewanowski

as a keynote speaker at the
State Republic Party Convention,

to me, is a complete
head scratcher.

- Alright, I thought
it was Lewandowski.

- [Chris] Lewandowski, right.
- Lewandowski, alright.

Howard Lee, tell us
something we don't know.

- Well I wanna take a
little bit different turn

and remember a friend of mine

by the name of John Ely,

some people may know that
he passed away this week.

But the reason I
wanna highlight him is

he left a legacy that is gonna
serve North Carolina well.

The creation of the
North Carolina Fund

and the North Carolina
School of the Arts,

both of which have
become national models.

- Wow.

Alright, Bob Orr.

Tell us something we don't know.

- President Trump
just fired the head

of the Veterans Administration.

He's going to appoint his

personal physician
to that position.

A friend of mine who's
a retired military,

he spent a lot of time
both in the military

and post military
working with the VA

says it may well
be the system is

fundamentally broken
and needs to just be...

- Maybe we need a
restart for that.

We got 30 seconds, Becki Gray,

tell us something we don't know.

- Tom, we've talked a
lot about on this show

of the urban rural divide

and how to bridge that.

In North Carolina, 31 counties

do not have an OBGYN doctor.

One way to get that
care into those counties

may be to loosen the
regulations on midwives

and let them practice in
some of those 31 counties

and bring prenatal
and maternity care...

- We're gonna do a show on...

- [Becki] To many
of our patients.

- Patrick Woody at
a forum recently,

very articulate.

Well you've heard our spin
on the issues of the day.

To stay informed
all during the week,

give your feedback and
read my weekly column,

be sure to visit our website,

ncspin.com or catch
NC Spin on Facebook.

And be sure to join us next week

when we'll have
more balanced debate

for the Old North State.

Until then, stay informed,

and watch out for the spin.

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but you're in control.