- [Narrator] He was
bigger than boxing.

- [Ali] I am the greatest!

- [Narrator] He was
larger than life.

- His magnetism
just was amazing.

Who is this guy?

- He was a revolutionary.

He was a groundbreaker.

- Ain't nobody gon' stop me!

- [Narrator] Ken Burns
captures an intimate story

of victory, defeat
and determination.

- The price of
freedom comes high.

I have paid but I am free.

- [Narrator] Muhammad Ali.

Tune in or stream.

Starts Sunday, September
19th at 8/7 Central,

only on PBS.

- Good evening

and welcome to the first event

in our discussion series,

"Conversations on
Muhammad Ali presented

"by PBS and ESPN's
The Undefeated."

I'm Sylvia Bugg, Chief
Programming Executive at PBS.

For more than 50 years,

PBS has been proud to serve

as America's home
for documentaries;

providing our audiences with
impactful and inspiring films

that cover a wide range of
topics and perspectives.

This September, PBS is delighted

to present the latest
from Ken Burns,

Sarah Burns, David
McMahon, and their team;

a four-part documentary
series on the global icon,

Muhammad Ali.

This series take us
deep into the life

of one of the most
indelible figures

of the 20th century,

showing us the true
nature of the man

who called himself
"The Greatest"

and proved it.

Today's discussion, simply
titled "Ali: The Man,"

will explore the
humanity of Muhammad Ali

as a loving father,

an advocate for peace,

and an inspirational
voice of pride

and self-affirmation
in the black community.

In just a few moments,

we'll show you the
introduction to the film.

Then, senior writer for The
Undefeated, Jesse Washington,

will moderate a conversation

with co-director Ken Burns,

Muhammad Ali's
daughter, Rasheda Ali,

and author and sports
columnist, Howard Bryant.

Thank you for joining
us this evening

and please enjoy this
evening's discussion.

And don't forget to tune in

to the premiere
of "Muhammad Ali"

on September 19th at 8:00
PM Eastern Time on PBS

- Can I have some
of your corn flakes?

Oh, I don't want none.

I won't take none,
I won't take any.

I won't eat any if
you don't want me to.

Oh, look at the pretty horsey!

Is that a white horse?

See?

Stand up, look over there.

Stand up, you gotta
stand up (indistinct).

(indistinct)

What?

(crowd cheering)

- My earliest memories
that I can think of

as a child with my father
are walking through airports

and being in crowds,

and feeling the vibrations
of people's clapping

and shouts in my chest.

And just looking at my dad,

like "Who is this person?"

And it was all the
time, anywhere we went.

"You're the greatest,
we love you!"

And the clapping and "Muhammad!"

- Ali Bomaye!

Ali Bomaye!

- [Crowd] Ali!

Bomaye!

Ali!

Bomaye!

- We now think of Muhammad Ali

as this vulnerable guy,

lighting the torch in Atlanta

and everybody on
the globe loves him.

Black people like him,

white people.

He's a universal hero,

almost in a religious
way, like the Buddha.

But when he was in the
midst of his career,

and not just in the early bit,

he was incredibly divisive.

- Boo, yell, scream,
throw peanuts,

but whatever you do,

pay to get in.

- People hated him,

whether it was
along racial lines,

class lines, Vietnam lines,

political lines,
religious lines,

or they just couldn't stand him.

And people, of course,
had the opposite

and this was, "I loved him!

"Loved him!"

(upbeat music)
But you had an opinion

about him.

- (indistinct)

Look how pretty I am.

The long, trimmed legs,

and the beautiful arms,

and a pretty nose and mouth.

I know I'm a pretty man.

I know I'm pretty.

You don't have to
tell me I'm pretty.

- [Ali V.O] I'm
cocky, I'm proud.

- You never talk about
who gon' stop me,

'case ain't nobody
gonna stop me!

- I say what I wanted to say!

It ain't no more big
niggas talking like this.

- He was a pioneer.

He was a revolutionary.

He was a ground breaker.

A guy known simply
as "The Greatest."

- I am the greatest!

- [Ali V.O] I've
rassled with alligators,

I've tussled with a whale.

I done handcuffed lightning,

and put thunder in jail.

You know I'm bad!

I can drown the drink of water

and kill a dead tree.

- This will be no contest.

- [Ali V.O] Wait 'til
you see Muhammad Ali.

- To have that chutzpah

and to be a black man in
America was just outlandish.

- "Muhammad" means
"worthy of all praises;"

and "Ali" means "most high."

- And I just don't think

I should go 10,000
miles in there

and shoot some black people
that never called me nigger.

I just can't shoot 'em.

- I always wonder why Miss
America was always white,

Santa Claus is white,

White Swan Soap,

King White Soap,

White Cloud tissue paper,

and everything bad was black.

Black cat was the bad luck.

And if I threaten you, I'm
going to blackmail you.

I said, "Mama, why don't
they call it whitemail?

"They lie too."

- I loved being around him.

I love being around
Muhammad Ali.

- You gon' float like a
butterfly and sting like a bee.

Rumble, young man, rumble.

- The price of
freedom comes high.

I have paid but I am free.

- [Announcer] The
winner and still

the heavyweight
champion of the world.

- [Narrator] He called
himself "The Greatest"

and then proved it
to the entire world.

He was a master at what is
called "the sweet science;"

the brutal and, sometimes,
beautiful art of boxing.

Heavyweight champion
at just 22 years old,

he wrote his own rules

in the ring and in his life,

infuriating his critics,

baffling his opponents,

and riveting millions of fans.

At the height of the
Civil Rights Movement,

he joined a separatist
religious sect

whose leader would, for a time,

dominate both his personal life

and his boxing career.

He spoke his mind and
stood on principle,

even when it cost
him his livelihood.

He redefined black manhood,

yet belittled his
greatest rival using

the racist language
of the Jim Crow South,

in which he had been raised.

Banished for his beliefs,

he returned to
boxing an underdog,

reclaimed his title twice,

and became the most
famous man on earth.

He craved adulation
his whole life,

seeking crowds on
street corners,

in hotel lobbies,

on airport tarmacs,

everywhere he went,

and reveled in the
uninhibited joy

he brought each adoring fan.

He earned a massive fortune,

spent it freely,

and gave generously
to family, friends,

even strangers, anyone in need.

"Service to others,"
he often said,

"is the rent you pay for
your room here on earth."

Even after his body
began to betray him

and his brain had
absorbed too many blows,

he fought on,

unable to go without
the attention and drama

that accompanied each bout.

Later, slowed and silenced by

a cruel and crippling disease,

he found refuge in his faith;

becoming a symbol of peace
and hope on every continent.

"Muhammad Ali was," the
novelist, Norman Mailer wrote,

"the very spirit of
the 20th century."

- I've always wanted
to be one black one

who got big or your
white televisions,

on your white newspapers,

on your satellites,

million dollar checks,

and still look you in your face,

and tell you the truth,

and 100% stay with and
represent my people,

and not leave them
and sell them out

because I'm rich,

and stay with them.

That was my purpose.

I'm here and I'm
showing the world

that you can be
here and still free,

and stay yourself,

and get respect from the world.

- Welcome, welcome,
welcome everyone,

I'm Jesse Washington
from The Undefeated.

Really pleased to be here today

to discuss this wonderful
new film, "Muhammad Ali."

I'd like to introduce
our panelists.

First, we have the director
himself, Ken Burns;

the prolific
documentary filmmaker

whose credits are far too
numerous to name here.

But he is bringing
us this new look

at the life and meaning of
"The Greatest of All Time."

I think it's important to note

that there's a lot of talk

about GOAT this and
GOAT that these days,

it's become almost a cliche.

We've got herds of
GOATs everywhere,

but there is only one
"Greatest of All Time"

when it comes to
athletics in this country

forever and ever,

and that is Muhammad Ali.

Ken Burns, welcome

and we're glad to have you.

- Thank you, Jesse.

It's great to be
working with you

and The Undefeated,

and on behalf of Sarah
Burns and David McMahon,

who are the two co-directors

and those two are the writers,

we're so grateful
to be part of this.

Thank you.
- Thank you.

We also have Howard
Bryant here with us,

the journalist and
author of nine books.

Most recently, his
most latest book,

is "Full Dissidence: Notes
From an Uneven Playing Field."

And Howard is a longtime
columnist at ESPN,

has worked at many
other newspaper outlets

in this country.

All of the best
ones, if I may say.

And is also a newly
minted contributor

to Meadowlark Media,

where we will be
seeing more of his work

in a variety of other
forms and platforms.

Howard, welcome.
- Thank you, Jesse.

Good seeing you again.
- Good to see you too.

And also we have Rasheda Ali,

an author, speaker,
humanitarian,

and daughter of Muhammad Ali.

Rasheda, it's great to
have you here today.

- Hi Jesse, thanks
for having me.

I'm honored.
- You're very welcome.

We're honored to
be here with you.

So wonderful film, Ken.

It was great to see an
early version of it.

I was enraptured and
riveted by your work.

And the first thing
I'd like to ask you is

that you're
approaching this giant,

so much has been written,

so much has been said.

Films upon films,

books upon books.

What is it that you
wanted accomplish

when you started
out with this film,

and now that it's finished

and about to be released
on September 19th on PBS,

what is it that you
want people to learn

from this film about Ali?

- Oh, that's a
complicated question.

Thank you, and Sarah and
Dave would probably have

different variations
of that question...

Or the answer to that question.

You know, we're drawn to him.

He's a spellbinding,

hugely important person

in the history of
the United States.

It's not just sports.

I'm drawn to him personally.

In the course of my
professional life,

I've gotten to know a
lot of amazing Americans.

Only two others come
to mind that have

a sense of charisma,

a sense of purpose,

a sense of being
able to embody us

in all of our contradictions.

One of them is Abraham Lincoln

and the other is
Louis Armstrong,

and Muhammad Ali is
in that select group

of someone who's just
personally touched me.

I'm not talking about
where he is placed

in the pantheon of sportspeople.

I agree with you
Jesse, he's at the top.

There are a lot of
films about him.

There are a lot of really,
really good films about him

but I think what we
wanted to do is do

a true biography from his
boyhood in Louisville,

in Jim Crow America,

up to his death not too many
years ago by Parkinson's

and everything in between.

So not just a couple of fights,

there's two dozen that
are treated in detail,

not just his difficulties

with the United States over

the draft and induction,

not just this or that,
but the whole thing,

and try to get a sense
of who the whole man is,

warts and all,

as the introduction,
I think, suggested.

And it would be so presumptuous

of any one of us,

Sarah, Dave, or me,

to say this is "What
you should take away."

We just want to tell a good

and complicated story

that is able to
contain contradictions.

But at the end, you
begin to realize

how extraordinarily
gifted this man was,

not just at his
chosen profession,

but at the profession
of being a human being.

You know, I've said
this a few times;

It's always really good

if you leave this planet being

the most beloved
person on this planet.

And that's what all of
us should be tilting

towards if we can.

He did, and he was,

and I'm interested
in who that is.

I'm interested in
it, warts and all.

But at the end of the day,

it's about love.

That's what he understood.

And there are people who
spend a long time trying

to get at that,

he got at it.

He understood it.

And I'm so happy
that Rasheda is here

because she carries not only

whatever genetics,
the bloodline,

but she also carries this
sense of love and spirit.

And having Rasheda
close to me is like

he's still here in a way.

- Absolutely.

So Rasheda, I was struck
as I watched the film,

and as I thought
about our world today,

how we still...

Islam has not truly been
accepted in America.

I was struck by the fact that

so many people mispronounced

the word "Muslim" in the movie,

or mispronounce the
word "Islam," you know?

And so, what is it
that you might hope

or think that America can learn

about your father
and his relationship

to his faith from this film?

- Thank you so much.

First of all, I wanna
thank you so much, Ken

for those beautiful words.

And thank you, Jesse.

I think my dad,

he led by example.

So he was a great role model,

not just for us

but for the whole world,

because I think
when my dad did was

he wanted to urge us to be

the best version of ourselves

and to push ourselves
to become better

than who we think we are.

So he adopted this
faith and he was...

It was full circle.

He really was
passionate about joining

the Nation of Islam,

and it gave him so much
courage and bravery

at a time where his people
were being lynched and killed,

and segregation was going on,

and there was so much
hate against our people.

He felt that this
religion was the one

that was going to
give him the power

to believe in himself
and his people.

And so, he did all that
thinking of his people.

His people were always
something that he had in mind

whenever he did things

because anything he
did, he empowered them.

And so, as the religion evolved,

he became even more
spiritual as a man

because this religion,
Islam made him not only

strong mentally,

but it gave him the
courage to do things

that I don't think he normally
would have been able to do

if he didn't have his
religion backing him up,

so to speak.

So he felt like....

And there are clips in this film

that I've never seen before,

and I've seen probably
thousands in my life.

I mean, I've just over and over.

But there were really
interesting clips

and I know most of you
have already seen the clip

where he says I'll face gunfire

without denouncing my
faith and my religion.

So if we can all
adopt his passion

and his love for
faith and in God,

or some higher power,

I think we'll all already
be that much closer

to getting what
we're all seeking,

and Ken said it so well,

and that's love.

I think that's what
makes the world go round.

My dad adopted a religion

that was not socially accepted.

It's still not.

So I think our
passion to be able

to become role models for those

who still have Islamophobia
on their minds,

we have to remember
that people are looking

at us as Muslim all the time,

trying to find out,

when are we going
to make a mistake?

And when are we going
to commit a crime?

So I think my dad felt
his responsibility

as a Muslim was to become

a role model for
people who are Muslim,

but not only that,

but for people who are
trying to find themselves,

trying to find their faith,

and I think he did a
very good job of that.

He wasn't perfect,
as we know that.

(indistinct) humanize my dad.

In this film, he wasn't perfect.

He was human, just
like all of us.

- Jesse, you're muted.

- Thank you.

Those contradictions
are fascinating.

How a man can
emanate so much love

and still do what he did to some

of these people in the ring is

one of the most
interesting journeys

that there is in the field.

Howard, I wanted to ask you,

there can never be another Ali

because of who he
was and what he did

at the time that he did it,

in the tumultuous 1960s,

when black people, as
a whole, in America,

were taking control
of their destiny.

And so, we've just,
in 2020, came through

another tumultuous
and incredibly moving

and...

Emotional upheaval and a
racial reckoning, awakening,

something along those lines.

We're still processing
what it was.

Ali doing what he
did when he did it...

And now, it's fashionable

for athletes to be
"aware" or "activists"

or all this kind of stuff.

And a lot of these young
athletes who probably do care

about racial justice
don't know Ali's story.

So what lessons do you think Ali

and what he did,

today's athletes
should really take

and learn from and use

as they try to use
their platforms

as he used his?

- Yeah, well for me,

I just feel like
the biggest thing,

when I think about Muhammad,

I always think about risk.

And risk not to himself,

but the type of risk that
is very much prevalent today

when it comes to
professional athletes,

and that is you are
asked to make a deal

when you're a pro athlete.

And that deal is to
really separate yourself

from your own people.

You're constantly being asked

not to advocate
for black people.

You're constantly
asked to hang out

with a different crowd

or you know that in the culture,

being what it is today,

simply advocating for or
supporting black people is

a political act.

You know that because
the minute somebody says

something that's in
support of black people,

it becomes a news story.

Why is it so controversial?

Why is this such a risk?

Why is it such a...

Why are you putting
your entire career

in jeopardy simply by saying,

"I support the
people of Ferguson or
Baltimore or whatever"?

So I think that's
one of the things

that needs to be done,

that maybe athletes have a
great shot of doing right now,

which is demystifying the idea

of supporting black
people, right?

I mean, why is this
the defining thing

that can threaten
your livelihood?

And so, I think that's one
of the biggest things for me

when I think about
athletes today.

I think the secondary thing is

the idea of the comparison.

You're not going to compare
yourself to this man

and it's not because
he was so great,

even though he was;

the real reason is is
because what he did

and what Jackie Robinson did,

and what so many before us did,

made it unnecessary for you

to duplicate what he did.

And I think that's the road,

when you think about
the Colin Kaepernicks,

when you think
about LeBron James,

and you think about
Serena Williams,

or whoever else is
out there today,

doing their thing,

their paths are just
different from his.

And you don't want his path.

You do not want
the entire weight

of the federal government

and its people to
come down on you.

You don't want what
he went through.

And if you have to go through

what he went through,

that says so much more about

what little progress
this country has made

than it would say about him.

- Man, thank you.

That's so accurate.

So Ken, I'd like you to setup

this next clip that
we're going to watch,

and not to step
on your toes here

but it was one of the
most meaningful moments

of the film for me.

And really, I was sort
of vaguely aware of it,

as much as I've read
and seen about Ali,

but it packs such an
emotional wallop for me.

So what does this next clip
that we're about to see?

- Well, thank you.

Two of our secret weapons
in the film are here

with us this evening,
Howard and Rasheda,

and they're wonderful.

One of the others is a
man named Michael Bentt,

who's a heavyweight fighter

who helps interpret mid fights.

He's mainly, almost
his entire presence,

is within the fights to help us

perhaps some of us who
don't understand it

and find it just brutal,

understand what it's about.

So this is 1966.

He's been the champ
for two years.

He's announced when he
won the championship

that he is a Muslim.

It's caused him
lots of problems.

He's had his license revoked

in some places in response.

He's now said he is not
going to be inducted

into the United States Army,

and he's having a hard
time finding fights.

He has to go to Canada,

he goes to Europe,

and then he comes back
and he has a fight.

And that's basically what
we're going to show you,

is this fight.

So please roll the clip.

- [Narrator] After
four fights abroad,

Ali's promoters
had finally managed

to secure an American venue;

The Astrodome in Houston, Texas.

A brand new and
first-of-its-kind domed stadium,

dubbed "The Eighth
Wonder of The World."

Ali had agreed to fight
Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams,

an army veteran who
had once been shot

by a police officer

during a drunk driving arrest.

Williams had knocked out
51 of his 71 opponents.

It would be the largest audience

for an indoor boxing
match in history.

- I think his masterpiece
is with Cleveland Williams.

That's Picasso, right?

That's Baryshnikov, right?

That's Miles Davis.

He throws like a
10-punch combination,

he's going back with his man.

Now look,

I don't know how to define that.

I'm not a scientist,

but like that kind of artistry
will never be seen again.

When he did that,

it looked effortless,

and it looked like he came
out of the womb doing that.

- [Narrator]
Introducing a new move

he dubbed "The Ali Shuffle,"

he peppered Williams
with jab after jab,

as the Big Cat struggled

to land a single punch.

Ali floored his
challenger three times

in the second round.

"It was a two-fisted assault

"of vicious effectiveness,"

wrote frequent
critic, Arthur Daley,

who declared that
Ali had won over

all the doubters.

A minute into the third round,

the referee ended the fight.

(crowd cheering)

- [Announcer] (indistinct)

- Wow, wow.

I mean, so aside from the
physical display there,

I'm going to give them
a little more context

for the audience for this clip.

In the lead up to this fight,

Ali had recently embraced
the Nation of Islam

and had changed his
name to Muhammad Ali,

and this boxer refused
to call him by his name.

And throughout the whole fight,

Ali is tagging him,
and tagging him,

and saying, "What's my name?

"What's my name?"

I found it rather resonant
the victim there had a perm

in his hair,

which is a sign of really
of us being brainwashed

to want to be more
like white people.

And then another
really subtle thing

in that clip was

after they called the fight

and Ali went back to his corner,

he turned over his shoulder

and gave this man a look of
utter domination and contempt.

And it was just like...

It gave me chills to see it.

So, "Oh, you're not going to
use my name, Muhammad Ali?

"You're going to call me Clay?

"Boom, I'm punching
in your face.

"You can't do anything about it.

"Now, say my name."

I mean, it was just
so powerful to me.

And it gets us to
the Nation of Islam,

which was a driving force,

an overriding presence
in Ali's life,

and really depicted
in great detail,

and historically
accurate detail,

painful detail, in this film.

And there's a lot
about the Nation

that is problematic.

The historian, Gerald
Early calls it a cult.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar says
it's not true Islam.

And yet, it helped to give us

the great mindset

and everything of Muhammad Ali.

And I did not know, Ken,
that Elijah Muhammad,

the leader of the
Nation of Islam,

gave him that name.

Everyone else was
"Something X" or "This X."

So Howard, I would
like to ask you,

what would Ali have been

without the Nation of Islam?

Specifically, that
brand of black Muslim?

What would Muhammad
Ali have been?

- Well, I think that's
a great question,

but I would always step back

when I think about
Muhammad and I would ask,

"What would he be
without Malcolm X?"

I mean, that's the
first connection.

And to so many people,

it was...

To so many black people,

it was an articulation.

It was an attempt
to recognize that

something's not right here,

in terms of what
I'm being taught.

There has to be a counter

to what I'm being taught

because what I know in front
of me is not what I feel.

I remember when I
was in high school,

my mother gave me a copy...

I didn't even know she had it.

She has a first edition copy

of "The Autobiography
of Malcolm X."

And I was like, "Where
did this come from?"

It was like in the living room

and she gave it to me.

And when you open it up, she...

My mother as a 17 year old;

all of these sentences
are underlined,

underlined, underlined,

and that's what I think about
when you think about Muhammad.

There's the articulation.

"I get you," right?

"I understand you, I feel you.

"This is exactly what I see."

And I think that when
you think about...

You look at the clip
with Cleveland Williams;

here's a guy whose
hair is comped

and he's talking about respect.

And so, what the Nation did

for so many black people
was to give us an outlet

to say what you're feeling
is not preposterous,

and what you're feeling is real,

and we're going
to try to give you

some form of roadmap to what
we think your true self is,

to what you know
your true self is.

Because even if it's not this,

you know it's not what
you're actually living

in the United States.

- I think Howard's right.

The courage part of
it is so interesting,

that you said earlier.

And while the Nation
of Islam was a kind of

classically American
hybrid of stuff

and had lots of
corruption at its core,

it did offer an
alternative narrative

against the old slave narrative,

one of the ones,

and it was liberating
for this young man

and he was able to transform it.

And where Malcolm X, who
was excluded from it,

was headed both politically
and then spiritually is

where Muhammad Ali also got to.

And Rasheda says
this in the film,

the fighting is just one aspect.

He just happened
to be doing that.

He happens to be
greatest athlete.

But it's amazing
that this is about,

as he says over and
over again, freedom,

and the way he found
the path to freedom was

by accepting this new narrative,

this new story of oneself

and one's possibilities

that the Nation
of Islam offered.

- Yeah.

Rasheda, what are
your perspectives

on the Nation of Islam,

both as a presence
in your father's life

and the criticisms that
have been leveled against it

in the film and elsewhere?

- The Nation of Islam
is not true Islam.

Of course, my dad
realized that later,

when he adopted orthodox Islam.

But at the time,

it was important because it
really allowed my dad to face

all of the issues that
was going on in his life.

Remember, he grew
up in Louisville,

so that's the Jim Crow south.

So segregation was
worse in the South

than anywhere else.

He felt, in a sense,

like what he did for
the United States,

winning a gold medal,
didn't mean anything.

So the Nation was very
important for him at that time

because it allowed him to face

what was going on
in his own hometown,

as well as the rest
of the world, head on.

So the Nation was important,

even though it isn't true Islam.

The ideals was important

because it really
made daddy understand

the importance of being...

And Malcolm mentioned that too,

is that if you can
brainwash someone

to hate themselves,

that's the worst
crime you can do.

And that's what my
dad was really trying

to allow people to realize,

is that as he got more and
more recognition and fame,

he used that to help
his people get out

of the situation
that they were in.

And so, he did that by saying,

"I'm beautiful, I'm great.

"I'm so pretty."

That's something that
African-Americans...

It seems like a
small thing to do,

but for an
African-American to say

on national TV, "I'm
so pretty, I'm great,"

that was unheard of back then.

And so, he even got
a lot of backlash

from African-Americans
who were also athletes

and were saying,
"just be quiet."

So my dad was
really, in a sense,

telling our people "Wake up.

"We can be beautiful.

"We can be proud

"and we can get what we want."

So that was the importance
of my dad and the Nation.

- Yeah, so much of
this is liberation.

When you think about the
broad definition of that word,

it's liberation.

When you're black, you're
taught that you're ugly.

When you think about it,

when you grow up,

and we all know it, right?

Growing up, even growing
up around the way,

when black people make
fun of each other,

our humor is based in
making fun of how you look.

Always making fun
of how you look.

And he was one of the people...

Where do you think "black
is beautiful" comes from?

It was the counter
to this, to say,

"Look, there's
another way here."

And our humor is rooted in it.

When you look around,

you walk into a store

and you look at
all the magazines,

who's on the cover?

You're not on the cover.

These standards of
beauty, they're not you.

Everything about it
is not you, right?

You're taught completely
to dislike yourself.

And so, as much as
the Nation liberated

a lot of black people

in terms of trying
to find a pathway

that eventually,
in Kareem's case,

in Malcolm's case,
in Muhammad's case,

got them to Orthodox Islam,

it also gave you a
pathway to pull yourself

out of this idea that

"I'm not worthy in
the white world,"

that it gave you
something to look at

that you could be proud of.

And that's one of
the things that

when we looked at Muhammad,

that was the thing
that he gave everybody.

He made you feel like

you are as beautiful as he was.

- Unless your name
was Joe Louis.

Unless--
- and Joe Frazier.

I was gonna say--

(speaking over each other)

- What's really
ironic about that is

that all the things
that Muhammad gave us,

he used against Joe Frazier.

And the cruelty,

He knew what he was
doing with Frazier.

I mean, we all knew
it and you watch this.

And over time, as you get older,

especially the first fight,

it was essentially
two black men pitted

against each other,

but one was supposedly
representing "White America,"

and that was Frazier,

and he's from North Philly.

So the psychological
battle between those two

and the cruelty,

I hate to say it because
Muhammad was everything to me,

but the psychological cruelty

on someone that he knew was not

at his intellectual level as
well sold a lot of tickets,

but caused a lot
of pain as well.

Those fights were real.

And when you watch those fights,

and which is why
I can keep talking

about this forever, Ken,

you watch those fights,

you can feel black
America right there.

You feel all of it.

I mean, right in your face,

it's just so powerful.

I watch Ali fights just for
fun, 10, 20 times a year.

Let's just go...

Even the second fight,
I'll watch that one too.

- Yeah, and he also
used that tactic,

these inter-black conflicts
against George Foreman

and set himself up
as the black man.

He always set himself
up as the black man

and would diminish these others,

his opponents' blackness,

or exaggerate their blackness
in order to disrespect them

and things like that,

and it was...

And at the end of the film,

he says that he regretted it.

And so, he knew he was wrong.

Ken, do you think
that this is...

And you're very faithful
to telling the story

and not putting your
finger on the scale,

your thumb on the scale,

one way or another.

But one thing that really
struck me was how young he was

when he developed his identity,

and young men are
headstrong and brash,

and plunge forward
without considering

the full ramifications
of their actions.

Do you think that
these cruelties

that he perpetrated on his
opponents were strategic,

come from avarice,

trying to make more
money, fame, attention,

some of the above?

How would you analyze that?

- It's a good question.

It was important for
us to show everything.

I think we live in an
unfortunate culture

where everything is on
or off, good or bad,

and no life is like that.

And our notions of
heroism are so limited.

We think a hero is perfect

and lament that we're in
an age where no heroes,

but in fact, heroism is
about the negotiation,

even the war, between
a person's strengths

and their weaknesses.

This was not a good side.

Todd Boyd says in the film,

"He's using his his
power there for evil

"and not for good."

But most of the
time, it's for good,

and it's complicated.

It is strategic

and yet, I think
he doesn't know.

But let's, remember when
you bring up the young man

this is a person who,
very early in life,

understood that he
had some mission,

he had some purpose.

You don't start boxing
for a few months

and call yourself "The Greatest"

when no one even thinks
that you are that,

and then make yourself that,

and keep yourself
that over time,

and bring a larger
message of love.

So, to me, this is a
classic hero's journey.

This is a...

There are lots of
dragons to slay

and as we know,

we're our own worst enemies.

He was his own worst
enemy in lots of ways,

as we are, all four of us,

our own worst enemies,

and I think that was an
important part to share.

And I was so happy that
this beautiful woman here

who carries the spirit
of her father understood

that you couldn't tell it

with just only the icing on it.

It had to have complexity
and depth, as he did

because you can't
then emerge from it

without appreciating
what he went through.

The kind of sacrifices,

the risks, as Howard said,

that he took,
they're unbelievable.

And when something
turned out good for him,

legally, for example,

people say, "Well, is
this restore your faith?"

And he just turns around,

as if he was talking today,

and he said, "Somebody's
going to get killed by a cop,

"someone's going to
get beat up by a cop.

"This is it.

"This was a good decision for me

"but it doesn't end it."

And so, there was
always a purpose.

He loses to Frazier
after belittling him

and saying he's going to win

with all the confidence,

drove white America crazy.

A lot of people were for Frazier

just to shut him up,

and Frazier, in a way, did,

and his post-fight response

about his
responsibility to people

to show that life
will bring this...

You'll lose someone you love,

you'll lose a job,

you'll lose a title,

and you need to get back up,

it can't defeat you.

You cannot understand.

It's the parallel of

what Howard was saying
about "beautiful."

The parallel to that was a
kind of empowering spirit,

that this world will throw you

a lot of difficult things

and I will show you,

you can get through this.

So he is as
magnificent in defeat

as he is in victory.

And we saw the clip
where it's Baryshnikov.

it's Miles Davis, it's Picasso.

And that fight with Cleveland
Williams is in it...

Jesse, just to set you right,

that is not the fight,
which is "what's my name?

It's another fight
that's coming up

in that that episode,

in which he has been
consciously belittled.

I think the important thing

about Cleveland "Big
Cat" Williams is

that he's shot by the police.

This stuff has been going on

well before Rodney King,

well before Muhammad Ali,

well before Emmett till,

well before Jack Johnson,

well before anything.

It's a 402-year old disease,

and it's a virus that's
infected our story,

and Muhammad Ali intersects
with that in powerful ways.

- Yeah, I wanted to
throw one quick thing

out there to that too, Ken,

when we talk about
the liberation of this

and what Muhammad was saying;

It's also, he was
liberating athletes

because to Jesse's point,

ballplayers were
supposed to be grateful.

Ballplayers, the first
thing about a ballplayer,

you call the owner
of the team "Mister."

They still do it today.

You win a game and
you say, "Thank you,"

and you're deferential
to the reporters,

you're deferential to the fans,

you're deferential to everybody.

And he was the
first guy out there

who really took control
of his own narrative

and understood that "no,
no, no, I'm the show.

"You're coming here to see me.

"And what that does is
that gives me power."

And Henry Aaron was
very similar to that,

where he realized that,

"If I'm here, you
have to listen to me."

And the number of black
athletes at that time

who were frightened because
of what he was doing

in terms of that liberation...

There was another
generation who said,

"Yeah, I want to
be just like him."

- Rasheda, what were the
most emotional moments

of this film for you?

- Well, I cried throughout.

There was some....

Well, most...

There were just tears of joy

because it was
great to see my dad.

And then, the times
where he was...

There was a part in the clip
where he was kissing me,

or my twin...

I have a twin.

So I look and I'm like,

"I'm not sure if
that's me or Jameela.

"I'm not sure."

But he was kissing him
one of us, me or my twin,

and he was like, "Don't
you know your father's...

"Do you know your
daddy's the greatest?

"Do you know your
daddy's the greatest?"

My whole face, I just...

I never saw that clip before.

And for daddy to be like,

"Did you know your
father's the greatest?

"He's the greatest
all the time."

I just started crying.
- It's a home movie for you.

- It was like a home movie.

It was like...

'Cause I've never
seen that before

and I was like, "Oh my
God, I've never seen that.

"That's me!"

And it was a time where
I didn't really remember

because most of my time

I remember my dad
were Parkinson's.

Because we grew up with
the divorce and everything,

we didn't grow up with
seeing my dad every day.

So to see him
interacting with us

and with the wagons in
Deer Lake, Pennsylvania,

I just got some
really great memories

that just started to
rush through my head

because they were good
times for us, as kids,

because we were
with our parents.

And we were on this
great training camp,

and we watched our dad train,

and it was just a
fun time for us.

But for us, he wasn't famous,

he was just our dad

who just took us on pony rides

and was just being a dad.

- This is what we wanted to do.

The whole film starts
with a very long sequence

about stealing a
bite of cornflakes.

There's not a
parent in the world

that doesn't know
what that kidding is

with a toddler,

and it was our way of saying,

"Okay, okay, we'll
get to the boxing.

"Okay, we'll get
to the conflict.

"We'll get to this.

"But this is a person who
loves other human beings,

"and he particularly
loves his family,

"and he particularly
loves his girls."

And it was important
to move that

from its placement way
up in episode three

and move it back to the
very beginning of the film,

and say...

Let's just start
with something like,

"Look over there, I'm going
to steal your corn flakes."

- Good call there, Ken.
- Great call.

It was really beautiful opening.

I just immediately
started crying as soon

as I saw Miriam and my
dad just playing around.

I never saw that either.

Again, we're seeing
footage I've never seen

and it's really taken me back.

It's good memories.

- Our fourth producer,
Stephanie Jenkins,

and the team of people
who look for stuff;

the reason why these films take
four, five, six, seven years

to make is because we want to do

the deepest possible
dive, possible

and make sure that it's
not an additive process,

but it's subtractive.

We collect hundreds of hours

and then say,
"Okay, we love that,

"but it just doesn't fit."

And the clip we're going
to show right now, Jesse,

if I can segue into that

so we don't run out of any time,

is not too much
after the other clip

but he's refused induction,

he's delayed some stuff by
changing his draft board

from Kentucky to Texas,

but he's...

When he's finally inducted,

he refuses induction

and he is put on trial.

And so, this clip is
really self-explanatory

and we've sort of
hinted at it before,

but it may be a good way

to finally get at the man.

This human being, Muhammad Ali.

So could you roll the last clip?

- [Narrator] Two weeks later,

an all-white Houston
jury found Ali guilty

of refusing the draft.

The judge, ignoring the
more lenient recommendation

of the prosecutor,

sentenced him to the maximum;

five years in prison
and a $10,000 fine.

And he would have to
surrender his passport.

Ali's lawyers immediately
filed an appeal,

prepared to go all the way to

the Supreme Court, if necessary.

A process that could take years.

Ali remained free,
but without his title

or a license to box.

He fully expected that he would

one day go to jail
for his beliefs.

- We, who are followers of
the Honorable Elijah Muhammad

in the religion of Islam,

we believe in obeying
the laws of the land.

We are taught to obey
the laws of the land

as long as it don't conflict

with our religious beliefs.

- [Reporter] Will you
go into service as such?

- This would be a 1,000%
against the teachings

of the Honorable
Elijah Muhammad,

the religion of Islam,

and the Holy Quran, the holy
book that we believe in.

This would be all be denouncing

and defying everything
that I stand for.

- [Reporter] This
would mean, of course,

that you stand the
chance of going to jail

as a result of not
going into service.

- Well, whatever the punishment,

whatever the persecution is

for standing up of
my religious beliefs,

even if it means facing
machine gun fire that day,

I will face it before
denouncing Elijah Muhammad

and the religion of Islam.

I'm ready to die.

- When I think about him saying,

"If they want to put maybe
for a firing squad tomorrow,

"I'm ready to die before
I abandon my religion."

That's it.

You can't teach
that kind of thing

in lectures and books.

That kind of thing
has to be modeled.

And models turn into traditions,

and traditions provide people

with the mechanical memory
to do the right thing.

That's what Muhammad Ali
represented in that moment.

I mean, anybody now faced
with a major decision

in which the right way is clear

and the wrong way is clear,

but the consequences are dire,

now they have a model that
they can fall back on,

psychologically,
emotionally, spiritually;

That's what Muhammad Ali
represented in that moment

and that, to me,

that moment will
live on forever.

- Wow.

I love that part of the film.

Howard, you've
written so evocatively

about the heritage,

which is the title
of one of your books,

of black athletes and activism.

Can you explain
today's athletes,

whether they know it or not,

what are some of the examples

of how they're
following that model

that Ali set?

- Well, they are
part of a lineage

and I think that people...

I think we hear it.

I don't think we know it

because you don't really know it

until you're faced with it.

I think that one of the mistakes

that I see, that I don't
love, today is this idea

that you are in the
heritage of Muhammad Ali

by owning a team,

or by making money,

or being part of an empire.

It's exactly the
opposite of that.

He's exactly the opposite

of all of these
things that we have.

We have conflated athlete
activism with commerce.

And so, to me,

what I find in...

What I find appealing to
what's happening today is

the citizenship element
of the athletes.

When you see
athletes doing things

that allow them to
speak for other people,

I find that to be compelling.

I always remind myself
when we go through this,

whether we're talking
about Colin Kaepernick

or we're talking
about LeBron James

or whomever else,

the level of risk is
never going to be the same

and it shouldn't be.

And that I feel like
we compare people

to Muhammad way too easily

because it's incongruous to us

to think about having a
government come after you.

I think very few people have

any idea of what that means.

And when I say the
government coming after you,

I'm talking about the citizens,

not just the prison, being
threatened with prison,

but I'm thinking the number

of conversations that
people were having

that were in absolute support

of this man going
to prison or worse.

And so, I'm very, very wary

of ever comparing
anybody to Muhammad.

- And the judge is
given the chance,

the prosecutor's had asked for
a much more lenient sentence,

he sentenced him to the maximum.

We cut to a newspaper,

years after he's
changed his name,

they're still calling him Clay.

We don't know what
he was up against.

I mean, that's
one of the reasons

why we wanted to make the film,

is to describe that thing

and I think, as I
said before, Howard,

I think you really hit
the nail on the head,

that this risk is
a huge, huge part

of the story,

that sometimes we just
don't put it together.

It's sitting there
right in front of us.

This is a person who
said he would risk

a firing squad.

I mean, that's something.

- And it sounds hyperbolic

but one of the things that
I always remind people is

if you really want to compare

anybody to Muhammad,

in terms of some of these risks,

it has to be someone like
Tommy Smith or John Carlos;

they lost their careers.

And even someone like...

And this is why I don't
like the comparison game

because it makes it seem like
you're criticizing someone.

You're not, you're putting
it into the proper context.

Is that at no point

in his career has LeBron James

ever been threatened
with his live...

And his livelihood has
never been threatened

by anything he's ever
said in his career.

He's that protected,

and that's a good thing, right?

You don't have to be destitute

in order to be a good person

or a good citizen, or
do the right thing.

And the fact that they have
that insulation is great,

but that does separate
you from Muhammad,

which is also a great thing.

You don't want to
be in that category.

He did this for us.

We don't need any others

to keep doing this for us.

And so, I always feel
when you come back

to what he went through

and you see it in the film,

especially '67 to '70-'71,

and even beyond,

even by the time you get to '74,

it's unprecedented what you saw

because I honestly believe
that most athletes,

most people would have
found some way to compromise

and not go as far as he went.

He did not compromise at all

and still found his way back.

Most players who do,

most people who do what he did,

they get broken,

and he didn't get broken.

He was unbroken.

- He absolutely was.

And one of the
comments that you made

in the film, Howard,

that I found really resonant was

that the Rumble in The Jungle,

him coming back and
beating Foreman,

he was made whole.

He was made whole,
and then that,

in terms of his story
and what it meant,

was so rewarding.

(speaking over each other)

- I was going to say, Jesse,

when we think about
these stories,

even Jackie, even
Jackie Robinson,

at some point, realized what
had been taken from him.

Kurt Flood lost his career.

Colin Kaepernick
lost his career.

Smith and Carlos
lost their careers.

Everybody who talks, they
find a way to break you.

And he had to win that fight,

that's why Zaire is
my favorite fight.

Zaire the resilient
spirit of resistance.

It is everything.

And think about...

Are we even watching this film

if he loses that fight?

Is there a film if he lo...

It's a different film.

But the story.

Most of us lose when
they come after you.

- Yeah, yeah.

So he was made
whole, absolutely.

I agree with you.

And then, at the
end of the film,

we see him in pieces.

And the pieces of him that
that made him so compelling,

his voice, his movement,

are what's robbed from him.

And the film even
quotes Ali as saying,

"This may be my punishment
for the wrongs that I've done

"and the way I treated
these opponents

"or the infidelities that I had

"in my relationships
and things like that."

So what part of the Ali story

and the meaning of his story
is filled by his condition

at the end of his life?

And maybe, Rasheda,
I'll start with you

since you interacted
with him personally

and had to see
him in this state.

How does that part
of it fit into

the overall message of his life?

- Well, I mentioned after I saw

all the clips, the
whole entire series,

I mentioned to Ken,
and Sarah Burns,

that it was really
beautiful to watch my dad,

the good and the bad.

He was young,
changing the world.

You're going to make mistakes.

But it's beautiful a man evolve

into a better man.

He's always evolving
into a better man.

He's not the same
person he is now.

His convictions are the same

but his choices aren't the same.

So it's beautiful to watch how
my dad has come full circle,

and kind of had regrets
with the Malcolm X

and Frazier and stuff.

He was human.

And when Parkinson's
became a part of his life,

my dad was devastated,

and I think he disappeared
from the media for a while

because he was
trying to figure out,

wrap his brain around,

what is this condition
that is stopping me

from being the person I was?

Because my dad's biggest
asset was his mouth.

And so, then you
get this condition

that's muting him

and now, he's barely some...

In some clips you'll see,

he's barely whispering.

So that was his strength.

And so, my dad had to
kind of really figure out,

"What am I going to do with this

"now new condition?"

But then, you see in 1996,

where he's lighting the
torch for the Olympics,

he comes out of the
dark and into the light

and shows people,

it's very brave move,

that I could have Parkinson's,

I can light this torch
and I can still be great.

But he's not doing
it for just himself,

he's doing it for other people

with neurocognitive diseases.

So that was the brave part,

is that he's letting
other people know

that this does not
define who you are.

This is what you have,

this has not
defined who you are.

You can still be great
and have this condition.

So that was what was beautiful,

to watch him evolving,

even with this condition

that, in some cases,

would have broke
most people down.

But we've got to remember

my dad was always a fighter.

So throughout his entire life,

he used his core principles,

including his faith,

to get through a lot of
the trials and tribulations

that he faced.

I don't think any other
person had ever faced so many

all in one lifetime.

So it's really
wonderful to see that

even with Parkinson's,

he's still going out and doing

what he loves best,

and that's helping people.

And it's really
inspiring and motivating,

and it brought tears
to my eyes, Ken,

I have to tell you that,

because when you're
watching daddy struggling,

walking and talking,

and it's hard to
do certain things

in the late stages,

he's still helping people

and I think that's
the overall message.

I think my dad wanted all of us,

no matter what happens
to you in your life,

service to others
is the rent you pay

for your room in heaven.

- Yeah.

Howard, what do you think
about this him being made whole

in the Rumble in The Jungle,

and then being broken
down toward the end?

- Well, I always
felt there was...

It's very poignant.

It's very painful.

And he's a professional,

and this is what you know.

This is...

We always talk about
"the athlete's journey,"

and this is the
athlete's journey.

And he was going to go until
he couldn't go anymore.

There's always a piece
of you that believes

that if I just make
this adjustment,

I can win this fight

or if I just do this, like...

And boxing is the
cruelest lesson

because there's only one
way to go out in boxing

if you're not gonna...

At some point,
you're going to lose.

And for me, it wasn't...

The Zaire fight
was the pinnacle.

The Larry Holmes fight
and the Berbick fight,

those are the ones
where it was like...

Especially Berbick, it's like...

You didn't want to see it.

It's hard.

It's almost like look
at a family member

'cause you love
Muhammad so much.

And I always felt like
when you watched the end...

'Cause I remember, I was a kid.

I was in elementary
and middle school

when he was coming to the end.

You knew how much you love him

'cause you didn't
want to see him fight,

you didn't want him
to go back out there.

And it's the fight,

this is what it is when
you're at that level.

There's only one way.

Very few people recognize,

"I'm going to go without
being told to leave."

Most athletes get told to leave.

- We're coming to the end,

but we do have some
audience questions.

And Ken, I'd like to
throw this one at you

from Brandon in Washington.

And he asked, "What was
different from making this film

"from making his favorite
documentary, "Baseball"?"

And I'll sort of
layer into that.

We love all of our children

but we love all of
them differently,

so at this point in your career,

what is special to you

about this particular
film compared

to "Baseball" on all
of your other children?

- You're muted, Ken.

- Sorry.

It's a good question.

I think that for us,

the process is always the same.

It's really just a lot of
discipline and hard work.

I mean, it's not akin to
preparing for a fight,

and then each
fight is different.

Each one of these
films is different.

And Howard has been
around enough of our films

to know that there's
a kind of consistency

to the discipline.

I mean, we put a name
on it, "Muhammad Ali,"

and it comes out in
September and that's it

but we're working
everyday on other films

and even films that are over
with have a life of their own.

I think what I said
at the beginning is

what is so special about this,

is that we have
necessarily dealt

in the films, over
the last 40 years,

with extraordinary human beings.

I don't know anyone more
extraordinary than him

with all the flaws,

with all the glory,

and that I love this
underlying message of love.

And in some ways,
there's a kind of poetry

to being silenced by Parkinson's

for this big mouth of a guy.

Not to shut him up, as
so many people wanted do,

but to let him go in

and make his spirit
even brighter.

It's an amazing Testament.

And let us also say
that we spend too much

of our time relegating
African-American
history to February,

our shortest and coldest month.

It's at the center
of our identity

and we don't want
to deal with that.

We just don't want
to deal with that,

and that's all that you can do.

You cannot scratch the surface

of American history
without coming into contact

with this essential
contradiction.

And then, the extraordinary gift

that African-Americans
in the face of

that hypocrisy and
contradiction have

nevertheless bestowed
on us lessons,

examples, models, as
as Sherman would say,

music,

performance,

excellence.

All of these gifts are
not recorded equally.

There's nobody bigger than him.

- Thank you.

Thank you so much for that.

And thank you for bringing

up the importance
of black history

in history overall.

And I'm glad that your
film is premiering.

It's September 19th on PBS.

And here at The Undefeated,

we believe in black
history always,

every month of the year.

So congratulations on this film.

It's a monumental achievement.

Thank you, Ken.

Thank you, Rasheda.

Thank you, Howard.

And to our audience,
thank you for joining us.

Please tune in for more
of these conversations

and the film itself,

which premieres on
September 19th on PBS.