- [Narrator] He was
bigger than boxing.
- [Ali] I am the greatest!
- [Narrator] He was
larger than life.
- His magnetism
just was amazing.
Who is this guy?
- He was a revolutionary.
He was a groundbreaker.
- Ain't nobody gon' stop me!
- [Narrator] Ken Burns
captures an intimate story
of victory, defeat
and determination.
- The price of
freedom comes high.
I have paid but I am free.
- [Narrator] Muhammad Ali.
Tune in or stream.
Starts Sunday, September
19th at 8/7 Central,
only on PBS.
- Good evening
and welcome to the first event
in our discussion series,
"Conversations on
Muhammad Ali presented
"by PBS and ESPN's
The Undefeated."
I'm Sylvia Bugg, Chief
Programming Executive at PBS.
For more than 50 years,
PBS has been proud to serve
as America's home
for documentaries;
providing our audiences with
impactful and inspiring films
that cover a wide range of
topics and perspectives.
This September, PBS is delighted
to present the latest
from Ken Burns,
Sarah Burns, David
McMahon, and their team;
a four-part documentary
series on the global icon,
Muhammad Ali.
This series take us
deep into the life
of one of the most
indelible figures
of the 20th century,
showing us the true
nature of the man
who called himself
"The Greatest"
and proved it.
Today's discussion, simply
titled "Ali: The Man,"
will explore the
humanity of Muhammad Ali
as a loving father,
an advocate for peace,
and an inspirational
voice of pride
and self-affirmation
in the black community.
In just a few moments,
we'll show you the
introduction to the film.
Then, senior writer for The
Undefeated, Jesse Washington,
will moderate a conversation
with co-director Ken Burns,
Muhammad Ali's
daughter, Rasheda Ali,
and author and sports
columnist, Howard Bryant.
Thank you for joining
us this evening
and please enjoy this
evening's discussion.
And don't forget to tune in
to the premiere
of "Muhammad Ali"
on September 19th at 8:00
PM Eastern Time on PBS
- Can I have some
of your corn flakes?
Oh, I don't want none.
I won't take none,
I won't take any.
I won't eat any if
you don't want me to.
Oh, look at the pretty horsey!
Is that a white horse?
See?
Stand up, look over there.
Stand up, you gotta
stand up (indistinct).
(indistinct)
What?
(crowd cheering)
- My earliest memories
that I can think of
as a child with my father
are walking through airports
and being in crowds,
and feeling the vibrations
of people's clapping
and shouts in my chest.
And just looking at my dad,
like "Who is this person?"
And it was all the
time, anywhere we went.
"You're the greatest,
we love you!"
And the clapping and "Muhammad!"
- Ali Bomaye!
Ali Bomaye!
- [Crowd] Ali!
Bomaye!
Ali!
Bomaye!
- We now think of Muhammad Ali
as this vulnerable guy,
lighting the torch in Atlanta
and everybody on
the globe loves him.
Black people like him,
white people.
He's a universal hero,
almost in a religious
way, like the Buddha.
But when he was in the
midst of his career,
and not just in the early bit,
he was incredibly divisive.
- Boo, yell, scream,
throw peanuts,
but whatever you do,
pay to get in.
- People hated him,
whether it was
along racial lines,
class lines, Vietnam lines,
political lines,
religious lines,
or they just couldn't stand him.
And people, of course,
had the opposite
and this was, "I loved him!
"Loved him!"
(upbeat music)
But you had an opinion
about him.
- (indistinct)
Look how pretty I am.
The long, trimmed legs,
and the beautiful arms,
and a pretty nose and mouth.
I know I'm a pretty man.
I know I'm pretty.
You don't have to
tell me I'm pretty.
- [Ali V.O] I'm
cocky, I'm proud.
- You never talk about
who gon' stop me,
'case ain't nobody
gonna stop me!
- I say what I wanted to say!
It ain't no more big
niggas talking like this.
- He was a pioneer.
He was a revolutionary.
He was a ground breaker.
A guy known simply
as "The Greatest."
- I am the greatest!
- [Ali V.O] I've
rassled with alligators,
I've tussled with a whale.
I done handcuffed lightning,
and put thunder in jail.
You know I'm bad!
I can drown the drink of water
and kill a dead tree.
- This will be no contest.
- [Ali V.O] Wait 'til
you see Muhammad Ali.
- To have that chutzpah
and to be a black man in
America was just outlandish.
- "Muhammad" means
"worthy of all praises;"
and "Ali" means "most high."
- And I just don't think
I should go 10,000
miles in there
and shoot some black people
that never called me nigger.
I just can't shoot 'em.
- I always wonder why Miss
America was always white,
Santa Claus is white,
White Swan Soap,
King White Soap,
White Cloud tissue paper,
and everything bad was black.
Black cat was the bad luck.
And if I threaten you, I'm
going to blackmail you.
I said, "Mama, why don't
they call it whitemail?
"They lie too."
- I loved being around him.
I love being around
Muhammad Ali.
- You gon' float like a
butterfly and sting like a bee.
Rumble, young man, rumble.
- The price of
freedom comes high.
I have paid but I am free.
- [Announcer] The
winner and still
the heavyweight
champion of the world.
- [Narrator] He called
himself "The Greatest"
and then proved it
to the entire world.
He was a master at what is
called "the sweet science;"
the brutal and, sometimes,
beautiful art of boxing.
Heavyweight champion
at just 22 years old,
he wrote his own rules
in the ring and in his life,
infuriating his critics,
baffling his opponents,
and riveting millions of fans.
At the height of the
Civil Rights Movement,
he joined a separatist
religious sect
whose leader would, for a time,
dominate both his personal life
and his boxing career.
He spoke his mind and
stood on principle,
even when it cost
him his livelihood.
He redefined black manhood,
yet belittled his
greatest rival using
the racist language
of the Jim Crow South,
in which he had been raised.
Banished for his beliefs,
he returned to
boxing an underdog,
reclaimed his title twice,
and became the most
famous man on earth.
He craved adulation
his whole life,
seeking crowds on
street corners,
in hotel lobbies,
on airport tarmacs,
everywhere he went,
and reveled in the
uninhibited joy
he brought each adoring fan.
He earned a massive fortune,
spent it freely,
and gave generously
to family, friends,
even strangers, anyone in need.
"Service to others,"
he often said,
"is the rent you pay for
your room here on earth."
Even after his body
began to betray him
and his brain had
absorbed too many blows,
he fought on,
unable to go without
the attention and drama
that accompanied each bout.
Later, slowed and silenced by
a cruel and crippling disease,
he found refuge in his faith;
becoming a symbol of peace
and hope on every continent.
"Muhammad Ali was," the
novelist, Norman Mailer wrote,
"the very spirit of
the 20th century."
- I've always wanted
to be one black one
who got big or your
white televisions,
on your white newspapers,
on your satellites,
million dollar checks,
and still look you in your face,
and tell you the truth,
and 100% stay with and
represent my people,
and not leave them
and sell them out
because I'm rich,
and stay with them.
That was my purpose.
I'm here and I'm
showing the world
that you can be
here and still free,
and stay yourself,
and get respect from the world.
- Welcome, welcome,
welcome everyone,
I'm Jesse Washington
from The Undefeated.
Really pleased to be here today
to discuss this wonderful
new film, "Muhammad Ali."
I'd like to introduce
our panelists.
First, we have the director
himself, Ken Burns;
the prolific
documentary filmmaker
whose credits are far too
numerous to name here.
But he is bringing
us this new look
at the life and meaning of
"The Greatest of All Time."
I think it's important to note
that there's a lot of talk
about GOAT this and
GOAT that these days,
it's become almost a cliche.
We've got herds of
GOATs everywhere,
but there is only one
"Greatest of All Time"
when it comes to
athletics in this country
forever and ever,
and that is Muhammad Ali.
Ken Burns, welcome
and we're glad to have you.
- Thank you, Jesse.
It's great to be
working with you
and The Undefeated,
and on behalf of Sarah
Burns and David McMahon,
who are the two co-directors
and those two are the writers,
we're so grateful
to be part of this.
Thank you.
- Thank you.
We also have Howard
Bryant here with us,
the journalist and
author of nine books.
Most recently, his
most latest book,
is "Full Dissidence: Notes
From an Uneven Playing Field."
And Howard is a longtime
columnist at ESPN,
has worked at many
other newspaper outlets
in this country.
All of the best
ones, if I may say.
And is also a newly
minted contributor
to Meadowlark Media,
where we will be
seeing more of his work
in a variety of other
forms and platforms.
Howard, welcome.
- Thank you, Jesse.
Good seeing you again.
- Good to see you too.
And also we have Rasheda Ali,
an author, speaker,
humanitarian,
and daughter of Muhammad Ali.
Rasheda, it's great to
have you here today.
- Hi Jesse, thanks
for having me.
I'm honored.
- You're very welcome.
We're honored to
be here with you.
So wonderful film, Ken.
It was great to see an
early version of it.
I was enraptured and
riveted by your work.
And the first thing
I'd like to ask you is
that you're
approaching this giant,
so much has been written,
so much has been said.
Films upon films,
books upon books.
What is it that you
wanted accomplish
when you started
out with this film,
and now that it's finished
and about to be released
on September 19th on PBS,
what is it that you
want people to learn
from this film about Ali?
- Oh, that's a
complicated question.
Thank you, and Sarah and
Dave would probably have
different variations
of that question...
Or the answer to that question.
You know, we're drawn to him.
He's a spellbinding,
hugely important person
in the history of
the United States.
It's not just sports.
I'm drawn to him personally.
In the course of my
professional life,
I've gotten to know a
lot of amazing Americans.
Only two others come
to mind that have
a sense of charisma,
a sense of purpose,
a sense of being
able to embody us
in all of our contradictions.
One of them is Abraham Lincoln
and the other is
Louis Armstrong,
and Muhammad Ali is
in that select group
of someone who's just
personally touched me.
I'm not talking about
where he is placed
in the pantheon of sportspeople.
I agree with you
Jesse, he's at the top.
There are a lot of
films about him.
There are a lot of really,
really good films about him
but I think what we
wanted to do is do
a true biography from his
boyhood in Louisville,
in Jim Crow America,
up to his death not too many
years ago by Parkinson's
and everything in between.
So not just a couple of fights,
there's two dozen that
are treated in detail,
not just his difficulties
with the United States over
the draft and induction,
not just this or that,
but the whole thing,
and try to get a sense
of who the whole man is,
warts and all,
as the introduction,
I think, suggested.
And it would be so presumptuous
of any one of us,
Sarah, Dave, or me,
to say this is "What
you should take away."
We just want to tell a good
and complicated story
that is able to
contain contradictions.
But at the end, you
begin to realize
how extraordinarily
gifted this man was,
not just at his
chosen profession,
but at the profession
of being a human being.
You know, I've said
this a few times;
It's always really good
if you leave this planet being
the most beloved
person on this planet.
And that's what all of
us should be tilting
towards if we can.
He did, and he was,
and I'm interested
in who that is.
I'm interested in
it, warts and all.
But at the end of the day,
it's about love.
That's what he understood.
And there are people who
spend a long time trying
to get at that,
he got at it.
He understood it.
And I'm so happy
that Rasheda is here
because she carries not only
whatever genetics,
the bloodline,
but she also carries this
sense of love and spirit.
And having Rasheda
close to me is like
he's still here in a way.
- Absolutely.
So Rasheda, I was struck
as I watched the film,
and as I thought
about our world today,
how we still...
Islam has not truly been
accepted in America.
I was struck by the fact that
so many people mispronounced
the word "Muslim" in the movie,
or mispronounce the
word "Islam," you know?
And so, what is it
that you might hope
or think that America can learn
about your father
and his relationship
to his faith from this film?
- Thank you so much.
First of all, I wanna
thank you so much, Ken
for those beautiful words.
And thank you, Jesse.
I think my dad,
he led by example.
So he was a great role model,
not just for us
but for the whole world,
because I think
when my dad did was
he wanted to urge us to be
the best version of ourselves
and to push ourselves
to become better
than who we think we are.
So he adopted this
faith and he was...
It was full circle.
He really was
passionate about joining
the Nation of Islam,
and it gave him so much
courage and bravery
at a time where his people
were being lynched and killed,
and segregation was going on,
and there was so much
hate against our people.
He felt that this
religion was the one
that was going to
give him the power
to believe in himself
and his people.
And so, he did all that
thinking of his people.
His people were always
something that he had in mind
whenever he did things
because anything he
did, he empowered them.
And so, as the religion evolved,
he became even more
spiritual as a man
because this religion,
Islam made him not only
strong mentally,
but it gave him the
courage to do things
that I don't think he normally
would have been able to do
if he didn't have his
religion backing him up,
so to speak.
So he felt like....
And there are clips in this film
that I've never seen before,
and I've seen probably
thousands in my life.
I mean, I've just over and over.
But there were really
interesting clips
and I know most of you
have already seen the clip
where he says I'll face gunfire
without denouncing my
faith and my religion.
So if we can all
adopt his passion
and his love for
faith and in God,
or some higher power,
I think we'll all already
be that much closer
to getting what
we're all seeking,
and Ken said it so well,
and that's love.
I think that's what
makes the world go round.
My dad adopted a religion
that was not socially accepted.
It's still not.
So I think our
passion to be able
to become role models for those
who still have Islamophobia
on their minds,
we have to remember
that people are looking
at us as Muslim all the time,
trying to find out,
when are we going
to make a mistake?
And when are we going
to commit a crime?
So I think my dad felt
his responsibility
as a Muslim was to become
a role model for
people who are Muslim,
but not only that,
but for people who are
trying to find themselves,
trying to find their faith,
and I think he did a
very good job of that.
He wasn't perfect,
as we know that.
(indistinct) humanize my dad.
In this film, he wasn't perfect.
He was human, just
like all of us.
- Jesse, you're muted.
- Thank you.
Those contradictions
are fascinating.
How a man can
emanate so much love
and still do what he did to some
of these people in the ring is
one of the most
interesting journeys
that there is in the field.
Howard, I wanted to ask you,
there can never be another Ali
because of who he
was and what he did
at the time that he did it,
in the tumultuous 1960s,
when black people, as
a whole, in America,
were taking control
of their destiny.
And so, we've just,
in 2020, came through
another tumultuous
and incredibly moving
and...
Emotional upheaval and a
racial reckoning, awakening,
something along those lines.
We're still processing
what it was.
Ali doing what he
did when he did it...
And now, it's fashionable
for athletes to be
"aware" or "activists"
or all this kind of stuff.
And a lot of these young
athletes who probably do care
about racial justice
don't know Ali's story.
So what lessons do you think Ali
and what he did,
today's athletes
should really take
and learn from and use
as they try to use
their platforms
as he used his?
- Yeah, well for me,
I just feel like
the biggest thing,
when I think about Muhammad,
I always think about risk.
And risk not to himself,
but the type of risk that
is very much prevalent today
when it comes to
professional athletes,
and that is you are
asked to make a deal
when you're a pro athlete.
And that deal is to
really separate yourself
from your own people.
You're constantly being asked
not to advocate
for black people.
You're constantly
asked to hang out
with a different crowd
or you know that in the culture,
being what it is today,
simply advocating for or
supporting black people is
a political act.
You know that because
the minute somebody says
something that's in
support of black people,
it becomes a news story.
Why is it so controversial?
Why is this such a risk?
Why is it such a...
Why are you putting
your entire career
in jeopardy simply by saying,
"I support the
people of Ferguson or
Baltimore or whatever"?
So I think that's
one of the things
that needs to be done,
that maybe athletes have a
great shot of doing right now,
which is demystifying the idea
of supporting black
people, right?
I mean, why is this
the defining thing
that can threaten
your livelihood?
And so, I think that's one
of the biggest things for me
when I think about
athletes today.
I think the secondary thing is
the idea of the comparison.
You're not going to compare
yourself to this man
and it's not because
he was so great,
even though he was;
the real reason is is
because what he did
and what Jackie Robinson did,
and what so many before us did,
made it unnecessary for you
to duplicate what he did.
And I think that's the road,
when you think about
the Colin Kaepernicks,
when you think
about LeBron James,
and you think about
Serena Williams,
or whoever else is
out there today,
doing their thing,
their paths are just
different from his.
And you don't want his path.
You do not want
the entire weight
of the federal government
and its people to
come down on you.
You don't want what
he went through.
And if you have to go through
what he went through,
that says so much more about
what little progress
this country has made
than it would say about him.
- Man, thank you.
That's so accurate.
So Ken, I'd like you to setup
this next clip that
we're going to watch,
and not to step
on your toes here
but it was one of the
most meaningful moments
of the film for me.
And really, I was sort
of vaguely aware of it,
as much as I've read
and seen about Ali,
but it packs such an
emotional wallop for me.
So what does this next clip
that we're about to see?
- Well, thank you.
Two of our secret weapons
in the film are here
with us this evening,
Howard and Rasheda,
and they're wonderful.
One of the others is a
man named Michael Bentt,
who's a heavyweight fighter
who helps interpret mid fights.
He's mainly, almost
his entire presence,
is within the fights to help us
perhaps some of us who
don't understand it
and find it just brutal,
understand what it's about.
So this is 1966.
He's been the champ
for two years.
He's announced when he
won the championship
that he is a Muslim.
It's caused him
lots of problems.
He's had his license revoked
in some places in response.
He's now said he is not
going to be inducted
into the United States Army,
and he's having a hard
time finding fights.
He has to go to Canada,
he goes to Europe,
and then he comes back
and he has a fight.
And that's basically what
we're going to show you,
is this fight.
So please roll the clip.
- [Narrator] After
four fights abroad,
Ali's promoters
had finally managed
to secure an American venue;
The Astrodome in Houston, Texas.
A brand new and
first-of-its-kind domed stadium,
dubbed "The Eighth
Wonder of The World."
Ali had agreed to fight
Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams,
an army veteran who
had once been shot
by a police officer
during a drunk driving arrest.
Williams had knocked out
51 of his 71 opponents.
It would be the largest audience
for an indoor boxing
match in history.
- I think his masterpiece
is with Cleveland Williams.
That's Picasso, right?
That's Baryshnikov, right?
That's Miles Davis.
He throws like a
10-punch combination,
he's going back with his man.
Now look,
I don't know how to define that.
I'm not a scientist,
but like that kind of artistry
will never be seen again.
When he did that,
it looked effortless,
and it looked like he came
out of the womb doing that.
- [Narrator]
Introducing a new move
he dubbed "The Ali Shuffle,"
he peppered Williams
with jab after jab,
as the Big Cat struggled
to land a single punch.
Ali floored his
challenger three times
in the second round.
"It was a two-fisted assault
"of vicious effectiveness,"
wrote frequent
critic, Arthur Daley,
who declared that
Ali had won over
all the doubters.
A minute into the third round,
the referee ended the fight.
(crowd cheering)
- [Announcer] (indistinct)
- Wow, wow.
I mean, so aside from the
physical display there,
I'm going to give them
a little more context
for the audience for this clip.
In the lead up to this fight,
Ali had recently embraced
the Nation of Islam
and had changed his
name to Muhammad Ali,
and this boxer refused
to call him by his name.
And throughout the whole fight,
Ali is tagging him,
and tagging him,
and saying, "What's my name?
"What's my name?"
I found it rather resonant
the victim there had a perm
in his hair,
which is a sign of really
of us being brainwashed
to want to be more
like white people.
And then another
really subtle thing
in that clip was
after they called the fight
and Ali went back to his corner,
he turned over his shoulder
and gave this man a look of
utter domination and contempt.
And it was just like...
It gave me chills to see it.
So, "Oh, you're not going to
use my name, Muhammad Ali?
"You're going to call me Clay?
"Boom, I'm punching
in your face.
"You can't do anything about it.
"Now, say my name."
I mean, it was just
so powerful to me.
And it gets us to
the Nation of Islam,
which was a driving force,
an overriding presence
in Ali's life,
and really depicted
in great detail,
and historically
accurate detail,
painful detail, in this film.
And there's a lot
about the Nation
that is problematic.
The historian, Gerald
Early calls it a cult.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar says
it's not true Islam.
And yet, it helped to give us
the great mindset
and everything of Muhammad Ali.
And I did not know, Ken,
that Elijah Muhammad,
the leader of the
Nation of Islam,
gave him that name.
Everyone else was
"Something X" or "This X."
So Howard, I would
like to ask you,
what would Ali have been
without the Nation of Islam?
Specifically, that
brand of black Muslim?
What would Muhammad
Ali have been?
- Well, I think that's
a great question,
but I would always step back
when I think about
Muhammad and I would ask,
"What would he be
without Malcolm X?"
I mean, that's the
first connection.
And to so many people,
it was...
To so many black people,
it was an articulation.
It was an attempt
to recognize that
something's not right here,
in terms of what
I'm being taught.
There has to be a counter
to what I'm being taught
because what I know in front
of me is not what I feel.
I remember when I
was in high school,
my mother gave me a copy...
I didn't even know she had it.
She has a first edition copy
of "The Autobiography
of Malcolm X."
And I was like, "Where
did this come from?"
It was like in the living room
and she gave it to me.
And when you open it up, she...
My mother as a 17 year old;
all of these sentences
are underlined,
underlined, underlined,
and that's what I think about
when you think about Muhammad.
There's the articulation.
"I get you," right?
"I understand you, I feel you.
"This is exactly what I see."
And I think that when
you think about...
You look at the clip
with Cleveland Williams;
here's a guy whose
hair is comped
and he's talking about respect.
And so, what the Nation did
for so many black people
was to give us an outlet
to say what you're feeling
is not preposterous,
and what you're feeling is real,
and we're going
to try to give you
some form of roadmap to what
we think your true self is,
to what you know
your true self is.
Because even if it's not this,
you know it's not what
you're actually living
in the United States.
- I think Howard's right.
The courage part of
it is so interesting,
that you said earlier.
And while the Nation
of Islam was a kind of
classically American
hybrid of stuff
and had lots of
corruption at its core,
it did offer an
alternative narrative
against the old slave narrative,
one of the ones,
and it was liberating
for this young man
and he was able to transform it.
And where Malcolm X, who
was excluded from it,
was headed both politically
and then spiritually is
where Muhammad Ali also got to.
And Rasheda says
this in the film,
the fighting is just one aspect.
He just happened
to be doing that.
He happens to be
greatest athlete.
But it's amazing
that this is about,
as he says over and
over again, freedom,
and the way he found
the path to freedom was
by accepting this new narrative,
this new story of oneself
and one's possibilities
that the Nation
of Islam offered.
- Yeah.
Rasheda, what are
your perspectives
on the Nation of Islam,
both as a presence
in your father's life
and the criticisms that
have been leveled against it
in the film and elsewhere?
- The Nation of Islam
is not true Islam.
Of course, my dad
realized that later,
when he adopted orthodox Islam.
But at the time,
it was important because it
really allowed my dad to face
all of the issues that
was going on in his life.
Remember, he grew
up in Louisville,
so that's the Jim Crow south.
So segregation was
worse in the South
than anywhere else.
He felt, in a sense,
like what he did for
the United States,
winning a gold medal,
didn't mean anything.
So the Nation was very
important for him at that time
because it allowed him to face
what was going on
in his own hometown,
as well as the rest
of the world, head on.
So the Nation was important,
even though it isn't true Islam.
The ideals was important
because it really
made daddy understand
the importance of being...
And Malcolm mentioned that too,
is that if you can
brainwash someone
to hate themselves,
that's the worst
crime you can do.
And that's what my
dad was really trying
to allow people to realize,
is that as he got more and
more recognition and fame,
he used that to help
his people get out
of the situation
that they were in.
And so, he did that by saying,
"I'm beautiful, I'm great.
"I'm so pretty."
That's something that
African-Americans...
It seems like a
small thing to do,
but for an
African-American to say
on national TV, "I'm
so pretty, I'm great,"
that was unheard of back then.
And so, he even got
a lot of backlash
from African-Americans
who were also athletes
and were saying,
"just be quiet."
So my dad was
really, in a sense,
telling our people "Wake up.
"We can be beautiful.
"We can be proud
"and we can get what we want."
So that was the importance
of my dad and the Nation.
- Yeah, so much of
this is liberation.
When you think about the
broad definition of that word,
it's liberation.
When you're black, you're
taught that you're ugly.
When you think about it,
when you grow up,
and we all know it, right?
Growing up, even growing
up around the way,
when black people make
fun of each other,
our humor is based in
making fun of how you look.
Always making fun
of how you look.
And he was one of the people...
Where do you think "black
is beautiful" comes from?
It was the counter
to this, to say,
"Look, there's
another way here."
And our humor is rooted in it.
When you look around,
you walk into a store
and you look at
all the magazines,
who's on the cover?
You're not on the cover.
These standards of
beauty, they're not you.
Everything about it
is not you, right?
You're taught completely
to dislike yourself.
And so, as much as
the Nation liberated
a lot of black people
in terms of trying
to find a pathway
that eventually,
in Kareem's case,
in Malcolm's case,
in Muhammad's case,
got them to Orthodox Islam,
it also gave you a
pathway to pull yourself
out of this idea that
"I'm not worthy in
the white world,"
that it gave you
something to look at
that you could be proud of.
And that's one of
the things that
when we looked at Muhammad,
that was the thing
that he gave everybody.
He made you feel like
you are as beautiful as he was.
- Unless your name
was Joe Louis.
Unless--
- and Joe Frazier.
I was gonna say--
(speaking over each other)
- What's really
ironic about that is
that all the things
that Muhammad gave us,
he used against Joe Frazier.
And the cruelty,
He knew what he was
doing with Frazier.
I mean, we all knew
it and you watch this.
And over time, as you get older,
especially the first fight,
it was essentially
two black men pitted
against each other,
but one was supposedly
representing "White America,"
and that was Frazier,
and he's from North Philly.
So the psychological
battle between those two
and the cruelty,
I hate to say it because
Muhammad was everything to me,
but the psychological cruelty
on someone that he knew was not
at his intellectual level as
well sold a lot of tickets,
but caused a lot
of pain as well.
Those fights were real.
And when you watch those fights,
and which is why
I can keep talking
about this forever, Ken,
you watch those fights,
you can feel black
America right there.
You feel all of it.
I mean, right in your face,
it's just so powerful.
I watch Ali fights just for
fun, 10, 20 times a year.
Let's just go...
Even the second fight,
I'll watch that one too.
- Yeah, and he also
used that tactic,
these inter-black conflicts
against George Foreman
and set himself up
as the black man.
He always set himself
up as the black man
and would diminish these others,
his opponents' blackness,
or exaggerate their blackness
in order to disrespect them
and things like that,
and it was...
And at the end of the film,
he says that he regretted it.
And so, he knew he was wrong.
Ken, do you think
that this is...
And you're very faithful
to telling the story
and not putting your
finger on the scale,
your thumb on the scale,
one way or another.
But one thing that really
struck me was how young he was
when he developed his identity,
and young men are
headstrong and brash,
and plunge forward
without considering
the full ramifications
of their actions.
Do you think that
these cruelties
that he perpetrated on his
opponents were strategic,
come from avarice,
trying to make more
money, fame, attention,
some of the above?
How would you analyze that?
- It's a good question.
It was important for
us to show everything.
I think we live in an
unfortunate culture
where everything is on
or off, good or bad,
and no life is like that.
And our notions of
heroism are so limited.
We think a hero is perfect
and lament that we're in
an age where no heroes,
but in fact, heroism is
about the negotiation,
even the war, between
a person's strengths
and their weaknesses.
This was not a good side.
Todd Boyd says in the film,
"He's using his his
power there for evil
"and not for good."
But most of the
time, it's for good,
and it's complicated.
It is strategic
and yet, I think
he doesn't know.
But let's, remember when
you bring up the young man
this is a person who,
very early in life,
understood that he
had some mission,
he had some purpose.
You don't start boxing
for a few months
and call yourself "The Greatest"
when no one even thinks
that you are that,
and then make yourself that,
and keep yourself
that over time,
and bring a larger
message of love.
So, to me, this is a
classic hero's journey.
This is a...
There are lots of
dragons to slay
and as we know,
we're our own worst enemies.
He was his own worst
enemy in lots of ways,
as we are, all four of us,
our own worst enemies,
and I think that was an
important part to share.
And I was so happy that
this beautiful woman here
who carries the spirit
of her father understood
that you couldn't tell it
with just only the icing on it.
It had to have complexity
and depth, as he did
because you can't
then emerge from it
without appreciating
what he went through.
The kind of sacrifices,
the risks, as Howard said,
that he took,
they're unbelievable.
And when something
turned out good for him,
legally, for example,
people say, "Well, is
this restore your faith?"
And he just turns around,
as if he was talking today,
and he said, "Somebody's
going to get killed by a cop,
"someone's going to
get beat up by a cop.
"This is it.
"This was a good decision for me
"but it doesn't end it."
And so, there was
always a purpose.
He loses to Frazier
after belittling him
and saying he's going to win
with all the confidence,
drove white America crazy.
A lot of people were for Frazier
just to shut him up,
and Frazier, in a way, did,
and his post-fight response
about his
responsibility to people
to show that life
will bring this...
You'll lose someone you love,
you'll lose a job,
you'll lose a title,
and you need to get back up,
it can't defeat you.
You cannot understand.
It's the parallel of
what Howard was saying
about "beautiful."
The parallel to that was a
kind of empowering spirit,
that this world will throw you
a lot of difficult things
and I will show you,
you can get through this.
So he is as
magnificent in defeat
as he is in victory.
And we saw the clip
where it's Baryshnikov.
it's Miles Davis, it's Picasso.
And that fight with Cleveland
Williams is in it...
Jesse, just to set you right,
that is not the fight,
which is "what's my name?
It's another fight
that's coming up
in that that episode,
in which he has been
consciously belittled.
I think the important thing
about Cleveland "Big
Cat" Williams is
that he's shot by the police.
This stuff has been going on
well before Rodney King,
well before Muhammad Ali,
well before Emmett till,
well before Jack Johnson,
well before anything.
It's a 402-year old disease,
and it's a virus that's
infected our story,
and Muhammad Ali intersects
with that in powerful ways.
- Yeah, I wanted to
throw one quick thing
out there to that too, Ken,
when we talk about
the liberation of this
and what Muhammad was saying;
It's also, he was
liberating athletes
because to Jesse's point,
ballplayers were
supposed to be grateful.
Ballplayers, the first
thing about a ballplayer,
you call the owner
of the team "Mister."
They still do it today.
You win a game and
you say, "Thank you,"
and you're deferential
to the reporters,
you're deferential to the fans,
you're deferential to everybody.
And he was the
first guy out there
who really took control
of his own narrative
and understood that "no,
no, no, I'm the show.
"You're coming here to see me.
"And what that does is
that gives me power."
And Henry Aaron was
very similar to that,
where he realized that,
"If I'm here, you
have to listen to me."
And the number of black
athletes at that time
who were frightened because
of what he was doing
in terms of that liberation...
There was another
generation who said,
"Yeah, I want to
be just like him."
- Rasheda, what were the
most emotional moments
of this film for you?
- Well, I cried throughout.
There was some....
Well, most...
There were just tears of joy
because it was
great to see my dad.
And then, the times
where he was...
There was a part in the clip
where he was kissing me,
or my twin...
I have a twin.
So I look and I'm like,
"I'm not sure if
that's me or Jameela.
"I'm not sure."
But he was kissing him
one of us, me or my twin,
and he was like, "Don't
you know your father's...
"Do you know your
daddy's the greatest?
"Do you know your
daddy's the greatest?"
My whole face, I just...
I never saw that clip before.
And for daddy to be like,
"Did you know your
father's the greatest?
"He's the greatest
all the time."
I just started crying.
- It's a home movie for you.
- It was like a home movie.
It was like...
'Cause I've never
seen that before
and I was like, "Oh my
God, I've never seen that.
"That's me!"
And it was a time where
I didn't really remember
because most of my time
I remember my dad
were Parkinson's.
Because we grew up with
the divorce and everything,
we didn't grow up with
seeing my dad every day.
So to see him
interacting with us
and with the wagons in
Deer Lake, Pennsylvania,
I just got some
really great memories
that just started to
rush through my head
because they were good
times for us, as kids,
because we were
with our parents.
And we were on this
great training camp,
and we watched our dad train,
and it was just a
fun time for us.
But for us, he wasn't famous,
he was just our dad
who just took us on pony rides
and was just being a dad.
- This is what we wanted to do.
The whole film starts
with a very long sequence
about stealing a
bite of cornflakes.
There's not a
parent in the world
that doesn't know
what that kidding is
with a toddler,
and it was our way of saying,
"Okay, okay, we'll
get to the boxing.
"Okay, we'll get
to the conflict.
"We'll get to this.
"But this is a person who
loves other human beings,
"and he particularly
loves his family,
"and he particularly
loves his girls."
And it was important
to move that
from its placement way
up in episode three
and move it back to the
very beginning of the film,
and say...
Let's just start
with something like,
"Look over there, I'm going
to steal your corn flakes."
- Good call there, Ken.
- Great call.
It was really beautiful opening.
I just immediately
started crying as soon
as I saw Miriam and my
dad just playing around.
I never saw that either.
Again, we're seeing
footage I've never seen
and it's really taken me back.
It's good memories.
- Our fourth producer,
Stephanie Jenkins,
and the team of people
who look for stuff;
the reason why these films take
four, five, six, seven years
to make is because we want to do
the deepest possible
dive, possible
and make sure that it's
not an additive process,
but it's subtractive.
We collect hundreds of hours
and then say,
"Okay, we love that,
"but it just doesn't fit."
And the clip we're going
to show right now, Jesse,
if I can segue into that
so we don't run out of any time,
is not too much
after the other clip
but he's refused induction,
he's delayed some stuff by
changing his draft board
from Kentucky to Texas,
but he's...
When he's finally inducted,
he refuses induction
and he is put on trial.
And so, this clip is
really self-explanatory
and we've sort of
hinted at it before,
but it may be a good way
to finally get at the man.
This human being, Muhammad Ali.
So could you roll the last clip?
- [Narrator] Two weeks later,
an all-white Houston
jury found Ali guilty
of refusing the draft.
The judge, ignoring the
more lenient recommendation
of the prosecutor,
sentenced him to the maximum;
five years in prison
and a $10,000 fine.
And he would have to
surrender his passport.
Ali's lawyers immediately
filed an appeal,
prepared to go all the way to
the Supreme Court, if necessary.
A process that could take years.
Ali remained free,
but without his title
or a license to box.
He fully expected that he would
one day go to jail
for his beliefs.
- We, who are followers of
the Honorable Elijah Muhammad
in the religion of Islam,
we believe in obeying
the laws of the land.
We are taught to obey
the laws of the land
as long as it don't conflict
with our religious beliefs.
- [Reporter] Will you
go into service as such?
- This would be a 1,000%
against the teachings
of the Honorable
Elijah Muhammad,
the religion of Islam,
and the Holy Quran, the holy
book that we believe in.
This would be all be denouncing
and defying everything
that I stand for.
- [Reporter] This
would mean, of course,
that you stand the
chance of going to jail
as a result of not
going into service.
- Well, whatever the punishment,
whatever the persecution is
for standing up of
my religious beliefs,
even if it means facing
machine gun fire that day,
I will face it before
denouncing Elijah Muhammad
and the religion of Islam.
I'm ready to die.
- When I think about him saying,
"If they want to put maybe
for a firing squad tomorrow,
"I'm ready to die before
I abandon my religion."
That's it.
You can't teach
that kind of thing
in lectures and books.
That kind of thing
has to be modeled.
And models turn into traditions,
and traditions provide people
with the mechanical memory
to do the right thing.
That's what Muhammad Ali
represented in that moment.
I mean, anybody now faced
with a major decision
in which the right way is clear
and the wrong way is clear,
but the consequences are dire,
now they have a model that
they can fall back on,
psychologically,
emotionally, spiritually;
That's what Muhammad Ali
represented in that moment
and that, to me,
that moment will
live on forever.
- Wow.
I love that part of the film.
Howard, you've
written so evocatively
about the heritage,
which is the title
of one of your books,
of black athletes and activism.
Can you explain
today's athletes,
whether they know it or not,
what are some of the examples
of how they're
following that model
that Ali set?
- Well, they are
part of a lineage
and I think that people...
I think we hear it.
I don't think we know it
because you don't really know it
until you're faced with it.
I think that one of the mistakes
that I see, that I don't
love, today is this idea
that you are in the
heritage of Muhammad Ali
by owning a team,
or by making money,
or being part of an empire.
It's exactly the
opposite of that.
He's exactly the opposite
of all of these
things that we have.
We have conflated athlete
activism with commerce.
And so, to me,
what I find in...
What I find appealing to
what's happening today is
the citizenship element
of the athletes.
When you see
athletes doing things
that allow them to
speak for other people,
I find that to be compelling.
I always remind myself
when we go through this,
whether we're talking
about Colin Kaepernick
or we're talking
about LeBron James
or whomever else,
the level of risk is
never going to be the same
and it shouldn't be.
And that I feel like
we compare people
to Muhammad way too easily
because it's incongruous to us
to think about having a
government come after you.
I think very few people have
any idea of what that means.
And when I say the
government coming after you,
I'm talking about the citizens,
not just the prison, being
threatened with prison,
but I'm thinking the number
of conversations that
people were having
that were in absolute support
of this man going
to prison or worse.
And so, I'm very, very wary
of ever comparing
anybody to Muhammad.
- And the judge is
given the chance,
the prosecutor's had asked for
a much more lenient sentence,
he sentenced him to the maximum.
We cut to a newspaper,
years after he's
changed his name,
they're still calling him Clay.
We don't know what
he was up against.
I mean, that's
one of the reasons
why we wanted to make the film,
is to describe that thing
and I think, as I
said before, Howard,
I think you really hit
the nail on the head,
that this risk is
a huge, huge part
of the story,
that sometimes we just
don't put it together.
It's sitting there
right in front of us.
This is a person who
said he would risk
a firing squad.
I mean, that's something.
- And it sounds hyperbolic
but one of the things that
I always remind people is
if you really want to compare
anybody to Muhammad,
in terms of some of these risks,
it has to be someone like
Tommy Smith or John Carlos;
they lost their careers.
And even someone like...
And this is why I don't
like the comparison game
because it makes it seem like
you're criticizing someone.
You're not, you're putting
it into the proper context.
Is that at no point
in his career has LeBron James
ever been threatened
with his live...
And his livelihood has
never been threatened
by anything he's ever
said in his career.
He's that protected,
and that's a good thing, right?
You don't have to be destitute
in order to be a good person
or a good citizen, or
do the right thing.
And the fact that they have
that insulation is great,
but that does separate
you from Muhammad,
which is also a great thing.
You don't want to
be in that category.
He did this for us.
We don't need any others
to keep doing this for us.
And so, I always feel
when you come back
to what he went through
and you see it in the film,
especially '67 to '70-'71,
and even beyond,
even by the time you get to '74,
it's unprecedented what you saw
because I honestly believe
that most athletes,
most people would have
found some way to compromise
and not go as far as he went.
He did not compromise at all
and still found his way back.
Most players who do,
most people who do what he did,
they get broken,
and he didn't get broken.
He was unbroken.
- He absolutely was.
And one of the
comments that you made
in the film, Howard,
that I found really resonant was
that the Rumble in The Jungle,
him coming back and
beating Foreman,
he was made whole.
He was made whole,
and then that,
in terms of his story
and what it meant,
was so rewarding.
(speaking over each other)
- I was going to say, Jesse,
when we think about
these stories,
even Jackie, even
Jackie Robinson,
at some point, realized what
had been taken from him.
Kurt Flood lost his career.
Colin Kaepernick
lost his career.
Smith and Carlos
lost their careers.
Everybody who talks, they
find a way to break you.
And he had to win that fight,
that's why Zaire is
my favorite fight.
Zaire the resilient
spirit of resistance.
It is everything.
And think about...
Are we even watching this film
if he loses that fight?
Is there a film if he lo...
It's a different film.
But the story.
Most of us lose when
they come after you.
- Yeah, yeah.
So he was made
whole, absolutely.
I agree with you.
And then, at the
end of the film,
we see him in pieces.
And the pieces of him that
that made him so compelling,
his voice, his movement,
are what's robbed from him.
And the film even
quotes Ali as saying,
"This may be my punishment
for the wrongs that I've done
"and the way I treated
these opponents
"or the infidelities that I had
"in my relationships
and things like that."
So what part of the Ali story
and the meaning of his story
is filled by his condition
at the end of his life?
And maybe, Rasheda,
I'll start with you
since you interacted
with him personally
and had to see
him in this state.
How does that part
of it fit into
the overall message of his life?
- Well, I mentioned after I saw
all the clips, the
whole entire series,
I mentioned to Ken,
and Sarah Burns,
that it was really
beautiful to watch my dad,
the good and the bad.
He was young,
changing the world.
You're going to make mistakes.
But it's beautiful a man evolve
into a better man.
He's always evolving
into a better man.
He's not the same
person he is now.
His convictions are the same
but his choices aren't the same.
So it's beautiful to watch how
my dad has come full circle,
and kind of had regrets
with the Malcolm X
and Frazier and stuff.
He was human.
And when Parkinson's
became a part of his life,
my dad was devastated,
and I think he disappeared
from the media for a while
because he was
trying to figure out,
wrap his brain around,
what is this condition
that is stopping me
from being the person I was?
Because my dad's biggest
asset was his mouth.
And so, then you
get this condition
that's muting him
and now, he's barely some...
In some clips you'll see,
he's barely whispering.
So that was his strength.
And so, my dad had to
kind of really figure out,
"What am I going to do with this
"now new condition?"
But then, you see in 1996,
where he's lighting the
torch for the Olympics,
he comes out of the
dark and into the light
and shows people,
it's very brave move,
that I could have Parkinson's,
I can light this torch
and I can still be great.
But he's not doing
it for just himself,
he's doing it for other people
with neurocognitive diseases.
So that was the brave part,
is that he's letting
other people know
that this does not
define who you are.
This is what you have,
this has not
defined who you are.
You can still be great
and have this condition.
So that was what was beautiful,
to watch him evolving,
even with this condition
that, in some cases,
would have broke
most people down.
But we've got to remember
my dad was always a fighter.
So throughout his entire life,
he used his core principles,
including his faith,
to get through a lot of
the trials and tribulations
that he faced.
I don't think any other
person had ever faced so many
all in one lifetime.
So it's really
wonderful to see that
even with Parkinson's,
he's still going out and doing
what he loves best,
and that's helping people.
And it's really
inspiring and motivating,
and it brought tears
to my eyes, Ken,
I have to tell you that,
because when you're
watching daddy struggling,
walking and talking,
and it's hard to
do certain things
in the late stages,
he's still helping people
and I think that's
the overall message.
I think my dad wanted all of us,
no matter what happens
to you in your life,
service to others
is the rent you pay
for your room in heaven.
- Yeah.
Howard, what do you think
about this him being made whole
in the Rumble in The Jungle,
and then being broken
down toward the end?
- Well, I always
felt there was...
It's very poignant.
It's very painful.
And he's a professional,
and this is what you know.
This is...
We always talk about
"the athlete's journey,"
and this is the
athlete's journey.
And he was going to go until
he couldn't go anymore.
There's always a piece
of you that believes
that if I just make
this adjustment,
I can win this fight
or if I just do this, like...
And boxing is the
cruelest lesson
because there's only one
way to go out in boxing
if you're not gonna...
At some point,
you're going to lose.
And for me, it wasn't...
The Zaire fight
was the pinnacle.
The Larry Holmes fight
and the Berbick fight,
those are the ones
where it was like...
Especially Berbick, it's like...
You didn't want to see it.
It's hard.
It's almost like look
at a family member
'cause you love
Muhammad so much.
And I always felt like
when you watched the end...
'Cause I remember, I was a kid.
I was in elementary
and middle school
when he was coming to the end.
You knew how much you love him
'cause you didn't
want to see him fight,
you didn't want him
to go back out there.
And it's the fight,
this is what it is when
you're at that level.
There's only one way.
Very few people recognize,
"I'm going to go without
being told to leave."
Most athletes get told to leave.
- We're coming to the end,
but we do have some
audience questions.
And Ken, I'd like to
throw this one at you
from Brandon in Washington.
And he asked, "What was
different from making this film
"from making his favorite
documentary, "Baseball"?"
And I'll sort of
layer into that.
We love all of our children
but we love all of
them differently,
so at this point in your career,
what is special to you
about this particular
film compared
to "Baseball" on all
of your other children?
- You're muted, Ken.
- Sorry.
It's a good question.
I think that for us,
the process is always the same.
It's really just a lot of
discipline and hard work.
I mean, it's not akin to
preparing for a fight,
and then each
fight is different.
Each one of these
films is different.
And Howard has been
around enough of our films
to know that there's
a kind of consistency
to the discipline.
I mean, we put a name
on it, "Muhammad Ali,"
and it comes out in
September and that's it
but we're working
everyday on other films
and even films that are over
with have a life of their own.
I think what I said
at the beginning is
what is so special about this,
is that we have
necessarily dealt
in the films, over
the last 40 years,
with extraordinary human beings.
I don't know anyone more
extraordinary than him
with all the flaws,
with all the glory,
and that I love this
underlying message of love.
And in some ways,
there's a kind of poetry
to being silenced by Parkinson's
for this big mouth of a guy.
Not to shut him up, as
so many people wanted do,
but to let him go in
and make his spirit
even brighter.
It's an amazing Testament.
And let us also say
that we spend too much
of our time relegating
African-American
history to February,
our shortest and coldest month.
It's at the center
of our identity
and we don't want
to deal with that.
We just don't want
to deal with that,
and that's all that you can do.
You cannot scratch the surface
of American history
without coming into contact
with this essential
contradiction.
And then, the extraordinary gift
that African-Americans
in the face of
that hypocrisy and
contradiction have
nevertheless bestowed
on us lessons,
examples, models, as
as Sherman would say,
music,
performance,
excellence.
All of these gifts are
not recorded equally.
There's nobody bigger than him.
- Thank you.
Thank you so much for that.
And thank you for bringing
up the importance
of black history
in history overall.
And I'm glad that your
film is premiering.
It's September 19th on PBS.
And here at The Undefeated,
we believe in black
history always,
every month of the year.
So congratulations on this film.
It's a monumental achievement.
Thank you, Ken.
Thank you, Rasheda.
Thank you, Howard.
And to our audience,
thank you for joining us.
Please tune in for more
of these conversations
and the film itself,
which premieres on
September 19th on PBS.