1 00:00:05,005 --> 00:00:06,239 - [Narrator] He was bigger than boxing. 2 00:00:06,239 --> 00:00:07,607 - [Ali] I am the greatest! 3 00:00:08,775 --> 00:00:10,343 - [Narrator] He was larger than life. 4 00:00:10,343 --> 00:00:12,512 - His magnetism just was amazing. 5 00:00:12,512 --> 00:00:13,646 Who is this guy? 6 00:00:13,646 --> 00:00:15,315 - He was a revolutionary. 7 00:00:15,315 --> 00:00:16,783 He was a groundbreaker. 8 00:00:16,783 --> 00:00:18,918 - Ain't nobody gon' stop me! 9 00:00:18,918 --> 00:00:20,954 - [Narrator] Ken Burns captures an intimate story 10 00:00:20,954 --> 00:00:23,790 of victory, defeat and determination. 11 00:00:23,790 --> 00:00:25,692 - The price of freedom comes high. 12 00:00:25,692 --> 00:00:28,094 I have paid but I am free. 13 00:00:28,094 --> 00:00:29,162 - [Narrator] Muhammad Ali. 14 00:00:29,162 --> 00:00:30,363 Tune in or stream. 15 00:00:30,363 --> 00:00:32,866 Starts Sunday, September 19th at 8/7 Central, 16 00:00:32,866 --> 00:00:33,867 only on PBS. 17 00:00:37,904 --> 00:00:39,072 - Good evening 18 00:00:39,072 --> 00:00:40,640 and welcome to the first event 19 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:42,042 in our discussion series, 20 00:00:42,042 --> 00:00:44,878 "Conversations on Muhammad Ali presented 21 00:00:44,878 --> 00:00:48,615 "by PBS and ESPN's The Undefeated." 22 00:00:48,615 --> 00:00:52,652 I'm Sylvia Bugg, Chief Programming Executive at PBS. 23 00:00:52,652 --> 00:00:54,354 For more than 50 years, 24 00:00:54,354 --> 00:00:56,222 PBS has been proud to serve 25 00:00:56,222 --> 00:00:58,625 as America's home for documentaries; 26 00:00:58,625 --> 00:01:02,095 providing our audiences with impactful and inspiring films 27 00:01:02,095 --> 00:01:05,498 that cover a wide range of topics and perspectives. 28 00:01:05,498 --> 00:01:07,834 This September, PBS is delighted 29 00:01:07,834 --> 00:01:10,303 to present the latest from Ken Burns, 30 00:01:10,303 --> 00:01:13,406 Sarah Burns, David McMahon, and their team; 31 00:01:13,406 --> 00:01:17,077 a four-part documentary series on the global icon, 32 00:01:17,077 --> 00:01:18,578 Muhammad Ali. 33 00:01:18,578 --> 00:01:20,747 This series take us deep into the life 34 00:01:20,747 --> 00:01:22,782 of one of the most indelible figures 35 00:01:22,782 --> 00:01:24,417 of the 20th century, 36 00:01:24,417 --> 00:01:26,519 showing us the true nature of the man 37 00:01:26,519 --> 00:01:28,288 who called himself "The Greatest" 38 00:01:28,288 --> 00:01:29,756 and proved it. 39 00:01:29,756 --> 00:01:33,159 Today's discussion, simply titled "Ali: The Man," 40 00:01:33,159 --> 00:01:36,029 will explore the humanity of Muhammad Ali 41 00:01:36,029 --> 00:01:37,464 as a loving father, 42 00:01:37,464 --> 00:01:38,865 an advocate for peace, 43 00:01:38,865 --> 00:01:41,267 and an inspirational voice of pride 44 00:01:41,267 --> 00:01:44,204 and self-affirmation in the black community. 45 00:01:44,204 --> 00:01:45,638 In just a few moments, 46 00:01:45,638 --> 00:01:48,141 we'll show you the introduction to the film. 47 00:01:48,141 --> 00:01:51,711 Then, senior writer for The Undefeated, Jesse Washington, 48 00:01:51,711 --> 00:01:53,513 will moderate a conversation 49 00:01:53,513 --> 00:01:55,515 with co-director Ken Burns, 50 00:01:55,515 --> 00:01:57,884 Muhammad Ali's daughter, Rasheda Ali, 51 00:01:57,884 --> 00:02:01,154 and author and sports columnist, Howard Bryant. 52 00:02:01,154 --> 00:02:03,089 Thank you for joining us this evening 53 00:02:03,089 --> 00:02:05,959 and please enjoy this evening's discussion. 54 00:02:05,959 --> 00:02:07,427 And don't forget to tune in 55 00:02:07,427 --> 00:02:09,295 to the premiere of "Muhammad Ali" 56 00:02:09,295 --> 00:02:13,967 on September 19th at 8:00 PM Eastern Time on PBS 57 00:02:19,706 --> 00:02:21,608 - Can I have some of your corn flakes? 58 00:02:22,742 --> 00:02:24,010 Oh, I don't want none. 59 00:02:24,010 --> 00:02:25,845 I won't take none, I won't take any. 60 00:02:25,845 --> 00:02:28,681 I won't eat any if you don't want me to. 61 00:02:28,681 --> 00:02:29,516 Oh, look at the pretty horsey! 62 00:02:29,516 --> 00:02:31,784 Is that a white horse? 63 00:02:31,784 --> 00:02:32,719 See? 64 00:02:32,719 --> 00:02:33,953 Stand up, look over there. 65 00:02:33,953 --> 00:02:35,922 Stand up, you gotta stand up (indistinct). 66 00:02:37,157 --> 00:02:39,559 (indistinct) 67 00:02:43,129 --> 00:02:43,963 What? 68 00:02:46,866 --> 00:02:49,636 (crowd cheering) 69 00:02:54,107 --> 00:02:56,142 - My earliest memories that I can think of 70 00:02:56,142 --> 00:02:59,345 as a child with my father are walking through airports 71 00:02:59,345 --> 00:03:00,780 and being in crowds, 72 00:03:00,780 --> 00:03:04,217 and feeling the vibrations of people's clapping 73 00:03:04,217 --> 00:03:06,019 and shouts in my chest. 74 00:03:06,019 --> 00:03:07,787 And just looking at my dad, 75 00:03:07,787 --> 00:03:09,589 like "Who is this person?" 76 00:03:10,823 --> 00:03:13,560 And it was all the time, anywhere we went. 77 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:14,727 "You're the greatest, we love you!" 78 00:03:14,727 --> 00:03:17,263 And the clapping and "Muhammad!" 79 00:03:17,263 --> 00:03:18,565 - Ali Bomaye! 80 00:03:18,565 --> 00:03:20,066 Ali Bomaye! 81 00:03:20,066 --> 00:03:21,267 - [Crowd] Ali! 82 00:03:21,267 --> 00:03:22,335 Bomaye! 83 00:03:22,335 --> 00:03:23,570 Ali! 84 00:03:23,570 --> 00:03:25,004 Bomaye! 85 00:03:25,004 --> 00:03:27,240 - We now think of Muhammad Ali 86 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,275 as this vulnerable guy, 87 00:03:29,275 --> 00:03:31,010 lighting the torch in Atlanta 88 00:03:31,010 --> 00:03:33,880 and everybody on the globe loves him. 89 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:35,114 Black people like him, 90 00:03:35,114 --> 00:03:35,949 white people. 91 00:03:35,949 --> 00:03:37,517 He's a universal hero, 92 00:03:37,517 --> 00:03:40,687 almost in a religious way, like the Buddha. 93 00:03:41,854 --> 00:03:43,489 But when he was in the midst of his career, 94 00:03:43,489 --> 00:03:44,757 and not just in the early bit, 95 00:03:44,757 --> 00:03:47,460 he was incredibly divisive. 96 00:03:47,460 --> 00:03:50,196 - Boo, yell, scream, throw peanuts, 97 00:03:50,196 --> 00:03:51,764 but whatever you do, 98 00:03:51,764 --> 00:03:54,100 pay to get in. 99 00:03:54,100 --> 00:03:55,735 - People hated him, 100 00:03:55,735 --> 00:03:57,003 whether it was along racial lines, 101 00:03:57,003 --> 00:03:58,738 class lines, Vietnam lines, 102 00:03:58,738 --> 00:04:00,707 political lines, religious lines, 103 00:04:00,707 --> 00:04:02,175 or they just couldn't stand him. 104 00:04:02,175 --> 00:04:03,710 And people, of course, had the opposite 105 00:04:03,710 --> 00:04:04,811 and this was, "I loved him! 106 00:04:04,811 --> 00:04:06,145 "Loved him!" 107 00:04:06,145 --> 00:04:08,748 (upbeat music) But you had an opinion 108 00:04:08,748 --> 00:04:09,582 about him. 109 00:04:14,721 --> 00:04:17,390 - (indistinct) 110 00:04:23,396 --> 00:04:27,267 Look how pretty I am. 111 00:04:27,267 --> 00:04:28,568 The long, trimmed legs, 112 00:04:28,568 --> 00:04:29,502 and the beautiful arms, 113 00:04:29,502 --> 00:04:31,037 and a pretty nose and mouth. 114 00:04:31,037 --> 00:04:32,438 I know I'm a pretty man. 115 00:04:32,438 --> 00:04:33,673 I know I'm pretty. 116 00:04:33,673 --> 00:04:35,208 You don't have to tell me I'm pretty. 117 00:04:35,208 --> 00:04:37,143 - [Ali V.O] I'm cocky, I'm proud. 118 00:04:37,143 --> 00:04:38,945 - You never talk about who gon' stop me, 119 00:04:38,945 --> 00:04:40,446 'case ain't nobody gonna stop me! 120 00:04:40,446 --> 00:04:41,881 - I say what I wanted to say! 121 00:04:41,881 --> 00:04:44,117 It ain't no more big niggas talking like this. 122 00:04:45,151 --> 00:04:47,020 - He was a pioneer. 123 00:04:47,020 --> 00:04:48,588 He was a revolutionary. 124 00:04:48,588 --> 00:04:50,390 He was a ground breaker. 125 00:04:50,390 --> 00:04:54,827 A guy known simply as "The Greatest." 126 00:04:54,827 --> 00:04:57,196 - I am the greatest! 127 00:04:57,196 --> 00:04:58,931 - [Ali V.O] I've rassled with alligators, 128 00:04:58,931 --> 00:05:00,667 I've tussled with a whale. 129 00:05:00,667 --> 00:05:02,535 I done handcuffed lightning, 130 00:05:02,535 --> 00:05:03,936 and put thunder in jail. 131 00:05:03,936 --> 00:05:05,271 You know I'm bad! 132 00:05:07,940 --> 00:05:09,709 I can drown the drink of water 133 00:05:09,709 --> 00:05:11,244 and kill a dead tree. 134 00:05:11,244 --> 00:05:13,179 - This will be no contest. 135 00:05:13,179 --> 00:05:15,348 - [Ali V.O] Wait 'til you see Muhammad Ali. 136 00:05:17,150 --> 00:05:18,685 - To have that chutzpah 137 00:05:18,685 --> 00:05:22,255 and to be a black man in America was just outlandish. 138 00:05:23,356 --> 00:05:24,691 - "Muhammad" means "worthy of all praises;" 139 00:05:24,691 --> 00:05:26,793 and "Ali" means "most high." 140 00:05:26,793 --> 00:05:28,161 - And I just don't think 141 00:05:28,161 --> 00:05:29,896 I should go 10,000 miles in there 142 00:05:29,896 --> 00:05:32,398 and shoot some black people that never called me nigger. 143 00:05:32,398 --> 00:05:33,933 I just can't shoot 'em. 144 00:05:33,933 --> 00:05:36,135 - I always wonder why Miss America was always white, 145 00:05:36,135 --> 00:05:37,270 Santa Claus is white, 146 00:05:37,270 --> 00:05:38,304 White Swan Soap, 147 00:05:38,304 --> 00:05:39,505 King White Soap, 148 00:05:39,505 --> 00:05:41,107 White Cloud tissue paper, 149 00:05:41,107 --> 00:05:42,375 and everything bad was black. 150 00:05:42,375 --> 00:05:44,777 Black cat was the bad luck. 151 00:05:44,777 --> 00:05:47,547 And if I threaten you, I'm going to blackmail you. 152 00:05:48,748 --> 00:05:50,817 I said, "Mama, why don't they call it whitemail? 153 00:05:50,817 --> 00:05:51,984 "They lie too." 154 00:05:51,984 --> 00:05:53,453 - I loved being around him. 155 00:05:53,453 --> 00:05:56,356 I love being around Muhammad Ali. 156 00:05:56,356 --> 00:06:00,460 - You gon' float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. 157 00:06:01,394 --> 00:06:03,396 Rumble, young man, rumble. 158 00:06:04,497 --> 00:06:06,566 - The price of freedom comes high. 159 00:06:06,566 --> 00:06:08,701 I have paid but I am free. 160 00:06:13,773 --> 00:06:15,942 - [Announcer] The winner and still 161 00:06:15,942 --> 00:06:20,947 the heavyweight champion of the world. 162 00:06:37,830 --> 00:06:40,233 - [Narrator] He called himself "The Greatest" 163 00:06:40,233 --> 00:06:43,236 and then proved it to the entire world. 164 00:06:43,236 --> 00:06:47,173 He was a master at what is called "the sweet science;" 165 00:06:47,173 --> 00:06:51,477 the brutal and, sometimes, beautiful art of boxing. 166 00:06:51,477 --> 00:06:55,081 Heavyweight champion at just 22 years old, 167 00:06:55,081 --> 00:06:56,582 he wrote his own rules 168 00:06:56,582 --> 00:06:58,985 in the ring and in his life, 169 00:06:58,985 --> 00:07:00,720 infuriating his critics, 170 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:02,121 baffling his opponents, 171 00:07:02,121 --> 00:07:04,724 and riveting millions of fans. 172 00:07:06,259 --> 00:07:08,594 At the height of the Civil Rights Movement, 173 00:07:08,594 --> 00:07:11,097 he joined a separatist religious sect 174 00:07:11,097 --> 00:07:12,999 whose leader would, for a time, 175 00:07:12,999 --> 00:07:14,934 dominate both his personal life 176 00:07:14,934 --> 00:07:17,437 and his boxing career. 177 00:07:17,437 --> 00:07:20,940 He spoke his mind and stood on principle, 178 00:07:20,940 --> 00:07:22,809 even when it cost him his livelihood. 179 00:07:23,910 --> 00:07:26,579 He redefined black manhood, 180 00:07:26,579 --> 00:07:29,549 yet belittled his greatest rival using 181 00:07:29,549 --> 00:07:31,984 the racist language of the Jim Crow South, 182 00:07:31,984 --> 00:07:33,519 in which he had been raised. 183 00:07:35,521 --> 00:07:37,023 Banished for his beliefs, 184 00:07:37,023 --> 00:07:39,158 he returned to boxing an underdog, 185 00:07:39,158 --> 00:07:41,327 reclaimed his title twice, 186 00:07:41,327 --> 00:07:45,398 and became the most famous man on earth. 187 00:07:45,398 --> 00:07:49,535 He craved adulation his whole life, 188 00:07:49,535 --> 00:07:51,737 seeking crowds on street corners, 189 00:07:51,737 --> 00:07:53,039 in hotel lobbies, 190 00:07:53,039 --> 00:07:54,941 on airport tarmacs, 191 00:07:54,941 --> 00:07:57,143 everywhere he went, 192 00:07:57,143 --> 00:08:00,279 and reveled in the uninhibited joy 193 00:08:00,279 --> 00:08:02,148 he brought each adoring fan. 194 00:08:04,116 --> 00:08:06,352 He earned a massive fortune, 195 00:08:06,352 --> 00:08:08,087 spent it freely, 196 00:08:08,087 --> 00:08:11,190 and gave generously to family, friends, 197 00:08:11,190 --> 00:08:14,126 even strangers, anyone in need. 198 00:08:15,228 --> 00:08:17,830 "Service to others," he often said, 199 00:08:17,830 --> 00:08:22,401 "is the rent you pay for your room here on earth." 200 00:08:22,401 --> 00:08:25,872 Even after his body began to betray him 201 00:08:25,872 --> 00:08:28,708 and his brain had absorbed too many blows, 202 00:08:28,708 --> 00:08:30,109 he fought on, 203 00:08:30,109 --> 00:08:33,312 unable to go without the attention and drama 204 00:08:33,312 --> 00:08:34,747 that accompanied each bout. 205 00:08:36,649 --> 00:08:39,285 Later, slowed and silenced by 206 00:08:39,285 --> 00:08:41,420 a cruel and crippling disease, 207 00:08:41,420 --> 00:08:44,657 he found refuge in his faith; 208 00:08:44,657 --> 00:08:47,760 becoming a symbol of peace and hope on every continent. 209 00:08:49,962 --> 00:08:53,566 "Muhammad Ali was," the novelist, Norman Mailer wrote, 210 00:08:53,566 --> 00:08:56,235 "the very spirit of the 20th century." 211 00:08:58,237 --> 00:08:59,872 - I've always wanted to be one black one 212 00:08:59,872 --> 00:09:02,708 who got big or your white televisions, 213 00:09:02,708 --> 00:09:04,076 on your white newspapers, 214 00:09:04,076 --> 00:09:05,444 on your satellites, 215 00:09:05,444 --> 00:09:06,579 million dollar checks, 216 00:09:06,579 --> 00:09:08,347 and still look you in your face, 217 00:09:08,347 --> 00:09:09,582 and tell you the truth, 218 00:09:09,582 --> 00:09:12,919 and 100% stay with and represent my people, 219 00:09:12,919 --> 00:09:14,587 and not leave them and sell them out 220 00:09:14,587 --> 00:09:15,454 because I'm rich, 221 00:09:15,454 --> 00:09:16,389 and stay with them. 222 00:09:16,389 --> 00:09:17,623 That was my purpose. 223 00:09:17,623 --> 00:09:19,091 I'm here and I'm showing the world 224 00:09:19,091 --> 00:09:21,894 that you can be here and still free, 225 00:09:21,894 --> 00:09:23,162 and stay yourself, 226 00:09:23,162 --> 00:09:24,997 and get respect from the world. 227 00:09:36,509 --> 00:09:38,144 - Welcome, welcome, welcome everyone, 228 00:09:38,144 --> 00:09:40,279 I'm Jesse Washington from The Undefeated. 229 00:09:40,279 --> 00:09:42,515 Really pleased to be here today 230 00:09:42,515 --> 00:09:45,985 to discuss this wonderful new film, "Muhammad Ali." 231 00:09:45,985 --> 00:09:47,887 I'd like to introduce our panelists. 232 00:09:47,887 --> 00:09:51,991 First, we have the director himself, Ken Burns; 233 00:09:51,991 --> 00:09:54,160 the prolific documentary filmmaker 234 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,296 whose credits are far too numerous to name here. 235 00:09:57,296 --> 00:09:59,665 But he is bringing us this new look 236 00:09:59,665 --> 00:10:03,536 at the life and meaning of "The Greatest of All Time." 237 00:10:03,536 --> 00:10:04,737 I think it's important to note 238 00:10:04,737 --> 00:10:05,972 that there's a lot of talk 239 00:10:05,972 --> 00:10:07,740 about GOAT this and GOAT that these days, 240 00:10:07,740 --> 00:10:09,008 it's become almost a cliche. 241 00:10:09,008 --> 00:10:11,210 We've got herds of GOATs everywhere, 242 00:10:11,210 --> 00:10:14,480 but there is only one "Greatest of All Time" 243 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,450 when it comes to athletics in this country 244 00:10:17,450 --> 00:10:18,718 forever and ever, 245 00:10:18,718 --> 00:10:20,152 and that is Muhammad Ali. 246 00:10:20,152 --> 00:10:21,687 Ken Burns, welcome 247 00:10:21,687 --> 00:10:23,322 and we're glad to have you. 248 00:10:23,322 --> 00:10:24,323 - Thank you, Jesse. 249 00:10:24,323 --> 00:10:25,424 It's great to be working with you 250 00:10:25,424 --> 00:10:26,892 and The Undefeated, 251 00:10:26,892 --> 00:10:30,329 and on behalf of Sarah Burns and David McMahon, 252 00:10:30,329 --> 00:10:31,697 who are the two co-directors 253 00:10:31,697 --> 00:10:33,366 and those two are the writers, 254 00:10:33,366 --> 00:10:36,535 we're so grateful to be part of this. 255 00:10:36,535 --> 00:10:38,504 Thank you. - Thank you. 256 00:10:38,504 --> 00:10:41,340 We also have Howard Bryant here with us, 257 00:10:41,340 --> 00:10:44,210 the journalist and author of nine books. 258 00:10:44,210 --> 00:10:46,979 Most recently, his most latest book, 259 00:10:46,979 --> 00:10:51,150 is "Full Dissidence: Notes From an Uneven Playing Field." 260 00:10:51,150 --> 00:10:54,820 And Howard is a longtime columnist at ESPN, 261 00:10:54,820 --> 00:10:58,224 has worked at many other newspaper outlets 262 00:10:58,224 --> 00:10:59,458 in this country. 263 00:10:59,458 --> 00:11:00,693 All of the best ones, if I may say. 264 00:11:00,693 --> 00:11:03,295 And is also a newly minted contributor 265 00:11:03,295 --> 00:11:04,830 to Meadowlark Media, 266 00:11:04,830 --> 00:11:07,967 where we will be seeing more of his work 267 00:11:07,967 --> 00:11:10,302 in a variety of other forms and platforms. 268 00:11:10,302 --> 00:11:12,371 Howard, welcome. - Thank you, Jesse. 269 00:11:12,371 --> 00:11:15,241 Good seeing you again. - Good to see you too. 270 00:11:15,241 --> 00:11:18,477 And also we have Rasheda Ali, 271 00:11:18,477 --> 00:11:21,480 an author, speaker, humanitarian, 272 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,549 and daughter of Muhammad Ali. 273 00:11:23,549 --> 00:11:26,285 Rasheda, it's great to have you here today. 274 00:11:26,285 --> 00:11:27,553 - Hi Jesse, thanks for having me. 275 00:11:27,553 --> 00:11:29,655 I'm honored. - You're very welcome. 276 00:11:29,655 --> 00:11:31,457 We're honored to be here with you. 277 00:11:31,457 --> 00:11:34,260 So wonderful film, Ken. 278 00:11:34,260 --> 00:11:36,395 It was great to see an early version of it. 279 00:11:36,395 --> 00:11:39,298 I was enraptured and riveted by your work. 280 00:11:39,298 --> 00:11:41,567 And the first thing I'd like to ask you is 281 00:11:41,567 --> 00:11:44,637 that you're approaching this giant, 282 00:11:44,637 --> 00:11:46,072 so much has been written, 283 00:11:46,072 --> 00:11:48,207 so much has been said. 284 00:11:48,207 --> 00:11:49,775 Films upon films, 285 00:11:49,775 --> 00:11:51,110 books upon books. 286 00:11:51,110 --> 00:11:54,346 What is it that you wanted accomplish 287 00:11:54,346 --> 00:11:56,449 when you started out with this film, 288 00:11:56,449 --> 00:11:57,983 and now that it's finished 289 00:11:57,983 --> 00:12:00,786 and about to be released on September 19th on PBS, 290 00:12:00,786 --> 00:12:02,421 what is it that you want people to learn 291 00:12:02,421 --> 00:12:04,957 from this film about Ali? 292 00:12:04,957 --> 00:12:07,426 - Oh, that's a complicated question. 293 00:12:07,426 --> 00:12:10,730 Thank you, and Sarah and Dave would probably have 294 00:12:10,730 --> 00:12:13,733 different variations of that question... 295 00:12:13,733 --> 00:12:16,135 Or the answer to that question. 296 00:12:16,135 --> 00:12:17,203 You know, we're drawn to him. 297 00:12:17,203 --> 00:12:18,971 He's a spellbinding, 298 00:12:18,971 --> 00:12:20,539 hugely important person 299 00:12:20,539 --> 00:12:22,341 in the history of the United States. 300 00:12:22,341 --> 00:12:23,976 It's not just sports. 301 00:12:23,976 --> 00:12:25,878 I'm drawn to him personally. 302 00:12:25,878 --> 00:12:27,613 In the course of my professional life, 303 00:12:27,613 --> 00:12:30,950 I've gotten to know a lot of amazing Americans. 304 00:12:30,950 --> 00:12:33,753 Only two others come to mind that have 305 00:12:33,753 --> 00:12:35,855 a sense of charisma, 306 00:12:35,855 --> 00:12:37,089 a sense of purpose, 307 00:12:37,089 --> 00:12:39,592 a sense of being able to embody us 308 00:12:39,592 --> 00:12:41,427 in all of our contradictions. 309 00:12:41,427 --> 00:12:42,762 One of them is Abraham Lincoln 310 00:12:42,762 --> 00:12:44,330 and the other is Louis Armstrong, 311 00:12:44,330 --> 00:12:48,567 and Muhammad Ali is in that select group 312 00:12:48,567 --> 00:12:50,436 of someone who's just personally touched me. 313 00:12:50,436 --> 00:12:53,005 I'm not talking about where he is placed 314 00:12:53,005 --> 00:12:54,707 in the pantheon of sportspeople. 315 00:12:54,707 --> 00:12:56,675 I agree with you Jesse, he's at the top. 316 00:12:58,244 --> 00:13:00,246 There are a lot of films about him. 317 00:13:00,246 --> 00:13:03,883 There are a lot of really, really good films about him 318 00:13:03,883 --> 00:13:06,485 but I think what we wanted to do is do 319 00:13:06,485 --> 00:13:10,089 a true biography from his boyhood in Louisville, 320 00:13:10,089 --> 00:13:11,924 in Jim Crow America, 321 00:13:11,924 --> 00:13:16,929 up to his death not too many years ago by Parkinson's 322 00:13:18,564 --> 00:13:19,965 and everything in between. 323 00:13:19,965 --> 00:13:22,001 So not just a couple of fights, 324 00:13:22,001 --> 00:13:25,504 there's two dozen that are treated in detail, 325 00:13:25,504 --> 00:13:28,140 not just his difficulties 326 00:13:28,140 --> 00:13:29,975 with the United States over 327 00:13:29,975 --> 00:13:31,911 the draft and induction, 328 00:13:31,911 --> 00:13:34,680 not just this or that, but the whole thing, 329 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:38,017 and try to get a sense of who the whole man is, 330 00:13:38,017 --> 00:13:39,285 warts and all, 331 00:13:39,285 --> 00:13:41,654 as the introduction, I think, suggested. 332 00:13:41,654 --> 00:13:43,322 And it would be so presumptuous 333 00:13:43,322 --> 00:13:44,290 of any one of us, 334 00:13:44,290 --> 00:13:45,758 Sarah, Dave, or me, 335 00:13:45,758 --> 00:13:48,661 to say this is "What you should take away." 336 00:13:48,661 --> 00:13:50,563 We just want to tell a good 337 00:13:50,563 --> 00:13:51,730 and complicated story 338 00:13:51,730 --> 00:13:55,201 that is able to contain contradictions. 339 00:13:55,201 --> 00:13:58,337 But at the end, you begin to realize 340 00:13:58,337 --> 00:14:01,273 how extraordinarily gifted this man was, 341 00:14:01,273 --> 00:14:03,542 not just at his chosen profession, 342 00:14:03,542 --> 00:14:06,478 but at the profession of being a human being. 343 00:14:06,478 --> 00:14:08,681 You know, I've said this a few times; 344 00:14:08,681 --> 00:14:11,250 It's always really good 345 00:14:11,250 --> 00:14:13,919 if you leave this planet being 346 00:14:13,919 --> 00:14:16,722 the most beloved person on this planet. 347 00:14:16,722 --> 00:14:19,725 And that's what all of us should be tilting 348 00:14:19,725 --> 00:14:21,327 towards if we can. 349 00:14:21,327 --> 00:14:23,329 He did, and he was, 350 00:14:23,329 --> 00:14:26,332 and I'm interested in who that is. 351 00:14:26,332 --> 00:14:28,400 I'm interested in it, warts and all. 352 00:14:29,401 --> 00:14:31,303 But at the end of the day, 353 00:14:32,404 --> 00:14:34,206 it's about love. 354 00:14:34,206 --> 00:14:36,442 That's what he understood. 355 00:14:36,442 --> 00:14:40,779 And there are people who spend a long time trying 356 00:14:40,779 --> 00:14:42,114 to get at that, 357 00:14:42,114 --> 00:14:43,616 he got at it. 358 00:14:43,616 --> 00:14:44,817 He understood it. 359 00:14:44,817 --> 00:14:46,752 And I'm so happy that Rasheda is here 360 00:14:46,752 --> 00:14:49,088 because she carries not only 361 00:14:49,088 --> 00:14:52,658 whatever genetics, the bloodline, 362 00:14:52,658 --> 00:14:57,663 but she also carries this sense of love and spirit. 363 00:14:58,831 --> 00:15:01,200 And having Rasheda close to me is like 364 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,769 he's still here in a way. 365 00:15:06,238 --> 00:15:07,473 - Absolutely. 366 00:15:07,473 --> 00:15:10,876 So Rasheda, I was struck as I watched the film, 367 00:15:10,876 --> 00:15:13,112 and as I thought about our world today, 368 00:15:13,112 --> 00:15:14,647 how we still... 369 00:15:15,781 --> 00:15:19,351 Islam has not truly been accepted in America. 370 00:15:19,351 --> 00:15:20,853 I was struck by the fact that 371 00:15:20,853 --> 00:15:22,788 so many people mispronounced 372 00:15:22,788 --> 00:15:24,189 the word "Muslim" in the movie, 373 00:15:24,189 --> 00:15:27,326 or mispronounce the word "Islam," you know? 374 00:15:27,326 --> 00:15:29,662 And so, what is it that you might hope 375 00:15:29,662 --> 00:15:32,364 or think that America can learn 376 00:15:32,364 --> 00:15:34,566 about your father and his relationship 377 00:15:34,566 --> 00:15:36,402 to his faith from this film? 378 00:15:38,070 --> 00:15:39,338 - Thank you so much. 379 00:15:39,338 --> 00:15:40,339 First of all, I wanna thank you so much, Ken 380 00:15:40,339 --> 00:15:41,473 for those beautiful words. 381 00:15:41,473 --> 00:15:42,741 And thank you, Jesse. 382 00:15:43,976 --> 00:15:45,577 I think my dad, 383 00:15:45,577 --> 00:15:47,446 he led by example. 384 00:15:47,446 --> 00:15:50,582 So he was a great role model, 385 00:15:50,582 --> 00:15:52,318 not just for us 386 00:15:52,318 --> 00:15:53,585 but for the whole world, 387 00:15:53,585 --> 00:15:56,055 because I think when my dad did was 388 00:15:56,055 --> 00:15:58,257 he wanted to urge us to be 389 00:15:58,257 --> 00:15:59,892 the best version of ourselves 390 00:15:59,892 --> 00:16:01,994 and to push ourselves to become better 391 00:16:01,994 --> 00:16:04,296 than who we think we are. 392 00:16:04,296 --> 00:16:08,434 So he adopted this faith and he was... 393 00:16:08,434 --> 00:16:10,436 It was full circle. 394 00:16:10,436 --> 00:16:12,338 He really was passionate about joining 395 00:16:12,338 --> 00:16:13,539 the Nation of Islam, 396 00:16:13,539 --> 00:16:16,108 and it gave him so much courage and bravery 397 00:16:16,108 --> 00:16:19,979 at a time where his people were being lynched and killed, 398 00:16:19,979 --> 00:16:21,413 and segregation was going on, 399 00:16:21,413 --> 00:16:24,583 and there was so much hate against our people. 400 00:16:24,583 --> 00:16:27,453 He felt that this religion was the one 401 00:16:27,453 --> 00:16:30,222 that was going to give him the power 402 00:16:30,222 --> 00:16:33,659 to believe in himself and his people. 403 00:16:33,659 --> 00:16:36,996 And so, he did all that thinking of his people. 404 00:16:36,996 --> 00:16:39,331 His people were always something that he had in mind 405 00:16:39,331 --> 00:16:40,766 whenever he did things 406 00:16:40,766 --> 00:16:44,136 because anything he did, he empowered them. 407 00:16:44,136 --> 00:16:47,106 And so, as the religion evolved, 408 00:16:47,106 --> 00:16:52,111 he became even more spiritual as a man 409 00:16:53,278 --> 00:16:57,416 because this religion, Islam made him not only 410 00:16:58,951 --> 00:17:00,552 strong mentally, 411 00:17:00,552 --> 00:17:02,988 but it gave him the courage to do things 412 00:17:02,988 --> 00:17:06,759 that I don't think he normally would have been able to do 413 00:17:06,759 --> 00:17:10,362 if he didn't have his religion backing him up, 414 00:17:10,362 --> 00:17:11,196 so to speak. 415 00:17:11,196 --> 00:17:12,698 So he felt like.... 416 00:17:12,698 --> 00:17:15,534 And there are clips in this film 417 00:17:15,534 --> 00:17:16,902 that I've never seen before, 418 00:17:16,902 --> 00:17:19,905 and I've seen probably thousands in my life. 419 00:17:19,905 --> 00:17:22,007 I mean, I've just over and over. 420 00:17:22,007 --> 00:17:23,976 But there were really interesting clips 421 00:17:23,976 --> 00:17:27,646 and I know most of you have already seen the clip 422 00:17:27,646 --> 00:17:29,481 where he says I'll face gunfire 423 00:17:29,481 --> 00:17:32,351 without denouncing my faith and my religion. 424 00:17:32,351 --> 00:17:36,188 So if we can all adopt his passion 425 00:17:36,188 --> 00:17:40,826 and his love for faith and in God, 426 00:17:40,826 --> 00:17:42,761 or some higher power, 427 00:17:42,761 --> 00:17:46,665 I think we'll all already be that much closer 428 00:17:46,665 --> 00:17:50,269 to getting what we're all seeking, 429 00:17:50,269 --> 00:17:52,304 and Ken said it so well, 430 00:17:52,304 --> 00:17:53,739 and that's love. 431 00:17:53,739 --> 00:17:55,774 I think that's what makes the world go round. 432 00:17:57,276 --> 00:18:00,179 My dad adopted a religion 433 00:18:00,179 --> 00:18:01,780 that was not socially accepted. 434 00:18:01,780 --> 00:18:03,248 It's still not. 435 00:18:03,248 --> 00:18:07,719 So I think our passion to be able 436 00:18:07,719 --> 00:18:11,056 to become role models for those 437 00:18:11,056 --> 00:18:14,359 who still have Islamophobia on their minds, 438 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,763 we have to remember that people are looking 439 00:18:17,763 --> 00:18:20,265 at us as Muslim all the time, 440 00:18:20,265 --> 00:18:21,867 trying to find out, 441 00:18:21,867 --> 00:18:24,436 when are we going to make a mistake? 442 00:18:24,436 --> 00:18:26,138 And when are we going to commit a crime? 443 00:18:26,138 --> 00:18:30,042 So I think my dad felt his responsibility 444 00:18:30,042 --> 00:18:32,211 as a Muslim was to become 445 00:18:32,211 --> 00:18:35,914 a role model for people who are Muslim, 446 00:18:35,914 --> 00:18:37,382 but not only that, 447 00:18:37,382 --> 00:18:39,451 but for people who are trying to find themselves, 448 00:18:39,451 --> 00:18:40,953 trying to find their faith, 449 00:18:40,953 --> 00:18:42,821 and I think he did a very good job of that. 450 00:18:42,821 --> 00:18:45,157 He wasn't perfect, as we know that. 451 00:18:45,157 --> 00:18:47,226 (indistinct) humanize my dad. 452 00:18:47,226 --> 00:18:50,028 In this film, he wasn't perfect. 453 00:18:50,028 --> 00:18:52,364 He was human, just like all of us. 454 00:18:59,338 --> 00:19:00,439 - Jesse, you're muted. 455 00:19:02,174 --> 00:19:03,709 - Thank you. 456 00:19:03,709 --> 00:19:05,611 Those contradictions are fascinating. 457 00:19:07,179 --> 00:19:09,715 How a man can emanate so much love 458 00:19:09,715 --> 00:19:11,583 and still do what he did to some 459 00:19:11,583 --> 00:19:13,652 of these people in the ring is 460 00:19:13,652 --> 00:19:15,921 one of the most interesting journeys 461 00:19:15,921 --> 00:19:17,422 that there is in the field. 462 00:19:17,422 --> 00:19:19,258 Howard, I wanted to ask you, 463 00:19:19,258 --> 00:19:20,692 there can never be another Ali 464 00:19:20,692 --> 00:19:23,295 because of who he was and what he did 465 00:19:23,295 --> 00:19:25,264 at the time that he did it, 466 00:19:25,264 --> 00:19:27,132 in the tumultuous 1960s, 467 00:19:27,132 --> 00:19:29,935 when black people, as a whole, in America, 468 00:19:29,935 --> 00:19:32,604 were taking control of their destiny. 469 00:19:32,604 --> 00:19:36,074 And so, we've just, in 2020, came through 470 00:19:36,074 --> 00:19:40,712 another tumultuous and incredibly moving 471 00:19:40,712 --> 00:19:43,415 and... 472 00:19:43,415 --> 00:19:48,420 Emotional upheaval and a racial reckoning, awakening, 473 00:19:49,288 --> 00:19:50,389 something along those lines. 474 00:19:50,389 --> 00:19:52,858 We're still processing what it was. 475 00:19:52,858 --> 00:19:56,195 Ali doing what he did when he did it... 476 00:19:56,195 --> 00:19:57,729 And now, it's fashionable 477 00:19:57,729 --> 00:20:02,634 for athletes to be "aware" or "activists" 478 00:20:02,634 --> 00:20:04,069 or all this kind of stuff. 479 00:20:04,069 --> 00:20:06,705 And a lot of these young athletes who probably do care 480 00:20:06,705 --> 00:20:10,342 about racial justice don't know Ali's story. 481 00:20:10,342 --> 00:20:13,412 So what lessons do you think Ali 482 00:20:13,412 --> 00:20:15,047 and what he did, 483 00:20:15,047 --> 00:20:17,883 today's athletes should really take 484 00:20:17,883 --> 00:20:19,751 and learn from and use 485 00:20:19,751 --> 00:20:21,987 as they try to use their platforms 486 00:20:21,987 --> 00:20:23,488 as he used his? 487 00:20:23,488 --> 00:20:24,856 - Yeah, well for me, 488 00:20:24,856 --> 00:20:26,858 I just feel like the biggest thing, 489 00:20:26,858 --> 00:20:28,160 when I think about Muhammad, 490 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,696 I always think about risk. 491 00:20:30,696 --> 00:20:32,397 And risk not to himself, 492 00:20:32,397 --> 00:20:37,236 but the type of risk that is very much prevalent today 493 00:20:37,236 --> 00:20:39,137 when it comes to professional athletes, 494 00:20:39,137 --> 00:20:40,806 and that is you are asked to make a deal 495 00:20:40,806 --> 00:20:42,040 when you're a pro athlete. 496 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,876 And that deal is to really separate yourself 497 00:20:44,876 --> 00:20:45,844 from your own people. 498 00:20:45,844 --> 00:20:47,613 You're constantly being asked 499 00:20:47,613 --> 00:20:49,248 not to advocate for black people. 500 00:20:49,248 --> 00:20:51,550 You're constantly asked to hang out 501 00:20:51,550 --> 00:20:52,618 with a different crowd 502 00:20:52,618 --> 00:20:55,621 or you know that in the culture, 503 00:20:55,621 --> 00:20:57,189 being what it is today, 504 00:20:57,189 --> 00:21:02,094 simply advocating for or supporting black people is 505 00:21:02,694 --> 00:21:04,263 a political act. 506 00:21:04,263 --> 00:21:07,366 You know that because the minute somebody says 507 00:21:07,366 --> 00:21:10,235 something that's in support of black people, 508 00:21:10,235 --> 00:21:11,637 it becomes a news story. 509 00:21:11,637 --> 00:21:12,971 Why is it so controversial? 510 00:21:12,971 --> 00:21:14,039 Why is this such a risk? 511 00:21:14,039 --> 00:21:15,274 Why is it such a... 512 00:21:15,274 --> 00:21:17,042 Why are you putting your entire career 513 00:21:17,042 --> 00:21:18,877 in jeopardy simply by saying, 514 00:21:18,877 --> 00:21:23,115 "I support the people of Ferguson or Baltimore or whatever"? 515 00:21:23,115 --> 00:21:25,250 So I think that's one of the things 516 00:21:25,250 --> 00:21:27,319 that needs to be done, 517 00:21:27,319 --> 00:21:30,555 that maybe athletes have a great shot of doing right now, 518 00:21:30,555 --> 00:21:32,491 which is demystifying the idea 519 00:21:32,491 --> 00:21:33,959 of supporting black people, right? 520 00:21:33,959 --> 00:21:38,230 I mean, why is this the defining thing 521 00:21:38,230 --> 00:21:40,966 that can threaten your livelihood? 522 00:21:40,966 --> 00:21:44,436 And so, I think that's one of the biggest things for me 523 00:21:44,436 --> 00:21:45,971 when I think about athletes today. 524 00:21:45,971 --> 00:21:48,640 I think the secondary thing is 525 00:21:50,008 --> 00:21:53,745 the idea of the comparison. 526 00:21:53,745 --> 00:21:56,248 You're not going to compare yourself to this man 527 00:21:56,248 --> 00:21:59,484 and it's not because he was so great, 528 00:21:59,484 --> 00:22:00,719 even though he was; 529 00:22:00,719 --> 00:22:03,889 the real reason is is because what he did 530 00:22:03,889 --> 00:22:05,857 and what Jackie Robinson did, 531 00:22:05,857 --> 00:22:07,526 and what so many before us did, 532 00:22:07,526 --> 00:22:09,961 made it unnecessary for you 533 00:22:09,961 --> 00:22:12,030 to duplicate what he did. 534 00:22:12,030 --> 00:22:16,034 And I think that's the road, 535 00:22:16,034 --> 00:22:17,402 when you think about the Colin Kaepernicks, 536 00:22:17,402 --> 00:22:19,037 when you think about LeBron James, 537 00:22:19,037 --> 00:22:20,339 and you think about Serena Williams, 538 00:22:20,339 --> 00:22:21,873 or whoever else is out there today, 539 00:22:21,873 --> 00:22:23,141 doing their thing, 540 00:22:23,141 --> 00:22:25,410 their paths are just different from his. 541 00:22:25,410 --> 00:22:27,145 And you don't want his path. 542 00:22:27,145 --> 00:22:29,614 You do not want the entire weight 543 00:22:29,614 --> 00:22:31,216 of the federal government 544 00:22:31,216 --> 00:22:33,885 and its people to come down on you. 545 00:22:33,885 --> 00:22:35,620 You don't want what he went through. 546 00:22:35,620 --> 00:22:38,256 And if you have to go through 547 00:22:38,256 --> 00:22:39,358 what he went through, 548 00:22:39,358 --> 00:22:41,360 that says so much more about 549 00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:43,195 what little progress this country has made 550 00:22:43,195 --> 00:22:45,030 than it would say about him. 551 00:22:48,333 --> 00:22:49,835 - Man, thank you. 552 00:22:49,835 --> 00:22:50,902 That's so accurate. 553 00:22:50,902 --> 00:22:53,839 So Ken, I'd like you to setup 554 00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:55,507 this next clip that we're going to watch, 555 00:22:55,507 --> 00:22:59,444 and not to step on your toes here 556 00:22:59,444 --> 00:23:02,047 but it was one of the most meaningful moments 557 00:23:02,047 --> 00:23:03,348 of the film for me. 558 00:23:03,348 --> 00:23:06,752 And really, I was sort of vaguely aware of it, 559 00:23:06,752 --> 00:23:09,087 as much as I've read and seen about Ali, 560 00:23:09,087 --> 00:23:13,258 but it packs such an emotional wallop for me. 561 00:23:13,258 --> 00:23:15,227 So what does this next clip that we're about to see? 562 00:23:15,227 --> 00:23:16,728 - Well, thank you. 563 00:23:16,728 --> 00:23:19,598 Two of our secret weapons in the film are here 564 00:23:19,598 --> 00:23:22,234 with us this evening, Howard and Rasheda, 565 00:23:22,234 --> 00:23:23,468 and they're wonderful. 566 00:23:23,468 --> 00:23:25,404 One of the others is a man named Michael Bentt, 567 00:23:25,404 --> 00:23:27,072 who's a heavyweight fighter 568 00:23:27,072 --> 00:23:30,142 who helps interpret mid fights. 569 00:23:30,142 --> 00:23:32,878 He's mainly, almost his entire presence, 570 00:23:32,878 --> 00:23:35,180 is within the fights to help us 571 00:23:35,180 --> 00:23:38,450 perhaps some of us who don't understand it 572 00:23:38,450 --> 00:23:40,485 and find it just brutal, 573 00:23:40,485 --> 00:23:41,720 understand what it's about. 574 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,188 So this is 1966. 575 00:23:43,188 --> 00:23:45,390 He's been the champ for two years. 576 00:23:45,390 --> 00:23:48,593 He's announced when he won the championship 577 00:23:48,593 --> 00:23:50,162 that he is a Muslim. 578 00:23:50,162 --> 00:23:52,264 It's caused him lots of problems. 579 00:23:52,264 --> 00:23:53,665 He's had his license revoked 580 00:23:53,665 --> 00:23:55,267 in some places in response. 581 00:23:55,267 --> 00:23:59,471 He's now said he is not going to be inducted 582 00:23:59,471 --> 00:24:01,573 into the United States Army, 583 00:24:01,573 --> 00:24:03,942 and he's having a hard time finding fights. 584 00:24:03,942 --> 00:24:04,910 He has to go to Canada, 585 00:24:04,910 --> 00:24:06,178 he goes to Europe, 586 00:24:06,178 --> 00:24:10,348 and then he comes back and he has a fight. 587 00:24:10,348 --> 00:24:12,784 And that's basically what we're going to show you, 588 00:24:12,784 --> 00:24:14,119 is this fight. 589 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:15,353 So please roll the clip. 590 00:24:15,353 --> 00:24:17,289 - [Narrator] After four fights abroad, 591 00:24:17,289 --> 00:24:19,157 Ali's promoters had finally managed 592 00:24:19,157 --> 00:24:21,526 to secure an American venue; 593 00:24:21,526 --> 00:24:24,095 The Astrodome in Houston, Texas. 594 00:24:24,095 --> 00:24:28,033 A brand new and first-of-its-kind domed stadium, 595 00:24:28,033 --> 00:24:30,936 dubbed "The Eighth Wonder of The World." 596 00:24:32,304 --> 00:24:35,474 Ali had agreed to fight Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams, 597 00:24:35,474 --> 00:24:38,009 an army veteran who had once been shot 598 00:24:38,009 --> 00:24:39,144 by a police officer 599 00:24:39,144 --> 00:24:41,480 during a drunk driving arrest. 600 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,951 Williams had knocked out 51 of his 71 opponents. 601 00:24:46,985 --> 00:24:48,553 It would be the largest audience 602 00:24:48,553 --> 00:24:51,156 for an indoor boxing match in history. 603 00:24:56,161 --> 00:25:00,098 - I think his masterpiece is with Cleveland Williams. 604 00:25:00,098 --> 00:25:02,534 That's Picasso, right? 605 00:25:02,534 --> 00:25:04,703 That's Baryshnikov, right? 606 00:25:04,703 --> 00:25:05,670 That's Miles Davis. 607 00:25:06,771 --> 00:25:10,175 He throws like a 10-punch combination, 608 00:25:10,175 --> 00:25:11,643 he's going back with his man. 609 00:25:12,711 --> 00:25:13,545 Now look, 610 00:25:16,248 --> 00:25:18,116 I don't know how to define that. 611 00:25:18,116 --> 00:25:19,584 I'm not a scientist, 612 00:25:19,584 --> 00:25:22,988 but like that kind of artistry will never be seen again. 613 00:25:25,323 --> 00:25:26,725 When he did that, 614 00:25:27,759 --> 00:25:28,960 it looked effortless, 615 00:25:30,462 --> 00:25:35,467 and it looked like he came out of the womb doing that. 616 00:25:39,804 --> 00:25:41,239 - [Narrator] Introducing a new move 617 00:25:41,239 --> 00:25:43,241 he dubbed "The Ali Shuffle," 618 00:25:43,241 --> 00:25:45,710 he peppered Williams with jab after jab, 619 00:25:45,710 --> 00:25:47,178 as the Big Cat struggled 620 00:25:47,178 --> 00:25:48,346 to land a single punch. 621 00:25:50,248 --> 00:25:52,384 Ali floored his challenger three times 622 00:25:52,384 --> 00:25:53,385 in the second round. 623 00:25:54,252 --> 00:25:55,854 "It was a two-fisted assault 624 00:25:55,854 --> 00:25:57,322 "of vicious effectiveness," 625 00:25:57,322 --> 00:25:59,591 wrote frequent critic, Arthur Daley, 626 00:25:59,591 --> 00:26:01,960 who declared that Ali had won over 627 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:02,861 all the doubters. 628 00:26:04,896 --> 00:26:06,398 A minute into the third round, 629 00:26:07,265 --> 00:26:08,934 the referee ended the fight. 630 00:26:11,303 --> 00:26:14,039 (crowd cheering) 631 00:26:17,242 --> 00:26:20,912 - [Announcer] (indistinct) 632 00:26:30,121 --> 00:26:31,856 - Wow, wow. 633 00:26:31,856 --> 00:26:36,127 I mean, so aside from the physical display there, 634 00:26:36,127 --> 00:26:38,430 I'm going to give them a little more context 635 00:26:38,430 --> 00:26:40,365 for the audience for this clip. 636 00:26:40,365 --> 00:26:43,068 In the lead up to this fight, 637 00:26:43,068 --> 00:26:46,271 Ali had recently embraced the Nation of Islam 638 00:26:46,271 --> 00:26:48,306 and had changed his name to Muhammad Ali, 639 00:26:48,306 --> 00:26:51,810 and this boxer refused to call him by his name. 640 00:26:51,810 --> 00:26:53,678 And throughout the whole fight, 641 00:26:53,678 --> 00:26:55,447 Ali is tagging him, and tagging him, 642 00:26:55,447 --> 00:26:57,515 and saying, "What's my name? 643 00:26:57,515 --> 00:26:59,017 "What's my name?" 644 00:26:59,017 --> 00:27:03,622 I found it rather resonant the victim there had a perm 645 00:27:05,390 --> 00:27:06,891 in his hair, 646 00:27:06,891 --> 00:27:10,528 which is a sign of really of us being brainwashed 647 00:27:10,528 --> 00:27:12,397 to want to be more like white people. 648 00:27:12,397 --> 00:27:14,733 And then another really subtle thing 649 00:27:14,733 --> 00:27:16,234 in that clip was 650 00:27:16,234 --> 00:27:17,736 after they called the fight 651 00:27:17,736 --> 00:27:18,870 and Ali went back to his corner, 652 00:27:18,870 --> 00:27:20,505 he turned over his shoulder 653 00:27:20,505 --> 00:27:25,210 and gave this man a look of utter domination and contempt. 654 00:27:26,411 --> 00:27:28,413 And it was just like... 655 00:27:28,413 --> 00:27:31,182 It gave me chills to see it. 656 00:27:31,182 --> 00:27:34,185 So, "Oh, you're not going to use my name, Muhammad Ali? 657 00:27:34,185 --> 00:27:35,353 "You're going to call me Clay? 658 00:27:35,353 --> 00:27:36,621 "Boom, I'm punching in your face. 659 00:27:36,621 --> 00:27:38,089 "You can't do anything about it. 660 00:27:38,089 --> 00:27:39,524 "Now, say my name." 661 00:27:39,524 --> 00:27:42,127 I mean, it was just so powerful to me. 662 00:27:42,127 --> 00:27:45,530 And it gets us to the Nation of Islam, 663 00:27:46,531 --> 00:27:48,566 which was a driving force, 664 00:27:48,566 --> 00:27:50,769 an overriding presence in Ali's life, 665 00:27:50,769 --> 00:27:53,872 and really depicted in great detail, 666 00:27:53,872 --> 00:27:56,441 and historically accurate detail, 667 00:27:56,441 --> 00:27:58,810 painful detail, in this film. 668 00:27:58,810 --> 00:28:01,146 And there's a lot about the Nation 669 00:28:01,146 --> 00:28:02,447 that is problematic. 670 00:28:03,848 --> 00:28:07,318 The historian, Gerald Early calls it a cult. 671 00:28:07,318 --> 00:28:10,455 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar says it's not true Islam. 672 00:28:10,455 --> 00:28:13,725 And yet, it helped to give us 673 00:28:13,725 --> 00:28:15,694 the great mindset 674 00:28:15,694 --> 00:28:19,731 and everything of Muhammad Ali. 675 00:28:19,731 --> 00:28:22,801 And I did not know, Ken, that Elijah Muhammad, 676 00:28:22,801 --> 00:28:24,402 the leader of the Nation of Islam, 677 00:28:24,402 --> 00:28:25,904 gave him that name. 678 00:28:25,904 --> 00:28:28,740 Everyone else was "Something X" or "This X." 679 00:28:28,740 --> 00:28:31,843 So Howard, I would like to ask you, 680 00:28:32,944 --> 00:28:34,446 what would Ali have been 681 00:28:34,446 --> 00:28:36,648 without the Nation of Islam? 682 00:28:36,648 --> 00:28:39,784 Specifically, that brand of black Muslim? 683 00:28:39,784 --> 00:28:42,187 What would Muhammad Ali have been? 684 00:28:42,187 --> 00:28:43,722 - Well, I think that's a great question, 685 00:28:43,722 --> 00:28:45,423 but I would always step back 686 00:28:45,423 --> 00:28:47,892 when I think about Muhammad and I would ask, 687 00:28:47,892 --> 00:28:49,427 "What would he be without Malcolm X?" 688 00:28:49,427 --> 00:28:52,130 I mean, that's the first connection. 689 00:28:52,130 --> 00:28:55,900 And to so many people, 690 00:28:55,900 --> 00:28:57,001 it was... 691 00:28:57,001 --> 00:28:57,936 To so many black people, 692 00:28:57,936 --> 00:28:59,270 it was an articulation. 693 00:28:59,270 --> 00:29:04,008 It was an attempt to recognize that 694 00:29:04,008 --> 00:29:06,177 something's not right here, 695 00:29:06,177 --> 00:29:08,546 in terms of what I'm being taught. 696 00:29:08,546 --> 00:29:10,248 There has to be a counter 697 00:29:10,248 --> 00:29:11,750 to what I'm being taught 698 00:29:11,750 --> 00:29:15,286 because what I know in front of me is not what I feel. 699 00:29:15,286 --> 00:29:18,456 I remember when I was in high school, 700 00:29:18,456 --> 00:29:20,725 my mother gave me a copy... 701 00:29:20,725 --> 00:29:21,659 I didn't even know she had it. 702 00:29:21,659 --> 00:29:23,495 She has a first edition copy 703 00:29:23,495 --> 00:29:24,863 of "The Autobiography of Malcolm X." 704 00:29:24,863 --> 00:29:26,097 And I was like, "Where did this come from?" 705 00:29:26,097 --> 00:29:27,465 It was like in the living room 706 00:29:27,465 --> 00:29:29,134 and she gave it to me. 707 00:29:29,134 --> 00:29:31,669 And when you open it up, she... 708 00:29:31,669 --> 00:29:33,171 My mother as a 17 year old; 709 00:29:33,171 --> 00:29:36,007 all of these sentences are underlined, 710 00:29:36,007 --> 00:29:37,542 underlined, underlined, 711 00:29:37,542 --> 00:29:40,845 and that's what I think about when you think about Muhammad. 712 00:29:40,845 --> 00:29:42,046 There's the articulation. 713 00:29:42,046 --> 00:29:44,282 "I get you," right? 714 00:29:44,282 --> 00:29:45,850 "I understand you, I feel you. 715 00:29:45,850 --> 00:29:47,752 "This is exactly what I see." 716 00:29:47,752 --> 00:29:50,021 And I think that when you think about... 717 00:29:50,021 --> 00:29:51,956 You look at the clip with Cleveland Williams; 718 00:29:51,956 --> 00:29:53,725 here's a guy whose hair is comped 719 00:29:53,725 --> 00:29:56,294 and he's talking about respect. 720 00:29:56,294 --> 00:30:00,532 And so, what the Nation did 721 00:30:00,532 --> 00:30:05,537 for so many black people was to give us an outlet 722 00:30:06,905 --> 00:30:10,241 to say what you're feeling is not preposterous, 723 00:30:10,241 --> 00:30:12,644 and what you're feeling is real, 724 00:30:12,644 --> 00:30:15,713 and we're going to try to give you 725 00:30:15,713 --> 00:30:20,718 some form of roadmap to what we think your true self is, 726 00:30:21,886 --> 00:30:23,087 to what you know your true self is. 727 00:30:23,087 --> 00:30:24,756 Because even if it's not this, 728 00:30:24,756 --> 00:30:26,591 you know it's not what you're actually living 729 00:30:26,591 --> 00:30:27,692 in the United States. 730 00:30:29,227 --> 00:30:31,229 - I think Howard's right. 731 00:30:31,229 --> 00:30:33,965 The courage part of it is so interesting, 732 00:30:33,965 --> 00:30:35,700 that you said earlier. 733 00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:38,670 And while the Nation of Islam was a kind of 734 00:30:38,670 --> 00:30:41,306 classically American hybrid of stuff 735 00:30:41,306 --> 00:30:44,509 and had lots of corruption at its core, 736 00:30:44,509 --> 00:30:47,545 it did offer an alternative narrative 737 00:30:47,545 --> 00:30:50,315 against the old slave narrative, 738 00:30:50,315 --> 00:30:51,549 one of the ones, 739 00:30:51,549 --> 00:30:55,987 and it was liberating for this young man 740 00:30:55,987 --> 00:30:58,189 and he was able to transform it. 741 00:30:58,189 --> 00:31:00,825 And where Malcolm X, who was excluded from it, 742 00:31:00,825 --> 00:31:03,928 was headed both politically and then spiritually is 743 00:31:03,928 --> 00:31:06,998 where Muhammad Ali also got to. 744 00:31:06,998 --> 00:31:09,534 And Rasheda says this in the film, 745 00:31:09,534 --> 00:31:12,470 the fighting is just one aspect. 746 00:31:12,470 --> 00:31:14,873 He just happened to be doing that. 747 00:31:14,873 --> 00:31:17,141 He happens to be greatest athlete. 748 00:31:17,141 --> 00:31:20,812 But it's amazing that this is about, 749 00:31:20,812 --> 00:31:22,947 as he says over and over again, freedom, 750 00:31:22,947 --> 00:31:25,850 and the way he found the path to freedom was 751 00:31:25,850 --> 00:31:28,353 by accepting this new narrative, 752 00:31:28,353 --> 00:31:30,855 this new story of oneself 753 00:31:30,855 --> 00:31:32,657 and one's possibilities 754 00:31:32,657 --> 00:31:34,459 that the Nation of Islam offered. 755 00:31:35,393 --> 00:31:36,661 - Yeah. 756 00:31:36,661 --> 00:31:38,229 Rasheda, what are your perspectives 757 00:31:38,229 --> 00:31:39,731 on the Nation of Islam, 758 00:31:39,731 --> 00:31:43,067 both as a presence in your father's life 759 00:31:43,067 --> 00:31:47,538 and the criticisms that have been leveled against it 760 00:31:49,407 --> 00:31:50,675 in the film and elsewhere? 761 00:31:52,410 --> 00:31:55,747 - The Nation of Islam is not true Islam. 762 00:31:55,747 --> 00:31:58,950 Of course, my dad realized that later, 763 00:31:58,950 --> 00:32:01,119 when he adopted orthodox Islam. 764 00:32:01,119 --> 00:32:02,287 But at the time, 765 00:32:03,721 --> 00:32:08,626 it was important because it really allowed my dad to face 766 00:32:14,832 --> 00:32:17,969 all of the issues that was going on in his life. 767 00:32:17,969 --> 00:32:19,103 Remember, he grew up in Louisville, 768 00:32:19,103 --> 00:32:20,405 so that's the Jim Crow south. 769 00:32:20,405 --> 00:32:23,174 So segregation was worse in the South 770 00:32:23,174 --> 00:32:24,909 than anywhere else. 771 00:32:25,910 --> 00:32:28,780 He felt, in a sense, 772 00:32:28,780 --> 00:32:32,750 like what he did for the United States, 773 00:32:32,750 --> 00:32:35,053 winning a gold medal, didn't mean anything. 774 00:32:35,053 --> 00:32:38,990 So the Nation was very important for him at that time 775 00:32:38,990 --> 00:32:41,626 because it allowed him to face 776 00:32:41,626 --> 00:32:44,862 what was going on in his own hometown, 777 00:32:44,862 --> 00:32:47,565 as well as the rest of the world, head on. 778 00:32:47,565 --> 00:32:49,901 So the Nation was important, 779 00:32:49,901 --> 00:32:52,003 even though it isn't true Islam. 780 00:32:52,003 --> 00:32:53,738 The ideals was important 781 00:32:53,738 --> 00:32:56,240 because it really made daddy understand 782 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,509 the importance of being... 783 00:32:58,509 --> 00:33:00,378 And Malcolm mentioned that too, 784 00:33:00,378 --> 00:33:04,215 is that if you can brainwash someone 785 00:33:04,215 --> 00:33:05,450 to hate themselves, 786 00:33:05,450 --> 00:33:07,251 that's the worst crime you can do. 787 00:33:07,251 --> 00:33:09,153 And that's what my dad was really trying 788 00:33:09,153 --> 00:33:11,322 to allow people to realize, 789 00:33:11,322 --> 00:33:16,327 is that as he got more and more recognition and fame, 790 00:33:17,495 --> 00:33:21,032 he used that to help his people get out 791 00:33:21,032 --> 00:33:22,900 of the situation that they were in. 792 00:33:22,900 --> 00:33:25,036 And so, he did that by saying, 793 00:33:25,036 --> 00:33:26,537 "I'm beautiful, I'm great. 794 00:33:26,537 --> 00:33:27,905 "I'm so pretty." 795 00:33:27,905 --> 00:33:30,141 That's something that African-Americans... 796 00:33:30,141 --> 00:33:31,976 It seems like a small thing to do, 797 00:33:31,976 --> 00:33:34,579 but for an African-American to say 798 00:33:34,579 --> 00:33:37,348 on national TV, "I'm so pretty, I'm great," 799 00:33:37,348 --> 00:33:39,650 that was unheard of back then. 800 00:33:39,650 --> 00:33:42,153 And so, he even got a lot of backlash 801 00:33:42,153 --> 00:33:46,057 from African-Americans who were also athletes 802 00:33:46,057 --> 00:33:47,859 and were saying, "just be quiet." 803 00:33:47,859 --> 00:33:50,028 So my dad was really, in a sense, 804 00:33:50,028 --> 00:33:55,033 telling our people "Wake up. 805 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,535 "We can be beautiful. 806 00:33:57,535 --> 00:33:58,603 "We can be proud 807 00:33:58,603 --> 00:34:00,872 "and we can get what we want." 808 00:34:00,872 --> 00:34:05,209 So that was the importance of my dad and the Nation. 809 00:34:05,209 --> 00:34:07,445 - Yeah, so much of this is liberation. 810 00:34:07,445 --> 00:34:10,548 When you think about the broad definition of that word, 811 00:34:10,548 --> 00:34:12,050 it's liberation. 812 00:34:12,050 --> 00:34:14,919 When you're black, you're taught that you're ugly. 813 00:34:14,919 --> 00:34:15,887 When you think about it, 814 00:34:15,887 --> 00:34:17,622 when you grow up, 815 00:34:17,622 --> 00:34:18,890 and we all know it, right? 816 00:34:18,890 --> 00:34:21,225 Growing up, even growing up around the way, 817 00:34:21,225 --> 00:34:24,162 when black people make fun of each other, 818 00:34:24,162 --> 00:34:28,132 our humor is based in making fun of how you look. 819 00:34:28,132 --> 00:34:30,401 Always making fun of how you look. 820 00:34:30,401 --> 00:34:32,103 And he was one of the people... 821 00:34:32,103 --> 00:34:33,638 Where do you think "black is beautiful" comes from? 822 00:34:33,638 --> 00:34:35,273 It was the counter to this, to say, 823 00:34:35,273 --> 00:34:37,308 "Look, there's another way here." 824 00:34:37,308 --> 00:34:39,077 And our humor is rooted in it. 825 00:34:39,077 --> 00:34:40,745 When you look around, 826 00:34:40,745 --> 00:34:43,448 you walk into a store 827 00:34:43,448 --> 00:34:44,749 and you look at all the magazines, 828 00:34:44,749 --> 00:34:45,716 who's on the cover? 829 00:34:45,716 --> 00:34:46,918 You're not on the cover. 830 00:34:46,918 --> 00:34:49,620 These standards of beauty, they're not you. 831 00:34:49,620 --> 00:34:51,622 Everything about it is not you, right? 832 00:34:51,622 --> 00:34:54,659 You're taught completely to dislike yourself. 833 00:34:54,659 --> 00:34:58,729 And so, as much as the Nation liberated 834 00:34:58,729 --> 00:35:00,698 a lot of black people 835 00:35:00,698 --> 00:35:03,034 in terms of trying to find a pathway 836 00:35:03,034 --> 00:35:04,902 that eventually, in Kareem's case, 837 00:35:04,902 --> 00:35:06,404 in Malcolm's case, in Muhammad's case, 838 00:35:06,404 --> 00:35:08,106 got them to Orthodox Islam, 839 00:35:08,106 --> 00:35:11,442 it also gave you a pathway to pull yourself 840 00:35:11,442 --> 00:35:13,544 out of this idea that 841 00:35:13,544 --> 00:35:15,746 "I'm not worthy in the white world," 842 00:35:15,746 --> 00:35:18,950 that it gave you something to look at 843 00:35:18,950 --> 00:35:20,585 that you could be proud of. 844 00:35:20,585 --> 00:35:21,719 And that's one of the things that 845 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,121 when we looked at Muhammad, 846 00:35:23,121 --> 00:35:24,822 that was the thing that he gave everybody. 847 00:35:24,822 --> 00:35:27,024 He made you feel like 848 00:35:28,259 --> 00:35:29,827 you are as beautiful as he was. 849 00:35:31,129 --> 00:35:33,164 - Unless your name was Joe Louis. 850 00:35:33,164 --> 00:35:34,165 Unless-- - and Joe Frazier. 851 00:35:34,165 --> 00:35:35,600 I was gonna say-- 852 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,835 (speaking over each other) 853 00:35:37,835 --> 00:35:39,103 - What's really ironic about that is 854 00:35:39,103 --> 00:35:42,273 that all the things that Muhammad gave us, 855 00:35:42,273 --> 00:35:44,142 he used against Joe Frazier. 856 00:35:44,142 --> 00:35:46,911 And the cruelty, 857 00:35:46,911 --> 00:35:49,213 He knew what he was doing with Frazier. 858 00:35:49,213 --> 00:35:51,549 I mean, we all knew it and you watch this. 859 00:35:51,549 --> 00:35:53,851 And over time, as you get older, 860 00:35:53,851 --> 00:35:55,419 especially the first fight, 861 00:35:55,419 --> 00:35:58,756 it was essentially two black men pitted 862 00:35:58,756 --> 00:36:00,158 against each other, 863 00:36:00,158 --> 00:36:02,126 but one was supposedly representing "White America," 864 00:36:02,126 --> 00:36:03,060 and that was Frazier, 865 00:36:03,060 --> 00:36:04,262 and he's from North Philly. 866 00:36:04,262 --> 00:36:07,999 So the psychological battle between those two 867 00:36:07,999 --> 00:36:09,433 and the cruelty, 868 00:36:09,433 --> 00:36:12,203 I hate to say it because Muhammad was everything to me, 869 00:36:12,203 --> 00:36:15,973 but the psychological cruelty 870 00:36:15,973 --> 00:36:17,508 on someone that he knew was not 871 00:36:17,508 --> 00:36:21,412 at his intellectual level as well sold a lot of tickets, 872 00:36:21,412 --> 00:36:23,447 but caused a lot of pain as well. 873 00:36:23,447 --> 00:36:24,482 Those fights were real. 874 00:36:24,482 --> 00:36:25,716 And when you watch those fights, 875 00:36:25,716 --> 00:36:26,984 and which is why I can keep talking 876 00:36:26,984 --> 00:36:28,019 about this forever, Ken, 877 00:36:28,019 --> 00:36:29,253 you watch those fights, 878 00:36:29,253 --> 00:36:33,157 you can feel black America right there. 879 00:36:33,157 --> 00:36:34,091 You feel all of it. 880 00:36:34,091 --> 00:36:36,561 I mean, right in your face, 881 00:36:36,561 --> 00:36:38,262 it's just so powerful. 882 00:36:38,262 --> 00:36:41,432 I watch Ali fights just for fun, 10, 20 times a year. 883 00:36:41,432 --> 00:36:42,667 Let's just go... 884 00:36:42,667 --> 00:36:45,369 Even the second fight, I'll watch that one too. 885 00:36:45,369 --> 00:36:48,372 - Yeah, and he also used that tactic, 886 00:36:48,372 --> 00:36:53,377 these inter-black conflicts against George Foreman 887 00:36:54,579 --> 00:36:57,348 and set himself up as the black man. 888 00:36:57,348 --> 00:36:58,916 He always set himself up as the black man 889 00:36:58,916 --> 00:37:00,885 and would diminish these others, 890 00:37:00,885 --> 00:37:02,486 his opponents' blackness, 891 00:37:02,486 --> 00:37:07,491 or exaggerate their blackness in order to disrespect them 892 00:37:08,226 --> 00:37:09,193 and things like that, 893 00:37:09,193 --> 00:37:10,127 and it was... 894 00:37:10,127 --> 00:37:11,696 And at the end of the film, 895 00:37:11,696 --> 00:37:12,730 he says that he regretted it. 896 00:37:12,730 --> 00:37:15,132 And so, he knew he was wrong. 897 00:37:15,132 --> 00:37:18,636 Ken, do you think that this is... 898 00:37:18,636 --> 00:37:21,305 And you're very faithful to telling the story 899 00:37:21,305 --> 00:37:24,842 and not putting your finger on the scale, 900 00:37:24,842 --> 00:37:25,743 your thumb on the scale, 901 00:37:25,743 --> 00:37:27,211 one way or another. 902 00:37:27,211 --> 00:37:31,916 But one thing that really struck me was how young he was 903 00:37:32,783 --> 00:37:34,151 when he developed his identity, 904 00:37:34,151 --> 00:37:37,021 and young men are headstrong and brash, 905 00:37:37,021 --> 00:37:39,924 and plunge forward without considering 906 00:37:39,924 --> 00:37:42,693 the full ramifications of their actions. 907 00:37:42,693 --> 00:37:46,998 Do you think that these cruelties 908 00:37:46,998 --> 00:37:50,935 that he perpetrated on his opponents were strategic, 909 00:37:50,935 --> 00:37:53,504 come from avarice, 910 00:37:53,504 --> 00:37:56,641 trying to make more money, fame, attention, 911 00:37:56,641 --> 00:37:57,742 some of the above? 912 00:37:57,742 --> 00:37:59,777 How would you analyze that? 913 00:37:59,777 --> 00:38:01,012 - It's a good question. 914 00:38:01,012 --> 00:38:03,047 It was important for us to show everything. 915 00:38:03,047 --> 00:38:05,283 I think we live in an unfortunate culture 916 00:38:05,283 --> 00:38:07,752 where everything is on or off, good or bad, 917 00:38:07,752 --> 00:38:09,987 and no life is like that. 918 00:38:09,987 --> 00:38:14,191 And our notions of heroism are so limited. 919 00:38:14,191 --> 00:38:16,093 We think a hero is perfect 920 00:38:16,093 --> 00:38:18,329 and lament that we're in an age where no heroes, 921 00:38:18,329 --> 00:38:23,334 but in fact, heroism is about the negotiation, 922 00:38:23,334 --> 00:38:25,770 even the war, between a person's strengths 923 00:38:25,770 --> 00:38:26,704 and their weaknesses. 924 00:38:26,704 --> 00:38:28,806 This was not a good side. 925 00:38:28,806 --> 00:38:30,374 Todd Boyd says in the film, 926 00:38:30,374 --> 00:38:33,144 "He's using his his power there for evil 927 00:38:33,144 --> 00:38:34,345 "and not for good." 928 00:38:34,345 --> 00:38:37,315 But most of the time, it's for good, 929 00:38:37,315 --> 00:38:38,316 and it's complicated. 930 00:38:38,316 --> 00:38:39,684 It is strategic 931 00:38:39,684 --> 00:38:41,819 and yet, I think he doesn't know. 932 00:38:41,819 --> 00:38:44,055 But let's, remember when you bring up the young man 933 00:38:44,055 --> 00:38:47,758 this is a person who, very early in life, 934 00:38:47,758 --> 00:38:50,761 understood that he had some mission, 935 00:38:50,761 --> 00:38:52,563 he had some purpose. 936 00:38:52,563 --> 00:38:54,465 You don't start boxing for a few months 937 00:38:54,465 --> 00:38:56,000 and call yourself "The Greatest" 938 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,271 when no one even thinks that you are that, 939 00:39:00,271 --> 00:39:01,906 and then make yourself that, 940 00:39:01,906 --> 00:39:04,542 and keep yourself that over time, 941 00:39:04,542 --> 00:39:06,944 and bring a larger message of love. 942 00:39:06,944 --> 00:39:09,880 So, to me, this is a classic hero's journey. 943 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:11,549 This is a... 944 00:39:11,549 --> 00:39:13,451 There are lots of dragons to slay 945 00:39:13,451 --> 00:39:14,552 and as we know, 946 00:39:14,552 --> 00:39:17,121 we're our own worst enemies. 947 00:39:17,121 --> 00:39:19,690 He was his own worst enemy in lots of ways, 948 00:39:19,690 --> 00:39:21,859 as we are, all four of us, 949 00:39:21,859 --> 00:39:23,127 our own worst enemies, 950 00:39:23,127 --> 00:39:25,963 and I think that was an important part to share. 951 00:39:25,963 --> 00:39:29,700 And I was so happy that this beautiful woman here 952 00:39:29,700 --> 00:39:32,837 who carries the spirit of her father understood 953 00:39:32,837 --> 00:39:34,905 that you couldn't tell it 954 00:39:34,905 --> 00:39:38,943 with just only the icing on it. 955 00:39:38,943 --> 00:39:42,113 It had to have complexity and depth, as he did 956 00:39:42,113 --> 00:39:44,682 because you can't then emerge from it 957 00:39:44,682 --> 00:39:46,817 without appreciating what he went through. 958 00:39:46,817 --> 00:39:48,219 The kind of sacrifices, 959 00:39:48,219 --> 00:39:50,054 the risks, as Howard said, 960 00:39:50,054 --> 00:39:51,655 that he took, they're unbelievable. 961 00:39:51,655 --> 00:39:54,959 And when something turned out good for him, 962 00:39:54,959 --> 00:39:56,694 legally, for example, 963 00:39:56,694 --> 00:39:59,663 people say, "Well, is this restore your faith?" 964 00:39:59,663 --> 00:40:00,931 And he just turns around, 965 00:40:00,931 --> 00:40:02,366 as if he was talking today, 966 00:40:02,366 --> 00:40:04,468 and he said, "Somebody's going to get killed by a cop, 967 00:40:04,468 --> 00:40:06,137 "someone's going to get beat up by a cop. 968 00:40:06,137 --> 00:40:07,071 "This is it. 969 00:40:07,071 --> 00:40:08,606 "This was a good decision for me 970 00:40:08,606 --> 00:40:10,841 "but it doesn't end it." 971 00:40:10,841 --> 00:40:12,510 And so, there was always a purpose. 972 00:40:12,510 --> 00:40:14,912 He loses to Frazier after belittling him 973 00:40:14,912 --> 00:40:16,781 and saying he's going to win 974 00:40:16,781 --> 00:40:18,015 with all the confidence, 975 00:40:18,015 --> 00:40:19,884 drove white America crazy. 976 00:40:19,884 --> 00:40:22,253 A lot of people were for Frazier 977 00:40:22,253 --> 00:40:23,821 just to shut him up, 978 00:40:23,821 --> 00:40:25,456 and Frazier, in a way, did, 979 00:40:25,456 --> 00:40:28,893 and his post-fight response 980 00:40:28,893 --> 00:40:31,462 about his responsibility to people 981 00:40:31,462 --> 00:40:34,999 to show that life will bring this... 982 00:40:34,999 --> 00:40:36,434 You'll lose someone you love, 983 00:40:36,434 --> 00:40:37,401 you'll lose a job, 984 00:40:37,401 --> 00:40:38,636 you'll lose a title, 985 00:40:38,636 --> 00:40:39,804 and you need to get back up, 986 00:40:39,804 --> 00:40:41,605 it can't defeat you. 987 00:40:41,605 --> 00:40:43,474 You cannot understand. 988 00:40:43,474 --> 00:40:44,809 It's the parallel of 989 00:40:44,809 --> 00:40:47,344 what Howard was saying about "beautiful." 990 00:40:47,344 --> 00:40:50,948 The parallel to that was a kind of empowering spirit, 991 00:40:50,948 --> 00:40:53,517 that this world will throw you 992 00:40:53,517 --> 00:40:56,086 a lot of difficult things 993 00:40:56,086 --> 00:40:57,621 and I will show you, 994 00:40:57,621 --> 00:40:59,123 you can get through this. 995 00:40:59,123 --> 00:41:01,892 So he is as magnificent in defeat 996 00:41:01,892 --> 00:41:04,528 as he is in victory. 997 00:41:04,528 --> 00:41:07,965 And we saw the clip where it's Baryshnikov. 998 00:41:07,965 --> 00:41:10,000 it's Miles Davis, it's Picasso. 999 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,703 And that fight with Cleveland Williams is in it... 1000 00:41:12,703 --> 00:41:14,171 Jesse, just to set you right, 1001 00:41:14,171 --> 00:41:16,507 that is not the fight, which is "what's my name? 1002 00:41:16,507 --> 00:41:18,742 It's another fight that's coming up 1003 00:41:18,742 --> 00:41:19,977 in that that episode, 1004 00:41:19,977 --> 00:41:22,646 in which he has been consciously belittled. 1005 00:41:22,646 --> 00:41:24,582 I think the important thing 1006 00:41:24,582 --> 00:41:26,750 about Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams is 1007 00:41:26,750 --> 00:41:28,352 that he's shot by the police. 1008 00:41:28,352 --> 00:41:30,120 This stuff has been going on 1009 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:31,856 well before Rodney King, 1010 00:41:31,856 --> 00:41:33,657 well before Muhammad Ali, 1011 00:41:33,657 --> 00:41:35,426 well before Emmett till, 1012 00:41:35,426 --> 00:41:37,528 well before Jack Johnson, 1013 00:41:37,528 --> 00:41:38,929 well before anything. 1014 00:41:38,929 --> 00:41:41,765 It's a 402-year old disease, 1015 00:41:41,765 --> 00:41:45,035 and it's a virus that's infected our story, 1016 00:41:45,035 --> 00:41:49,340 and Muhammad Ali intersects with that in powerful ways. 1017 00:41:49,340 --> 00:41:50,808 - Yeah, I wanted to throw one quick thing 1018 00:41:50,808 --> 00:41:52,042 out there to that too, Ken, 1019 00:41:52,042 --> 00:41:53,344 when we talk about the liberation of this 1020 00:41:53,344 --> 00:41:55,145 and what Muhammad was saying; 1021 00:41:55,145 --> 00:41:58,082 It's also, he was liberating athletes 1022 00:41:58,082 --> 00:41:59,550 because to Jesse's point, 1023 00:41:59,550 --> 00:42:02,653 ballplayers were supposed to be grateful. 1024 00:42:02,653 --> 00:42:05,256 Ballplayers, the first thing about a ballplayer, 1025 00:42:05,256 --> 00:42:08,325 you call the owner of the team "Mister." 1026 00:42:08,325 --> 00:42:10,227 They still do it today. 1027 00:42:10,227 --> 00:42:13,230 You win a game and you say, "Thank you," 1028 00:42:13,230 --> 00:42:15,032 and you're deferential to the reporters, 1029 00:42:15,032 --> 00:42:16,133 you're deferential to the fans, 1030 00:42:16,133 --> 00:42:17,735 you're deferential to everybody. 1031 00:42:17,735 --> 00:42:20,170 And he was the first guy out there 1032 00:42:20,170 --> 00:42:25,175 who really took control of his own narrative 1033 00:42:26,343 --> 00:42:29,313 and understood that "no, no, no, I'm the show. 1034 00:42:29,313 --> 00:42:31,081 "You're coming here to see me. 1035 00:42:31,081 --> 00:42:34,552 "And what that does is that gives me power." 1036 00:42:34,552 --> 00:42:36,353 And Henry Aaron was very similar to that, 1037 00:42:36,353 --> 00:42:37,588 where he realized that, 1038 00:42:37,588 --> 00:42:41,892 "If I'm here, you have to listen to me." 1039 00:42:41,892 --> 00:42:46,897 And the number of black athletes at that time 1040 00:42:48,232 --> 00:42:51,268 who were frightened because of what he was doing 1041 00:42:51,268 --> 00:42:52,903 in terms of that liberation... 1042 00:42:52,903 --> 00:42:54,371 There was another generation who said, 1043 00:42:54,371 --> 00:42:56,073 "Yeah, I want to be just like him." 1044 00:42:58,475 --> 00:43:01,512 - Rasheda, what were the most emotional moments 1045 00:43:01,512 --> 00:43:04,548 of this film for you? 1046 00:43:04,548 --> 00:43:06,450 - Well, I cried throughout. 1047 00:43:07,351 --> 00:43:09,687 There was some.... 1048 00:43:09,687 --> 00:43:10,621 Well, most... 1049 00:43:10,621 --> 00:43:11,822 There were just tears of joy 1050 00:43:11,822 --> 00:43:13,624 because it was great to see my dad. 1051 00:43:15,292 --> 00:43:18,596 And then, the times where he was... 1052 00:43:18,596 --> 00:43:21,899 There was a part in the clip where he was kissing me, 1053 00:43:21,899 --> 00:43:22,733 or my twin... 1054 00:43:22,733 --> 00:43:23,567 I have a twin. 1055 00:43:23,567 --> 00:43:25,002 So I look and I'm like, 1056 00:43:25,002 --> 00:43:27,705 "I'm not sure if that's me or Jameela. 1057 00:43:27,705 --> 00:43:29,173 "I'm not sure." 1058 00:43:29,173 --> 00:43:32,509 But he was kissing him one of us, me or my twin, 1059 00:43:32,509 --> 00:43:34,778 and he was like, "Don't you know your father's... 1060 00:43:34,778 --> 00:43:36,413 "Do you know your daddy's the greatest? 1061 00:43:36,413 --> 00:43:38,949 "Do you know your daddy's the greatest?" 1062 00:43:38,949 --> 00:43:40,751 My whole face, I just... 1063 00:43:41,752 --> 00:43:43,354 I never saw that clip before. 1064 00:43:43,354 --> 00:43:45,189 And for daddy to be like, 1065 00:43:45,189 --> 00:43:47,124 "Did you know your father's the greatest? 1066 00:43:47,124 --> 00:43:48,726 "He's the greatest all the time." 1067 00:43:48,726 --> 00:43:50,561 I just started crying. - It's a home movie for you. 1068 00:43:50,561 --> 00:43:51,795 - It was like a home movie. 1069 00:43:51,795 --> 00:43:53,163 It was like... 1070 00:43:53,163 --> 00:43:54,632 'Cause I've never seen that before 1071 00:43:54,632 --> 00:43:56,066 and I was like, "Oh my God, I've never seen that. 1072 00:43:56,066 --> 00:43:57,368 "That's me!" 1073 00:43:57,368 --> 00:44:02,006 And it was a time where I didn't really remember 1074 00:44:02,006 --> 00:44:03,607 because most of my time 1075 00:44:03,607 --> 00:44:05,409 I remember my dad were Parkinson's. 1076 00:44:05,409 --> 00:44:08,946 Because we grew up with the divorce and everything, 1077 00:44:08,946 --> 00:44:12,049 we didn't grow up with seeing my dad every day. 1078 00:44:12,049 --> 00:44:15,152 So to see him interacting with us 1079 00:44:15,152 --> 00:44:18,088 and with the wagons in Deer Lake, Pennsylvania, 1080 00:44:18,088 --> 00:44:20,424 I just got some really great memories 1081 00:44:20,424 --> 00:44:22,926 that just started to rush through my head 1082 00:44:22,926 --> 00:44:26,330 because they were good times for us, as kids, 1083 00:44:26,330 --> 00:44:28,532 because we were with our parents. 1084 00:44:28,532 --> 00:44:31,268 And we were on this great training camp, 1085 00:44:31,268 --> 00:44:32,836 and we watched our dad train, 1086 00:44:32,836 --> 00:44:34,905 and it was just a fun time for us. 1087 00:44:34,905 --> 00:44:36,774 But for us, he wasn't famous, 1088 00:44:36,774 --> 00:44:38,208 he was just our dad 1089 00:44:38,208 --> 00:44:41,845 who just took us on pony rides 1090 00:44:41,845 --> 00:44:42,946 and was just being a dad. 1091 00:44:42,946 --> 00:44:44,982 - This is what we wanted to do. 1092 00:44:44,982 --> 00:44:48,118 The whole film starts with a very long sequence 1093 00:44:48,118 --> 00:44:51,822 about stealing a bite of cornflakes. 1094 00:44:51,822 --> 00:44:53,691 There's not a parent in the world 1095 00:44:53,691 --> 00:44:56,126 that doesn't know what that kidding is 1096 00:44:56,126 --> 00:44:57,161 with a toddler, 1097 00:44:57,161 --> 00:44:59,029 and it was our way of saying, 1098 00:44:59,029 --> 00:45:01,331 "Okay, okay, we'll get to the boxing. 1099 00:45:01,331 --> 00:45:03,067 "Okay, we'll get to the conflict. 1100 00:45:03,067 --> 00:45:04,601 "We'll get to this. 1101 00:45:04,601 --> 00:45:08,272 "But this is a person who loves other human beings, 1102 00:45:08,272 --> 00:45:11,775 "and he particularly loves his family, 1103 00:45:11,775 --> 00:45:14,278 "and he particularly loves his girls." 1104 00:45:14,278 --> 00:45:17,748 And it was important to move that 1105 00:45:17,748 --> 00:45:20,084 from its placement way up in episode three 1106 00:45:20,084 --> 00:45:22,753 and move it back to the very beginning of the film, 1107 00:45:22,753 --> 00:45:23,954 and say... 1108 00:45:23,954 --> 00:45:25,522 Let's just start with something like, 1109 00:45:25,522 --> 00:45:28,559 "Look over there, I'm going to steal your corn flakes." 1110 00:45:29,860 --> 00:45:33,130 - Good call there, Ken. - Great call. 1111 00:45:33,130 --> 00:45:34,765 It was really beautiful opening. 1112 00:45:34,765 --> 00:45:36,834 I just immediately started crying as soon 1113 00:45:36,834 --> 00:45:40,838 as I saw Miriam and my dad just playing around. 1114 00:45:40,838 --> 00:45:42,840 I never saw that either. 1115 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,242 Again, we're seeing footage I've never seen 1116 00:45:45,242 --> 00:45:46,910 and it's really taken me back. 1117 00:45:46,910 --> 00:45:48,312 It's good memories. 1118 00:45:48,312 --> 00:45:50,748 - Our fourth producer, Stephanie Jenkins, 1119 00:45:50,748 --> 00:45:53,183 and the team of people who look for stuff; 1120 00:45:53,183 --> 00:45:56,587 the reason why these films take four, five, six, seven years 1121 00:45:56,587 --> 00:45:58,322 to make is because we want to do 1122 00:45:58,322 --> 00:46:00,624 the deepest possible dive, possible 1123 00:46:00,624 --> 00:46:03,327 and make sure that it's not an additive process, 1124 00:46:03,327 --> 00:46:04,261 but it's subtractive. 1125 00:46:04,261 --> 00:46:06,563 We collect hundreds of hours 1126 00:46:06,563 --> 00:46:09,333 and then say, "Okay, we love that, 1127 00:46:09,333 --> 00:46:10,934 "but it just doesn't fit." 1128 00:46:10,934 --> 00:46:13,137 And the clip we're going to show right now, Jesse, 1129 00:46:13,137 --> 00:46:14,338 if I can segue into that 1130 00:46:14,338 --> 00:46:16,039 so we don't run out of any time, 1131 00:46:16,039 --> 00:46:20,644 is not too much after the other clip 1132 00:46:20,644 --> 00:46:23,647 but he's refused induction, 1133 00:46:23,647 --> 00:46:27,050 he's delayed some stuff by changing his draft board 1134 00:46:27,050 --> 00:46:29,219 from Kentucky to Texas, 1135 00:46:30,821 --> 00:46:32,289 but he's... 1136 00:46:32,289 --> 00:46:33,490 When he's finally inducted, 1137 00:46:33,490 --> 00:46:35,192 he refuses induction 1138 00:46:35,192 --> 00:46:37,127 and he is put on trial. 1139 00:46:37,127 --> 00:46:40,297 And so, this clip is really self-explanatory 1140 00:46:40,297 --> 00:46:42,132 and we've sort of hinted at it before, 1141 00:46:42,132 --> 00:46:44,034 but it may be a good way 1142 00:46:44,034 --> 00:46:45,969 to finally get at the man. 1143 00:46:45,969 --> 00:46:49,173 This human being, Muhammad Ali. 1144 00:46:49,173 --> 00:46:51,809 So could you roll the last clip? 1145 00:46:52,910 --> 00:46:54,311 - [Narrator] Two weeks later, 1146 00:46:54,311 --> 00:46:56,947 an all-white Houston jury found Ali guilty 1147 00:46:56,947 --> 00:46:58,448 of refusing the draft. 1148 00:46:59,850 --> 00:47:02,219 The judge, ignoring the more lenient recommendation 1149 00:47:02,219 --> 00:47:03,754 of the prosecutor, 1150 00:47:03,754 --> 00:47:06,223 sentenced him to the maximum; 1151 00:47:06,223 --> 00:47:09,760 five years in prison and a $10,000 fine. 1152 00:47:10,894 --> 00:47:13,063 And he would have to surrender his passport. 1153 00:47:14,364 --> 00:47:18,235 Ali's lawyers immediately filed an appeal, 1154 00:47:18,235 --> 00:47:20,103 prepared to go all the way to 1155 00:47:20,103 --> 00:47:22,339 the Supreme Court, if necessary. 1156 00:47:22,339 --> 00:47:24,408 A process that could take years. 1157 00:47:25,542 --> 00:47:28,846 Ali remained free, but without his title 1158 00:47:28,846 --> 00:47:30,581 or a license to box. 1159 00:47:32,015 --> 00:47:34,084 He fully expected that he would 1160 00:47:34,084 --> 00:47:37,321 one day go to jail for his beliefs. 1161 00:47:37,321 --> 00:47:39,723 - We, who are followers of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad 1162 00:47:39,723 --> 00:47:40,991 in the religion of Islam, 1163 00:47:40,991 --> 00:47:43,527 we believe in obeying the laws of the land. 1164 00:47:43,527 --> 00:47:46,129 We are taught to obey the laws of the land 1165 00:47:46,129 --> 00:47:48,298 as long as it don't conflict 1166 00:47:48,298 --> 00:47:50,234 with our religious beliefs. 1167 00:47:50,234 --> 00:47:52,169 - [Reporter] Will you go into service as such? 1168 00:47:52,169 --> 00:47:54,638 - This would be a 1,000% against the teachings 1169 00:47:54,638 --> 00:47:56,506 of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, 1170 00:47:56,506 --> 00:47:57,975 the religion of Islam, 1171 00:47:57,975 --> 00:48:00,210 and the Holy Quran, the holy book that we believe in. 1172 00:48:00,210 --> 00:48:01,979 This would be all be denouncing 1173 00:48:01,979 --> 00:48:04,414 and defying everything that I stand for. 1174 00:48:04,414 --> 00:48:06,149 - [Reporter] This would mean, of course, 1175 00:48:06,149 --> 00:48:08,418 that you stand the chance of going to jail 1176 00:48:08,418 --> 00:48:10,487 as a result of not going into service. 1177 00:48:10,487 --> 00:48:12,689 - Well, whatever the punishment, 1178 00:48:12,689 --> 00:48:14,258 whatever the persecution is 1179 00:48:14,258 --> 00:48:16,760 for standing up of my religious beliefs, 1180 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,796 even if it means facing machine gun fire that day, 1181 00:48:19,796 --> 00:48:23,166 I will face it before denouncing Elijah Muhammad 1182 00:48:23,166 --> 00:48:24,501 and the religion of Islam. 1183 00:48:24,501 --> 00:48:25,535 I'm ready to die. 1184 00:48:28,038 --> 00:48:30,374 - When I think about him saying, 1185 00:48:30,374 --> 00:48:34,077 "If they want to put maybe for a firing squad tomorrow, 1186 00:48:34,077 --> 00:48:36,880 "I'm ready to die before I abandon my religion." 1187 00:48:41,852 --> 00:48:42,819 That's it. 1188 00:48:45,422 --> 00:48:47,257 You can't teach that kind of thing 1189 00:48:47,257 --> 00:48:48,759 in lectures and books. 1190 00:48:48,759 --> 00:48:51,561 That kind of thing has to be modeled. 1191 00:48:51,561 --> 00:48:53,931 And models turn into traditions, 1192 00:48:53,931 --> 00:48:55,999 and traditions provide people 1193 00:48:55,999 --> 00:48:59,836 with the mechanical memory to do the right thing. 1194 00:48:59,836 --> 00:49:04,074 That's what Muhammad Ali represented in that moment. 1195 00:49:04,074 --> 00:49:08,111 I mean, anybody now faced with a major decision 1196 00:49:08,111 --> 00:49:09,880 in which the right way is clear 1197 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:11,348 and the wrong way is clear, 1198 00:49:11,348 --> 00:49:13,250 but the consequences are dire, 1199 00:49:13,250 --> 00:49:16,553 now they have a model that they can fall back on, 1200 00:49:16,553 --> 00:49:19,056 psychologically, emotionally, spiritually; 1201 00:49:19,056 --> 00:49:21,892 That's what Muhammad Ali represented in that moment 1202 00:49:21,892 --> 00:49:23,527 and that, to me, 1203 00:49:23,527 --> 00:49:25,429 that moment will live on forever. 1204 00:49:35,105 --> 00:49:35,939 - Wow. 1205 00:49:37,641 --> 00:49:39,343 I love that part of the film. 1206 00:49:39,343 --> 00:49:41,745 Howard, you've written so evocatively 1207 00:49:41,745 --> 00:49:43,480 about the heritage, 1208 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,415 which is the title of one of your books, 1209 00:49:45,415 --> 00:49:49,152 of black athletes and activism. 1210 00:49:49,152 --> 00:49:51,788 Can you explain today's athletes, 1211 00:49:51,788 --> 00:49:53,657 whether they know it or not, 1212 00:49:53,657 --> 00:49:55,525 what are some of the examples 1213 00:49:55,525 --> 00:49:57,227 of how they're following that model 1214 00:49:57,227 --> 00:49:59,129 that Ali set? 1215 00:49:59,129 --> 00:50:01,698 - Well, they are part of a lineage 1216 00:50:01,698 --> 00:50:03,200 and I think that people... 1217 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:04,901 I think we hear it. 1218 00:50:04,901 --> 00:50:05,869 I don't think we know it 1219 00:50:05,869 --> 00:50:07,204 because you don't really know it 1220 00:50:07,204 --> 00:50:08,672 until you're faced with it. 1221 00:50:08,672 --> 00:50:09,940 I think that one of the mistakes 1222 00:50:09,940 --> 00:50:12,642 that I see, that I don't love, today is this idea 1223 00:50:12,642 --> 00:50:15,012 that you are in the heritage of Muhammad Ali 1224 00:50:15,012 --> 00:50:17,481 by owning a team, 1225 00:50:17,481 --> 00:50:19,082 or by making money, 1226 00:50:19,082 --> 00:50:21,318 or being part of an empire. 1227 00:50:21,318 --> 00:50:23,687 It's exactly the opposite of that. 1228 00:50:23,687 --> 00:50:25,188 He's exactly the opposite 1229 00:50:25,188 --> 00:50:27,457 of all of these things that we have. 1230 00:50:27,457 --> 00:50:32,462 We have conflated athlete activism with commerce. 1231 00:50:33,063 --> 00:50:34,464 And so, to me, 1232 00:50:34,464 --> 00:50:36,967 what I find in... 1233 00:50:36,967 --> 00:50:40,203 What I find appealing to what's happening today is 1234 00:50:40,203 --> 00:50:43,407 the citizenship element of the athletes. 1235 00:50:43,407 --> 00:50:46,043 When you see athletes doing things 1236 00:50:46,043 --> 00:50:50,247 that allow them to speak for other people, 1237 00:50:50,247 --> 00:50:52,549 I find that to be compelling. 1238 00:50:52,549 --> 00:50:55,285 I always remind myself when we go through this, 1239 00:50:55,285 --> 00:50:56,653 whether we're talking about Colin Kaepernick 1240 00:50:56,653 --> 00:50:58,655 or we're talking about LeBron James 1241 00:50:58,655 --> 00:51:00,223 or whomever else, 1242 00:51:00,223 --> 00:51:03,493 the level of risk is never going to be the same 1243 00:51:03,493 --> 00:51:04,995 and it shouldn't be. 1244 00:51:04,995 --> 00:51:08,932 And that I feel like we compare people 1245 00:51:08,932 --> 00:51:10,634 to Muhammad way too easily 1246 00:51:10,634 --> 00:51:13,203 because it's incongruous to us 1247 00:51:13,203 --> 00:51:18,208 to think about having a government come after you. 1248 00:51:19,076 --> 00:51:20,243 I think very few people have 1249 00:51:20,243 --> 00:51:22,612 any idea of what that means. 1250 00:51:22,612 --> 00:51:24,181 And when I say the government coming after you, 1251 00:51:24,181 --> 00:51:26,049 I'm talking about the citizens, 1252 00:51:26,049 --> 00:51:28,685 not just the prison, being threatened with prison, 1253 00:51:28,685 --> 00:51:29,920 but I'm thinking the number 1254 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:32,522 of conversations that people were having 1255 00:51:32,522 --> 00:51:34,658 that were in absolute support 1256 00:51:34,658 --> 00:51:36,560 of this man going to prison or worse. 1257 00:51:37,594 --> 00:51:41,231 And so, I'm very, very wary 1258 00:51:41,231 --> 00:51:43,800 of ever comparing anybody to Muhammad. 1259 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:45,702 - And the judge is given the chance, 1260 00:51:45,702 --> 00:51:49,306 the prosecutor's had asked for a much more lenient sentence, 1261 00:51:49,306 --> 00:51:51,408 he sentenced him to the maximum. 1262 00:51:51,408 --> 00:51:52,809 We cut to a newspaper, 1263 00:51:52,809 --> 00:51:55,011 years after he's changed his name, 1264 00:51:55,011 --> 00:51:56,847 they're still calling him Clay. 1265 00:51:56,847 --> 00:52:01,384 We don't know what he was up against. 1266 00:52:01,384 --> 00:52:03,053 I mean, that's one of the reasons 1267 00:52:03,053 --> 00:52:04,754 why we wanted to make the film, 1268 00:52:04,754 --> 00:52:05,989 is to describe that thing 1269 00:52:05,989 --> 00:52:08,258 and I think, as I said before, Howard, 1270 00:52:08,258 --> 00:52:10,227 I think you really hit the nail on the head, 1271 00:52:10,227 --> 00:52:14,898 that this risk is a huge, huge part 1272 00:52:14,898 --> 00:52:16,166 of the story, 1273 00:52:16,166 --> 00:52:18,502 that sometimes we just don't put it together. 1274 00:52:18,502 --> 00:52:21,505 It's sitting there right in front of us. 1275 00:52:21,505 --> 00:52:23,673 This is a person who said he would risk 1276 00:52:23,673 --> 00:52:25,609 a firing squad. 1277 00:52:25,609 --> 00:52:28,278 I mean, that's something. 1278 00:52:28,278 --> 00:52:31,047 - And it sounds hyperbolic 1279 00:52:31,047 --> 00:52:34,417 but one of the things that I always remind people is 1280 00:52:34,417 --> 00:52:36,419 if you really want to compare 1281 00:52:37,420 --> 00:52:38,688 anybody to Muhammad, 1282 00:52:38,688 --> 00:52:40,190 in terms of some of these risks, 1283 00:52:40,190 --> 00:52:42,893 it has to be someone like Tommy Smith or John Carlos; 1284 00:52:42,893 --> 00:52:45,061 they lost their careers. 1285 00:52:45,061 --> 00:52:46,396 And even someone like... 1286 00:52:46,396 --> 00:52:48,165 And this is why I don't like the comparison game 1287 00:52:48,165 --> 00:52:49,866 because it makes it seem like you're criticizing someone. 1288 00:52:49,866 --> 00:52:52,169 You're not, you're putting it into the proper context. 1289 00:52:52,169 --> 00:52:54,204 Is that at no point 1290 00:52:54,204 --> 00:52:56,506 in his career has LeBron James 1291 00:52:56,506 --> 00:52:58,942 ever been threatened with his live... 1292 00:52:58,942 --> 00:53:00,844 And his livelihood has never been threatened 1293 00:53:00,844 --> 00:53:02,979 by anything he's ever said in his career. 1294 00:53:02,979 --> 00:53:04,814 He's that protected, 1295 00:53:04,814 --> 00:53:06,917 and that's a good thing, right? 1296 00:53:06,917 --> 00:53:08,518 You don't have to be destitute 1297 00:53:08,518 --> 00:53:09,986 in order to be a good person 1298 00:53:09,986 --> 00:53:11,488 or a good citizen, or do the right thing. 1299 00:53:11,488 --> 00:53:13,990 And the fact that they have that insulation is great, 1300 00:53:13,990 --> 00:53:16,927 but that does separate you from Muhammad, 1301 00:53:16,927 --> 00:53:18,228 which is also a great thing. 1302 00:53:18,228 --> 00:53:19,930 You don't want to be in that category. 1303 00:53:19,930 --> 00:53:22,032 He did this for us. 1304 00:53:22,032 --> 00:53:23,667 We don't need any others 1305 00:53:23,667 --> 00:53:25,602 to keep doing this for us. 1306 00:53:25,602 --> 00:53:29,739 And so, I always feel when you come back 1307 00:53:29,739 --> 00:53:30,674 to what he went through 1308 00:53:30,674 --> 00:53:31,908 and you see it in the film, 1309 00:53:31,908 --> 00:53:35,579 especially '67 to '70-'71, 1310 00:53:35,579 --> 00:53:36,513 and even beyond, 1311 00:53:36,513 --> 00:53:38,315 even by the time you get to '74, 1312 00:53:38,315 --> 00:53:40,350 it's unprecedented what you saw 1313 00:53:40,350 --> 00:53:43,687 because I honestly believe that most athletes, 1314 00:53:43,687 --> 00:53:48,625 most people would have found some way to compromise 1315 00:53:48,625 --> 00:53:51,161 and not go as far as he went. 1316 00:53:51,161 --> 00:53:53,630 He did not compromise at all 1317 00:53:53,630 --> 00:53:55,966 and still found his way back. 1318 00:53:55,966 --> 00:53:57,167 Most players who do, 1319 00:53:57,167 --> 00:53:58,802 most people who do what he did, 1320 00:53:58,802 --> 00:53:59,769 they get broken, 1321 00:53:59,769 --> 00:54:01,037 and he didn't get broken. 1322 00:54:01,037 --> 00:54:02,072 He was unbroken. 1323 00:54:04,307 --> 00:54:05,442 - He absolutely was. 1324 00:54:05,442 --> 00:54:07,110 And one of the comments that you made 1325 00:54:07,110 --> 00:54:08,044 in the film, Howard, 1326 00:54:08,044 --> 00:54:10,580 that I found really resonant was 1327 00:54:10,580 --> 00:54:12,949 that the Rumble in The Jungle, 1328 00:54:14,751 --> 00:54:17,587 him coming back and beating Foreman, 1329 00:54:17,587 --> 00:54:18,822 he was made whole. 1330 00:54:20,123 --> 00:54:22,325 He was made whole, and then that, 1331 00:54:22,325 --> 00:54:25,095 in terms of his story and what it meant, 1332 00:54:25,095 --> 00:54:27,330 was so rewarding. 1333 00:54:27,330 --> 00:54:29,199 (speaking over each other) 1334 00:54:29,199 --> 00:54:30,367 - I was going to say, Jesse, 1335 00:54:30,367 --> 00:54:31,601 when we think about these stories, 1336 00:54:31,601 --> 00:54:34,271 even Jackie, even Jackie Robinson, 1337 00:54:34,271 --> 00:54:39,276 at some point, realized what had been taken from him. 1338 00:54:40,143 --> 00:54:41,144 Kurt Flood lost his career. 1339 00:54:41,144 --> 00:54:42,445 Colin Kaepernick lost his career. 1340 00:54:42,445 --> 00:54:44,414 Smith and Carlos lost their careers. 1341 00:54:44,414 --> 00:54:47,050 Everybody who talks, they find a way to break you. 1342 00:54:48,118 --> 00:54:49,653 And he had to win that fight, 1343 00:54:49,653 --> 00:54:51,621 that's why Zaire is my favorite fight. 1344 00:54:51,621 --> 00:54:54,791 Zaire the resilient spirit of resistance. 1345 00:54:54,791 --> 00:54:56,192 It is everything. 1346 00:54:56,192 --> 00:54:57,594 And think about... 1347 00:54:57,594 --> 00:54:59,763 Are we even watching this film 1348 00:54:59,763 --> 00:55:00,997 if he loses that fight? 1349 00:55:00,997 --> 00:55:02,666 Is there a film if he lo... 1350 00:55:02,666 --> 00:55:03,867 It's a different film. 1351 00:55:03,867 --> 00:55:05,335 But the story. 1352 00:55:05,335 --> 00:55:07,871 Most of us lose when they come after you. 1353 00:55:09,439 --> 00:55:10,640 - Yeah, yeah. 1354 00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:12,642 So he was made whole, absolutely. 1355 00:55:12,642 --> 00:55:13,943 I agree with you. 1356 00:55:13,943 --> 00:55:15,111 And then, at the end of the film, 1357 00:55:15,111 --> 00:55:16,813 we see him in pieces. 1358 00:55:16,813 --> 00:55:20,350 And the pieces of him that that made him so compelling, 1359 00:55:20,350 --> 00:55:22,519 his voice, his movement, 1360 00:55:22,519 --> 00:55:23,953 are what's robbed from him. 1361 00:55:23,953 --> 00:55:28,058 And the film even quotes Ali as saying, 1362 00:55:28,058 --> 00:55:30,660 "This may be my punishment for the wrongs that I've done 1363 00:55:30,660 --> 00:55:34,230 "and the way I treated these opponents 1364 00:55:34,230 --> 00:55:36,266 "or the infidelities that I had 1365 00:55:36,266 --> 00:55:38,368 "in my relationships and things like that." 1366 00:55:38,368 --> 00:55:42,072 So what part of the Ali story 1367 00:55:42,072 --> 00:55:47,077 and the meaning of his story is filled by his condition 1368 00:55:47,811 --> 00:55:49,412 at the end of his life? 1369 00:55:49,412 --> 00:55:51,047 And maybe, Rasheda, I'll start with you 1370 00:55:51,047 --> 00:55:53,016 since you interacted with him personally 1371 00:55:53,016 --> 00:55:54,751 and had to see him in this state. 1372 00:55:54,751 --> 00:55:57,387 How does that part of it fit into 1373 00:55:57,387 --> 00:55:59,089 the overall message of his life? 1374 00:56:00,056 --> 00:56:02,726 - Well, I mentioned after I saw 1375 00:56:03,893 --> 00:56:06,830 all the clips, the whole entire series, 1376 00:56:06,830 --> 00:56:10,033 I mentioned to Ken, and Sarah Burns, 1377 00:56:10,033 --> 00:56:14,504 that it was really beautiful to watch my dad, 1378 00:56:15,605 --> 00:56:17,474 the good and the bad. 1379 00:56:17,474 --> 00:56:20,543 He was young, changing the world. 1380 00:56:20,543 --> 00:56:22,212 You're going to make mistakes. 1381 00:56:22,212 --> 00:56:24,714 But it's beautiful a man evolve 1382 00:56:24,714 --> 00:56:25,949 into a better man. 1383 00:56:25,949 --> 00:56:28,385 He's always evolving into a better man. 1384 00:56:28,385 --> 00:56:30,153 He's not the same person he is now. 1385 00:56:30,153 --> 00:56:31,821 His convictions are the same 1386 00:56:31,821 --> 00:56:34,124 but his choices aren't the same. 1387 00:56:34,124 --> 00:56:39,095 So it's beautiful to watch how my dad has come full circle, 1388 00:56:39,095 --> 00:56:42,165 and kind of had regrets with the Malcolm X 1389 00:56:42,165 --> 00:56:44,501 and Frazier and stuff. 1390 00:56:44,501 --> 00:56:45,935 He was human. 1391 00:56:45,935 --> 00:56:49,906 And when Parkinson's became a part of his life, 1392 00:56:49,906 --> 00:56:52,041 my dad was devastated, 1393 00:56:52,041 --> 00:56:55,578 and I think he disappeared from the media for a while 1394 00:56:55,578 --> 00:56:59,382 because he was trying to figure out, 1395 00:56:59,382 --> 00:57:00,950 wrap his brain around, 1396 00:57:00,950 --> 00:57:03,553 what is this condition that is stopping me 1397 00:57:03,553 --> 00:57:06,089 from being the person I was? 1398 00:57:06,089 --> 00:57:09,626 Because my dad's biggest asset was his mouth. 1399 00:57:09,626 --> 00:57:11,761 And so, then you get this condition 1400 00:57:11,761 --> 00:57:13,797 that's muting him 1401 00:57:13,797 --> 00:57:17,333 and now, he's barely some... 1402 00:57:17,333 --> 00:57:18,802 In some clips you'll see, 1403 00:57:18,802 --> 00:57:20,437 he's barely whispering. 1404 00:57:20,437 --> 00:57:22,272 So that was his strength. 1405 00:57:22,272 --> 00:57:27,043 And so, my dad had to kind of really figure out, 1406 00:57:27,043 --> 00:57:29,012 "What am I going to do with this 1407 00:57:29,012 --> 00:57:31,314 "now new condition?" 1408 00:57:31,314 --> 00:57:35,185 But then, you see in 1996, 1409 00:57:35,185 --> 00:57:37,420 where he's lighting the torch for the Olympics, 1410 00:57:37,420 --> 00:57:41,925 he comes out of the dark and into the light 1411 00:57:41,925 --> 00:57:43,226 and shows people, 1412 00:57:43,226 --> 00:57:44,861 it's very brave move, 1413 00:57:44,861 --> 00:57:46,863 that I could have Parkinson's, 1414 00:57:46,863 --> 00:57:49,332 I can light this torch and I can still be great. 1415 00:57:49,332 --> 00:57:51,334 But he's not doing it for just himself, 1416 00:57:51,334 --> 00:57:52,535 he's doing it for other people 1417 00:57:52,535 --> 00:57:54,270 with neurocognitive diseases. 1418 00:57:54,270 --> 00:57:55,672 So that was the brave part, 1419 00:57:55,672 --> 00:57:57,874 is that he's letting other people know 1420 00:57:57,874 --> 00:58:01,110 that this does not define who you are. 1421 00:58:01,110 --> 00:58:02,479 This is what you have, 1422 00:58:02,479 --> 00:58:04,581 this has not defined who you are. 1423 00:58:04,581 --> 00:58:08,184 You can still be great and have this condition. 1424 00:58:08,184 --> 00:58:10,720 So that was what was beautiful, 1425 00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:12,222 to watch him evolving, 1426 00:58:12,222 --> 00:58:13,790 even with this condition 1427 00:58:13,790 --> 00:58:15,024 that, in some cases, 1428 00:58:15,024 --> 00:58:16,759 would have broke most people down. 1429 00:58:16,759 --> 00:58:17,694 But we've got to remember 1430 00:58:17,694 --> 00:58:19,896 my dad was always a fighter. 1431 00:58:19,896 --> 00:58:22,065 So throughout his entire life, 1432 00:58:22,065 --> 00:58:24,267 he used his core principles, 1433 00:58:24,267 --> 00:58:25,735 including his faith, 1434 00:58:25,735 --> 00:58:29,639 to get through a lot of the trials and tribulations 1435 00:58:29,639 --> 00:58:31,074 that he faced. 1436 00:58:31,074 --> 00:58:33,476 I don't think any other person had ever faced so many 1437 00:58:33,476 --> 00:58:34,744 all in one lifetime. 1438 00:58:34,744 --> 00:58:37,680 So it's really wonderful to see that 1439 00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:39,148 even with Parkinson's, 1440 00:58:39,148 --> 00:58:41,050 he's still going out and doing 1441 00:58:41,050 --> 00:58:41,985 what he loves best, 1442 00:58:41,985 --> 00:58:43,353 and that's helping people. 1443 00:58:43,353 --> 00:58:45,488 And it's really inspiring and motivating, 1444 00:58:45,488 --> 00:58:47,056 and it brought tears to my eyes, Ken, 1445 00:58:47,056 --> 00:58:48,558 I have to tell you that, 1446 00:58:48,558 --> 00:58:51,661 because when you're watching daddy struggling, 1447 00:58:51,661 --> 00:58:52,929 walking and talking, 1448 00:58:52,929 --> 00:58:54,864 and it's hard to do certain things 1449 00:58:54,864 --> 00:58:55,932 in the late stages, 1450 00:58:55,932 --> 00:58:57,534 he's still helping people 1451 00:58:57,534 --> 00:58:59,569 and I think that's the overall message. 1452 00:58:59,569 --> 00:59:01,671 I think my dad wanted all of us, 1453 00:59:01,671 --> 00:59:04,274 no matter what happens to you in your life, 1454 00:59:04,274 --> 00:59:07,076 service to others is the rent you pay 1455 00:59:07,076 --> 00:59:08,278 for your room in heaven. 1456 00:59:09,546 --> 00:59:10,980 - Yeah. 1457 00:59:10,980 --> 00:59:14,450 Howard, what do you think about this him being made whole 1458 00:59:14,450 --> 00:59:15,852 in the Rumble in The Jungle, 1459 00:59:15,852 --> 00:59:18,922 and then being broken down toward the end? 1460 00:59:20,089 --> 00:59:22,492 - Well, I always felt there was... 1461 00:59:22,492 --> 00:59:23,693 It's very poignant. 1462 00:59:23,693 --> 00:59:25,261 It's very painful. 1463 00:59:25,261 --> 00:59:26,629 And he's a professional, 1464 00:59:26,629 --> 00:59:27,997 and this is what you know. 1465 00:59:27,997 --> 00:59:29,198 This is... 1466 00:59:29,198 --> 00:59:31,134 We always talk about "the athlete's journey," 1467 00:59:31,134 --> 00:59:33,002 and this is the athlete's journey. 1468 00:59:33,002 --> 00:59:38,007 And he was going to go until he couldn't go anymore. 1469 00:59:40,009 --> 00:59:42,645 There's always a piece of you that believes 1470 00:59:42,645 --> 00:59:44,614 that if I just make this adjustment, 1471 00:59:44,614 --> 00:59:45,648 I can win this fight 1472 00:59:45,648 --> 00:59:46,950 or if I just do this, like... 1473 00:59:46,950 --> 00:59:49,185 And boxing is the cruelest lesson 1474 00:59:49,185 --> 00:59:51,521 because there's only one way to go out in boxing 1475 00:59:51,521 --> 00:59:52,655 if you're not gonna... 1476 00:59:52,655 --> 00:59:54,857 At some point, you're going to lose. 1477 00:59:54,857 --> 00:59:57,827 And for me, it wasn't... 1478 00:59:57,827 --> 01:00:00,730 The Zaire fight was the pinnacle. 1479 01:00:00,730 --> 01:00:03,366 The Larry Holmes fight and the Berbick fight, 1480 01:00:03,366 --> 01:00:04,801 those are the ones where it was like... 1481 01:00:04,801 --> 01:00:06,402 Especially Berbick, it's like... 1482 01:00:07,303 --> 01:00:09,939 You didn't want to see it. 1483 01:00:09,939 --> 01:00:11,140 It's hard. 1484 01:00:11,140 --> 01:00:12,375 It's almost like look at a family member 1485 01:00:12,375 --> 01:00:13,843 'cause you love Muhammad so much. 1486 01:00:13,843 --> 01:00:18,047 And I always felt like when you watched the end... 1487 01:00:18,047 --> 01:00:19,282 'Cause I remember, I was a kid. 1488 01:00:19,282 --> 01:00:20,750 I was in elementary and middle school 1489 01:00:20,750 --> 01:00:22,352 when he was coming to the end. 1490 01:00:23,853 --> 01:00:25,254 You knew how much you love him 1491 01:00:25,254 --> 01:00:26,489 'cause you didn't want to see him fight, 1492 01:00:26,489 --> 01:00:28,391 you didn't want him to go back out there. 1493 01:00:29,626 --> 01:00:31,127 And it's the fight, 1494 01:00:31,127 --> 01:00:33,429 this is what it is when you're at that level. 1495 01:00:33,429 --> 01:00:34,864 There's only one way. 1496 01:00:34,864 --> 01:00:37,133 Very few people recognize, 1497 01:00:37,133 --> 01:00:40,703 "I'm going to go without being told to leave." 1498 01:00:40,703 --> 01:00:42,372 Most athletes get told to leave. 1499 01:00:46,976 --> 01:00:48,277 - We're coming to the end, 1500 01:00:48,277 --> 01:00:50,079 but we do have some audience questions. 1501 01:00:50,079 --> 01:00:52,615 And Ken, I'd like to throw this one at you 1502 01:00:53,616 --> 01:00:56,352 from Brandon in Washington. 1503 01:00:56,352 --> 01:00:58,821 And he asked, "What was different from making this film 1504 01:00:58,821 --> 01:01:01,491 "from making his favorite documentary, "Baseball"?" 1505 01:01:01,491 --> 01:01:03,459 And I'll sort of layer into that. 1506 01:01:03,459 --> 01:01:05,428 We love all of our children 1507 01:01:05,428 --> 01:01:07,330 but we love all of them differently, 1508 01:01:07,330 --> 01:01:09,532 so at this point in your career, 1509 01:01:10,967 --> 01:01:12,568 what is special to you 1510 01:01:12,568 --> 01:01:14,404 about this particular film compared 1511 01:01:14,404 --> 01:01:16,506 to "Baseball" on all of your other children? 1512 01:01:18,341 --> 01:01:19,342 - You're muted, Ken. 1513 01:01:22,712 --> 01:01:24,247 - Sorry. 1514 01:01:24,247 --> 01:01:25,515 It's a good question. 1515 01:01:26,449 --> 01:01:28,084 I think that for us, 1516 01:01:28,084 --> 01:01:30,853 the process is always the same. 1517 01:01:30,853 --> 01:01:33,589 It's really just a lot of discipline and hard work. 1518 01:01:33,589 --> 01:01:36,859 I mean, it's not akin to preparing for a fight, 1519 01:01:36,859 --> 01:01:38,461 and then each fight is different. 1520 01:01:38,461 --> 01:01:41,464 Each one of these films is different. 1521 01:01:41,464 --> 01:01:44,767 And Howard has been around enough of our films 1522 01:01:44,767 --> 01:01:47,770 to know that there's a kind of consistency 1523 01:01:47,770 --> 01:01:49,072 to the discipline. 1524 01:01:49,072 --> 01:01:51,007 I mean, we put a name on it, "Muhammad Ali," 1525 01:01:51,007 --> 01:01:53,276 and it comes out in September and that's it 1526 01:01:53,276 --> 01:01:56,379 but we're working everyday on other films 1527 01:01:56,379 --> 01:02:00,316 and even films that are over with have a life of their own. 1528 01:02:00,316 --> 01:02:02,685 I think what I said at the beginning is 1529 01:02:02,685 --> 01:02:05,388 what is so special about this, 1530 01:02:05,388 --> 01:02:09,892 is that we have necessarily dealt 1531 01:02:09,892 --> 01:02:13,096 in the films, over the last 40 years, 1532 01:02:13,096 --> 01:02:15,631 with extraordinary human beings. 1533 01:02:15,631 --> 01:02:20,636 I don't know anyone more extraordinary than him 1534 01:02:23,573 --> 01:02:25,608 with all the flaws, 1535 01:02:25,608 --> 01:02:27,944 with all the glory, 1536 01:02:27,944 --> 01:02:31,647 and that I love this underlying message of love. 1537 01:02:31,647 --> 01:02:33,950 And in some ways, there's a kind of poetry 1538 01:02:33,950 --> 01:02:37,286 to being silenced by Parkinson's 1539 01:02:37,286 --> 01:02:39,522 for this big mouth of a guy. 1540 01:02:39,522 --> 01:02:42,759 Not to shut him up, as so many people wanted do, 1541 01:02:42,759 --> 01:02:44,360 but to let him go in 1542 01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:47,563 and make his spirit even brighter. 1543 01:02:47,563 --> 01:02:49,999 It's an amazing Testament. 1544 01:02:49,999 --> 01:02:53,770 And let us also say that we spend too much 1545 01:02:53,770 --> 01:02:58,541 of our time relegating African-American history to February, 1546 01:02:59,942 --> 01:03:01,744 our shortest and coldest month. 1547 01:03:02,912 --> 01:03:05,181 It's at the center of our identity 1548 01:03:05,181 --> 01:03:07,416 and we don't want to deal with that. 1549 01:03:07,416 --> 01:03:08,818 We just don't want to deal with that, 1550 01:03:08,818 --> 01:03:11,220 and that's all that you can do. 1551 01:03:11,220 --> 01:03:13,356 You cannot scratch the surface 1552 01:03:13,356 --> 01:03:16,359 of American history without coming into contact 1553 01:03:16,359 --> 01:03:19,428 with this essential contradiction. 1554 01:03:19,428 --> 01:03:22,765 And then, the extraordinary gift 1555 01:03:22,765 --> 01:03:26,536 that African-Americans in the face of 1556 01:03:26,536 --> 01:03:30,206 that hypocrisy and contradiction have 1557 01:03:30,206 --> 01:03:34,310 nevertheless bestowed on us lessons, 1558 01:03:34,310 --> 01:03:39,315 examples, models, as as Sherman would say, 1559 01:03:39,782 --> 01:03:40,616 music, 1560 01:03:41,784 --> 01:03:43,719 performance, 1561 01:03:43,719 --> 01:03:44,987 excellence. 1562 01:03:44,987 --> 01:03:49,058 All of these gifts are not recorded equally. 1563 01:03:51,894 --> 01:03:54,697 There's nobody bigger than him. 1564 01:03:58,401 --> 01:03:59,368 - Thank you. 1565 01:03:59,368 --> 01:04:00,303 Thank you so much for that. 1566 01:04:00,303 --> 01:04:01,537 And thank you for bringing 1567 01:04:01,537 --> 01:04:03,840 up the importance of black history 1568 01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:05,675 in history overall. 1569 01:04:05,675 --> 01:04:08,311 And I'm glad that your film is premiering. 1570 01:04:08,311 --> 01:04:11,747 It's September 19th on PBS. 1571 01:04:11,747 --> 01:04:13,216 And here at The Undefeated, 1572 01:04:13,216 --> 01:04:14,951 we believe in black history always, 1573 01:04:14,951 --> 01:04:16,619 every month of the year. 1574 01:04:16,619 --> 01:04:19,322 So congratulations on this film. 1575 01:04:19,322 --> 01:04:21,023 It's a monumental achievement. 1576 01:04:21,023 --> 01:04:21,858 Thank you, Ken. 1577 01:04:21,858 --> 01:04:23,226 Thank you, Rasheda. 1578 01:04:23,226 --> 01:04:24,660 Thank you, Howard. 1579 01:04:24,660 --> 01:04:26,863 And to our audience, thank you for joining us. 1580 01:04:26,863 --> 01:04:28,998 Please tune in for more of these conversations 1581 01:04:28,998 --> 01:04:30,199 and the film itself, 1582 01:04:30,199 --> 01:04:33,002 which premieres on September 19th on PBS.