WEBVTT 00:05.005 --> 00:06.239 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Narrator] He was bigger than boxing. 00:06.239 --> 00:07.607 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - [Ali] I am the greatest! 00:08.775 --> 00:10.343 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Narrator] He was larger than life. 00:10.343 --> 00:12.512 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - His magnetism just was amazing. 00:12.512 --> 00:13.646 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Who is this guy? 00:13.646 --> 00:15.315 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - He was a revolutionary. 00:15.315 --> 00:16.783 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He was a groundbreaker. 00:16.783 --> 00:18.918 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Ain't nobody gon' stop me! 00:18.918 --> 00:20.954 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Narrator] Ken Burns captures an intimate story 00:20.954 --> 00:23.790 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of victory, defeat and determination. 00:23.790 --> 00:25.692 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - The price of freedom comes high. 00:25.692 --> 00:28.094 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I have paid but I am free. 00:28.094 --> 00:29.162 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - [Narrator] Muhammad Ali. 00:29.162 --> 00:30.363 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Tune in or stream. 00:30.363 --> 00:32.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Starts Sunday, September 19th at 8/7 Central, 00:32.866 --> 00:33.867 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% only on PBS. 00:37.904 --> 00:39.072 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Good evening 00:39.072 --> 00:40.640 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and welcome to the first event 00:40.640 --> 00:42.042 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in our discussion series, 00:42.042 --> 00:44.878 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Conversations on Muhammad Ali presented 00:44.878 --> 00:48.615 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "by PBS and ESPN's The Undefeated." 00:48.615 --> 00:52.652 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% I'm Sylvia Bugg, Chief Programming Executive at PBS. 00:52.652 --> 00:54.354 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% For more than 50 years, 00:54.354 --> 00:56.222 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% PBS has been proud to serve 00:56.222 --> 00:58.625 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% as America's home for documentaries; 00:58.625 --> 01:02.095 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% providing our audiences with impactful and inspiring films 01:02.095 --> 01:05.498 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that cover a wide range of topics and perspectives. 01:05.498 --> 01:07.834 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% This September, PBS is delighted 01:07.834 --> 01:10.303 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to present the latest from Ken Burns, 01:10.303 --> 01:13.406 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Sarah Burns, David McMahon, and their team; 01:13.406 --> 01:17.077 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a four-part documentary series on the global icon, 01:17.077 --> 01:18.578 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Muhammad Ali. 01:18.578 --> 01:20.747 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This series take us deep into the life 01:20.747 --> 01:22.782 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of one of the most indelible figures 01:22.782 --> 01:24.417 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of the 20th century, 01:24.417 --> 01:26.519 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% showing us the true nature of the man 01:26.519 --> 01:28.288 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who called himself "The Greatest" 01:28.288 --> 01:29.756 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and proved it. 01:29.756 --> 01:33.159 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Today's discussion, simply titled "Ali: The Man," 01:33.159 --> 01:36.029 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% will explore the humanity of Muhammad Ali 01:36.029 --> 01:37.464 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% as a loving father, 01:37.464 --> 01:38.865 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% an advocate for peace, 01:38.865 --> 01:41.267 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and an inspirational voice of pride 01:41.267 --> 01:44.204 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and self-affirmation in the black community. 01:44.204 --> 01:45.638 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% In just a few moments, 01:45.638 --> 01:48.141 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we'll show you the introduction to the film. 01:48.141 --> 01:51.711 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Then, senior writer for The Undefeated, Jesse Washington, 01:51.711 --> 01:53.513 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% will moderate a conversation 01:53.513 --> 01:55.515 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% with co-director Ken Burns, 01:55.515 --> 01:57.884 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Muhammad Ali's daughter, Rasheda Ali, 01:57.884 --> 02:01.154 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and author and sports columnist, Howard Bryant. 02:01.154 --> 02:03.089 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Thank you for joining us this evening 02:03.089 --> 02:05.959 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and please enjoy this evening's discussion. 02:05.959 --> 02:07.427 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And don't forget to tune in 02:07.427 --> 02:09.295 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to the premiere of "Muhammad Ali" 02:09.295 --> 02:13.967 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% on September 19th at 8:00 PM Eastern Time on PBS 02:19.706 --> 02:21.608 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Can I have some of your corn flakes? 02:22.742 --> 02:24.010 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Oh, I don't want none. 02:24.010 --> 02:25.845 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I won't take none, I won't take any. 02:25.845 --> 02:28.681 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I won't eat any if you don't want me to. 02:28.681 --> 02:29.516 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Oh, look at the pretty horsey! 02:29.516 --> 02:31.784 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Is that a white horse? 02:31.784 --> 02:32.719 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% See? 02:32.719 --> 02:33.953 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Stand up, look over there. 02:33.953 --> 02:35.922 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Stand up, you gotta stand up (indistinct). 02:37.157 --> 02:39.559 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (indistinct) 02:43.129 --> 02:43.963 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% What? 02:46.866 --> 02:49.636 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (crowd cheering) 02:54.107 --> 02:56.142 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - My earliest memories that I can think of 02:56.142 --> 02:59.345 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as a child with my father are walking through airports 02:59.345 --> 03:00.780 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and being in crowds, 03:00.780 --> 03:04.217 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and feeling the vibrations of people's clapping 03:04.217 --> 03:06.019 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and shouts in my chest. 03:06.019 --> 03:07.787 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% And just looking at my dad, 03:07.787 --> 03:09.589 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% like "Who is this person?" 03:10.823 --> 03:13.560 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it was all the time, anywhere we went. 03:13.560 --> 03:14.727 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "You're the greatest, we love you!" 03:14.727 --> 03:17.263 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And the clapping and "Muhammad!" 03:17.263 --> 03:18.565 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Ali Bomaye! 03:18.565 --> 03:20.066 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Ali Bomaye! 03:20.066 --> 03:21.267 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - [Crowd] Ali! 03:21.267 --> 03:22.335 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Bomaye! 03:22.335 --> 03:23.570 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Ali! 03:23.570 --> 03:25.004 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Bomaye! 03:25.004 --> 03:27.240 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - We now think of Muhammad Ali 03:27.240 --> 03:29.275 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% as this vulnerable guy, 03:29.275 --> 03:31.010 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% lighting the torch in Atlanta 03:31.010 --> 03:33.880 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and everybody on the globe loves him. 03:33.880 --> 03:35.114 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Black people like him, 03:35.114 --> 03:35.949 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% white people. 03:35.949 --> 03:37.517 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% He's a universal hero, 03:37.517 --> 03:40.687 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% almost in a religious way, like the Buddha. 03:41.854 --> 03:43.489 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But when he was in the midst of his career, 03:43.489 --> 03:44.757 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and not just in the early bit, 03:44.757 --> 03:47.460 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he was incredibly divisive. 03:47.460 --> 03:50.196 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Boo, yell, scream, throw peanuts, 03:50.196 --> 03:51.764 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but whatever you do, 03:51.764 --> 03:54.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% pay to get in. 03:54.100 --> 03:55.735 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - People hated him, 03:55.735 --> 03:57.003 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% whether it was along racial lines, 03:57.003 --> 03:58.738 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% class lines, Vietnam lines, 03:58.738 --> 04:00.707 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% political lines, religious lines, 04:00.707 --> 04:02.175 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or they just couldn't stand him. 04:02.175 --> 04:03.710 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And people, of course, had the opposite 04:03.710 --> 04:04.811 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and this was, "I loved him! 04:04.811 --> 04:06.145 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% "Loved him!" 04:06.145 --> 04:08.748 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% (upbeat music) But you had an opinion 04:08.748 --> 04:09.582 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% about him. 04:14.721 --> 04:17.390 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - (indistinct) 04:23.396 --> 04:27.267 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Look how pretty I am. 04:27.267 --> 04:28.568 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% The long, trimmed legs, 04:28.568 --> 04:29.502 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and the beautiful arms, 04:29.502 --> 04:31.037 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and a pretty nose and mouth. 04:31.037 --> 04:32.438 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I know I'm a pretty man. 04:32.438 --> 04:33.673 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I know I'm pretty. 04:33.673 --> 04:35.208 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You don't have to tell me I'm pretty. 04:35.208 --> 04:37.143 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Ali V.O] I'm cocky, I'm proud. 04:37.143 --> 04:38.945 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - You never talk about who gon' stop me, 04:38.945 --> 04:40.446 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% 'case ain't nobody gonna stop me! 04:40.446 --> 04:41.881 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - I say what I wanted to say! 04:41.881 --> 04:44.117 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It ain't no more big niggas talking like this. 04:45.151 --> 04:47.020 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - He was a pioneer. 04:47.020 --> 04:48.588 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He was a revolutionary. 04:48.588 --> 04:50.390 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He was a ground breaker. 04:50.390 --> 04:54.827 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% A guy known simply as "The Greatest." 04:54.827 --> 04:57.196 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - I am the greatest! 04:57.196 --> 04:58.931 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Ali V.O] I've rassled with alligators, 04:58.931 --> 05:00.667 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I've tussled with a whale. 05:00.667 --> 05:02.535 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I done handcuffed lightning, 05:02.535 --> 05:03.936 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and put thunder in jail. 05:03.936 --> 05:05.271 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% You know I'm bad! 05:07.940 --> 05:09.709 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I can drown the drink of water 05:09.709 --> 05:11.244 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and kill a dead tree. 05:11.244 --> 05:13.179 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - This will be no contest. 05:13.179 --> 05:15.348 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Ali V.O] Wait 'til you see Muhammad Ali. 05:17.150 --> 05:18.685 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - To have that chutzpah 05:18.685 --> 05:22.255 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% and to be a black man in America was just outlandish. 05:23.356 --> 05:24.691 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - "Muhammad" means "worthy of all praises;" 05:24.691 --> 05:26.793 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and "Ali" means "most high." 05:26.793 --> 05:28.161 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - And I just don't think 05:28.161 --> 05:29.896 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I should go 10,000 miles in there 05:29.896 --> 05:32.398 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and shoot some black people that never called me nigger. 05:32.398 --> 05:33.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I just can't shoot 'em. 05:33.933 --> 05:36.135 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - I always wonder why Miss America was always white, 05:36.135 --> 05:37.270 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Santa Claus is white, 05:37.270 --> 05:38.304 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% White Swan Soap, 05:38.304 --> 05:39.505 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% King White Soap, 05:39.505 --> 05:41.107 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% White Cloud tissue paper, 05:41.107 --> 05:42.375 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and everything bad was black. 05:42.375 --> 05:44.777 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Black cat was the bad luck. 05:44.777 --> 05:47.547 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And if I threaten you, I'm going to blackmail you. 05:48.748 --> 05:50.817 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I said, "Mama, why don't they call it whitemail? 05:50.817 --> 05:51.984 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% "They lie too." 05:51.984 --> 05:53.453 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - I loved being around him. 05:53.453 --> 05:56.356 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% I love being around Muhammad Ali. 05:56.356 --> 06:00.460 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - You gon' float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. 06:01.394 --> 06:03.396 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Rumble, young man, rumble. 06:04.497 --> 06:06.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - The price of freedom comes high. 06:06.566 --> 06:08.701 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I have paid but I am free. 06:13.773 --> 06:15.942 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Announcer] The winner and still 06:15.942 --> 06:20.947 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the heavyweight champion of the world. 06:37.830 --> 06:40.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Narrator] He called himself "The Greatest" 06:40.233 --> 06:43.236 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and then proved it to the entire world. 06:43.236 --> 06:47.173 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He was a master at what is called "the sweet science;" 06:47.173 --> 06:51.477 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the brutal and, sometimes, beautiful art of boxing. 06:51.477 --> 06:55.081 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Heavyweight champion at just 22 years old, 06:55.081 --> 06:56.582 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% he wrote his own rules 06:56.582 --> 06:58.985 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in the ring and in his life, 06:58.985 --> 07:00.720 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% infuriating his critics, 07:00.720 --> 07:02.121 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% baffling his opponents, 07:02.121 --> 07:04.724 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and riveting millions of fans. 07:06.259 --> 07:08.594 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% At the height of the Civil Rights Movement, 07:08.594 --> 07:11.097 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he joined a separatist religious sect 07:11.097 --> 07:12.999 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% whose leader would, for a time, 07:12.999 --> 07:14.934 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% dominate both his personal life 07:14.934 --> 07:17.437 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and his boxing career. 07:17.437 --> 07:20.940 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He spoke his mind and stood on principle, 07:20.940 --> 07:22.809 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% even when it cost him his livelihood. 07:23.910 --> 07:26.579 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He redefined black manhood, 07:26.579 --> 07:29.549 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% yet belittled his greatest rival using 07:29.549 --> 07:31.984 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the racist language of the Jim Crow South, 07:31.984 --> 07:33.519 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in which he had been raised. 07:35.521 --> 07:37.023 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Banished for his beliefs, 07:37.023 --> 07:39.158 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he returned to boxing an underdog, 07:39.158 --> 07:41.327 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% reclaimed his title twice, 07:41.327 --> 07:45.398 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and became the most famous man on earth. 07:45.398 --> 07:49.535 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He craved adulation his whole life, 07:49.535 --> 07:51.737 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% seeking crowds on street corners, 07:51.737 --> 07:53.039 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in hotel lobbies, 07:53.039 --> 07:54.941 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% on airport tarmacs, 07:54.941 --> 07:57.143 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% everywhere he went, 07:57.143 --> 08:00.279 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and reveled in the uninhibited joy 08:00.279 --> 08:02.148 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he brought each adoring fan. 08:04.116 --> 08:06.352 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He earned a massive fortune, 08:06.352 --> 08:08.087 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% spent it freely, 08:08.087 --> 08:11.190 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and gave generously to family, friends, 08:11.190 --> 08:14.126 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% even strangers, anyone in need. 08:15.228 --> 08:17.830 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Service to others," he often said, 08:17.830 --> 08:22.401 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "is the rent you pay for your room here on earth." 08:22.401 --> 08:25.872 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Even after his body began to betray him 08:25.872 --> 08:28.708 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and his brain had absorbed too many blows, 08:28.708 --> 08:30.109 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% he fought on, 08:30.109 --> 08:33.312 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% unable to go without the attention and drama 08:33.312 --> 08:34.747 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that accompanied each bout. 08:36.649 --> 08:39.285 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Later, slowed and silenced by 08:39.285 --> 08:41.420 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% a cruel and crippling disease, 08:41.420 --> 08:44.657 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he found refuge in his faith; 08:44.657 --> 08:47.760 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% becoming a symbol of peace and hope on every continent. 08:49.962 --> 08:53.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "Muhammad Ali was," the novelist, Norman Mailer wrote, 08:53.566 --> 08:56.235 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "the very spirit of the 20th century." 08:58.237 --> 08:59.872 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I've always wanted to be one black one 08:59.872 --> 09:02.708 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who got big or your white televisions, 09:02.708 --> 09:04.076 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% on your white newspapers, 09:04.076 --> 09:05.444 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% on your satellites, 09:05.444 --> 09:06.579 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% million dollar checks, 09:06.579 --> 09:08.347 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and still look you in your face, 09:08.347 --> 09:09.582 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and tell you the truth, 09:09.582 --> 09:12.919 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and 100% stay with and represent my people, 09:12.919 --> 09:14.587 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and not leave them and sell them out 09:14.587 --> 09:15.454 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% because I'm rich, 09:15.454 --> 09:16.389 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and stay with them. 09:16.389 --> 09:17.623 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% That was my purpose. 09:17.623 --> 09:19.091 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm here and I'm showing the world 09:19.091 --> 09:21.894 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that you can be here and still free, 09:21.894 --> 09:23.162 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and stay yourself, 09:23.162 --> 09:24.997 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and get respect from the world. 09:36.509 --> 09:38.144 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Welcome, welcome, welcome everyone, 09:38.144 --> 09:40.279 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm Jesse Washington from The Undefeated. 09:40.279 --> 09:42.515 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Really pleased to be here today 09:42.515 --> 09:45.985 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to discuss this wonderful new film, "Muhammad Ali." 09:45.985 --> 09:47.887 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'd like to introduce our panelists. 09:47.887 --> 09:51.991 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% First, we have the director himself, Ken Burns; 09:51.991 --> 09:54.160 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the prolific documentary filmmaker 09:54.160 --> 09:57.296 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% whose credits are far too numerous to name here. 09:57.296 --> 09:59.665 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But he is bringing us this new look 09:59.665 --> 10:03.536 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% at the life and meaning of "The Greatest of All Time." 10:03.536 --> 10:04.737 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think it's important to note 10:04.737 --> 10:05.972 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that there's a lot of talk 10:05.972 --> 10:07.740 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about GOAT this and GOAT that these days, 10:07.740 --> 10:09.008 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% it's become almost a cliche. 10:09.008 --> 10:11.210 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We've got herds of GOATs everywhere, 10:11.210 --> 10:14.480 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but there is only one "Greatest of All Time" 10:14.480 --> 10:17.450 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% when it comes to athletics in this country 10:17.450 --> 10:18.718 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% forever and ever, 10:18.718 --> 10:20.152 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and that is Muhammad Ali. 10:20.152 --> 10:21.687 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Ken Burns, welcome 10:21.687 --> 10:23.322 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and we're glad to have you. 10:23.322 --> 10:24.323 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Thank you, Jesse. 10:24.323 --> 10:25.424 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% It's great to be working with you 10:25.424 --> 10:26.892 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and The Undefeated, 10:26.892 --> 10:30.329 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and on behalf of Sarah Burns and David McMahon, 10:30.329 --> 10:31.697 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who are the two co-directors 10:31.697 --> 10:33.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and those two are the writers, 10:33.366 --> 10:36.535 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we're so grateful to be part of this. 10:36.535 --> 10:38.504 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Thank you. - Thank you. 10:38.504 --> 10:41.340 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We also have Howard Bryant here with us, 10:41.340 --> 10:44.210 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the journalist and author of nine books. 10:44.210 --> 10:46.979 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Most recently, his most latest book, 10:46.979 --> 10:51.150 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is "Full Dissidence: Notes From an Uneven Playing Field." 10:51.150 --> 10:54.820 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And Howard is a longtime columnist at ESPN, 10:54.820 --> 10:58.224 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% has worked at many other newspaper outlets 10:58.224 --> 10:59.458 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in this country. 10:59.458 --> 11:00.693 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% All of the best ones, if I may say. 11:00.693 --> 11:03.295 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And is also a newly minted contributor 11:03.295 --> 11:04.830 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to Meadowlark Media, 11:04.830 --> 11:07.967 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% where we will be seeing more of his work 11:07.967 --> 11:10.302 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in a variety of other forms and platforms. 11:10.302 --> 11:12.371 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Howard, welcome. - Thank you, Jesse. 11:12.371 --> 11:15.241 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Good seeing you again. - Good to see you too. 11:15.241 --> 11:18.477 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And also we have Rasheda Ali, 11:18.477 --> 11:21.480 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% an author, speaker, humanitarian, 11:21.480 --> 11:23.549 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and daughter of Muhammad Ali. 11:23.549 --> 11:26.285 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Rasheda, it's great to have you here today. 11:26.285 --> 11:27.553 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Hi Jesse, thanks for having me. 11:27.553 --> 11:29.655 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm honored. - You're very welcome. 11:29.655 --> 11:31.457 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We're honored to be here with you. 11:31.457 --> 11:34.260 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% So wonderful film, Ken. 11:34.260 --> 11:36.395 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It was great to see an early version of it. 11:36.395 --> 11:39.298 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I was enraptured and riveted by your work. 11:39.298 --> 11:41.567 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And the first thing I'd like to ask you is 11:41.567 --> 11:44.637 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that you're approaching this giant, 11:44.637 --> 11:46.072 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% so much has been written, 11:46.072 --> 11:48.207 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% so much has been said. 11:48.207 --> 11:49.775 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Films upon films, 11:49.775 --> 11:51.110 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% books upon books. 11:51.110 --> 11:54.346 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What is it that you wanted accomplish 11:54.346 --> 11:56.449 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when you started out with this film, 11:56.449 --> 11:57.983 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and now that it's finished 11:57.983 --> 12:00.786 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and about to be released on September 19th on PBS, 12:00.786 --> 12:02.421 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what is it that you want people to learn 12:02.421 --> 12:04.957 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% from this film about Ali? 12:04.957 --> 12:07.426 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Oh, that's a complicated question. 12:07.426 --> 12:10.730 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Thank you, and Sarah and Dave would probably have 12:10.730 --> 12:13.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% different variations of that question... 12:13.733 --> 12:16.135 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Or the answer to that question. 12:16.135 --> 12:17.203 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You know, we're drawn to him. 12:17.203 --> 12:18.971 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He's a spellbinding, 12:18.971 --> 12:20.539 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% hugely important person 12:20.539 --> 12:22.341 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in the history of the United States. 12:22.341 --> 12:23.976 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's not just sports. 12:23.976 --> 12:25.878 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I'm drawn to him personally. 12:25.878 --> 12:27.613 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% In the course of my professional life, 12:27.613 --> 12:30.950 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I've gotten to know a lot of amazing Americans. 12:30.950 --> 12:33.753 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Only two others come to mind that have 12:33.753 --> 12:35.855 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% a sense of charisma, 12:35.855 --> 12:37.089 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% a sense of purpose, 12:37.089 --> 12:39.592 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a sense of being able to embody us 12:39.592 --> 12:41.427 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in all of our contradictions. 12:41.427 --> 12:42.762 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% One of them is Abraham Lincoln 12:42.762 --> 12:44.330 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and the other is Louis Armstrong, 12:44.330 --> 12:48.567 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and Muhammad Ali is in that select group 12:48.567 --> 12:50.436 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of someone who's just personally touched me. 12:50.436 --> 12:53.005 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm not talking about where he is placed 12:53.005 --> 12:54.707 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in the pantheon of sportspeople. 12:54.707 --> 12:56.675 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I agree with you Jesse, he's at the top. 12:58.244 --> 13:00.246 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There are a lot of films about him. 13:00.246 --> 13:03.883 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% There are a lot of really, really good films about him 13:03.883 --> 13:06.485 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but I think what we wanted to do is do 13:06.485 --> 13:10.089 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a true biography from his boyhood in Louisville, 13:10.089 --> 13:11.924 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in Jim Crow America, 13:11.924 --> 13:16.929 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% up to his death not too many years ago by Parkinson's 13:18.564 --> 13:19.965 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and everything in between. 13:19.965 --> 13:22.001 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So not just a couple of fights, 13:22.001 --> 13:25.504 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there's two dozen that are treated in detail, 13:25.504 --> 13:28.140 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% not just his difficulties 13:28.140 --> 13:29.975 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% with the United States over 13:29.975 --> 13:31.911 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the draft and induction, 13:31.911 --> 13:34.680 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% not just this or that, but the whole thing, 13:34.680 --> 13:38.017 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and try to get a sense of who the whole man is, 13:38.017 --> 13:39.285 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% warts and all, 13:39.285 --> 13:41.654 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as the introduction, I think, suggested. 13:41.654 --> 13:43.322 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And it would be so presumptuous 13:43.322 --> 13:44.290 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of any one of us, 13:44.290 --> 13:45.758 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Sarah, Dave, or me, 13:45.758 --> 13:48.661 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to say this is "What you should take away." 13:48.661 --> 13:50.563 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We just want to tell a good 13:50.563 --> 13:51.730 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and complicated story 13:51.730 --> 13:55.201 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that is able to contain contradictions. 13:55.201 --> 13:58.337 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But at the end, you begin to realize 13:58.337 --> 14:01.273 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% how extraordinarily gifted this man was, 14:01.273 --> 14:03.542 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% not just at his chosen profession, 14:03.542 --> 14:06.478 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but at the profession of being a human being. 14:06.478 --> 14:08.681 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, I've said this a few times; 14:08.681 --> 14:11.250 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's always really good 14:11.250 --> 14:13.919 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% if you leave this planet being 14:13.919 --> 14:16.722 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the most beloved person on this planet. 14:16.722 --> 14:19.725 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that's what all of us should be tilting 14:19.725 --> 14:21.327 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% towards if we can. 14:21.327 --> 14:23.329 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He did, and he was, 14:23.329 --> 14:26.332 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I'm interested in who that is. 14:26.332 --> 14:28.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm interested in it, warts and all. 14:29.401 --> 14:31.303 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But at the end of the day, 14:32.404 --> 14:34.206 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% it's about love. 14:34.206 --> 14:36.442 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% That's what he understood. 14:36.442 --> 14:40.779 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And there are people who spend a long time trying 14:40.779 --> 14:42.114 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% to get at that, 14:42.114 --> 14:43.616 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% he got at it. 14:43.616 --> 14:44.817 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He understood it. 14:44.817 --> 14:46.752 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I'm so happy that Rasheda is here 14:46.752 --> 14:49.088 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because she carries not only 14:49.088 --> 14:52.658 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% whatever genetics, the bloodline, 14:52.658 --> 14:57.663 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but she also carries this sense of love and spirit. 14:58.831 --> 15:01.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And having Rasheda close to me is like 15:01.200 --> 15:03.769 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he's still here in a way. 15:06.238 --> 15:07.473 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Absolutely. 15:07.473 --> 15:10.876 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So Rasheda, I was struck as I watched the film, 15:10.876 --> 15:13.112 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and as I thought about our world today, 15:13.112 --> 15:14.647 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% how we still... 15:15.781 --> 15:19.351 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Islam has not truly been accepted in America. 15:19.351 --> 15:20.853 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I was struck by the fact that 15:20.853 --> 15:22.788 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% so many people mispronounced 15:22.788 --> 15:24.189 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the word "Muslim" in the movie, 15:24.189 --> 15:27.326 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or mispronounce the word "Islam," you know? 15:27.326 --> 15:29.662 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so, what is it that you might hope 15:29.662 --> 15:32.364 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or think that America can learn 15:32.364 --> 15:34.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about your father and his relationship 15:34.566 --> 15:36.402 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to his faith from this film? 15:38.070 --> 15:39.338 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Thank you so much. 15:39.338 --> 15:40.339 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% First of all, I wanna thank you so much, Ken 15:40.339 --> 15:41.473 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% for those beautiful words. 15:41.473 --> 15:42.741 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And thank you, Jesse. 15:43.976 --> 15:45.577 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I think my dad, 15:45.577 --> 15:47.446 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% he led by example. 15:47.446 --> 15:50.582 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So he was a great role model, 15:50.582 --> 15:52.318 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% not just for us 15:52.318 --> 15:53.585 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but for the whole world, 15:53.585 --> 15:56.055 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because I think when my dad did was 15:56.055 --> 15:58.257 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he wanted to urge us to be 15:58.257 --> 15:59.892 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the best version of ourselves 15:59.892 --> 16:01.994 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and to push ourselves to become better 16:01.994 --> 16:04.296 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% than who we think we are. 16:04.296 --> 16:08.434 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So he adopted this faith and he was... 16:08.434 --> 16:10.436 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It was full circle. 16:10.436 --> 16:12.338 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He really was passionate about joining 16:12.338 --> 16:13.539 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the Nation of Islam, 16:13.539 --> 16:16.108 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it gave him so much courage and bravery 16:16.108 --> 16:19.979 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% at a time where his people were being lynched and killed, 16:19.979 --> 16:21.413 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and segregation was going on, 16:21.413 --> 16:24.583 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and there was so much hate against our people. 16:24.583 --> 16:27.453 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He felt that this religion was the one 16:27.453 --> 16:30.222 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that was going to give him the power 16:30.222 --> 16:33.659 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to believe in himself and his people. 16:33.659 --> 16:36.996 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so, he did all that thinking of his people. 16:36.996 --> 16:39.331 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% His people were always something that he had in mind 16:39.331 --> 16:40.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% whenever he did things 16:40.766 --> 16:44.136 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because anything he did, he empowered them. 16:44.136 --> 16:47.106 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so, as the religion evolved, 16:47.106 --> 16:52.111 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he became even more spiritual as a man 16:53.278 --> 16:57.416 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because this religion, Islam made him not only 16:58.951 --> 17:00.552 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% strong mentally, 17:00.552 --> 17:02.988 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but it gave him the courage to do things 17:02.988 --> 17:06.759 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that I don't think he normally would have been able to do 17:06.759 --> 17:10.362 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% if he didn't have his religion backing him up, 17:10.362 --> 17:11.196 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% so to speak. 17:11.196 --> 17:12.698 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% So he felt like.... 17:12.698 --> 17:15.534 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And there are clips in this film 17:15.534 --> 17:16.902 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that I've never seen before, 17:16.902 --> 17:19.905 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I've seen probably thousands in my life. 17:19.905 --> 17:22.007 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I mean, I've just over and over. 17:22.007 --> 17:23.976 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But there were really interesting clips 17:23.976 --> 17:27.646 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I know most of you have already seen the clip 17:27.646 --> 17:29.481 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% where he says I'll face gunfire 17:29.481 --> 17:32.351 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% without denouncing my faith and my religion. 17:32.351 --> 17:36.188 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So if we can all adopt his passion 17:36.188 --> 17:40.826 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and his love for faith and in God, 17:40.826 --> 17:42.761 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% or some higher power, 17:42.761 --> 17:46.665 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think we'll all already be that much closer 17:46.665 --> 17:50.269 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to getting what we're all seeking, 17:50.269 --> 17:52.304 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and Ken said it so well, 17:52.304 --> 17:53.739 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and that's love. 17:53.739 --> 17:55.774 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think that's what makes the world go round. 17:57.276 --> 18:00.179 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% My dad adopted a religion 18:00.179 --> 18:01.780 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that was not socially accepted. 18:01.780 --> 18:03.248 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% It's still not. 18:03.248 --> 18:07.719 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So I think our passion to be able 18:07.719 --> 18:11.056 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to become role models for those 18:11.056 --> 18:14.359 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who still have Islamophobia on their minds, 18:14.359 --> 18:17.763 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we have to remember that people are looking 18:17.763 --> 18:20.265 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% at us as Muslim all the time, 18:20.265 --> 18:21.867 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% trying to find out, 18:21.867 --> 18:24.436 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when are we going to make a mistake? 18:24.436 --> 18:26.138 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And when are we going to commit a crime? 18:26.138 --> 18:30.042 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So I think my dad felt his responsibility 18:30.042 --> 18:32.211 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as a Muslim was to become 18:32.211 --> 18:35.914 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a role model for people who are Muslim, 18:35.914 --> 18:37.382 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but not only that, 18:37.382 --> 18:39.451 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but for people who are trying to find themselves, 18:39.451 --> 18:40.953 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% trying to find their faith, 18:40.953 --> 18:42.821 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I think he did a very good job of that. 18:42.821 --> 18:45.157 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He wasn't perfect, as we know that. 18:45.157 --> 18:47.226 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% (indistinct) humanize my dad. 18:47.226 --> 18:50.028 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% In this film, he wasn't perfect. 18:50.028 --> 18:52.364 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He was human, just like all of us. 18:59.338 --> 19:00.439 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Jesse, you're muted. 19:02.174 --> 19:03.709 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Thank you. 19:03.709 --> 19:05.611 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Those contradictions are fascinating. 19:07.179 --> 19:09.715 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% How a man can emanate so much love 19:09.715 --> 19:11.583 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and still do what he did to some 19:11.583 --> 19:13.652 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of these people in the ring is 19:13.652 --> 19:15.921 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% one of the most interesting journeys 19:15.921 --> 19:17.422 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that there is in the field. 19:17.422 --> 19:19.258 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Howard, I wanted to ask you, 19:19.258 --> 19:20.692 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% there can never be another Ali 19:20.692 --> 19:23.295 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because of who he was and what he did 19:23.295 --> 19:25.264 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% at the time that he did it, 19:25.264 --> 19:27.132 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in the tumultuous 1960s, 19:27.132 --> 19:29.935 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when black people, as a whole, in America, 19:29.935 --> 19:32.604 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% were taking control of their destiny. 19:32.604 --> 19:36.074 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so, we've just, in 2020, came through 19:36.074 --> 19:40.712 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% another tumultuous and incredibly moving 19:40.712 --> 19:43.415 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% and... 19:43.415 --> 19:48.420 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Emotional upheaval and a racial reckoning, awakening, 19:49.288 --> 19:50.389 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% something along those lines. 19:50.389 --> 19:52.858 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We're still processing what it was. 19:52.858 --> 19:56.195 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Ali doing what he did when he did it... 19:56.195 --> 19:57.729 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And now, it's fashionable 19:57.729 --> 20:02.634 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for athletes to be "aware" or "activists" 20:02.634 --> 20:04.069 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or all this kind of stuff. 20:04.069 --> 20:06.705 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And a lot of these young athletes who probably do care 20:06.705 --> 20:10.342 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about racial justice don't know Ali's story. 20:10.342 --> 20:13.412 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So what lessons do you think Ali 20:13.412 --> 20:15.047 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and what he did, 20:15.047 --> 20:17.883 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% today's athletes should really take 20:17.883 --> 20:19.751 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and learn from and use 20:19.751 --> 20:21.987 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as they try to use their platforms 20:21.987 --> 20:23.488 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% as he used his? 20:23.488 --> 20:24.856 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Yeah, well for me, 20:24.856 --> 20:26.858 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I just feel like the biggest thing, 20:26.858 --> 20:28.160 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% when I think about Muhammad, 20:28.160 --> 20:30.696 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I always think about risk. 20:30.696 --> 20:32.397 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And risk not to himself, 20:32.397 --> 20:37.236 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but the type of risk that is very much prevalent today 20:37.236 --> 20:39.137 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when it comes to professional athletes, 20:39.137 --> 20:40.806 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and that is you are asked to make a deal 20:40.806 --> 20:42.040 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% when you're a pro athlete. 20:42.040 --> 20:44.876 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that deal is to really separate yourself 20:44.876 --> 20:45.844 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% from your own people. 20:45.844 --> 20:47.613 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You're constantly being asked 20:47.613 --> 20:49.248 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% not to advocate for black people. 20:49.248 --> 20:51.550 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You're constantly asked to hang out 20:51.550 --> 20:52.618 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% with a different crowd 20:52.618 --> 20:55.621 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or you know that in the culture, 20:55.621 --> 20:57.189 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% being what it is today, 20:57.189 --> 21:02.094 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% simply advocating for or supporting black people is 21:02.694 --> 21:04.263 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% a political act. 21:04.263 --> 21:07.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know that because the minute somebody says 21:07.366 --> 21:10.235 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% something that's in support of black people, 21:10.235 --> 21:11.637 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% it becomes a news story. 21:11.637 --> 21:12.971 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Why is it so controversial? 21:12.971 --> 21:14.039 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Why is this such a risk? 21:14.039 --> 21:15.274 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Why is it such a... 21:15.274 --> 21:17.042 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Why are you putting your entire career 21:17.042 --> 21:18.877 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in jeopardy simply by saying, 21:18.877 --> 21:23.115 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% "I support the people of Ferguson or Baltimore or whatever"? 21:23.115 --> 21:25.250 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So I think that's one of the things 21:25.250 --> 21:27.319 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that needs to be done, 21:27.319 --> 21:30.555 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that maybe athletes have a great shot of doing right now, 21:30.555 --> 21:32.491 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% which is demystifying the idea 21:32.491 --> 21:33.959 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of supporting black people, right? 21:33.959 --> 21:38.230 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, why is this the defining thing 21:38.230 --> 21:40.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that can threaten your livelihood? 21:40.966 --> 21:44.436 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so, I think that's one of the biggest things for me 21:44.436 --> 21:45.971 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when I think about athletes today. 21:45.971 --> 21:48.640 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think the secondary thing is 21:50.008 --> 21:53.745 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the idea of the comparison. 21:53.745 --> 21:56.248 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You're not going to compare yourself to this man 21:56.248 --> 21:59.484 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it's not because he was so great, 21:59.484 --> 22:00.719 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% even though he was; 22:00.719 --> 22:03.889 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the real reason is is because what he did 22:03.889 --> 22:05.857 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and what Jackie Robinson did, 22:05.857 --> 22:07.526 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and what so many before us did, 22:07.526 --> 22:09.961 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% made it unnecessary for you 22:09.961 --> 22:12.030 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to duplicate what he did. 22:12.030 --> 22:16.034 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And I think that's the road, 22:16.034 --> 22:17.402 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when you think about the Colin Kaepernicks, 22:17.402 --> 22:19.037 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when you think about LeBron James, 22:19.037 --> 22:20.339 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and you think about Serena Williams, 22:20.339 --> 22:21.873 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or whoever else is out there today, 22:21.873 --> 22:23.141 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% doing their thing, 22:23.141 --> 22:25.410 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% their paths are just different from his. 22:25.410 --> 22:27.145 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And you don't want his path. 22:27.145 --> 22:29.614 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You do not want the entire weight 22:29.614 --> 22:31.216 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of the federal government 22:31.216 --> 22:33.885 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and its people to come down on you. 22:33.885 --> 22:35.620 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You don't want what he went through. 22:35.620 --> 22:38.256 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And if you have to go through 22:38.256 --> 22:39.358 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% what he went through, 22:39.358 --> 22:41.360 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that says so much more about 22:41.360 --> 22:43.195 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what little progress this country has made 22:43.195 --> 22:45.030 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% than it would say about him. 22:48.333 --> 22:49.835 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Man, thank you. 22:49.835 --> 22:50.902 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% That's so accurate. 22:50.902 --> 22:53.839 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So Ken, I'd like you to setup 22:53.839 --> 22:55.507 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this next clip that we're going to watch, 22:55.507 --> 22:59.444 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and not to step on your toes here 22:59.444 --> 23:02.047 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but it was one of the most meaningful moments 23:02.047 --> 23:03.348 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of the film for me. 23:03.348 --> 23:06.752 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And really, I was sort of vaguely aware of it, 23:06.752 --> 23:09.087 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as much as I've read and seen about Ali, 23:09.087 --> 23:13.258 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but it packs such an emotional wallop for me. 23:13.258 --> 23:15.227 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So what does this next clip that we're about to see? 23:15.227 --> 23:16.728 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Well, thank you. 23:16.728 --> 23:19.598 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Two of our secret weapons in the film are here 23:19.598 --> 23:22.234 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with us this evening, Howard and Rasheda, 23:22.234 --> 23:23.468 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and they're wonderful. 23:23.468 --> 23:25.404 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% One of the others is a man named Michael Bentt, 23:25.404 --> 23:27.072 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who's a heavyweight fighter 23:27.072 --> 23:30.142 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who helps interpret mid fights. 23:30.142 --> 23:32.878 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's mainly, almost his entire presence, 23:32.878 --> 23:35.180 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is within the fights to help us 23:35.180 --> 23:38.450 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% perhaps some of us who don't understand it 23:38.450 --> 23:40.485 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and find it just brutal, 23:40.485 --> 23:41.720 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% understand what it's about. 23:41.720 --> 23:43.188 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% So this is 1966. 23:43.188 --> 23:45.390 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's been the champ for two years. 23:45.390 --> 23:48.593 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's announced when he won the championship 23:48.593 --> 23:50.162 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that he is a Muslim. 23:50.162 --> 23:52.264 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's caused him lots of problems. 23:52.264 --> 23:53.665 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He's had his license revoked 23:53.665 --> 23:55.267 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in some places in response. 23:55.267 --> 23:59.471 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's now said he is not going to be inducted 23:59.471 --> 24:01.573 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% into the United States Army, 24:01.573 --> 24:03.942 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and he's having a hard time finding fights. 24:03.942 --> 24:04.910 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He has to go to Canada, 24:04.910 --> 24:06.178 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% he goes to Europe, 24:06.178 --> 24:10.348 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and then he comes back and he has a fight. 24:10.348 --> 24:12.784 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And that's basically what we're going to show you, 24:12.784 --> 24:14.119 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% is this fight. 24:14.119 --> 24:15.353 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% So please roll the clip. 24:15.353 --> 24:17.289 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Narrator] After four fights abroad, 24:17.289 --> 24:19.157 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Ali's promoters had finally managed 24:19.157 --> 24:21.526 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to secure an American venue; 24:21.526 --> 24:24.095 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% The Astrodome in Houston, Texas. 24:24.095 --> 24:28.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% A brand new and first-of-its-kind domed stadium, 24:28.033 --> 24:30.936 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% dubbed "The Eighth Wonder of The World." 24:32.304 --> 24:35.474 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Ali had agreed to fight Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams, 24:35.474 --> 24:38.009 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% an army veteran who had once been shot 24:38.009 --> 24:39.144 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% by a police officer 24:39.144 --> 24:41.480 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% during a drunk driving arrest. 24:41.480 --> 24:45.951 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Williams had knocked out 51 of his 71 opponents. 24:46.985 --> 24:48.553 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It would be the largest audience 24:48.553 --> 24:51.156 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for an indoor boxing match in history. 24:56.161 --> 25:00.098 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - I think his masterpiece is with Cleveland Williams. 25:00.098 --> 25:02.534 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% That's Picasso, right? 25:02.534 --> 25:04.703 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% That's Baryshnikov, right? 25:04.703 --> 25:05.670 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% That's Miles Davis. 25:06.771 --> 25:10.175 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He throws like a 10-punch combination, 25:10.175 --> 25:11.643 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% he's going back with his man. 25:12.711 --> 25:13.545 align:left position:30% line:5% size:60% Now look, 25:16.248 --> 25:18.116 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I don't know how to define that. 25:18.116 --> 25:19.584 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I'm not a scientist, 25:19.584 --> 25:22.988 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but like that kind of artistry will never be seen again. 25:25.323 --> 25:26.725 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% When he did that, 25:27.759 --> 25:28.960 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% it looked effortless, 25:30.462 --> 25:35.467 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and it looked like he came out of the womb doing that. 25:39.804 --> 25:41.239 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Narrator] Introducing a new move 25:41.239 --> 25:43.241 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he dubbed "The Ali Shuffle," 25:43.241 --> 25:45.710 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he peppered Williams with jab after jab, 25:45.710 --> 25:47.178 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% as the Big Cat struggled 25:47.178 --> 25:48.346 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to land a single punch. 25:50.248 --> 25:52.384 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Ali floored his challenger three times 25:52.384 --> 25:53.385 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in the second round. 25:54.252 --> 25:55.854 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "It was a two-fisted assault 25:55.854 --> 25:57.322 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "of vicious effectiveness," 25:57.322 --> 25:59.591 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% wrote frequent critic, Arthur Daley, 25:59.591 --> 26:01.960 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who declared that Ali had won over 26:01.960 --> 26:02.861 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% all the doubters. 26:04.896 --> 26:06.398 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% A minute into the third round, 26:07.265 --> 26:08.934 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the referee ended the fight. 26:11.303 --> 26:14.039 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (crowd cheering) 26:17.242 --> 26:20.912 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - [Announcer] (indistinct) 26:30.121 --> 26:31.856 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Wow, wow. 26:31.856 --> 26:36.127 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, so aside from the physical display there, 26:36.127 --> 26:38.430 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm going to give them a little more context 26:38.430 --> 26:40.365 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% for the audience for this clip. 26:40.365 --> 26:43.068 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% In the lead up to this fight, 26:43.068 --> 26:46.271 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Ali had recently embraced the Nation of Islam 26:46.271 --> 26:48.306 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and had changed his name to Muhammad Ali, 26:48.306 --> 26:51.810 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and this boxer refused to call him by his name. 26:51.810 --> 26:53.678 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And throughout the whole fight, 26:53.678 --> 26:55.447 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Ali is tagging him, and tagging him, 26:55.447 --> 26:57.515 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and saying, "What's my name? 26:57.515 --> 26:59.017 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "What's my name?" 26:59.017 --> 27:03.622 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I found it rather resonant the victim there had a perm 27:05.390 --> 27:06.891 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in his hair, 27:06.891 --> 27:10.528 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% which is a sign of really of us being brainwashed 27:10.528 --> 27:12.397 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to want to be more like white people. 27:12.397 --> 27:14.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And then another really subtle thing 27:14.733 --> 27:16.234 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in that clip was 27:16.234 --> 27:17.736 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% after they called the fight 27:17.736 --> 27:18.870 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and Ali went back to his corner, 27:18.870 --> 27:20.505 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he turned over his shoulder 27:20.505 --> 27:25.210 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and gave this man a look of utter domination and contempt. 27:26.411 --> 27:28.413 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And it was just like... 27:28.413 --> 27:31.182 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It gave me chills to see it. 27:31.182 --> 27:34.185 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, "Oh, you're not going to use my name, Muhammad Ali? 27:34.185 --> 27:35.353 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "You're going to call me Clay? 27:35.353 --> 27:36.621 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Boom, I'm punching in your face. 27:36.621 --> 27:38.089 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "You can't do anything about it. 27:38.089 --> 27:39.524 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "Now, say my name." 27:39.524 --> 27:42.127 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, it was just so powerful to me. 27:42.127 --> 27:45.530 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it gets us to the Nation of Islam, 27:46.531 --> 27:48.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% which was a driving force, 27:48.566 --> 27:50.769 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% an overriding presence in Ali's life, 27:50.769 --> 27:53.872 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and really depicted in great detail, 27:53.872 --> 27:56.441 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and historically accurate detail, 27:56.441 --> 27:58.810 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% painful detail, in this film. 27:58.810 --> 28:01.146 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And there's a lot about the Nation 28:01.146 --> 28:02.447 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that is problematic. 28:03.848 --> 28:07.318 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The historian, Gerald Early calls it a cult. 28:07.318 --> 28:10.455 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Kareem Abdul-Jabbar says it's not true Islam. 28:10.455 --> 28:13.725 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And yet, it helped to give us 28:13.725 --> 28:15.694 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the great mindset 28:15.694 --> 28:19.731 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and everything of Muhammad Ali. 28:19.731 --> 28:22.801 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I did not know, Ken, that Elijah Muhammad, 28:22.801 --> 28:24.402 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the leader of the Nation of Islam, 28:24.402 --> 28:25.904 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% gave him that name. 28:25.904 --> 28:28.740 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Everyone else was "Something X" or "This X." 28:28.740 --> 28:31.843 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So Howard, I would like to ask you, 28:32.944 --> 28:34.446 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% what would Ali have been 28:34.446 --> 28:36.648 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% without the Nation of Islam? 28:36.648 --> 28:39.784 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Specifically, that brand of black Muslim? 28:39.784 --> 28:42.187 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What would Muhammad Ali have been? 28:42.187 --> 28:43.722 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, I think that's a great question, 28:43.722 --> 28:45.423 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but I would always step back 28:45.423 --> 28:47.892 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% when I think about Muhammad and I would ask, 28:47.892 --> 28:49.427 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "What would he be without Malcolm X?" 28:49.427 --> 28:52.130 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, that's the first connection. 28:52.130 --> 28:55.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And to so many people, 28:55.900 --> 28:57.001 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% it was... 28:57.001 --> 28:57.936 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% To so many black people, 28:57.936 --> 28:59.270 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% it was an articulation. 28:59.270 --> 29:04.008 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It was an attempt to recognize that 29:04.008 --> 29:06.177 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% something's not right here, 29:06.177 --> 29:08.546 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in terms of what I'm being taught. 29:08.546 --> 29:10.248 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% There has to be a counter 29:10.248 --> 29:11.750 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to what I'm being taught 29:11.750 --> 29:15.286 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because what I know in front of me is not what I feel. 29:15.286 --> 29:18.456 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I remember when I was in high school, 29:18.456 --> 29:20.725 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% my mother gave me a copy... 29:20.725 --> 29:21.659 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I didn't even know she had it. 29:21.659 --> 29:23.495 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% She has a first edition copy 29:23.495 --> 29:24.863 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of "The Autobiography of Malcolm X." 29:24.863 --> 29:26.097 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I was like, "Where did this come from?" 29:26.097 --> 29:27.465 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It was like in the living room 29:27.465 --> 29:29.134 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and she gave it to me. 29:29.134 --> 29:31.669 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And when you open it up, she... 29:31.669 --> 29:33.171 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% My mother as a 17 year old; 29:33.171 --> 29:36.007 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% all of these sentences are underlined, 29:36.007 --> 29:37.542 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% underlined, underlined, 29:37.542 --> 29:40.845 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and that's what I think about when you think about Muhammad. 29:40.845 --> 29:42.046 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% There's the articulation. 29:42.046 --> 29:44.282 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "I get you," right? 29:44.282 --> 29:45.850 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "I understand you, I feel you. 29:45.850 --> 29:47.752 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "This is exactly what I see." 29:47.752 --> 29:50.021 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I think that when you think about... 29:50.021 --> 29:51.956 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You look at the clip with Cleveland Williams; 29:51.956 --> 29:53.725 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% here's a guy whose hair is comped 29:53.725 --> 29:56.294 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and he's talking about respect. 29:56.294 --> 30:00.532 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so, what the Nation did 30:00.532 --> 30:05.537 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for so many black people was to give us an outlet 30:06.905 --> 30:10.241 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to say what you're feeling is not preposterous, 30:10.241 --> 30:12.644 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and what you're feeling is real, 30:12.644 --> 30:15.713 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and we're going to try to give you 30:15.713 --> 30:20.718 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% some form of roadmap to what we think your true self is, 30:21.886 --> 30:23.087 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to what you know your true self is. 30:23.087 --> 30:24.756 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Because even if it's not this, 30:24.756 --> 30:26.591 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you know it's not what you're actually living 30:26.591 --> 30:27.692 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in the United States. 30:29.227 --> 30:31.229 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - I think Howard's right. 30:31.229 --> 30:33.965 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The courage part of it is so interesting, 30:33.965 --> 30:35.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that you said earlier. 30:35.700 --> 30:38.670 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And while the Nation of Islam was a kind of 30:38.670 --> 30:41.306 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% classically American hybrid of stuff 30:41.306 --> 30:44.509 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and had lots of corruption at its core, 30:44.509 --> 30:47.545 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it did offer an alternative narrative 30:47.545 --> 30:50.315 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% against the old slave narrative, 30:50.315 --> 30:51.549 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% one of the ones, 30:51.549 --> 30:55.987 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it was liberating for this young man 30:55.987 --> 30:58.189 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and he was able to transform it. 30:58.189 --> 31:00.825 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And where Malcolm X, who was excluded from it, 31:00.825 --> 31:03.928 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% was headed both politically and then spiritually is 31:03.928 --> 31:06.998 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% where Muhammad Ali also got to. 31:06.998 --> 31:09.534 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And Rasheda says this in the film, 31:09.534 --> 31:12.470 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the fighting is just one aspect. 31:12.470 --> 31:14.873 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He just happened to be doing that. 31:14.873 --> 31:17.141 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He happens to be greatest athlete. 31:17.141 --> 31:20.812 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But it's amazing that this is about, 31:20.812 --> 31:22.947 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as he says over and over again, freedom, 31:22.947 --> 31:25.850 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the way he found the path to freedom was 31:25.850 --> 31:28.353 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% by accepting this new narrative, 31:28.353 --> 31:30.855 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% this new story of oneself 31:30.855 --> 31:32.657 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and one's possibilities 31:32.657 --> 31:34.459 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that the Nation of Islam offered. 31:35.393 --> 31:36.661 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 31:36.661 --> 31:38.229 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Rasheda, what are your perspectives 31:38.229 --> 31:39.731 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% on the Nation of Islam, 31:39.731 --> 31:43.067 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% both as a presence in your father's life 31:43.067 --> 31:47.538 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and the criticisms that have been leveled against it 31:49.407 --> 31:50.675 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in the film and elsewhere? 31:52.410 --> 31:55.747 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - The Nation of Islam is not true Islam. 31:55.747 --> 31:58.950 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Of course, my dad realized that later, 31:58.950 --> 32:01.119 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% when he adopted orthodox Islam. 32:01.119 --> 32:02.287 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% But at the time, 32:03.721 --> 32:08.626 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it was important because it really allowed my dad to face 32:14.832 --> 32:17.969 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% all of the issues that was going on in his life. 32:17.969 --> 32:19.103 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Remember, he grew up in Louisville, 32:19.103 --> 32:20.405 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% so that's the Jim Crow south. 32:20.405 --> 32:23.174 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So segregation was worse in the South 32:23.174 --> 32:24.909 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% than anywhere else. 32:25.910 --> 32:28.780 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He felt, in a sense, 32:28.780 --> 32:32.750 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% like what he did for the United States, 32:32.750 --> 32:35.053 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% winning a gold medal, didn't mean anything. 32:35.053 --> 32:38.990 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So the Nation was very important for him at that time 32:38.990 --> 32:41.626 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because it allowed him to face 32:41.626 --> 32:44.862 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what was going on in his own hometown, 32:44.862 --> 32:47.565 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as well as the rest of the world, head on. 32:47.565 --> 32:49.901 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So the Nation was important, 32:49.901 --> 32:52.003 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% even though it isn't true Islam. 32:52.003 --> 32:53.738 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% The ideals was important 32:53.738 --> 32:56.240 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because it really made daddy understand 32:56.240 --> 32:58.509 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the importance of being... 32:58.509 --> 33:00.378 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And Malcolm mentioned that too, 33:00.378 --> 33:04.215 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is that if you can brainwash someone 33:04.215 --> 33:05.450 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to hate themselves, 33:05.450 --> 33:07.251 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that's the worst crime you can do. 33:07.251 --> 33:09.153 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that's what my dad was really trying 33:09.153 --> 33:11.322 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to allow people to realize, 33:11.322 --> 33:16.327 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is that as he got more and more recognition and fame, 33:17.495 --> 33:21.032 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he used that to help his people get out 33:21.032 --> 33:22.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of the situation that they were in. 33:22.900 --> 33:25.036 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so, he did that by saying, 33:25.036 --> 33:26.537 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "I'm beautiful, I'm great. 33:26.537 --> 33:27.905 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% "I'm so pretty." 33:27.905 --> 33:30.141 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That's something that African-Americans... 33:30.141 --> 33:31.976 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It seems like a small thing to do, 33:31.976 --> 33:34.579 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but for an African-American to say 33:34.579 --> 33:37.348 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on national TV, "I'm so pretty, I'm great," 33:37.348 --> 33:39.650 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that was unheard of back then. 33:39.650 --> 33:42.153 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so, he even got a lot of backlash 33:42.153 --> 33:46.057 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% from African-Americans who were also athletes 33:46.057 --> 33:47.859 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and were saying, "just be quiet." 33:47.859 --> 33:50.028 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So my dad was really, in a sense, 33:50.028 --> 33:55.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% telling our people "Wake up. 33:55.800 --> 33:57.535 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "We can be beautiful. 33:57.535 --> 33:58.603 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% "We can be proud 33:58.603 --> 34:00.872 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "and we can get what we want." 34:00.872 --> 34:05.209 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So that was the importance of my dad and the Nation. 34:05.209 --> 34:07.445 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, so much of this is liberation. 34:07.445 --> 34:10.548 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% When you think about the broad definition of that word, 34:10.548 --> 34:12.050 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% it's liberation. 34:12.050 --> 34:14.919 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% When you're black, you're taught that you're ugly. 34:14.919 --> 34:15.887 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% When you think about it, 34:15.887 --> 34:17.622 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% when you grow up, 34:17.622 --> 34:18.890 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and we all know it, right? 34:18.890 --> 34:21.225 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Growing up, even growing up around the way, 34:21.225 --> 34:24.162 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when black people make fun of each other, 34:24.162 --> 34:28.132 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% our humor is based in making fun of how you look. 34:28.132 --> 34:30.401 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Always making fun of how you look. 34:30.401 --> 34:32.103 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And he was one of the people... 34:32.103 --> 34:33.638 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Where do you think "black is beautiful" comes from? 34:33.638 --> 34:35.273 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It was the counter to this, to say, 34:35.273 --> 34:37.308 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Look, there's another way here." 34:37.308 --> 34:39.077 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And our humor is rooted in it. 34:39.077 --> 34:40.745 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% When you look around, 34:40.745 --> 34:43.448 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% you walk into a store 34:43.448 --> 34:44.749 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and you look at all the magazines, 34:44.749 --> 34:45.716 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% who's on the cover? 34:45.716 --> 34:46.918 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% You're not on the cover. 34:46.918 --> 34:49.620 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% These standards of beauty, they're not you. 34:49.620 --> 34:51.622 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Everything about it is not you, right? 34:51.622 --> 34:54.659 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You're taught completely to dislike yourself. 34:54.659 --> 34:58.729 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so, as much as the Nation liberated 34:58.729 --> 35:00.698 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% a lot of black people 35:00.698 --> 35:03.034 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in terms of trying to find a pathway 35:03.034 --> 35:04.902 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that eventually, in Kareem's case, 35:04.902 --> 35:06.404 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in Malcolm's case, in Muhammad's case, 35:06.404 --> 35:08.106 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% got them to Orthodox Islam, 35:08.106 --> 35:11.442 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it also gave you a pathway to pull yourself 35:11.442 --> 35:13.544 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% out of this idea that 35:13.544 --> 35:15.746 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "I'm not worthy in the white world," 35:15.746 --> 35:18.950 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that it gave you something to look at 35:18.950 --> 35:20.585 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that you could be proud of. 35:20.585 --> 35:21.719 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that's one of the things that 35:21.719 --> 35:23.121 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% when we looked at Muhammad, 35:23.121 --> 35:24.822 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that was the thing that he gave everybody. 35:24.822 --> 35:27.024 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He made you feel like 35:28.259 --> 35:29.827 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you are as beautiful as he was. 35:31.129 --> 35:33.164 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Unless your name was Joe Louis. 35:33.164 --> 35:34.165 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Unless-- - and Joe Frazier. 35:34.165 --> 35:35.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I was gonna say-- 35:35.600 --> 35:37.835 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% (speaking over each other) 35:37.835 --> 35:39.103 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - What's really ironic about that is 35:39.103 --> 35:42.273 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that all the things that Muhammad gave us, 35:42.273 --> 35:44.142 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he used against Joe Frazier. 35:44.142 --> 35:46.911 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% And the cruelty, 35:46.911 --> 35:49.213 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He knew what he was doing with Frazier. 35:49.213 --> 35:51.549 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, we all knew it and you watch this. 35:51.549 --> 35:53.851 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And over time, as you get older, 35:53.851 --> 35:55.419 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% especially the first fight, 35:55.419 --> 35:58.756 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it was essentially two black men pitted 35:58.756 --> 36:00.158 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% against each other, 36:00.158 --> 36:02.126 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but one was supposedly representing "White America," 36:02.126 --> 36:03.060 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and that was Frazier, 36:03.060 --> 36:04.262 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and he's from North Philly. 36:04.262 --> 36:07.999 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So the psychological battle between those two 36:07.999 --> 36:09.433 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and the cruelty, 36:09.433 --> 36:12.203 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I hate to say it because Muhammad was everything to me, 36:12.203 --> 36:15.973 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but the psychological cruelty 36:15.973 --> 36:17.508 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% on someone that he knew was not 36:17.508 --> 36:21.412 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% at his intellectual level as well sold a lot of tickets, 36:21.412 --> 36:23.447 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% but caused a lot of pain as well. 36:23.447 --> 36:24.482 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Those fights were real. 36:24.482 --> 36:25.716 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And when you watch those fights, 36:25.716 --> 36:26.984 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and which is why I can keep talking 36:26.984 --> 36:28.019 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% about this forever, Ken, 36:28.019 --> 36:29.253 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% you watch those fights, 36:29.253 --> 36:33.157 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you can feel black America right there. 36:33.157 --> 36:34.091 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% You feel all of it. 36:34.091 --> 36:36.561 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I mean, right in your face, 36:36.561 --> 36:38.262 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% it's just so powerful. 36:38.262 --> 36:41.432 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I watch Ali fights just for fun, 10, 20 times a year. 36:41.432 --> 36:42.667 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Let's just go... 36:42.667 --> 36:45.369 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Even the second fight, I'll watch that one too. 36:45.369 --> 36:48.372 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, and he also used that tactic, 36:48.372 --> 36:53.377 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% these inter-black conflicts against George Foreman 36:54.579 --> 36:57.348 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and set himself up as the black man. 36:57.348 --> 36:58.916 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He always set himself up as the black man 36:58.916 --> 37:00.885 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and would diminish these others, 37:00.885 --> 37:02.486 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% his opponents' blackness, 37:02.486 --> 37:07.491 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% or exaggerate their blackness in order to disrespect them 37:08.226 --> 37:09.193 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and things like that, 37:09.193 --> 37:10.127 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and it was... 37:10.127 --> 37:11.696 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And at the end of the film, 37:11.696 --> 37:12.730 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he says that he regretted it. 37:12.730 --> 37:15.132 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so, he knew he was wrong. 37:15.132 --> 37:18.636 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Ken, do you think that this is... 37:18.636 --> 37:21.305 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And you're very faithful to telling the story 37:21.305 --> 37:24.842 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and not putting your finger on the scale, 37:24.842 --> 37:25.743 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% your thumb on the scale, 37:25.743 --> 37:27.211 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% one way or another. 37:27.211 --> 37:31.916 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But one thing that really struck me was how young he was 37:32.783 --> 37:34.151 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% when he developed his identity, 37:34.151 --> 37:37.021 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and young men are headstrong and brash, 37:37.021 --> 37:39.924 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and plunge forward without considering 37:39.924 --> 37:42.693 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the full ramifications of their actions. 37:42.693 --> 37:46.998 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Do you think that these cruelties 37:46.998 --> 37:50.935 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that he perpetrated on his opponents were strategic, 37:50.935 --> 37:53.504 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% come from avarice, 37:53.504 --> 37:56.641 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% trying to make more money, fame, attention, 37:56.641 --> 37:57.742 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% some of the above? 37:57.742 --> 37:59.777 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% How would you analyze that? 37:59.777 --> 38:01.012 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - It's a good question. 38:01.012 --> 38:03.047 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It was important for us to show everything. 38:03.047 --> 38:05.283 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think we live in an unfortunate culture 38:05.283 --> 38:07.752 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% where everything is on or off, good or bad, 38:07.752 --> 38:09.987 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and no life is like that. 38:09.987 --> 38:14.191 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And our notions of heroism are so limited. 38:14.191 --> 38:16.093 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We think a hero is perfect 38:16.093 --> 38:18.329 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and lament that we're in an age where no heroes, 38:18.329 --> 38:23.334 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but in fact, heroism is about the negotiation, 38:23.334 --> 38:25.770 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% even the war, between a person's strengths 38:25.770 --> 38:26.704 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and their weaknesses. 38:26.704 --> 38:28.806 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% This was not a good side. 38:28.806 --> 38:30.374 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Todd Boyd says in the film, 38:30.374 --> 38:33.144 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "He's using his his power there for evil 38:33.144 --> 38:34.345 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "and not for good." 38:34.345 --> 38:37.315 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But most of the time, it's for good, 38:37.315 --> 38:38.316 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and it's complicated. 38:38.316 --> 38:39.684 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% It is strategic 38:39.684 --> 38:41.819 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and yet, I think he doesn't know. 38:41.819 --> 38:44.055 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But let's, remember when you bring up the young man 38:44.055 --> 38:47.758 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this is a person who, very early in life, 38:47.758 --> 38:50.761 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% understood that he had some mission, 38:50.761 --> 38:52.563 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% he had some purpose. 38:52.563 --> 38:54.465 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You don't start boxing for a few months 38:54.465 --> 38:56.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and call yourself "The Greatest" 38:56.000 --> 39:00.271 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when no one even thinks that you are that, 39:00.271 --> 39:01.906 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and then make yourself that, 39:01.906 --> 39:04.542 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and keep yourself that over time, 39:04.542 --> 39:06.944 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and bring a larger message of love. 39:06.944 --> 39:09.880 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So, to me, this is a classic hero's journey. 39:09.880 --> 39:11.549 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% This is a... 39:11.549 --> 39:13.451 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There are lots of dragons to slay 39:13.451 --> 39:14.552 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and as we know, 39:14.552 --> 39:17.121 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% we're our own worst enemies. 39:17.121 --> 39:19.690 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He was his own worst enemy in lots of ways, 39:19.690 --> 39:21.859 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as we are, all four of us, 39:21.859 --> 39:23.127 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% our own worst enemies, 39:23.127 --> 39:25.963 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I think that was an important part to share. 39:25.963 --> 39:29.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I was so happy that this beautiful woman here 39:29.700 --> 39:32.837 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who carries the spirit of her father understood 39:32.837 --> 39:34.905 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that you couldn't tell it 39:34.905 --> 39:38.943 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% with just only the icing on it. 39:38.943 --> 39:42.113 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It had to have complexity and depth, as he did 39:42.113 --> 39:44.682 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because you can't then emerge from it 39:44.682 --> 39:46.817 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% without appreciating what he went through. 39:46.817 --> 39:48.219 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% The kind of sacrifices, 39:48.219 --> 39:50.054 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the risks, as Howard said, 39:50.054 --> 39:51.655 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that he took, they're unbelievable. 39:51.655 --> 39:54.959 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And when something turned out good for him, 39:54.959 --> 39:56.694 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% legally, for example, 39:56.694 --> 39:59.663 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% people say, "Well, is this restore your faith?" 39:59.663 --> 40:00.931 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And he just turns around, 40:00.931 --> 40:02.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as if he was talking today, 40:02.366 --> 40:04.468 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and he said, "Somebody's going to get killed by a cop, 40:04.468 --> 40:06.137 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "someone's going to get beat up by a cop. 40:06.137 --> 40:07.071 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% "This is it. 40:07.071 --> 40:08.606 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "This was a good decision for me 40:08.606 --> 40:10.841 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "but it doesn't end it." 40:10.841 --> 40:12.510 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so, there was always a purpose. 40:12.510 --> 40:14.912 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He loses to Frazier after belittling him 40:14.912 --> 40:16.781 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and saying he's going to win 40:16.781 --> 40:18.015 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% with all the confidence, 40:18.015 --> 40:19.884 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% drove white America crazy. 40:19.884 --> 40:22.253 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% A lot of people were for Frazier 40:22.253 --> 40:23.821 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% just to shut him up, 40:23.821 --> 40:25.456 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and Frazier, in a way, did, 40:25.456 --> 40:28.893 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and his post-fight response 40:28.893 --> 40:31.462 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about his responsibility to people 40:31.462 --> 40:34.999 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to show that life will bring this... 40:34.999 --> 40:36.434 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You'll lose someone you love, 40:36.434 --> 40:37.401 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% you'll lose a job, 40:37.401 --> 40:38.636 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% you'll lose a title, 40:38.636 --> 40:39.804 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and you need to get back up, 40:39.804 --> 40:41.605 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% it can't defeat you. 40:41.605 --> 40:43.474 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% You cannot understand. 40:43.474 --> 40:44.809 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's the parallel of 40:44.809 --> 40:47.344 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what Howard was saying about "beautiful." 40:47.344 --> 40:50.948 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The parallel to that was a kind of empowering spirit, 40:50.948 --> 40:53.517 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that this world will throw you 40:53.517 --> 40:56.086 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% a lot of difficult things 40:56.086 --> 40:57.621 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and I will show you, 40:57.621 --> 40:59.123 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you can get through this. 40:59.123 --> 41:01.892 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So he is as magnificent in defeat 41:01.892 --> 41:04.528 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% as he is in victory. 41:04.528 --> 41:07.965 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And we saw the clip where it's Baryshnikov. 41:07.965 --> 41:10.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% it's Miles Davis, it's Picasso. 41:10.000 --> 41:12.703 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And that fight with Cleveland Williams is in it... 41:12.703 --> 41:14.171 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Jesse, just to set you right, 41:14.171 --> 41:16.507 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that is not the fight, which is "what's my name? 41:16.507 --> 41:18.742 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's another fight that's coming up 41:18.742 --> 41:19.977 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in that that episode, 41:19.977 --> 41:22.646 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in which he has been consciously belittled. 41:22.646 --> 41:24.582 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think the important thing 41:24.582 --> 41:26.750 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams is 41:26.750 --> 41:28.352 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that he's shot by the police. 41:28.352 --> 41:30.120 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% This stuff has been going on 41:30.120 --> 41:31.856 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% well before Rodney King, 41:31.856 --> 41:33.657 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% well before Muhammad Ali, 41:33.657 --> 41:35.426 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% well before Emmett till, 41:35.426 --> 41:37.528 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% well before Jack Johnson, 41:37.528 --> 41:38.929 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% well before anything. 41:38.929 --> 41:41.765 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It's a 402-year old disease, 41:41.765 --> 41:45.035 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it's a virus that's infected our story, 41:45.035 --> 41:49.340 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and Muhammad Ali intersects with that in powerful ways. 41:49.340 --> 41:50.808 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, I wanted to throw one quick thing 41:50.808 --> 41:52.042 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% out there to that too, Ken, 41:52.042 --> 41:53.344 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when we talk about the liberation of this 41:53.344 --> 41:55.145 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and what Muhammad was saying; 41:55.145 --> 41:58.082 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's also, he was liberating athletes 41:58.082 --> 41:59.550 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because to Jesse's point, 41:59.550 --> 42:02.653 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% ballplayers were supposed to be grateful. 42:02.653 --> 42:05.256 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Ballplayers, the first thing about a ballplayer, 42:05.256 --> 42:08.325 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you call the owner of the team "Mister." 42:08.325 --> 42:10.227 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% They still do it today. 42:10.227 --> 42:13.230 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You win a game and you say, "Thank you," 42:13.230 --> 42:15.032 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and you're deferential to the reporters, 42:15.032 --> 42:16.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you're deferential to the fans, 42:16.133 --> 42:17.735 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you're deferential to everybody. 42:17.735 --> 42:20.170 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And he was the first guy out there 42:20.170 --> 42:25.175 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who really took control of his own narrative 42:26.343 --> 42:29.313 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and understood that "no, no, no, I'm the show. 42:29.313 --> 42:31.081 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "You're coming here to see me. 42:31.081 --> 42:34.552 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "And what that does is that gives me power." 42:34.552 --> 42:36.353 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And Henry Aaron was very similar to that, 42:36.353 --> 42:37.588 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% where he realized that, 42:37.588 --> 42:41.892 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "If I'm here, you have to listen to me." 42:41.892 --> 42:46.897 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And the number of black athletes at that time 42:48.232 --> 42:51.268 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who were frightened because of what he was doing 42:51.268 --> 42:52.903 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in terms of that liberation... 42:52.903 --> 42:54.371 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There was another generation who said, 42:54.371 --> 42:56.073 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Yeah, I want to be just like him." 42:58.475 --> 43:01.512 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Rasheda, what were the most emotional moments 43:01.512 --> 43:04.548 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of this film for you? 43:04.548 --> 43:06.450 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Well, I cried throughout. 43:07.351 --> 43:09.687 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% There was some.... 43:09.687 --> 43:10.621 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Well, most... 43:10.621 --> 43:11.822 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% There were just tears of joy 43:11.822 --> 43:13.624 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because it was great to see my dad. 43:15.292 --> 43:18.596 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And then, the times where he was... 43:18.596 --> 43:21.899 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% There was a part in the clip where he was kissing me, 43:21.899 --> 43:22.733 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% or my twin... 43:22.733 --> 43:23.567 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I have a twin. 43:23.567 --> 43:25.002 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% So I look and I'm like, 43:25.002 --> 43:27.705 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "I'm not sure if that's me or Jameela. 43:27.705 --> 43:29.173 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% "I'm not sure." 43:29.173 --> 43:32.509 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But he was kissing him one of us, me or my twin, 43:32.509 --> 43:34.778 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and he was like, "Don't you know your father's... 43:34.778 --> 43:36.413 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Do you know your daddy's the greatest? 43:36.413 --> 43:38.949 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Do you know your daddy's the greatest?" 43:38.949 --> 43:40.751 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% My whole face, I just... 43:41.752 --> 43:43.354 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I never saw that clip before. 43:43.354 --> 43:45.189 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And for daddy to be like, 43:45.189 --> 43:47.124 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Did you know your father's the greatest? 43:47.124 --> 43:48.726 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "He's the greatest all the time." 43:48.726 --> 43:50.561 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I just started crying. - It's a home movie for you. 43:50.561 --> 43:51.795 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - It was like a home movie. 43:51.795 --> 43:53.163 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% It was like... 43:53.163 --> 43:54.632 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% 'Cause I've never seen that before 43:54.632 --> 43:56.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I was like, "Oh my God, I've never seen that. 43:56.066 --> 43:57.368 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% "That's me!" 43:57.368 --> 44:02.006 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it was a time where I didn't really remember 44:02.006 --> 44:03.607 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% because most of my time 44:03.607 --> 44:05.409 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I remember my dad were Parkinson's. 44:05.409 --> 44:08.946 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Because we grew up with the divorce and everything, 44:08.946 --> 44:12.049 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we didn't grow up with seeing my dad every day. 44:12.049 --> 44:15.152 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So to see him interacting with us 44:15.152 --> 44:18.088 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and with the wagons in Deer Lake, Pennsylvania, 44:18.088 --> 44:20.424 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I just got some really great memories 44:20.424 --> 44:22.926 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that just started to rush through my head 44:22.926 --> 44:26.330 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because they were good times for us, as kids, 44:26.330 --> 44:28.532 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because we were with our parents. 44:28.532 --> 44:31.268 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And we were on this great training camp, 44:31.268 --> 44:32.836 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and we watched our dad train, 44:32.836 --> 44:34.905 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it was just a fun time for us. 44:34.905 --> 44:36.774 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But for us, he wasn't famous, 44:36.774 --> 44:38.208 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% he was just our dad 44:38.208 --> 44:41.845 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who just took us on pony rides 44:41.845 --> 44:42.946 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and was just being a dad. 44:42.946 --> 44:44.982 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - This is what we wanted to do. 44:44.982 --> 44:48.118 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The whole film starts with a very long sequence 44:48.118 --> 44:51.822 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about stealing a bite of cornflakes. 44:51.822 --> 44:53.691 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There's not a parent in the world 44:53.691 --> 44:56.126 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that doesn't know what that kidding is 44:56.126 --> 44:57.161 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% with a toddler, 44:57.161 --> 44:59.029 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and it was our way of saying, 44:59.029 --> 45:01.331 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Okay, okay, we'll get to the boxing. 45:01.331 --> 45:03.067 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% "Okay, we'll get to the conflict. 45:03.067 --> 45:04.601 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "We'll get to this. 45:04.601 --> 45:08.272 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "But this is a person who loves other human beings, 45:08.272 --> 45:11.775 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "and he particularly loves his family, 45:11.775 --> 45:14.278 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "and he particularly loves his girls." 45:14.278 --> 45:17.748 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it was important to move that 45:17.748 --> 45:20.084 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% from its placement way up in episode three 45:20.084 --> 45:22.753 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and move it back to the very beginning of the film, 45:22.753 --> 45:23.954 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and say... 45:23.954 --> 45:25.522 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Let's just start with something like, 45:25.522 --> 45:28.559 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "Look over there, I'm going to steal your corn flakes." 45:29.860 --> 45:33.130 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Good call there, Ken. - Great call. 45:33.130 --> 45:34.765 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It was really beautiful opening. 45:34.765 --> 45:36.834 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I just immediately started crying as soon 45:36.834 --> 45:40.838 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as I saw Miriam and my dad just playing around. 45:40.838 --> 45:42.840 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I never saw that either. 45:42.840 --> 45:45.242 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Again, we're seeing footage I've never seen 45:45.242 --> 45:46.910 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and it's really taken me back. 45:46.910 --> 45:48.312 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's good memories. 45:48.312 --> 45:50.748 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Our fourth producer, Stephanie Jenkins, 45:50.748 --> 45:53.183 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the team of people who look for stuff; 45:53.183 --> 45:56.587 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the reason why these films take four, five, six, seven years 45:56.587 --> 45:58.322 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to make is because we want to do 45:58.322 --> 46:00.624 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the deepest possible dive, possible 46:00.624 --> 46:03.327 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and make sure that it's not an additive process, 46:03.327 --> 46:04.261 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but it's subtractive. 46:04.261 --> 46:06.563 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We collect hundreds of hours 46:06.563 --> 46:09.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and then say, "Okay, we love that, 46:09.333 --> 46:10.934 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "but it just doesn't fit." 46:10.934 --> 46:13.137 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And the clip we're going to show right now, Jesse, 46:13.137 --> 46:14.338 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% if I can segue into that 46:14.338 --> 46:16.039 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% so we don't run out of any time, 46:16.039 --> 46:20.644 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is not too much after the other clip 46:20.644 --> 46:23.647 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but he's refused induction, 46:23.647 --> 46:27.050 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he's delayed some stuff by changing his draft board 46:27.050 --> 46:29.219 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% from Kentucky to Texas, 46:30.821 --> 46:32.289 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% but he's... 46:32.289 --> 46:33.490 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% When he's finally inducted, 46:33.490 --> 46:35.192 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% he refuses induction 46:35.192 --> 46:37.127 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and he is put on trial. 46:37.127 --> 46:40.297 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so, this clip is really self-explanatory 46:40.297 --> 46:42.132 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and we've sort of hinted at it before, 46:42.132 --> 46:44.034 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but it may be a good way 46:44.034 --> 46:45.969 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to finally get at the man. 46:45.969 --> 46:49.173 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% This human being, Muhammad Ali. 46:49.173 --> 46:51.809 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So could you roll the last clip? 46:52.910 --> 46:54.311 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - [Narrator] Two weeks later, 46:54.311 --> 46:56.947 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% an all-white Houston jury found Ali guilty 46:56.947 --> 46:58.448 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of refusing the draft. 46:59.850 --> 47:02.219 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The judge, ignoring the more lenient recommendation 47:02.219 --> 47:03.754 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of the prosecutor, 47:03.754 --> 47:06.223 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% sentenced him to the maximum; 47:06.223 --> 47:09.760 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% five years in prison and a $10,000 fine. 47:10.894 --> 47:13.063 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And he would have to surrender his passport. 47:14.364 --> 47:18.235 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Ali's lawyers immediately filed an appeal, 47:18.235 --> 47:20.103 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% prepared to go all the way to 47:20.103 --> 47:22.339 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the Supreme Court, if necessary. 47:22.339 --> 47:24.408 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% A process that could take years. 47:25.542 --> 47:28.846 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Ali remained free, but without his title 47:28.846 --> 47:30.581 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% or a license to box. 47:32.015 --> 47:34.084 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He fully expected that he would 47:34.084 --> 47:37.321 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% one day go to jail for his beliefs. 47:37.321 --> 47:39.723 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - We, who are followers of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad 47:39.723 --> 47:40.991 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in the religion of Islam, 47:40.991 --> 47:43.527 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we believe in obeying the laws of the land. 47:43.527 --> 47:46.129 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We are taught to obey the laws of the land 47:46.129 --> 47:48.298 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as long as it don't conflict 47:48.298 --> 47:50.234 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% with our religious beliefs. 47:50.234 --> 47:52.169 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Reporter] Will you go into service as such? 47:52.169 --> 47:54.638 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - This would be a 1,000% against the teachings 47:54.638 --> 47:56.506 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, 47:56.506 --> 47:57.975 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the religion of Islam, 47:57.975 --> 48:00.210 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and the Holy Quran, the holy book that we believe in. 48:00.210 --> 48:01.979 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% This would be all be denouncing 48:01.979 --> 48:04.414 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and defying everything that I stand for. 48:04.414 --> 48:06.149 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Reporter] This would mean, of course, 48:06.149 --> 48:08.418 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that you stand the chance of going to jail 48:08.418 --> 48:10.487 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as a result of not going into service. 48:10.487 --> 48:12.689 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Well, whatever the punishment, 48:12.689 --> 48:14.258 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% whatever the persecution is 48:14.258 --> 48:16.760 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for standing up of my religious beliefs, 48:16.760 --> 48:19.796 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% even if it means facing machine gun fire that day, 48:19.796 --> 48:23.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I will face it before denouncing Elijah Muhammad 48:23.166 --> 48:24.501 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and the religion of Islam. 48:24.501 --> 48:25.535 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I'm ready to die. 48:28.038 --> 48:30.374 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - When I think about him saying, 48:30.374 --> 48:34.077 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% "If they want to put maybe for a firing squad tomorrow, 48:34.077 --> 48:36.880 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% "I'm ready to die before I abandon my religion." 48:41.852 --> 48:42.819 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% That's it. 48:45.422 --> 48:47.257 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You can't teach that kind of thing 48:47.257 --> 48:48.759 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in lectures and books. 48:48.759 --> 48:51.561 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That kind of thing has to be modeled. 48:51.561 --> 48:53.931 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And models turn into traditions, 48:53.931 --> 48:55.999 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and traditions provide people 48:55.999 --> 48:59.836 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% with the mechanical memory to do the right thing. 48:59.836 --> 49:04.074 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That's what Muhammad Ali represented in that moment. 49:04.074 --> 49:08.111 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, anybody now faced with a major decision 49:08.111 --> 49:09.880 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in which the right way is clear 49:09.880 --> 49:11.348 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and the wrong way is clear, 49:11.348 --> 49:13.250 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but the consequences are dire, 49:13.250 --> 49:16.553 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% now they have a model that they can fall back on, 49:16.553 --> 49:19.056 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% psychologically, emotionally, spiritually; 49:19.056 --> 49:21.892 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That's what Muhammad Ali represented in that moment 49:21.892 --> 49:23.527 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and that, to me, 49:23.527 --> 49:25.429 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% that moment will live on forever. 49:35.105 --> 49:35.939 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Wow. 49:37.641 --> 49:39.343 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I love that part of the film. 49:39.343 --> 49:41.745 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Howard, you've written so evocatively 49:41.745 --> 49:43.480 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% about the heritage, 49:43.480 --> 49:45.415 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is the title of one of your books, 49:45.415 --> 49:49.152 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of black athletes and activism. 49:49.152 --> 49:51.788 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Can you explain today's athletes, 49:51.788 --> 49:53.657 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% whether they know it or not, 49:53.657 --> 49:55.525 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% what are some of the examples 49:55.525 --> 49:57.227 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of how they're following that model 49:57.227 --> 49:59.129 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% that Ali set? 49:59.129 --> 50:01.698 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, they are part of a lineage 50:01.698 --> 50:03.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and I think that people... 50:03.200 --> 50:04.901 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I think we hear it. 50:04.901 --> 50:05.869 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I don't think we know it 50:05.869 --> 50:07.204 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because you don't really know it 50:07.204 --> 50:08.672 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% until you're faced with it. 50:08.672 --> 50:09.940 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think that one of the mistakes 50:09.940 --> 50:12.642 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that I see, that I don't love, today is this idea 50:12.642 --> 50:15.012 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that you are in the heritage of Muhammad Ali 50:15.012 --> 50:17.481 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% by owning a team, 50:17.481 --> 50:19.082 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% or by making money, 50:19.082 --> 50:21.318 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or being part of an empire. 50:21.318 --> 50:23.687 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's exactly the opposite of that. 50:23.687 --> 50:25.188 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He's exactly the opposite 50:25.188 --> 50:27.457 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of all of these things that we have. 50:27.457 --> 50:32.462 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We have conflated athlete activism with commerce. 50:33.063 --> 50:34.464 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% And so, to me, 50:34.464 --> 50:36.967 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% what I find in... 50:36.967 --> 50:40.203 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% What I find appealing to what's happening today is 50:40.203 --> 50:43.407 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the citizenship element of the athletes. 50:43.407 --> 50:46.043 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% When you see athletes doing things 50:46.043 --> 50:50.247 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that allow them to speak for other people, 50:50.247 --> 50:52.549 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I find that to be compelling. 50:52.549 --> 50:55.285 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I always remind myself when we go through this, 50:55.285 --> 50:56.653 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% whether we're talking about Colin Kaepernick 50:56.653 --> 50:58.655 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or we're talking about LeBron James 50:58.655 --> 51:00.223 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% or whomever else, 51:00.223 --> 51:03.493 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the level of risk is never going to be the same 51:03.493 --> 51:04.995 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and it shouldn't be. 51:04.995 --> 51:08.932 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that I feel like we compare people 51:08.932 --> 51:10.634 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to Muhammad way too easily 51:10.634 --> 51:13.203 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because it's incongruous to us 51:13.203 --> 51:18.208 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to think about having a government come after you. 51:19.076 --> 51:20.243 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think very few people have 51:20.243 --> 51:22.612 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% any idea of what that means. 51:22.612 --> 51:24.181 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And when I say the government coming after you, 51:24.181 --> 51:26.049 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I'm talking about the citizens, 51:26.049 --> 51:28.685 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% not just the prison, being threatened with prison, 51:28.685 --> 51:29.920 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but I'm thinking the number 51:29.920 --> 51:32.522 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of conversations that people were having 51:32.522 --> 51:34.658 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that were in absolute support 51:34.658 --> 51:36.560 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of this man going to prison or worse. 51:37.594 --> 51:41.231 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so, I'm very, very wary 51:41.231 --> 51:43.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of ever comparing anybody to Muhammad. 51:43.800 --> 51:45.702 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And the judge is given the chance, 51:45.702 --> 51:49.306 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the prosecutor's had asked for a much more lenient sentence, 51:49.306 --> 51:51.408 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he sentenced him to the maximum. 51:51.408 --> 51:52.809 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We cut to a newspaper, 51:52.809 --> 51:55.011 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% years after he's changed his name, 51:55.011 --> 51:56.847 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% they're still calling him Clay. 51:56.847 --> 52:01.384 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We don't know what he was up against. 52:01.384 --> 52:03.053 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, that's one of the reasons 52:03.053 --> 52:04.754 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% why we wanted to make the film, 52:04.754 --> 52:05.989 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is to describe that thing 52:05.989 --> 52:08.258 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I think, as I said before, Howard, 52:08.258 --> 52:10.227 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think you really hit the nail on the head, 52:10.227 --> 52:14.898 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that this risk is a huge, huge part 52:14.898 --> 52:16.166 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% of the story, 52:16.166 --> 52:18.502 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that sometimes we just don't put it together. 52:18.502 --> 52:21.505 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's sitting there right in front of us. 52:21.505 --> 52:23.673 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This is a person who said he would risk 52:23.673 --> 52:25.609 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% a firing squad. 52:25.609 --> 52:28.278 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I mean, that's something. 52:28.278 --> 52:31.047 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - And it sounds hyperbolic 52:31.047 --> 52:34.417 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but one of the things that I always remind people is 52:34.417 --> 52:36.419 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% if you really want to compare 52:37.420 --> 52:38.688 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% anybody to Muhammad, 52:38.688 --> 52:40.190 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in terms of some of these risks, 52:40.190 --> 52:42.893 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it has to be someone like Tommy Smith or John Carlos; 52:42.893 --> 52:45.061 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% they lost their careers. 52:45.061 --> 52:46.396 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And even someone like... 52:46.396 --> 52:48.165 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And this is why I don't like the comparison game 52:48.165 --> 52:49.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because it makes it seem like you're criticizing someone. 52:49.866 --> 52:52.169 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You're not, you're putting it into the proper context. 52:52.169 --> 52:54.204 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Is that at no point 52:54.204 --> 52:56.506 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in his career has LeBron James 52:56.506 --> 52:58.942 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% ever been threatened with his live... 52:58.942 --> 53:00.844 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And his livelihood has never been threatened 53:00.844 --> 53:02.979 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% by anything he's ever said in his career. 53:02.979 --> 53:04.814 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He's that protected, 53:04.814 --> 53:06.917 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and that's a good thing, right? 53:06.917 --> 53:08.518 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You don't have to be destitute 53:08.518 --> 53:09.986 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in order to be a good person 53:09.986 --> 53:11.488 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or a good citizen, or do the right thing. 53:11.488 --> 53:13.990 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And the fact that they have that insulation is great, 53:13.990 --> 53:16.927 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but that does separate you from Muhammad, 53:16.927 --> 53:18.228 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% which is also a great thing. 53:18.228 --> 53:19.930 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You don't want to be in that category. 53:19.930 --> 53:22.032 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He did this for us. 53:22.032 --> 53:23.667 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We don't need any others 53:23.667 --> 53:25.602 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to keep doing this for us. 53:25.602 --> 53:29.739 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so, I always feel when you come back 53:29.739 --> 53:30.674 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to what he went through 53:30.674 --> 53:31.908 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and you see it in the film, 53:31.908 --> 53:35.579 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% especially '67 to '70-'71, 53:35.579 --> 53:36.513 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and even beyond, 53:36.513 --> 53:38.315 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% even by the time you get to '74, 53:38.315 --> 53:40.350 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% it's unprecedented what you saw 53:40.350 --> 53:43.687 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because I honestly believe that most athletes, 53:43.687 --> 53:48.625 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% most people would have found some way to compromise 53:48.625 --> 53:51.161 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and not go as far as he went. 53:51.161 --> 53:53.630 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He did not compromise at all 53:53.630 --> 53:55.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and still found his way back. 53:55.966 --> 53:57.167 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Most players who do, 53:57.167 --> 53:58.802 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% most people who do what he did, 53:58.802 --> 53:59.769 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% they get broken, 53:59.769 --> 54:01.037 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and he didn't get broken. 54:01.037 --> 54:02.072 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% He was unbroken. 54:04.307 --> 54:05.442 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - He absolutely was. 54:05.442 --> 54:07.110 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And one of the comments that you made 54:07.110 --> 54:08.044 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in the film, Howard, 54:08.044 --> 54:10.580 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that I found really resonant was 54:10.580 --> 54:12.949 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that the Rumble in The Jungle, 54:14.751 --> 54:17.587 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% him coming back and beating Foreman, 54:17.587 --> 54:18.822 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% he was made whole. 54:20.123 --> 54:22.325 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He was made whole, and then that, 54:22.325 --> 54:25.095 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in terms of his story and what it meant, 54:25.095 --> 54:27.330 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% was so rewarding. 54:27.330 --> 54:29.199 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% (speaking over each other) 54:29.199 --> 54:30.367 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - I was going to say, Jesse, 54:30.367 --> 54:31.601 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when we think about these stories, 54:31.601 --> 54:34.271 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% even Jackie, even Jackie Robinson, 54:34.271 --> 54:39.276 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% at some point, realized what had been taken from him. 54:40.143 --> 54:41.144 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Kurt Flood lost his career. 54:41.144 --> 54:42.445 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Colin Kaepernick lost his career. 54:42.445 --> 54:44.414 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Smith and Carlos lost their careers. 54:44.414 --> 54:47.050 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Everybody who talks, they find a way to break you. 54:48.118 --> 54:49.653 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And he had to win that fight, 54:49.653 --> 54:51.621 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that's why Zaire is my favorite fight. 54:51.621 --> 54:54.791 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Zaire the resilient spirit of resistance. 54:54.791 --> 54:56.192 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It is everything. 54:56.192 --> 54:57.594 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And think about... 54:57.594 --> 54:59.763 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Are we even watching this film 54:59.763 --> 55:00.997 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% if he loses that fight? 55:00.997 --> 55:02.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Is there a film if he lo... 55:02.666 --> 55:03.867 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's a different film. 55:03.867 --> 55:05.335 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% But the story. 55:05.335 --> 55:07.871 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Most of us lose when they come after you. 55:09.439 --> 55:10.640 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Yeah, yeah. 55:10.640 --> 55:12.642 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So he was made whole, absolutely. 55:12.642 --> 55:13.943 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I agree with you. 55:13.943 --> 55:15.111 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And then, at the end of the film, 55:15.111 --> 55:16.813 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% we see him in pieces. 55:16.813 --> 55:20.350 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And the pieces of him that that made him so compelling, 55:20.350 --> 55:22.519 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% his voice, his movement, 55:22.519 --> 55:23.953 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% are what's robbed from him. 55:23.953 --> 55:28.058 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And the film even quotes Ali as saying, 55:28.058 --> 55:30.660 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "This may be my punishment for the wrongs that I've done 55:30.660 --> 55:34.230 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "and the way I treated these opponents 55:34.230 --> 55:36.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "or the infidelities that I had 55:36.266 --> 55:38.368 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "in my relationships and things like that." 55:38.368 --> 55:42.072 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So what part of the Ali story 55:42.072 --> 55:47.077 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and the meaning of his story is filled by his condition 55:47.811 --> 55:49.412 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% at the end of his life? 55:49.412 --> 55:51.047 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And maybe, Rasheda, I'll start with you 55:51.047 --> 55:53.016 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% since you interacted with him personally 55:53.016 --> 55:54.751 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and had to see him in this state. 55:54.751 --> 55:57.387 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% How does that part of it fit into 55:57.387 --> 55:59.089 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the overall message of his life? 56:00.056 --> 56:02.726 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Well, I mentioned after I saw 56:03.893 --> 56:06.830 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% all the clips, the whole entire series, 56:06.830 --> 56:10.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mentioned to Ken, and Sarah Burns, 56:10.033 --> 56:14.504 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that it was really beautiful to watch my dad, 56:15.605 --> 56:17.474 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the good and the bad. 56:17.474 --> 56:20.543 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He was young, changing the world. 56:20.543 --> 56:22.212 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You're going to make mistakes. 56:22.212 --> 56:24.714 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But it's beautiful a man evolve 56:24.714 --> 56:25.949 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% into a better man. 56:25.949 --> 56:28.385 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's always evolving into a better man. 56:28.385 --> 56:30.153 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's not the same person he is now. 56:30.153 --> 56:31.821 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% His convictions are the same 56:31.821 --> 56:34.124 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but his choices aren't the same. 56:34.124 --> 56:39.095 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So it's beautiful to watch how my dad has come full circle, 56:39.095 --> 56:42.165 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and kind of had regrets with the Malcolm X 56:42.165 --> 56:44.501 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and Frazier and stuff. 56:44.501 --> 56:45.935 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% He was human. 56:45.935 --> 56:49.906 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And when Parkinson's became a part of his life, 56:49.906 --> 56:52.041 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% my dad was devastated, 56:52.041 --> 56:55.578 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I think he disappeared from the media for a while 56:55.578 --> 56:59.382 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because he was trying to figure out, 56:59.382 --> 57:00.950 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% wrap his brain around, 57:00.950 --> 57:03.553 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what is this condition that is stopping me 57:03.553 --> 57:06.089 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% from being the person I was? 57:06.089 --> 57:09.626 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Because my dad's biggest asset was his mouth. 57:09.626 --> 57:11.761 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so, then you get this condition 57:11.761 --> 57:13.797 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that's muting him 57:13.797 --> 57:17.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and now, he's barely some... 57:17.333 --> 57:18.802 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% In some clips you'll see, 57:18.802 --> 57:20.437 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% he's barely whispering. 57:20.437 --> 57:22.272 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So that was his strength. 57:22.272 --> 57:27.043 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so, my dad had to kind of really figure out, 57:27.043 --> 57:29.012 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "What am I going to do with this 57:29.012 --> 57:31.314 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "now new condition?" 57:31.314 --> 57:35.185 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But then, you see in 1996, 57:35.185 --> 57:37.420 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% where he's lighting the torch for the Olympics, 57:37.420 --> 57:41.925 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he comes out of the dark and into the light 57:41.925 --> 57:43.226 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and shows people, 57:43.226 --> 57:44.861 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% it's very brave move, 57:44.861 --> 57:46.863 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that I could have Parkinson's, 57:46.863 --> 57:49.332 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I can light this torch and I can still be great. 57:49.332 --> 57:51.334 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But he's not doing it for just himself, 57:51.334 --> 57:52.535 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he's doing it for other people 57:52.535 --> 57:54.270 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% with neurocognitive diseases. 57:54.270 --> 57:55.672 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So that was the brave part, 57:55.672 --> 57:57.874 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is that he's letting other people know 57:57.874 --> 58:01.110 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that this does not define who you are. 58:01.110 --> 58:02.479 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This is what you have, 58:02.479 --> 58:04.581 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this has not defined who you are. 58:04.581 --> 58:08.184 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You can still be great and have this condition. 58:08.184 --> 58:10.720 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So that was what was beautiful, 58:10.720 --> 58:12.222 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to watch him evolving, 58:12.222 --> 58:13.790 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% even with this condition 58:13.790 --> 58:15.024 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that, in some cases, 58:15.024 --> 58:16.759 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% would have broke most people down. 58:16.759 --> 58:17.694 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But we've got to remember 58:17.694 --> 58:19.896 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% my dad was always a fighter. 58:19.896 --> 58:22.065 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So throughout his entire life, 58:22.065 --> 58:24.267 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he used his core principles, 58:24.267 --> 58:25.735 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% including his faith, 58:25.735 --> 58:29.639 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to get through a lot of the trials and tribulations 58:29.639 --> 58:31.074 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% that he faced. 58:31.074 --> 58:33.476 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I don't think any other person had ever faced so many 58:33.476 --> 58:34.744 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% all in one lifetime. 58:34.744 --> 58:37.680 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So it's really wonderful to see that 58:37.680 --> 58:39.148 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% even with Parkinson's, 58:39.148 --> 58:41.050 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he's still going out and doing 58:41.050 --> 58:41.985 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% what he loves best, 58:41.985 --> 58:43.353 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and that's helping people. 58:43.353 --> 58:45.488 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And it's really inspiring and motivating, 58:45.488 --> 58:47.056 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it brought tears to my eyes, Ken, 58:47.056 --> 58:48.558 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I have to tell you that, 58:48.558 --> 58:51.661 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because when you're watching daddy struggling, 58:51.661 --> 58:52.929 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% walking and talking, 58:52.929 --> 58:54.864 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it's hard to do certain things 58:54.864 --> 58:55.932 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in the late stages, 58:55.932 --> 58:57.534 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he's still helping people 58:57.534 --> 58:59.569 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I think that's the overall message. 58:59.569 --> 59:01.671 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think my dad wanted all of us, 59:01.671 --> 59:04.274 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% no matter what happens to you in your life, 59:04.274 --> 59:07.076 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% service to others is the rent you pay 59:07.076 --> 59:08.278 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% for your room in heaven. 59:09.546 --> 59:10.980 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 59:10.980 --> 59:14.450 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Howard, what do you think about this him being made whole 59:14.450 --> 59:15.852 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in the Rumble in The Jungle, 59:15.852 --> 59:18.922 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and then being broken down toward the end? 59:20.089 --> 59:22.492 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, I always felt there was... 59:22.492 --> 59:23.693 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's very poignant. 59:23.693 --> 59:25.261 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's very painful. 59:25.261 --> 59:26.629 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And he's a professional, 59:26.629 --> 59:27.997 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and this is what you know. 59:27.997 --> 59:29.198 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% This is... 59:29.198 --> 59:31.134 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We always talk about "the athlete's journey," 59:31.134 --> 59:33.002 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and this is the athlete's journey. 59:33.002 --> 59:38.007 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And he was going to go until he couldn't go anymore. 59:40.009 --> 59:42.645 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There's always a piece of you that believes 59:42.645 --> 59:44.614 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that if I just make this adjustment, 59:44.614 --> 59:45.648 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I can win this fight 59:45.648 --> 59:46.950 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or if I just do this, like... 59:46.950 --> 59:49.185 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And boxing is the cruelest lesson 59:49.185 --> 59:51.521 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because there's only one way to go out in boxing 59:51.521 --> 59:52.655 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% if you're not gonna... 59:52.655 --> 59:54.857 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% At some point, you're going to lose. 59:54.857 --> 59:57.827 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And for me, it wasn't... 59:57.827 --> 01:00:00.730 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The Zaire fight was the pinnacle. 01:00:00.730 --> 01:00:03.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The Larry Holmes fight and the Berbick fight, 01:00:03.366 --> 01:00:04.801 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% those are the ones where it was like... 01:00:04.801 --> 01:00:06.402 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Especially Berbick, it's like... 01:00:07.303 --> 01:00:09.939 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You didn't want to see it. 01:00:09.939 --> 01:00:11.140 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% It's hard. 01:00:11.140 --> 01:00:12.375 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's almost like look at a family member 01:00:12.375 --> 01:00:13.843 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% 'cause you love Muhammad so much. 01:00:13.843 --> 01:00:18.047 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I always felt like when you watched the end... 01:00:18.047 --> 01:00:19.282 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% 'Cause I remember, I was a kid. 01:00:19.282 --> 01:00:20.750 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I was in elementary and middle school 01:00:20.750 --> 01:00:22.352 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% when he was coming to the end. 01:00:23.853 --> 01:00:25.254 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You knew how much you love him 01:00:25.254 --> 01:00:26.489 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% 'cause you didn't want to see him fight, 01:00:26.489 --> 01:00:28.391 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you didn't want him to go back out there. 01:00:29.626 --> 01:00:31.127 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And it's the fight, 01:00:31.127 --> 01:00:33.429 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this is what it is when you're at that level. 01:00:33.429 --> 01:00:34.864 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% There's only one way. 01:00:34.864 --> 01:00:37.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Very few people recognize, 01:00:37.133 --> 01:00:40.703 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "I'm going to go without being told to leave." 01:00:40.703 --> 01:00:42.372 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Most athletes get told to leave. 01:00:46.976 --> 01:00:48.277 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - We're coming to the end, 01:00:48.277 --> 01:00:50.079 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but we do have some audience questions. 01:00:50.079 --> 01:00:52.615 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And Ken, I'd like to throw this one at you 01:00:53.616 --> 01:00:56.352 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% from Brandon in Washington. 01:00:56.352 --> 01:00:58.821 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And he asked, "What was different from making this film 01:00:58.821 --> 01:01:01.491 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "from making his favorite documentary, "Baseball"?" 01:01:01.491 --> 01:01:03.459 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And I'll sort of layer into that. 01:01:03.459 --> 01:01:05.428 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We love all of our children 01:01:05.428 --> 01:01:07.330 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but we love all of them differently, 01:01:07.330 --> 01:01:09.532 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% so at this point in your career, 01:01:10.967 --> 01:01:12.568 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% what is special to you 01:01:12.568 --> 01:01:14.404 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about this particular film compared 01:01:14.404 --> 01:01:16.506 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to "Baseball" on all of your other children? 01:01:18.341 --> 01:01:19.342 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - You're muted, Ken. 01:01:22.712 --> 01:01:24.247 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Sorry. 01:01:24.247 --> 01:01:25.515 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's a good question. 01:01:26.449 --> 01:01:28.084 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I think that for us, 01:01:28.084 --> 01:01:30.853 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the process is always the same. 01:01:30.853 --> 01:01:33.589 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's really just a lot of discipline and hard work. 01:01:33.589 --> 01:01:36.859 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, it's not akin to preparing for a fight, 01:01:36.859 --> 01:01:38.461 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and then each fight is different. 01:01:38.461 --> 01:01:41.464 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Each one of these films is different. 01:01:41.464 --> 01:01:44.767 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And Howard has been around enough of our films 01:01:44.767 --> 01:01:47.770 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to know that there's a kind of consistency 01:01:47.770 --> 01:01:49.072 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to the discipline. 01:01:49.072 --> 01:01:51.007 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, we put a name on it, "Muhammad Ali," 01:01:51.007 --> 01:01:53.276 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it comes out in September and that's it 01:01:53.276 --> 01:01:56.379 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but we're working everyday on other films 01:01:56.379 --> 01:02:00.316 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and even films that are over with have a life of their own. 01:02:00.316 --> 01:02:02.685 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think what I said at the beginning is 01:02:02.685 --> 01:02:05.388 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% what is so special about this, 01:02:05.388 --> 01:02:09.892 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is that we have necessarily dealt 01:02:09.892 --> 01:02:13.096 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in the films, over the last 40 years, 01:02:13.096 --> 01:02:15.631 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% with extraordinary human beings. 01:02:15.631 --> 01:02:20.636 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I don't know anyone more extraordinary than him 01:02:23.573 --> 01:02:25.608 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% with all the flaws, 01:02:25.608 --> 01:02:27.944 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% with all the glory, 01:02:27.944 --> 01:02:31.647 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and that I love this underlying message of love. 01:02:31.647 --> 01:02:33.950 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And in some ways, there's a kind of poetry 01:02:33.950 --> 01:02:37.286 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to being silenced by Parkinson's 01:02:37.286 --> 01:02:39.522 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% for this big mouth of a guy. 01:02:39.522 --> 01:02:42.759 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Not to shut him up, as so many people wanted do, 01:02:42.759 --> 01:02:44.360 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but to let him go in 01:02:44.360 --> 01:02:47.563 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and make his spirit even brighter. 01:02:47.563 --> 01:02:49.999 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It's an amazing Testament. 01:02:49.999 --> 01:02:53.770 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And let us also say that we spend too much 01:02:53.770 --> 01:02:58.541 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% of our time relegating African-American history to February, 01:02:59.942 --> 01:03:01.744 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% our shortest and coldest month. 01:03:02.912 --> 01:03:05.181 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's at the center of our identity 01:03:05.181 --> 01:03:07.416 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and we don't want to deal with that. 01:03:07.416 --> 01:03:08.818 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We just don't want to deal with that, 01:03:08.818 --> 01:03:11.220 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and that's all that you can do. 01:03:11.220 --> 01:03:13.356 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You cannot scratch the surface 01:03:13.356 --> 01:03:16.359 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of American history without coming into contact 01:03:16.359 --> 01:03:19.428 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with this essential contradiction. 01:03:19.428 --> 01:03:22.765 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And then, the extraordinary gift 01:03:22.765 --> 01:03:26.536 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that African-Americans in the face of 01:03:26.536 --> 01:03:30.206 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that hypocrisy and contradiction have 01:03:30.206 --> 01:03:34.310 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% nevertheless bestowed on us lessons, 01:03:34.310 --> 01:03:39.315 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% examples, models, as as Sherman would say, 01:03:39.782 --> 01:03:40.616 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% music, 01:03:41.784 --> 01:03:43.719 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% performance, 01:03:43.719 --> 01:03:44.987 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% excellence. 01:03:44.987 --> 01:03:49.058 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% All of these gifts are not recorded equally. 01:03:51.894 --> 01:03:54.697 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% There's nobody bigger than him. 01:03:58.401 --> 01:03:59.368 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Thank you. 01:03:59.368 --> 01:04:00.303 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Thank you so much for that. 01:04:00.303 --> 01:04:01.537 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And thank you for bringing 01:04:01.537 --> 01:04:03.840 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% up the importance of black history 01:04:03.840 --> 01:04:05.675 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in history overall. 01:04:05.675 --> 01:04:08.311 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I'm glad that your film is premiering. 01:04:08.311 --> 01:04:11.747 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It's September 19th on PBS. 01:04:11.747 --> 01:04:13.216 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And here at The Undefeated, 01:04:13.216 --> 01:04:14.951 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we believe in black history always, 01:04:14.951 --> 01:04:16.619 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% every month of the year. 01:04:16.619 --> 01:04:19.322 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So congratulations on this film. 01:04:19.322 --> 01:04:21.023 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It's a monumental achievement. 01:04:21.023 --> 01:04:21.858 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Thank you, Ken. 01:04:21.858 --> 01:04:23.226 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Thank you, Rasheda. 01:04:23.226 --> 01:04:24.660 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Thank you, Howard. 01:04:24.660 --> 01:04:26.863 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And to our audience, thank you for joining us. 01:04:26.863 --> 01:04:28.998 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Please tune in for more of these conversations 01:04:28.998 --> 01:04:30.199 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and the film itself, 01:04:30.199 --> 01:04:33.002 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which premieres on September 19th on PBS.