1 00:00:02,769 --> 00:00:05,538 - Good evening and welcome to our third event 2 00:00:05,538 --> 00:00:09,743 in our discussion series, "Conversations on Muhammad Ali," 3 00:00:09,743 --> 00:00:14,180 presented by PBS and ESPN's "The Undefeated." 4 00:00:14,180 --> 00:00:18,351 I'm Sylvia Bugg, Chief Programming Executive at PBS. 5 00:00:18,351 --> 00:00:21,154 This September, PBS is delighted to present 6 00:00:21,154 --> 00:00:24,324 the latest from Ken Burns, Sarah Burns, 7 00:00:24,324 --> 00:00:26,059 David McMahon and their team, 8 00:00:26,059 --> 00:00:28,294 a four-part documentary series 9 00:00:28,294 --> 00:00:31,431 on the global icon, Muhammad Ali. 10 00:00:31,431 --> 00:00:34,200 Tonight, we continue our examination 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,669 of the complex life of one of America's 12 00:00:36,669 --> 00:00:39,406 greatest figures of the 20th century. 13 00:00:39,406 --> 00:00:43,610 He entered the public arena and was known as Cassius Clay, 14 00:00:43,610 --> 00:00:47,180 but his Muslim faith and loyalty to the Nation of Islam 15 00:00:47,180 --> 00:00:51,051 inspired him to change his name to Muhammad Ali. 16 00:00:51,051 --> 00:00:53,586 Though he openly admitted he was not perfect 17 00:00:53,586 --> 00:00:56,589 at living out the tenets of the Islamic faith, 18 00:00:56,589 --> 00:00:59,793 the influence of the powerful Nation of Islam leader, 19 00:00:59,793 --> 00:01:02,862 Elijah Muhammad, and his friend, Malcolm X, 20 00:01:02,862 --> 00:01:04,564 deeply shaped his worldview, 21 00:01:04,564 --> 00:01:06,332 which was not often understood 22 00:01:06,332 --> 00:01:08,868 by the American public at the time. 23 00:01:08,868 --> 00:01:10,804 Tonight's discussion will explore 24 00:01:10,804 --> 00:01:13,306 the interwoven nature of race and religion 25 00:01:13,306 --> 00:01:15,408 in Muhammad Ali's own life 26 00:01:15,408 --> 00:01:19,746 and its impact on sports, society, and culture today. 27 00:01:19,746 --> 00:01:22,882 Joining Ken Burns tonight are Ibtihaj Muhammad, 28 00:01:22,882 --> 00:01:25,351 Olympic medalist and change agent, 29 00:01:25,351 --> 00:01:29,155 Sherman Jackson, King Faisal Chair 30 00:01:29,155 --> 00:01:31,157 of Islamic Thought and Culture 31 00:01:31,157 --> 00:01:33,827 at the University of Southern California, 32 00:01:33,827 --> 00:01:35,328 and Justin Tinsley, 33 00:01:35,328 --> 00:01:37,964 ESPN and "The Undefeated" senior writer 34 00:01:37,964 --> 00:01:40,433 who will moderate the conversation. 35 00:01:40,433 --> 00:01:42,669 Before we begin tonight's discussion, 36 00:01:42,669 --> 00:01:46,206 let's take a look at the introduction to the film. 37 00:01:46,206 --> 00:01:48,308 Thank you for joining us this evening 38 00:01:48,308 --> 00:01:49,909 and don't forget to tune in 39 00:01:49,909 --> 00:01:52,245 to the premiere of "Muhammad Ali" 40 00:01:52,245 --> 00:01:57,217 on September 19th at 8:00 PM Eastern time on PBS. 41 00:02:03,490 --> 00:02:07,927 - You want some breakfast? - I want some cornflakes. 42 00:02:07,927 --> 00:02:10,530 - Can I have some of your cornflakes? 43 00:02:10,530 --> 00:02:11,798 Oh, I don't want none. 44 00:02:11,798 --> 00:02:14,000 I won't take none, I won't take none. 45 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,102 I won't eat none if you don't want me to. 46 00:02:16,102 --> 00:02:17,670 Ooh, look at that pretty horsey. 47 00:02:17,670 --> 00:02:19,472 - Where? - Is that a white horse? 48 00:02:19,472 --> 00:02:20,440 See? 49 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:21,875 No, stand up, look over there. 50 00:02:21,875 --> 00:02:24,077 Stand up, you gotta stand up, over them hills. 51 00:02:24,077 --> 00:02:26,646 See the big one, there he is. 52 00:02:26,646 --> 00:02:29,315 (child gasping) 53 00:02:30,583 --> 00:02:32,318 What? (man laughing) 54 00:02:32,318 --> 00:02:33,686 Where's the love? 55 00:02:33,686 --> 00:02:37,524 (crowd cheering and chanting) 56 00:02:41,194 --> 00:02:42,795 - My earliest memories that I can think of 57 00:02:42,795 --> 00:02:45,865 as a child with my father are walking through airports 58 00:02:45,865 --> 00:02:47,534 and being in crowds 59 00:02:47,534 --> 00:02:49,302 and feeling the vibrations 60 00:02:49,302 --> 00:02:52,872 of people's clapping and shouts in my chest. 61 00:02:52,872 --> 00:02:54,340 And just looking at my dad, you know, 62 00:02:54,340 --> 00:02:55,909 like, "Who is this person?" 63 00:02:57,243 --> 00:02:59,712 And it was all the time, anywhere we went. 64 00:02:59,712 --> 00:03:00,713 "You're the greatest, we love you!" 65 00:03:00,713 --> 00:03:03,016 And the clapping and "Muhammad." 66 00:03:03,016 --> 00:03:05,852 (Ali and crowd speaking in foreign language) 67 00:03:05,852 --> 00:03:07,520 - [Hana] I loved feeling all the energy 68 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:09,088 and the love that he felt. 69 00:03:09,088 --> 00:03:10,623 (crowd chanting) 70 00:03:10,623 --> 00:03:14,627 - We now think of Muhammad Ali as this vulnerable guy 71 00:03:14,627 --> 00:03:16,329 lighting the torch in Atlanta 72 00:03:16,329 --> 00:03:18,998 and everybody on the globe loves him. 73 00:03:18,998 --> 00:03:20,934 Black people like him, white people, 74 00:03:20,934 --> 00:03:23,269 he's a universal hero, 75 00:03:23,269 --> 00:03:26,406 almost in a religious way, like the Buddha, 76 00:03:26,406 --> 00:03:28,141 but when he was in the midst of his career, 77 00:03:28,141 --> 00:03:29,409 and not just in the early bit, 78 00:03:29,409 --> 00:03:32,045 he was incredibly divisive. 79 00:03:32,045 --> 00:03:34,747 - Boo, yell, scream, throw peanuts, 80 00:03:34,747 --> 00:03:38,451 but whatever you do, pay to get in. 81 00:03:38,451 --> 00:03:40,053 - People hated him, 82 00:03:40,053 --> 00:03:41,254 whether it was along racial lines, 83 00:03:41,254 --> 00:03:42,889 class lines, Vietnam lines, 84 00:03:42,889 --> 00:03:44,791 political lines, religious lines, 85 00:03:44,791 --> 00:03:46,292 or they just couldn't stand him. 86 00:03:46,292 --> 00:03:47,560 And people of course said the opposite. 87 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:49,562 And this was, "I loved him, loved him." 88 00:03:49,562 --> 00:03:51,264 ("Freedom" by Beyonce playing) 89 00:03:51,264 --> 00:03:53,399 But he had an opinion about it. 90 00:03:56,803 --> 00:03:58,538 - I ain't scared to do battle. 91 00:03:58,538 --> 00:04:00,907 It would take a good man to whoop me! You can look at me. 92 00:04:00,907 --> 00:04:01,741 I'm more than just confident. 93 00:04:01,741 --> 00:04:02,575 I can't be beat! 94 00:04:02,575 --> 00:04:04,944 (indistinct) 95 00:04:04,944 --> 00:04:06,746 And I'm pretty as hell. 96 00:04:06,746 --> 00:04:07,981 Look how pretty I am. 97 00:04:07,981 --> 00:04:10,683 (crowd laughing) 98 00:04:10,683 --> 00:04:12,885 My honed, trimmed legs and my beautiful arms 99 00:04:12,885 --> 00:04:13,853 and my pretty nose and mouth. 100 00:04:13,853 --> 00:04:15,221 I know I'm a pretty man. 101 00:04:15,221 --> 00:04:16,489 I know I'm pretty. 102 00:04:16,489 --> 00:04:18,024 You don't have to tell me I'm pretty. 103 00:04:18,024 --> 00:04:19,492 I'm cocky. I'm proud. 104 00:04:19,492 --> 00:04:21,894 Never talk about who's gonna stop me. 105 00:04:21,894 --> 00:04:23,029 Ain't nobody gonna stop me! 106 00:04:23,029 --> 00:04:24,264 I say what I wanna say. 107 00:04:24,264 --> 00:04:26,399 Ain't no more big niggas talking like this. 108 00:04:26,399 --> 00:04:27,734 (dynamic music continuing) 109 00:04:27,734 --> 00:04:30,937 - He was a pioneer. He was a revolutionary. 110 00:04:30,937 --> 00:04:32,872 He was a ground-breaker, 111 00:04:32,872 --> 00:04:36,776 a guy known simply as "the greatest." 112 00:04:36,776 --> 00:04:37,610 - I am the greatest! 113 00:04:39,112 --> 00:04:40,680 I've wrestled with alligators, 114 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:42,348 I've tussled with a whale, 115 00:04:42,348 --> 00:04:44,183 I done handcuffed lighting 116 00:04:44,183 --> 00:04:45,518 and put thunder in jail. 117 00:04:45,518 --> 00:04:46,853 You know I'm bad. 118 00:04:49,355 --> 00:04:51,057 I can drown the drink of water 119 00:04:51,057 --> 00:04:52,492 and kill a dead tree. 120 00:04:52,492 --> 00:04:54,260 This will be no contest! 121 00:04:54,260 --> 00:04:56,062 Wait till you see Muhammad Ali. 122 00:04:58,164 --> 00:04:59,499 - To have that chutzpah 123 00:04:59,499 --> 00:05:01,200 and to be a Black man in America 124 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,002 was just outlandish. 125 00:05:04,070 --> 00:05:05,638 - Muhammad means "worthy of all praises" 126 00:05:05,638 --> 00:05:07,540 and Ali means "most high." 127 00:05:07,540 --> 00:05:10,310 And I just don't think I should go 10,000 miles 128 00:05:10,310 --> 00:05:11,444 and shoot some Black people 129 00:05:11,444 --> 00:05:12,712 who never called me "nigger." 130 00:05:12,712 --> 00:05:14,247 I just can't shoot 'em. 131 00:05:14,247 --> 00:05:16,249 I always wondered why Miss America was always white. 132 00:05:16,249 --> 00:05:17,350 Santa Claus was white. 133 00:05:17,350 --> 00:05:19,552 White Swan soap, King White soap. 134 00:05:19,552 --> 00:05:21,087 White Cloud tissue paper. 135 00:05:21,087 --> 00:05:22,822 And everything bad was black. 136 00:05:22,822 --> 00:05:24,624 Black cat was the bad luck. 137 00:05:24,624 --> 00:05:25,825 And if I threaten you, 138 00:05:25,825 --> 00:05:29,062 I'm gonna blackmail you. (audience laughing) 139 00:05:29,062 --> 00:05:30,496 I said, "Mama, why don't they call it whitemail? 140 00:05:30,496 --> 00:05:31,531 They lie too." 141 00:05:31,531 --> 00:05:32,932 - I loved being around him. 142 00:05:32,932 --> 00:05:35,234 I love being around Muhammad Ali. 143 00:05:36,369 --> 00:05:37,937 - [Ali] You gonna float like a butterfly 144 00:05:37,937 --> 00:05:39,572 and sting like a bee. 145 00:05:39,572 --> 00:05:40,606 - Ah! - Ah! 146 00:05:40,606 --> 00:05:42,575 - Rumble, young man, rumble. 147 00:05:42,575 --> 00:05:43,409 - Ah! - Ah! 148 00:05:43,409 --> 00:05:44,577 ("Freedom" resuming) 149 00:05:44,577 --> 00:05:45,545 - The price of freedom comes high. 150 00:05:45,545 --> 00:05:47,914 I have paid, but I am free. 151 00:05:47,914 --> 00:05:50,383 ♪ Freedom, freedom, I can't move ♪ 152 00:05:50,383 --> 00:05:53,353 ♪ Freedom, cut me loose ♪ 153 00:05:53,353 --> 00:05:55,788 ♪ Freedom, freedom, where are you ♪ 154 00:05:55,788 --> 00:05:58,257 ♪ 'Cause I need freedom too ♪ 155 00:05:58,257 --> 00:06:00,760 ♪ I break chains all by myself ♪ 156 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,963 ♪ Won't let my freedom rot in hell ♪ 157 00:06:03,963 --> 00:06:05,131 ♪ Hey ♪ 158 00:06:05,131 --> 00:06:06,399 ♪ I'ma keep running ♪ 159 00:06:06,399 --> 00:06:11,337 ♪ 'Cause a winner don't quit on themselves ♪ 160 00:06:12,905 --> 00:06:14,207 (sound of blows landing) 161 00:06:14,207 --> 00:06:15,475 (upbeat R&B music) 162 00:06:15,475 --> 00:06:17,810 - [Narrator] He called himself "the greatest" 163 00:06:17,810 --> 00:06:20,113 and then proved it to the entire world. 164 00:06:21,581 --> 00:06:24,817 He was a master at what is called the sweet science, 165 00:06:24,817 --> 00:06:27,854 the brutal and sometimes beautiful art of boxing. 166 00:06:29,288 --> 00:06:32,024 Heavyweight champion at just 22 years old, 167 00:06:32,024 --> 00:06:35,762 he wrote his own rules in the ring and in his life. 168 00:06:35,762 --> 00:06:39,298 Infuriating his critics, baffling his opponents, 169 00:06:39,298 --> 00:06:41,367 and riveting millions of fans. 170 00:06:43,202 --> 00:06:45,004 At the height of the civil rights movement, 171 00:06:45,004 --> 00:06:47,473 he joined a separatist religious sect 172 00:06:47,473 --> 00:06:49,275 whose leader would, for a time, 173 00:06:49,275 --> 00:06:51,477 dominate both his personal life 174 00:06:51,477 --> 00:06:52,779 and his boxing career. 175 00:06:53,946 --> 00:06:56,716 He spoke his mind and stood on principle, 176 00:06:56,716 --> 00:06:58,618 even when it cost him his livelihood. 177 00:07:00,219 --> 00:07:02,722 He redefined Black manhood, 178 00:07:02,722 --> 00:07:04,690 yet belittled his greatest rival 179 00:07:04,690 --> 00:07:07,427 using the racist language of the Jim Crow South 180 00:07:07,427 --> 00:07:08,861 in which he had been raised. 181 00:07:10,696 --> 00:07:12,198 Banished for his beliefs, 182 00:07:12,198 --> 00:07:14,834 he returned to boxing an underdog, 183 00:07:14,834 --> 00:07:17,236 reclaimed his title twice 184 00:07:17,236 --> 00:07:19,305 and became the most famous man on earth. 185 00:07:21,474 --> 00:07:24,110 He craved adulation his whole life, 186 00:07:24,110 --> 00:07:26,345 seeking crowds on street corners, 187 00:07:26,345 --> 00:07:28,047 in hotel lobbies, 188 00:07:28,047 --> 00:07:30,950 on airport tarmacs everywhere he went, 189 00:07:32,118 --> 00:07:34,554 and reveled in the uninhibited joy 190 00:07:34,554 --> 00:07:36,389 he brought each adoring fan. 191 00:07:38,324 --> 00:07:42,128 He earned a massive fortune, spent it freely 192 00:07:42,128 --> 00:07:46,833 and gave generously to family, friends, even strangers, 193 00:07:46,833 --> 00:07:47,934 anyone in need. 194 00:07:49,268 --> 00:07:51,537 Service to others, he often said, 195 00:07:51,537 --> 00:07:54,640 is the rent you pay for your room here on earth. 196 00:07:56,542 --> 00:07:59,145 Even after his body began to betray him 197 00:07:59,145 --> 00:08:01,848 and his brain had absorbed too many blows, 198 00:08:01,848 --> 00:08:02,782 he fought on, 199 00:08:03,916 --> 00:08:06,219 unable to go without the attention and drama 200 00:08:06,219 --> 00:08:07,720 that accompanied each bout. 201 00:08:09,956 --> 00:08:11,791 Later, slowed and silenced 202 00:08:11,791 --> 00:08:14,560 by a cruel and crippling disease, 203 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,129 he found refuge in his faith, 204 00:08:17,129 --> 00:08:20,199 becoming a symbol of peace and hope on every continent. 205 00:08:22,235 --> 00:08:24,904 Muhammad Ali was, the novelist Norman Mailer wrote, 206 00:08:26,105 --> 00:08:28,207 the very spirit of the 20th century. 207 00:08:30,142 --> 00:08:32,078 - I'm always gonna be one Black one 208 00:08:32,078 --> 00:08:34,514 who got big on your white televisions, 209 00:08:34,514 --> 00:08:36,983 on your white newspapers, on your satellites, 210 00:08:36,983 --> 00:08:38,484 million-dollar checks, 211 00:08:38,484 --> 00:08:41,153 and still look you in your face and tell you the truth 212 00:08:41,153 --> 00:08:44,290 and 100% stay with and represent my people 213 00:08:44,290 --> 00:08:46,692 and not leave 'em and sell 'em out because I'm rich. 214 00:08:46,692 --> 00:08:48,728 And stay with 'em, that was my purpose. 215 00:08:48,728 --> 00:08:50,263 I'm here and I'm showing the world 216 00:08:50,263 --> 00:08:52,598 that you can be here and still free 217 00:08:52,598 --> 00:08:54,100 and stay yourself 218 00:08:54,100 --> 00:08:55,368 and get respect from the world. 219 00:08:55,368 --> 00:08:57,970 (bell dinging) 220 00:09:05,344 --> 00:09:06,712 - Good evening, everyone. 221 00:09:06,712 --> 00:09:08,581 Good evening, everyone. 222 00:09:08,581 --> 00:09:10,816 My name is Justin Tinsley, 223 00:09:10,816 --> 00:09:12,685 a senior sports and culture reporter 224 00:09:12,685 --> 00:09:14,353 with ESPN's "The Undefeated," 225 00:09:14,353 --> 00:09:17,623 and to say I'm excited for this evening's event 226 00:09:17,623 --> 00:09:18,824 would be an understatement. 227 00:09:18,824 --> 00:09:22,295 It would be like saying Muhammad Ali was shy 228 00:09:22,295 --> 00:09:24,630 and he bit his tongue and he didn't wanna speak. 229 00:09:24,630 --> 00:09:26,499 That just wouldn't be true. 230 00:09:26,499 --> 00:09:29,402 But what is true is that for the next hour or so, 231 00:09:29,402 --> 00:09:30,903 we're gonna be speaking about the man 232 00:09:30,903 --> 00:09:32,338 who called himself "the greatest" 233 00:09:32,338 --> 00:09:34,941 even before he knew he was. 234 00:09:34,941 --> 00:09:38,077 And that would be Muhammad Ali, of course. (chuckling) 235 00:09:38,077 --> 00:09:39,278 Now over the summer, my colleagues, 236 00:09:39,278 --> 00:09:41,747 Jesse Washington and Lonnae O'Neill, 237 00:09:41,747 --> 00:09:43,282 they've helped moderate discussions 238 00:09:43,282 --> 00:09:45,585 about this truly, truly, truly, 239 00:09:45,585 --> 00:09:47,153 and I can't say this enough, 240 00:09:47,153 --> 00:09:50,222 this truly phenomenal documentary entitled "Muhammad Ali" 241 00:09:50,222 --> 00:09:54,327 which will be airing on PBS on September 19th. 242 00:09:54,327 --> 00:09:56,495 Now, I made a vow to myself 243 00:09:56,495 --> 00:09:59,332 that I would do a lot more listening than I would talking. 244 00:09:59,332 --> 00:10:00,933 So I'm about to shut up, 245 00:10:00,933 --> 00:10:04,470 but I'd like to introduce our esteemed panel 246 00:10:04,470 --> 00:10:07,239 for this discussion today on Muhammad Ali, 247 00:10:07,239 --> 00:10:08,741 race and religion 248 00:10:08,741 --> 00:10:11,377 that's brought to you by PBS and "The Undefeated." 249 00:10:11,377 --> 00:10:13,913 Now, first up, I wanna introduce the director, 250 00:10:13,913 --> 00:10:15,147 Ken Burns. 251 00:10:15,147 --> 00:10:17,450 He's the man behind some of the most phenomenal 252 00:10:17,450 --> 00:10:19,885 and thrilling documentaries that you're ever gonna see 253 00:10:19,885 --> 00:10:23,055 on topics like Jackie Robinson or the Central Park Five 254 00:10:23,055 --> 00:10:24,156 and the Vietnam War. 255 00:10:24,156 --> 00:10:25,558 And for my book, 256 00:10:25,558 --> 00:10:27,627 he's one of the best storytellers of my lifetime. 257 00:10:27,627 --> 00:10:30,329 I also wanna say that Sarah Burns and David McMahon 258 00:10:30,329 --> 00:10:32,832 were co-writers and co-directors of this film. 259 00:10:32,832 --> 00:10:36,535 So Ken, thank you so much for having me be a part of this, 260 00:10:36,535 --> 00:10:38,838 and thank you so much for speaking for this. 261 00:10:38,838 --> 00:10:40,840 - Justin, it's such a great pleasure to be with you. 262 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,409 We're so grateful to ESPN and "The Undefeated" 263 00:10:43,409 --> 00:10:45,111 that we've been able to have the third 264 00:10:45,111 --> 00:10:46,846 of what will be four conversations 265 00:10:46,846 --> 00:10:51,217 about this extraordinary human being, Muhammad Ali, 266 00:10:51,217 --> 00:10:53,319 and on behalf of Sarah and Dave, 267 00:10:53,319 --> 00:10:55,187 who are equally the co-directors 268 00:10:55,187 --> 00:10:56,922 and they are the two writers, 269 00:10:56,922 --> 00:11:01,827 so I'll be the flack, the publicity guy for them tonight. 270 00:11:03,162 --> 00:11:06,298 - I'd say you'd be really good in that role. 271 00:11:06,298 --> 00:11:09,268 Next up, I have the honor and the true privilege 272 00:11:09,268 --> 00:11:11,337 of introducing Ibtihaj Muhammad, 273 00:11:11,337 --> 00:11:13,139 she's an Olympic medalist in fencing, 274 00:11:13,139 --> 00:11:14,740 and she became the first Muslim woman 275 00:11:14,740 --> 00:11:16,742 to wear a hijab during the Olympics. 276 00:11:16,742 --> 00:11:18,444 But I've been a big fan of her for years, 277 00:11:18,444 --> 00:11:21,280 and every interview I've seen has just been a masterclass 278 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,849 in personality, nuance and perspective. 279 00:11:23,849 --> 00:11:25,051 And I'm not even saying this 280 00:11:25,051 --> 00:11:26,452 'cause she's sitting here right now, 281 00:11:26,452 --> 00:11:29,588 but she's as deserving of Time Magazine's 282 00:11:29,588 --> 00:11:31,791 "100 most influential people in the world" 283 00:11:31,791 --> 00:11:33,793 as anybody that you'll ever meet. 284 00:11:33,793 --> 00:11:35,561 She's an author, she's a change agent 285 00:11:35,561 --> 00:11:38,264 and she's always speaking truth to power. 286 00:11:38,264 --> 00:11:40,766 Ibtihaj, thank you so much for joining us. 287 00:11:40,766 --> 00:11:42,702 - Thanks for having me. 288 00:11:42,702 --> 00:11:44,170 - Absolutely. 289 00:11:44,170 --> 00:11:46,172 And next up we have Professor Sherman Jackson. 290 00:11:46,172 --> 00:11:47,506 He's the King Faisal Chair 291 00:11:47,506 --> 00:11:50,476 of Islamic thought and culture at USC. 292 00:11:50,476 --> 00:11:52,344 That's Southern California, not South Carolina. 293 00:11:52,344 --> 00:11:54,714 And he's been featured in the Washington Post 294 00:11:54,714 --> 00:11:56,215 and the Huffington Post. 295 00:11:56,215 --> 00:11:59,251 And Dr. Jackson has been listed as among 296 00:11:59,251 --> 00:12:02,455 the 10 most foremost experts on Islam in America. 297 00:12:02,455 --> 00:12:05,725 And though he may not be able to put this on his LinkedIn, 298 00:12:05,725 --> 00:12:08,527 he's definitely one of my favorite voices in this episode. 299 00:12:08,527 --> 00:12:11,997 So Professor Jackson, thank you so much for joining us. 300 00:12:13,132 --> 00:12:14,533 - Thank you very much for having me. 301 00:12:14,533 --> 00:12:15,935 Thank you for the kind words. 302 00:12:15,935 --> 00:12:18,104 - Oh, no. Look, the pleasure is all mine. 303 00:12:18,104 --> 00:12:19,371 Believe that. 304 00:12:19,371 --> 00:12:20,706 So I wanna get right into the discussion. 305 00:12:20,706 --> 00:12:22,074 I wanna ask each of you a question 306 00:12:22,074 --> 00:12:23,209 before we keep moving on. 307 00:12:23,209 --> 00:12:25,478 So Ken, I'll start with you. 308 00:12:25,478 --> 00:12:27,747 Muhammad Ali, he's remembered for a lot of things, 309 00:12:27,747 --> 00:12:29,181 of course, 310 00:12:29,181 --> 00:12:31,817 but his boxing career is perhaps what he's most known for. 311 00:12:31,817 --> 00:12:33,385 But this episode in particular, 312 00:12:33,385 --> 00:12:36,689 it focuses on the role of race and religion in his life. 313 00:12:36,689 --> 00:12:38,791 And what makes that so important 314 00:12:38,791 --> 00:12:41,160 when describing who Muhammad Ali is, 315 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,362 aside from his boxing career, 316 00:12:43,362 --> 00:12:46,532 and in some ways it may be even more important than that. 317 00:12:46,532 --> 00:12:47,767 - Thank you, Justin. 318 00:12:47,767 --> 00:12:49,502 There's a really wonderful moment 319 00:12:49,502 --> 00:12:50,669 towards the end of the film, 320 00:12:50,669 --> 00:12:52,371 the end of the fourth episode, 321 00:12:53,873 --> 00:12:55,674 when one of his daughters, Rashida, 322 00:12:55,674 --> 00:12:57,309 pinches her fingers together and said, 323 00:12:57,309 --> 00:12:59,011 "Boxing was only this much." 324 00:12:59,011 --> 00:13:02,014 Now, of course, this is the story of a boxer, 325 00:13:02,014 --> 00:13:03,616 that was his job, 326 00:13:03,616 --> 00:13:06,285 but she's implying that it could have been something else. 327 00:13:06,285 --> 00:13:08,921 He could have been as simple carpenter, for example. 328 00:13:08,921 --> 00:13:13,926 And we know in history, the fates of simple carpenters. 329 00:13:15,294 --> 00:13:19,098 She was essentially alluding to or reflecting back 330 00:13:19,098 --> 00:13:21,534 on what our whole effort has been, 331 00:13:21,534 --> 00:13:24,637 which was to put him in a much larger context 332 00:13:24,637 --> 00:13:25,905 than the boxing world. 333 00:13:25,905 --> 00:13:27,807 The context of his personal life, 334 00:13:27,807 --> 00:13:31,677 his birth in segregated Jim Crow Louisville, Kentucky, 335 00:13:31,677 --> 00:13:34,180 his childhood there, good and bad. 336 00:13:34,180 --> 00:13:36,482 Obviously the boxing part of it, 337 00:13:36,482 --> 00:13:38,717 the political parts of it. 338 00:13:38,717 --> 00:13:42,621 But really what we see is, this is a journey of faith. 339 00:13:42,621 --> 00:13:44,924 This is the awakening of a young man 340 00:13:46,859 --> 00:13:51,864 beset by the indignities of Jim Crow 341 00:13:52,765 --> 00:13:54,266 in the United States of America 342 00:13:54,266 --> 00:13:57,570 and looking for solutions and answers. 343 00:13:57,570 --> 00:14:02,274 And he finds that in the Nation of Islam and he grows. 344 00:14:02,274 --> 00:14:03,809 And I think too often, 345 00:14:03,809 --> 00:14:07,713 we talk about the Nation of Islam as a political choice 346 00:14:07,713 --> 00:14:09,582 and it's because he's a Black man 347 00:14:09,582 --> 00:14:11,217 saying no to the Vietnam War, 348 00:14:11,217 --> 00:14:13,052 but it's more than that. 349 00:14:13,052 --> 00:14:14,286 And it's evolving. 350 00:14:14,286 --> 00:14:16,622 It's never constant, it's never fixed. 351 00:14:16,622 --> 00:14:19,358 And so I think that accompanying 352 00:14:19,358 --> 00:14:23,462 all of the outer, more familiar biographical stuff 353 00:14:23,462 --> 00:14:26,532 is a much more difficult to explicate 354 00:14:26,532 --> 00:14:30,069 and contradictory at times and controversial at times 355 00:14:30,069 --> 00:14:33,606 adherence to the faith of this cult, 356 00:14:33,606 --> 00:14:37,576 which bears essentially very little to Islam, 357 00:14:37,576 --> 00:14:41,981 but is motivating him and enlarging his understanding 358 00:14:41,981 --> 00:14:44,483 so that by the end of his life, 359 00:14:44,483 --> 00:14:46,752 it has reached that kind of place. 360 00:14:46,752 --> 00:14:49,655 I think it's central to this story 361 00:14:49,655 --> 00:14:52,057 and it's central to understanding him. 362 00:14:56,462 --> 00:14:59,365 He's crossing all the intersections of the late 20th century 363 00:14:59,365 --> 00:15:02,501 with regard to sports, the role of sports in society, 364 00:15:02,501 --> 00:15:04,403 the role of Black athletes, 365 00:15:04,403 --> 00:15:06,105 he's redefining Black manhood. 366 00:15:06,105 --> 00:15:08,974 It's obviously intersecting with the civil rights movement. 367 00:15:08,974 --> 00:15:12,544 It's also about politics and war. 368 00:15:12,544 --> 00:15:16,715 And yet it's also about faith and it's about Islam 369 00:15:16,715 --> 00:15:18,350 and that's an important thing, 370 00:15:18,350 --> 00:15:20,953 and I think a glue that holds the larger, 371 00:15:20,953 --> 00:15:23,889 more complex biography together. 372 00:15:23,889 --> 00:15:28,894 And we were excited to be able to try to integrate that 373 00:15:30,229 --> 00:15:32,331 into this complicated narrative 374 00:15:32,331 --> 00:15:35,734 about one of the most spectacularly wonderful, 375 00:15:35,734 --> 00:15:37,002 complicated humans, 376 00:15:37,002 --> 00:15:40,439 as American as anybody I've ever come across 377 00:15:40,439 --> 00:15:43,242 in my 50 years of doing this. 378 00:15:43,242 --> 00:15:46,345 Abraham Lincoln, Ida B. Wells, 379 00:15:46,345 --> 00:15:49,448 Louis Armstrong, Benjamin Franklin, 380 00:15:49,448 --> 00:15:51,784 Franklin Roosevelt, Eleanor Roosevelt, 381 00:15:51,784 --> 00:15:52,785 Elizabeth Cady. 382 00:15:52,785 --> 00:15:54,353 There's a handful of people 383 00:15:54,353 --> 00:15:57,189 that just are undeniably American 384 00:15:57,189 --> 00:15:59,558 and what makes him so 385 00:15:59,558 --> 00:16:01,160 is this complex story. 386 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:02,861 And at the heart of this complex story 387 00:16:02,861 --> 00:16:05,898 is, of course, punching other people in a ring, 388 00:16:05,898 --> 00:16:07,132 basically naked, 389 00:16:07,132 --> 00:16:10,069 but it's also asking the fundamental questions 390 00:16:10,069 --> 00:16:12,338 of "What is my purpose here on earth?" 391 00:16:12,338 --> 00:16:17,209 And this young kid understood very early on that he had. 392 00:16:17,209 --> 00:16:18,410 And he says it, 393 00:16:18,410 --> 00:16:20,245 when he's talking about giving up boxing 394 00:16:20,245 --> 00:16:22,581 before any of the troubles, 395 00:16:22,581 --> 00:16:24,683 he says, "I know I'm here for a purpose," 396 00:16:24,683 --> 00:16:27,252 which means it doesn't have anything to do with boxing. 397 00:16:27,252 --> 00:16:28,921 He is an apostle of love. 398 00:16:28,921 --> 00:16:30,556 This is a story of freedom, 399 00:16:30,556 --> 00:16:33,659 it's a story of courage and it's a story of love. 400 00:16:33,659 --> 00:16:34,860 - Absolutely. 401 00:16:34,860 --> 00:16:36,128 And again, for everyone watching, 402 00:16:36,128 --> 00:16:38,230 this is a truly phenomenal documentary. 403 00:16:38,230 --> 00:16:40,299 I implore you to watch this later this month 404 00:16:40,299 --> 00:16:41,533 when it comes out. 405 00:16:41,533 --> 00:16:44,503 But just sticking with the totality of the man, 406 00:16:44,503 --> 00:16:46,805 Ibtihaj, I wanna go to you next. 407 00:16:46,805 --> 00:16:48,140 We're the same age, 408 00:16:48,140 --> 00:16:49,842 we were born roughly around the same time. 409 00:16:49,842 --> 00:16:52,945 And my question for you is this. 410 00:16:52,945 --> 00:16:56,115 Coming up, how was Muhammad Ali described to you? 411 00:16:56,115 --> 00:16:57,516 And as you got older, 412 00:16:57,516 --> 00:16:59,551 what was the most surprising or fascinating thing 413 00:16:59,551 --> 00:17:03,055 that you came to understand and learn about the man? 414 00:17:03,055 --> 00:17:04,857 - Well, I have to say that 415 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,062 Ken, you are really selling this series. 416 00:17:10,062 --> 00:17:13,465 I can't wait to tune in and watch with everyone. 417 00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:19,905 Muhammad Ali is the greatest sports figure of my life. 418 00:17:21,740 --> 00:17:24,877 He's someone that I've always looked to 419 00:17:24,877 --> 00:17:27,079 as a source of light. 420 00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:32,084 Growing up, I knew that he was this professional boxer 421 00:17:33,152 --> 00:17:35,054 and he was the greatest of all time, 422 00:17:35,054 --> 00:17:38,624 but this celebrated sports figure, 423 00:17:38,624 --> 00:17:41,960 I feel like in the Black community and Muslim community, 424 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,129 he really was a superhero. 425 00:17:44,129 --> 00:17:49,134 And my parents converted to Islam in the '70s. 426 00:17:50,269 --> 00:17:51,870 And I remember my dad always showing us 427 00:17:51,870 --> 00:17:56,208 this photo of the time he got to meet Muhammad Ali. 428 00:17:56,208 --> 00:17:57,576 He was visiting. 429 00:17:57,576 --> 00:17:59,144 I don't know if he was fighting in New Jersey or what, 430 00:17:59,144 --> 00:18:00,979 but my dad was so young in this photo. 431 00:18:00,979 --> 00:18:04,716 And it was just, I think, 432 00:18:04,716 --> 00:18:07,052 this defining moment in his life, 433 00:18:07,052 --> 00:18:10,489 especially as someone who was new to the faith. 434 00:18:10,489 --> 00:18:13,692 And what I knew of Muhammad Ali growing up 435 00:18:13,692 --> 00:18:18,263 was so much about and so connected to his faith 436 00:18:19,231 --> 00:18:22,301 and him as an athlete. 437 00:18:22,301 --> 00:18:27,106 But what I didn't really, I think, come to realize 438 00:18:27,106 --> 00:18:31,076 until after I got to university 439 00:18:31,076 --> 00:18:33,212 was more so of his activism 440 00:18:33,212 --> 00:18:36,482 and him just being an advocate for humanity 441 00:18:36,482 --> 00:18:39,418 and for equity in this country, 442 00:18:39,418 --> 00:18:40,919 specifically for Black people. 443 00:18:40,919 --> 00:18:44,790 And that's always resonated so much with me 444 00:18:44,790 --> 00:18:47,126 and I feel like it really allowed me 445 00:18:47,126 --> 00:18:50,829 to lay this blueprint for what I wanted to do in sports, 446 00:18:50,829 --> 00:18:52,731 how I wanna show up in the world. 447 00:18:55,067 --> 00:18:57,236 It's hard to put into words 448 00:18:58,904 --> 00:19:01,974 what someone or a person that you've never met before... 449 00:19:03,375 --> 00:19:06,845 I was not fortunate enough to meet Muhammad Ali, 450 00:19:06,845 --> 00:19:08,347 allahumma, while he was here. 451 00:19:10,115 --> 00:19:11,984 I really feel like he changed my life 452 00:19:11,984 --> 00:19:13,819 in the way that I think about sport 453 00:19:13,819 --> 00:19:15,320 and the way that I show up in the world. 454 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,758 And so much of his path was rooted in Islam. 455 00:19:19,758 --> 00:19:22,861 And that's a way that I wanna show up in the world 456 00:19:22,861 --> 00:19:25,230 and a way that I wanna live my life as well. 457 00:19:26,498 --> 00:19:28,066 - I agree with you. 458 00:19:28,066 --> 00:19:30,302 I wish I truly had a chance to meet him, 459 00:19:30,302 --> 00:19:33,205 'cause he was such a fascinating, such a complex individual. 460 00:19:33,205 --> 00:19:35,941 I always knew about the boxing, but as I got older, 461 00:19:35,941 --> 00:19:37,976 I would come to learn about the different nuances 462 00:19:37,976 --> 00:19:40,445 and relationships in his life. 463 00:19:40,445 --> 00:19:42,014 And so, Professor Jackson, 464 00:19:42,014 --> 00:19:44,016 I wanna toss it to you on that. 465 00:19:44,016 --> 00:19:47,252 One of the most fascinating elements of Muhammad Ali's life 466 00:19:47,252 --> 00:19:50,589 was his brotherhood with the late Malcolm X. 467 00:19:50,589 --> 00:19:53,058 So my question to you is this, 468 00:19:53,058 --> 00:19:54,960 and the documentary does a really great job 469 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:56,361 of painting this picture, 470 00:19:56,361 --> 00:19:59,064 but how would you describe Ali's relationship 471 00:19:59,064 --> 00:20:00,499 with Elijah Muhammad 472 00:20:00,499 --> 00:20:03,368 in context with them falling out with Malcolm 473 00:20:03,368 --> 00:20:05,771 and how much did Malcolm's assassination 474 00:20:05,771 --> 00:20:07,539 impact Ali in his later years? 475 00:20:08,707 --> 00:20:11,577 - Wow, easy question. Thanks. 476 00:20:11,577 --> 00:20:15,380 (everyone laughing) 477 00:20:15,380 --> 00:20:17,216 Well, let me start by saying this. 478 00:20:18,650 --> 00:20:22,221 Any time you are put on the spot 479 00:20:22,221 --> 00:20:23,622 to comment about Muhammad Ali, 480 00:20:23,622 --> 00:20:27,125 it's very easy to get tongue-tied 481 00:20:27,125 --> 00:20:29,394 because the man is so huge 482 00:20:29,394 --> 00:20:32,664 that you're looking for words that will match 483 00:20:32,664 --> 00:20:36,435 the magnitude of his presence and impact. 484 00:20:36,435 --> 00:20:38,971 And that's just so very, very difficult to do. 485 00:20:40,572 --> 00:20:42,040 To my mind, 486 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,944 I think that Elijah Muhammad was a person 487 00:20:47,879 --> 00:20:52,150 who really contributed enormously to 488 00:20:53,619 --> 00:20:58,323 putting forth a redefinition of American Blackness, 489 00:20:58,323 --> 00:21:02,294 of really defining an alternative modality 490 00:21:02,294 --> 00:21:03,929 of being Black in America. 491 00:21:05,030 --> 00:21:08,967 A modality of Blackness that did not begin 492 00:21:08,967 --> 00:21:12,571 with the definitions of the dominant group of whites 493 00:21:12,571 --> 00:21:16,408 as the criterion for what was valuable, 494 00:21:16,408 --> 00:21:20,646 that Black people could determine for themselves 495 00:21:20,646 --> 00:21:23,048 what was good, what was bad, 496 00:21:23,048 --> 00:21:25,884 what was valuable, what was not valuable. 497 00:21:25,884 --> 00:21:27,986 And the dominant group of whites 498 00:21:27,986 --> 00:21:31,423 no longer sat in ultimate judgment of that. 499 00:21:31,423 --> 00:21:35,060 I think that Elijah Muhammad defined 500 00:21:35,060 --> 00:21:38,697 that alternative modality of American Blackness, 501 00:21:38,697 --> 00:21:42,801 but Muhammad Ali, I think more than anyone else, 502 00:21:42,801 --> 00:21:43,769 personified it. 503 00:21:45,270 --> 00:21:49,207 He is the one who gave it flesh, who gave it blood, 504 00:21:49,207 --> 00:21:50,809 who gave it a voice, 505 00:21:50,809 --> 00:21:55,514 who unleashed its power into the ether 506 00:21:55,514 --> 00:21:58,517 where everybody basically internalized it. 507 00:21:59,985 --> 00:22:04,356 And I think that human life is evolutionary by nature. 508 00:22:05,624 --> 00:22:07,326 None of us is the same person today 509 00:22:07,326 --> 00:22:09,361 that we were 10 years ago 510 00:22:09,361 --> 00:22:11,363 and certainly not 20 years ago. 511 00:22:11,363 --> 00:22:13,899 And I think that in his early years, 512 00:22:13,899 --> 00:22:16,201 his early relationship with Elijah Muhammad, 513 00:22:16,201 --> 00:22:19,204 for him, that was a way out. 514 00:22:19,204 --> 00:22:22,674 That was one of the things that helped him. 515 00:22:22,674 --> 00:22:24,176 You got to imagine this. 516 00:22:24,176 --> 00:22:26,745 One of the things that I marvel at in Muhammad Ali, 517 00:22:26,745 --> 00:22:31,750 22 years old, making some of the decisions he made, 518 00:22:32,918 --> 00:22:34,519 taking some of the stands that he made, 519 00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:38,390 and Elijah Muhammad was the basis 520 00:22:38,390 --> 00:22:41,860 upon which his new way of thinking 521 00:22:41,860 --> 00:22:45,664 allowed him to access those parts of himself 522 00:22:45,664 --> 00:22:47,766 that would enable him to take those stands. 523 00:22:47,766 --> 00:22:49,000 And so he was very loyal 524 00:22:50,502 --> 00:22:55,040 and he saw Elijah Muhammad as being a transformative figure, 525 00:22:56,241 --> 00:22:58,577 not simply for him as an individual 526 00:22:58,577 --> 00:23:00,946 but for Black people in America. 527 00:23:00,946 --> 00:23:03,215 And he didn't want to let that go. 528 00:23:04,416 --> 00:23:06,084 He later came to regret that 529 00:23:06,084 --> 00:23:11,022 and regret his relationship with Malcolm X 530 00:23:11,022 --> 00:23:12,224 as it had devolved. 531 00:23:13,825 --> 00:23:15,093 But you know, 532 00:23:15,093 --> 00:23:16,495 that's part of the evolution in life 533 00:23:16,495 --> 00:23:17,829 that we all go through. 534 00:23:17,829 --> 00:23:20,098 We all make decisions at one point 535 00:23:20,098 --> 00:23:21,533 that we see later on 536 00:23:21,533 --> 00:23:23,869 were not the decision that we would have made 537 00:23:23,869 --> 00:23:26,171 if we knew then what we know now. 538 00:23:27,572 --> 00:23:31,376 But I think that Muhammad Ali's personification, 539 00:23:31,376 --> 00:23:33,278 and I'm speaking here 540 00:23:33,278 --> 00:23:36,181 not as someone studying Muhammad Ali, 541 00:23:36,181 --> 00:23:40,318 but I'm thinking about myself as a child, as a teenager, 542 00:23:41,853 --> 00:23:46,458 and the things that Muhammad Ali did and said 543 00:23:46,458 --> 00:23:48,360 and how they impacted me 544 00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:52,464 in terms of my ability to imagine what I could be, 545 00:23:52,464 --> 00:23:53,999 not just professionally, 546 00:23:53,999 --> 00:23:56,568 but just in terms of being a man, 547 00:23:56,568 --> 00:23:59,271 being a Black person in America, 548 00:23:59,271 --> 00:24:04,176 having the ability to define my life, my circumstances 549 00:24:05,510 --> 00:24:07,846 for myself without having to seek permission 550 00:24:07,846 --> 00:24:09,915 from the dominant culture. 551 00:24:09,915 --> 00:24:11,183 - Absolutely. 552 00:24:11,183 --> 00:24:12,617 And you talk about the decisions that we make 553 00:24:12,617 --> 00:24:14,820 and how they impact our lives. 554 00:24:14,820 --> 00:24:16,588 I wanna go to this second clip. 555 00:24:16,588 --> 00:24:18,590 We're gonna watch a clip 556 00:24:18,590 --> 00:24:20,492 about the most controversial 557 00:24:20,492 --> 00:24:22,260 and pretty much landmark decision 558 00:24:22,260 --> 00:24:23,829 of Muhammad Ali's life. 559 00:24:23,829 --> 00:24:26,331 And Ken, to use a sports analogy, 560 00:24:26,331 --> 00:24:27,866 I'm gonna hand this off to you 561 00:24:27,866 --> 00:24:29,701 and let you tell us what we're gonna watch 562 00:24:29,701 --> 00:24:30,769 in this next clip. 563 00:24:30,769 --> 00:24:33,405 - Yeah, let me be pretty brief. 564 00:24:34,573 --> 00:24:36,508 He's really a divisive figure, 565 00:24:36,508 --> 00:24:39,678 as David Remnick suggests in the film, 566 00:24:39,678 --> 00:24:41,446 to that larger white world, 567 00:24:41,446 --> 00:24:43,615 and there's three strikes against him. 568 00:24:43,615 --> 00:24:47,352 First one is he's loud and he's proud and he's bragging 569 00:24:47,352 --> 00:24:50,489 and he's not behaving the way an athlete should. 570 00:24:50,489 --> 00:24:53,225 And he's certainly not behaving 571 00:24:53,225 --> 00:24:54,659 the way a Black athlete should. 572 00:24:54,659 --> 00:24:55,894 So that's strike one. 573 00:24:55,894 --> 00:24:58,163 Strike two is, after he defeats Sonny Liston, 574 00:24:59,364 --> 00:25:02,267 he announces that he's been a member 575 00:25:02,267 --> 00:25:03,568 of the Nation of Islam. 576 00:25:03,568 --> 00:25:05,103 Strike two. 577 00:25:05,103 --> 00:25:08,106 This has been labeled by the mainstream as a hate group. 578 00:25:08,106 --> 00:25:11,843 There's been take-downs of it and documentaries of it. 579 00:25:11,843 --> 00:25:15,714 And then he refuses induction into the US army. 580 00:25:15,714 --> 00:25:17,782 He's reclassified as 1A, 581 00:25:17,782 --> 00:25:19,584 he says he's not going. 582 00:25:19,584 --> 00:25:22,854 And a lot of his licenses are strip from various places, 583 00:25:22,854 --> 00:25:24,956 fights are postponed or moved around. 584 00:25:24,956 --> 00:25:27,626 He's basically being boxed into a corner. 585 00:25:27,626 --> 00:25:29,861 And then of course the United States government 586 00:25:29,861 --> 00:25:32,330 brings charges against him 587 00:25:32,330 --> 00:25:35,634 when he actually refuses physically the induction. 588 00:25:35,634 --> 00:25:37,936 And that's strike three. It's out. 589 00:25:37,936 --> 00:25:40,338 And so this is a clip from our second episode, 590 00:25:40,338 --> 00:25:45,343 that takes the story which exists on one level 591 00:25:46,211 --> 00:25:47,879 and puts it into another level 592 00:25:47,879 --> 00:25:49,748 courtesy of Professor Jackson, 593 00:25:51,182 --> 00:25:54,953 and I think just understanding what the stakes are at hand. 594 00:25:54,953 --> 00:25:57,656 So it's a very, very short clip. 595 00:25:57,656 --> 00:26:01,593 And I think it'll certainly give this distinguished panel 596 00:26:01,593 --> 00:26:03,828 a chance to respond. 597 00:26:03,828 --> 00:26:05,463 (crowd chattering) 598 00:26:05,463 --> 00:26:06,765 - [Narrator] Two weeks later, 599 00:26:06,765 --> 00:26:09,301 an all-white Houston jury found Ali guilty 600 00:26:09,301 --> 00:26:11,536 of refusing the draft. 601 00:26:11,536 --> 00:26:14,439 The judge, ignoring the more lenient recommendation 602 00:26:14,439 --> 00:26:15,907 of the prosecutor, 603 00:26:15,907 --> 00:26:18,243 sentenced him to the maximum: 604 00:26:18,243 --> 00:26:21,680 five years in prison and a $10,000 fine. 605 00:26:22,814 --> 00:26:25,383 And he would have to surrender his passport. 606 00:26:25,383 --> 00:26:26,751 (tense music) 607 00:26:26,751 --> 00:26:30,188 Ali's lawyers immediately filed an appeal, 608 00:26:30,188 --> 00:26:32,457 prepared to go all the way to the Supreme Court 609 00:26:32,457 --> 00:26:35,427 if necessary, a process that could take years, 610 00:26:36,695 --> 00:26:38,263 Ali remained free, 611 00:26:38,263 --> 00:26:41,633 but without his title or a license to box. 612 00:26:43,001 --> 00:26:45,437 He fully expected that he would one day 613 00:26:45,437 --> 00:26:47,372 go to jail for his beliefs. 614 00:26:48,506 --> 00:26:50,308 - We who are followers of Elijah Muhammad 615 00:26:50,308 --> 00:26:51,576 and the religion of Islam, 616 00:26:51,576 --> 00:26:54,045 we believe in obeying the laws of the land. 617 00:26:54,045 --> 00:26:56,581 We are taught to obey the laws of the land 618 00:26:56,581 --> 00:27:00,485 as long as it don't conflict with our religious beliefs. 619 00:27:00,485 --> 00:27:01,753 - [Reporter] Will you go into service as such? 620 00:27:01,753 --> 00:27:04,055 - This would be 1,000% against 621 00:27:04,055 --> 00:27:06,424 the teachings of the honorable Elijah Muhammad, 622 00:27:06,424 --> 00:27:08,660 the religion of Islam and the holy Quran, 623 00:27:08,660 --> 00:27:09,995 the holy book that we believe in. 624 00:27:09,995 --> 00:27:12,697 This would all be denouncing and defying 625 00:27:12,697 --> 00:27:14,099 everything that I stand for. 626 00:27:14,099 --> 00:27:15,767 - [Reporter] This would mean, of course, 627 00:27:15,767 --> 00:27:17,936 that you stand the chance of going to jail 628 00:27:17,936 --> 00:27:20,705 as a result of not going into service. 629 00:27:20,705 --> 00:27:22,040 - Well, whatever the punishment, 630 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:23,541 whatever the persecution is 631 00:27:23,541 --> 00:27:25,910 for standing up for my religious beliefs, 632 00:27:25,910 --> 00:27:28,813 even if it means facing machine gun fire that day, 633 00:27:28,813 --> 00:27:32,083 I will face it before denouncing Elijah Muhammad 634 00:27:32,083 --> 00:27:33,385 and the religion of Islam. 635 00:27:33,385 --> 00:27:34,619 I'm ready to die. 636 00:27:34,619 --> 00:27:36,721 (tense music) 637 00:27:36,721 --> 00:27:38,957 - When I think about him saying, 638 00:27:38,957 --> 00:27:42,594 "If they wanna put me before a firing squad tomorrow, 639 00:27:42,594 --> 00:27:45,196 I'm ready to die before I abandon my religion." 640 00:27:50,301 --> 00:27:51,136 That's it. 641 00:27:53,438 --> 00:27:56,641 You can't teach that kind of thing in lectures and books, 642 00:27:56,641 --> 00:27:59,277 that kind of thing has to be modeled. 643 00:27:59,277 --> 00:28:01,546 And models turn into traditions 644 00:28:01,546 --> 00:28:05,784 and traditions provide people with the mechanical memory 645 00:28:05,784 --> 00:28:06,885 to do the right thing. 646 00:28:08,286 --> 00:28:10,955 That's what Muhammad Ali represented in that moment. 647 00:28:12,090 --> 00:28:15,126 Anybody now faced with a major decision, 648 00:28:15,126 --> 00:28:16,861 and what's the right way is clear 649 00:28:16,861 --> 00:28:18,263 and the wrong way is clear, 650 00:28:18,263 --> 00:28:20,065 but the consequences are dire, 651 00:28:20,065 --> 00:28:23,234 now they have a model that they can fall back on 652 00:28:23,234 --> 00:28:25,670 psychologically, emotionally, spiritually. 653 00:28:25,670 --> 00:28:28,373 That's what Muhammad Ali represented in that moment. 654 00:28:28,373 --> 00:28:31,509 And to me, that moment will live on forever. 655 00:28:39,417 --> 00:28:41,419 - That right there, listen, 656 00:28:41,419 --> 00:28:46,424 that part gives me chills every time I hear it. 657 00:28:47,792 --> 00:28:48,960 Hearing Ali and then hearing Professor Jackson 658 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:50,562 back to back like that. 659 00:28:50,562 --> 00:28:52,664 I never heard that Ali quote before, 660 00:28:52,664 --> 00:28:54,332 and I thought I heard every Ali quote. 661 00:28:54,332 --> 00:28:56,034 And that's a great thing about this documentary, 662 00:28:56,034 --> 00:28:57,268 is that just when you think 663 00:28:57,268 --> 00:28:58,803 you know everything about this story, 664 00:28:58,803 --> 00:29:01,272 they come with a, pun intended, 665 00:29:01,272 --> 00:29:04,175 a left hook that catches you off guard. 666 00:29:04,175 --> 00:29:07,979 So I wanna start with Professor Jackson on this one. 667 00:29:09,447 --> 00:29:12,584 In 1967, Ali's boxing career is stripped away 668 00:29:12,584 --> 00:29:15,220 basically at the peak of his powers. 669 00:29:15,220 --> 00:29:16,688 And when you think about 670 00:29:16,688 --> 00:29:19,090 how Ali basically sacrificed that part of his career 671 00:29:19,090 --> 00:29:20,692 to not only stand in his beliefs, 672 00:29:20,692 --> 00:29:24,629 but also hold a mirror to society, 673 00:29:24,629 --> 00:29:26,931 what are some of the thoughts and emotions 674 00:29:26,931 --> 00:29:28,566 that come to mind when you realize, 675 00:29:28,566 --> 00:29:31,603 this guy really sacrificed the prime of his career, 676 00:29:31,603 --> 00:29:33,638 and then when you start piecing together 677 00:29:33,638 --> 00:29:35,106 the rest of his life, 678 00:29:35,106 --> 00:29:38,109 how much did America take away from Muhammad Ali 679 00:29:38,109 --> 00:29:39,544 when they made that decision? 680 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,618 - It's clear what was taken away from Muhammad Ali, 681 00:29:47,786 --> 00:29:51,156 but for me, the more important thing is 682 00:29:51,156 --> 00:29:54,559 what Muhammad Ali gave to America, 683 00:29:54,559 --> 00:29:57,195 gave to us all in that moment 684 00:29:57,195 --> 00:29:59,130 if we would but take it. 685 00:29:59,130 --> 00:30:03,268 When I look at that clip of his saying, 686 00:30:03,268 --> 00:30:08,206 "I'm ready to die," it says that 687 00:30:08,206 --> 00:30:11,309 we now don't have an excuse. 688 00:30:11,309 --> 00:30:13,311 Knowing the right thing 689 00:30:13,311 --> 00:30:16,581 and then fearing the consequences of doing the right thing 690 00:30:16,581 --> 00:30:20,385 and then to have those fears paralyze us 691 00:30:20,385 --> 00:30:23,254 to the point that we don't do the right thing. 692 00:30:23,254 --> 00:30:25,657 And I think that Muhammad Ali is an example 693 00:30:29,494 --> 00:30:30,962 that we need now 694 00:30:30,962 --> 00:30:32,697 perhaps more than any other time in our history, 695 00:30:34,098 --> 00:30:37,402 because people are seeing the right thing to do, 696 00:30:37,402 --> 00:30:39,470 they know the right thing to do, 697 00:30:39,470 --> 00:30:41,239 but the powers that be 698 00:30:41,239 --> 00:30:44,943 can incentivize and disincentivize in such a way 699 00:30:44,943 --> 00:30:46,978 that the right thing is never done. 700 00:30:46,978 --> 00:30:51,816 And what I meant by mechanical memory in that statement 701 00:30:51,816 --> 00:30:56,788 was that through models that inspire us 702 00:30:58,022 --> 00:31:01,893 and then inspire the population at large, 703 00:31:03,294 --> 00:31:06,764 we can go around all of those fears, 704 00:31:06,764 --> 00:31:09,400 all of that negative self-talk, 705 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,770 all of the direct and indirect threats 706 00:31:12,770 --> 00:31:15,406 that want to stop us from doing the right thing. 707 00:31:15,406 --> 00:31:18,042 We can go around all of that 708 00:31:18,042 --> 00:31:20,578 and we can invoke our mechanical memory 709 00:31:20,578 --> 00:31:23,882 by looking at what doing the right thing looks like 710 00:31:23,882 --> 00:31:25,583 and simply doing it. 711 00:31:25,583 --> 00:31:29,787 And in that way, we all become empowered as a society. 712 00:31:29,787 --> 00:31:31,155 And for that reason, 713 00:31:31,155 --> 00:31:34,826 I really hope that Muhammad Ali's legacy 714 00:31:34,826 --> 00:31:37,228 will not be lost on America. 715 00:31:37,228 --> 00:31:40,832 We don't have an excuse for not doing the right thing. 716 00:31:40,832 --> 00:31:42,533 - You hit the nail on the head with that. 717 00:31:42,533 --> 00:31:44,235 And I wanna go to Ibtihaj next, 718 00:31:44,235 --> 00:31:46,504 and feel free to respond to anything he just said. 719 00:31:46,504 --> 00:31:48,206 But I do have a question for you. 720 00:31:48,206 --> 00:31:49,807 Obviously you're an Olympic medalist, 721 00:31:49,807 --> 00:31:51,809 which means you're one of the greatest athletes 722 00:31:51,809 --> 00:31:53,044 in the world, 723 00:31:53,044 --> 00:31:54,712 but what was that process like for you? 724 00:31:54,712 --> 00:31:57,382 Understanding, "Hey, sports is more 725 00:31:57,382 --> 00:31:59,918 than what I just see in a box score," 726 00:31:59,918 --> 00:32:02,553 and what was the reaction towards you 727 00:32:02,553 --> 00:32:04,856 once you started to speak on these issues 728 00:32:04,856 --> 00:32:07,625 that were very personal towards you and your community? 729 00:32:09,460 --> 00:32:11,996 - I knew from a really early age 730 00:32:11,996 --> 00:32:15,500 that sports were just more than sports, 731 00:32:15,500 --> 00:32:18,970 that my hijab, my skin color, 732 00:32:18,970 --> 00:32:20,238 even at times my gender 733 00:32:20,238 --> 00:32:23,041 had the power to change how people treated me, 734 00:32:23,041 --> 00:32:26,010 and especially competing in a sport like fencing 735 00:32:26,010 --> 00:32:28,446 that historically is very white. 736 00:32:28,446 --> 00:32:31,516 There was a lot of pushback just in my existence, 737 00:32:31,516 --> 00:32:35,887 especially as an athlete who was good as a kid. 738 00:32:35,887 --> 00:32:37,322 There was a lot of pushback in me 739 00:32:37,322 --> 00:32:39,524 just trying to exist in sport. 740 00:32:39,524 --> 00:32:41,793 And you know, when you're really young, 741 00:32:41,793 --> 00:32:44,696 you're not thinking about politics. 742 00:32:44,696 --> 00:32:47,999 You're not thinking about religion, even. 743 00:32:47,999 --> 00:32:51,336 You're just trying to play the game. 744 00:32:51,336 --> 00:32:54,939 And I've always found it really perplexing 745 00:32:54,939 --> 00:32:59,344 how officials and parents of other athletes, 746 00:32:59,344 --> 00:33:00,778 and even sometimes other athletes 747 00:33:00,778 --> 00:33:04,749 can put their own biases, 748 00:33:04,749 --> 00:33:07,552 oftentimes implicit biases, onto you, 749 00:33:07,552 --> 00:33:10,154 and you as a young Black athlete, 750 00:33:10,154 --> 00:33:11,322 as a young Muslim athlete, 751 00:33:11,322 --> 00:33:14,859 have to carry that with you through sport. 752 00:33:14,859 --> 00:33:16,894 But one thing that I will say 753 00:33:16,894 --> 00:33:21,666 is that knowing my history as an African-American, 754 00:33:21,666 --> 00:33:26,671 and having such large, powerful sports figures in particular 755 00:33:28,473 --> 00:33:32,677 really lead the charge in forcing our society 756 00:33:34,545 --> 00:33:37,382 to change and become more equitable 757 00:33:37,382 --> 00:33:39,784 for people who look like me, 758 00:33:39,784 --> 00:33:44,789 allowed me to really navigate some difficult spaces 759 00:33:46,290 --> 00:33:49,660 in instances throughout my career as a kid 760 00:33:49,660 --> 00:33:52,663 but also in my professional career. 761 00:33:52,663 --> 00:33:55,700 I don't think I would've been able to do 762 00:33:55,700 --> 00:33:58,036 what I was able to do in sport 763 00:33:59,170 --> 00:34:00,738 and really transcends sport in a way, 764 00:34:00,738 --> 00:34:05,643 without having knowledge of these athletes before me, 765 00:34:05,643 --> 00:34:06,577 like Muhammad Ali. 766 00:34:06,577 --> 00:34:07,979 And I know I've said this, 767 00:34:07,979 --> 00:34:09,914 and I could say it until I'm blue in the face, 768 00:34:09,914 --> 00:34:13,284 he really, honestly is a hero of mine. 769 00:34:13,284 --> 00:34:16,587 And just like you said, Justin, 770 00:34:16,587 --> 00:34:19,123 I'd never heard that quote of his before. 771 00:34:19,123 --> 00:34:21,125 And it makes me wonder 772 00:34:21,125 --> 00:34:25,997 if I'm willing to fall on the sword of faith 773 00:34:25,997 --> 00:34:29,000 in that same manner. 774 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,202 Are you willing to give up everything 775 00:34:31,202 --> 00:34:33,271 for the things that you believe in? 776 00:34:33,271 --> 00:34:37,875 And that's why I feel so strongly about using my platform, 777 00:34:37,875 --> 00:34:40,111 even coming from such a small sport, 778 00:34:40,111 --> 00:34:42,447 using this moment in time 779 00:34:42,447 --> 00:34:45,149 and having the opportunity to win an Olympic medal, 780 00:34:45,149 --> 00:34:47,552 using this in a meaningful way. 781 00:34:47,552 --> 00:34:50,321 We have this one shot at life 782 00:34:50,321 --> 00:34:53,057 and this one shot to get it right, 783 00:34:53,057 --> 00:34:56,294 and to do what we can to better our communities, 784 00:34:56,294 --> 00:34:58,429 whether it be local or global, 785 00:34:58,429 --> 00:35:00,565 and just try to make the world a better place. 786 00:35:00,565 --> 00:35:02,300 And I know that that sounds so difficult, 787 00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:05,770 but we see what Muhammad Ali was able to do 788 00:35:05,770 --> 00:35:07,071 with his time here on earth. 789 00:35:07,071 --> 00:35:10,808 And honestly, it's revolutionary, 790 00:35:10,808 --> 00:35:13,611 but it's so meaningful and so impactful in so many ways. 791 00:35:13,611 --> 00:35:15,680 And I agree with Dr. Jackson, 792 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,117 I pray that society doesn't forget 793 00:35:19,117 --> 00:35:21,085 all that he was able to do in his life 794 00:35:21,085 --> 00:35:24,655 and really use that as motivation and encouragement for us 795 00:35:24,655 --> 00:35:26,791 to do the same thing with ours. 796 00:35:26,791 --> 00:35:27,725 - Absolutely. 797 00:35:27,725 --> 00:35:29,260 You speak about Muhammad Ali 798 00:35:29,260 --> 00:35:32,930 being a hero to many, including us. 799 00:35:32,930 --> 00:35:34,365 I do have to say, 800 00:35:34,365 --> 00:35:36,234 and I have to use a personal story at this moment. 801 00:35:36,234 --> 00:35:37,502 I do have to say, 802 00:35:37,502 --> 00:35:39,737 you are a hero to my younger cousin. 803 00:35:39,737 --> 00:35:42,340 She saw you in the 2016 Olympics 804 00:35:42,340 --> 00:35:43,641 and she was just floored. 805 00:35:43,641 --> 00:35:45,476 And she was like, "We can do that?" 806 00:35:45,476 --> 00:35:47,678 And I'm like, "Yeah, of course." 807 00:35:47,678 --> 00:35:50,515 And just your representation and your presence alone, 808 00:35:50,515 --> 00:35:53,151 it allowed myself and my other family members 809 00:35:53,151 --> 00:35:56,654 to just have these really fascinating conversations. 810 00:35:56,654 --> 00:35:58,890 You're not beholden by what 811 00:35:58,890 --> 00:36:01,893 stereotypes or society says you're only allowed to do. 812 00:36:01,893 --> 00:36:03,661 You can do whatever you damn well please. 813 00:36:03,661 --> 00:36:06,097 And you can be an Olympic athlete at it. 814 00:36:06,097 --> 00:36:09,133 So on behalf of my family, I do want to say, 815 00:36:09,133 --> 00:36:12,537 thank you for just being a light and a beacon 816 00:36:12,537 --> 00:36:15,573 and a force of representation. 817 00:36:15,573 --> 00:36:18,676 You're opening doors that you may not even realize 818 00:36:18,676 --> 00:36:20,111 that you open in your lifetime. 819 00:36:20,111 --> 00:36:21,379 So yes, 820 00:36:21,379 --> 00:36:23,981 you are a hero just like Muhammad Ali is as well. 821 00:36:23,981 --> 00:36:25,850 So we all got one life 822 00:36:25,850 --> 00:36:29,253 and you're doing a pretty damn good job at it so far. 823 00:36:29,253 --> 00:36:30,821 - Well, I really appreciate that. 824 00:36:30,821 --> 00:36:33,124 And I just have to say that I think that 825 00:36:33,124 --> 00:36:34,792 that unapologetic attitude, 826 00:36:34,792 --> 00:36:39,664 and just being unapologetically Muslim 827 00:36:39,664 --> 00:36:41,465 and unapologetically Black, 828 00:36:41,465 --> 00:36:42,900 so much of that, I think, 829 00:36:42,900 --> 00:36:46,470 comes from legacies like Muhammad Ali's legacy, 830 00:36:46,470 --> 00:36:48,940 and him just being almost defiant 831 00:36:50,074 --> 00:36:52,310 by society's standards and his Blackness 832 00:36:52,310 --> 00:36:54,078 and in his identity as a Muslim. 833 00:36:54,078 --> 00:36:57,448 And I feel like even unconsciously, 834 00:36:57,448 --> 00:37:00,785 so many of us have inherited that, 835 00:37:00,785 --> 00:37:03,154 that's why I'm so excited for this series 836 00:37:03,154 --> 00:37:05,022 and to watch it, because like you said, Justin, 837 00:37:05,022 --> 00:37:07,024 there's so many pieces of this puzzle 838 00:37:07,024 --> 00:37:08,893 that I'm not even familiar with, 839 00:37:08,893 --> 00:37:11,295 and I just look forward to learning more. 840 00:37:11,295 --> 00:37:12,663 - Absolutely. 841 00:37:12,663 --> 00:37:13,831 You're gonna be blown away, 842 00:37:13,831 --> 00:37:15,533 I can promise you that. 843 00:37:15,533 --> 00:37:16,767 And Ken, 844 00:37:16,767 --> 00:37:18,236 I wanna toss this question to you, 845 00:37:18,236 --> 00:37:20,671 just speaking about this episode in particular. 846 00:37:20,671 --> 00:37:24,675 I think one of the more fascinating subtleties 847 00:37:24,675 --> 00:37:25,943 that I saw in this episode 848 00:37:25,943 --> 00:37:28,946 were the clips of the Black Vietnam soldiers 849 00:37:28,946 --> 00:37:31,782 speaking out in support of Muhammad Ali. 850 00:37:31,782 --> 00:37:35,086 Why was this juxtaposition of Black men at war 851 00:37:35,086 --> 00:37:36,887 supporting another Black man who said, 852 00:37:36,887 --> 00:37:38,222 "I didn't wanna go to war" 853 00:37:38,222 --> 00:37:40,925 so important to be featured in this film? 854 00:37:40,925 --> 00:37:42,226 - I think it was important for us 855 00:37:42,226 --> 00:37:44,662 to try to represent in every way 856 00:37:46,063 --> 00:37:50,234 that Professor Jackson and Ms. Muhammad have said 857 00:37:50,234 --> 00:37:55,239 that he did and to be conscious of all of this stuff. 858 00:37:56,707 --> 00:38:00,711 So when he refuses induction into the United States Army, 859 00:38:02,146 --> 00:38:04,148 there are huge swaths, 860 00:38:04,148 --> 00:38:06,083 a majority of white people are opposed to this, 861 00:38:06,083 --> 00:38:07,985 but so are a lot of Black people. 862 00:38:07,985 --> 00:38:09,253 And we wanted to make sure 863 00:38:09,253 --> 00:38:11,589 that people in the Black community 864 00:38:11,589 --> 00:38:13,624 also saw this as a principled stand, 865 00:38:13,624 --> 00:38:14,925 just as people in the white community. 866 00:38:14,925 --> 00:38:16,761 I grew up on a college campus. 867 00:38:16,761 --> 00:38:18,863 When he said what he said about the Vietcong, 868 00:38:18,863 --> 00:38:20,865 my dad and I were opposed to the war, 869 00:38:20,865 --> 00:38:22,400 and we were thrilled by it. 870 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,903 He was and remained a hero from that. 871 00:38:25,903 --> 00:38:29,307 So it's never all one thing or all the other. 872 00:38:29,307 --> 00:38:30,808 And it's really important 873 00:38:30,808 --> 00:38:34,445 that we don't fall into those kinds of traps all the time. 874 00:38:34,445 --> 00:38:37,014 When you say you hadn't seen that bit of footage, 875 00:38:37,014 --> 00:38:38,215 of course you haven't, 876 00:38:38,215 --> 00:38:40,384 because we have certain conventional wisdoms 877 00:38:40,384 --> 00:38:42,787 and conventional ways of solving narrative 878 00:38:42,787 --> 00:38:44,055 about Muhammad Ali 879 00:38:44,055 --> 00:38:47,458 and the early period is this brash braggadocio, 880 00:38:47,458 --> 00:38:49,327 not the thoughtful person who's saying, 881 00:38:49,327 --> 00:38:50,895 "I know I'm here for a purpose," 882 00:38:50,895 --> 00:38:52,997 or "I'm willing to face machine gunfire." 883 00:38:52,997 --> 00:38:54,231 That's not that. 884 00:38:54,231 --> 00:38:55,800 There's another moment when the Supreme Court, 885 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,201 on a technicality, 886 00:38:57,201 --> 00:38:59,503 liberates him from his prison sentence 887 00:38:59,503 --> 00:39:02,206 and you'd expect him to be joyous 888 00:39:02,206 --> 00:39:04,542 and reciting poetry and being in your face 889 00:39:04,542 --> 00:39:07,211 and "I told you" and all of this, and he's not. 890 00:39:08,546 --> 00:39:10,948 When a reporter shoves a microphone in his face and says, 891 00:39:10,948 --> 00:39:12,483 "What do you think about the system?" 892 00:39:12,483 --> 00:39:13,751 He says, "Well, 893 00:39:13,751 --> 00:39:15,786 I don't know who's gonna be assassinated tonight. 894 00:39:15,786 --> 00:39:19,490 I don't know who's gonna be denied justice for equality." 895 00:39:19,490 --> 00:39:21,258 He's not thinking about himself. 896 00:39:21,258 --> 00:39:24,562 He's not thinking about this minor victory of his 897 00:39:24,562 --> 00:39:26,030 after having sacrificed 898 00:39:26,030 --> 00:39:29,033 the premiere period of his professional life. 899 00:39:29,033 --> 00:39:31,268 He's thinking about the whole 350 years 900 00:39:31,268 --> 00:39:33,471 of the treatment of Black people on this continent. 901 00:39:33,471 --> 00:39:34,805 He's thinking about Emmett Till, 902 00:39:34,805 --> 00:39:37,441 not much older than him, whose open casket 903 00:39:37,441 --> 00:39:41,579 his mother had the courage to show to the world 904 00:39:41,579 --> 00:39:43,114 and his father's frustrations, 905 00:39:43,114 --> 00:39:44,782 all the way back to 1619. 906 00:39:44,782 --> 00:39:47,518 And he's also ranging ahead, is he not, 907 00:39:47,518 --> 00:39:51,589 to people that we're gonna find out about. 908 00:39:51,589 --> 00:39:54,325 He's saying Rodney King, he's saying Trayvon Martin, 909 00:39:54,325 --> 00:39:57,328 he's saying Tamir Rice, a 12-year-old child, 910 00:39:57,328 --> 00:39:59,230 and Breonna Taylor and George Floyd. 911 00:39:59,230 --> 00:40:01,565 And unfortunately my list could go on 912 00:40:01,565 --> 00:40:03,134 for hundreds and hundreds of others. 913 00:40:03,134 --> 00:40:05,269 And yet he contained that in this moment. 914 00:40:05,269 --> 00:40:07,671 "Yeah, it's a victory for me, but," 915 00:40:07,671 --> 00:40:12,276 and that's where you see his immense power. 916 00:40:13,611 --> 00:40:15,346 When you said he was a superhero, 917 00:40:15,346 --> 00:40:17,214 it's so interesting that in response 918 00:40:17,214 --> 00:40:19,784 to the way he treated some of his opponents, 919 00:40:19,784 --> 00:40:21,952 particularly Joe Frazier, 920 00:40:21,952 --> 00:40:24,989 with the racist language of a bigot. 921 00:40:26,357 --> 00:40:28,459 Todd Boyd in the film says, 922 00:40:28,459 --> 00:40:32,463 "I just feel like he was using his powers for evil 923 00:40:32,463 --> 00:40:33,664 and not for good." 924 00:40:33,664 --> 00:40:37,134 And I just went, "Yeah, he's a superhero. 925 00:40:37,134 --> 00:40:38,402 That's who he is." 926 00:40:38,402 --> 00:40:42,373 No Marvel comic, no tired, worn plots 927 00:40:42,373 --> 00:40:45,676 and episode 27 of this series 928 00:40:45,676 --> 00:40:48,846 comes close to what a real superhero is. 929 00:40:48,846 --> 00:40:50,915 Who's willing to, as you both said, 930 00:40:50,915 --> 00:40:55,085 fall on his sword in support of his beliefs 931 00:40:55,085 --> 00:40:58,155 and to do what's right, Sherman, as you've said, 932 00:40:58,155 --> 00:41:00,891 and then all the other choices that he made, 933 00:41:00,891 --> 00:41:03,127 which were the more difficult path. 934 00:41:03,127 --> 00:41:06,997 And I just find the dimensions to Muhammad Ali 935 00:41:06,997 --> 00:41:10,434 are dimensions upon dimensions upon dimensions. 936 00:41:10,434 --> 00:41:14,171 And the fact that a hero has flaws is not surprising to me. 937 00:41:14,171 --> 00:41:15,906 That's the nature of heroism. 938 00:41:15,906 --> 00:41:20,010 The fact that he is a superhero with flaws, yes. 939 00:41:20,010 --> 00:41:21,979 Achilles had his heel and his hubris 940 00:41:21,979 --> 00:41:23,681 to go along with his great powers. 941 00:41:23,681 --> 00:41:25,783 Tell me something new, right? 942 00:41:25,783 --> 00:41:28,519 This is an extraordinary human being, 943 00:41:28,519 --> 00:41:30,621 one of the greatest human beings 944 00:41:30,621 --> 00:41:32,857 that's ever strode the planet. 945 00:41:32,857 --> 00:41:34,592 He happens to be a boxer. 946 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,129 It's so mesmerizing to me. 947 00:41:39,129 --> 00:41:41,165 And it was one of the great pleasures 948 00:41:41,165 --> 00:41:43,701 of my professional life to work with Sarah and Dave 949 00:41:43,701 --> 00:41:45,769 and the extraordinary team of editors 950 00:41:45,769 --> 00:41:47,338 watching the introduction, 951 00:41:47,338 --> 00:41:50,007 thinking of our editor of that episode, Kim Miille, 952 00:41:50,007 --> 00:41:52,676 and how extraordinary a talent she is 953 00:41:52,676 --> 00:41:56,714 to have put that opening together so well. 954 00:41:57,848 --> 00:41:59,984 It is one of the privileges of my life 955 00:41:59,984 --> 00:42:03,087 to be able to get to know this human being. 956 00:42:03,087 --> 00:42:04,522 - Absolutely. 957 00:42:04,522 --> 00:42:07,491 You all put together a career-defining body of work 958 00:42:07,491 --> 00:42:10,628 and something that will be a beautiful addition 959 00:42:10,628 --> 00:42:14,532 to an already worldwide legacy that is Muhammad Ali. 960 00:42:14,532 --> 00:42:17,635 But I wanna stick with religion for a little bit. 961 00:42:17,635 --> 00:42:21,005 Many detractors saw Ali's conversion to Islam 962 00:42:21,005 --> 00:42:22,239 as a means of division. 963 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,475 And even later, they saw it as a tool for him 964 00:42:24,475 --> 00:42:27,411 to avoid induction into the war. 965 00:42:27,411 --> 00:42:30,548 But Ali's relationship with his new religion, 966 00:42:30,548 --> 00:42:32,383 it was neither a publicity stunt 967 00:42:32,383 --> 00:42:34,151 or him following a trend. 968 00:42:34,151 --> 00:42:35,653 So Ken, 969 00:42:35,653 --> 00:42:38,322 what can we expect to see in this next clip right here? 970 00:42:38,322 --> 00:42:39,256 - I think that's important. 971 00:42:39,256 --> 00:42:41,959 This is a kind of dismount clip. 972 00:42:41,959 --> 00:42:43,894 One thing to understand is, 973 00:42:43,894 --> 00:42:47,331 this is from the fourth episode, towards the very end. 974 00:42:47,331 --> 00:42:50,134 And I think what we forget is that, 975 00:42:50,134 --> 00:42:52,836 of course, when he refuses induction, 976 00:42:52,836 --> 00:42:56,340 because he's a Black man and a Muslim, 977 00:42:56,340 --> 00:42:59,443 again, a couple of big strikes against him, 978 00:42:59,443 --> 00:43:02,713 his decision is seen as a political decision, as I said. 979 00:43:02,713 --> 00:43:04,582 It's not a faith-based decision. 980 00:43:04,582 --> 00:43:07,284 It's not a decision of conscience, 981 00:43:07,284 --> 00:43:09,086 of real meaning and purpose. 982 00:43:09,086 --> 00:43:12,256 It's relegated to the superficiality of politics, 983 00:43:12,256 --> 00:43:15,392 which is just a simple binary on-off switch. 984 00:43:15,392 --> 00:43:16,226 Good, bad. 985 00:43:16,226 --> 00:43:17,494 This was a bad thing. 986 00:43:17,494 --> 00:43:20,831 And they forgot to take him as the whole person 987 00:43:20,831 --> 00:43:24,034 and a person of faith and evolving faith, 988 00:43:24,034 --> 00:43:25,736 as Professor Jackson said. 989 00:43:25,736 --> 00:43:27,338 That's the thing that's amazing. 990 00:43:29,306 --> 00:43:32,443 There's a moment when Michael J. Fox, 991 00:43:32,443 --> 00:43:37,147 the Canadian actor who also has Parkinson's, 992 00:43:37,147 --> 00:43:39,249 said something that really influenced me. 993 00:43:39,249 --> 00:43:43,988 He said, "I couldn't be still until I couldn't be still." 994 00:43:45,155 --> 00:43:48,425 And I don't mean this to be misinterpreted 995 00:43:48,425 --> 00:43:50,894 because so many people fall into this trap 996 00:43:50,894 --> 00:43:54,999 that now that he can't speak, Muhammad Ali's safe, right? 997 00:43:54,999 --> 00:43:57,835 That's not what I'm trying to say. 998 00:43:57,835 --> 00:44:00,004 But this most voluble of human beings, 999 00:44:00,004 --> 00:44:03,207 this loud, wonderful human being 1000 00:44:03,207 --> 00:44:06,977 really spoke loudest when he could not speak 1001 00:44:06,977 --> 00:44:09,013 because he carried on, 1002 00:44:09,013 --> 00:44:12,216 and he carried on animated by a developing 1003 00:44:12,216 --> 00:44:15,819 and expansive and transcendent faith. 1004 00:44:15,819 --> 00:44:20,824 And so this is just from the last years of Muhammad Ali, 1005 00:44:21,959 --> 00:44:23,861 a very brief clip that we'd like to show, 1006 00:44:23,861 --> 00:44:26,096 the last of the clips this evening. 1007 00:44:26,096 --> 00:44:27,531 And thank you, Justin. 1008 00:44:27,531 --> 00:44:30,501 (gentle music) 1009 00:44:30,501 --> 00:44:31,835 - [Narrator] His devotion to Islam 1010 00:44:31,835 --> 00:44:34,905 increasingly shaped his daily routine. 1011 00:44:34,905 --> 00:44:38,609 He prayed five times each day facing Mecca, 1012 00:44:38,609 --> 00:44:42,446 called friends to discuss the differences between religions, 1013 00:44:42,446 --> 00:44:44,882 and distributed autographed pamphlets 1014 00:44:44,882 --> 00:44:46,917 that he hoped would help correct 1015 00:44:46,917 --> 00:44:49,253 common misperceptions about his faith. 1016 00:44:51,455 --> 00:44:53,657 When he traveled in the Muslim world, 1017 00:44:53,657 --> 00:44:57,261 massive crowds greeted him as Muhammad Ali Clay 1018 00:44:57,261 --> 00:44:58,962 to distinguish their hero 1019 00:44:58,962 --> 00:45:00,731 from thousands of faithful Muslims 1020 00:45:00,731 --> 00:45:02,766 also named Muhammad Ali. 1021 00:45:04,768 --> 00:45:08,372 During a goodwill visit to Pakistan in 1987, 1022 00:45:08,372 --> 00:45:13,143 Mohammed and Lonnie visited schools, hospitals, and mosques. 1023 00:45:13,143 --> 00:45:16,747 They delivered canned milk to an Afghan refugee camp 1024 00:45:16,747 --> 00:45:17,981 along the border 1025 00:45:17,981 --> 00:45:20,217 and encouraged guerrilla fighters there 1026 00:45:20,217 --> 00:45:21,618 in their long struggle 1027 00:45:21,618 --> 00:45:25,055 to evict the occupying Soviet army from Afghanistan. 1028 00:45:26,223 --> 00:45:28,592 - He needed love like he needed air to breathe. 1029 00:45:28,592 --> 00:45:30,427 So the people did probably more for him 1030 00:45:30,427 --> 00:45:31,361 than he did for them, 1031 00:45:31,361 --> 00:45:33,130 if not at least equal, you know? 1032 00:45:33,130 --> 00:45:35,432 So he was so grateful for the love they gave. 1033 00:45:35,432 --> 00:45:37,401 He was so grateful for that. 1034 00:45:37,401 --> 00:45:38,869 - [Narrator] In 1989, 1035 00:45:38,869 --> 00:45:41,138 he was on the road more than at home, 1036 00:45:41,138 --> 00:45:45,442 visiting England, Senegal, Switzerland, and Saudi Arabia. 1037 00:45:46,877 --> 00:45:49,480 In April, he and Lonnie made a pilgrimage to Mecca 1038 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,049 during the holy month of Ramadan. 1039 00:45:52,049 --> 00:45:57,054 Ali had visited Mecca before, in 1972, but now admitted 1040 00:45:58,388 --> 00:46:00,457 that he hadn't fully appreciated its significance 1041 00:46:00,457 --> 00:46:03,327 and acknowledged that his commitment to his religion 1042 00:46:03,327 --> 00:46:05,095 had long been imperfect. 1043 00:46:06,296 --> 00:46:09,066 "I fit my religion to do whatever I wanted." 1044 00:46:09,066 --> 00:46:13,303 I did things that were wrong and chased women all the time. 1045 00:46:13,303 --> 00:46:16,974 Everything I do now, I do to please Allah." 1046 00:46:18,142 --> 00:46:19,643 - One of my father's favorite sayings was, 1047 00:46:19,643 --> 00:46:21,712 "Rivers, lakes, and streams all have different names, 1048 00:46:21,712 --> 00:46:23,614 but they all contain water. 1049 00:46:23,614 --> 00:46:25,149 So do religions have different names, 1050 00:46:25,149 --> 00:46:26,550 but they all contain truth." 1051 00:46:27,918 --> 00:46:29,419 He always taught me that there's only one true religion 1052 00:46:29,419 --> 00:46:31,855 and that's the religion of the heart, he would say, 1053 00:46:31,855 --> 00:46:33,991 and as long as you do right, and you treat people right, 1054 00:46:33,991 --> 00:46:35,225 I believe you go to heaven 1055 00:46:35,225 --> 00:46:36,393 no matter what you call your religion. 1056 00:46:39,096 --> 00:46:41,165 - You know, Dr. Jackson, 1057 00:46:41,165 --> 00:46:42,833 I wanna start with you 1058 00:46:42,833 --> 00:46:45,135 because it was mentioned in the clip 1059 00:46:45,135 --> 00:46:48,806 how Ali evolved and grew into his faith. 1060 00:46:48,806 --> 00:46:50,040 And I wanna talk about that 1061 00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,309 because I think that's a very fascinating topic 1062 00:46:52,309 --> 00:46:54,278 and a fascinating concept. 1063 00:46:54,278 --> 00:46:56,647 So just a broad question, 1064 00:46:56,647 --> 00:46:59,116 and feel free to take it wherever you need to. 1065 00:46:59,116 --> 00:47:02,386 What was that religious maturation process 1066 00:47:02,386 --> 00:47:04,121 for someone like Muhammad Ali, 1067 00:47:04,121 --> 00:47:06,723 who had experienced so much in his life 1068 00:47:06,723 --> 00:47:08,659 even before turning 30 years old? 1069 00:47:12,262 --> 00:47:14,932 - There's a real extent to which 1070 00:47:17,367 --> 00:47:22,372 a person is as good as they want to be. 1071 00:47:24,208 --> 00:47:25,275 By which I mean that 1072 00:47:26,376 --> 00:47:29,279 it is what a person aspires to be 1073 00:47:29,279 --> 00:47:32,282 that will determine the texture 1074 00:47:32,282 --> 00:47:34,151 and the thrust of their life. 1075 00:47:34,151 --> 00:47:38,522 And it's clear that from very early on, 1076 00:47:38,522 --> 00:47:41,625 Muhammad Ali was very sincere. 1077 00:47:43,060 --> 00:47:47,130 And as human beings, we are very complex entities. 1078 00:47:47,130 --> 00:47:48,765 The people we love the most 1079 00:47:49,967 --> 00:47:52,469 often turn out to be the people we hurt the most. 1080 00:47:52,469 --> 00:47:54,571 Life is just dualistic like that. 1081 00:47:56,306 --> 00:47:58,008 And so against some of our best wishes, 1082 00:47:58,008 --> 00:47:59,643 our best intentions, 1083 00:47:59,643 --> 00:48:01,478 the best that we hope to be, 1084 00:48:01,478 --> 00:48:05,916 we don't always find the ability to live up to that. 1085 00:48:05,916 --> 00:48:07,985 And the mistake that many of us make, 1086 00:48:07,985 --> 00:48:11,955 and some of us are encouraged to make this mistake 1087 00:48:11,955 --> 00:48:15,392 by people who can only see life in black and white terms, 1088 00:48:15,392 --> 00:48:17,394 the mistake we make is that 1089 00:48:17,394 --> 00:48:21,498 because we're not able to live the perfect life, 1090 00:48:21,498 --> 00:48:24,902 we give up on trying to live the better life, 1091 00:48:24,902 --> 00:48:27,938 the life that improves year after year 1092 00:48:27,938 --> 00:48:30,240 and decade after decade. 1093 00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:32,576 And Muhammad Ali did not let go 1094 00:48:32,576 --> 00:48:35,045 of the person that he wanted to be, 1095 00:48:35,045 --> 00:48:37,781 the Muslim that he wanted to be. 1096 00:48:37,781 --> 00:48:41,718 And despite the fact that he did not often live up to that, 1097 00:48:41,718 --> 00:48:46,723 he continued to strive towards being that Muslim 1098 00:48:47,457 --> 00:48:48,659 that he wanted to be. 1099 00:48:50,427 --> 00:48:52,296 And that, to me, again, 1100 00:48:54,031 --> 00:48:57,301 that's a testament to his character. 1101 00:48:58,902 --> 00:48:59,736 I've always said, 1102 00:49:01,171 --> 00:49:04,274 Islam is a marathon. 1103 00:49:05,509 --> 00:49:06,743 It's not a sprint. 1104 00:49:06,743 --> 00:49:09,212 It's not something you go from 0 to 60 1105 00:49:09,212 --> 00:49:11,682 in whatever number of seconds, 1106 00:49:11,682 --> 00:49:16,119 it's something that you achieve over a lifetime. 1107 00:49:16,119 --> 00:49:19,589 And I think that it's really important 1108 00:49:19,589 --> 00:49:22,559 to remember those kinds of things about Muhammad Ali. 1109 00:49:22,559 --> 00:49:25,329 And let me just say one last thing here, 1110 00:49:25,329 --> 00:49:30,167 because people who may want to detract 1111 00:49:30,167 --> 00:49:33,937 from the religious value of Muhammad Ali's life 1112 00:49:33,937 --> 00:49:37,808 may often point to some of these indiscretions. 1113 00:49:39,209 --> 00:49:41,478 Well, let me share with you something 1114 00:49:41,478 --> 00:49:43,080 from Muslim tradition. 1115 00:49:45,148 --> 00:49:48,852 They came to one of the famous imams, 1116 00:49:48,852 --> 00:49:51,288 Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, who is the leader 1117 00:49:51,288 --> 00:49:54,958 of one of the four schools of Islamic thought, 1118 00:49:54,958 --> 00:49:57,194 considered to be one of the most stringent schools. 1119 00:49:57,194 --> 00:49:58,028 And they said, 1120 00:49:59,863 --> 00:50:03,734 "Who should we have to lead the army, 1121 00:50:05,035 --> 00:50:07,571 a pious person who is weak 1122 00:50:08,772 --> 00:50:11,708 or a person who's not so pious, but strong?" 1123 00:50:12,743 --> 00:50:14,144 And his answer was, 1124 00:50:15,679 --> 00:50:17,214 "The pious person 1125 00:50:19,016 --> 00:50:21,551 will benefit himself through his piety, 1126 00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,255 but we will suffer by his weakness. 1127 00:50:26,390 --> 00:50:28,558 And the impious person 1128 00:50:28,558 --> 00:50:31,695 may harm himself through his impiety, 1129 00:50:31,695 --> 00:50:35,799 but we will benefit from his courage." 1130 00:50:35,799 --> 00:50:37,634 And so I think we need to look at 1131 00:50:37,634 --> 00:50:42,606 what Muhammad Ali contributed to us as a society, right? 1132 00:50:43,507 --> 00:50:46,009 He really did do something 1133 00:50:46,009 --> 00:50:48,378 that I think we need to do a lot more of, 1134 00:50:48,378 --> 00:50:52,015 and that is to remind America of the fact 1135 00:50:52,015 --> 00:50:53,917 that it is not a place. 1136 00:50:53,917 --> 00:50:55,919 America is a project, 1137 00:50:55,919 --> 00:50:59,589 and it's a project that seeks to bring together people 1138 00:50:59,589 --> 00:51:01,992 from all over the planet 1139 00:51:01,992 --> 00:51:05,162 and to make a single political community 1140 00:51:05,162 --> 00:51:07,631 out of many peoples. 1141 00:51:07,631 --> 00:51:11,735 And so the idea that somehow he can't be American 1142 00:51:11,735 --> 00:51:13,303 because he's Muslim, 1143 00:51:13,303 --> 00:51:16,773 that's actually going in the opposite direction 1144 00:51:16,773 --> 00:51:18,642 of the American project. 1145 00:51:18,642 --> 00:51:22,946 And I think Muhammad Ali really did remind people of that, 1146 00:51:22,946 --> 00:51:25,182 and through the way he lived his life, 1147 00:51:25,182 --> 00:51:26,850 actually, in a sense, 1148 00:51:26,850 --> 00:51:29,019 move the needle in that regard 1149 00:51:29,019 --> 00:51:31,888 to the point that we can see an Ibtihaj Muhammad today. 1150 00:51:33,824 --> 00:51:35,725 - Muhammad Ali was as American as they come, 1151 00:51:35,725 --> 00:51:38,395 when you really break it down, as you just did. 1152 00:51:38,395 --> 00:51:39,329 And Ibtihaj, 1153 00:51:41,064 --> 00:51:43,166 I wanna toss this next question to you. 1154 00:51:43,166 --> 00:51:45,268 We got a little less than 10 minutes left. 1155 00:51:46,970 --> 00:51:48,472 When you just look at experiences 1156 00:51:48,472 --> 00:51:50,507 like what Muhammad Ali went through in his life, 1157 00:51:50,507 --> 00:51:52,776 what you've gone through in your life, 1158 00:51:52,776 --> 00:51:56,179 what do you think is still the biggest misconception 1159 00:51:56,179 --> 00:51:58,048 towards athletes and religion 1160 00:51:58,048 --> 00:52:00,117 that needs to be rectified moving forward? 1161 00:52:01,251 --> 00:52:02,419 - Well, first of all, 1162 00:52:02,419 --> 00:52:04,754 it's tough to follow Dr. Jackson. 1163 00:52:04,754 --> 00:52:07,991 That was tough. (laughing) 1164 00:52:11,061 --> 00:52:14,164 I think that Muhammad Ali really set the bar 1165 00:52:14,164 --> 00:52:18,602 when it comes to just learning 1166 00:52:18,602 --> 00:52:20,537 to lean into your identities, 1167 00:52:20,537 --> 00:52:25,542 but also leaning into being American. 1168 00:52:26,910 --> 00:52:31,148 I think that within the Black community specifically, 1169 00:52:32,315 --> 00:52:36,453 even, because we come from an enslaved people 1170 00:52:36,453 --> 00:52:40,857 there is this misconception 1171 00:52:40,857 --> 00:52:45,862 that there's no tie to America itself, 1172 00:52:46,930 --> 00:52:49,866 in a sense that there's almost a disdain 1173 00:52:49,866 --> 00:52:54,271 because our ancestors were brought here by force. 1174 00:52:54,271 --> 00:52:57,974 And what I love about Muhammad Ali's legacy 1175 00:52:58,909 --> 00:53:00,877 is that even though 1176 00:53:00,877 --> 00:53:03,613 his ancestors did not choose to come here 1177 00:53:03,613 --> 00:53:06,016 and were brought here on slave ships, 1178 00:53:06,016 --> 00:53:07,751 he still loved America, 1179 00:53:07,751 --> 00:53:11,721 even though he was forced to go to segregated schools, 1180 00:53:11,721 --> 00:53:16,426 through that, he still had love for his country. 1181 00:53:17,527 --> 00:53:19,329 And even though it seems, 1182 00:53:20,864 --> 00:53:24,634 during that time where he announced his conversion to Islam, 1183 00:53:24,634 --> 00:53:26,770 American society turned against him, 1184 00:53:26,770 --> 00:53:29,606 I feel like he still had a love for his country 1185 00:53:29,606 --> 00:53:34,611 even after he was convicted of draft dodging. 1186 00:53:36,012 --> 00:53:38,048 I just feel like through all those different moments, 1187 00:53:38,048 --> 00:53:40,083 he still showed a love for his country, 1188 00:53:40,083 --> 00:53:45,088 and he really showed us that you could be American 1189 00:53:46,223 --> 00:53:48,325 or that being Muslim was also being American 1190 00:53:48,325 --> 00:53:50,327 in this instance. 1191 00:53:50,327 --> 00:53:54,030 And even now today in 2021, 1192 00:53:54,030 --> 00:53:55,999 20 years after 9/11, 1193 00:53:55,999 --> 00:54:00,203 I still feel like Muslim Americans are fighting for 1194 00:54:00,203 --> 00:54:05,075 just that common understanding that we too are American. 1195 00:54:05,075 --> 00:54:07,143 And what I was able to just take away 1196 00:54:07,143 --> 00:54:08,645 from Muhammad Ali's career 1197 00:54:08,645 --> 00:54:10,180 is that I don't need anyone 1198 00:54:10,180 --> 00:54:12,649 to define what I am for me. 1199 00:54:12,649 --> 00:54:13,817 I know what I am. 1200 00:54:13,817 --> 00:54:15,919 I don't need anyone to define it. 1201 00:54:15,919 --> 00:54:18,188 I don't need a society 1202 00:54:18,188 --> 00:54:22,058 that is often rooted in white supremacy 1203 00:54:22,058 --> 00:54:27,063 to define what my ancestors built for free, 1204 00:54:30,500 --> 00:54:34,404 what my position on Team USA should look like. 1205 00:54:34,404 --> 00:54:36,273 I feel like those are all things 1206 00:54:36,273 --> 00:54:38,708 that I've been able to understand 1207 00:54:38,708 --> 00:54:42,579 through choosing to learn about American history, 1208 00:54:42,579 --> 00:54:45,815 through studying it in school, 1209 00:54:45,815 --> 00:54:48,585 through learning about it on my own. 1210 00:54:48,585 --> 00:54:51,187 Honestly, the public school system in the United States 1211 00:54:51,187 --> 00:54:53,623 fails most of us, if not all of us. 1212 00:54:54,991 --> 00:54:57,894 And we owe it to ourselves to really understand 1213 00:54:57,894 --> 00:54:59,562 how this country was built, 1214 00:54:59,562 --> 00:55:02,098 how it still impacts us today 1215 00:55:02,098 --> 00:55:04,668 and why we all need to do the work 1216 00:55:04,668 --> 00:55:07,871 to create a more equitable world for all of us. 1217 00:55:07,871 --> 00:55:10,140 And I feel like this is why 1218 00:55:10,140 --> 00:55:12,509 Muhammad Ali's life is so important, 1219 00:55:12,509 --> 00:55:16,780 in that he was able to blend so many different things, 1220 00:55:16,780 --> 00:55:21,785 whether it be sports and religion or even politics, 1221 00:55:23,086 --> 00:55:26,289 he was able to so seamlessly blend those things 1222 00:55:26,289 --> 00:55:29,225 in a way that made them palatable for people 1223 00:55:29,225 --> 00:55:31,761 to really get a true understanding 1224 00:55:31,761 --> 00:55:34,631 of what it means to be connected 1225 00:55:34,631 --> 00:55:36,700 along the lines of just being human 1226 00:55:37,834 --> 00:55:40,136 and being able to look past these things 1227 00:55:40,136 --> 00:55:43,106 that are social constructs. 1228 00:55:44,307 --> 00:55:47,610 - You mentioned what you learned in the classroom 1229 00:55:47,610 --> 00:55:50,714 and how that fails so many students each year. 1230 00:55:50,714 --> 00:55:54,250 This is a documentary that needs to be shown in classrooms. 1231 00:55:54,250 --> 00:55:59,255 This is an example of a true, in-depth education 1232 00:56:00,123 --> 00:56:01,925 of a world icon who impacted 1233 00:56:01,925 --> 00:56:03,860 so many pockets of everyday life. 1234 00:56:03,860 --> 00:56:06,796 - So PBS is the largest classroom in America 1235 00:56:06,796 --> 00:56:10,233 and our films play regularly in them 1236 00:56:10,233 --> 00:56:13,837 for 20, 30, 40 years. 1237 00:56:13,837 --> 00:56:15,038 They're evergreen. 1238 00:56:15,038 --> 00:56:17,774 And that's why I've stayed with PBS, 1239 00:56:17,774 --> 00:56:19,743 because of that ability 1240 00:56:19,743 --> 00:56:23,413 to intersect with the more pedagogical urgency 1241 00:56:23,413 --> 00:56:26,282 that Ms. Muhammad is talking about. 1242 00:56:26,282 --> 00:56:29,953 - That's a smart move. - (indistinct) Justin, 1243 00:56:31,054 --> 00:56:32,455 in relation to what I said before. 1244 00:56:32,455 --> 00:56:34,691 But I think that, especially in this moment 1245 00:56:34,691 --> 00:56:37,327 through which we are presently living as a country, 1246 00:56:37,327 --> 00:56:41,398 I think that what Muhammad Ali said to America, 1247 00:56:41,398 --> 00:56:43,366 and we need to be reminded of this, 1248 00:56:43,366 --> 00:56:48,371 is that America is not simply an extension of Europe, right? 1249 00:56:49,539 --> 00:56:51,374 We are not bound by a single history, 1250 00:56:51,374 --> 00:56:54,244 by a single blood, by a single race. 1251 00:56:54,244 --> 00:56:57,580 We are a collection of people from all over the world 1252 00:56:57,580 --> 00:57:00,917 who have constitutionally agreed to live together 1253 00:57:00,917 --> 00:57:02,752 and to work out the terms 1254 00:57:02,752 --> 00:57:05,188 upon which we are to live together. 1255 00:57:07,657 --> 00:57:11,561 And I think that going through the 21st century, 1256 00:57:11,561 --> 00:57:14,597 one of the lessons that America has to learn 1257 00:57:14,597 --> 00:57:16,966 as a part of the American project 1258 00:57:16,966 --> 00:57:21,204 is that we will not be able to see our way forward 1259 00:57:21,204 --> 00:57:25,975 forever relying exclusively on a European heritage. 1260 00:57:27,944 --> 00:57:30,213 - Let me add to Professor Jackson. 1261 00:57:30,213 --> 00:57:31,815 Let me add, if I could, Justin, 1262 00:57:31,815 --> 00:57:33,483 to what Professor Jackson just said. 1263 00:57:33,483 --> 00:57:38,488 I came across a quote from another holy man recently, 1264 00:57:39,355 --> 00:57:41,558 different religion, but he said, 1265 00:57:41,558 --> 00:57:43,393 "All life is interrelated. 1266 00:57:43,393 --> 00:57:44,961 All people are caught 1267 00:57:44,961 --> 00:57:47,864 in an inescapable network of mutuality, 1268 00:57:47,864 --> 00:57:50,733 tied in a single garment of destiny. 1269 00:57:50,733 --> 00:57:53,837 Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly. 1270 00:57:53,837 --> 00:57:55,872 I can never be what I ought to be 1271 00:57:55,872 --> 00:57:58,041 until you are what you ought to be. 1272 00:57:58,041 --> 00:58:00,076 And you can never be what you ought to be 1273 00:58:00,076 --> 00:58:02,412 until I am what I ought to be." 1274 00:58:02,412 --> 00:58:03,780 That was Dr. King. 1275 00:58:03,780 --> 00:58:07,617 And it's just an amazing, amazing quote 1276 00:58:07,617 --> 00:58:09,986 that speaks to exactly what Professor Jackson, 1277 00:58:09,986 --> 00:58:12,489 everybody, indeed, tonight, 1278 00:58:12,489 --> 00:58:13,923 but more importantly, 1279 00:58:13,923 --> 00:58:17,126 what Muhammad Ali was talking about all his life. 1280 00:58:17,126 --> 00:58:21,898 As much as he had joined a separatist religious cult, 1281 00:58:21,898 --> 00:58:25,502 he was always integrated with everyone in the world, 1282 00:58:25,502 --> 00:58:27,303 and saw no distinctions, 1283 00:58:27,303 --> 00:58:29,305 looked through the color of the skin, 1284 00:58:29,305 --> 00:58:32,976 looked through to who the person was, 1285 00:58:32,976 --> 00:58:35,278 and with extraordinary generosity. 1286 00:58:35,278 --> 00:58:36,613 We begin the film with the quote 1287 00:58:36,613 --> 00:58:38,515 that service to others is the rent you pay 1288 00:58:38,515 --> 00:58:39,649 for your room on earth. 1289 00:58:39,649 --> 00:58:41,851 What's on his gravestone is, 1290 00:58:41,851 --> 00:58:44,420 "Service to others is the rent you pay 1291 00:58:44,420 --> 00:58:45,655 for your room in heaven." 1292 00:58:45,655 --> 00:58:49,425 And we know how spacious that room is. 1293 00:58:49,425 --> 00:58:50,693 - Absolutely. 1294 00:58:50,693 --> 00:58:52,428 And I know we've got a few more minutes left 1295 00:58:52,428 --> 00:58:53,663 before we have to wrap it up. 1296 00:58:53,663 --> 00:58:55,765 I'm gonna pose this question to Ken, 1297 00:58:55,765 --> 00:58:57,734 but the entire panel, 1298 00:58:57,734 --> 00:59:01,504 feel free to jump in and express your thoughts. 1299 00:59:01,504 --> 00:59:02,739 It's so powerful to me 1300 00:59:02,739 --> 00:59:04,207 that we're having these conversations 1301 00:59:04,207 --> 00:59:07,143 on Muhammad Ali and race and religion, 1302 00:59:07,143 --> 00:59:09,579 coming off a year like 2020, 1303 00:59:09,579 --> 00:59:10,980 which we've already expressed 1304 00:59:10,980 --> 00:59:13,683 that the hurdles that we had to go through 1305 00:59:13,683 --> 00:59:15,184 to overcome that year 1306 00:59:15,184 --> 00:59:17,887 and hurdles that we're still having to overcome right now, 1307 00:59:17,887 --> 00:59:19,255 but it's also not lost on me 1308 00:59:19,255 --> 00:59:20,790 that we're having this conversation 1309 00:59:20,790 --> 00:59:25,395 some 48 hours before the 20th anniversary of September 11th. 1310 00:59:25,395 --> 00:59:27,630 And we can all remember how that tragedy 1311 00:59:27,630 --> 00:59:30,300 ignited so many uncomfortable conversations 1312 00:59:30,300 --> 00:59:31,301 around race and religion, 1313 00:59:31,301 --> 00:59:33,403 and so many of which were rooted 1314 00:59:33,403 --> 00:59:38,408 in grossly unfair stereotypes and images. 1315 00:59:39,542 --> 00:59:41,077 So when people watch this episode 1316 00:59:41,077 --> 00:59:43,413 when people watch this series, 1317 00:59:43,413 --> 00:59:45,415 what is the biggest takeaway? 1318 00:59:45,415 --> 00:59:46,950 Not just from Muhammad Ali, 1319 00:59:46,950 --> 00:59:49,652 but around race and religion as a whole, 1320 00:59:49,652 --> 00:59:52,121 that you hope viewers come to understand 1321 00:59:52,121 --> 00:59:53,990 and apply in their everyday life. 1322 00:59:55,358 --> 00:59:57,393 - Well, we don't want to say exactly 1323 00:59:57,393 --> 01:00:00,763 what everybody who watches the film should understand. 1324 01:00:00,763 --> 01:00:02,065 That would be terrible. 1325 01:00:02,065 --> 01:00:03,900 We've presented a complex narrative, 1326 01:00:03,900 --> 01:00:06,736 and we want very much for people to feel like 1327 01:00:06,736 --> 01:00:08,805 they can make up their own minds, 1328 01:00:08,805 --> 01:00:10,073 but it's really clear, 1329 01:00:10,073 --> 01:00:12,775 a story about freedom and courage and love, 1330 01:00:12,775 --> 01:00:14,711 it's a complicated dynamic, 1331 01:00:14,711 --> 01:00:16,546 ever shifting kind of thing 1332 01:00:16,546 --> 01:00:19,582 that the freedom for a Black person in America 1333 01:00:19,582 --> 01:00:21,517 to escape the specific gravity 1334 01:00:21,517 --> 01:00:23,252 of what keeps you from being free, 1335 01:00:23,252 --> 01:00:25,021 and Muhammad Ali was free, 1336 01:00:25,021 --> 01:00:26,623 are immense and challenging. 1337 01:00:26,623 --> 01:00:28,758 And we hope the film has done that. 1338 01:00:28,758 --> 01:00:30,760 A good deal of that freedom comes, 1339 01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:32,562 as I think we've talked about tonight, 1340 01:00:32,562 --> 01:00:34,097 through a spiritual path, 1341 01:00:34,097 --> 01:00:36,566 an evolving spiritual path. 1342 01:00:36,566 --> 01:00:39,102 That is important to know. 1343 01:00:39,102 --> 01:00:41,104 That it manifests in real conscience 1344 01:00:41,104 --> 01:00:42,572 and therefore courage 1345 01:00:42,572 --> 01:00:46,209 in the face of the momentum and norms of society. 1346 01:00:46,209 --> 01:00:50,513 And at the end, he dies the most beloved man on this planet. 1347 01:00:50,513 --> 01:00:53,282 And that's not for an accident. 1348 01:00:53,282 --> 01:00:56,419 That is because not only was he speaking to Black Americans, 1349 01:00:56,419 --> 01:00:58,354 he was speaking to people who were oppressed 1350 01:00:58,354 --> 01:00:59,188 across the world. 1351 01:00:59,188 --> 01:01:00,556 And when he said, 1352 01:01:00,556 --> 01:01:01,658 "I'm pretty as a girl and I'm attractive," 1353 01:01:01,658 --> 01:01:03,359 he's saying Black is beautiful, 1354 01:01:03,359 --> 01:01:06,029 but anyone who has felt the boot of the oppressor 1355 01:01:06,029 --> 01:01:11,034 can find, in my example, a foothold, some purchase 1356 01:01:12,201 --> 01:01:15,204 through which you can begin to sustain 1357 01:01:15,204 --> 01:01:18,141 your own sense of drive, your own sense, 1358 01:01:18,141 --> 01:01:20,410 as Ms. Muhammad was saying, of who you were. 1359 01:01:20,410 --> 01:01:23,012 And we stand on the shoulder of this giant, 1360 01:01:23,012 --> 01:01:25,148 whoever we are, wherever we are, 1361 01:01:25,148 --> 01:01:27,984 to be the kind of person that we ought to be, 1362 01:01:27,984 --> 01:01:30,053 knowing full well that that is, 1363 01:01:30,053 --> 01:01:31,454 as Dr. King said, 1364 01:01:31,454 --> 01:01:33,389 in relationship to everyone else's struggle. 1365 01:01:33,389 --> 01:01:35,258 And America, the project, 1366 01:01:35,258 --> 01:01:38,928 is about the realization of all of those things. 1367 01:01:38,928 --> 01:01:43,232 And so, we deal with 9/11 in the film 1368 01:01:43,232 --> 01:01:45,868 and I hope that people will watch it 1369 01:01:45,868 --> 01:01:48,738 because Muhammad Ali was courageous, of course, 1370 01:01:48,738 --> 01:01:51,307 in his commenting about it 1371 01:01:51,307 --> 01:01:52,542 and about the discrimination 1372 01:01:52,542 --> 01:01:54,977 that was taking place against people 1373 01:01:54,977 --> 01:01:58,147 simply because they were of the Muslim faith. 1374 01:01:58,147 --> 01:02:00,650 And I think this is it. 1375 01:02:00,650 --> 01:02:05,588 We have an ending comment by an extraordinary person, 1376 01:02:05,588 --> 01:02:07,390 Howard Bryant, in the film. 1377 01:02:07,390 --> 01:02:08,958 And in the middle of that, 1378 01:02:08,958 --> 01:02:10,460 towards the very end of the film, 1379 01:02:10,460 --> 01:02:13,162 we cut away from him and we go to the Brooklyn Bridge, 1380 01:02:13,162 --> 01:02:14,664 where a protest is taking place. 1381 01:02:14,664 --> 01:02:16,132 A still photograph. 1382 01:02:16,132 --> 01:02:19,702 And we deliberately don't tell you what the protest is, 1383 01:02:19,702 --> 01:02:22,705 but you can feel it, that you know what it's about. 1384 01:02:22,705 --> 01:02:25,074 And we're zooming in very softly 1385 01:02:25,074 --> 01:02:27,210 on a young Black woman 1386 01:02:27,210 --> 01:02:28,845 who has come to this demonstration 1387 01:02:28,845 --> 01:02:30,713 without a placard or anything, 1388 01:02:30,713 --> 01:02:33,716 is wearing a simple black T-shirt with white lettering. 1389 01:02:33,716 --> 01:02:36,652 And all it says is "Muhammad Ali." 1390 01:02:36,652 --> 01:02:41,457 So in 2020 or 2019, when this took place, 1391 01:02:41,457 --> 01:02:43,426 she felt that what she needed 1392 01:02:43,426 --> 01:02:48,064 to express her participation in this event 1393 01:02:48,064 --> 01:02:50,700 was a commitment to a human being 1394 01:02:50,700 --> 01:02:53,703 that was dedicated to freedom, courage, and love. 1395 01:02:53,703 --> 01:02:56,839 And that, at the end of the day, says it all, 1396 01:02:56,839 --> 01:03:01,744 and why he has to exist in the pantheon of all Americans, 1397 01:03:02,612 --> 01:03:04,480 up there with the greatest, 1398 01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:09,485 Louis Armstrong and Dr. King and Abraham Lincoln, 1399 01:03:11,554 --> 01:03:12,722 all of these people, 1400 01:03:12,722 --> 01:03:15,024 he co-exists on that level 1401 01:03:15,024 --> 01:03:19,529 because of the freedom he sought and achieved, 1402 01:03:19,529 --> 01:03:21,798 the courage that he exhibited throughout 1403 01:03:22,965 --> 01:03:26,369 and the love he was an apostle of. 1404 01:03:27,570 --> 01:03:29,138 There's a wonderful shot of him with the Beatles 1405 01:03:29,138 --> 01:03:31,040 in the Fifth Street gym as they're training. 1406 01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:35,444 And I'm thinking, these five men, only two survive. 1407 01:03:35,444 --> 01:03:37,446 Understood what one of the survivors, 1408 01:03:37,446 --> 01:03:38,314 Paul McCartney, said, 1409 01:03:38,314 --> 01:03:39,782 "And in the end, 1410 01:03:39,782 --> 01:03:42,018 the love you take is equal to the love you make." 1411 01:03:42,018 --> 01:03:44,086 We are looking at a human being 1412 01:03:44,086 --> 01:03:47,857 which was a manufacturing plant of love. 1413 01:03:48,791 --> 01:03:49,725 - Absolutely. 1414 01:03:49,725 --> 01:03:51,327 And I know we gotta wrap up, 1415 01:03:51,327 --> 01:03:54,030 but I just wanna thank all of the panelists. 1416 01:03:54,030 --> 01:03:57,266 I learned so much just in this discussion alone right here. 1417 01:03:57,266 --> 01:03:59,368 This was a true honor and privilege for me 1418 01:03:59,368 --> 01:04:03,105 to just be able to talk about a walking beacon of truth 1419 01:04:03,105 --> 01:04:04,373 that is Muhammad Ali. 1420 01:04:04,373 --> 01:04:06,342 Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow. 1421 01:04:06,342 --> 01:04:07,910 Sometimes the truth is complex. 1422 01:04:07,910 --> 01:04:10,012 Sometimes the truth can get it wrong, 1423 01:04:10,012 --> 01:04:11,814 but at the end of the day, the truth is right. 1424 01:04:11,814 --> 01:04:14,550 And he lived a life of purpose. 1425 01:04:14,550 --> 01:04:16,085 He lived a life of righteousness. 1426 01:04:16,085 --> 01:04:18,588 And again, it was just an honor and privilege 1427 01:04:18,588 --> 01:04:21,023 to be able to talk to all three of you about this. 1428 01:04:21,023 --> 01:04:22,925 And again, please watch this documentary 1429 01:04:22,925 --> 01:04:24,126 once it begins to air 1430 01:04:24,126 --> 01:04:27,396 on September 19th on PBS at 8:00 PM Eastern. 1431 01:04:28,831 --> 01:04:31,334 Any last thoughts, feel free to get them out here, 1432 01:04:31,334 --> 01:04:32,768 but just thank you all so much. 1433 01:04:32,768 --> 01:04:34,170 And thank you to everybody 1434 01:04:34,170 --> 01:04:36,138 who tuned into this event virtually. 1435 01:04:38,307 --> 01:04:40,243 On behalf of everybody, thank you. 1436 01:04:40,243 --> 01:04:41,177 - Thank you, Justin. 1437 01:04:41,177 --> 01:04:42,612 We're so pleased to be here. 1438 01:04:42,612 --> 01:04:43,946 Thank you. - Thank you. 1439 01:04:43,946 --> 01:04:45,882 - Thanks for having us.