- Good evening and
welcome to our third event

in our discussion series,
"Conversations on Muhammad Ali,"

presented by PBS and
ESPN's "The Undefeated."

I'm Sylvia Bugg, Chief
Programming Executive at PBS.

This September, PBS is
delighted to present

the latest from Ken
Burns, Sarah Burns,

David McMahon and their team,

a four-part documentary series

on the global
icon, Muhammad Ali.

Tonight, we continue
our examination

of the complex life
of one of America's

greatest figures of
the 20th century.

He entered the public arena
and was known as Cassius Clay,

but his Muslim faith and
loyalty to the Nation of Islam

inspired him to change
his name to Muhammad Ali.

Though he openly admitted
he was not perfect

at living out the tenets
of the Islamic faith,

the influence of the powerful
Nation of Islam leader,

Elijah Muhammad, and
his friend, Malcolm X,

deeply shaped his worldview,

which was not often understood

by the American
public at the time.

Tonight's discussion
will explore

the interwoven nature
of race and religion

in Muhammad Ali's own life

and its impact on sports,
society, and culture today.

Joining Ken Burns tonight
are Ibtihaj Muhammad,

Olympic medalist
and change agent,

Sherman Jackson,
King Faisal Chair

of Islamic Thought and Culture

at the University of
Southern California,

and Justin Tinsley,

ESPN and "The
Undefeated" senior writer

who will moderate
the conversation.

Before we begin
tonight's discussion,

let's take a look at the
introduction to the film.

Thank you for joining
us this evening

and don't forget to tune in

to the premiere
of "Muhammad Ali"

on September 19th at 8:00
PM Eastern time on PBS.

- You want some breakfast?
- I want some cornflakes.

- Can I have some
of your cornflakes?

Oh, I don't want none.

I won't take none,
I won't take none.

I won't eat none if
you don't want me to.

Ooh, look at that pretty horsey.

- Where?
- Is that a white horse?

See?

No, stand up, look over there.

Stand up, you gotta stand
up, over them hills.

See the big one, there he is.

(child gasping)

What?
(man laughing)

Where's the love?

(crowd cheering and chanting)

- My earliest memories
that I can think of

as a child with my father
are walking through airports

and being in crowds

and feeling the vibrations

of people's clapping
and shouts in my chest.

And just looking at
my dad, you know,

like, "Who is this person?"

And it was all the
time, anywhere we went.

"You're the greatest,
we love you!"

And the clapping and "Muhammad."

(Ali and crowd speaking
in foreign language)

- [Hana] I loved
feeling all the energy

and the love that he felt.

(crowd chanting)

- We now think of Muhammad
Ali as this vulnerable guy

lighting the torch in Atlanta

and everybody on
the globe loves him.

Black people like
him, white people,

he's a universal hero,

almost in a religious
way, like the Buddha,

but when he was in the
midst of his career,

and not just in the early bit,

he was incredibly divisive.

- Boo, yell, scream,
throw peanuts,

but whatever you
do, pay to get in.

- People hated him,

whether it was
along racial lines,

class lines, Vietnam lines,

political lines,
religious lines,

or they just couldn't stand him.

And people of course
said the opposite.

And this was, "I
loved him, loved him."

("Freedom" by Beyonce playing)

But he had an opinion about it.

- I ain't scared to do battle.

It would take a good man to
whoop me! You can look at me.

I'm more than just confident.

I can't be beat!

(indistinct)

And I'm pretty as hell.

Look how pretty I am.

(crowd laughing)

My honed, trimmed legs
and my beautiful arms

and my pretty nose and mouth.

I know I'm a pretty man.

I know I'm pretty.

You don't have to
tell me I'm pretty.

I'm cocky. I'm proud.

Never talk about
who's gonna stop me.

Ain't nobody gonna stop me!

I say what I wanna say.

Ain't no more big niggas
talking like this.

(dynamic music continuing)

- He was a pioneer. He
was a revolutionary.

He was a ground-breaker,

a guy known simply
as "the greatest."

- I am the greatest!

I've wrestled with alligators,

I've tussled with a whale,

I done handcuffed lighting

and put thunder in jail.

You know I'm bad.

I can drown the drink of water

and kill a dead tree.

This will be no contest!

Wait till you see Muhammad Ali.

- To have that chutzpah

and to be a Black man in America

was just outlandish.

- Muhammad means
"worthy of all praises"

and Ali means "most high."

And I just don't think
I should go 10,000 miles

and shoot some Black people

who never called me "nigger."

I just can't shoot 'em.

I always wondered why Miss
America was always white.

Santa Claus was white.

White Swan soap,
King White soap.

White Cloud tissue paper.

And everything bad was black.

Black cat was the bad luck.

And if I threaten you,

I'm gonna blackmail you.
(audience laughing)

I said, "Mama, why don't
they call it whitemail?

They lie too."

- I loved being around him.

I love being around
Muhammad Ali.

- [Ali] You gonna
float like a butterfly

and sting like a bee.

- Ah!
- Ah!

- Rumble, young man, rumble.

- Ah!
- Ah!

("Freedom" resuming)

- The price of
freedom comes high.

I have paid, but I am free.

♪ Freedom, freedom,
I can't move ♪

♪ Freedom, cut me loose ♪

♪ Freedom, freedom,
where are you ♪

♪ 'Cause I need freedom too ♪

♪ I break chains all by myself ♪

♪ Won't let my
freedom rot in hell ♪

♪ Hey ♪

♪ I'ma keep running ♪

♪ 'Cause a winner don't
quit on themselves ♪

(sound of blows landing)

(upbeat R&B music)

- [Narrator] He called
himself "the greatest"

and then proved it
to the entire world.

He was a master at what is
called the sweet science,

the brutal and sometimes
beautiful art of boxing.

Heavyweight champion
at just 22 years old,

he wrote his own rules in
the ring and in his life.

Infuriating his critics,
baffling his opponents,

and riveting millions of fans.

At the height of the
civil rights movement,

he joined a separatist
religious sect

whose leader would, for a time,

dominate both his personal life

and his boxing career.

He spoke his mind and
stood on principle,

even when it cost
him his livelihood.

He redefined Black manhood,

yet belittled his greatest rival

using the racist language
of the Jim Crow South

in which he had been raised.

Banished for his beliefs,

he returned to
boxing an underdog,

reclaimed his title twice

and became the most
famous man on earth.

He craved adulation
his whole life,

seeking crowds on
street corners,

in hotel lobbies,

on airport tarmacs
everywhere he went,

and reveled in the
uninhibited joy

he brought each adoring fan.

He earned a massive
fortune, spent it freely

and gave generously to family,
friends, even strangers,

anyone in need.

Service to others,
he often said,

is the rent you pay for
your room here on earth.

Even after his body
began to betray him

and his brain had
absorbed too many blows,

he fought on,

unable to go without
the attention and drama

that accompanied each bout.

Later, slowed and silenced

by a cruel and
crippling disease,

he found refuge in his faith,

becoming a symbol of peace
and hope on every continent.

Muhammad Ali was, the
novelist Norman Mailer wrote,

the very spirit of
the 20th century.

- I'm always gonna
be one Black one

who got big on your
white televisions,

on your white newspapers,
on your satellites,

million-dollar checks,

and still look you in your
face and tell you the truth

and 100% stay with and
represent my people

and not leave 'em and sell
'em out because I'm rich.

And stay with 'em,
that was my purpose.

I'm here and I'm
showing the world

that you can be
here and still free

and stay yourself

and get respect from the world.

(bell dinging)

- Good evening, everyone.

Good evening, everyone.

My name is Justin Tinsley,

a senior sports and
culture reporter

with ESPN's "The Undefeated,"

and to say I'm excited
for this evening's event

would be an understatement.

It would be like saying
Muhammad Ali was shy

and he bit his tongue and
he didn't wanna speak.

That just wouldn't be true.

But what is true is that
for the next hour or so,

we're gonna be
speaking about the man

who called himself
"the greatest"

even before he knew he was.

And that would be Muhammad
Ali, of course. (chuckling)

Now over the summer,
my colleagues,

Jesse Washington
and Lonnae O'Neill,

they've helped
moderate discussions

about this truly, truly, truly,

and I can't say this enough,

this truly phenomenal
documentary entitled
"Muhammad Ali"

which will be airing on
PBS on September 19th.

Now, I made a vow to myself

that I would do a lot more
listening than I would talking.

So I'm about to shut up,

but I'd like to introduce
our esteemed panel

for this discussion
today on Muhammad Ali,

race and religion

that's brought to you by
PBS and "The Undefeated."

Now, first up, I wanna
introduce the director,

Ken Burns.

He's the man behind some
of the most phenomenal

and thrilling documentaries
that you're ever gonna see

on topics like Jackie Robinson
or the Central Park Five

and the Vietnam War.

And for my book,

he's one of the best
storytellers of my lifetime.

I also wanna say that Sarah
Burns and David McMahon

were co-writers and
co-directors of this film.

So Ken, thank you so much for
having me be a part of this,

and thank you so much
for speaking for this.

- Justin, it's such a great
pleasure to be with you.

We're so grateful to
ESPN and "The Undefeated"

that we've been able
to have the third

of what will be
four conversations

about this extraordinary
human being, Muhammad Ali,

and on behalf of Sarah and Dave,

who are equally the co-directors

and they are the two writers,

so I'll be the flack, the
publicity guy for them tonight.

- I'd say you'd be
really good in that role.

Next up, I have the honor
and the true privilege

of introducing Ibtihaj Muhammad,

she's an Olympic
medalist in fencing,

and she became the
first Muslim woman

to wear a hijab
during the Olympics.

But I've been a big
fan of her for years,

and every interview I've seen
has just been a masterclass

in personality, nuance
and perspective.

And I'm not even saying this

'cause she's sitting
here right now,

but she's as deserving
of Time Magazine's

"100 most influential
people in the world"

as anybody that
you'll ever meet.

She's an author,
she's a change agent

and she's always
speaking truth to power.

Ibtihaj, thank you so
much for joining us.

- Thanks for having me.

- Absolutely.

And next up we have
Professor Sherman Jackson.

He's the King Faisal Chair

of Islamic thought
and culture at USC.

That's Southern California,
not South Carolina.

And he's been featured
in the Washington Post

and the Huffington Post.

And Dr. Jackson has
been listed as among

the 10 most foremost
experts on Islam in America.

And though he may not be able
to put this on his LinkedIn,

he's definitely one of my
favorite voices in this episode.

So Professor Jackson, thank
you so much for joining us.

- Thank you very
much for having me.

Thank you for the kind words.

- Oh, no. Look, the
pleasure is all mine.

Believe that.

So I wanna get right
into the discussion.

I wanna ask each
of you a question

before we keep moving on.

So Ken, I'll start with you.

Muhammad Ali, he's remembered
for a lot of things,

of course,

but his boxing career is perhaps
what he's most known for.

But this episode in particular,

it focuses on the role of
race and religion in his life.

And what makes that so important

when describing who
Muhammad Ali is,

aside from his boxing career,

and in some ways it may be
even more important than that.

- Thank you, Justin.

There's a really
wonderful moment

towards the end of the film,

the end of the fourth episode,

when one of his
daughters, Rashida,

pinches her fingers
together and said,

"Boxing was only this much."

Now, of course, this is
the story of a boxer,

that was his job,

but she's implying that it
could have been something else.

He could have been as simple
carpenter, for example.

And we know in history, the
fates of simple carpenters.

She was essentially alluding
to or reflecting back

on what our whole
effort has been,

which was to put him in
a much larger context

than the boxing world.

The context of
his personal life,

his birth in segregated Jim
Crow Louisville, Kentucky,

his childhood
there, good and bad.

Obviously the boxing part of it,

the political parts of it.

But really what we see is,
this is a journey of faith.

This is the awakening
of a young man

beset by the
indignities of Jim Crow

in the United States of America

and looking for
solutions and answers.

And he finds that in the
Nation of Islam and he grows.

And I think too often,

we talk about the Nation of
Islam as a political choice

and it's because
he's a Black man

saying no to the Vietnam War,

but it's more than that.

And it's evolving.

It's never constant,
it's never fixed.

And so I think that accompanying

all of the outer, more
familiar biographical stuff

is a much more
difficult to explicate

and contradictory at times
and controversial at times

adherence to the
faith of this cult,

which bears essentially
very little to Islam,

but is motivating him and
enlarging his understanding

so that by the end of his life,

it has reached
that kind of place.

I think it's central
to this story

and it's central to
understanding him.

He's crossing all
the intersections of
the late 20th century

with regard to sports, the
role of sports in society,

the role of Black athletes,

he's redefining Black manhood.

It's obviously intersecting
with the civil rights movement.

It's also about
politics and war.

And yet it's also about
faith and it's about Islam

and that's an important thing,

and I think a glue
that holds the larger,

more complex biography together.

And we were excited to be
able to try to integrate that

into this complicated narrative

about one of the most
spectacularly wonderful,

complicated humans,

as American as anybody
I've ever come across

in my 50 years of doing this.

Abraham Lincoln, Ida B. Wells,

Louis Armstrong,
Benjamin Franklin,

Franklin Roosevelt,
Eleanor Roosevelt,

Elizabeth Cady.

There's a handful of people

that just are
undeniably American

and what makes him so

is this complex story.

And at the heart of
this complex story

is, of course, punching
other people in a ring,

basically naked,

but it's also asking the
fundamental questions

of "What is my purpose
here on earth?"

And this young kid understood
very early on that he had.

And he says it,

when he's talking
about giving up boxing

before any of the troubles,

he says, "I know I'm
here for a purpose,"

which means it doesn't have
anything to do with boxing.

He is an apostle of love.

This is a story of freedom,

it's a story of courage
and it's a story of love.

- Absolutely.

And again, for
everyone watching,

this is a truly
phenomenal documentary.

I implore you to watch
this later this month

when it comes out.

But just sticking with
the totality of the man,

Ibtihaj, I wanna go to you next.

We're the same age,

we were born roughly
around the same time.

And my question for you is this.

Coming up, how was Muhammad
Ali described to you?

And as you got older,

what was the most surprising
or fascinating thing

that you came to understand
and learn about the man?

- Well, I have to say that

Ken, you are really
selling this series.

I can't wait to tune in
and watch with everyone.

Muhammad Ali is the greatest
sports figure of my life.

He's someone that
I've always looked to

as a source of light.

Growing up, I knew that he
was this professional boxer

and he was the
greatest of all time,

but this celebrated
sports figure,

I feel like in the Black
community and Muslim community,

he really was a superhero.

And my parents converted
to Islam in the '70s.

And I remember my
dad always showing us

this photo of the time he
got to meet Muhammad Ali.

He was visiting.

I don't know if he was
fighting in New Jersey or what,

but my dad was so
young in this photo.

And it was just, I think,

this defining
moment in his life,

especially as someone
who was new to the faith.

And what I knew of
Muhammad Ali growing up

was so much about and so
connected to his faith

and him as an athlete.

But what I didn't really,
I think, come to realize

until after I got to university

was more so of his activism

and him just being an
advocate for humanity

and for equity in this country,

specifically for Black people.

And that's always
resonated so much with me

and I feel like it
really allowed me

to lay this blueprint for
what I wanted to do in sports,

how I wanna show
up in the world.

It's hard to put into words

what someone or a person that
you've never met before...

I was not fortunate enough
to meet Muhammad Ali,

allahumma, while he was here.

I really feel like
he changed my life

in the way that I
think about sport

and the way that I
show up in the world.

And so much of his path
was rooted in Islam.

And that's a way that I
wanna show up in the world

and a way that I wanna
live my life as well.

- I agree with you.

I wish I truly had a
chance to meet him,

'cause he was such a
fascinating, such a
complex individual.

I always knew about the
boxing, but as I got older,

I would come to learn
about the different nuances

and relationships in his life.

And so, Professor Jackson,

I wanna toss it to you on that.

One of the most fascinating
elements of Muhammad Ali's life

was his brotherhood
with the late Malcolm X.

So my question to you is this,

and the documentary
does a really great job

of painting this picture,

but how would you describe
Ali's relationship

with Elijah Muhammad

in context with them
falling out with Malcolm

and how much did
Malcolm's assassination

impact Ali in his later years?

- Wow, easy question. Thanks.

(everyone laughing)

Well, let me start
by saying this.

Any time you are put on the spot

to comment about Muhammad Ali,

it's very easy to
get tongue-tied

because the man is so huge

that you're looking for
words that will match

the magnitude of his
presence and impact.

And that's just so very,
very difficult to do.

To my mind,

I think that Elijah
Muhammad was a person

who really contributed
enormously to

putting forth a redefinition
of American Blackness,

of really defining an
alternative modality

of being Black in America.

A modality of Blackness
that did not begin

with the definitions of the
dominant group of whites

as the criterion for
what was valuable,

that Black people could
determine for themselves

what was good, what was bad,

what was valuable,
what was not valuable.

And the dominant group of whites

no longer sat in ultimate
judgment of that.

I think that Elijah
Muhammad defined

that alternative modality
of American Blackness,

but Muhammad Ali, I think
more than anyone else,

personified it.

He is the one who gave it
flesh, who gave it blood,

who gave it a voice,

who unleashed its
power into the ether

where everybody basically
internalized it.

And I think that human life
is evolutionary by nature.

None of us is the
same person today

that we were 10 years ago

and certainly not 20 years ago.

And I think that
in his early years,

his early relationship
with Elijah Muhammad,

for him, that was a way out.

That was one of the
things that helped him.

You got to imagine this.

One of the things that I
marvel at in Muhammad Ali,

22 years old, making some
of the decisions he made,

taking some of the
stands that he made,

and Elijah Muhammad
was the basis

upon which his new
way of thinking

allowed him to access
those parts of himself

that would enable him
to take those stands.

And so he was very loyal

and he saw Elijah Muhammad as
being a transformative figure,

not simply for him
as an individual

but for Black people in America.

And he didn't want
to let that go.

He later came to regret that

and regret his
relationship with Malcolm X

as it had devolved.

But you know,

that's part of the
evolution in life

that we all go through.

We all make decisions
at one point

that we see later on

were not the decision
that we would have made

if we knew then
what we know now.

But I think that Muhammad
Ali's personification,

and I'm speaking here

not as someone
studying Muhammad Ali,

but I'm thinking about myself
as a child, as a teenager,

and the things that
Muhammad Ali did and said

and how they impacted me

in terms of my ability to
imagine what I could be,

not just professionally,

but just in terms
of being a man,

being a Black person in America,

having the ability to define
my life, my circumstances

for myself without
having to seek permission

from the dominant culture.

- Absolutely.

And you talk about the
decisions that we make

and how they impact our lives.

I wanna go to this second clip.

We're gonna watch a clip

about the most controversial

and pretty much
landmark decision

of Muhammad Ali's life.

And Ken, to use
a sports analogy,

I'm gonna hand this off to you

and let you tell us
what we're gonna watch

in this next clip.

- Yeah, let me be pretty brief.

He's really a divisive figure,

as David Remnick
suggests in the film,

to that larger white world,

and there's three
strikes against him.

First one is he's loud and
he's proud and he's bragging

and he's not behaving the
way an athlete should.

And he's certainly not behaving

the way a Black athlete should.

So that's strike one.

Strike two is, after he
defeats Sonny Liston,

he announces that
he's been a member

of the Nation of Islam.

Strike two.

This has been labeled by the
mainstream as a hate group.

There's been take-downs of
it and documentaries of it.

And then he refuses
induction into the US army.

He's reclassified as 1A,

he says he's not going.

And a lot of his licenses are
strip from various places,

fights are postponed
or moved around.

He's basically being
boxed into a corner.

And then of course the
United States government

brings charges against him

when he actually refuses
physically the induction.

And that's strike
three. It's out.

And so this is a clip
from our second episode,

that takes the story
which exists on one level

and puts it into another level

courtesy of Professor Jackson,

and I think just understanding
what the stakes are at hand.

So it's a very, very short clip.

And I think it'll certainly
give this distinguished panel

a chance to respond.

(crowd chattering)

- [Narrator] Two weeks later,

an all-white Houston
jury found Ali guilty

of refusing the draft.

The judge, ignoring the
more lenient recommendation

of the prosecutor,

sentenced him to the maximum:

five years in prison
and a $10,000 fine.

And he would have to
surrender his passport.

(tense music)

Ali's lawyers immediately
filed an appeal,

prepared to go all the
way to the Supreme Court

if necessary, a process
that could take years,

Ali remained free,

but without his title
or a license to box.

He fully expected
that he would one day

go to jail for his beliefs.

- We who are followers
of Elijah Muhammad

and the religion of Islam,

we believe in obeying
the laws of the land.

We are taught to obey
the laws of the land

as long as it don't conflict
with our religious beliefs.

- [Reporter] Will you
go into service as such?

- This would be 1,000% against

the teachings of the
honorable Elijah Muhammad,

the religion of Islam
and the holy Quran,

the holy book that
we believe in.

This would all be
denouncing and defying

everything that I stand for.

- [Reporter] This
would mean, of course,

that you stand the
chance of going to jail

as a result of not
going into service.

- Well, whatever the punishment,

whatever the persecution is

for standing up for
my religious beliefs,

even if it means facing
machine gun fire that day,

I will face it before
denouncing Elijah Muhammad

and the religion of Islam.

I'm ready to die.

(tense music)

- When I think about him saying,

"If they wanna put me before
a firing squad tomorrow,

I'm ready to die before
I abandon my religion."

That's it.

You can't teach that kind of
thing in lectures and books,

that kind of thing
has to be modeled.

And models turn into traditions

and traditions provide people
with the mechanical memory

to do the right thing.

That's what Muhammad Ali
represented in that moment.

Anybody now faced
with a major decision,

and what's the
right way is clear

and the wrong way is clear,

but the consequences are dire,

now they have a model
that they can fall back on

psychologically,
emotionally, spiritually.

That's what Muhammad Ali
represented in that moment.

And to me, that moment
will live on forever.

- That right there, listen,

that part gives me chills
every time I hear it.

Hearing Ali and then
hearing Professor Jackson

back to back like that.

I never heard that
Ali quote before,

and I thought I heard
every Ali quote.

And that's a great thing
about this documentary,

is that just when you think

you know everything
about this story,

they come with a, pun intended,

a left hook that
catches you off guard.

So I wanna start with
Professor Jackson on this one.

In 1967, Ali's boxing
career is stripped away

basically at the
peak of his powers.

And when you think about

how Ali basically sacrificed
that part of his career

to not only stand
in his beliefs,

but also hold a
mirror to society,

what are some of the
thoughts and emotions

that come to mind
when you realize,

this guy really sacrificed
the prime of his career,

and then when you
start piecing together

the rest of his life,

how much did America take
away from Muhammad Ali

when they made that decision?

- It's clear what was taken
away from Muhammad Ali,

but for me, the more
important thing is

what Muhammad Ali
gave to America,

gave to us all in that moment

if we would but take it.

When I look at that
clip of his saying,

"I'm ready to die," it says that

we now don't have an excuse.

Knowing the right thing

and then fearing
the consequences of
doing the right thing

and then to have those
fears paralyze us

to the point that we
don't do the right thing.

And I think that Muhammad
Ali is an example

that we need now

perhaps more than any
other time in our history,

because people are seeing
the right thing to do,

they know the right thing to do,

but the powers that be

can incentivize and
disincentivize in such a way

that the right
thing is never done.

And what I meant by mechanical
memory in that statement

was that through
models that inspire us

and then inspire the
population at large,

we can go around
all of those fears,

all of that negative self-talk,

all of the direct
and indirect threats

that want to stop us from
doing the right thing.

We can go around all of that

and we can invoke
our mechanical memory

by looking at what doing
the right thing looks like

and simply doing it.

And in that way, we all
become empowered as a society.

And for that reason,

I really hope that
Muhammad Ali's legacy

will not be lost on America.

We don't have an excuse for
not doing the right thing.

- You hit the nail on
the head with that.

And I wanna go to Ibtihaj next,

and feel free to respond
to anything he just said.

But I do have a
question for you.

Obviously you're an
Olympic medalist,

which means you're one
of the greatest athletes

in the world,

but what was that
process like for you?

Understanding,
"Hey, sports is more

than what I just
see in a box score,"

and what was the
reaction towards you

once you started to
speak on these issues

that were very personal
towards you and your community?

- I knew from a really early age

that sports were just
more than sports,

that my hijab, my skin color,

even at times my gender

had the power to change
how people treated me,

and especially competing
in a sport like fencing

that historically is very white.

There was a lot of pushback
just in my existence,

especially as an athlete
who was good as a kid.

There was a lot
of pushback in me

just trying to exist in sport.

And you know, when
you're really young,

you're not thinking
about politics.

You're not thinking
about religion, even.

You're just trying
to play the game.

And I've always found
it really perplexing

how officials and parents
of other athletes,

and even sometimes
other athletes

can put their own biases,

oftentimes implicit
biases, onto you,

and you as a young
Black athlete,

as a young Muslim athlete,

have to carry that
with you through sport.

But one thing that I will say

is that knowing my history
as an African-American,

and having such large, powerful
sports figures in particular

really lead the charge
in forcing our society

to change and become
more equitable

for people who look like me,

allowed me to really navigate
some difficult spaces

in instances throughout
my career as a kid

but also in my
professional career.

I don't think I
would've been able to do

what I was able to do in sport

and really transcends
sport in a way,

without having knowledge of
these athletes before me,

like Muhammad Ali.

And I know I've said this,

and I could say it until
I'm blue in the face,

he really, honestly
is a hero of mine.

And just like you said, Justin,

I'd never heard that
quote of his before.

And it makes me wonder

if I'm willing to fall
on the sword of faith

in that same manner.

Are you willing to
give up everything

for the things that
you believe in?

And that's why I feel
so strongly about
using my platform,

even coming from
such a small sport,

using this moment in time

and having the opportunity
to win an Olympic medal,

using this in a meaningful way.

We have this one shot at life

and this one shot
to get it right,

and to do what we can to
better our communities,

whether it be local or global,

and just try to make the
world a better place.

And I know that that
sounds so difficult,

but we see what Muhammad
Ali was able to do

with his time here on earth.

And honestly, it's
revolutionary,

but it's so meaningful and
so impactful in so many ways.

And I agree with Dr. Jackson,

I pray that society
doesn't forget

all that he was able
to do in his life

and really use that
as motivation and
encouragement for us

to do the same thing with ours.

- Absolutely.

You speak about Muhammad Ali

being a hero to
many, including us.

I do have to say,

and I have to use a personal
story at this moment.

I do have to say,

you are a hero to
my younger cousin.

She saw you in the 2016 Olympics

and she was just floored.

And she was like,
"We can do that?"

And I'm like, "Yeah, of course."

And just your representation
and your presence alone,

it allowed myself and
my other family members

to just have these really
fascinating conversations.

You're not beholden by what

stereotypes or society says
you're only allowed to do.

You can do whatever
you damn well please.

And you can be an
Olympic athlete at it.

So on behalf of my
family, I do want to say,

thank you for just being
a light and a beacon

and a force of representation.

You're opening doors that
you may not even realize

that you open in your lifetime.

So yes,

you are a hero just like
Muhammad Ali is as well.

So we all got one life

and you're doing a pretty
damn good job at it so far.

- Well, I really
appreciate that.

And I just have to
say that I think that

that unapologetic attitude,

and just being
unapologetically Muslim

and unapologetically Black,

so much of that, I think,

comes from legacies like
Muhammad Ali's legacy,

and him just being
almost defiant

by society's standards
and his Blackness

and in his identity as a Muslim.

And I feel like
even unconsciously,

so many of us have
inherited that,

that's why I'm so
excited for this series

and to watch it, because
like you said, Justin,

there's so many
pieces of this puzzle

that I'm not even familiar with,

and I just look forward
to learning more.

- Absolutely.

You're gonna be blown away,

I can promise you that.

And Ken,

I wanna toss this
question to you,

just speaking about this
episode in particular.

I think one of the more
fascinating subtleties

that I saw in this episode

were the clips of the
Black Vietnam soldiers

speaking out in support
of Muhammad Ali.

Why was this juxtaposition
of Black men at war

supporting another
Black man who said,

"I didn't wanna go to war"

so important to be
featured in this film?

- I think it was
important for us

to try to represent in every way

that Professor Jackson
and Ms. Muhammad have said

that he did and to be
conscious of all of this stuff.

So when he refuses induction
into the United States Army,

there are huge swaths,

a majority of white people
are opposed to this,

but so are a lot
of Black people.

And we wanted to make sure

that people in the
Black community

also saw this as a
principled stand,

just as people in
the white community.

I grew up on a college campus.

When he said what he
said about the Vietcong,

my dad and I were
opposed to the war,

and we were thrilled by it.

He was and remained
a hero from that.

So it's never all one
thing or all the other.

And it's really important

that we don't fall into those
kinds of traps all the time.

When you say you hadn't
seen that bit of footage,

of course you haven't,

because we have certain
conventional wisdoms

and conventional ways
of solving narrative

about Muhammad Ali

and the early period is
this brash braggadocio,

not the thoughtful
person who's saying,

"I know I'm here for a purpose,"

or "I'm willing to
face machine gunfire."

That's not that.

There's another moment
when the Supreme Court,

on a technicality,

liberates him from
his prison sentence

and you'd expect
him to be joyous

and reciting poetry
and being in your face

and "I told you" and all
of this, and he's not.

When a reporter shoves a
microphone in his face and says,

"What do you think
about the system?"

He says, "Well,

I don't know who's gonna
be assassinated tonight.

I don't know who's gonna be
denied justice for equality."

He's not thinking about himself.

He's not thinking about
this minor victory of his

after having sacrificed

the premiere period of
his professional life.

He's thinking about
the whole 350 years

of the treatment of Black
people on this continent.

He's thinking about Emmett Till,

not much older than
him, whose open casket

his mother had the courage
to show to the world

and his father's frustrations,

all the way back to 1619.

And he's also ranging
ahead, is he not,

to people that we're
gonna find out about.

He's saying Rodney King,
he's saying Trayvon Martin,

he's saying Tamir Rice,
a 12-year-old child,

and Breonna Taylor
and George Floyd.

And unfortunately
my list could go on

for hundreds and
hundreds of others.

And yet he contained
that in this moment.

"Yeah, it's a
victory for me, but,"

and that's where you
see his immense power.

When you said he
was a superhero,

it's so interesting
that in response

to the way he treated
some of his opponents,

particularly Joe Frazier,

with the racist
language of a bigot.

Todd Boyd in the film says,

"I just feel like he was
using his powers for evil

and not for good."

And I just went, "Yeah,
he's a superhero.

That's who he is."

No Marvel comic, no
tired, worn plots

and episode 27 of this series

comes close to what
a real superhero is.

Who's willing to,
as you both said,

fall on his sword in
support of his beliefs

and to do what's right,
Sherman, as you've said,

and then all the other
choices that he made,

which were the more
difficult path.

And I just find the
dimensions to Muhammad Ali

are dimensions upon
dimensions upon dimensions.

And the fact that a hero has
flaws is not surprising to me.

That's the nature of heroism.

The fact that he is a
superhero with flaws, yes.

Achilles had his
heel and his hubris

to go along with
his great powers.

Tell me something new, right?

This is an extraordinary
human being,

one of the greatest human beings

that's ever strode the planet.

He happens to be a boxer.

It's so mesmerizing to me.

And it was one of
the great pleasures

of my professional life to
work with Sarah and Dave

and the extraordinary
team of editors

watching the introduction,

thinking of our editor of
that episode, Kim Miille,

and how extraordinary
a talent she is

to have put that opening
together so well.

It is one of the
privileges of my life

to be able to get to
know this human being.

- Absolutely.

You all put together a
career-defining body of work

and something that will
be a beautiful addition

to an already worldwide
legacy that is Muhammad Ali.

But I wanna stick with
religion for a little bit.

Many detractors saw
Ali's conversion to Islam

as a means of division.

And even later, they
saw it as a tool for him

to avoid induction into the war.

But Ali's relationship
with his new religion,

it was neither a publicity stunt

or him following a trend.

So Ken,

what can we expect to see in
this next clip right here?

- I think that's important.

This is a kind of dismount clip.

One thing to understand is,

this is from the fourth
episode, towards the very end.

And I think what
we forget is that,

of course, when he
refuses induction,

because he's a Black
man and a Muslim,

again, a couple of big
strikes against him,

his decision is seen as a
political decision, as I said.

It's not a faith-based decision.

It's not a decision
of conscience,

of real meaning and purpose.

It's relegated to the
superficiality of politics,

which is just a simple
binary on-off switch.

Good, bad.

This was a bad thing.

And they forgot to take
him as the whole person

and a person of faith
and evolving faith,

as Professor Jackson said.

That's the thing that's amazing.

There's a moment
when Michael J. Fox,

the Canadian actor who
also has Parkinson's,

said something that
really influenced me.

He said, "I couldn't be still
until I couldn't be still."

And I don't mean this
to be misinterpreted

because so many people
fall into this trap

that now that he can't speak,
Muhammad Ali's safe, right?

That's not what
I'm trying to say.

But this most voluble
of human beings,

this loud, wonderful human being

really spoke loudest
when he could not speak

because he carried on,

and he carried on
animated by a developing

and expansive and
transcendent faith.

And so this is just from the
last years of Muhammad Ali,

a very brief clip that
we'd like to show,

the last of the
clips this evening.

And thank you, Justin.

(gentle music)

- [Narrator] His
devotion to Islam

increasingly shaped
his daily routine.

He prayed five times
each day facing Mecca,

called friends to discuss the
differences between religions,

and distributed
autographed pamphlets

that he hoped would help correct

common misperceptions
about his faith.

When he traveled in
the Muslim world,

massive crowds greeted
him as Muhammad Ali Clay

to distinguish their hero

from thousands of
faithful Muslims

also named Muhammad Ali.

During a goodwill visit
to Pakistan in 1987,

Mohammed and Lonnie visited
schools, hospitals, and mosques.

They delivered canned milk
to an Afghan refugee camp

along the border

and encouraged
guerrilla fighters there

in their long struggle

to evict the occupying
Soviet army from Afghanistan.

- He needed love like he
needed air to breathe.

So the people did
probably more for him

than he did for them,

if not at least equal, you know?

So he was so grateful
for the love they gave.

He was so grateful for that.

- [Narrator] In 1989,

he was on the road
more than at home,

visiting England, Senegal,
Switzerland, and Saudi Arabia.

In April, he and Lonnie
made a pilgrimage to Mecca

during the holy
month of Ramadan.

Ali had visited Mecca before,
in 1972, but now admitted

that he hadn't fully
appreciated its significance

and acknowledged that his
commitment to his religion

had long been imperfect.

"I fit my religion to
do whatever I wanted."

I did things that were wrong
and chased women all the time.

Everything I do now,
I do to please Allah."

- One of my father's
favorite sayings was,

"Rivers, lakes, and streams
all have different names,

but they all contain water.

So do religions have
different names,

but they all contain truth."

He always taught me that
there's only one true religion

and that's the religion of
the heart, he would say,

and as long as you do right,
and you treat people right,

I believe you go to heaven

no matter what you
call your religion.

- You know, Dr. Jackson,

I wanna start with you

because it was
mentioned in the clip

how Ali evolved and
grew into his faith.

And I wanna talk about that

because I think that's
a very fascinating topic

and a fascinating concept.

So just a broad question,

and feel free to take
it wherever you need to.

What was that religious
maturation process

for someone like Muhammad Ali,

who had experienced
so much in his life

even before turning
30 years old?

- There's a real extent to which

a person is as good
as they want to be.

By which I mean that

it is what a person
aspires to be

that will determine the texture

and the thrust of their life.

And it's clear that
from very early on,

Muhammad Ali was very sincere.

And as human beings, we
are very complex entities.

The people we love the most

often turn out to be the
people we hurt the most.

Life is just
dualistic like that.

And so against some
of our best wishes,

our best intentions,

the best that we hope to be,

we don't always find the
ability to live up to that.

And the mistake that
many of us make,

and some of us are encouraged
to make this mistake

by people who can only see
life in black and white terms,

the mistake we make is that

because we're not able
to live the perfect life,

we give up on trying to
live the better life,

the life that improves
year after year

and decade after decade.

And Muhammad Ali did not let go

of the person that
he wanted to be,

the Muslim that he wanted to be.

And despite the fact that he
did not often live up to that,

he continued to strive
towards being that Muslim

that he wanted to be.

And that, to me, again,

that's a testament
to his character.

I've always said,

Islam is a marathon.

It's not a sprint.

It's not something
you go from 0 to 60

in whatever number of seconds,

it's something that you
achieve over a lifetime.

And I think that
it's really important

to remember those kinds of
things about Muhammad Ali.

And let me just say
one last thing here,

because people who
may want to detract

from the religious value
of Muhammad Ali's life

may often point to some
of these indiscretions.

Well, let me share
with you something

from Muslim tradition.

They came to one of
the famous imams,

Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal,
who is the leader

of one of the four schools
of Islamic thought,

considered to be one of
the most stringent schools.

And they said,

"Who should we have
to lead the army,

a pious person who is weak

or a person who's not
so pious, but strong?"

And his answer was,

"The pious person

will benefit himself
through his piety,

but we will suffer
by his weakness.

And the impious person

may harm himself
through his impiety,

but we will benefit
from his courage."

And so I think we
need to look at

what Muhammad Ali contributed
to us as a society, right?

He really did do something

that I think we need
to do a lot more of,

and that is to remind
America of the fact

that it is not a place.

America is a project,

and it's a project that seeks
to bring together people

from all over the planet

and to make a single
political community

out of many peoples.

And so the idea that
somehow he can't be American

because he's Muslim,

that's actually going in
the opposite direction

of the American project.

And I think Muhammad Ali really
did remind people of that,

and through the way
he lived his life,

actually, in a sense,

move the needle in that regard

to the point that we can see
an Ibtihaj Muhammad today.

- Muhammad Ali was as
American as they come,

when you really break it
down, as you just did.

And Ibtihaj,

I wanna toss this
next question to you.

We got a little less
than 10 minutes left.

When you just look
at experiences

like what Muhammad Ali
went through in his life,

what you've gone
through in your life,

what do you think is still
the biggest misconception

towards athletes and religion

that needs to be
rectified moving forward?

- Well, first of all,

it's tough to
follow Dr. Jackson.

That was tough. (laughing)

I think that Muhammad
Ali really set the bar

when it comes to just learning

to lean into your identities,

but also leaning
into being American.

I think that within the
Black community specifically,

even, because we come
from an enslaved people

there is this misconception

that there's no tie
to America itself,

in a sense that there's
almost a disdain

because our ancestors were
brought here by force.

And what I love about
Muhammad Ali's legacy

is that even though

his ancestors did not
choose to come here

and were brought
here on slave ships,

he still loved America,

even though he was forced
to go to segregated schools,

through that, he still
had love for his country.

And even though it seems,

during that time
where he announced his
conversion to Islam,

American society
turned against him,

I feel like he still had
a love for his country

even after he was
convicted of draft dodging.

I just feel like through
all those different moments,

he still showed a
love for his country,

and he really showed us
that you could be American

or that being Muslim
was also being American

in this instance.

And even now today in 2021,

20 years after 9/11,

I still feel like Muslim
Americans are fighting for

just that common understanding
that we too are American.

And what I was able
to just take away

from Muhammad Ali's career

is that I don't need anyone

to define what I am for me.

I know what I am.

I don't need anyone
to define it.

I don't need a society

that is often rooted
in white supremacy

to define what my
ancestors built for free,

what my position on Team
USA should look like.

I feel like those are all things

that I've been
able to understand

through choosing to learn
about American history,

through studying it in school,

through learning
about it on my own.

Honestly, the public school
system in the United States

fails most of us,
if not all of us.

And we owe it to ourselves
to really understand

how this country was built,

how it still impacts us today

and why we all
need to do the work

to create a more equitable
world for all of us.

And I feel like this is why

Muhammad Ali's life
is so important,

in that he was able to blend
so many different things,

whether it be sports and
religion or even politics,

he was able to so seamlessly
blend those things

in a way that made them
palatable for people

to really get a
true understanding

of what it means to be connected

along the lines of
just being human

and being able to
look past these things

that are social constructs.

- You mentioned what you
learned in the classroom

and how that fails so
many students each year.

This is a documentary that
needs to be shown in classrooms.

This is an example of a
true, in-depth education

of a world icon who impacted

so many pockets
of everyday life.

- So PBS is the largest
classroom in America

and our films play
regularly in them

for 20, 30, 40 years.

They're evergreen.

And that's why I've
stayed with PBS,

because of that ability

to intersect with the
more pedagogical urgency

that Ms. Muhammad
is talking about.

- That's a smart move.
- (indistinct) Justin,

in relation to
what I said before.

But I think that,
especially in this moment

through which we are
presently living as a country,

I think that what Muhammad
Ali said to America,

and we need to be
reminded of this,

is that America is not simply
an extension of Europe, right?

We are not bound by
a single history,

by a single blood,
by a single race.

We are a collection of people
from all over the world

who have constitutionally
agreed to live together

and to work out the terms

upon which we are
to live together.

And I think that going
through the 21st century,

one of the lessons that
America has to learn

as a part of the
American project

is that we will not be
able to see our way forward

forever relying exclusively
on a European heritage.

- Let me add to
Professor Jackson.

Let me add, if I could, Justin,

to what Professor
Jackson just said.

I came across a quote from
another holy man recently,

different religion, but he said,

"All life is interrelated.

All people are caught

in an inescapable
network of mutuality,

tied in a single
garment of destiny.

Whatever affects one directly
affects all indirectly.

I can never be
what I ought to be

until you are what
you ought to be.

And you can never be
what you ought to be

until I am what I ought to be."

That was Dr. King.

And it's just an
amazing, amazing quote

that speaks to exactly
what Professor Jackson,

everybody, indeed, tonight,

but more importantly,

what Muhammad Ali was
talking about all his life.

As much as he had joined a
separatist religious cult,

he was always integrated
with everyone in the world,

and saw no distinctions,

looked through the
color of the skin,

looked through to
who the person was,

and with extraordinary
generosity.

We begin the film with the quote

that service to others
is the rent you pay

for your room on earth.

What's on his gravestone is,

"Service to others
is the rent you pay

for your room in heaven."

And we know how
spacious that room is.

- Absolutely.

And I know we've got a
few more minutes left

before we have to wrap it up.

I'm gonna pose this
question to Ken,

but the entire panel,

feel free to jump in and
express your thoughts.

It's so powerful to me

that we're having
these conversations

on Muhammad Ali and
race and religion,

coming off a year like 2020,

which we've already expressed

that the hurdles that
we had to go through

to overcome that year

and hurdles that we're still
having to overcome right now,

but it's also not lost on me

that we're having
this conversation

some 48 hours before the 20th
anniversary of September 11th.

And we can all remember
how that tragedy

ignited so many
uncomfortable conversations

around race and religion,

and so many of which were rooted

in grossly unfair
stereotypes and images.

So when people
watch this episode

when people watch this series,

what is the biggest takeaway?

Not just from Muhammad Ali,

but around race and
religion as a whole,

that you hope viewers
come to understand

and apply in their
everyday life.

- Well, we don't
want to say exactly

what everybody who watches
the film should understand.

That would be terrible.

We've presented a
complex narrative,

and we want very much
for people to feel like

they can make up
their own minds,

but it's really clear,

a story about freedom
and courage and love,

it's a complicated dynamic,

ever shifting kind of thing

that the freedom for a
Black person in America

to escape the specific gravity

of what keeps you
from being free,

and Muhammad Ali was free,

are immense and challenging.

And we hope the
film has done that.

A good deal of
that freedom comes,

as I think we've
talked about tonight,

through a spiritual path,

an evolving spiritual path.

That is important to know.

That it manifests
in real conscience

and therefore courage

in the face of the momentum
and norms of society.

And at the end, he dies the
most beloved man on this planet.

And that's not for an accident.

That is because not only was
he speaking to Black Americans,

he was speaking to
people who were oppressed

across the world.

And when he said,

"I'm pretty as a girl
and I'm attractive,"

he's saying Black is beautiful,

but anyone who has felt
the boot of the oppressor

can find, in my example,
a foothold, some purchase

through which you
can begin to sustain

your own sense of
drive, your own sense,

as Ms. Muhammad was
saying, of who you were.

And we stand on the
shoulder of this giant,

whoever we are, wherever we are,

to be the kind of person
that we ought to be,

knowing full well that that is,

as Dr. King said,

in relationship to
everyone else's struggle.

And America, the project,

is about the realization
of all of those things.

And so, we deal with
9/11 in the film

and I hope that
people will watch it

because Muhammad Ali was
courageous, of course,

in his commenting about it

and about the discrimination

that was taking
place against people

simply because they were
of the Muslim faith.

And I think this is it.

We have an ending comment
by an extraordinary person,

Howard Bryant, in the film.

And in the middle of that,

towards the very
end of the film,

we cut away from him and we
go to the Brooklyn Bridge,

where a protest is taking place.

A still photograph.

And we deliberately don't
tell you what the protest is,

but you can feel it, that
you know what it's about.

And we're zooming in very softly

on a young Black woman

who has come to
this demonstration

without a placard or anything,

is wearing a simple black
T-shirt with white lettering.

And all it says
is "Muhammad Ali."

So in 2020 or 2019,
when this took place,

she felt that what she needed

to express her
participation in this event

was a commitment
to a human being

that was dedicated to
freedom, courage, and love.

And that, at the end of
the day, says it all,

and why he has to exist in
the pantheon of all Americans,

up there with the greatest,

Louis Armstrong and Dr.
King and Abraham Lincoln,

all of these people,

he co-exists on that level

because of the freedom
he sought and achieved,

the courage that he
exhibited throughout

and the love he
was an apostle of.

There's a wonderful shot
of him with the Beatles

in the Fifth Street gym
as they're training.

And I'm thinking, these
five men, only two survive.

Understood what one
of the survivors,

Paul McCartney, said,

"And in the end,

the love you take is equal
to the love you make."

We are looking at a human being

which was a manufacturing
plant of love.

- Absolutely.

And I know we gotta wrap up,

but I just wanna thank
all of the panelists.

I learned so much just in this
discussion alone right here.

This was a true honor
and privilege for me

to just be able to talk about
a walking beacon of truth

that is Muhammad Ali.

Sometimes the truth
is hard to swallow.

Sometimes the truth is complex.

Sometimes the truth
can get it wrong,

but at the end of the
day, the truth is right.

And he lived a life of purpose.

He lived a life
of righteousness.

And again, it was just
an honor and privilege

to be able to talk to all
three of you about this.

And again, please
watch this documentary

once it begins to air

on September 19th on
PBS at 8:00 PM Eastern.

Any last thoughts, feel
free to get them out here,

but just thank you all so much.

And thank you to everybody

who tuned into this
event virtually.

On behalf of
everybody, thank you.

- Thank you, Justin.

We're so pleased to be here.

Thank you.
- Thank you.

- Thanks for having us.