WEBVTT 00:01.634 --> 00:02.969 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Narrator] He was bigger than boxing. 00:02.969 --> 00:05.238 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - [Ali] I am the greatest. 00:05.238 --> 00:07.073 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Narrator] He was larger than life. 00:07.073 --> 00:09.342 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Man] His magnetism just was amazing. 00:09.342 --> 00:10.443 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Who is this guy? 00:10.443 --> 00:12.145 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - [Man] He was a revolutionary. 00:12.145 --> 00:13.880 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He was a groundbreaker. 00:13.880 --> 00:15.582 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And ain't nobody gonna stop me. 00:15.582 --> 00:17.751 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Narrator] Ken Burns captures an intimate story 00:17.751 --> 00:20.587 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of victory, defeat, and determination. 00:20.587 --> 00:22.455 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - The price of freedom comes high. 00:22.455 --> 00:23.556 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I have faith, 00:23.556 --> 00:24.924 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% but I am free. 00:24.924 --> 00:25.959 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - [Narrator] "Muhammad Ali," 00:25.959 --> 00:27.494 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% tune in or stream, 00:27.494 --> 00:30.530 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% start Sunday September 19th at 8/7 Central only on PBS. 00:32.465 --> 00:33.933 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Good evening, 00:33.933 --> 00:36.669 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and welcome to our second event in our discussion series, 00:36.669 --> 00:38.905 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "Conversations on Muhammad Ali," 00:38.905 --> 00:43.309 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% presented by PBS and ESPN's The Undefeated. 00:43.309 --> 00:44.611 align:left position:30% line:5% size:60% I'm Sylvia Bugg, 00:44.611 --> 00:47.714 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% Chief Programming Executive at PBS. 00:47.714 --> 00:50.517 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% 25 years ago today in Atlanta, 00:50.517 --> 00:52.085 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% an ailing Muhammad Ali, 00:52.085 --> 00:55.655 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who was physically suffering from Parkinson's disease, 00:55.655 --> 00:57.023 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% surprised the world 00:57.023 --> 01:00.026 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when he took the Olympic torch from Janet Evans, 01:00.026 --> 01:01.728 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% one of our guests this evening, 01:01.728 --> 01:03.997 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and lit the Olympic cauldron. 01:03.997 --> 01:06.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It was a historic moment. 01:06.433 --> 01:10.503 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Nearly 40 years earlier at the Rome Olympics in 1960, 01:10.503 --> 01:12.639 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Ali stepped onto the world stage, 01:12.639 --> 01:14.407 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% taking home the gold. 01:14.407 --> 01:18.711 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The 18-year-old Ali easily won all four of his fights. 01:18.711 --> 01:20.680 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He never left the world stage, 01:20.680 --> 01:23.550 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the topic of our conversation this evening. 01:23.550 --> 01:26.586 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Many of his fights took place in other countries: 01:26.586 --> 01:27.821 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% the UK, 01:27.821 --> 01:28.721 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Canada, 01:28.721 --> 01:29.689 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% West Germany, 01:29.689 --> 01:30.657 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Switzerland, 01:30.657 --> 01:31.558 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Japan, 01:31.558 --> 01:32.425 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Ireland, 01:32.425 --> 01:33.359 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Indonesia, 01:33.359 --> 01:34.227 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Zaire, 01:34.227 --> 01:35.228 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Malaysia, 01:35.228 --> 01:37.197 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% the Philippines, and the Bahamas. 01:37.197 --> 01:38.765 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% But even beyond boxing, 01:38.765 --> 01:41.167 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he was perhaps, during his long career, 01:41.167 --> 01:43.236 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the most famous American, 01:43.236 --> 01:45.438 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% drawing crowds wherever he traveled, 01:45.438 --> 01:49.109 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but equally, inspiring young people across borders. 01:49.109 --> 01:51.778 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And while Ali was an American through and through, 01:51.778 --> 01:54.981 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he was also international in perspective, 01:54.981 --> 01:58.618 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% recognizing and speaking about his bond to Africa 01:58.618 --> 02:00.620 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% as an African American. 02:00.620 --> 02:01.788 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Ali often said, 02:01.788 --> 02:03.289 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% "I am African." 02:03.289 --> 02:05.792 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Africa meant so much to him, 02:05.792 --> 02:07.360 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but as others have commented, 02:07.360 --> 02:10.330 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he meant even more to Africa. 02:10.330 --> 02:13.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This September, PBS is delighted to present 02:13.066 --> 02:16.302 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the latest from Ken Burns, Sarah Burns, 02:16.302 --> 02:18.037 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% David McMahon and their team, 02:18.037 --> 02:21.741 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a four-part documentary series on the global icon, 02:21.741 --> 02:23.676 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Muhammad Ali. 02:23.676 --> 02:26.045 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This series takes us deep into the life 02:26.045 --> 02:29.983 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of one of the most indelible figures of the 20th century, 02:29.983 --> 02:32.152 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% showing us the true nature of the man 02:32.152 --> 02:35.388 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who called himself "the greatest" and proved it. 02:35.388 --> 02:39.058 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The discussion will explore how Ali understood the world, 02:39.058 --> 02:41.461 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and how the world embraced him, 02:41.461 --> 02:43.696 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% leading up to that extraordinary moment 02:43.696 --> 02:45.899 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when the Olympic medalist, Janet Evans, 02:45.899 --> 02:50.003 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% handed him the torch in Atlanta in 1996. 02:50.003 --> 02:52.172 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Joining Janet Evans and Ken Burns 02:52.172 --> 02:53.940 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% are Dr. Todd Boyd, 02:53.940 --> 02:55.775 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% professor of race and culture 02:55.775 --> 02:58.611 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% at the University of Southern California, 02:58.611 --> 03:02.882 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and ESPN and The Undefeated senior writer, Lonnae O'Neal, 03:02.882 --> 03:05.818 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who will moderate this evening's conversation. 03:05.818 --> 03:07.287 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We will begin the discussion 03:07.287 --> 03:09.622 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with the introduction to the film. 03:09.622 --> 03:11.658 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Thank you for joining us this evening, 03:11.658 --> 03:16.129 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and don't forget to tune into the premiere of "Muhammad Ali" 03:16.129 --> 03:21.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% on September 19th at 8:00 pm Eastern time on PBS. 03:24.604 --> 03:26.072 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Muhammad] You want some breakfast? 03:26.072 --> 03:29.242 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Child] I want some Corn Flakes. 03:29.242 --> 03:31.711 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Can I have some of your Corn Flakes? 03:31.711 --> 03:32.979 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Oh, I don't want none. 03:32.979 --> 03:34.581 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I won't take none, I won't take none. 03:35.748 --> 03:37.317 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I won't eat none if you don't want me to. 03:37.317 --> 03:38.851 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Ooh, look at that pretty horsey! 03:38.851 --> 03:40.720 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Where? - Is that a white horse? 03:40.720 --> 03:41.654 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% See? 03:41.654 --> 03:42.589 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Now, stand up, look over there. 03:42.589 --> 03:44.090 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Stand up, you gotta stand up. 03:44.090 --> 03:45.291 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Over that building. 03:45.291 --> 03:47.360 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% See the big, look, there he is! 03:47.360 --> 03:50.563 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (utensil clangs) 03:50.563 --> 03:51.397 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (hand slaps) 03:51.397 --> 03:52.332 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% What? 03:52.332 --> 03:53.166 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (man chuckles) 03:53.166 --> 03:54.067 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% What's wrong? 03:54.067 --> 03:56.603 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (crowd cheers) 03:58.204 --> 04:00.640 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - [Crowd] Ali! Ali! Ali! Ali! 04:02.242 --> 04:03.843 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - My earliest memories that I can think of 04:03.843 --> 04:05.345 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as a child with my father 04:05.345 --> 04:06.946 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% are walking through airports 04:06.946 --> 04:08.581 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and being in crowds, 04:08.581 --> 04:11.718 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and feeling in my, the vibrations of people's clapping 04:11.718 --> 04:13.886 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and shouts in my chest, 04:13.886 --> 04:15.154 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% and just looking at my dad, 04:15.154 --> 04:16.990 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% you know, like, who is this person? 04:16.990 --> 04:18.157 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (crowd cheers) 04:18.157 --> 04:20.760 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it was all the time, anywhere we went. 04:20.760 --> 04:21.995 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "You're the greatest, we love you!" 04:21.995 --> 04:24.030 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And the clapping, and, "Muhammad!" 04:24.030 --> 04:24.897 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - (speaks foreign language) 04:24.897 --> 04:25.932 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (crowd repeats) 04:25.932 --> 04:27.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% (speaks foreign language) 04:27.166 --> 04:28.601 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Hana] And I loved feeling all the energy 04:28.601 --> 04:29.669 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and the love that he felt. 04:29.669 --> 04:31.704 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (crowd chants) 04:31.704 --> 04:35.775 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - We now think of Muhammad Ali as this vulnerable guy 04:35.775 --> 04:37.443 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% lighting the torch in Atlanta, 04:37.443 --> 04:40.146 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and everybody on the globe loves him. 04:40.146 --> 04:42.081 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Black people like him, white people. 04:42.081 --> 04:43.449 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% He's a universal hero, 04:43.449 --> 04:45.852 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% like, but almost in a religious way, 04:45.852 --> 04:47.520 align:left position:30% line:5% size:60% like the Buddha, 04:47.520 --> 04:49.289 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but when he was in the midst of his career, 04:49.289 --> 04:50.723 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and not just in the early bit, 04:50.723 --> 04:53.192 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he was incredibly divisive. (crowd jeers) 04:53.192 --> 04:55.862 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Boo, yell and scream, throw peanuts, 04:55.862 --> 04:57.397 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but whatever you do, 04:57.397 --> 04:59.599 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% pay to get in. 04:59.599 --> 05:01.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - People hated him. 05:01.100 --> 05:02.302 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Whether it was along racial lines, 05:02.302 --> 05:03.136 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% class lines, 05:03.136 --> 05:03.970 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Vietnam lines, 05:03.970 --> 05:04.871 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% political lines, 05:04.871 --> 05:05.938 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% religious lines, 05:05.938 --> 05:07.373 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or they just couldn't stand him, 05:07.373 --> 05:08.541 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and people, of course, said the opposite, 05:08.541 --> 05:10.610 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and this was, "I loved him, loved him." 05:12.045 --> 05:14.280 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But you had an opinion about him. 05:14.280 --> 05:15.648 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (suspenseful music) 05:15.648 --> 05:17.016 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% (buzzer sounds) - What's my name, huh? 05:17.016 --> 05:17.850 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% What's my name? 05:17.850 --> 05:19.185 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He can't do battle! 05:19.185 --> 05:21.187 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's gonna take a good man to whup me! 05:21.187 --> 05:22.121 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% You can look at me, 05:22.121 --> 05:23.122 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I'm more than a confident. 05:23.122 --> 05:24.057 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I can't beat me. 05:24.057 --> 05:25.325 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I had 180 amateur fights, 05:25.325 --> 05:26.426 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% 22 professional fights, 05:26.426 --> 05:27.760 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and I'm pretty as a girl. 05:27.760 --> 05:29.262 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Look how pretty I am. 05:29.262 --> 05:31.264 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (crowd murmurs) 05:31.264 --> 05:33.232 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% My long, trim legs and my beautiful arms 05:33.232 --> 05:35.101 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and a pretty nose and mouth. 05:35.101 --> 05:36.336 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I know I'm a pretty man. 05:36.336 --> 05:37.570 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I know I'm pretty. 05:37.570 --> 05:39.138 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You don't have to tell me I'm pretty. 05:39.138 --> 05:40.640 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I'm cocky, I'm proud. 05:40.640 --> 05:42.642 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Never talk about who's gonna stop me, 05:42.642 --> 05:43.910 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% 'cause ain't nobody gonna stop me! 05:43.910 --> 05:45.311 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I say what I want to say. 05:45.311 --> 05:47.580 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Ain't no more big niggers talking like this. 05:47.580 --> 05:48.848 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (upbeat music) 05:48.848 --> 05:50.283 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - He was a pioneer. 05:50.283 --> 05:52.051 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He was a revolutionary. 05:52.051 --> 05:54.020 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He was a groundbreaker. 05:54.020 --> 05:58.091 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% A guy known simply as "The Greatest." 05:58.091 --> 06:00.193 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - I am the greatest! 06:00.193 --> 06:01.728 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I've wrastled with alligators, 06:01.728 --> 06:03.429 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I've tussled with a whale, 06:03.429 --> 06:06.599 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I done handcuffed lightning and put thunder in jail. 06:06.599 --> 06:07.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% You know I'm bad. 06:07.600 --> 06:09.235 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Back off of me, man. 06:09.235 --> 06:10.470 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Back off of me, man! 06:10.470 --> 06:12.105 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I can drown a drink of water 06:12.105 --> 06:13.573 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and kill a dead tree. 06:13.573 --> 06:15.341 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This will be no contest. 06:15.341 --> 06:17.777 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Wait 'til you see Muhammad Ali. 06:17.777 --> 06:19.011 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% ♪ I'm a wade, I'm a wave ♪ 06:19.011 --> 06:21.013 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - To tap that hutzpah, 06:21.013 --> 06:21.981 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% and to be a Black man in America 06:21.981 --> 06:24.417 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% was just, it was outlandish. 06:24.417 --> 06:25.551 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (crowd cheers) 06:25.551 --> 06:26.486 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Muhammad means "worthy of all praises," 06:26.486 --> 06:28.221 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and Ali means "most high." 06:28.221 --> 06:31.457 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I just don't think I should go 10,000 miles in there 06:31.457 --> 06:33.860 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and shoot some Black people that never called me nigger. 06:33.860 --> 06:35.395 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I just can't shoot 'em. 06:35.395 --> 06:37.397 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I always wondered why Miss America was always white. 06:37.397 --> 06:38.498 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Santa Claus was white. 06:38.498 --> 06:40.700 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% White Swan Soap, King White Soap, 06:40.700 --> 06:42.235 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% White Cloud tissue paper, 06:42.235 --> 06:43.936 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and everything bad was black. 06:43.936 --> 06:45.772 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Black cat was the bad luck, 06:45.772 --> 06:46.939 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and if I threaten you, 06:46.939 --> 06:48.441 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I'm gonna blackmail you. 06:48.441 --> 06:49.876 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience laughs) 06:49.876 --> 06:51.511 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "So Mama, why don't they call it whitemail? 06:51.511 --> 06:52.678 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% "They lie, too." 06:52.678 --> 06:54.046 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - I loved being around him. 06:54.046 --> 06:57.417 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% I loved being around Muhammad Ali. 06:57.417 --> 06:58.985 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Muhammad] You gonna float like a butterfly 06:58.985 --> 07:00.520 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and sting like a bee. 07:00.520 --> 07:01.888 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - [Both] Ahh! 07:01.888 --> 07:03.756 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Rumble, young man, rumble. 07:03.756 --> 07:05.024 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - [Both] Ahh! 07:05.024 --> 07:06.626 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Muhammad] The price of freedom runs high. 07:06.626 --> 07:08.961 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I have paid, but I am free. 07:08.961 --> 07:11.664 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% ♪ Freedom, freedom, I can't move ♪ 07:11.664 --> 07:13.332 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% ♪ Freedom, cut me loose ♪ 07:13.332 --> 07:14.667 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - [Announcer] The winner is, 07:14.667 --> 07:17.870 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and still heavyweight champion of the world! 07:17.870 --> 07:19.105 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience chants) 07:19.105 --> 07:22.341 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Muhammad] I'm the greatest of all time. 07:22.341 --> 07:23.376 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Of all time! 07:23.376 --> 07:25.144 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% ♪ Rot in hell ♪ 07:25.144 --> 07:27.513 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% ♪ Hey, I'ma keep running ♪ 07:27.513 --> 07:30.116 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% ♪ 'Cause a winner don't quit on themselves ♪ 07:30.116 --> 07:35.121 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% (upbeat music) (crowd roars) 07:35.855 --> 07:37.089 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (slow jazz music) 07:37.089 --> 07:38.925 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Narrator] He called himself "The Greatest," 07:38.925 --> 07:41.227 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and then proved it to the entire world. 07:42.695 --> 07:45.965 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He was a master at what is called the sweet science, 07:45.965 --> 07:49.001 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the brutal and sometimes beautiful art of boxing. 07:50.436 --> 07:53.139 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Heavyweight champion at just 22 years old, 07:53.139 --> 07:56.909 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he wrote his own rules in the ring and in his life, 07:56.909 --> 07:58.644 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% infuriating his critics, 07:58.644 --> 08:00.413 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% baffling his opponents, 08:00.413 --> 08:02.482 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and riveting millions of fans. 08:02.482 --> 08:04.283 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (slow jazz music) 08:04.283 --> 08:06.118 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% At the height of the civil rights movement, 08:06.118 --> 08:08.521 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he joined a separatist religious sect 08:08.521 --> 08:10.356 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% whose leader would, for a time, 08:10.356 --> 08:13.860 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% dominate both his personal life and his boxing career. 08:15.027 --> 08:17.797 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He spoke his mind and stood on principle, 08:17.797 --> 08:19.665 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% even when it cost him his livelihood. 08:21.267 --> 08:23.870 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He redefined Black manhood, 08:23.870 --> 08:25.805 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% yet belittled his greatest rival 08:25.805 --> 08:28.541 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% using the racist language of the Jim Crow South 08:28.541 --> 08:30.176 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in which he had been raised. 08:30.176 --> 08:31.878 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (crowd murmurs) 08:31.878 --> 08:33.346 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Banished for his beliefs, 08:33.346 --> 08:35.982 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he returned to boxing an underdog, 08:35.982 --> 08:38.384 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% reclaimed his title twice, 08:38.384 --> 08:40.686 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and became the most famous man on Earth. 08:42.622 --> 08:45.258 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He craved adulation his whole life, 08:45.258 --> 08:47.493 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% seeking crowds on street corners, 08:47.493 --> 08:49.161 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in hotel lobbies, 08:49.161 --> 08:51.097 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% on airport tarmacs, 08:51.097 --> 08:53.065 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% everywhere he went, 08:53.065 --> 08:55.668 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and reveled in the uninhibited joy 08:55.668 --> 08:57.770 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he brought each adoring fan. 08:57.770 --> 08:59.438 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (slow jazz music) 08:59.438 --> 09:01.507 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He earned a massive fortune, 09:01.507 --> 09:03.175 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% spent it freely, 09:03.175 --> 09:07.880 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and gave generously to family, friends, even strangers. 09:07.880 --> 09:09.015 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Anyone in need. 09:10.283 --> 09:12.518 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Service to others," he often said, 09:12.518 --> 09:15.988 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "is the rent you pay for your room here on Earth." 09:15.988 --> 09:17.623 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (slow jazz music) 09:17.623 --> 09:20.226 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Even after his body began to betray him 09:20.226 --> 09:22.995 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and his brain had absorbed too many blows, 09:22.995 --> 09:23.963 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% he fought on, 09:25.097 --> 09:27.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% unable to go without the attention and drama 09:27.366 --> 09:28.901 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that accompanied each bout. 09:28.901 --> 09:30.870 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (slow jazz music) 09:30.870 --> 09:35.708 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Later, slowed and silenced by a cruel and crippling disease, 09:35.708 --> 09:38.244 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he found refuge in his faith, 09:38.244 --> 09:41.514 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% becoming a symbol of peace and hope on every continent. 09:41.514 --> 09:43.282 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (slow jazz music) 09:43.282 --> 09:46.752 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "Muhammad Ali was," the novelist Norman Mailer wrote, 09:46.752 --> 09:49.322 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "the very spirit of the 20th century." 09:49.322 --> 09:51.223 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (slow jazz music) 09:51.223 --> 09:53.225 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I'm always going to be one Black one 09:53.225 --> 09:55.628 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who got big on your white televisions, 09:55.628 --> 09:56.929 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% on your white newspapers, 09:56.929 --> 09:58.297 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% on your satellites, 09:58.297 --> 09:59.799 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% million dollar checks, 09:59.799 --> 10:02.168 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and still look you in your face and tell you the truth, 10:02.168 --> 10:05.371 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and 100% stay with and represent my people, 10:05.371 --> 10:07.840 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and not leave 'em and sell 'em out because I'm rich, 10:07.840 --> 10:08.741 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and stay with 'em. 10:08.741 --> 10:09.842 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% That was my purpose. 10:09.842 --> 10:11.277 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I'm here, 10:11.277 --> 10:12.578 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I'm showing the world that you can be here 10:12.578 --> 10:13.412 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and still free, 10:13.412 --> 10:15.214 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and stay yourself, 10:15.214 --> 10:16.649 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and get respect from the world. 10:16.649 --> 10:19.318 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (buzzer sounds) 10:25.257 --> 10:27.560 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - All right, we are all here. 10:27.560 --> 10:28.761 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Hi, everyone. 10:28.761 --> 10:29.595 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Can you hear me? 10:29.595 --> 10:30.463 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% We're all good? 10:32.531 --> 10:33.766 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Hi, everyone, 10:33.766 --> 10:35.901 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm Lonnae O'Neal with The Undefeated, 10:35.901 --> 10:38.738 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I am delighted to be here tonight 10:38.738 --> 10:43.075 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for our conversation, "Ali On the World's Stage." 10:43.075 --> 10:46.646 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I'm joined in this virtual space by our illustrious panel. 10:46.646 --> 10:49.649 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Ken Burns, whose 40 years of filmmaking 10:49.649 --> 10:52.118 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% has given us some of the most revealing 10:52.118 --> 10:55.087 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and acclaimed historical documentaries ever made, 10:55.087 --> 10:57.923 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and who now brings us this sweeping new look 10:57.923 --> 11:00.493 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% at the life and meaning of Muhammad Ali. 11:00.493 --> 11:02.028 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Ken, thank you for being here, 11:02.028 --> 11:04.797 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and for making such a monumental film. 11:04.797 --> 11:05.665 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Thank you, Lonnae. 11:05.665 --> 11:07.667 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - We have Todd Boyd, 11:07.667 --> 11:11.203 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% aka "the Notorious PhD." 11:11.203 --> 11:12.705 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (Ken chuckles) 11:12.705 --> 11:14.440 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He is the Katherine and Frank Price Endowed Chair 11:14.440 --> 11:17.043 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for the Study of Race and Popular Culture, 11:17.043 --> 11:20.212 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as well as professor of cinema and media studies 11:20.212 --> 11:23.282 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% at the USC School of Cinematic Arts. 11:23.282 --> 11:25.384 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Dr. Boyd shares his insights 11:25.384 --> 11:27.153 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in the Muhammad Ali documentary, 11:27.153 --> 11:29.955 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and we're looking forward to hearing his thoughts tonight. 11:29.955 --> 11:32.058 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Thank you so much, Dr. Boyd. 11:32.058 --> 11:33.259 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Thank you. 11:33.259 --> 11:35.261 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - We are also very lucky to be joined by 11:35.261 --> 11:38.531 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% five-time Olympic medalist Janet Evans. 11:38.531 --> 11:40.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% She's the chief athlete officer 11:40.733 --> 11:44.403 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of the Los Angeles 2028 Olympic Committee, 11:44.403 --> 11:48.641 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and it was Evans who passed the Olympic flame to Ali 11:48.641 --> 11:53.612 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% at the opening ceremony of the Atlanta 1996 Games. 11:53.612 --> 11:56.282 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Janet, thank you so much for being here. 11:56.282 --> 11:57.983 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Honored, thank you for having me. 11:59.618 --> 12:02.555 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - As we all know, this is the 25th anniversary 12:02.555 --> 12:05.491 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of the lighting of that Olympic torch, 12:05.491 --> 12:07.560 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and, almost to the minute. 12:07.560 --> 12:11.630 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so, for those of us who remember seeing it live, 12:11.630 --> 12:14.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think we scarcely could have imagined 12:14.600 --> 12:19.071 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the impact and the staying power that moment would have, 12:19.071 --> 12:23.075 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% both here in the United States and around the world. 12:23.075 --> 12:26.078 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Ken, can you set up the clip we're gonna watch, 12:26.078 --> 12:29.081 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and, that became such an enduring image 12:29.081 --> 12:31.083 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of Ali on the world stage? 12:31.083 --> 12:32.585 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Of course, Lonnae, 12:32.585 --> 12:35.154 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and thank you so much for having me this evening. 12:35.154 --> 12:37.490 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We're so excited to share the film, 12:37.490 --> 12:40.860 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I'm speaking on behalf of my two codirectors, 12:40.860 --> 12:43.195 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Sarah Burns and David McMahon. 12:43.195 --> 12:46.632 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Sarah is my oldest daughter and David is my son-in-law, 12:46.632 --> 12:49.101 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and we have been collaborating on a number of things, 12:49.101 --> 12:52.338 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% no more more important to ourselves and our hearts 12:52.338 --> 12:53.906 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% than this one. 12:53.906 --> 12:55.775 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They were also, Sarah and Dave, the writer of this. 12:55.775 --> 12:58.611 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so, you know, sort of out of sequence, 12:58.611 --> 13:00.546 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% we want to jump ahead, 13:00.546 --> 13:03.048 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% given this distinguished panel, 13:03.048 --> 13:04.617 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and show you a clip from 13:04.617 --> 13:08.921 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% very near the end of the fourth episode of four in our film. 13:08.921 --> 13:12.291 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% It is 1996, 13:12.291 --> 13:15.594 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% exactly 25 years ago tonight to the moment, 13:15.594 --> 13:17.863 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% as you said, Lonnae. 13:17.863 --> 13:19.865 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's been out of the public eye for awhile, 13:19.865 --> 13:23.502 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and this is just a short, brief clip of us 13:25.204 --> 13:26.505 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% trying to come to terms with 13:26.505 --> 13:29.909 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% one of the most powerful moments in his life, 13:29.909 --> 13:31.577 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% a great human moment for him, 13:31.577 --> 13:33.879 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but an even greater moment for humanity 13:33.879 --> 13:36.215 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% where billions of people got to share 13:36.215 --> 13:39.685 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the same moment of healing together, 13:39.685 --> 13:41.854 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and it's an indelible moment, 13:41.854 --> 13:44.290 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% so let's roll the next clip. (mumbles) 13:44.290 --> 13:46.192 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (slow hip-hop music) 13:46.192 --> 13:48.694 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Narrator] In 1996, the Olympic Committee 13:48.694 --> 13:50.663 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% planning the Summer Games in Atlanta 13:50.663 --> 13:53.232 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% asked Muhammad Ali to light the torch 13:53.232 --> 13:55.634 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% at the opening ceremonies. 13:55.634 --> 13:57.837 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% At first, Ali declined. 13:57.837 --> 13:59.972 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He didn't want to be seen shaking and stumbling 13:59.972 --> 14:01.040 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% on that stage, 14:02.274 --> 14:04.844 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but his friend Howard Bingham convinced him. 14:04.844 --> 14:07.112 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "This is the thing where the world is saying 14:07.112 --> 14:09.915 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% thank you for all that you've done over your life," 14:09.915 --> 14:11.617 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Bingham told him. 14:11.617 --> 14:13.819 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "There will be 3 billion people watching." 14:14.787 --> 14:16.655 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (crowd cheers) 14:16.655 --> 14:19.558 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (triumphant music) 14:21.560 --> 14:23.195 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Narrator] The plans were kept secret. 14:23.195 --> 14:25.264 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Announcer] Do you recognize her? 14:25.264 --> 14:26.365 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Janet Evans. 14:26.365 --> 14:28.534 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (triumphant music) 14:28.534 --> 14:30.603 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Considered the greatest female distance swimmer 14:30.603 --> 14:32.304 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% of all times. (crowd cheers) 14:32.304 --> 14:34.139 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% - And it was planned very brilliantly. 14:34.139 --> 14:36.976 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% I mean, people really thought the swimmer Janet Evans 14:36.976 --> 14:38.210 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% was going to be the person 14:38.210 --> 14:39.712 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% who was going to light that torch, 14:41.046 --> 14:43.048 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but instead, out of nowhere comes Muhammad Ali. 14:43.048 --> 14:48.053 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% (slow guitar music) (crowd cheers) 14:52.157 --> 14:54.460 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% ♪ It's a long ♪ 14:54.460 --> 14:56.595 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% ♪ I'll take the long road ♪ 14:56.595 --> 14:57.997 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - You hadn't really seen him in awhile. 14:57.997 --> 14:58.931 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% You knew he was sick, 14:58.931 --> 15:00.699 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% and when you would see him, 15:00.699 --> 15:04.136 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% he was clearly showing the effects of the illness, 15:04.136 --> 15:06.405 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but he hadn't been seen that much, 15:06.405 --> 15:09.508 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and then, here he is in this big prominent moment, 15:09.508 --> 15:11.777 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and he's holding that torch and he's shaking. 15:13.245 --> 15:16.615 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I, man, I'm about to cry now. 15:17.483 --> 15:18.784 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It was hard to watch, 15:20.219 --> 15:23.956 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because you don't want to see your guy like that. 15:23.956 --> 15:25.858 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You don't want to see that, 15:25.858 --> 15:27.326 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% but you saw it. 15:27.326 --> 15:29.428 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (slow guitar music) 15:29.428 --> 15:31.030 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - He was defenseless. 15:31.030 --> 15:34.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Now, he can't hurt us anymore. 15:34.166 --> 15:36.468 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, he can't make us mad anymore, 15:36.468 --> 15:38.070 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (slow guitar music) 15:38.070 --> 15:39.371 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% because now he's, 15:40.706 --> 15:44.109 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% the game that we ask him to play to entertain us 15:45.277 --> 15:47.079 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% has left him looking like this. 15:48.314 --> 15:51.350 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And now, we feel some sympathy, if not guilt. 15:53.118 --> 15:57.356 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We see him shaking, trembling up there. 15:57.356 --> 15:59.158 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% The most beautiful moving, 15:59.158 --> 16:02.428 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% most beautiful athlete in motion you've ever seen, 16:02.428 --> 16:05.230 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and now he can't hold the torch, you know? 16:05.230 --> 16:07.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So we feel guilt and we feel sympathy. 16:07.700 --> 16:08.534 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We want to hug him. 16:08.534 --> 16:09.735 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We want to embrace him. 16:09.735 --> 16:11.870 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We want to ask his forgiveness, you know? 16:11.870 --> 16:16.408 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Everything, and for every reason that we disliked him, 16:16.408 --> 16:17.343 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% now we love him, 16:18.911 --> 16:20.179 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you know, because he was right. 16:20.179 --> 16:25.184 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% (crowd cheers) (slow guitar music) 16:26.452 --> 16:28.921 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (flames crackle) 16:28.921 --> 16:31.924 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And it was striking to see this evolution, 16:31.924 --> 16:33.792 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% not in Ali, 16:33.792 --> 16:34.994 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% but in us. 16:34.994 --> 16:36.261 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% (slow guitar music) 16:36.261 --> 16:38.497 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% Ah, it just struck me so amazingly 16:38.497 --> 16:42.167 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% to watch Ali, like, riding this torch. 16:42.167 --> 16:43.535 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (slow guitar music) 16:43.535 --> 16:45.204 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% People weeping. 16:45.204 --> 16:46.805 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (slow guitar music) 16:46.805 --> 16:47.673 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% It's amazing. 16:48.874 --> 16:52.745 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And you cast back not so many years before, 16:52.745 --> 16:55.414 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and some huge amount of the country 16:55.414 --> 16:59.151 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% thought this guy was the Antichrist, 16:59.151 --> 17:00.285 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or they chose to hate him, 17:00.285 --> 17:01.987 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% or they made him a foil 17:01.987 --> 17:04.656 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to the other guy that they liked better. 17:04.656 --> 17:07.192 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And it's entirely possible 17:07.192 --> 17:09.528 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that human beings are capable of learning something. 17:09.528 --> 17:12.331 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% ♪ I'll take the long road, yeah, yeah ♪ 17:12.331 --> 17:16.168 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Narrator] The outpouring of love caught Ali by surprise. 17:16.168 --> 17:18.404 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Parkinson's robs you of confidence," 17:18.404 --> 17:19.905 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Lonnie told a reporter. 17:19.905 --> 17:23.075 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "Now he knows the public will love him and accept him, 17:23.075 --> 17:25.077 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "no matter what he has." 17:25.077 --> 17:28.080 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (slow guitar music) 17:32.418 --> 17:33.252 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Wow. 17:35.020 --> 17:36.388 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Wow, wow, wow. 17:38.223 --> 17:43.228 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Janet, that was such an image of Ali for the ages. 17:48.434 --> 17:52.037 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I, yes, and I was telling all of you 17:52.037 --> 17:54.139 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a few minutes ago before we came on 17:54.139 --> 17:57.943 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that I'm asked all the time about it. 17:57.943 --> 17:59.812 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So when someone to, this morning said to me, 17:59.812 --> 18:02.314 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "It's been 25 years, does it feel like 25 years?" 18:02.314 --> 18:03.582 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% My answer was "No," 18:03.582 --> 18:06.151 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because I am blessed with the opportunity 18:07.286 --> 18:10.389 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to be able to tell this side of my story 18:10.389 --> 18:12.858 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% where I was present in that moment. 18:12.858 --> 18:15.260 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And, you know, on a personal note, for me, 18:16.562 --> 18:19.998 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it transcended all of my Olympic moments. 18:19.998 --> 18:21.467 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, I was a three-time Olympian. 18:21.467 --> 18:24.169 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I represented our country like Ali at the Olympic Games, 18:24.169 --> 18:27.106 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is the penultimate athletic experience. 18:27.106 --> 18:28.474 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And, you know, I tell people, 18:28.474 --> 18:30.976 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'd give up every single one of my medals 18:30.976 --> 18:33.579 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to be present in that moment again. 18:33.579 --> 18:38.016 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And, you know, I was young when, I was born in 1971. 18:38.016 --> 18:42.254 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so I wasn't witness to a lot, 18:42.254 --> 18:43.622 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and I was very young. 18:43.622 --> 18:47.326 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, for me, the phenomenon of Muhammad Ali 18:47.326 --> 18:49.061 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% really began in that moment for me. 18:49.061 --> 18:51.830 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, of course I knew him and I knew who he was, 18:51.830 --> 18:54.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but when I was standing there 18:54.666 --> 18:56.869 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and he was lighting that cauldron, 18:56.869 --> 19:00.873 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and he was standing there shaking with the torch, 19:00.873 --> 19:03.642 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I felt like he was giving it to the world, right? 19:03.642 --> 19:08.647 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, that was the emotion that was coming from him, was, 19:09.381 --> 19:10.115 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% this is yours, right? 19:10.115 --> 19:11.617 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I am here. 19:11.617 --> 19:13.018 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% This is yours. 19:13.018 --> 19:17.289 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I am that person who is bringing you together once again, 19:17.289 --> 19:18.690 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in happiness or not, 19:18.690 --> 19:21.827 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but I am here in this moment, 19:22.995 --> 19:25.964 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it was courage and generosity, 19:25.964 --> 19:27.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and to me, it was graciousness. 19:27.833 --> 19:32.204 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And, you know, I think athletes, in general, 19:32.204 --> 19:34.039 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% struggle with transition. 19:34.039 --> 19:36.041 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We struggle with not being 19:36.041 --> 19:38.477 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the great swimmer for the rest of our lives 19:38.477 --> 19:40.479 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% or the great boxer, 19:40.479 --> 19:42.748 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but what Ali did on that night was 19:42.748 --> 19:45.083 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he gave all of us, myself included, 19:46.251 --> 19:49.021 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this knowledge that you don't have to 19:49.021 --> 19:51.023 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% be able to get in a ring and box anymore. 19:51.023 --> 19:53.225 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% You can, and be ill. 19:53.225 --> 19:54.826 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You know, I lost my dad to ALS, 19:54.826 --> 19:57.329 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% so I'm very familiar with this disease. 19:57.329 --> 19:58.897 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And I, you could see him, 19:58.897 --> 20:01.867 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you could see his mind working 20:01.867 --> 20:03.669 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and trying to make his body 20:03.669 --> 20:06.038 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with this torch light that flame. 20:06.038 --> 20:08.941 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And, you know, I think he said to the world, 20:08.941 --> 20:10.175 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% it doesn't matter. 20:10.175 --> 20:12.044 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It doesn't matter if you're sick, 20:12.044 --> 20:15.314 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it doesn't matter what your position in life is. 20:15.314 --> 20:17.316 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We are here to inspire, 20:17.316 --> 20:20.118 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or we are here to stand for something, you know? 20:20.118 --> 20:22.054 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Here he was in the South, a Black man, right, 20:22.054 --> 20:24.356 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and then being adulated. 20:25.557 --> 20:29.895 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I think it's such a resonating moment 20:29.895 --> 20:31.897 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% within my world of the Olympic movement 20:32.798 --> 20:35.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because it defined to many of us 20:35.033 --> 20:36.468 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% what the Olympic movement is, 20:36.468 --> 20:38.136 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% which is not medals. 20:38.136 --> 20:39.371 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's not winning, 20:39.371 --> 20:41.640 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and Ali certainly wouldn't have 20:41.640 --> 20:43.875 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% won a boxing match that evening, 20:43.875 --> 20:45.244 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but he said to the world, 20:45.244 --> 20:46.945 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you can still make an impact. 20:46.945 --> 20:48.614 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You can still make a difference. 20:48.614 --> 20:50.649 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It doesn't matter what your lot in life is, 20:50.649 --> 20:53.318 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I think that's why this message 20:53.318 --> 20:55.320 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% still resonates on a personal level. 20:55.320 --> 20:58.190 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It made me realize that my platform as an Olympian 20:58.190 --> 20:59.424 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% was an important platform, 20:59.424 --> 21:01.093 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the medals, yeah, they're wonderful, 21:01.093 --> 21:04.229 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but my platform is to change lives for athletes 21:04.229 --> 21:05.764 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and inspire and motivate them, 21:05.764 --> 21:10.369 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and 100%, I give that to Ali for inspiring me to do that, 21:10.969 --> 21:11.370 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% even now, today. 21:12.738 --> 21:14.740 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And in everything you just said, 21:14.740 --> 21:17.542 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% just, the moment becomes representative of 21:17.542 --> 21:20.846 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this international Olympic ideal, right? 21:22.547 --> 21:24.950 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And Todd, so, in the film, 21:24.950 --> 21:29.921 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you are so affected when you're talking about Ali 21:29.921 --> 21:34.926 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the ravages of what he was going through, 21:36.061 --> 21:39.031 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and you talked about it being hard to watch. 21:39.031 --> 21:41.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What so moved you in this moment, 21:41.833 --> 21:43.335 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and by extension, 21:43.335 --> 21:46.338 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the millions of people watching around the world? 21:46.338 --> 21:48.473 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% What were we all responding to? 21:49.908 --> 21:54.212 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Well, I can speak to that at a personal level. 21:54.212 --> 21:59.184 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think different people would have different responses, 22:00.352 --> 22:03.288 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I so appreciate the opportunity of 22:03.288 --> 22:05.824 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% hearing Janet Evans describe that experience 22:05.824 --> 22:08.760 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% from being there on the platform with him, 22:08.760 --> 22:11.330 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is, you know, such a unique experience, 22:11.330 --> 22:14.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but I think different people reacted differently. 22:14.433 --> 22:17.736 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% What you got from me in the film 22:18.737 --> 22:20.205 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is something quite unusual, 22:20.205 --> 22:23.041 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and that is a show of emotion. 22:23.041 --> 22:26.712 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% You don't get to be "the Notorious PhD" by showing emotion, 22:27.846 --> 22:29.815 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% so this is rare, but it was genuine. 22:29.815 --> 22:34.820 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And, you know, when I think about that moment, even now, 22:36.021 --> 22:37.222 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, how many times have I seen that clip? 22:37.222 --> 22:39.191 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% How many times have people asked me 22:39.191 --> 22:40.659 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to comment on it in my career? 22:40.659 --> 22:44.796 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Like, I lost count, you know, 20 years ago. 22:44.796 --> 22:46.164 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This is something I've been asked 22:46.164 --> 22:48.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to comment about a great deal. 22:49.801 --> 22:52.804 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Things, you know, I talk about it with friends of mine. 22:52.804 --> 22:56.174 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I mean, it's common in my life, 22:56.174 --> 22:57.642 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and no matter when I see it, 22:57.642 --> 22:59.478 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I have the same reaction to it. 23:01.146 --> 23:05.450 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Part of it is, you know, exhilarating, 23:05.450 --> 23:07.352 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and another part of it is depressing, 23:08.787 --> 23:13.225 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I think it's the sort of clash of those things 23:13.225 --> 23:15.127 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that made it so emotional. 23:15.127 --> 23:17.796 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, I don't have any children, 23:17.796 --> 23:21.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but someone told me once that when babies cry, 23:21.733 --> 23:23.802 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% they're trying to express themself and they can't, 23:23.802 --> 23:27.139 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and that's the only way that they can get across 23:27.139 --> 23:29.274 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what it is they're trying to say. 23:29.274 --> 23:30.976 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And in that moment, I, 23:30.976 --> 23:33.678 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you know, I'm a person who makes my living with words, 23:33.678 --> 23:35.080 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and I had no words. 23:36.648 --> 23:38.917 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% On one hand, you know, you're talking about 23:40.385 --> 23:43.455 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the evidence of an American hero 23:44.856 --> 23:47.993 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% standing on a stage in front of the world in Atlanta, 23:47.993 --> 23:50.128 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is important for numerous reasons, 23:50.128 --> 23:54.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% one of which is the place that he began his comeback 23:54.766 --> 23:56.001 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% after being in exile, 23:56.001 --> 23:58.103 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% so there's that piece of it, 23:58.103 --> 24:02.073 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but the idea of a Black man as an American hero. 24:02.073 --> 24:05.544 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I think what's unique about Ali is, 24:05.544 --> 24:09.181 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% this is a Black man who, back in the 1960s and '70s, 24:09.181 --> 24:12.784 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% consciously went against the establishment. 24:12.784 --> 24:15.020 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He went against the grain. 24:15.020 --> 24:19.991 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He was not, you know, Jesse Owens in 1936 at the Olympics. 24:19.991 --> 24:22.861 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He was not Joe Louis in the late 1930s 24:22.861 --> 24:24.296 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% against Max Schmeling, 24:24.296 --> 24:27.332 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% doing something that Americans across the board 24:27.332 --> 24:29.067 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% could embrace and celebrate 24:29.067 --> 24:32.137 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and hold up as emblematic of the nation, 24:32.137 --> 24:34.606 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in spite of what these individuals experienced 24:34.606 --> 24:36.875 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as Black people in America. 24:36.875 --> 24:40.679 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% This was a Black person who went against the system 24:40.679 --> 24:42.981 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in a very direct way, 24:42.981 --> 24:45.217 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and here it is, all these years later, 24:46.084 --> 24:48.286 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and he's standing on this stage 24:48.286 --> 24:51.289 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and he's being embraced by 24:51.289 --> 24:54.659 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the nation that he once had to defy. 24:55.560 --> 24:57.863 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And at the same time, 24:57.863 --> 25:02.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he's someone with a debilitating illness that, 25:02.000 --> 25:05.504 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% if we're all able to live long lives, 25:05.504 --> 25:08.039 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% something is going to happen to us, 25:08.039 --> 25:11.343 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and we're gonna experience aging and illness, 25:11.343 --> 25:13.612 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and you don't see that every day. 25:13.612 --> 25:16.248 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Maybe you see it in your personal life with your family, 25:16.248 --> 25:18.149 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but in terms of public figures, 25:19.084 --> 25:21.353 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you know, Ronald Reagan spent 25:21.353 --> 25:23.088 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the last years of his presidency 25:23.088 --> 25:25.390 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the last years of his life very ill. 25:25.390 --> 25:27.025 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We didn't see that. 25:27.025 --> 25:28.260 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% If we had seen it, 25:28.260 --> 25:31.162 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it would affect how we see Ronald Reagan. 25:31.162 --> 25:34.332 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So here we were looking at Ali, 25:34.332 --> 25:36.535 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% celebrating him, 25:36.535 --> 25:41.406 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but what we're looking at is not pleasant to the eye, 25:41.406 --> 25:46.411 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and it's specifically because the profession he excelled in, 25:47.579 --> 25:50.382 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% boxing was one that the longer he did it, 25:50.382 --> 25:54.252 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the more impact it took on his life physically. 25:54.252 --> 25:57.055 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So there's a part of me that looks at this 25:57.055 --> 25:59.524 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and sees this American hero, 25:59.524 --> 26:01.860 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this Black man who went against the system, 26:01.860 --> 26:03.628 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% being embraced. 26:03.628 --> 26:07.999 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And in a way, people are saying, "You were right all along," 26:07.999 --> 26:10.969 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but then there's the other part of it of, 26:10.969 --> 26:12.871 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you know, he kept boxing. 26:12.871 --> 26:15.206 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He took all these punches. 26:15.206 --> 26:16.741 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% The second half of his career 26:16.741 --> 26:19.511 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is really defined in terms of boxing 26:19.511 --> 26:22.914 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% by his ability to continually take a punch, 26:24.015 --> 26:25.550 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but he took too many. 26:25.550 --> 26:28.920 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so, you know, staying in the ring, 26:28.920 --> 26:31.623 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% his profession brought him to this point, 26:31.623 --> 26:32.924 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and you're sitting there watching it, 26:32.924 --> 26:34.459 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and that's not pleasant, 26:34.459 --> 26:36.428 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but on the other hand, 26:36.428 --> 26:37.596 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% this is Ali. 26:38.797 --> 26:40.398 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% As he says, "Keep the camera moving, 26:40.398 --> 26:42.267 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "'cause I'm kinda fast." 26:42.267 --> 26:43.368 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He's not that fast. 26:43.368 --> 26:45.537 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He's shaking, he's trembling, 26:45.537 --> 26:47.739 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but he's an American hero, 26:47.739 --> 26:49.140 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and we saw it, 26:49.140 --> 26:52.377 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and here we are 25 years later talking about it 26:52.377 --> 26:57.182 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and, you know, looking at clips of a life well lived. 26:59.651 --> 27:01.853 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - So, Ken, kind of piggybacking on 27:01.853 --> 27:03.722 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% what Todd was saying, right, 27:03.722 --> 27:05.256 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% time is undefeated, 27:06.691 --> 27:09.928 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I am struck by the way his Olympic experience, 27:09.928 --> 27:14.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% which began, of course, with winning the gold medal in 1960, 27:14.733 --> 27:17.769 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and ends with this torch lighting, 27:17.769 --> 27:19.704 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and, so these served as a, 27:19.704 --> 27:22.173 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the torch lighting serves as a bookend, 27:22.173 --> 27:25.243 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and, to much of his time on the world stage. 27:26.711 --> 27:31.116 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% So what were the universal themes 27:31.116 --> 27:34.719 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that were contained within those bookends? 27:34.719 --> 27:36.721 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% The humanity captured, 27:36.721 --> 27:39.491 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% going from the young, brash Olympic hopeful 27:39.491 --> 27:42.293 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to the former champion, 27:42.293 --> 27:45.597 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% allowing us once again to see his true self? 27:46.698 --> 27:47.899 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% What did that mean to you? 27:47.899 --> 27:50.168 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% In what ways did, does that speak to you? 27:51.469 --> 27:53.571 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - This is a really excellent question, Lonnae, 27:53.571 --> 27:57.542 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I think Todd and Janet have spoken so eloquently. 27:57.542 --> 27:58.910 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I'd like to back up a little bit 27:58.910 --> 28:01.880 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% before the Rome Olympics of 1960 to say, 28:01.880 --> 28:04.082 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% there's something in this kid 28:04.082 --> 28:05.684 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that we're seeing in the photographs. 28:05.684 --> 28:06.951 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% There's something in this kid 28:06.951 --> 28:10.288 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that we're seeing in the earliest of the footage 28:10.288 --> 28:12.524 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and in the first talking stuff 28:12.524 --> 28:15.960 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% where he's chosen boxing accidentally, 28:15.960 --> 28:18.396 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and he's, turns out to be really good at it. 28:18.396 --> 28:20.598 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% But he also has, underlying that, 28:20.598 --> 28:22.634 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a real sense of purpose in the life. 28:22.634 --> 28:26.304 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He's a kid born in Jim Crow America, a Black kid, 28:26.304 --> 28:28.973 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and he's got something, 28:28.973 --> 28:30.508 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% a je ne sais quoi, 28:30.508 --> 28:32.510 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that he is gonna go, whatever he's doing. 28:32.510 --> 28:35.180 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, you know, I told somebody earlier today, 28:35.180 --> 28:36.815 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% could have been a simple carpenter, 28:36.815 --> 28:39.184 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and we know a few simple carpenters 28:39.184 --> 28:42.420 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who've gone as far as he did, you know? 28:42.420 --> 28:45.990 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so, in a way, the Rome Olympics places him 28:45.990 --> 28:48.626 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on a world stage that he never leaves, 28:48.626 --> 28:51.830 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and it's really important that, from that moment, 28:51.830 --> 28:53.531 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he begins to intersect with 28:53.531 --> 28:57.035 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% all the most important themes in American life. 28:57.035 --> 28:59.604 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And they have to do with race in America, 28:59.604 --> 29:02.707 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because that's the central theme of us, 29:02.707 --> 29:07.712 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% both the US and the two-letter lowercase plural pronoun, 29:08.446 --> 29:09.581 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but also about religion. 29:09.581 --> 29:11.649 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He chooses a separatist, 29:11.649 --> 29:14.519 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% separatist religious sect, 29:14.519 --> 29:16.888 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a kinda hybrid of Islam that's not Islam. 29:16.888 --> 29:18.490 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It's kind of an American thing. 29:18.490 --> 29:20.525 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% If PT Barnum was, 29:20.525 --> 29:23.194 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you know, he might have invented something like that 29:23.194 --> 29:24.696 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that also offered people, 29:24.696 --> 29:26.831 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and Northern African Americans, 29:26.831 --> 29:28.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% a different kind of solution to 29:28.533 --> 29:32.203 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the agrarian faith-based integrationists 29:32.203 --> 29:33.438 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that Martin Luther King 29:33.438 --> 29:35.707 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the traditional civil rights offered. 29:35.707 --> 29:38.109 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So he's beginning to, as Todd said, 29:38.109 --> 29:40.111 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he's going against every kind of grain. 29:40.111 --> 29:42.247 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% At times, he is as threatening to 29:42.247 --> 29:44.149 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a kind of middle-class Black American 29:44.149 --> 29:47.819 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as he is terrifying to so many white Americans 29:47.819 --> 29:49.187 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% for the way he's standing up, 29:49.187 --> 29:50.455 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% for the way he's acting, 29:50.455 --> 29:52.090 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% for the way he's redefining, 29:52.090 --> 29:54.759 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as we said in the intro, Black manhood, 29:54.759 --> 29:58.029 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in a way that, a generation before, Jackie Robinson had. 29:58.029 --> 29:59.731 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This is a totally different person. 29:59.731 --> 30:01.132 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He's saying he's pretty. 30:01.132 --> 30:02.767 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He's saying he's the greatest. 30:02.767 --> 30:05.537 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's saying he's, nobody can beat him. 30:05.537 --> 30:07.172 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It is unheard of, 30:07.172 --> 30:09.174 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and it is dissonant and jarring. 30:09.174 --> 30:10.575 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's hard to forget. 30:10.575 --> 30:13.778 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% There wasn't just this beautiful insouciance about him. 30:13.778 --> 30:15.280 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It was threatening, 30:15.280 --> 30:17.248 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and so he's intersecting with all of these things. 30:17.248 --> 30:18.850 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He's intersecting with politics. 30:18.850 --> 30:20.718 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He's opposed to the Vietnam War. 30:20.718 --> 30:22.487 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He's making a principled stand, 30:22.487 --> 30:25.723 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and willing, as he said, as a young 20 year old, 30:26.825 --> 30:28.593 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to risk a firing squad 30:29.794 --> 30:31.296 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to uphold his beliefs. 30:31.296 --> 30:34.999 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so, you've got the entire country roiled up over him. 30:34.999 --> 30:36.768 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He's changed his name. 30:36.768 --> 30:41.039 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He's no longer the name of a celebrated abolitionist, 30:41.039 --> 30:43.107 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but he's taken the, a Muslim name, 30:43.107 --> 30:45.210 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and nobody wants to respect that, 30:45.210 --> 30:47.478 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and so he's struggling with that. 30:47.478 --> 30:49.581 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He's struggling against the United States government. 30:49.581 --> 30:51.616 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's struggling against his suspension 30:51.616 --> 30:52.851 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and the three and a half years. 30:52.851 --> 30:55.386 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% The year that Janet was born, 30:55.386 --> 30:57.856 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he fights Joe Frazier for the first time 30:57.856 --> 31:00.291 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% after a three-and-a-half-year absence, 31:00.291 --> 31:02.727 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and he's full of all the braggadocio. 31:02.727 --> 31:06.497 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He tear, he's horrible to Joe Frazier, 31:06.497 --> 31:07.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and Joe Frazier beats him. 31:07.966 --> 31:11.469 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And in the press conference afterwards, is he down? 31:11.469 --> 31:12.370 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Is he embarrassed? 31:12.370 --> 31:13.371 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Does he shirk this? 31:13.371 --> 31:14.572 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% No, he says, you know, 31:14.572 --> 31:16.174 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "There's gonna be defeat in every life." 31:16.174 --> 31:18.543 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And he realizes he's been a symbol 31:18.543 --> 31:21.079 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for an awfully long time to the entire world, 31:21.079 --> 31:24.215 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and he's gonna say, "I need to serve an as example." 31:24.215 --> 31:26.017 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's one of the most heroic thing. 31:26.017 --> 31:28.152 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I know that Todd knows his speech really well. 31:28.152 --> 31:30.421 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It's unbelievable when he is, 31:31.589 --> 31:33.524 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you know, acquitted by the Supreme Court, 31:33.524 --> 31:34.759 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% exonerates him, 31:34.759 --> 31:36.694 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and he no longer has to go to jail. 31:36.694 --> 31:39.163 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They say, "Do you have faith in the justice system?" 31:39.163 --> 31:41.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And he goes, "Well, I don't know who's gonna be killed 31:41.466 --> 31:43.768 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "or who, what cop's gonna beat somebody up." 31:43.768 --> 31:45.036 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You know, he doesn't say it, 31:45.036 --> 31:46.804 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but who's the next Breonna Taylor? 31:46.804 --> 31:48.373 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Who's the next George Floyd? 31:48.373 --> 31:49.874 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Who's the next Trayvon Martin? 31:49.874 --> 31:54.012 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's there with everybody in the world 31:54.012 --> 31:56.781 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who have ever felt oppressed. 31:56.781 --> 32:00.184 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so, he spends his life essentially intersecting with 32:00.184 --> 32:03.888 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% all the major themes of the last half of the 20th century. 32:03.888 --> 32:05.156 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And lo and behold, 32:05.156 --> 32:06.858 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as we work with our heads, 32:06.858 --> 32:09.327 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% nose to the grindstone on this project, 32:09.327 --> 32:12.330 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we lift up after seven years and see, 32:12.330 --> 32:15.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% oh my goodness, he's talking about today, as well. 32:15.466 --> 32:19.871 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And then you realize why tonight, as well, 32:19.871 --> 32:22.273 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% we are talking about this event. 32:22.273 --> 32:25.443 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% An athlete imprisoned by this disease, 32:25.443 --> 32:28.780 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and yet, liberated by it at the same time, 32:28.780 --> 32:31.849 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who has gone on to yet another kinda thing. 32:31.849 --> 32:36.354 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The last film I made was on the writer Ernest Hemingway. 32:36.354 --> 32:38.256 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% That didn't end too well. 32:38.256 --> 32:39.190 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% This guy, 32:40.158 --> 32:42.026 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% beset by this disease, 32:42.026 --> 32:46.064 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% dies the most popular person, 32:46.064 --> 32:49.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the most beloved person on the planet. 32:49.600 --> 32:51.836 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm really interested in who that is. 32:53.471 --> 32:57.175 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - The most beloved person on the planet. 32:57.175 --> 33:02.080 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Yet, we all personalize him, right? 33:02.680 --> 33:03.915 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Like, he's ours. 33:03.915 --> 33:05.683 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We heard it from each of you, 33:05.683 --> 33:09.420 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and Janet, just to sort of close out that look, 33:10.822 --> 33:12.357 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% at eye level, 33:13.758 --> 33:18.229 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what did you see that the rest of the world didn't see, 33:19.630 --> 33:21.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and what were you taking from, in that moment, right, 33:21.833 --> 33:24.135 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that we all weren't privy to? 33:24.135 --> 33:25.937 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - I saw confidence. 33:25.937 --> 33:29.941 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I saw just a tiny bit of nervousness and fear, 33:29.941 --> 33:33.811 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but I saw, you know, kind of that athlete look of, 33:33.811 --> 33:35.313 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I'm gonna get this done, 33:35.313 --> 33:38.182 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and what Billy Payne told me prior to, 33:38.182 --> 33:40.785 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% one of the reasons I didn't unlight my torch 33:40.785 --> 33:43.521 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% was because there was a fear that he would drop it. 33:43.521 --> 33:45.390 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And if he had dropped the flame, 33:45.390 --> 33:46.657 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% it would have unignited, 33:46.657 --> 33:49.260 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it's not what you do on the way to the torch, 33:49.260 --> 33:51.362 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is, you know, the torch goes from Olympia 33:51.362 --> 33:53.364 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% all the way to the host country. 33:53.364 --> 33:55.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And I could see in his eyes, 33:55.900 --> 33:57.969 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% 'cause I was so nervous he was gonna drop it, 33:57.969 --> 33:59.871 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% 'cause I didn't want to have to help him, right? (chuckles) 33:59.871 --> 34:01.339 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And I could see it. 34:01.339 --> 34:02.407 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's not gonna happen. 34:02.407 --> 34:03.508 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I'm not gonna drop this. 34:03.508 --> 34:04.575 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I am gonna do this. 34:04.575 --> 34:05.777 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And there was this, 34:06.677 --> 34:08.846 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% this confidence and this pride 34:08.846 --> 34:11.549 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and this, like, determination, 34:11.549 --> 34:12.784 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and I knew it, right? 34:12.784 --> 34:15.520 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It was just, like, you got this, right? 34:15.520 --> 34:17.522 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Like, and, you know, 34:17.522 --> 34:20.591 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he wasn't speaking at the time because of his illness. 34:20.591 --> 34:21.826 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And if he could have, 34:21.826 --> 34:22.760 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I would never have heard him anyway 34:22.760 --> 34:24.629 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because that stadium was, 34:24.629 --> 34:26.397 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you know, his daughter talking about the airports 34:26.397 --> 34:28.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and the roar of the crowd. 34:28.566 --> 34:30.802 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Like, I could still feel it in my, 34:30.802 --> 34:32.570 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think anyone who was in that stadium 34:32.570 --> 34:34.072 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that evening can still feel it. 34:34.072 --> 34:36.441 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But I couldn't have heard him if he had tried to talk, 34:36.441 --> 34:39.444 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but I knew with this, when I looked in his eyes, 34:39.444 --> 34:40.845 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I knew it was gonna be fine. 34:43.314 --> 34:47.885 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - And all of us going along with it would be fine. 34:47.885 --> 34:50.655 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We have some audience questions, 34:50.655 --> 34:55.393 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% although I have to sort of see where they are. 34:57.495 --> 35:00.565 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm wondering if we can maybe save those 35:01.766 --> 35:04.569 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and Ken, get you to tell us about this next clip. 35:04.569 --> 35:05.770 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - [Ken] Sure. 35:05.770 --> 35:08.106 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - To set up, it's Ali in Africa in 1964. 35:08.106 --> 35:11.409 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It comes before the legendary international fights, 35:11.409 --> 35:12.677 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the Rumble In the Jungle 35:12.677 --> 35:15.379 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and in Zaire, the Thrilla in Manila, 35:16.514 --> 35:18.316 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and they helped mark the Ali legend, 35:18.316 --> 35:21.552 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but in what ways does this highlight 35:21.552 --> 35:23.788 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% his time on the world stage? 35:23.788 --> 35:27.792 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - This is a really, really important moment. 35:27.792 --> 35:29.760 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Our first episode takes us up to 35:29.760 --> 35:34.632 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% his winning the heavyweight championship by defeating, 35:34.632 --> 35:38.536 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and probably, with no one confident that he would win, 35:38.536 --> 35:41.272 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% against Sonny Liston in Miami in '64. 35:41.272 --> 35:43.708 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And later that year, he, 35:43.708 --> 35:45.643 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it allows him, it liberates him, 35:45.643 --> 35:48.679 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% at least in his mind and in the mind of others, 35:48.679 --> 35:52.917 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to be able to express this developing Muslim faith 35:52.917 --> 35:54.819 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and the fact that he has become, 35:54.819 --> 35:56.954 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% rather quietly and surreptitiously, 35:56.954 --> 35:59.457 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% a member of the Nation of Islam, 35:59.457 --> 36:01.292 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and become under the sway of 36:01.292 --> 36:04.662 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% not only its leader, Elijah Muhammad, 36:04.662 --> 36:07.064 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but also one of the great preachers, 36:07.064 --> 36:10.168 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% at least for a time, of the Nation of Islam, Malcolm X, 36:10.168 --> 36:13.304 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and they've developed a very intense friendship 36:13.304 --> 36:14.505 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% between the two. 36:14.505 --> 36:15.907 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Kind of mentor, but also friendship. 36:15.907 --> 36:18.643 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Ali supports Malcolm X and his family, 36:18.643 --> 36:21.612 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but there's been some disagreements, 36:21.612 --> 36:24.248 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and Malcolm X has been expelled. 36:24.248 --> 36:26.551 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But after he beats Liston, 36:26.551 --> 36:30.288 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he goes out into a world tour, 36:30.288 --> 36:31.522 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and he goes to Africa, 36:31.522 --> 36:33.824 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and you begin to see the fact that, 36:33.824 --> 36:36.727 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% unlike almost all other athletes, 36:36.727 --> 36:38.196 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% they have, 36:38.196 --> 36:42.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he has felt that the stage that he so has wanted 36:42.466 --> 36:46.837 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% since a little boy banging pots and pans in his kitchen 36:46.837 --> 36:49.106 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is not limited to Louisville, 36:49.106 --> 36:50.508 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Grand Avenue on Louisville. 36:51.676 --> 36:53.778 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's not limited to Louisville, Kentucky. 36:53.778 --> 36:55.980 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's not limited to the United States. 36:55.980 --> 36:59.050 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He's had that experience in Rome four years before. 36:59.050 --> 37:01.252 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It's the world, is his stage. 37:01.252 --> 37:03.688 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so let's just look at this clip 37:03.688 --> 37:06.591 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and come back and talk about it. 37:06.591 --> 37:10.494 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% (slow guitar music) (crowd cheers) 37:10.494 --> 37:11.963 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - [Narrator] In May, 37:11.963 --> 37:15.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Ali began a monthlong tour of African countries. 37:15.466 --> 37:18.169 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% In Accra, the capital of Ghana, 37:18.169 --> 37:19.837 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% thousands gathered at the airport 37:19.837 --> 37:23.107 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% to catch a glimpse of the world's new heavyweight champion. 37:23.107 --> 37:25.376 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (mellow African music) 37:25.376 --> 37:26.811 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Outside his hotel, 37:26.811 --> 37:28.779 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Ali heard a familiar voice. 37:28.779 --> 37:30.948 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Brother Muhammad," called Malcolm X, 37:30.948 --> 37:32.717 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who was on his own overseas tour. 37:33.584 --> 37:36.087 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He greeted Ali enthusiastically. 37:36.087 --> 37:38.222 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "I still love you," he told the boxer. 37:39.624 --> 37:43.327 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "You left the Honorable Elijah Muhammad," Ali said. 37:43.327 --> 37:44.996 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "That was the wrong thing to do." 37:46.764 --> 37:49.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% There was little else to say. 37:49.033 --> 37:50.234 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Malcolm walked away. 37:51.235 --> 37:53.037 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (upbeat trumpet music) 37:53.037 --> 37:56.540 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Ali met with Ghanaian President Kwame Nkrumah, 37:56.540 --> 37:58.175 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% sparred with his brother, Rudy, 37:58.175 --> 37:59.543 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% now known as Rahman, 37:59.543 --> 38:02.680 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% before thousands at a local sports stadium, 38:02.680 --> 38:06.350 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and took every opportunity to engage the admirers 38:06.350 --> 38:08.419 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who turned up everywhere Ali went. 38:08.419 --> 38:09.920 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (upbeat trumpet music) 38:09.920 --> 38:12.556 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He also spoke out against integration in America, 38:12.556 --> 38:15.693 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% advocating for a separate state for Black people, 38:15.693 --> 38:17.928 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and dismissed the sweeping civil rights bill 38:17.928 --> 38:20.364 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% under consideration in the US Congress 38:20.364 --> 38:21.999 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% as counterfeit money. 38:21.999 --> 38:23.267 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (mellow African music) 38:23.267 --> 38:26.070 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Later, he visited Nigeria and Egypt, 38:26.070 --> 38:27.805 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% where he and Herbert Muhammad 38:27.805 --> 38:30.675 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% met with President Gamal Abdel Nasser 38:30.675 --> 38:33.844 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and prayed with 1,500 worshipers 38:33.844 --> 38:36.480 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% at Cairo's Al-Hussain Mosque. 38:36.480 --> 38:38.883 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (upbeat trumpet music) 38:38.883 --> 38:41.452 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The deep affection Africans showered on Ali 38:41.452 --> 38:43.154 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% during his five-week trip 38:43.154 --> 38:45.323 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% showed that his success in the ring 38:45.323 --> 38:47.425 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and outspokenness beyond it 38:47.425 --> 38:50.027 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% had won him an enormous following 38:50.027 --> 38:51.729 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% well beyond the United States. 38:53.197 --> 38:55.232 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% - Well, remember that the African continent, itself, 38:55.232 --> 38:57.735 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% was in the throes of liberation, you know, 38:57.735 --> 39:02.473 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% from colonial status to its liberation time, 39:02.473 --> 39:05.376 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and Muhammad Ali was a figure of liberation. 39:05.376 --> 39:06.644 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (mellow African music) 39:06.644 --> 39:08.512 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Narrator] Before leaving Africa, 39:08.512 --> 39:12.116 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Ali received a cable from his former friend and mentor. 39:12.116 --> 39:14.518 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Because a billion of our people in Africa, 39:14.518 --> 39:17.588 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Asia, and Arabia love you blindly, 39:17.588 --> 39:19.357 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% "you must now be forever aware of 39:19.357 --> 39:22.259 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "your tremendous responsibility to them," Malcolm X wrote. 39:23.427 --> 39:25.229 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "You must never do or say anything 39:25.229 --> 39:27.665 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "that will permit your enemies to distort 39:27.665 --> 39:30.601 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "the beautiful image you have here among our people." 39:31.702 --> 39:33.270 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I, frankly, believe that Cassius 39:33.270 --> 39:36.741 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is in a better position than anyone else to restore the, 39:38.709 --> 39:40.711 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% a sense of racial pride 39:40.711 --> 39:42.246 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to not only our people in this country, 39:42.246 --> 39:43.714 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but all over the world, 39:43.714 --> 39:47.818 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and he is trying his best to live a clean life, 39:47.818 --> 39:49.653 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and project a clean image. 39:49.653 --> 39:51.055 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% But despite this, 39:51.055 --> 39:53.224 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you find the press is constantly trying to paint him 39:53.224 --> 39:55.159 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as something other than what he actually is. 39:55.159 --> 39:55.993 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He doesn't smoke. 39:55.993 --> 39:57.261 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He doesn't drink. 39:57.261 --> 39:58.763 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% In fact, if he was white, 39:58.763 --> 40:01.932 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% they would be referring to him as the all-American boy. 40:01.932 --> 40:02.767 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Wow. 40:06.370 --> 40:08.239 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% So powerful. 40:08.239 --> 40:09.440 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% So powerful. 40:09.440 --> 40:11.008 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I could just keep watching this forever. 40:11.008 --> 40:12.543 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% In fact, Ken, I did. 40:12.543 --> 40:15.646 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I went through the entire documentary series twice. 40:15.646 --> 40:17.114 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - [Ken] Oh. 40:17.114 --> 40:18.749 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - So many parables. 40:18.749 --> 40:22.720 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - You see the great discipline there in Malcolm X. 40:22.720 --> 40:23.988 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Later on in his life, 40:23.988 --> 40:26.257 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% just after the first scene that we showed 40:26.257 --> 40:27.892 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of the lighting of the torch, 40:27.892 --> 40:30.761 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he is trying to take stock of his life 40:30.761 --> 40:33.798 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and trying to understand where he's gone wrong. 40:33.798 --> 40:36.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He's said, "I fit my religion to fit my life," 40:36.700 --> 40:39.570 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and was extraordinarily remorseful 40:39.570 --> 40:43.040 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for the unfaithfulness that he had exhibited 40:43.040 --> 40:46.477 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% towards the, at least three of his wives. 40:46.477 --> 40:50.581 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And he also regretted some of the things he'd said, too, 40:51.615 --> 40:52.883 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% about Joe Frazier, 40:52.883 --> 40:55.586 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and he also felt that he had abandoned Malcolm. 40:55.586 --> 40:57.721 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I think Malcolm's great gift here 40:57.721 --> 41:00.391 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is that he is so open and forgiving. 41:00.391 --> 41:03.461 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He, Malcolm, himself, has had this transformation 41:03.461 --> 41:06.530 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% away from a kind of didactic 41:07.898 --> 41:11.402 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and rigid form that Elijah Muhammad practiced 41:11.402 --> 41:14.205 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to something that was much more embracing and ecumenical, 41:14.205 --> 41:18.776 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and it's a place that Muhammad Ali is going to grow into, 41:18.776 --> 41:21.145 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and it's only going to increase 41:21.145 --> 41:24.348 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% his ability to have this world stature. 41:24.348 --> 41:26.383 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Because he's been so brash, 41:26.383 --> 41:28.152 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because he's said, "I am the greatest," 41:28.152 --> 41:29.386 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% because he's said things 41:29.386 --> 41:32.523 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that Black men are not supposed to say, 41:32.523 --> 41:35.726 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he is known throughout the world already. 41:35.726 --> 41:36.927 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He's, one, the champion. 41:36.927 --> 41:38.162 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% That makes him known, 41:38.162 --> 41:40.764 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but he's beloved because of the way 41:40.764 --> 41:43.234 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he has championed everyone else 41:43.234 --> 41:45.903 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who's ever felt the boot of the man. 41:45.903 --> 41:48.506 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it is an amazing thing that happens 41:48.506 --> 41:51.308 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in this very first international trip, 41:51.308 --> 41:52.576 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that you can't do it, 41:52.576 --> 41:56.347 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and he is going to be pulled now in death 41:56.347 --> 42:00.484 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% towards what Malcolm X had found at the end of his life. 42:00.484 --> 42:02.987 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And, in fact, when Elijah Mohammad dies, 42:02.987 --> 42:07.324 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% his son Wallace begins to embrace a much more open 42:07.324 --> 42:11.161 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and forgiving and tolerant version of Islam, 42:11.161 --> 42:12.863 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% more mainstream Islam, 42:12.863 --> 42:15.165 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% than the kind of rigid thing of the Nation of Islam, 42:15.165 --> 42:18.536 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and that's the Muhammad Ali at the end of his life. 42:18.536 --> 42:20.170 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So what you're seeing at the beginning, 42:20.170 --> 42:22.473 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and in that extraordinary forbearance 42:22.473 --> 42:25.776 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on the part of the rejected Malcolm X, 42:25.776 --> 42:27.811 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who does not have long to live, 42:29.179 --> 42:31.081 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and is gonna be murdered by the Nation of Islam, 42:31.081 --> 42:32.149 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% let me just say that, 42:34.752 --> 42:37.254 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is the arc of the life that's going to take him 42:37.254 --> 42:41.926 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to the kind of sainthood that we celebrate tonight. 42:41.926 --> 42:42.927 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% You know? 42:42.927 --> 42:43.794 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% His message, 42:45.262 --> 42:48.432 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it's a four-letter word that the FCC lets us speak about, 42:48.432 --> 42:50.801 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but we all have a hard time talking about, 42:50.801 --> 42:51.902 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% which is love, 42:51.902 --> 42:53.971 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and that's Muhammad Ali. 42:53.971 --> 42:58.442 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - It's the arc and it's the evolution, 42:58.442 --> 43:00.344 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and Todd, in that clip, right, 43:00.344 --> 43:04.081 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% we're seeing the antecedents, 43:04.081 --> 43:05.816 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the beginning, you know, 43:05.816 --> 43:10.154 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% him being beloved on the world stage, 43:10.154 --> 43:11.555 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as Ken was just talking about, 43:11.555 --> 43:14.425 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and as we're, as I said, starting to see, 43:14.425 --> 43:17.428 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but how does he go on to become 43:17.428 --> 43:21.031 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% such a liberation figure in Africa, 43:21.031 --> 43:24.902 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% so much so that during a time 43:24.902 --> 43:28.138 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% rife with proxy wars, right, 43:28.138 --> 43:31.342 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that Ali becomes his own, 43:31.342 --> 43:34.011 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% his fights become their own 43:34.011 --> 43:36.714 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% kind of proxy war for liberation, 43:36.714 --> 43:39.416 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for race and religious pride and freedom. 43:39.416 --> 43:41.652 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And when you're watching it now, 43:41.652 --> 43:44.121 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% even for control of the Black body, right, 43:44.121 --> 43:47.157 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what Black people can do and say and think, 43:48.792 --> 43:50.761 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% what is he standing in for 43:50.761 --> 43:53.163 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% at these various inflection points 43:53.163 --> 43:57.201 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that so enrage and inspire people 43:57.201 --> 43:59.470 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% so much that they're pouring so much into him? 44:00.871 --> 44:03.240 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - I think (clears throat) several of the things 44:03.240 --> 44:07.811 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that Ken mentioned are, you know, relevant here, 44:07.811 --> 44:12.816 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in terms of making that connection 44:14.251 --> 44:17.054 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% from, you know, national to global. 44:18.422 --> 44:20.724 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And I think, you know, to begin, 44:21.625 --> 44:23.727 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the importance of Malcolm X, 44:23.727 --> 44:28.032 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the connection between Malcolm and Cassius Clay at the time, 44:29.400 --> 44:33.937 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I am reminded of a famous speech Malcolm gave 44:33.937 --> 44:38.075 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% (clears throat) in my hometown of Detroit in 1963 44:38.075 --> 44:40.611 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% called the "Message to the Grass Roots," 44:40.611 --> 44:42.413 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and in the "Message to the Grass Roots," 44:42.413 --> 44:46.183 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Malcolm talks about a conference. 44:47.584 --> 44:52.056 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It took place in Bandung, Indonesia, back in the 1950s, 44:53.457 --> 44:57.161 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that brought together African nations and Asian nations 44:58.562 --> 45:00.731 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and South Asian nations and Latin American nations. 45:00.731 --> 45:03.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What we might now refer to as people of color, 45:03.500 --> 45:06.904 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but people of color from all over the world. 45:06.904 --> 45:10.007 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And in speaking of this, 45:10.007 --> 45:11.642 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% what Malcolm was talking about 45:11.642 --> 45:16.280 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% was the importance of Black people in America 45:16.280 --> 45:20.617 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% seeing themself beyond just America. 45:20.617 --> 45:22.619 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And, of course, if you are familiar with 45:22.619 --> 45:24.888 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "The Autobiography of Malcolm X," 45:24.888 --> 45:26.356 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Malcolm's history, 45:26.356 --> 45:28.992 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he, you know, talks about the experience he has 45:28.992 --> 45:32.262 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when he goes to travel through the Middle East 45:32.262 --> 45:34.064 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and various other places, 45:34.064 --> 45:37.234 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Africa, as, you know, indicated in this clip, 45:37.234 --> 45:42.239 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when he kinda randomly runs into Ali 45:43.373 --> 45:44.308 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% at this moment when there's conflict 45:44.308 --> 45:45.943 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% with the Nation of Islam. 45:45.943 --> 45:47.845 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But I think what's important, 45:47.845 --> 45:49.813 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in addition to talking about, 45:49.813 --> 45:52.049 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you know, African nations', 45:53.751 --> 45:55.853 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% you know, liberation, 45:55.853 --> 45:58.055 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% anti-colonialism, 45:58.055 --> 46:00.057 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you know, the "Third World" phrase 46:00.057 --> 46:02.359 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% we don't use so much anymore, 46:03.727 --> 46:06.663 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you end up in, you know, Vietnam, and the Vietnam War, 46:06.663 --> 46:09.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% which, of course, Ali is very central in being, early on, 46:09.900 --> 46:12.402 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and saying, "I'm not gonna participate." 46:12.402 --> 46:14.772 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But also, when you get into the 1970s 46:14.772 --> 46:17.775 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and you're staging fights in Zaire, 46:17.775 --> 46:20.077 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the former Belgian Congo, 46:20.077 --> 46:23.247 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or you're staging fights in, you know, Manila, 46:23.247 --> 46:24.348 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the Thrilla in Manila, 46:25.516 --> 46:28.218 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, to me, that's what makes Ali, 46:28.218 --> 46:29.920 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% one of the things, there's so many, 46:29.920 --> 46:31.922 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that makes him so important is, 46:31.922 --> 46:33.390 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% he was always global. 46:33.390 --> 46:37.294 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He always represented the disenfranchised, 46:37.294 --> 46:39.129 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the marginalized, 46:39.129 --> 46:40.497 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% the colonized, 46:40.497 --> 46:42.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the former slaves, 46:42.833 --> 46:44.568 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% the little man, 46:44.568 --> 46:45.736 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% the people. 46:45.736 --> 46:47.571 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He was the people's champ, right? 46:48.972 --> 46:50.641 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% The people's choice. 46:51.809 --> 46:54.378 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% This was something he embodied. 46:54.378 --> 46:57.147 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It was not just something he was called. 46:57.147 --> 47:00.050 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, all sorts of personal anecdotes 47:00.050 --> 47:02.986 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% about individual people 47:02.986 --> 47:06.056 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who ran into Ali on the street. 47:07.291 --> 47:08.225 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% You know, for a time, 47:08.225 --> 47:09.893 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he lived here in Los Angeles, 47:11.028 --> 47:13.230 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in the early 1980s, 47:13.230 --> 47:15.098 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I've talked to numerous people 47:16.600 --> 47:21.371 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who ran into him, you know, buying ice cream for his kids. 47:21.371 --> 47:24.474 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And, you know, for somebody like Ali, 47:24.474 --> 47:28.412 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% there's a person coming up to him every five seconds 47:28.412 --> 47:31.281 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% wanting an autograph, wanting a photo. 47:31.281 --> 47:33.450 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, this is the life of a celebrity, 47:33.450 --> 47:34.885 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and he's the biggest of celebrities, 47:34.885 --> 47:36.320 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and people are telling stories about, 47:36.320 --> 47:37.921 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% it made no difference 47:37.921 --> 47:40.224 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% how many people were waiting to talk to him, 47:40.224 --> 47:41.658 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% how many pictures he'd taken. 47:41.658 --> 47:43.427 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It didn't matter. 47:43.427 --> 47:45.462 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He loved being around people, 47:45.462 --> 47:49.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and it's that energy that is pouring out of him 47:49.566 --> 47:52.002 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that makes him, you know, 47:52.002 --> 47:56.240 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% someone that people across the globe can embrace. 47:56.240 --> 47:59.610 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so, I think there's this global dimension to him 47:59.610 --> 48:01.545 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% that started, 48:01.545 --> 48:06.550 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% perhaps, back in the Olympics in 1960. 48:07.651 --> 48:09.086 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But, you know, it's very important 48:09.086 --> 48:13.757 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that he see himself as a Black man, 48:13.757 --> 48:16.593 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but not simply an American Black man, 48:16.593 --> 48:19.663 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but a Black man on the global stage. 48:19.663 --> 48:23.367 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I think in the same way that, you know, 48:23.367 --> 48:25.836 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% say, jazz musicians before him 48:25.836 --> 48:28.472 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% had traveled to places throughout the globe 48:28.472 --> 48:32.309 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and represented Black people from America, 48:32.309 --> 48:35.112 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he kinda embodies that, as well. 48:35.112 --> 48:36.747 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But when you look at his career, 48:36.747 --> 48:39.283 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when you look at his, you know, personality, 48:39.283 --> 48:42.719 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when you look at the circumstances around it, 48:42.719 --> 48:45.055 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I mean, you know, going to Zaire 48:45.055 --> 48:48.992 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and fighting George Foreman in 1974, 48:48.992 --> 48:53.964 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% fighting Foreman and you have Mobutu Sese Seko, 48:53.964 --> 48:56.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Ken deals with all this in the documentary, 48:56.500 --> 48:58.702 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the history of what is Zaire 48:58.702 --> 49:00.871 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but had previously been the Congo, 49:00.871 --> 49:03.473 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% the murdering of Patrice Lumumba, 49:03.473 --> 49:05.909 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there's a whole series of historical events, 49:05.909 --> 49:09.646 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and you can put Muhammad Ali right in the center of them. 49:09.646 --> 49:12.316 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Ferdinand Marcos in the Philippines, 49:12.316 --> 49:14.551 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and America's relationship to the Philippines, 49:14.551 --> 49:16.353 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the Thrilla in Manila. 49:17.254 --> 49:18.655 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% He was global. 49:18.655 --> 49:19.856 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% He was iconic. 49:19.856 --> 49:23.593 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He was a representative of the Third World. 49:23.593 --> 49:25.996 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He was a representative of people of color. 49:26.930 --> 49:28.598 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He was an American. 49:28.598 --> 49:30.367 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He was all these things at once, 49:30.367 --> 49:33.670 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and there's really not a lot of people in history 49:33.670 --> 49:34.905 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% you can say that about, 49:34.905 --> 49:36.807 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and certainly not a lot of boxers, 49:36.807 --> 49:39.042 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or certainly not a lot of athletes. 49:39.042 --> 49:41.511 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Just to kinda tie this up, 49:41.511 --> 49:46.049 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% if you go back to 2016 at his funeral, 49:46.049 --> 49:49.519 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I covered the funeral for CBS that day, 49:49.519 --> 49:51.221 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% so I'm on the air live all day 49:51.221 --> 49:53.190 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I'm talking to George Foreman, 49:53.190 --> 49:56.693 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I'm talking to a series of people connected to him, 49:56.693 --> 49:57.694 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and I just kept saying, 49:57.694 --> 49:59.730 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "When I was growing up, 49:59.730 --> 50:01.598 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "situations like this 50:01.598 --> 50:05.669 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "were reserved for presidents or heads of state. 50:05.669 --> 50:08.672 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "Boxers, athletes, didn't get 50:08.672 --> 50:11.942 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "these sorts of public send-offs." 50:11.942 --> 50:13.043 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% He did. 50:13.043 --> 50:14.945 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And there's a reason he did. 50:14.945 --> 50:18.849 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% A small part of it had to do with his abilities as a boxer. 50:18.849 --> 50:20.317 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - [Ken] Right. 50:20.317 --> 50:24.321 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Much of it had to do with his identity as a global citizen 50:26.456 --> 50:30.360 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who connected all of these forces at the same time. 50:32.262 --> 50:34.264 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - So, Janet, it's interesting because 50:34.264 --> 50:36.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Ali was certainly all those things 50:36.533 --> 50:39.202 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Todd just said he was, 50:39.202 --> 50:42.239 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but he was also a winner, right? 50:43.673 --> 50:45.275 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He was gold medalist, 50:45.275 --> 50:47.577 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% three-time heavyweight champion. 50:47.577 --> 50:49.479 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You, yourself, won three gold medals, 50:49.479 --> 50:50.981 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% broke seven world records 50:50.981 --> 50:53.050 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in three events during your swimming career. 50:53.050 --> 50:57.187 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What is it about winning that gives people 50:58.922 --> 51:02.626 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this extra ability to reach people? 51:02.626 --> 51:06.596 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% How does it change the proportions on the world stage, 51:06.596 --> 51:11.368 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and engender a kind of responsibility 51:11.368 --> 51:13.737 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that you've talked about feeling towards others, 51:13.737 --> 51:15.639 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and that Ali certainly had? 51:17.007 --> 51:19.276 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Well, it's tough to follow Dr. Boyd because that, 51:19.276 --> 51:22.012 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think that really summed it up for me, personally. 51:22.979 --> 51:24.915 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% You know, like I said, 51:24.915 --> 51:27.350 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% when he was holding that torch, 51:27.350 --> 51:29.052 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% it was like he wanted the world, 51:29.052 --> 51:31.855 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it was not his, it was for everyone, right? 51:31.855 --> 51:34.257 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so I, it just, it summed it up so beautifully. 51:34.257 --> 51:35.725 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% So, thank you, Doctor. 51:37.160 --> 51:40.197 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You know, I think, different than winning being important, 51:40.197 --> 51:43.967 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think, of course, Ali liked to win. (chuckles) 51:43.967 --> 51:45.102 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We all like to win. 51:45.102 --> 51:46.937 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We all want to win. 51:48.138 --> 51:50.373 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But, to me, when I speak about Ali, 51:50.373 --> 51:52.109 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think Ali was a champion, 51:52.109 --> 51:53.376 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and I think there's a difference 51:53.376 --> 51:55.011 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% between winning and being a champion. 51:55.011 --> 51:56.813 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so, I think a champion is someone 51:56.813 --> 51:59.783 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who understands they're not gonna win. 51:59.783 --> 52:02.486 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And he didn't win everything, 52:02.486 --> 52:04.020 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and that didn't matter to him 52:04.020 --> 52:05.822 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because yes, it was great to win, 52:05.822 --> 52:07.324 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it was great to puff out your chest 52:07.324 --> 52:09.726 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and receive that medal or that heavyweight belt, 52:09.726 --> 52:12.395 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but it was bigger than winning for him, 52:12.395 --> 52:15.532 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I think that's what athletes learn, 52:15.532 --> 52:18.301 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and are still learning from his story, 52:19.536 --> 52:23.340 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is that winning was a catalyst for him 52:23.340 --> 52:24.741 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to be on the world stage 52:24.741 --> 52:26.810 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and, but it was his message, 52:26.810 --> 52:28.211 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% it was his journey, 52:28.211 --> 52:29.746 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% it was his platform, 52:29.746 --> 52:31.882 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and that evening in Atlanta, 52:31.882 --> 52:33.950 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think when you look at all of the athletes 52:33.950 --> 52:35.552 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that were competing from the world 52:35.552 --> 52:37.254 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that Dr. Boyd is speaking about, right, 52:37.254 --> 52:38.588 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% there, the Olympics, 52:38.588 --> 52:39.656 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% there's no more international sporting event 52:39.656 --> 52:41.391 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% than the Olympic Games, right? 52:41.391 --> 52:43.760 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So you have all these people from all over the world. 52:43.760 --> 52:45.262 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You know, 10% of the athletes 52:45.262 --> 52:47.330 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that participate in the Olympic Games win a medal. 52:47.330 --> 52:48.565 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% 10%. 52:48.565 --> 52:50.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He wasn't speaking to that 10% that night. 52:50.500 --> 52:53.170 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He was speaking to the 90% that don't go home with a medal, 52:53.170 --> 52:55.572 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and he was saying to them, "It's okay." 52:55.572 --> 52:56.406 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Right? 52:56.406 --> 52:57.240 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Show up, 52:57.240 --> 52:58.108 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% be present, 52:58.108 --> 52:59.242 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% find your voice, 52:59.242 --> 53:00.310 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% tell your story, 53:00.310 --> 53:01.578 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% make a difference, right? 53:01.578 --> 53:04.247 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so the winning, to me, 53:05.081 --> 53:06.383 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% he was a champion. 53:06.383 --> 53:07.884 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Yeah, he won. 53:07.884 --> 53:10.220 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He has a lot of medals at home and a lot of belts, 53:10.220 --> 53:13.523 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but it was transcending winning 53:13.523 --> 53:17.327 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that really, I think, for me, personally, 53:17.327 --> 53:19.930 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% helped me realize that it's great to win, 53:19.930 --> 53:21.198 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but there's more to it, 53:21.198 --> 53:25.802 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and that's my vision of Ali with his athleticism 53:25.802 --> 53:28.305 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and his journey as an athlete. 53:28.305 --> 53:29.506 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And as Dr. Boyd said, 53:29.506 --> 53:32.409 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he's, I mean, clearly, so, so much more. 53:33.543 --> 53:36.046 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And poured so much more into that. 53:36.046 --> 53:39.316 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We're gonna to get to the audience questions, 53:39.316 --> 53:41.718 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because, obviously, they're very curious. 53:41.718 --> 53:45.922 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So Lloyd from the audience asks Ken, 53:45.922 --> 53:49.826 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Ken, did you ever feel nervous doing this film? 53:49.826 --> 53:53.430 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "He's the most beloved person on the planet? 53:53.430 --> 53:54.864 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "How did you handle that 53:54.864 --> 53:59.002 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "without giving into the reverence that Ali inspires?" 53:59.002 --> 54:00.470 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And I'll add to that, 54:00.470 --> 54:04.074 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and get your arm around just the bigness of his life? 54:05.208 --> 54:07.711 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Yeah, I think that we've tried to 54:07.711 --> 54:11.181 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% spend most of, you know, our lives, 54:11.181 --> 54:14.484 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% by the whole team sort of biting off more than we can chew 54:14.484 --> 54:16.286 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and learning how to chew it. 54:16.286 --> 54:17.654 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% The biggest thing is fear, 54:17.654 --> 54:19.356 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because when you're taking on, 54:19.356 --> 54:21.024 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% say, all of the Civil War, 54:21.024 --> 54:22.292 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% or all of baseball, 54:22.292 --> 54:24.494 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or someone like Muhammad Ali, 54:24.494 --> 54:26.630 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and I have to agree with Todd 54:26.630 --> 54:30.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that the jazz analogy is really great, 54:30.400 --> 54:33.003 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% 'cause there's really only one other person on the planet 54:33.003 --> 54:34.671 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that's at all like Muhammad Ali, 54:34.671 --> 54:36.439 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and that's Louis Armstrong. 54:36.439 --> 54:39.676 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And he just, he revolutionized music 54:39.676 --> 54:44.381 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the way Ali revolutionized his particular profession, 54:44.381 --> 54:46.283 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and he had a capacious heart, 54:46.283 --> 54:49.719 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and was, in turn, loved across the globe 54:49.719 --> 54:54.591 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in a way that was part of that subtle message of liberation 54:54.591 --> 54:57.527 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that comes along with the thrill of celebrity 54:57.527 --> 54:59.729 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and things like that. 54:59.729 --> 55:02.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You know, we put our pants on one leg at a time. 55:02.966 --> 55:04.868 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We spend years doing it. 55:04.868 --> 55:06.569 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We collect as many photographs 55:06.569 --> 55:08.004 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and as much footage as we can. 55:08.004 --> 55:10.440 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We talk to as many people who are smart, 55:10.440 --> 55:12.275 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and one of them is here. 55:13.109 --> 55:14.744 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We talk to family, 55:14.744 --> 55:16.646 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% two of his four wives, 55:16.646 --> 55:18.114 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% two of his children, 55:18.114 --> 55:20.216 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% a lot of journalists, 55:20.216 --> 55:21.618 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% like Dave Kindred, who you saw, 55:21.618 --> 55:23.987 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who covered him from the beginning to the end. 55:23.987 --> 55:25.455 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Also, Robert Lipsyte. 55:25.455 --> 55:27.791 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% People who've written about him, like David Remnick, 55:27.791 --> 55:29.125 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the poet Wole Soyinka, 55:29.125 --> 55:32.329 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who's written one of the most beautiful poems 55:32.329 --> 55:35.799 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that frames our last episode about Ali, 55:35.799 --> 55:38.868 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% having seen him in a kind of desultory moment 55:38.868 --> 55:42.639 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% at a kind of autograph thing that was not the Olympics. 55:42.639 --> 55:44.074 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It was not the kind of moment 55:44.074 --> 55:46.643 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that Janet had that privilege of being there, 55:46.643 --> 55:48.912 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% where all the love of the world was pouring in 55:48.912 --> 55:51.381 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and all of his love was pouring out. 55:51.381 --> 55:52.749 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% You know, it was just some thing, 55:52.749 --> 55:56.553 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and he wrote this extraordinary poem that exemplifies 55:56.553 --> 55:59.622 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% all of the reasons why we're talking to him. 55:59.622 --> 56:03.793 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, a lot of our sports heroes 56:03.793 --> 56:05.829 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% aren't really heroes, in that regard. 56:05.829 --> 56:07.364 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They're really good at what they do, 56:07.364 --> 56:09.099 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% winning, and even being champions, 56:09.099 --> 56:11.468 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I'm glad that Janet made that distinction, 56:11.468 --> 56:13.103 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but they're not risking everything. 56:13.103 --> 56:15.438 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He risked everything. 56:15.438 --> 56:17.574 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% At the height of his professional career, he said, 56:17.574 --> 56:18.975 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "No, I'm just not gonna do it." 56:18.975 --> 56:21.211 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And he knew he'd get a cushy USO job, 56:21.211 --> 56:24.214 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he'd go and do a few exhibition sparring matches, 56:24.214 --> 56:26.783 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and yet, he said, "No, I'm not gonna do that." 56:26.783 --> 56:28.051 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Three and a half years later, 56:28.051 --> 56:29.719 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% he can come back, 56:29.719 --> 56:34.023 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and he can't beat the champion Joe Frazier the first time, 56:34.023 --> 56:34.991 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% the first time, 56:34.991 --> 56:36.226 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but he keeps at it. 56:36.226 --> 56:40.497 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So it's just going in and understanding 56:40.497 --> 56:43.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that we're not looking for hagiography hero worship. 56:43.900 --> 56:47.537 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We're not looking for some kind of simplistic revisionism. 56:47.537 --> 56:50.373 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We're looking to see a complicated human being, 56:50.373 --> 56:54.210 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and saying the word "complicated human being" is redundant. 56:54.210 --> 56:56.146 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So we're looking for that undertow, 56:56.146 --> 56:58.381 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the contradictions that are inherent 56:58.381 --> 57:00.016 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in each and every one of us. 57:00.016 --> 57:02.786 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And the reason why we have mythic figures, 57:02.786 --> 57:03.987 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% iconic heroes, 57:03.987 --> 57:06.856 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the hero's journey that Muhammad Ali takes, 57:06.856 --> 57:09.292 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is because all of their tensions, 57:09.292 --> 57:11.094 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% all of the contradictions within them, 57:11.094 --> 57:14.631 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% are writ so large that they might be, 57:15.498 --> 57:17.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% just, perhaps, if we're aware, 57:17.600 --> 57:20.537 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a little bit helpful for the rest of us, 57:20.537 --> 57:22.639 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in which we play out those contradictions 57:22.639 --> 57:25.442 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in a much more cramped and narrow space. 57:25.442 --> 57:28.244 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And to me, he's about how you wake up. 57:28.244 --> 57:30.580 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You know, Janet, you spoke so, that was so beautiful 57:30.580 --> 57:33.583 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% about being there and understanding what he understood, 57:33.583 --> 57:34.517 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and that silent thing. 57:34.517 --> 57:36.319 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I met him, Todd, in LA once. 57:36.319 --> 57:38.555 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Never said a word to him, in a coffee shop. 57:38.555 --> 57:40.423 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, I'd gone in to get some tea, 57:40.423 --> 57:41.658 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% turned around, 57:41.658 --> 57:43.092 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and he was the only person in a diner or, 57:43.092 --> 57:44.928 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you know, coffee shop or whatever, 57:44.928 --> 57:47.831 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and we just had this wordless conversation. 57:47.831 --> 57:51.868 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It was just extraordinary to be in his presence. 57:51.868 --> 57:53.903 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It was like, as Remnick said, 57:53.903 --> 57:55.138 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% it was like the Buddha. 57:55.138 --> 57:57.740 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, and I didn't need anything to do 57:57.740 --> 58:01.144 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but just be as present as I could possibly do. 58:01.144 --> 58:03.446 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And that, no pun intended, 58:03.446 --> 58:06.049 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is the greatest present he gave us. 58:06.049 --> 58:08.651 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Boxing, as Rasheda, his daughter, says, 58:08.651 --> 58:10.620 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% this much, right? 58:10.620 --> 58:13.690 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The rest is this extraordinary heart 58:13.690 --> 58:18.695 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that just continued to grow and grow and grow. 58:20.029 --> 58:21.264 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - And Todd, a final question from the audience, 58:21.264 --> 58:23.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I'm gonna take a moderator's privilege 58:23.700 --> 58:25.368 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to kind of add onto it, 58:25.368 --> 58:29.305 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because Ken just talked about contradictions. 58:29.305 --> 58:32.175 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I want to talk about contradictions and evolutions. 58:32.175 --> 58:33.676 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% First of all, 58:33.676 --> 58:37.447 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as this liberation figure and being celebrated in Africa, 58:37.447 --> 58:41.117 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I was struck by how a lot of the people, 58:41.117 --> 58:43.219 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the multitudes coming out to see him, 58:43.219 --> 58:48.124 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% were phenotypically closer to a Joe Frazier, right? 58:48.124 --> 58:52.862 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so, we have to hold that intention, 58:52.862 --> 58:56.132 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in terms of this liberation figure 58:56.132 --> 59:00.403 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% also espousing and talking in these very ugly ways, 59:00.403 --> 59:03.973 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and Todd Stevens asks you, 59:03.973 --> 59:05.608 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Tell us about the cultural impact 59:05.608 --> 59:08.578 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "of Ali beating Superman to a pulp 59:08.578 --> 59:10.480 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "in the 40-year-old DC Comic book, 59:10.480 --> 59:13.316 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "'Superman vs. Muhammad Ali,' that's a collector's item," 59:13.316 --> 59:16.219 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and that certainly represents an evolution, right? 59:16.219 --> 59:18.087 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I mean, a collector's item, 59:18.087 --> 59:21.524 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% him beating, you know, American Superman. 59:21.524 --> 59:25.094 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So, Todd, explain to me both of those things, 59:25.094 --> 59:27.797 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% these notions of contradictions, evolutions, 59:27.797 --> 59:30.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% when it comes to Muhammad Ali. 59:30.400 --> 59:32.569 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Well, I think, you know, 59:35.171 --> 59:37.874 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when Ken said, "a complicated human being 59:37.874 --> 59:40.977 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "is a contradiction in terms," 59:42.378 --> 59:43.713 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that's so true. (chuckles) 59:43.713 --> 59:45.481 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I mean, you know, human being, 59:45.481 --> 59:48.318 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that assumes, we're all very complicated, 59:48.318 --> 59:50.520 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but you need to say complicated, 59:50.520 --> 59:53.489 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because people don't always make that connection. 59:53.489 --> 59:56.225 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But I think that's a perfect way of describing it. 59:57.927 --> 01:00:00.163 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You know, Ali is a human being. 01:00:00.163 --> 01:00:03.099 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He was not a cartoon character. 01:00:03.099 --> 01:00:04.634 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He was not a character 01:00:04.634 --> 01:00:07.770 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that a screenwriter wrote to put in a movie. 01:00:07.770 --> 01:00:09.539 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% He was a person. 01:00:09.539 --> 01:00:12.442 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And, you know, I mean, we talked earlier about 01:00:12.442 --> 01:00:16.713 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a human being dealing with illness, right? 01:00:16.713 --> 01:00:18.047 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% That's human. 01:00:18.047 --> 01:00:20.984 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% To see him with Janet Evans on that stage, 01:00:20.984 --> 01:00:22.719 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% we saw humanity. 01:00:22.719 --> 01:00:23.653 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - [Ken] Right. 01:00:23.653 --> 01:00:25.088 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Not always pretty, right? 01:00:26.756 --> 01:00:29.292 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Whole lot easier to see him, 01:00:29.292 --> 01:00:30.793 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you know, bouncing around the ring 01:00:30.793 --> 01:00:32.662 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% after he beat Sonny Liston. 01:00:32.662 --> 01:00:34.297 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% That's a lot more uplifting 01:00:34.297 --> 01:00:36.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% than to see him standing there shaking, right? 01:00:36.366 --> 01:00:37.934 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% But that's real. 01:00:39.002 --> 01:00:40.269 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% On the same token, 01:00:41.204 --> 01:00:43.239 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you look at this scenario, 01:00:44.607 --> 01:00:47.577 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% particularly involving Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier, 01:00:47.577 --> 01:00:49.245 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and I want to go back to 01:00:49.245 --> 01:00:52.849 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the point Janet Evans was making about, you know, 01:00:53.950 --> 01:00:56.853 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% winning, being a champion, distinctions. 01:00:58.254 --> 01:01:02.358 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Arguably, one of Ali's greatest fights is a fight he lost, 01:01:02.358 --> 01:01:06.295 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and that is that fight in the year Janet Evans was born. 01:01:06.295 --> 01:01:08.731 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I was a young kid, 01:01:08.731 --> 01:01:10.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but in a lot of ways, 01:01:10.166 --> 01:01:14.470 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% 1971, for me, is the beginning of the universe, 01:01:14.470 --> 01:01:17.974 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because it's my discovery of Muhammad Ali 01:01:17.974 --> 01:01:19.475 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and the lead-up to the fight. 01:01:19.475 --> 01:01:21.577 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I just keep seeing this guy on television 01:01:21.577 --> 01:01:23.913 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and he's jumping out of the television 01:01:23.913 --> 01:01:26.449 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% for me, this seven-year-old kid, 01:01:26.449 --> 01:01:28.885 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I remember my parents were, like, 01:01:28.885 --> 01:01:31.821 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% going to watch the fight on closed-circuit. 01:01:31.821 --> 01:01:34.924 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They got dressed up and it was a big deal, 01:01:34.924 --> 01:01:37.493 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and they came back that night and I wanted to know who won. 01:01:37.493 --> 01:01:40.463 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I was up way later than I should have been. 01:01:40.463 --> 01:01:43.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They told me Ali lost and it broke my heart. 01:01:43.266 --> 01:01:45.034 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% How could he, how could this guy lose? 01:01:45.034 --> 01:01:46.569 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I'm seven years old. 01:01:46.569 --> 01:01:49.706 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I didn't know very much about boxing, Joe Frazier. 01:01:49.706 --> 01:01:51.641 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I didn't know much about anything. 01:01:51.641 --> 01:01:52.942 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I'm a seven-year-old kid 01:01:52.942 --> 01:01:55.845 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who's been captivated by this man's persona. 01:01:55.845 --> 01:01:57.380 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "No, he did not lose. 01:01:57.380 --> 01:01:58.781 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "Don't tell me that. 01:01:58.781 --> 01:02:00.817 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "That's not possible," right? 01:02:00.817 --> 01:02:02.151 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But you're in that moment. 01:02:03.453 --> 01:02:04.420 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Later, 01:02:05.455 --> 01:02:07.323 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% many years later, 01:02:07.323 --> 01:02:09.425 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I'm talking to my father, 01:02:09.425 --> 01:02:11.394 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who introduced me to all this, 01:02:11.394 --> 01:02:15.264 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and we're talking about the Frazier fight, 01:02:15.264 --> 01:02:16.632 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and my father says to me, 01:02:16.632 --> 01:02:19.602 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "You know, I really didn't like 01:02:19.602 --> 01:02:23.639 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "the way Ali went after Joe Frazier." 01:02:23.639 --> 01:02:25.575 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He goes, "I understood he was promoting the fight 01:02:25.575 --> 01:02:26.843 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "and he wanted to sell it. 01:02:26.843 --> 01:02:30.279 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "But the things he was saying about Frazier, 01:02:30.279 --> 01:02:33.216 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "you know, if you're in a barbershop 01:02:33.216 --> 01:02:35.084 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "and two guys are having an argument 01:02:35.084 --> 01:02:36.085 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "and they say those things, 01:02:36.085 --> 01:02:37.186 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "maybe it's funny, 01:02:37.186 --> 01:02:38.621 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "maybe you laugh. 01:02:38.621 --> 01:02:40.490 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "The public didn't need to hear that." 01:02:40.490 --> 01:02:44.360 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Ali went after Joe Frazier in a particularly racialized way. 01:02:44.360 --> 01:02:47.330 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He talked about his features, his physical features, 01:02:48.531 --> 01:02:50.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you know, which you referred to, Lonnae. 01:02:50.466 --> 01:02:52.401 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He talked about his physical features. 01:02:52.401 --> 01:02:53.903 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He called him dumb. 01:02:53.903 --> 01:02:56.038 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He talked about him, I think I say this in the film, 01:02:56.038 --> 01:02:57.807 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he talked about him the way 01:02:57.807 --> 01:03:01.110 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% racist white people would talk about Black people. 01:03:01.110 --> 01:03:02.311 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But this is Muhammad Ali. 01:03:02.311 --> 01:03:04.147 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This is not a racist white person saying it. 01:03:04.147 --> 01:03:07.183 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, in some ways it almost gives people license 01:03:07.183 --> 01:03:09.452 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to say the kinda things he's saying 01:03:09.452 --> 01:03:11.053 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% because he's saying it, 01:03:12.021 --> 01:03:13.489 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and he's so charismatic. 01:03:14.891 --> 01:03:17.059 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Something you notice, though, when you watch this film, 01:03:17.059 --> 01:03:20.363 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I've had the privilege of watching it multiple times, 01:03:20.363 --> 01:03:24.567 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% there's a different Ali in the lead-up to the fight 01:03:25.802 --> 01:03:27.537 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% than there is after the fight. 01:03:28.538 --> 01:03:30.106 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Before every fight, 01:03:30.106 --> 01:03:31.507 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he's gonna sell the fight. 01:03:31.507 --> 01:03:34.243 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He was strongly influenced by wrestling, 01:03:34.243 --> 01:03:38.147 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% particularly a wrestler known as Gorgeous George. 01:03:38.147 --> 01:03:40.950 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He said he recognized how Gorgeous George 01:03:40.950 --> 01:03:44.120 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% could become this kinda hated figure, 01:03:44.120 --> 01:03:47.590 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and people would pay money to come and see him lose. 01:03:47.590 --> 01:03:49.592 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He put his own twist on that. 01:03:49.592 --> 01:03:52.461 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But if you watch Muhammad Ali after a fight, 01:03:52.461 --> 01:03:54.831 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he's one of the most humble people in the world, 01:03:54.831 --> 01:03:57.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I don't care who he's fighting. 01:03:57.266 --> 01:03:59.035 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% The contrast is amazing, 01:03:59.035 --> 01:04:01.237 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and you can see this throughout the documentary. 01:04:01.237 --> 01:04:02.505 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Before the fight, 01:04:02.505 --> 01:04:06.509 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he's gonna use all sorts of slurs and criticisms 01:04:07.944 --> 01:04:10.980 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and everything he can to get under his opponent's skin, 01:04:10.980 --> 01:04:12.515 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and after the fight, 01:04:12.515 --> 01:04:14.150 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% we're not promoting it anymore. 01:04:14.150 --> 01:04:15.618 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He's gonna show the humanity. 01:04:15.618 --> 01:04:19.488 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So I think what we have to look at is the fact that Ali, 01:04:19.488 --> 01:04:22.124 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and Ken mentioned this earlier, 01:04:22.124 --> 01:04:26.429 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% later in his life, said he had two prominent regrets: 01:04:26.429 --> 01:04:29.131 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% his relationship with Malcolm X, 01:04:29.131 --> 01:04:34.136 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and the way in which he talked about Joe Frazier. 01:04:35.304 --> 01:04:37.306 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The problem is, Joe Frazier, great boxer, 01:04:37.306 --> 01:04:39.308 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and if we're just talking about boxing, 01:04:39.308 --> 01:04:40.910 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% one of the great heavyweights. 01:04:41.777 --> 01:04:43.980 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Joe Frazier was not well spoken. 01:04:43.980 --> 01:04:46.349 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He was not charismatic. 01:04:46.349 --> 01:04:47.583 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% He was not Ali. 01:04:47.583 --> 01:04:48.684 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, that's an understatement. 01:04:48.684 --> 01:04:50.853 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Who is, right? 01:04:50.853 --> 01:04:52.989 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I felt like Ali took advantage of Joe Frazier, 01:04:52.989 --> 01:04:54.323 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and he took advantage of the fact that 01:04:54.323 --> 01:04:56.993 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he couldn't keep up with him in that way. 01:04:56.993 --> 01:04:58.361 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Nobody could! 01:04:58.361 --> 01:05:01.530 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But Joe Frazier certainly couldn't do it. 01:05:01.530 --> 01:05:03.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% George Foreman, in 1974, 01:05:03.733 --> 01:05:07.670 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is a somewhat less sympathetic character, to me, 01:05:07.670 --> 01:05:10.673 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% than Joe Frazier was in 1971. 01:05:10.673 --> 01:05:15.678 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But what you have is a figure in Ali who is very popular, 01:05:16.412 --> 01:05:17.914 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% very charismatic, 01:05:17.914 --> 01:05:20.149 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and there are moments when he uses his powers for evil 01:05:20.149 --> 01:05:24.120 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as opposed to using his powers for good. 01:05:24.120 --> 01:05:26.989 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That is probably something that can, at some level, 01:05:26.989 --> 01:05:28.891 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% be said about all of us. 01:05:28.891 --> 01:05:29.725 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - [Ken] Right. 01:05:29.725 --> 01:05:30.660 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right? 01:05:30.660 --> 01:05:32.028 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% That's the humanity of it. 01:05:32.028 --> 01:05:34.130 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% So when you look at him, 01:05:34.130 --> 01:05:37.967 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it's not about, you know, celebrating a saint. 01:05:37.967 --> 01:05:42.972 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's about celebrating a really compelling human being, 01:05:44.440 --> 01:05:46.475 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% warts and all. 01:05:46.475 --> 01:05:51.480 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so, you can't just talk about winning boxing matches, 01:05:52.081 --> 01:05:53.649 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% or the rhymes, 01:05:53.649 --> 01:05:55.584 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or how charismatic he was. 01:05:55.584 --> 01:05:57.386 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You also have to talk about 01:05:57.386 --> 01:05:59.655 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the fact that this was a human being, 01:05:59.655 --> 01:06:01.057 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and like all human beings, 01:06:01.057 --> 01:06:03.059 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% there are things he did that, 01:06:03.059 --> 01:06:04.994 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% perhaps given the opportunity, 01:06:04.994 --> 01:06:06.529 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he wouldn't do a second time. 01:06:08.230 --> 01:06:09.465 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Well said. 01:06:09.465 --> 01:06:11.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And because this is the 25th anniversary 01:06:11.233 --> 01:06:12.068 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of the torch lighting, 01:06:12.068 --> 01:06:13.235 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I would be remiss, 01:06:13.235 --> 01:06:14.403 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% we gotta close out, 01:06:14.403 --> 01:06:15.905 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% but Janet, 01:06:16.839 --> 01:06:18.274 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I have a question, 01:06:18.274 --> 01:06:22.011 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and Richard from the audience echoes that question. 01:06:22.011 --> 01:06:24.513 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% When did you find out 01:06:24.513 --> 01:06:28.484 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that you were going to hand the torch to Muhammad Ali, 01:06:28.484 --> 01:06:32.955 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and what was, like, what was your self-talk? (chuckles) 01:06:32.955 --> 01:06:35.291 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% (mumbles) What's happening? (chuckles) 01:06:35.291 --> 01:06:38.094 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - (chuckles) I found out the night before at midnight, 01:06:38.094 --> 01:06:39.862 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% during our rehearsal, 01:06:40.896 --> 01:06:43.399 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and Ali had rehearsed prior to me, 01:06:43.399 --> 01:06:45.301 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% so I only found out, as mentioned, 01:06:45.301 --> 01:06:47.636 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because he had continued to drop it, 01:06:47.636 --> 01:06:49.438 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and Billy Payne had said to me, 01:06:49.438 --> 01:06:51.307 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "This is the plan if he drops it," right? 01:06:51.307 --> 01:06:53.209 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Otherwise, we're not gonna tell you." 01:06:53.209 --> 01:06:55.144 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And I was swimmer, all right? 01:06:55.144 --> 01:06:56.278 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I can't run. 01:06:57.613 --> 01:07:00.016 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm just like, "Wait, I have to run 01:07:00.016 --> 01:07:00.983 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "all the way around his track, 01:07:00.983 --> 01:07:02.518 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "up these three long ramps, 01:07:02.518 --> 01:07:04.487 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "and Muhammad Ali's gonna be waiting for me?" (chuckles) 01:07:04.487 --> 01:07:07.456 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Like, so my self-talk wasn't very good, right? 01:07:07.456 --> 01:07:12.461 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It was very, I was very, clearly very worried, 01:07:13.195 --> 01:07:14.363 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but I will tell you, 01:07:14.363 --> 01:07:16.399 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when I got up there and I saw him, 01:07:16.399 --> 01:07:18.234 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I knew it was gonna be okay. 01:07:18.234 --> 01:07:21.303 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It just, was just, it was, 01:07:21.303 --> 01:07:22.538 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I just knew it was gonna be okay. 01:07:22.538 --> 01:07:24.106 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% And it was, so- 01:07:24.106 --> 01:07:25.341 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - It certainly was, 01:07:25.341 --> 01:07:27.376 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and he just gave you that strength. 01:07:29.912 --> 01:07:31.113 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I just want to thank you. 01:07:31.113 --> 01:07:32.348 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% It's so funny, 01:07:32.348 --> 01:07:34.550 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I feel like we've barely scratched the surface, 01:07:34.550 --> 01:07:35.684 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and we've been here- 01:07:35.684 --> 01:07:37.219 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - We've barely scratched the surface. 01:07:37.219 --> 01:07:41.557 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - There's everything to say about him centering Africa, 01:07:41.557 --> 01:07:44.126 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about the ways that he still continues 01:07:44.126 --> 01:07:45.961 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to unfold on the world stage. 01:07:45.961 --> 01:07:46.796 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I'll hang around. 01:07:46.796 --> 01:07:48.330 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Out of all of you, 01:07:48.330 --> 01:07:51.734 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I probably have the least to do right now, you know. 01:07:51.734 --> 01:07:52.968 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I'm sorta good, 01:07:52.968 --> 01:07:55.538 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but I do want to go ahead and wrap up, 01:07:55.538 --> 01:07:58.808 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and thank the audience at home for joining us. 01:07:58.808 --> 01:07:59.909 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Thank you, Todd. 01:07:59.909 --> 01:08:01.811 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Thank you, Janet. 01:08:01.811 --> 01:08:03.879 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And congratulations, again, Ken, 01:08:03.879 --> 01:08:07.516 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and thank you for such a singular look 01:08:07.516 --> 01:08:10.119 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% at this, at the life of Muhammad Ali. 01:08:10.119 --> 01:08:11.620 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, you know, the other anniversary, 01:08:11.620 --> 01:08:13.923 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it's 25 years since the lighting of the torch, 01:08:13.923 --> 01:08:16.392 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and when we started, it was almost exactly. 01:08:16.392 --> 01:08:20.663 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It is now almost exactly two months from now, 01:08:20.663 --> 01:08:24.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% 8:00 Eastern time on September 19th, 01:08:24.366 --> 01:08:27.103 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that PBS will begin broadcasting this series, 01:08:27.103 --> 01:08:28.971 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it'll be available for streaming, 01:08:28.971 --> 01:08:31.207 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but it'll run the next four nights, 01:08:31.207 --> 01:08:33.242 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% if you're still wedded to broadcast television, 01:08:33.242 --> 01:08:37.279 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and available for streaming exactly two months from now. 01:08:37.279 --> 01:08:39.115 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so, I really hope that, 01:08:39.115 --> 01:08:41.617 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because it's impossible to scratch the surface, 01:08:41.617 --> 01:08:44.086 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% nor did we, in eight hours, 01:08:45.521 --> 01:08:48.357 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that we hope that you'll all join us and watch it, 01:08:48.357 --> 01:08:51.760 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and see Todd in all his magnificence, 01:08:51.760 --> 01:08:53.195 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and Muhammad Ali, 01:08:53.195 --> 01:08:58.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and see you, too, Janet, running up, expertly, those ramps, 01:08:59.068 --> 01:09:01.403 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and to begin to dive deeper 01:09:01.403 --> 01:09:05.207 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% into this most interesting of 01:09:05.207 --> 01:09:08.477 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% complicated, redundant human being. 01:09:08.477 --> 01:09:11.947 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - And, before that, let me just say, 01:09:11.947 --> 01:09:14.583 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% please be on the lookout for two more installments 01:09:14.583 --> 01:09:16.418 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in our "Conversations" series. 01:09:16.418 --> 01:09:20.322 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We've got "Ali, Race & Religion," September 9, 01:09:20.322 --> 01:09:25.327 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and "Ali, Activism & the Modern Athlete" on September 14. 01:09:26.896 --> 01:09:30.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% So lots of other ways to continue to get into the Ali story. 01:09:30.933 --> 01:09:34.570 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Please sign up for those events at pbs.org/alievents. 01:09:36.005 --> 01:09:39.542 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And, as Ken said, please do tune in to "Muhammad Ali," 01:09:39.542 --> 01:09:42.711 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a film by Ken Burns, Sarah Burns, and David McMahon 01:09:42.711 --> 01:09:44.346 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that we're so grateful they did, 01:09:44.346 --> 01:09:47.483 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and premiering, again, September 19 on PBS. 01:09:48.417 --> 01:09:50.019 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Thank you all. 01:09:50.019 --> 01:09:51.420 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Thank you, Lonnae. 01:09:51.420 --> 01:09:53.455 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Thank you, Janet, Todd. 01:09:53.455 --> 01:09:54.290 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Thanks.