- [Narrator] He was
bigger than boxing.

- [Ali] I am the greatest.

- [Narrator] He was
larger than life.

- [Man] His magnetism
just was amazing.

Who is this guy?

- [Man] He was a revolutionary.

He was a groundbreaker.

- And ain't nobody
gonna stop me.

- [Narrator] Ken Burns
captures an intimate story

of victory, defeat,
and determination.

- The price of
freedom comes high.

I have faith,

but I am free.

- [Narrator] "Muhammad Ali,"

tune in or stream,

start Sunday September 19th
at 8/7 Central only on PBS.

- Good evening,

and welcome to our second
event in our discussion series,

"Conversations on Muhammad Ali,"

presented by PBS and
ESPN's The Undefeated.

I'm Sylvia Bugg,

Chief Programming
Executive at PBS.

25 years ago today in Atlanta,

an ailing Muhammad Ali,

who was physically suffering
from Parkinson's disease,

surprised the world

when he took the Olympic
torch from Janet Evans,

one of our guests this evening,

and lit the Olympic cauldron.

It was a historic moment.

Nearly 40 years earlier at
the Rome Olympics in 1960,

Ali stepped onto
the world stage,

taking home the gold.

The 18-year-old Ali easily
won all four of his fights.

He never left the world stage,

the topic of our
conversation this evening.

Many of his fights took
place in other countries:

the UK,

Canada,

West Germany,

Switzerland,

Japan,

Ireland,

Indonesia,

Zaire,

Malaysia,

the Philippines,
and the Bahamas.

But even beyond boxing,

he was perhaps, during
his long career,

the most famous American,

drawing crowds
wherever he traveled,

but equally, inspiring
young people across borders.

And while Ali was an
American through and through,

he was also international
in perspective,

recognizing and speaking
about his bond to Africa

as an African American.

Ali often said,

"I am African."

Africa meant so much to him,

but as others have commented,

he meant even more to Africa.

This September, PBS is
delighted to present

the latest from Ken
Burns, Sarah Burns,

David McMahon and their team,

a four-part documentary
series on the global icon,

Muhammad Ali.

This series takes us
deep into the life

of one of the most indelible
figures of the 20th century,

showing us the true
nature of the man

who called himself "the
greatest" and proved it.

The discussion will explore
how Ali understood the world,

and how the world embraced him,

leading up to that
extraordinary moment

when the Olympic
medalist, Janet Evans,

handed him the torch
in Atlanta in 1996.

Joining Janet
Evans and Ken Burns

are Dr. Todd Boyd,

professor of race and culture

at the University of
Southern California,

and ESPN and The Undefeated
senior writer, Lonnae O'Neal,

who will moderate this
evening's conversation.

We will begin the discussion

with the introduction
to the film.

Thank you for joining
us this evening,

and don't forget to tune into
the premiere of "Muhammad Ali"

on September 19th at 8:00
pm Eastern time on PBS.

- [Muhammad] You
want some breakfast?

- [Child] I want
some Corn Flakes.

- Can I have some
of your Corn Flakes?

Oh, I don't want none.

I won't take none,
I won't take none.

I won't eat none if
you don't want me to.

Ooh, look at that pretty horsey!

- Where?
- Is that a white horse?

See?

Now, stand up, look over there.

Stand up, you gotta stand up.

Over that building.

See the big, look, there he is!

(utensil clangs)

(hand slaps)

What?

(man chuckles)

What's wrong?

(crowd cheers)

- [Crowd] Ali! Ali! Ali! Ali!

- My earliest memories
that I can think of

as a child with my father

are walking through airports

and being in crowds,

and feeling in my, the
vibrations of people's clapping

and shouts in my chest,

and just looking at my dad,

you know, like,
who is this person?

(crowd cheers)

And it was all the
time, anywhere we went.

"You're the greatest,
we love you!"

And the clapping,
and, "Muhammad!"

- (speaks foreign language)

(crowd repeats)

(speaks foreign language)

- [Hana] And I loved
feeling all the energy

and the love that he felt.

(crowd chants)

- We now think of Muhammad
Ali as this vulnerable guy

lighting the torch in Atlanta,

and everybody on
the globe loves him.

Black people like
him, white people.

He's a universal hero,

like, but almost
in a religious way,

like the Buddha,

but when he was in the
midst of his career,

and not just in the early bit,

he was incredibly divisive.
(crowd jeers)

- Boo, yell and
scream, throw peanuts,

but whatever you do,

pay to get in.

- People hated him.

Whether it was
along racial lines,

class lines,

Vietnam lines,

political lines,

religious lines,

or they just couldn't stand him,

and people, of course,
said the opposite,

and this was, "I
loved him, loved him."

But you had an
opinion about him.

(suspenseful music)

(buzzer sounds)
- What's my name, huh?

What's my name?

He can't do battle!

It's gonna take a
good man to whup me!

You can look at me,

I'm more than a confident.

I can't beat me.

I had 180 amateur fights,

22 professional fights,

and I'm pretty as a girl.

Look how pretty I am.

(crowd murmurs)

My long, trim legs
and my beautiful arms

and a pretty nose and mouth.

I know I'm a pretty man.

I know I'm pretty.

You don't have to
tell me I'm pretty.

I'm cocky, I'm proud.

Never talk about
who's gonna stop me,

'cause ain't nobody
gonna stop me!

I say what I want to say.

Ain't no more big niggers
talking like this.

(upbeat music)

- He was a pioneer.

He was a revolutionary.

He was a groundbreaker.

A guy known simply
as "The Greatest."

- I am the greatest!

I've wrastled with alligators,

I've tussled with a whale,

I done handcuffed lightning
and put thunder in jail.

You know I'm bad.

Back off of me, man.

Back off of me, man!

I can drown a drink of water

and kill a dead tree.

This will be no contest.

Wait 'til you see Muhammad Ali.

♪ I'm a wade, I'm a wave ♪

- To tap that hutzpah,

and to be a Black man in America

was just, it was outlandish.

(crowd cheers)

- Muhammad means
"worthy of all praises,"

and Ali means "most high."

And I just don't think I
should go 10,000 miles in there

and shoot some Black people
that never called me nigger.

I just can't shoot 'em.

I always wondered why Miss
America was always white.

Santa Claus was white.

White Swan Soap,
King White Soap,

White Cloud tissue paper,

and everything bad was black.

Black cat was the bad luck,

and if I threaten you,

I'm gonna blackmail you.

(audience laughs)

"So Mama, why don't
they call it whitemail?

"They lie, too."

- I loved being around him.

I loved being
around Muhammad Ali.

- [Muhammad] You gonna
float like a butterfly

and sting like a bee.

- [Both] Ahh!

- Rumble, young man, rumble.

- [Both] Ahh!

- [Muhammad] The price
of freedom runs high.

I have paid, but I am free.

♪ Freedom, freedom,
I can't move ♪

♪ Freedom, cut me loose ♪

- [Announcer] The winner is,

and still heavyweight
champion of the world!

(audience chants)

- [Muhammad] I'm the
greatest of all time.

Of all time!

♪ Rot in hell ♪

♪ Hey, I'ma keep running ♪

♪ 'Cause a winner don't
quit on themselves ♪

(upbeat music)
(crowd roars)

(slow jazz music)

- [Narrator] He called
himself "The Greatest,"

and then proved it
to the entire world.

He was a master at what is
called the sweet science,

the brutal and sometimes
beautiful art of boxing.

Heavyweight champion
at just 22 years old,

he wrote his own rules in
the ring and in his life,

infuriating his critics,

baffling his opponents,

and riveting millions of fans.

(slow jazz music)

At the height of the
civil rights movement,

he joined a separatist
religious sect

whose leader would, for a time,

dominate both his personal
life and his boxing career.

He spoke his mind and
stood on principle,

even when it cost
him his livelihood.

He redefined Black manhood,

yet belittled his greatest rival

using the racist language
of the Jim Crow South

in which he had been raised.

(crowd murmurs)

Banished for his beliefs,

he returned to
boxing an underdog,

reclaimed his title twice,

and became the most
famous man on Earth.

He craved adulation
his whole life,

seeking crowds on
street corners,

in hotel lobbies,

on airport tarmacs,

everywhere he went,

and reveled in the
uninhibited joy

he brought each adoring fan.

(slow jazz music)

He earned a massive fortune,

spent it freely,

and gave generously to family,
friends, even strangers.

Anyone in need.

"Service to others,"
he often said,

"is the rent you pay for
your room here on Earth."

(slow jazz music)

Even after his body
began to betray him

and his brain had
absorbed too many blows,

he fought on,

unable to go without
the attention and drama

that accompanied each bout.

(slow jazz music)

Later, slowed and silenced by
a cruel and crippling disease,

he found refuge in his faith,

becoming a symbol of peace
and hope on every continent.

(slow jazz music)

"Muhammad Ali was," the
novelist Norman Mailer wrote,

"the very spirit of
the 20th century."

(slow jazz music)

- I'm always going
to be one Black one

who got big on your
white televisions,

on your white newspapers,

on your satellites,

million dollar checks,

and still look you in your
face and tell you the truth,

and 100% stay with and
represent my people,

and not leave 'em and sell
'em out because I'm rich,

and stay with 'em.

That was my purpose.

I'm here,

and I'm showing the world
that you can be here

and still free,

and stay yourself,

and get respect from the world.

(buzzer sounds)

- All right, we are all here.

Hi, everyone.

Can you hear me?

We're all good?

Hi, everyone,

I'm Lonnae O'Neal
with The Undefeated,

and I am delighted
to be here tonight

for our conversation, "Ali
On the World's Stage."

I'm joined in this virtual
space by our illustrious panel.

Ken Burns, whose 40
years of filmmaking

has given us some of
the most revealing

and acclaimed historical
documentaries ever made,

and who now brings us
this sweeping new look

at the life and meaning
of Muhammad Ali.

Ken, thank you for being here,

and for making such
a monumental film.

- Thank you, Lonnae.

- We have Todd Boyd,

aka "the Notorious PhD."

(Ken chuckles)

He is the Katherine and
Frank Price Endowed Chair

for the Study of Race
and Popular Culture,

as well as professor of
cinema and media studies

at the USC School
of Cinematic Arts.

Dr. Boyd shares his insights

in the Muhammad Ali documentary,

and we're looking forward to
hearing his thoughts tonight.

Thank you so much, Dr. Boyd.

- Thank you.

- We are also very
lucky to be joined by

five-time Olympic
medalist Janet Evans.

She's the chief athlete officer

of the Los Angeles
2028 Olympic Committee,

and it was Evans who passed
the Olympic flame to Ali

at the opening ceremony
of the Atlanta 1996 Games.

Janet, thank you so
much for being here.

- Honored, thank
you for having me.

- As we all know, this
is the 25th anniversary

of the lighting of
that Olympic torch,

and, almost to the minute.

And so, for those of us who
remember seeing it live,

I think we scarcely
could have imagined

the impact and the staying
power that moment would have,

both here in the United
States and around the world.

Ken, can you set up the
clip we're gonna watch,

and, that became such
an enduring image

of Ali on the world stage?

- Of course, Lonnae,

and thank you so much for
having me this evening.

We're so excited
to share the film,

and I'm speaking on behalf
of my two codirectors,

Sarah Burns and David McMahon.

Sarah is my oldest daughter
and David is my son-in-law,

and we have been collaborating
on a number of things,

no more more important to
ourselves and our hearts

than this one.

They were also, Sarah and
Dave, the writer of this.

And so, you know, sort
of out of sequence,

we want to jump ahead,

given this distinguished panel,

and show you a clip from

very near the end of the fourth
episode of four in our film.

It is 1996,

exactly 25 years ago
tonight to the moment,

as you said, Lonnae.

He's been out of the
public eye for awhile,

and this is just a
short, brief clip of us

trying to come to terms with

one of the most powerful
moments in his life,

a great human moment for him,

but an even greater
moment for humanity

where billions of
people got to share

the same moment of
healing together,

and it's an indelible moment,

so let's roll the
next clip. (mumbles)

(slow hip-hop music)

- [Narrator] In 1996,
the Olympic Committee

planning the Summer
Games in Atlanta

asked Muhammad Ali
to light the torch

at the opening ceremonies.

At first, Ali declined.

He didn't want to be seen
shaking and stumbling

on that stage,

but his friend Howard
Bingham convinced him.

"This is the thing where
the world is saying

thank you for all that
you've done over your life,"

Bingham told him.

"There will be 3 billion
people watching."

(crowd cheers)

(triumphant music)

- [Narrator] The plans
were kept secret.

- [Announcer] Do
you recognize her?

Janet Evans.

(triumphant music)

Considered the greatest
female distance swimmer

of all times.
(crowd cheers)

- And it was planned
very brilliantly.

I mean, people really thought
the swimmer Janet Evans

was going to be the person

who was going to
light that torch,

but instead, out of
nowhere comes Muhammad Ali.

(slow guitar music)
(crowd cheers)

♪ It's a long ♪

♪ I'll take the long road ♪

- You hadn't really
seen him in awhile.

You knew he was sick,

and when you would see him,

he was clearly showing the
effects of the illness,

but he hadn't been
seen that much,

and then, here he is in
this big prominent moment,

and he's holding that
torch and he's shaking.

And I, man, I'm
about to cry now.

It was hard to watch,

because you don't want to
see your guy like that.

You don't want to see that,

but you saw it.

(slow guitar music)

- He was defenseless.

Now, he can't hurt us anymore.

You know, he can't
make us mad anymore,

(slow guitar music)

because now he's,

the game that we ask him
to play to entertain us

has left him looking like this.

And now, we feel some
sympathy, if not guilt.

We see him shaking,
trembling up there.

The most beautiful moving,

most beautiful athlete in
motion you've ever seen,

and now he can't hold
the torch, you know?

So we feel guilt and
we feel sympathy.

We want to hug him.

We want to embrace him.

We want to ask his
forgiveness, you know?

Everything, and for every
reason that we disliked him,

now we love him,

you know, because he was right.

(crowd cheers)
(slow guitar music)

(flames crackle)

- And it was striking
to see this evolution,

not in Ali,

but in us.

(slow guitar music)

Ah, it just struck
me so amazingly

to watch Ali, like,
riding this torch.

(slow guitar music)

People weeping.

(slow guitar music)

It's amazing.

And you cast back not
so many years before,

and some huge amount
of the country

thought this guy
was the Antichrist,

or they chose to hate him,

or they made him a foil

to the other guy that
they liked better.

And it's entirely possible

that human beings are capable
of learning something.

♪ I'll take the long
road, yeah, yeah ♪

- [Narrator] The outpouring of
love caught Ali by surprise.

"Parkinson's robs
you of confidence,"

Lonnie told a reporter.

"Now he knows the public
will love him and accept him,

"no matter what he has."

(slow guitar music)

- Wow.

Wow, wow, wow.

Janet, that was such an
image of Ali for the ages.

- I, yes, and I was
telling all of you

a few minutes ago
before we came on

that I'm asked all
the time about it.

So when someone to,
this morning said to me,

"It's been 25 years, does
it feel like 25 years?"

My answer was "No,"

because I am blessed
with the opportunity

to be able to tell
this side of my story

where I was present
in that moment.

And, you know, on a
personal note, for me,

it transcended all of
my Olympic moments.

You know, I was a
three-time Olympian.

I represented our country
like Ali at the Olympic Games,

which is the penultimate
athletic experience.

And, you know, I tell people,

I'd give up every
single one of my medals

to be present in
that moment again.

And, you know, I was young
when, I was born in 1971.

And so I wasn't
witness to a lot,

and I was very young.

So, for me, the
phenomenon of Muhammad Ali

really began in
that moment for me.

I mean, of course I knew
him and I knew who he was,

but when I was standing there

and he was lighting
that cauldron,

and he was standing there
shaking with the torch,

I felt like he was giving
it to the world, right?

I mean, that was the emotion
that was coming from him, was,

this is yours, right?

I am here.

This is yours.

I am that person who is bringing
you together once again,

in happiness or not,

but I am here in this moment,

and it was courage
and generosity,

and to me, it was graciousness.

And, you know, I think
athletes, in general,

struggle with transition.

We struggle with not being

the great swimmer for
the rest of our lives

or the great boxer,

but what Ali did
on that night was

he gave all of us,
myself included,

this knowledge that
you don't have to

be able to get in a
ring and box anymore.

You can, and be ill.

You know, I lost my dad to ALS,

so I'm very familiar
with this disease.

And I, you could see him,

you could see his mind working

and trying to make his body

with this torch
light that flame.

And, you know, I think
he said to the world,

it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter
if you're sick,

it doesn't matter what
your position in life is.

We are here to inspire,

or we are here to stand
for something, you know?

Here he was in the South,
a Black man, right,

and then being adulated.

And I think it's such
a resonating moment

within my world of
the Olympic movement

because it defined to many of us

what the Olympic movement is,

which is not medals.

It's not winning,

and Ali certainly wouldn't have

won a boxing match that evening,

but he said to the world,

you can still make an impact.

You can still make a difference.

It doesn't matter what
your lot in life is,

and I think that's
why this message

still resonates on
a personal level.

It made me realize that
my platform as an Olympian

was an important platform,

and the medals, yeah,
they're wonderful,

but my platform is to
change lives for athletes

and inspire and motivate them,

and 100%, I give that to Ali
for inspiring me to do that,

even now, today.

- And in everything
you just said,

just, the moment becomes
representative of

this international
Olympic ideal, right?

And Todd, so, in the film,

you are so affected when
you're talking about Ali

and the ravages of what
he was going through,

and you talked about
it being hard to watch.

What so moved you
in this moment,

and by extension,

the millions of people
watching around the world?

What were we all responding to?

- Well, I can speak to
that at a personal level.

I think different people would
have different responses,

and I so appreciate
the opportunity of

hearing Janet Evans
describe that experience

from being there on
the platform with him,

which is, you know, such
a unique experience,

but I think different
people reacted differently.

What you got from me in the film

is something quite unusual,

and that is a show of emotion.

You don't get to be
"the Notorious PhD"
by showing emotion,

so this is rare,
but it was genuine.

And, you know, when I think
about that moment, even now,

I mean, how many times
have I seen that clip?

How many times have
people asked me

to comment on it in my career?

Like, I lost count,
you know, 20 years ago.

This is something
I've been asked

to comment about a great deal.

Things, you know, I talk
about it with friends of mine.

I mean, it's common in my life,

and no matter when I see it,

I have the same reaction to it.

Part of it is, you
know, exhilarating,

and another part of
it is depressing,

and I think it's the sort
of clash of those things

that made it so emotional.

You know, I don't
have any children,

but someone told me once
that when babies cry,

they're trying to express
themself and they can't,

and that's the only way
that they can get across

what it is they're
trying to say.

And in that moment, I,

you know, I'm a person who
makes my living with words,

and I had no words.

On one hand, you know,
you're talking about

the evidence of an American hero

standing on a stage in front
of the world in Atlanta,

which is important
for numerous reasons,

one of which is the place
that he began his comeback

after being in exile,

so there's that piece of it,

but the idea of a Black
man as an American hero.

And I think what's
unique about Ali is,

this is a Black man who,
back in the 1960s and '70s,

consciously went against
the establishment.

He went against the grain.

He was not, you know, Jesse
Owens in 1936 at the Olympics.

He was not Joe Louis
in the late 1930s

against Max Schmeling,

doing something that
Americans across the board

could embrace and celebrate

and hold up as
emblematic of the nation,

in spite of what these
individuals experienced

as Black people in America.

This was a Black person
who went against the system

in a very direct way,

and here it is, all
these years later,

and he's standing on this stage

and he's being embraced by

the nation that he
once had to defy.

And at the same time,

he's someone with a
debilitating illness that,

if we're all able
to live long lives,

something is going
to happen to us,

and we're gonna experience
aging and illness,

and you don't see
that every day.

Maybe you see it in your
personal life with your family,

but in terms of public figures,

you know, Ronald Reagan spent

the last years of his presidency

and the last years
of his life very ill.

We didn't see that.

If we had seen it,

it would affect how
we see Ronald Reagan.

So here we were looking at Ali,

celebrating him,

but what we're looking at
is not pleasant to the eye,

and it's specifically because
the profession he excelled in,

boxing was one that
the longer he did it,

the more impact it took
on his life physically.

So there's a part of
me that looks at this

and sees this American hero,

this Black man who went
against the system,

being embraced.

And in a way, people are saying,
"You were right all along,"

but then there's the
other part of it of,

you know, he kept boxing.

He took all these punches.

The second half of his career

is really defined
in terms of boxing

by his ability to
continually take a punch,

but he took too many.

And so, you know,
staying in the ring,

his profession brought
him to this point,

and you're sitting
there watching it,

and that's not pleasant,

but on the other hand,

this is Ali.

As he says, "Keep
the camera moving,

"'cause I'm kinda fast."

He's not that fast.

He's shaking, he's trembling,

but he's an American hero,

and we saw it,

and here we are 25 years
later talking about it

and, you know, looking at
clips of a life well lived.

- So, Ken, kind
of piggybacking on

what Todd was saying, right,

time is undefeated,

and I am struck by the way
his Olympic experience,

which began, of course, with
winning the gold medal in 1960,

and ends with this
torch lighting,

and, so these served as a,

the torch lighting
serves as a bookend,

and, to much of his
time on the world stage.

So what were the
universal themes

that were contained
within those bookends?

The humanity captured,

going from the young,
brash Olympic hopeful

to the former champion,

allowing us once again
to see his true self?

What did that mean to you?

In what ways did, does
that speak to you?

- This is a really
excellent question, Lonnae,

and I think Todd and Janet
have spoken so eloquently.

I'd like to back up a little bit

before the Rome
Olympics of 1960 to say,

there's something in this kid

that we're seeing
in the photographs.

There's something in this kid

that we're seeing in the
earliest of the footage

and in the first talking stuff

where he's chosen
boxing accidentally,

and he's, turns out to
be really good at it.

But he also has,
underlying that,

a real sense of
purpose in the life.

He's a kid born in Jim
Crow America, a Black kid,

and he's got something,

a je ne sais quoi,

that he is gonna go,
whatever he's doing.

I mean, you know, I told
somebody earlier today,

could have been a
simple carpenter,

and we know a few
simple carpenters

who've gone as far
as he did, you know?

And so, in a way, the
Rome Olympics places him

on a world stage
that he never leaves,

and it's really important
that, from that moment,

he begins to intersect with

all the most important
themes in American life.

And they have to do
with race in America,

because that's the
central theme of us,

both the US and the two-letter
lowercase plural pronoun,

but also about religion.

He chooses a separatist,

separatist religious sect,

a kinda hybrid of
Islam that's not Islam.

It's kind of an American thing.

If PT Barnum was,

you know, he might have
invented something like that

that also offered people,

and Northern African Americans,

a different kind of solution to

the agrarian faith-based
integrationists

that Martin Luther King

and the traditional
civil rights offered.

So he's beginning
to, as Todd said,

he's going against
every kind of grain.

At times, he is
as threatening to

a kind of middle-class
Black American

as he is terrifying to
so many white Americans

for the way he's standing up,

for the way he's acting,

for the way he's redefining,

as we said in the
intro, Black manhood,

in a way that, a generation
before, Jackie Robinson had.

This is a totally
different person.

He's saying he's pretty.

He's saying he's the greatest.

He's saying he's,
nobody can beat him.

It is unheard of,

and it is dissonant and jarring.

It's hard to forget.

There wasn't just this
beautiful insouciance about him.

It was threatening,

and so he's intersecting
with all of these things.

He's intersecting with politics.

He's opposed to the Vietnam War.

He's making a principled stand,

and willing, as he said,
as a young 20 year old,

to risk a firing squad

to uphold his beliefs.

And so, you've got the entire
country roiled up over him.

He's changed his name.

He's no longer the name of
a celebrated abolitionist,

but he's taken
the, a Muslim name,

and nobody wants
to respect that,

and so he's
struggling with that.

He's struggling against the
United States government.

He's struggling
against his suspension

and the three and a half years.

The year that Janet was born,

he fights Joe Frazier
for the first time

after a three-and-a-half-year
absence,

and he's full of
all the braggadocio.

He tear, he's horrible
to Joe Frazier,

and Joe Frazier beats him.

And in the press conference
afterwards, is he down?

Is he embarrassed?

Does he shirk this?

No, he says, you know,

"There's gonna be
defeat in every life."

And he realizes
he's been a symbol

for an awfully long time
to the entire world,

and he's gonna say, "I need
to serve an as example."

It's one of the
most heroic thing.

I know that Todd knows
his speech really well.

It's unbelievable when he is,

you know, acquitted
by the Supreme Court,

exonerates him,

and he no longer
has to go to jail.

They say, "Do you have faith
in the justice system?"

And he goes, "Well, I don't
know who's gonna be killed

"or who, what cop's
gonna beat somebody up."

You know, he doesn't say it,

but who's the next
Breonna Taylor?

Who's the next George Floyd?

Who's the next Trayvon Martin?

He's there with
everybody in the world

who have ever felt oppressed.

And so, he spends his life
essentially intersecting with

all the major themes of the
last half of the 20th century.

And lo and behold,

as we work with our heads,

nose to the grindstone
on this project,

we lift up after
seven years and see,

oh my goodness, he's talking
about today, as well.

And then you realize
why tonight, as well,

we are talking about this event.

An athlete imprisoned
by this disease,

and yet, liberated by
it at the same time,

who has gone on to yet
another kinda thing.

The last film I made was on
the writer Ernest Hemingway.

That didn't end too well.

This guy,

beset by this disease,

dies the most popular person,

the most beloved
person on the planet.

I'm really interested
in who that is.

- The most beloved
person on the planet.

Yet, we all
personalize him, right?

Like, he's ours.

We heard it from each of you,

and Janet, just to sort
of close out that look,

at eye level,

what did you see that the
rest of the world didn't see,

and what were you taking
from, in that moment, right,

that we all weren't privy to?

- I saw confidence.

I saw just a tiny bit
of nervousness and fear,

but I saw, you know, kind
of that athlete look of,

I'm gonna get this done,

and what Billy Payne
told me prior to,

one of the reasons I
didn't unlight my torch

was because there was a
fear that he would drop it.

And if he had dropped the flame,

it would have unignited,

and it's not what you do
on the way to the torch,

is, you know, the
torch goes from Olympia

all the way to the host country.

And I could see in his eyes,

'cause I was so nervous
he was gonna drop it,

'cause I didn't want to have
to help him, right? (chuckles)

And I could see it.

It's not gonna happen.

I'm not gonna drop this.

I am gonna do this.

And there was this,

this confidence and this pride

and this, like, determination,

and I knew it, right?

It was just, like,
you got this, right?

Like, and, you know,

he wasn't speaking at the
time because of his illness.

And if he could have,

I would never have
heard him anyway

because that stadium was,

you know, his daughter
talking about the airports

and the roar of the crowd.

Like, I could still
feel it in my,

I think anyone who
was in that stadium

that evening can still feel it.

But I couldn't have heard
him if he had tried to talk,

but I knew with this,
when I looked in his eyes,

I knew it was gonna be fine.

- And all of us going along
with it would be fine.

We have some audience questions,

although I have to sort
of see where they are.

I'm wondering if we
can maybe save those

and Ken, get you to tell
us about this next clip.

- [Ken] Sure.

- To set up, it's Ali
in Africa in 1964.

It comes before the legendary
international fights,

the Rumble In the Jungle

and in Zaire, the
Thrilla in Manila,

and they helped
mark the Ali legend,

but in what ways
does this highlight

his time on the world stage?

- This is a really,
really important moment.

Our first episode takes us up to

his winning the heavyweight
championship by defeating,

and probably, with no one
confident that he would win,

against Sonny Liston
in Miami in '64.

And later that year, he,

and it allows him,
it liberates him,

at least in his mind and
in the mind of others,

to be able to express this
developing Muslim faith

and the fact that he has become,

rather quietly and
surreptitiously,

a member of the Nation of Islam,

and become under the sway of

not only its leader,
Elijah Muhammad,

but also one of the
great preachers,

at least for a time, of the
Nation of Islam, Malcolm X,

and they've developed a
very intense friendship

between the two.

Kind of mentor, but
also friendship.

Ali supports Malcolm
X and his family,

but there's been
some disagreements,

and Malcolm X has been expelled.

But after he beats Liston,

he goes out into a world tour,

and he goes to Africa,

and you begin to
see the fact that,

unlike almost all
other athletes,

they have,

he has felt that the stage
that he so has wanted

since a little boy banging
pots and pans in his kitchen

is not limited to Louisville,

Grand Avenue on Louisville.

It's not limited to
Louisville, Kentucky.

It's not limited to
the United States.

He's had that experience
in Rome four years before.

It's the world, is his stage.

And so let's just
look at this clip

and come back and talk about it.

(slow guitar music)
(crowd cheers)

- [Narrator] In May,

Ali began a monthlong
tour of African countries.

In Accra, the capital of Ghana,

thousands gathered
at the airport

to catch a glimpse
of the world's new
heavyweight champion.

(mellow African music)

Outside his hotel,

Ali heard a familiar voice.

"Brother Muhammad,"
called Malcolm X,

who was on his
own overseas tour.

He greeted Ali enthusiastically.

"I still love you,"
he told the boxer.

"You left the Honorable
Elijah Muhammad," Ali said.

"That was the
wrong thing to do."

There was little else to say.

Malcolm walked away.

(upbeat trumpet music)

Ali met with Ghanaian
President Kwame Nkrumah,

sparred with his brother, Rudy,

now known as Rahman,

before thousands at a
local sports stadium,

and took every opportunity
to engage the admirers

who turned up
everywhere Ali went.

(upbeat trumpet music)

He also spoke out against
integration in America,

advocating for a separate
state for Black people,

and dismissed the
sweeping civil rights bill

under consideration
in the US Congress

as counterfeit money.

(mellow African music)

Later, he visited
Nigeria and Egypt,

where he and Herbert Muhammad

met with President
Gamal Abdel Nasser

and prayed with 1,500 worshipers

at Cairo's Al-Hussain Mosque.

(upbeat trumpet music)

The deep affection
Africans showered on Ali

during his five-week trip

showed that his
success in the ring

and outspokenness beyond it

had won him an
enormous following

well beyond the United States.

- Well, remember that the
African continent, itself,

was in the throes of
liberation, you know,

from colonial status
to its liberation time,

and Muhammad Ali was a
figure of liberation.

(mellow African music)

- [Narrator] Before
leaving Africa,

Ali received a cable from
his former friend and mentor.

"Because a billion of
our people in Africa,

"Asia, and Arabia
love you blindly,

"you must now be
forever aware of

"your tremendous responsibility
to them," Malcolm X wrote.

"You must never
do or say anything

"that will permit your
enemies to distort

"the beautiful image you
have here among our people."

- I, frankly,
believe that Cassius

is in a better position than
anyone else to restore the,

a sense of racial pride

to not only our people
in this country,

but all over the world,

and he is trying his best
to live a clean life,

and project a clean image.

But despite this,

you find the press is
constantly trying to paint him

as something other than
what he actually is.

He doesn't smoke.

He doesn't drink.

In fact, if he was white,

they would be referring to
him as the all-American boy.

- Wow.

So powerful.

So powerful.

I could just keep
watching this forever.

In fact, Ken, I did.

I went through the entire
documentary series twice.

- [Ken] Oh.

- So many parables.

- You see the great
discipline there in Malcolm X.

Later on in his life,

just after the first
scene that we showed

of the lighting of the torch,

he is trying to take
stock of his life

and trying to understand
where he's gone wrong.

He's said, "I fit my
religion to fit my life,"

and was extraordinarily
remorseful

for the unfaithfulness
that he had exhibited

towards the, at least
three of his wives.

And he also regretted some
of the things he'd said, too,

about Joe Frazier,

and he also felt that he
had abandoned Malcolm.

And I think Malcolm's
great gift here

is that he is so
open and forgiving.

He, Malcolm, himself, has
had this transformation

away from a kind of didactic

and rigid form that
Elijah Muhammad practiced

to something that was much
more embracing and ecumenical,

and it's a place that Muhammad
Ali is going to grow into,

and it's only going to increase

his ability to have
this world stature.

Because he's been so brash,

because he's said,
"I am the greatest,"

because he's said things

that Black men are
not supposed to say,

he is known throughout
the world already.

He's, one, the champion.

That makes him known,

but he's beloved
because of the way

he has championed everyone else

who's ever felt the
boot of the man.

And it is an amazing
thing that happens

in this very first
international trip,

that you can't do it,

and he is going to be
pulled now in death

towards what Malcolm X had
found at the end of his life.

And, in fact, when
Elijah Mohammad dies,

his son Wallace begins to
embrace a much more open

and forgiving and
tolerant version of Islam,

more mainstream Islam,

than the kind of rigid thing
of the Nation of Islam,

and that's the Muhammad
Ali at the end of his life.

So what you're seeing
at the beginning,

and in that
extraordinary forbearance

on the part of the
rejected Malcolm X,

who does not have long to live,

and is gonna be murdered
by the Nation of Islam,

let me just say that,

is the arc of the life
that's going to take him

to the kind of sainthood
that we celebrate tonight.

You know?

His message,

it's a four-letter word that
the FCC lets us speak about,

but we all have a hard
time talking about,

which is love,

and that's Muhammad Ali.

- It's the arc and
it's the evolution,

and Todd, in that clip, right,

we're seeing the antecedents,

the beginning, you know,

him being beloved
on the world stage,

as Ken was just talking about,

and as we're, as I
said, starting to see,

but how does he go on to become

such a liberation
figure in Africa,

so much so that during a time

rife with proxy wars, right,

that Ali becomes his own,

his fights become their own

kind of proxy war
for liberation,

for race and religious
pride and freedom.

And when you're watching it now,

even for control of
the Black body, right,

what Black people can
do and say and think,

what is he standing in for

at these various
inflection points

that so enrage
and inspire people

so much that they're
pouring so much into him?

- I think (clears throat)
several of the things

that Ken mentioned are,
you know, relevant here,

in terms of making
that connection

from, you know,
national to global.

And I think, you know, to begin,

the importance of Malcolm X,

the connection between Malcolm
and Cassius Clay at the time,

I am reminded of a famous
speech Malcolm gave

(clears throat) in my
hometown of Detroit in 1963

called the "Message
to the Grass Roots,"

and in the "Message
to the Grass Roots,"

Malcolm talks
about a conference.

It took place in Bandung,
Indonesia, back in the 1950s,

that brought together African
nations and Asian nations

and South Asian nations
and Latin American nations.

What we might now refer
to as people of color,

but people of color
from all over the world.

And in speaking of this,

what Malcolm was talking about

was the importance of
Black people in America

seeing themself
beyond just America.

And, of course, if
you are familiar with

"The Autobiography
of Malcolm X,"

Malcolm's history,

he, you know, talks about
the experience he has

when he goes to travel
through the Middle East

and various other places,

Africa, as, you know,
indicated in this clip,

when he kinda
randomly runs into Ali

at this moment when
there's conflict

with the Nation of Islam.

But I think what's important,

in addition to talking about,

you know, African nations',

you know, liberation,

anti-colonialism,

you know, the
"Third World" phrase

we don't use so much anymore,

you end up in, you know,
Vietnam, and the Vietnam War,

which, of course, Ali is very
central in being, early on,

and saying, "I'm not
gonna participate."

But also, when you
get into the 1970s

and you're staging
fights in Zaire,

the former Belgian Congo,

or you're staging fights
in, you know, Manila,

the Thrilla in Manila,

I mean, to me, that's
what makes Ali,

one of the things,
there's so many,

that makes him so important is,

he was always global.

He always represented
the disenfranchised,

the marginalized,

the colonized,

the former slaves,

the little man,

the people.

He was the people's
champ, right?

The people's choice.

This was something he embodied.

It was not just
something he was called.

You know, all sorts
of personal anecdotes

about individual people

who ran into Ali on the street.

You know, for a time,

he lived here in Los Angeles,

in the early 1980s,

and I've talked
to numerous people

who ran into him, you know,
buying ice cream for his kids.

And, you know, for
somebody like Ali,

there's a person coming up
to him every five seconds

wanting an autograph,
wanting a photo.

You know, this is the
life of a celebrity,

and he's the biggest
of celebrities,

and people are
telling stories about,

it made no difference

how many people were
waiting to talk to him,

how many pictures he'd taken.

It didn't matter.

He loved being around people,

and it's that energy that
is pouring out of him

that makes him, you know,

someone that people across
the globe can embrace.

And so, I think there's
this global dimension to him

that started,

perhaps, back in the
Olympics in 1960.

But, you know,
it's very important

that he see himself
as a Black man,

but not simply an
American Black man,

but a Black man on
the global stage.

And I think in the same
way that, you know,

say, jazz musicians before him

had traveled to places
throughout the globe

and represented Black
people from America,

he kinda embodies that, as well.

But when you look at his career,

when you look at his,
you know, personality,

when you look at the
circumstances around it,

I mean, you know, going to Zaire

and fighting George
Foreman in 1974,

fighting Foreman and you
have Mobutu Sese Seko,

Ken deals with all this
in the documentary,

the history of what is Zaire

but had previously
been the Congo,

the murdering of
Patrice Lumumba,

there's a whole series
of historical events,

and you can put Muhammad Ali
right in the center of them.

Ferdinand Marcos
in the Philippines,

and America's relationship
to the Philippines,

the Thrilla in Manila.

He was global.

He was iconic.

He was a representative
of the Third World.

He was a representative
of people of color.

He was an American.

He was all these things at once,

and there's really not a
lot of people in history

you can say that about,

and certainly not
a lot of boxers,

or certainly not
a lot of athletes.

Just to kinda tie this up,

if you go back to
2016 at his funeral,

and I covered the
funeral for CBS that day,

so I'm on the air live all day

and I'm talking
to George Foreman,

and I'm talking to a series
of people connected to him,

and I just kept saying,

"When I was growing up,

"situations like this

"were reserved for
presidents or heads of state.

"Boxers, athletes, didn't get

"these sorts of
public send-offs."

He did.

And there's a reason he did.

A small part of it had to do
with his abilities as a boxer.

- [Ken] Right.

- Much of it had to do with his
identity as a global citizen

who connected all of these
forces at the same time.

- So, Janet, it's
interesting because

Ali was certainly
all those things

Todd just said he was,

but he was also a winner, right?

He was gold medalist,

three-time heavyweight champion.

You, yourself, won
three gold medals,

broke seven world records

in three events during
your swimming career.

What is it about winning
that gives people

this extra ability
to reach people?

How does it change the
proportions on the world stage,

and engender a kind
of responsibility

that you've talked about
feeling towards others,

and that Ali certainly had?

- Well, it's tough to follow
Dr. Boyd because that,

I think that really summed
it up for me, personally.

You know, like I said,

when he was holding that torch,

it was like he wanted the world,

it was not his, it was
for everyone, right?

And so I, it just, it
summed it up so beautifully.

So, thank you, Doctor.

You know, I think, different
than winning being important,

I think, of course, Ali
liked to win. (chuckles)

We all like to win.

We all want to win.

But, to me, when
I speak about Ali,

I think Ali was a champion,

and I think there's a difference

between winning and
being a champion.

And so, I think a
champion is someone

who understands
they're not gonna win.

And he didn't win everything,

and that didn't matter to him

because yes, it
was great to win,

and it was great to
puff out your chest

and receive that medal
or that heavyweight belt,

but it was bigger
than winning for him,

and I think that's
what athletes learn,

and are still learning
from his story,

is that winning was
a catalyst for him

to be on the world stage

and, but it was his message,

it was his journey,

it was his platform,

and that evening in Atlanta,

I think when you look
at all of the athletes

that were competing
from the world

that Dr. Boyd is
speaking about, right,

there, the Olympics,

there's no more
international sporting event

than the Olympic Games, right?

So you have all these people
from all over the world.

You know, 10% of the athletes

that participate in the
Olympic Games win a medal.

10%.

He wasn't speaking to
that 10% that night.

He was speaking to the 90% that
don't go home with a medal,

and he was saying to
them, "It's okay."

Right?

Show up,

be present,

find your voice,

tell your story,

make a difference, right?

And so the winning, to me,

he was a champion.

Yeah, he won.

He has a lot of medals at
home and a lot of belts,

but it was transcending winning

that really, I think,
for me, personally,

helped me realize that
it's great to win,

but there's more to it,

and that's my vision of
Ali with his athleticism

and his journey as an athlete.

And as Dr. Boyd said,

he's, I mean, clearly,
so, so much more.

- And poured so
much more into that.

We're gonna to get to
the audience questions,

because, obviously,
they're very curious.

So Lloyd from the
audience asks Ken,

"Ken, did you ever feel
nervous doing this film?

"He's the most beloved
person on the planet?

"How did you handle that

"without giving into the
reverence that Ali inspires?"

And I'll add to that,

and get your arm around just
the bigness of his life?

- Yeah, I think
that we've tried to

spend most of, you
know, our lives,

by the whole team sort of
biting off more than we can chew

and learning how to chew it.

The biggest thing is fear,

because when you're taking on,

say, all of the Civil War,

or all of baseball,

or someone like Muhammad Ali,

and I have to agree with Todd

that the jazz analogy
is really great,

'cause there's really only
one other person on the planet

that's at all like Muhammad Ali,

and that's Louis Armstrong.

And he just, he
revolutionized music

the way Ali revolutionized
his particular profession,

and he had a capacious heart,

and was, in turn,
loved across the globe

in a way that was part of that
subtle message of liberation

that comes along with
the thrill of celebrity

and things like that.

You know, we put our pants
on one leg at a time.

We spend years doing it.

We collect as many photographs

and as much footage as we can.

We talk to as many
people who are smart,

and one of them is here.

We talk to family,

two of his four wives,

two of his children,

a lot of journalists,

like Dave Kindred, who you saw,

who covered him from the
beginning to the end.

Also, Robert Lipsyte.

People who've written about
him, like David Remnick,

the poet Wole Soyinka,

who's written one of
the most beautiful poems

that frames our last
episode about Ali,

having seen him in a
kind of desultory moment

at a kind of autograph thing
that was not the Olympics.

It was not the kind of moment

that Janet had that
privilege of being there,

where all the love of
the world was pouring in

and all of his love
was pouring out.

You know, it was
just some thing,

and he wrote this extraordinary
poem that exemplifies

all of the reasons why
we're talking to him.

I mean, a lot of
our sports heroes

aren't really heroes,
in that regard.

They're really good
at what they do,

winning, and even
being champions,

and I'm glad that Janet
made that distinction,

but they're not
risking everything.

He risked everything.

At the height of his
professional career, he said,

"No, I'm just not gonna do it."

And he knew he'd
get a cushy USO job,

he'd go and do a few
exhibition sparring matches,

and yet, he said, "No,
I'm not gonna do that."

Three and a half years later,

he can come back,

and he can't beat the champion
Joe Frazier the first time,

the first time,

but he keeps at it.

So it's just going
in and understanding

that we're not looking for
hagiography hero worship.

We're not looking for some
kind of simplistic revisionism.

We're looking to see a
complicated human being,

and saying the word "complicated
human being" is redundant.

So we're looking
for that undertow,

the contradictions
that are inherent

in each and every one of us.

And the reason why we
have mythic figures,

iconic heroes,

the hero's journey that
Muhammad Ali takes,

is because all of
their tensions,

all of the contradictions
within them,

are writ so large
that they might be,

just, perhaps, if we're aware,

a little bit helpful
for the rest of us,

in which we play out
those contradictions

in a much more cramped
and narrow space.

And to me, he's about
how you wake up.

You know, Janet, you spoke
so, that was so beautiful

about being there
and understanding
what he understood,

and that silent thing.

I met him, Todd, in LA once.

Never said a word to
him, in a coffee shop.

You know, I'd gone
in to get some tea,

turned around,

and he was the only
person in a diner or,

you know, coffee
shop or whatever,

and we just had this
wordless conversation.

It was just extraordinary
to be in his presence.

It was like, as Remnick said,

it was like the Buddha.

You know, and I didn't
need anything to do

but just be as present
as I could possibly do.

And that, no pun intended,

is the greatest
present he gave us.

Boxing, as Rasheda,
his daughter, says,

this much, right?

The rest is this
extraordinary heart

that just continued to
grow and grow and grow.

- And Todd, a final
question from the audience,

and I'm gonna take a
moderator's privilege

to kind of add onto it,

because Ken just talked
about contradictions.

I want to talk about
contradictions and evolutions.

First of all,

as this liberation figure and
being celebrated in Africa,

I was struck by how
a lot of the people,

the multitudes coming
out to see him,

were phenotypically closer
to a Joe Frazier, right?

And so, we have to
hold that intention,

in terms of this
liberation figure

also espousing and talking
in these very ugly ways,

and Todd Stevens asks you,

"Tell us about the
cultural impact

"of Ali beating
Superman to a pulp

"in the 40-year-old
DC Comic book,

"'Superman vs. Muhammad Ali,'
that's a collector's item,"

and that certainly represents
an evolution, right?

I mean, a collector's item,

him beating, you know,
American Superman.

So, Todd, explain to me
both of those things,

these notions of
contradictions, evolutions,

when it comes to Muhammad Ali.

- Well, I think, you know,

when Ken said, "a
complicated human being

"is a contradiction in terms,"

that's so true. (chuckles)

I mean, you know, human being,

that assumes, we're
all very complicated,

but you need to say complicated,

because people don't always
make that connection.

But I think that's a perfect
way of describing it.

You know, Ali is a human being.

He was not a cartoon character.

He was not a character

that a screenwriter
wrote to put in a movie.

He was a person.

And, you know, I mean,
we talked earlier about

a human being dealing
with illness, right?

That's human.

To see him with Janet
Evans on that stage,

we saw humanity.

- [Ken] Right.

- Not always pretty, right?

Whole lot easier to see him,

you know, bouncing
around the ring

after he beat Sonny Liston.

That's a lot more uplifting

than to see him standing
there shaking, right?

But that's real.

On the same token,

you look at this scenario,

particularly involving
Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier,

and I want to go back to

the point Janet Evans was
making about, you know,

winning, being a
champion, distinctions.

Arguably, one of Ali's greatest
fights is a fight he lost,

and that is that fight in the
year Janet Evans was born.

I was a young kid,

but in a lot of ways,

1971, for me, is the
beginning of the universe,

because it's my
discovery of Muhammad Ali

and the lead-up to the fight.

I just keep seeing
this guy on television

and he's jumping out
of the television

for me, this seven-year-old kid,

and I remember my
parents were, like,

going to watch the
fight on closed-circuit.

They got dressed up
and it was a big deal,

and they came back that night
and I wanted to know who won.

I was up way later than
I should have been.

They told me Ali lost
and it broke my heart.

How could he, how
could this guy lose?

I'm seven years old.

I didn't know very much
about boxing, Joe Frazier.

I didn't know much
about anything.

I'm a seven-year-old kid

who's been captivated
by this man's persona.

"No, he did not lose.

"Don't tell me that.

"That's not possible," right?

But you're in that moment.

Later,

many years later,

I'm talking to my father,

who introduced me to all this,

and we're talking about
the Frazier fight,

and my father says to me,

"You know, I really didn't like

"the way Ali went
after Joe Frazier."

He goes, "I understood he
was promoting the fight

"and he wanted to sell it.

"But the things he was
saying about Frazier,

"you know, if you're
in a barbershop

"and two guys are
having an argument

"and they say those things,

"maybe it's funny,

"maybe you laugh.

"The public didn't
need to hear that."

Ali went after Joe Frazier in
a particularly racialized way.

He talked about his features,
his physical features,

you know, which you
referred to, Lonnae.

He talked about his
physical features.

He called him dumb.

He talked about him, I think
I say this in the film,

he talked about him the way

racist white people would
talk about Black people.

But this is Muhammad Ali.

This is not a racist
white person saying it.

So, in some ways it almost
gives people license

to say the kinda
things he's saying

because he's saying it,

and he's so charismatic.

Something you notice, though,
when you watch this film,

and I've had the privilege of
watching it multiple times,

there's a different Ali in
the lead-up to the fight

than there is after the fight.

Before every fight,

he's gonna sell the fight.

He was strongly
influenced by wrestling,

particularly a wrestler
known as Gorgeous George.

He said he recognized
how Gorgeous George

could become this
kinda hated figure,

and people would pay money
to come and see him lose.

He put his own twist on that.

But if you watch Muhammad
Ali after a fight,

he's one of the most
humble people in the world,

I don't care who he's fighting.

The contrast is amazing,

and you can see this
throughout the documentary.

Before the fight,

he's gonna use all sorts
of slurs and criticisms

and everything he can to get
under his opponent's skin,

and after the fight,

we're not promoting it anymore.

He's gonna show the humanity.

So I think what we have to
look at is the fact that Ali,

and Ken mentioned this earlier,

later in his life, said he
had two prominent regrets:

his relationship with Malcolm X,

and the way in which he
talked about Joe Frazier.

The problem is, Joe
Frazier, great boxer,

and if we're just
talking about boxing,

one of the great heavyweights.

Joe Frazier was not well spoken.

He was not charismatic.

He was not Ali.

I mean, that's an
understatement.

Who is, right?

I felt like Ali took
advantage of Joe Frazier,

and he took advantage
of the fact that

he couldn't keep up
with him in that way.

Nobody could!

But Joe Frazier
certainly couldn't do it.

George Foreman, in 1974,

is a somewhat less
sympathetic character, to me,

than Joe Frazier was in 1971.

But what you have is a figure
in Ali who is very popular,

very charismatic,

and there are moments when
he uses his powers for evil

as opposed to using
his powers for good.

That is probably something
that can, at some level,

be said about all of us.

- [Ken] Right.

- Right?

That's the humanity of it.

So when you look at him,

it's not about, you know,
celebrating a saint.

It's about celebrating a
really compelling human being,

warts and all.

And so, you can't just talk
about winning boxing matches,

or the rhymes,

or how charismatic he was.

You also have to talk about

the fact that this
was a human being,

and like all human beings,

there are things he did that,

perhaps given the opportunity,

he wouldn't do a second time.

- Well said.

- And because this is
the 25th anniversary

of the torch lighting,

I would be remiss,

we gotta close out,

but Janet,

I have a question,

and Richard from the audience
echoes that question.

When did you find out

that you were going to hand
the torch to Muhammad Ali,

and what was, like, what was
your self-talk? (chuckles)

(mumbles) What's
happening? (chuckles)

- (chuckles) I found out the
night before at midnight,

during our rehearsal,

and Ali had rehearsed
prior to me,

so I only found
out, as mentioned,

because he had
continued to drop it,

and Billy Payne had said to me,

"This is the plan if
he drops it," right?

"Otherwise, we're
not gonna tell you."

And I was swimmer, all right?

I can't run.

I'm just like,
"Wait, I have to run

"all the way around his track,

"up these three long ramps,

"and Muhammad Ali's gonna be
waiting for me?" (chuckles)

Like, so my self-talk
wasn't very good, right?

It was very, I was very,
clearly very worried,

but I will tell you,

when I got up there
and I saw him,

I knew it was gonna be okay.

It just, was just, it was,

I just knew it
was gonna be okay.

And it was, so-

- It certainly was,

and he just gave
you that strength.

I just want to thank you.

It's so funny,

I feel like we've barely
scratched the surface,

and we've been here-

- We've barely
scratched the surface.

- There's everything to say
about him centering Africa,

about the ways that
he still continues

to unfold on the world stage.

I'll hang around.

Out of all of you,

I probably have the least
to do right now, you know.

I'm sorta good,

but I do want to go
ahead and wrap up,

and thank the audience
at home for joining us.

Thank you, Todd.

Thank you, Janet.

And congratulations, again, Ken,

and thank you for
such a singular look

at this, at the life
of Muhammad Ali.

- Well, you know, the
other anniversary,

it's 25 years since the
lighting of the torch,

and when we started,
it was almost exactly.

It is now almost exactly
two months from now,

8:00 Eastern time
on September 19th,

that PBS will begin
broadcasting this series,

and it'll be available
for streaming,

but it'll run the
next four nights,

if you're still wedded
to broadcast television,

and available for streaming
exactly two months from now.

And so, I really hope that,

because it's impossible
to scratch the surface,

nor did we, in eight hours,

that we hope that you'll
all join us and watch it,

and see Todd in all
his magnificence,

and Muhammad Ali,

and see you, too, Janet, running
up, expertly, those ramps,

and to begin to dive deeper

into this most interesting of

complicated,
redundant human being.

- And, before that,
let me just say,

please be on the lookout
for two more installments

in our "Conversations" series.

We've got "Ali, Race &
Religion," September 9,

and "Ali, Activism & the Modern
Athlete" on September 14.

So lots of other ways
to continue to get
into the Ali story.

Please sign up for those
events at pbs.org/alievents.

And, as Ken said, please do
tune in to "Muhammad Ali,"

a film by Ken Burns, Sarah
Burns, and David McMahon

that we're so grateful they did,

and premiering, again,
September 19 on PBS.

Thank you all.

- Thank you, Lonnae.

Thank you, Janet, Todd.

Thanks.