1
00:00:01,634 --> 00:00:02,969
- [Narrator] He was 
bigger than boxing.

2
00:00:02,969 --> 00:00:05,238
- [Ali] I am the greatest.

3
00:00:05,238 --> 00:00:07,073
- [Narrator] He was 
larger than life.

4
00:00:07,073 --> 00:00:09,342
- [Man] His magnetism 
just was amazing.

5
00:00:09,342 --> 00:00:10,443
Who is this guy?

6
00:00:10,443 --> 00:00:12,145
- [Man] He was a revolutionary.

7
00:00:12,145 --> 00:00:13,880
He was a groundbreaker.

8
00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:15,582
- And ain't nobody 
gonna stop me.

9
00:00:15,582 --> 00:00:17,751
- [Narrator] Ken Burns 
captures an intimate story

10
00:00:17,751 --> 00:00:20,587
of victory, defeat, 
and determination.

11
00:00:20,587 --> 00:00:22,455
- The price of 
freedom comes high.

12
00:00:22,455 --> 00:00:23,556
I have faith,

13
00:00:23,556 --> 00:00:24,924
but I am free.

14
00:00:24,924 --> 00:00:25,959
- [Narrator] "Muhammad Ali,"

15
00:00:25,959 --> 00:00:27,494
tune in or stream,

16
00:00:27,494 --> 00:00:30,530
start Sunday September 19th 
at 8/7 Central only on PBS.

17
00:00:32,465 --> 00:00:33,933
- Good evening,

18
00:00:33,933 --> 00:00:36,669
and welcome to our second 
event in our discussion series,

19
00:00:36,669 --> 00:00:38,905
"Conversations on Muhammad Ali,"

20
00:00:38,905 --> 00:00:43,309
presented by PBS and 
ESPN's The Undefeated.

21
00:00:43,309 --> 00:00:44,611
I'm Sylvia Bugg,

22
00:00:44,611 --> 00:00:47,714
Chief Programming 
Executive at PBS.

23
00:00:47,714 --> 00:00:50,517
25 years ago today in Atlanta,

24
00:00:50,517 --> 00:00:52,085
an ailing Muhammad Ali,

25
00:00:52,085 --> 00:00:55,655
who was physically suffering 
from Parkinson's disease,

26
00:00:55,655 --> 00:00:57,023
surprised the world

27
00:00:57,023 --> 00:01:00,026
when he took the Olympic 
torch from Janet Evans,

28
00:01:00,026 --> 00:01:01,728
one of our guests this evening,

29
00:01:01,728 --> 00:01:03,997
and lit the Olympic cauldron.

30
00:01:03,997 --> 00:01:06,433
It was a historic moment.

31
00:01:06,433 --> 00:01:10,503
Nearly 40 years earlier at 
the Rome Olympics in 1960,

32
00:01:10,503 --> 00:01:12,639
Ali stepped onto 
the world stage,

33
00:01:12,639 --> 00:01:14,407
taking home the gold.

34
00:01:14,407 --> 00:01:18,711
The 18-year-old Ali easily 
won all four of his fights.

35
00:01:18,711 --> 00:01:20,680
He never left the world stage,

36
00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,550
the topic of our 
conversation this evening.

37
00:01:23,550 --> 00:01:26,586
Many of his fights took 
place in other countries:

38
00:01:26,586 --> 00:01:27,821
the UK,

39
00:01:27,821 --> 00:01:28,721
Canada,

40
00:01:28,721 --> 00:01:29,689
West Germany,

41
00:01:29,689 --> 00:01:30,657
Switzerland,

42
00:01:30,657 --> 00:01:31,558
Japan,

43
00:01:31,558 --> 00:01:32,425
Ireland,

44
00:01:32,425 --> 00:01:33,359
Indonesia,

45
00:01:33,359 --> 00:01:34,227
Zaire,

46
00:01:34,227 --> 00:01:35,228
Malaysia,

47
00:01:35,228 --> 00:01:37,197
the Philippines, 
and the Bahamas.

48
00:01:37,197 --> 00:01:38,765
But even beyond boxing,

49
00:01:38,765 --> 00:01:41,167
he was perhaps, during 
his long career,

50
00:01:41,167 --> 00:01:43,236
the most famous American,

51
00:01:43,236 --> 00:01:45,438
drawing crowds 
wherever he traveled,

52
00:01:45,438 --> 00:01:49,109
but equally, inspiring 
young people across borders.

53
00:01:49,109 --> 00:01:51,778
And while Ali was an 
American through and through,

54
00:01:51,778 --> 00:01:54,981
he was also international 
in perspective,

55
00:01:54,981 --> 00:01:58,618
recognizing and speaking 
about his bond to Africa

56
00:01:58,618 --> 00:02:00,620
as an African American.

57
00:02:00,620 --> 00:02:01,788
Ali often said,

58
00:02:01,788 --> 00:02:03,289
"I am African."

59
00:02:03,289 --> 00:02:05,792
Africa meant so much to him,

60
00:02:05,792 --> 00:02:07,360
but as others have commented,

61
00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,330
he meant even more to Africa.

62
00:02:10,330 --> 00:02:13,066
This September, PBS is 
delighted to present

63
00:02:13,066 --> 00:02:16,302
the latest from Ken 
Burns, Sarah Burns,

64
00:02:16,302 --> 00:02:18,037
David McMahon and their team,

65
00:02:18,037 --> 00:02:21,741
a four-part documentary 
series on the global icon,

66
00:02:21,741 --> 00:02:23,676
Muhammad Ali.

67
00:02:23,676 --> 00:02:26,045
This series takes us 
deep into the life

68
00:02:26,045 --> 00:02:29,983
of one of the most indelible 
figures of the 20th century,

69
00:02:29,983 --> 00:02:32,152
showing us the true 
nature of the man

70
00:02:32,152 --> 00:02:35,388
who called himself "the 
greatest" and proved it.

71
00:02:35,388 --> 00:02:39,058
The discussion will explore 
how Ali understood the world,

72
00:02:39,058 --> 00:02:41,461
and how the world embraced him,

73
00:02:41,461 --> 00:02:43,696
leading up to that 
extraordinary moment

74
00:02:43,696 --> 00:02:45,899
when the Olympic 
medalist, Janet Evans,

75
00:02:45,899 --> 00:02:50,003
handed him the torch 
in Atlanta in 1996.

76
00:02:50,003 --> 00:02:52,172
Joining Janet 
Evans and Ken Burns

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00:02:52,172 --> 00:02:53,940
are Dr. Todd Boyd,

78
00:02:53,940 --> 00:02:55,775
professor of race and culture

79
00:02:55,775 --> 00:02:58,611
at the University of 
Southern California,

80
00:02:58,611 --> 00:03:02,882
and ESPN and The Undefeated 
senior writer, Lonnae O'Neal,

81
00:03:02,882 --> 00:03:05,818
who will moderate this 
evening's conversation.

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00:03:05,818 --> 00:03:07,287
We will begin the discussion

83
00:03:07,287 --> 00:03:09,622
with the introduction 
to the film.

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00:03:09,622 --> 00:03:11,658
Thank you for joining 
us this evening,

85
00:03:11,658 --> 00:03:16,129
and don't forget to tune into 
the premiere of "Muhammad Ali"

86
00:03:16,129 --> 00:03:21,000
on September 19th at 8:00 
pm Eastern time on PBS.

87
00:03:24,604 --> 00:03:26,072
- [Muhammad] You 
want some breakfast?

88
00:03:26,072 --> 00:03:29,242
- [Child] I want 
some Corn Flakes.

89
00:03:29,242 --> 00:03:31,711
- Can I have some 
of your Corn Flakes?

90
00:03:31,711 --> 00:03:32,979
Oh, I don't want none.

91
00:03:32,979 --> 00:03:34,581
I won't take none, 
I won't take none.

92
00:03:35,748 --> 00:03:37,317
I won't eat none if 
you don't want me to.

93
00:03:37,317 --> 00:03:38,851
Ooh, look at that pretty horsey!

94
00:03:38,851 --> 00:03:40,720
- Where? 
- Is that a white horse?

95
00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:41,654
See?

96
00:03:41,654 --> 00:03:42,589
Now, stand up, look over there.

97
00:03:42,589 --> 00:03:44,090
Stand up, you gotta stand up.

98
00:03:44,090 --> 00:03:45,291
Over that building.

99
00:03:45,291 --> 00:03:47,360
See the big, look, there he is!

100
00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,563
(utensil clangs)

101
00:03:50,563 --> 00:03:51,397
(hand slaps)

102
00:03:51,397 --> 00:03:52,332
What?

103
00:03:52,332 --> 00:03:53,166
(man chuckles)

104
00:03:53,166 --> 00:03:54,067
What's wrong?

105
00:03:54,067 --> 00:03:56,603
(crowd cheers)

106
00:03:58,204 --> 00:04:00,640
- [Crowd] Ali! Ali! Ali! Ali!

107
00:04:02,242 --> 00:04:03,843
- My earliest memories 
that I can think of

108
00:04:03,843 --> 00:04:05,345
as a child with my father

109
00:04:05,345 --> 00:04:06,946
are walking through airports

110
00:04:06,946 --> 00:04:08,581
and being in crowds,

111
00:04:08,581 --> 00:04:11,718
and feeling in my, the 
vibrations of people's clapping

112
00:04:11,718 --> 00:04:13,886
and shouts in my chest,

113
00:04:13,886 --> 00:04:15,154
and just looking at my dad,

114
00:04:15,154 --> 00:04:16,990
you know, like, 
who is this person?

115
00:04:16,990 --> 00:04:18,157
(crowd cheers)

116
00:04:18,157 --> 00:04:20,760
And it was all the 
time, anywhere we went.

117
00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:21,995
"You're the greatest, 
we love you!"

118
00:04:21,995 --> 00:04:24,030
And the clapping, 
and, "Muhammad!"

119
00:04:24,030 --> 00:04:24,897
- (speaks foreign language)

120
00:04:24,897 --> 00:04:25,932
(crowd repeats)

121
00:04:25,932 --> 00:04:27,166
(speaks foreign language)

122
00:04:27,166 --> 00:04:28,601
- [Hana] And I loved 
feeling all the energy

123
00:04:28,601 --> 00:04:29,669
and the love that he felt.

124
00:04:29,669 --> 00:04:31,704
(crowd chants)

125
00:04:31,704 --> 00:04:35,775
- We now think of Muhammad 
Ali as this vulnerable guy

126
00:04:35,775 --> 00:04:37,443
lighting the torch in Atlanta,

127
00:04:37,443 --> 00:04:40,146
and everybody on 
the globe loves him.

128
00:04:40,146 --> 00:04:42,081
Black people like 
him, white people.

129
00:04:42,081 --> 00:04:43,449
He's a universal hero,

130
00:04:43,449 --> 00:04:45,852
like, but almost 
in a religious way,

131
00:04:45,852 --> 00:04:47,520
like the Buddha,

132
00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,289
but when he was in the 
midst of his career,

133
00:04:49,289 --> 00:04:50,723
and not just in the early bit,

134
00:04:50,723 --> 00:04:53,192
he was incredibly divisive. 
(crowd jeers)

135
00:04:53,192 --> 00:04:55,862
- Boo, yell and 
scream, throw peanuts,

136
00:04:55,862 --> 00:04:57,397
but whatever you do,

137
00:04:57,397 --> 00:04:59,599
pay to get in.

138
00:04:59,599 --> 00:05:01,100
- People hated him.

139
00:05:01,100 --> 00:05:02,302
Whether it was 
along racial lines,

140
00:05:02,302 --> 00:05:03,136
class lines,

141
00:05:03,136 --> 00:05:03,970
Vietnam lines,

142
00:05:03,970 --> 00:05:04,871
political lines,

143
00:05:04,871 --> 00:05:05,938
religious lines,

144
00:05:05,938 --> 00:05:07,373
or they just couldn't stand him,

145
00:05:07,373 --> 00:05:08,541
and people, of course, 
said the opposite,

146
00:05:08,541 --> 00:05:10,610
and this was, "I 
loved him, loved him."

147
00:05:12,045 --> 00:05:14,280
But you had an 
opinion about him.

148
00:05:14,280 --> 00:05:15,648
(suspenseful music)

149
00:05:15,648 --> 00:05:17,016
(buzzer sounds) 
- What's my name, huh?

150
00:05:17,016 --> 00:05:17,850
What's my name?

151
00:05:17,850 --> 00:05:19,185
He can't do battle!

152
00:05:19,185 --> 00:05:21,187
It's gonna take a 
good man to whup me!

153
00:05:21,187 --> 00:05:22,121
You can look at me,

154
00:05:22,121 --> 00:05:23,122
I'm more than a confident.

155
00:05:23,122 --> 00:05:24,057
I can't beat me.

156
00:05:24,057 --> 00:05:25,325
I had 180 amateur fights,

157
00:05:25,325 --> 00:05:26,426
22 professional fights,

158
00:05:26,426 --> 00:05:27,760
and I'm pretty as a girl.

159
00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,262
Look how pretty I am.

160
00:05:29,262 --> 00:05:31,264
(crowd murmurs)

161
00:05:31,264 --> 00:05:33,232
My long, trim legs 
and my beautiful arms

162
00:05:33,232 --> 00:05:35,101
and a pretty nose and mouth.

163
00:05:35,101 --> 00:05:36,336
I know I'm a pretty man.

164
00:05:36,336 --> 00:05:37,570
I know I'm pretty.

165
00:05:37,570 --> 00:05:39,138
You don't have to 
tell me I'm pretty.

166
00:05:39,138 --> 00:05:40,640
I'm cocky, I'm proud.

167
00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:42,642
Never talk about 
who's gonna stop me,

168
00:05:42,642 --> 00:05:43,910
'cause ain't nobody 
gonna stop me!

169
00:05:43,910 --> 00:05:45,311
I say what I want to say.

170
00:05:45,311 --> 00:05:47,580
Ain't no more big niggers 
talking like this.

171
00:05:47,580 --> 00:05:48,848
(upbeat music)

172
00:05:48,848 --> 00:05:50,283
- He was a pioneer.

173
00:05:50,283 --> 00:05:52,051
He was a revolutionary.

174
00:05:52,051 --> 00:05:54,020
He was a groundbreaker.

175
00:05:54,020 --> 00:05:58,091
A guy known simply 
as "The Greatest."

176
00:05:58,091 --> 00:06:00,193
- I am the greatest!

177
00:06:00,193 --> 00:06:01,728
I've wrastled with alligators,

178
00:06:01,728 --> 00:06:03,429
I've tussled with a whale,

179
00:06:03,429 --> 00:06:06,599
I done handcuffed lightning 
and put thunder in jail.

180
00:06:06,599 --> 00:06:07,600
You know I'm bad.

181
00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,235
Back off of me, man.

182
00:06:09,235 --> 00:06:10,470
Back off of me, man!

183
00:06:10,470 --> 00:06:12,105
I can drown a drink of water

184
00:06:12,105 --> 00:06:13,573
and kill a dead tree.

185
00:06:13,573 --> 00:06:15,341
This will be no contest.

186
00:06:15,341 --> 00:06:17,777
Wait 'til you see Muhammad Ali.

187
00:06:17,777 --> 00:06:19,011
♪ I'm a wade, I'm a wave ♪

188
00:06:19,011 --> 00:06:21,013
- To tap that hutzpah,

189
00:06:21,013 --> 00:06:21,981
and to be a Black man in America

190
00:06:21,981 --> 00:06:24,417
was just, it was outlandish.

191
00:06:24,417 --> 00:06:25,551
(crowd cheers)

192
00:06:25,551 --> 00:06:26,486
- Muhammad means 
"worthy of all praises,"

193
00:06:26,486 --> 00:06:28,221
and Ali means "most high."

194
00:06:28,221 --> 00:06:31,457
And I just don't think I 
should go 10,000 miles in there

195
00:06:31,457 --> 00:06:33,860
and shoot some Black people 
that never called me nigger.

196
00:06:33,860 --> 00:06:35,395
I just can't shoot 'em.

197
00:06:35,395 --> 00:06:37,397
I always wondered why Miss 
America was always white.

198
00:06:37,397 --> 00:06:38,498
Santa Claus was white.

199
00:06:38,498 --> 00:06:40,700
White Swan Soap, 
King White Soap,

200
00:06:40,700 --> 00:06:42,235
White Cloud tissue paper,

201
00:06:42,235 --> 00:06:43,936
and everything bad was black.

202
00:06:43,936 --> 00:06:45,772
Black cat was the bad luck,

203
00:06:45,772 --> 00:06:46,939
and if I threaten you,

204
00:06:46,939 --> 00:06:48,441
I'm gonna blackmail you.

205
00:06:48,441 --> 00:06:49,876
(audience laughs)

206
00:06:49,876 --> 00:06:51,511
"So Mama, why don't 
they call it whitemail?

207
00:06:51,511 --> 00:06:52,678
"They lie, too."

208
00:06:52,678 --> 00:06:54,046
- I loved being around him.

209
00:06:54,046 --> 00:06:57,417
I loved being 
around Muhammad Ali.

210
00:06:57,417 --> 00:06:58,985
- [Muhammad] You gonna 
float like a butterfly

211
00:06:58,985 --> 00:07:00,520
and sting like a bee.

212
00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:01,888
- [Both] Ahh!

213
00:07:01,888 --> 00:07:03,756
- Rumble, young man, rumble.

214
00:07:03,756 --> 00:07:05,024
- [Both] Ahh!

215
00:07:05,024 --> 00:07:06,626
- [Muhammad] The price 
of freedom runs high.

216
00:07:06,626 --> 00:07:08,961
I have paid, but I am free.

217
00:07:08,961 --> 00:07:11,664
♪ Freedom, freedom, 
I can't move ♪

218
00:07:11,664 --> 00:07:13,332
♪ Freedom, cut me loose ♪

219
00:07:13,332 --> 00:07:14,667
- [Announcer] The winner is,

220
00:07:14,667 --> 00:07:17,870
and still heavyweight 
champion of the world!

221
00:07:17,870 --> 00:07:19,105
(audience chants)

222
00:07:19,105 --> 00:07:22,341
- [Muhammad] I'm the 
greatest of all time.

223
00:07:22,341 --> 00:07:23,376
Of all time!

224
00:07:23,376 --> 00:07:25,144
♪ Rot in hell ♪

225
00:07:25,144 --> 00:07:27,513
♪ Hey, I'ma keep running ♪

226
00:07:27,513 --> 00:07:30,116
♪ 'Cause a winner don't 
quit on themselves ♪

227
00:07:30,116 --> 00:07:35,121
(upbeat music) 
(crowd roars)

228
00:07:35,855 --> 00:07:37,089
(slow jazz music)

229
00:07:37,089 --> 00:07:38,925
- [Narrator] He called 
himself "The Greatest,"

230
00:07:38,925 --> 00:07:41,227
and then proved it 
to the entire world.

231
00:07:42,695 --> 00:07:45,965
He was a master at what is 
called the sweet science,

232
00:07:45,965 --> 00:07:49,001
the brutal and sometimes 
beautiful art of boxing.

233
00:07:50,436 --> 00:07:53,139
Heavyweight champion 
at just 22 years old,

234
00:07:53,139 --> 00:07:56,909
he wrote his own rules in 
the ring and in his life,

235
00:07:56,909 --> 00:07:58,644
infuriating his critics,

236
00:07:58,644 --> 00:08:00,413
baffling his opponents,

237
00:08:00,413 --> 00:08:02,482
and riveting millions of fans.

238
00:08:02,482 --> 00:08:04,283
(slow jazz music)

239
00:08:04,283 --> 00:08:06,118
At the height of the 
civil rights movement,

240
00:08:06,118 --> 00:08:08,521
he joined a separatist 
religious sect

241
00:08:08,521 --> 00:08:10,356
whose leader would, for a time,

242
00:08:10,356 --> 00:08:13,860
dominate both his personal 
life and his boxing career.

243
00:08:15,027 --> 00:08:17,797
He spoke his mind and 
stood on principle,

244
00:08:17,797 --> 00:08:19,665
even when it cost 
him his livelihood.

245
00:08:21,267 --> 00:08:23,870
He redefined Black manhood,

246
00:08:23,870 --> 00:08:25,805
yet belittled his greatest rival

247
00:08:25,805 --> 00:08:28,541
using the racist language 
of the Jim Crow South

248
00:08:28,541 --> 00:08:30,176
in which he had been raised.

249
00:08:30,176 --> 00:08:31,878
(crowd murmurs)

250
00:08:31,878 --> 00:08:33,346
Banished for his beliefs,

251
00:08:33,346 --> 00:08:35,982
he returned to 
boxing an underdog,

252
00:08:35,982 --> 00:08:38,384
reclaimed his title twice,

253
00:08:38,384 --> 00:08:40,686
and became the most 
famous man on Earth.

254
00:08:42,622 --> 00:08:45,258
He craved adulation 
his whole life,

255
00:08:45,258 --> 00:08:47,493
seeking crowds on 
street corners,

256
00:08:47,493 --> 00:08:49,161
in hotel lobbies,

257
00:08:49,161 --> 00:08:51,097
on airport tarmacs,

258
00:08:51,097 --> 00:08:53,065
everywhere he went,

259
00:08:53,065 --> 00:08:55,668
and reveled in the 
uninhibited joy

260
00:08:55,668 --> 00:08:57,770
he brought each adoring fan.

261
00:08:57,770 --> 00:08:59,438
(slow jazz music)

262
00:08:59,438 --> 00:09:01,507
He earned a massive fortune,

263
00:09:01,507 --> 00:09:03,175
spent it freely,

264
00:09:03,175 --> 00:09:07,880
and gave generously to family, 
friends, even strangers.

265
00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:09,015
Anyone in need.

266
00:09:10,283 --> 00:09:12,518
"Service to others," 
he often said,

267
00:09:12,518 --> 00:09:15,988
"is the rent you pay for 
your room here on Earth."

268
00:09:15,988 --> 00:09:17,623
(slow jazz music)

269
00:09:17,623 --> 00:09:20,226
Even after his body 
began to betray him

270
00:09:20,226 --> 00:09:22,995
and his brain had 
absorbed too many blows,

271
00:09:22,995 --> 00:09:23,963
he fought on,

272
00:09:25,097 --> 00:09:27,366
unable to go without 
the attention and drama

273
00:09:27,366 --> 00:09:28,901
that accompanied each bout.

274
00:09:28,901 --> 00:09:30,870
(slow jazz music)

275
00:09:30,870 --> 00:09:35,708
Later, slowed and silenced by 
a cruel and crippling disease,

276
00:09:35,708 --> 00:09:38,244
he found refuge in his faith,

277
00:09:38,244 --> 00:09:41,514
becoming a symbol of peace 
and hope on every continent.

278
00:09:41,514 --> 00:09:43,282
(slow jazz music)

279
00:09:43,282 --> 00:09:46,752
"Muhammad Ali was," the 
novelist Norman Mailer wrote,

280
00:09:46,752 --> 00:09:49,322
"the very spirit of 
the 20th century."

281
00:09:49,322 --> 00:09:51,223
(slow jazz music)

282
00:09:51,223 --> 00:09:53,225
- I'm always going 
to be one Black one

283
00:09:53,225 --> 00:09:55,628
who got big on your 
white televisions,

284
00:09:55,628 --> 00:09:56,929
on your white newspapers,

285
00:09:56,929 --> 00:09:58,297
on your satellites,

286
00:09:58,297 --> 00:09:59,799
million dollar checks,

287
00:09:59,799 --> 00:10:02,168
and still look you in your 
face and tell you the truth,

288
00:10:02,168 --> 00:10:05,371
and 100% stay with and 
represent my people,

289
00:10:05,371 --> 00:10:07,840
and not leave 'em and sell 
'em out because I'm rich,

290
00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:08,741
and stay with 'em.

291
00:10:08,741 --> 00:10:09,842
That was my purpose.

292
00:10:09,842 --> 00:10:11,277
I'm here,

293
00:10:11,277 --> 00:10:12,578
and I'm showing the world 
that you can be here

294
00:10:12,578 --> 00:10:13,412
and still free,

295
00:10:13,412 --> 00:10:15,214
and stay yourself,

296
00:10:15,214 --> 00:10:16,649
and get respect from the world.

297
00:10:16,649 --> 00:10:19,318
(buzzer sounds)

298
00:10:25,257 --> 00:10:27,560
- All right, we are all here.

299
00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:28,761
Hi, everyone.

300
00:10:28,761 --> 00:10:29,595
Can you hear me?

301
00:10:29,595 --> 00:10:30,463
We're all good?

302
00:10:32,531 --> 00:10:33,766
Hi, everyone,

303
00:10:33,766 --> 00:10:35,901
I'm Lonnae O'Neal 
with The Undefeated,

304
00:10:35,901 --> 00:10:38,738
and I am delighted 
to be here tonight

305
00:10:38,738 --> 00:10:43,075
for our conversation, "Ali 
On the World's Stage."

306
00:10:43,075 --> 00:10:46,646
I'm joined in this virtual 
space by our illustrious panel.

307
00:10:46,646 --> 00:10:49,649
Ken Burns, whose 40 
years of filmmaking

308
00:10:49,649 --> 00:10:52,118
has given us some of 
the most revealing

309
00:10:52,118 --> 00:10:55,087
and acclaimed historical 
documentaries ever made,

310
00:10:55,087 --> 00:10:57,923
and who now brings us 
this sweeping new look

311
00:10:57,923 --> 00:11:00,493
at the life and meaning 
of Muhammad Ali.

312
00:11:00,493 --> 00:11:02,028
Ken, thank you for being here,

313
00:11:02,028 --> 00:11:04,797
and for making such 
a monumental film.

314
00:11:04,797 --> 00:11:05,665
- Thank you, Lonnae.

315
00:11:05,665 --> 00:11:07,667
- We have Todd Boyd,

316
00:11:07,667 --> 00:11:11,203
aka "the Notorious PhD."

317
00:11:11,203 --> 00:11:12,705
(Ken chuckles)

318
00:11:12,705 --> 00:11:14,440
He is the Katherine and 
Frank Price Endowed Chair

319
00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,043
for the Study of Race 
and Popular Culture,

320
00:11:17,043 --> 00:11:20,212
as well as professor of 
cinema and media studies

321
00:11:20,212 --> 00:11:23,282
at the USC School 
of Cinematic Arts.

322
00:11:23,282 --> 00:11:25,384
Dr. Boyd shares his insights

323
00:11:25,384 --> 00:11:27,153
in the Muhammad Ali documentary,

324
00:11:27,153 --> 00:11:29,955
and we're looking forward to 
hearing his thoughts tonight.

325
00:11:29,955 --> 00:11:32,058
Thank you so much, Dr. Boyd.

326
00:11:32,058 --> 00:11:33,259
- Thank you.

327
00:11:33,259 --> 00:11:35,261
- We are also very 
lucky to be joined by

328
00:11:35,261 --> 00:11:38,531
five-time Olympic 
medalist Janet Evans.

329
00:11:38,531 --> 00:11:40,733
She's the chief athlete officer

330
00:11:40,733 --> 00:11:44,403
of the Los Angeles 
2028 Olympic Committee,

331
00:11:44,403 --> 00:11:48,641
and it was Evans who passed 
the Olympic flame to Ali

332
00:11:48,641 --> 00:11:53,612
at the opening ceremony 
of the Atlanta 1996 Games.

333
00:11:53,612 --> 00:11:56,282
Janet, thank you so 
much for being here.

334
00:11:56,282 --> 00:11:57,983
- Honored, thank 
you for having me.

335
00:11:59,618 --> 00:12:02,555
- As we all know, this 
is the 25th anniversary

336
00:12:02,555 --> 00:12:05,491
of the lighting of 
that Olympic torch,

337
00:12:05,491 --> 00:12:07,560
and, almost to the minute.

338
00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:11,630
And so, for those of us who 
remember seeing it live,

339
00:12:11,630 --> 00:12:14,600
I think we scarcely 
could have imagined

340
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:19,071
the impact and the staying 
power that moment would have,

341
00:12:19,071 --> 00:12:23,075
both here in the United 
States and around the world.

342
00:12:23,075 --> 00:12:26,078
Ken, can you set up the 
clip we're gonna watch,

343
00:12:26,078 --> 00:12:29,081
and, that became such 
an enduring image

344
00:12:29,081 --> 00:12:31,083
of Ali on the world stage?

345
00:12:31,083 --> 00:12:32,585
- Of course, Lonnae,

346
00:12:32,585 --> 00:12:35,154
and thank you so much for 
having me this evening.

347
00:12:35,154 --> 00:12:37,490
We're so excited 
to share the film,

348
00:12:37,490 --> 00:12:40,860
and I'm speaking on behalf 
of my two codirectors,

349
00:12:40,860 --> 00:12:43,195
Sarah Burns and David McMahon.

350
00:12:43,195 --> 00:12:46,632
Sarah is my oldest daughter 
and David is my son-in-law,

351
00:12:46,632 --> 00:12:49,101
and we have been collaborating 
on a number of things,

352
00:12:49,101 --> 00:12:52,338
no more more important to 
ourselves and our hearts

353
00:12:52,338 --> 00:12:53,906
than this one.

354
00:12:53,906 --> 00:12:55,775
They were also, Sarah and 
Dave, the writer of this.

355
00:12:55,775 --> 00:12:58,611
And so, you know, sort 
of out of sequence,

356
00:12:58,611 --> 00:13:00,546
we want to jump ahead,

357
00:13:00,546 --> 00:13:03,048
given this distinguished panel,

358
00:13:03,048 --> 00:13:04,617
and show you a clip from

359
00:13:04,617 --> 00:13:08,921
very near the end of the fourth 
episode of four in our film.

360
00:13:08,921 --> 00:13:12,291
It is 1996,

361
00:13:12,291 --> 00:13:15,594
exactly 25 years ago 
tonight to the moment,

362
00:13:15,594 --> 00:13:17,863
as you said, Lonnae.

363
00:13:17,863 --> 00:13:19,865
He's been out of the 
public eye for awhile,

364
00:13:19,865 --> 00:13:23,502
and this is just a 
short, brief clip of us

365
00:13:25,204 --> 00:13:26,505
trying to come to terms with

366
00:13:26,505 --> 00:13:29,909
one of the most powerful 
moments in his life,

367
00:13:29,909 --> 00:13:31,577
a great human moment for him,

368
00:13:31,577 --> 00:13:33,879
but an even greater 
moment for humanity

369
00:13:33,879 --> 00:13:36,215
where billions of 
people got to share

370
00:13:36,215 --> 00:13:39,685
the same moment of 
healing together,

371
00:13:39,685 --> 00:13:41,854
and it's an indelible moment,

372
00:13:41,854 --> 00:13:44,290
so let's roll the 
next clip. (mumbles)

373
00:13:44,290 --> 00:13:46,192
(slow hip-hop music)

374
00:13:46,192 --> 00:13:48,694
- [Narrator] In 1996, 
the Olympic Committee

375
00:13:48,694 --> 00:13:50,663
planning the Summer 
Games in Atlanta

376
00:13:50,663 --> 00:13:53,232
asked Muhammad Ali 
to light the torch

377
00:13:53,232 --> 00:13:55,634
at the opening ceremonies.

378
00:13:55,634 --> 00:13:57,837
At first, Ali declined.

379
00:13:57,837 --> 00:13:59,972
He didn't want to be seen 
shaking and stumbling

380
00:13:59,972 --> 00:14:01,040
on that stage,

381
00:14:02,274 --> 00:14:04,844
but his friend Howard 
Bingham convinced him.

382
00:14:04,844 --> 00:14:07,112
"This is the thing where 
the world is saying

383
00:14:07,112 --> 00:14:09,915
thank you for all that 
you've done over your life,"

384
00:14:09,915 --> 00:14:11,617
Bingham told him.

385
00:14:11,617 --> 00:14:13,819
"There will be 3 billion 
people watching."

386
00:14:14,787 --> 00:14:16,655
(crowd cheers)

387
00:14:16,655 --> 00:14:19,558
(triumphant music)

388
00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:23,195
- [Narrator] The plans 
were kept secret.

389
00:14:23,195 --> 00:14:25,264
- [Announcer] Do 
you recognize her?

390
00:14:25,264 --> 00:14:26,365
Janet Evans.

391
00:14:26,365 --> 00:14:28,534
(triumphant music)

392
00:14:28,534 --> 00:14:30,603
Considered the greatest 
female distance swimmer

393
00:14:30,603 --> 00:14:32,304
of all times. 
(crowd cheers)

394
00:14:32,304 --> 00:14:34,139
- And it was planned 
very brilliantly.

395
00:14:34,139 --> 00:14:36,976
I mean, people really thought 
the swimmer Janet Evans

396
00:14:36,976 --> 00:14:38,210
was going to be the person

397
00:14:38,210 --> 00:14:39,712
who was going to 
light that torch,

398
00:14:41,046 --> 00:14:43,048
but instead, out of 
nowhere comes Muhammad Ali.

399
00:14:43,048 --> 00:14:48,053
(slow guitar music) 
(crowd cheers)

400
00:14:52,157 --> 00:14:54,460
♪ It's a long ♪

401
00:14:54,460 --> 00:14:56,595
♪ I'll take the long road ♪

402
00:14:56,595 --> 00:14:57,997
- You hadn't really 
seen him in awhile.

403
00:14:57,997 --> 00:14:58,931
You knew he was sick,

404
00:14:58,931 --> 00:15:00,699
and when you would see him,

405
00:15:00,699 --> 00:15:04,136
he was clearly showing the 
effects of the illness,

406
00:15:04,136 --> 00:15:06,405
but he hadn't been 
seen that much,

407
00:15:06,405 --> 00:15:09,508
and then, here he is in 
this big prominent moment,

408
00:15:09,508 --> 00:15:11,777
and he's holding that 
torch and he's shaking.

409
00:15:13,245 --> 00:15:16,615
And I, man, I'm 
about to cry now.

410
00:15:17,483 --> 00:15:18,784
It was hard to watch,

411
00:15:20,219 --> 00:15:23,956
because you don't want to 
see your guy like that.

412
00:15:23,956 --> 00:15:25,858
You don't want to see that,

413
00:15:25,858 --> 00:15:27,326
but you saw it.

414
00:15:27,326 --> 00:15:29,428
(slow guitar music)

415
00:15:29,428 --> 00:15:31,030
- He was defenseless.

416
00:15:31,030 --> 00:15:34,166
Now, he can't hurt us anymore.

417
00:15:34,166 --> 00:15:36,468
You know, he can't 
make us mad anymore,

418
00:15:36,468 --> 00:15:38,070
(slow guitar music)

419
00:15:38,070 --> 00:15:39,371
because now he's,

420
00:15:40,706 --> 00:15:44,109
the game that we ask him 
to play to entertain us

421
00:15:45,277 --> 00:15:47,079
has left him looking like this.

422
00:15:48,314 --> 00:15:51,350
And now, we feel some 
sympathy, if not guilt.

423
00:15:53,118 --> 00:15:57,356
We see him shaking, 
trembling up there.

424
00:15:57,356 --> 00:15:59,158
The most beautiful moving,

425
00:15:59,158 --> 00:16:02,428
most beautiful athlete in 
motion you've ever seen,

426
00:16:02,428 --> 00:16:05,230
and now he can't hold 
the torch, you know?

427
00:16:05,230 --> 00:16:07,700
So we feel guilt and 
we feel sympathy.

428
00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:08,534
We want to hug him.

429
00:16:08,534 --> 00:16:09,735
We want to embrace him.

430
00:16:09,735 --> 00:16:11,870
We want to ask his 
forgiveness, you know?

431
00:16:11,870 --> 00:16:16,408
Everything, and for every 
reason that we disliked him,

432
00:16:16,408 --> 00:16:17,343
now we love him,

433
00:16:18,911 --> 00:16:20,179
you know, because he was right.

434
00:16:20,179 --> 00:16:25,184
(crowd cheers) 
(slow guitar music)

435
00:16:26,452 --> 00:16:28,921
(flames crackle)

436
00:16:28,921 --> 00:16:31,924
- And it was striking 
to see this evolution,

437
00:16:31,924 --> 00:16:33,792
not in Ali,

438
00:16:33,792 --> 00:16:34,994
but in us.

439
00:16:34,994 --> 00:16:36,261
(slow guitar music)

440
00:16:36,261 --> 00:16:38,497
Ah, it just struck 
me so amazingly

441
00:16:38,497 --> 00:16:42,167
to watch Ali, like, 
riding this torch.

442
00:16:42,167 --> 00:16:43,535
(slow guitar music)

443
00:16:43,535 --> 00:16:45,204
People weeping.

444
00:16:45,204 --> 00:16:46,805
(slow guitar music)

445
00:16:46,805 --> 00:16:47,673
It's amazing.

446
00:16:48,874 --> 00:16:52,745
And you cast back not 
so many years before,

447
00:16:52,745 --> 00:16:55,414
and some huge amount 
of the country

448
00:16:55,414 --> 00:16:59,151
thought this guy 
was the Antichrist,

449
00:16:59,151 --> 00:17:00,285
or they chose to hate him,

450
00:17:00,285 --> 00:17:01,987
or they made him a foil

451
00:17:01,987 --> 00:17:04,656
to the other guy that 
they liked better.

452
00:17:04,656 --> 00:17:07,192
And it's entirely possible

453
00:17:07,192 --> 00:17:09,528
that human beings are capable 
of learning something.

454
00:17:09,528 --> 00:17:12,331
♪ I'll take the long 
road, yeah, yeah ♪

455
00:17:12,331 --> 00:17:16,168
- [Narrator] The outpouring of 
love caught Ali by surprise.

456
00:17:16,168 --> 00:17:18,404
"Parkinson's robs 
you of confidence,"

457
00:17:18,404 --> 00:17:19,905
Lonnie told a reporter.

458
00:17:19,905 --> 00:17:23,075
"Now he knows the public 
will love him and accept him,

459
00:17:23,075 --> 00:17:25,077
"no matter what he has."

460
00:17:25,077 --> 00:17:28,080
(slow guitar music)

461
00:17:32,418 --> 00:17:33,252
- Wow.

462
00:17:35,020 --> 00:17:36,388
Wow, wow, wow.

463
00:17:38,223 --> 00:17:43,228
Janet, that was such an 
image of Ali for the ages.

464
00:17:48,434 --> 00:17:52,037
- I, yes, and I was 
telling all of you

465
00:17:52,037 --> 00:17:54,139
a few minutes ago 
before we came on

466
00:17:54,139 --> 00:17:57,943
that I'm asked all 
the time about it.

467
00:17:57,943 --> 00:17:59,812
So when someone to, 
this morning said to me,

468
00:17:59,812 --> 00:18:02,314
"It's been 25 years, does 
it feel like 25 years?"

469
00:18:02,314 --> 00:18:03,582
My answer was "No,"

470
00:18:03,582 --> 00:18:06,151
because I am blessed 
with the opportunity

471
00:18:07,286 --> 00:18:10,389
to be able to tell 
this side of my story

472
00:18:10,389 --> 00:18:12,858
where I was present 
in that moment.

473
00:18:12,858 --> 00:18:15,260
And, you know, on a 
personal note, for me,

474
00:18:16,562 --> 00:18:19,998
it transcended all of 
my Olympic moments.

475
00:18:19,998 --> 00:18:21,467
You know, I was a 
three-time Olympian.

476
00:18:21,467 --> 00:18:24,169
I represented our country 
like Ali at the Olympic Games,

477
00:18:24,169 --> 00:18:27,106
which is the penultimate 
athletic experience.

478
00:18:27,106 --> 00:18:28,474
And, you know, I tell people,

479
00:18:28,474 --> 00:18:30,976
I'd give up every 
single one of my medals

480
00:18:30,976 --> 00:18:33,579
to be present in 
that moment again.

481
00:18:33,579 --> 00:18:38,016
And, you know, I was young 
when, I was born in 1971.

482
00:18:38,016 --> 00:18:42,254
And so I wasn't 
witness to a lot,

483
00:18:42,254 --> 00:18:43,622
and I was very young.

484
00:18:43,622 --> 00:18:47,326
So, for me, the 
phenomenon of Muhammad Ali

485
00:18:47,326 --> 00:18:49,061
really began in 
that moment for me.

486
00:18:49,061 --> 00:18:51,830
I mean, of course I knew 
him and I knew who he was,

487
00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:54,666
but when I was standing there

488
00:18:54,666 --> 00:18:56,869
and he was lighting 
that cauldron,

489
00:18:56,869 --> 00:19:00,873
and he was standing there 
shaking with the torch,

490
00:19:00,873 --> 00:19:03,642
I felt like he was giving 
it to the world, right?

491
00:19:03,642 --> 00:19:08,647
I mean, that was the emotion 
that was coming from him, was,

492
00:19:09,381 --> 00:19:10,115
this is yours, right?

493
00:19:10,115 --> 00:19:11,617
I am here.

494
00:19:11,617 --> 00:19:13,018
This is yours.

495
00:19:13,018 --> 00:19:17,289
I am that person who is bringing 
you together once again,

496
00:19:17,289 --> 00:19:18,690
in happiness or not,

497
00:19:18,690 --> 00:19:21,827
but I am here in this moment,

498
00:19:22,995 --> 00:19:25,964
and it was courage 
and generosity,

499
00:19:25,964 --> 00:19:27,833
and to me, it was graciousness.

500
00:19:27,833 --> 00:19:32,204
And, you know, I think 
athletes, in general,

501
00:19:32,204 --> 00:19:34,039
struggle with transition.

502
00:19:34,039 --> 00:19:36,041
We struggle with not being

503
00:19:36,041 --> 00:19:38,477
the great swimmer for 
the rest of our lives

504
00:19:38,477 --> 00:19:40,479
or the great boxer,

505
00:19:40,479 --> 00:19:42,748
but what Ali did 
on that night was

506
00:19:42,748 --> 00:19:45,083
he gave all of us, 
myself included,

507
00:19:46,251 --> 00:19:49,021
this knowledge that 
you don't have to

508
00:19:49,021 --> 00:19:51,023
be able to get in a 
ring and box anymore.

509
00:19:51,023 --> 00:19:53,225
You can, and be ill.

510
00:19:53,225 --> 00:19:54,826
You know, I lost my dad to ALS,

511
00:19:54,826 --> 00:19:57,329
so I'm very familiar 
with this disease.

512
00:19:57,329 --> 00:19:58,897
And I, you could see him,

513
00:19:58,897 --> 00:20:01,867
you could see his mind working

514
00:20:01,867 --> 00:20:03,669
and trying to make his body

515
00:20:03,669 --> 00:20:06,038
with this torch 
light that flame.

516
00:20:06,038 --> 00:20:08,941
And, you know, I think 
he said to the world,

517
00:20:08,941 --> 00:20:10,175
it doesn't matter.

518
00:20:10,175 --> 00:20:12,044
It doesn't matter 
if you're sick,

519
00:20:12,044 --> 00:20:15,314
it doesn't matter what 
your position in life is.

520
00:20:15,314 --> 00:20:17,316
We are here to inspire,

521
00:20:17,316 --> 00:20:20,118
or we are here to stand 
for something, you know?

522
00:20:20,118 --> 00:20:22,054
Here he was in the South, 
a Black man, right,

523
00:20:22,054 --> 00:20:24,356
and then being adulated.

524
00:20:25,557 --> 00:20:29,895
And I think it's such 
a resonating moment

525
00:20:29,895 --> 00:20:31,897
within my world of 
the Olympic movement

526
00:20:32,798 --> 00:20:35,033
because it defined to many of us

527
00:20:35,033 --> 00:20:36,468
what the Olympic movement is,

528
00:20:36,468 --> 00:20:38,136
which is not medals.

529
00:20:38,136 --> 00:20:39,371
It's not winning,

530
00:20:39,371 --> 00:20:41,640
and Ali certainly wouldn't have

531
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,875
won a boxing match that evening,

532
00:20:43,875 --> 00:20:45,244
but he said to the world,

533
00:20:45,244 --> 00:20:46,945
you can still make an impact.

534
00:20:46,945 --> 00:20:48,614
You can still make a difference.

535
00:20:48,614 --> 00:20:50,649
It doesn't matter what 
your lot in life is,

536
00:20:50,649 --> 00:20:53,318
and I think that's 
why this message

537
00:20:53,318 --> 00:20:55,320
still resonates on 
a personal level.

538
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,190
It made me realize that 
my platform as an Olympian

539
00:20:58,190 --> 00:20:59,424
was an important platform,

540
00:20:59,424 --> 00:21:01,093
and the medals, yeah, 
they're wonderful,

541
00:21:01,093 --> 00:21:04,229
but my platform is to 
change lives for athletes

542
00:21:04,229 --> 00:21:05,764
and inspire and motivate them,

543
00:21:05,764 --> 00:21:10,369
and 100%, I give that to Ali 
for inspiring me to do that,

544
00:21:10,969 --> 00:21:11,370
even now, today.

545
00:21:12,738 --> 00:21:14,740
- And in everything 
you just said,

546
00:21:14,740 --> 00:21:17,542
just, the moment becomes 
representative of

547
00:21:17,542 --> 00:21:20,846
this international 
Olympic ideal, right?

548
00:21:22,547 --> 00:21:24,950
And Todd, so, in the film,

549
00:21:24,950 --> 00:21:29,921
you are so affected when 
you're talking about Ali

550
00:21:29,921 --> 00:21:34,926
and the ravages of what 
he was going through,

551
00:21:36,061 --> 00:21:39,031
and you talked about 
it being hard to watch.

552
00:21:39,031 --> 00:21:41,833
What so moved you 
in this moment,

553
00:21:41,833 --> 00:21:43,335
and by extension,

554
00:21:43,335 --> 00:21:46,338
the millions of people 
watching around the world?

555
00:21:46,338 --> 00:21:48,473
What were we all responding to?

556
00:21:49,908 --> 00:21:54,212
- Well, I can speak to 
that at a personal level.

557
00:21:54,212 --> 00:21:59,184
I think different people would 
have different responses,

558
00:22:00,352 --> 00:22:03,288
and I so appreciate 
the opportunity of

559
00:22:03,288 --> 00:22:05,824
hearing Janet Evans 
describe that experience

560
00:22:05,824 --> 00:22:08,760
from being there on 
the platform with him,

561
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,330
which is, you know, such 
a unique experience,

562
00:22:11,330 --> 00:22:14,433
but I think different 
people reacted differently.

563
00:22:14,433 --> 00:22:17,736
What you got from me in the film

564
00:22:18,737 --> 00:22:20,205
is something quite unusual,

565
00:22:20,205 --> 00:22:23,041
and that is a show of emotion.

566
00:22:23,041 --> 00:22:26,712
You don't get to be 
"the Notorious PhD" 
by showing emotion,

567
00:22:27,846 --> 00:22:29,815
so this is rare, 
but it was genuine.

568
00:22:29,815 --> 00:22:34,820
And, you know, when I think 
about that moment, even now,

569
00:22:36,021 --> 00:22:37,222
I mean, how many times 
have I seen that clip?

570
00:22:37,222 --> 00:22:39,191
How many times have 
people asked me

571
00:22:39,191 --> 00:22:40,659
to comment on it in my career?

572
00:22:40,659 --> 00:22:44,796
Like, I lost count, 
you know, 20 years ago.

573
00:22:44,796 --> 00:22:46,164
This is something 
I've been asked

574
00:22:46,164 --> 00:22:48,300
to comment about a great deal.

575
00:22:49,801 --> 00:22:52,804
Things, you know, I talk 
about it with friends of mine.

576
00:22:52,804 --> 00:22:56,174
I mean, it's common in my life,

577
00:22:56,174 --> 00:22:57,642
and no matter when I see it,

578
00:22:57,642 --> 00:22:59,478
I have the same reaction to it.

579
00:23:01,146 --> 00:23:05,450
Part of it is, you 
know, exhilarating,

580
00:23:05,450 --> 00:23:07,352
and another part of 
it is depressing,

581
00:23:08,787 --> 00:23:13,225
and I think it's the sort 
of clash of those things

582
00:23:13,225 --> 00:23:15,127
that made it so emotional.

583
00:23:15,127 --> 00:23:17,796
You know, I don't 
have any children,

584
00:23:17,796 --> 00:23:21,733
but someone told me once 
that when babies cry,

585
00:23:21,733 --> 00:23:23,802
they're trying to express 
themself and they can't,

586
00:23:23,802 --> 00:23:27,139
and that's the only way 
that they can get across

587
00:23:27,139 --> 00:23:29,274
what it is they're 
trying to say.

588
00:23:29,274 --> 00:23:30,976
And in that moment, I,

589
00:23:30,976 --> 00:23:33,678
you know, I'm a person who 
makes my living with words,

590
00:23:33,678 --> 00:23:35,080
and I had no words.

591
00:23:36,648 --> 00:23:38,917
On one hand, you know, 
you're talking about

592
00:23:40,385 --> 00:23:43,455
the evidence of an American hero

593
00:23:44,856 --> 00:23:47,993
standing on a stage in front 
of the world in Atlanta,

594
00:23:47,993 --> 00:23:50,128
which is important 
for numerous reasons,

595
00:23:50,128 --> 00:23:54,766
one of which is the place 
that he began his comeback

596
00:23:54,766 --> 00:23:56,001
after being in exile,

597
00:23:56,001 --> 00:23:58,103
so there's that piece of it,

598
00:23:58,103 --> 00:24:02,073
but the idea of a Black 
man as an American hero.

599
00:24:02,073 --> 00:24:05,544
And I think what's 
unique about Ali is,

600
00:24:05,544 --> 00:24:09,181
this is a Black man who, 
back in the 1960s and '70s,

601
00:24:09,181 --> 00:24:12,784
consciously went against 
the establishment.

602
00:24:12,784 --> 00:24:15,020
He went against the grain.

603
00:24:15,020 --> 00:24:19,991
He was not, you know, Jesse 
Owens in 1936 at the Olympics.

604
00:24:19,991 --> 00:24:22,861
He was not Joe Louis 
in the late 1930s

605
00:24:22,861 --> 00:24:24,296
against Max Schmeling,

606
00:24:24,296 --> 00:24:27,332
doing something that 
Americans across the board

607
00:24:27,332 --> 00:24:29,067
could embrace and celebrate

608
00:24:29,067 --> 00:24:32,137
and hold up as 
emblematic of the nation,

609
00:24:32,137 --> 00:24:34,606
in spite of what these 
individuals experienced

610
00:24:34,606 --> 00:24:36,875
as Black people in America.

611
00:24:36,875 --> 00:24:40,679
This was a Black person 
who went against the system

612
00:24:40,679 --> 00:24:42,981
in a very direct way,

613
00:24:42,981 --> 00:24:45,217
and here it is, all 
these years later,

614
00:24:46,084 --> 00:24:48,286
and he's standing on this stage

615
00:24:48,286 --> 00:24:51,289
and he's being embraced by

616
00:24:51,289 --> 00:24:54,659
the nation that he 
once had to defy.

617
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,863
And at the same time,

618
00:24:57,863 --> 00:25:02,000
he's someone with a 
debilitating illness that,

619
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,504
if we're all able 
to live long lives,

620
00:25:05,504 --> 00:25:08,039
something is going 
to happen to us,

621
00:25:08,039 --> 00:25:11,343
and we're gonna experience 
aging and illness,

622
00:25:11,343 --> 00:25:13,612
and you don't see 
that every day.

623
00:25:13,612 --> 00:25:16,248
Maybe you see it in your 
personal life with your family,

624
00:25:16,248 --> 00:25:18,149
but in terms of public figures,

625
00:25:19,084 --> 00:25:21,353
you know, Ronald Reagan spent

626
00:25:21,353 --> 00:25:23,088
the last years of his presidency

627
00:25:23,088 --> 00:25:25,390
and the last years 
of his life very ill.

628
00:25:25,390 --> 00:25:27,025
We didn't see that.

629
00:25:27,025 --> 00:25:28,260
If we had seen it,

630
00:25:28,260 --> 00:25:31,162
it would affect how 
we see Ronald Reagan.

631
00:25:31,162 --> 00:25:34,332
So here we were looking at Ali,

632
00:25:34,332 --> 00:25:36,535
celebrating him,

633
00:25:36,535 --> 00:25:41,406
but what we're looking at 
is not pleasant to the eye,

634
00:25:41,406 --> 00:25:46,411
and it's specifically because 
the profession he excelled in,

635
00:25:47,579 --> 00:25:50,382
boxing was one that 
the longer he did it,

636
00:25:50,382 --> 00:25:54,252
the more impact it took 
on his life physically.

637
00:25:54,252 --> 00:25:57,055
So there's a part of 
me that looks at this

638
00:25:57,055 --> 00:25:59,524
and sees this American hero,

639
00:25:59,524 --> 00:26:01,860
this Black man who went 
against the system,

640
00:26:01,860 --> 00:26:03,628
being embraced.

641
00:26:03,628 --> 00:26:07,999
And in a way, people are saying, 
"You were right all along,"

642
00:26:07,999 --> 00:26:10,969
but then there's the 
other part of it of,

643
00:26:10,969 --> 00:26:12,871
you know, he kept boxing.

644
00:26:12,871 --> 00:26:15,206
He took all these punches.

645
00:26:15,206 --> 00:26:16,741
The second half of his career

646
00:26:16,741 --> 00:26:19,511
is really defined 
in terms of boxing

647
00:26:19,511 --> 00:26:22,914
by his ability to 
continually take a punch,

648
00:26:24,015 --> 00:26:25,550
but he took too many.

649
00:26:25,550 --> 00:26:28,920
And so, you know, 
staying in the ring,

650
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,623
his profession brought 
him to this point,

651
00:26:31,623 --> 00:26:32,924
and you're sitting 
there watching it,

652
00:26:32,924 --> 00:26:34,459
and that's not pleasant,

653
00:26:34,459 --> 00:26:36,428
but on the other hand,

654
00:26:36,428 --> 00:26:37,596
this is Ali.

655
00:26:38,797 --> 00:26:40,398
As he says, "Keep 
the camera moving,

656
00:26:40,398 --> 00:26:42,267
"'cause I'm kinda fast."

657
00:26:42,267 --> 00:26:43,368
He's not that fast.

658
00:26:43,368 --> 00:26:45,537
He's shaking, he's trembling,

659
00:26:45,537 --> 00:26:47,739
but he's an American hero,

660
00:26:47,739 --> 00:26:49,140
and we saw it,

661
00:26:49,140 --> 00:26:52,377
and here we are 25 years 
later talking about it

662
00:26:52,377 --> 00:26:57,182
and, you know, looking at 
clips of a life well lived.

663
00:26:59,651 --> 00:27:01,853
- So, Ken, kind 
of piggybacking on

664
00:27:01,853 --> 00:27:03,722
what Todd was saying, right,

665
00:27:03,722 --> 00:27:05,256
time is undefeated,

666
00:27:06,691 --> 00:27:09,928
and I am struck by the way 
his Olympic experience,

667
00:27:09,928 --> 00:27:14,733
which began, of course, with 
winning the gold medal in 1960,

668
00:27:14,733 --> 00:27:17,769
and ends with this 
torch lighting,

669
00:27:17,769 --> 00:27:19,704
and, so these served as a,

670
00:27:19,704 --> 00:27:22,173
the torch lighting 
serves as a bookend,

671
00:27:22,173 --> 00:27:25,243
and, to much of his 
time on the world stage.

672
00:27:26,711 --> 00:27:31,116
So what were the 
universal themes

673
00:27:31,116 --> 00:27:34,719
that were contained 
within those bookends?

674
00:27:34,719 --> 00:27:36,721
The humanity captured,

675
00:27:36,721 --> 00:27:39,491
going from the young, 
brash Olympic hopeful

676
00:27:39,491 --> 00:27:42,293
to the former champion,

677
00:27:42,293 --> 00:27:45,597
allowing us once again 
to see his true self?

678
00:27:46,698 --> 00:27:47,899
What did that mean to you?

679
00:27:47,899 --> 00:27:50,168
In what ways did, does 
that speak to you?

680
00:27:51,469 --> 00:27:53,571
- This is a really 
excellent question, Lonnae,

681
00:27:53,571 --> 00:27:57,542
and I think Todd and Janet 
have spoken so eloquently.

682
00:27:57,542 --> 00:27:58,910
I'd like to back up a little bit

683
00:27:58,910 --> 00:28:01,880
before the Rome 
Olympics of 1960 to say,

684
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,082
there's something in this kid

685
00:28:04,082 --> 00:28:05,684
that we're seeing 
in the photographs.

686
00:28:05,684 --> 00:28:06,951
There's something in this kid

687
00:28:06,951 --> 00:28:10,288
that we're seeing in the 
earliest of the footage

688
00:28:10,288 --> 00:28:12,524
and in the first talking stuff

689
00:28:12,524 --> 00:28:15,960
where he's chosen 
boxing accidentally,

690
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,396
and he's, turns out to 
be really good at it.

691
00:28:18,396 --> 00:28:20,598
But he also has, 
underlying that,

692
00:28:20,598 --> 00:28:22,634
a real sense of 
purpose in the life.

693
00:28:22,634 --> 00:28:26,304
He's a kid born in Jim 
Crow America, a Black kid,

694
00:28:26,304 --> 00:28:28,973
and he's got something,

695
00:28:28,973 --> 00:28:30,508
a je ne sais quoi,

696
00:28:30,508 --> 00:28:32,510
that he is gonna go, 
whatever he's doing.

697
00:28:32,510 --> 00:28:35,180
I mean, you know, I told 
somebody earlier today,

698
00:28:35,180 --> 00:28:36,815
could have been a 
simple carpenter,

699
00:28:36,815 --> 00:28:39,184
and we know a few 
simple carpenters

700
00:28:39,184 --> 00:28:42,420
who've gone as far 
as he did, you know?

701
00:28:42,420 --> 00:28:45,990
And so, in a way, the 
Rome Olympics places him

702
00:28:45,990 --> 00:28:48,626
on a world stage 
that he never leaves,

703
00:28:48,626 --> 00:28:51,830
and it's really important 
that, from that moment,

704
00:28:51,830 --> 00:28:53,531
he begins to intersect with

705
00:28:53,531 --> 00:28:57,035
all the most important 
themes in American life.

706
00:28:57,035 --> 00:28:59,604
And they have to do 
with race in America,

707
00:28:59,604 --> 00:29:02,707
because that's the 
central theme of us,

708
00:29:02,707 --> 00:29:07,712
both the US and the two-letter 
lowercase plural pronoun,

709
00:29:08,446 --> 00:29:09,581
but also about religion.

710
00:29:09,581 --> 00:29:11,649
He chooses a separatist,

711
00:29:11,649 --> 00:29:14,519
separatist religious sect,

712
00:29:14,519 --> 00:29:16,888
a kinda hybrid of 
Islam that's not Islam.

713
00:29:16,888 --> 00:29:18,490
It's kind of an American thing.

714
00:29:18,490 --> 00:29:20,525
If PT Barnum was,

715
00:29:20,525 --> 00:29:23,194
you know, he might have 
invented something like that

716
00:29:23,194 --> 00:29:24,696
that also offered people,

717
00:29:24,696 --> 00:29:26,831
and Northern African Americans,

718
00:29:26,831 --> 00:29:28,533
a different kind of solution to

719
00:29:28,533 --> 00:29:32,203
the agrarian faith-based 
integrationists

720
00:29:32,203 --> 00:29:33,438
that Martin Luther King

721
00:29:33,438 --> 00:29:35,707
and the traditional 
civil rights offered.

722
00:29:35,707 --> 00:29:38,109
So he's beginning 
to, as Todd said,

723
00:29:38,109 --> 00:29:40,111
he's going against 
every kind of grain.

724
00:29:40,111 --> 00:29:42,247
At times, he is 
as threatening to

725
00:29:42,247 --> 00:29:44,149
a kind of middle-class 
Black American

726
00:29:44,149 --> 00:29:47,819
as he is terrifying to 
so many white Americans

727
00:29:47,819 --> 00:29:49,187
for the way he's standing up,

728
00:29:49,187 --> 00:29:50,455
for the way he's acting,

729
00:29:50,455 --> 00:29:52,090
for the way he's redefining,

730
00:29:52,090 --> 00:29:54,759
as we said in the 
intro, Black manhood,

731
00:29:54,759 --> 00:29:58,029
in a way that, a generation 
before, Jackie Robinson had.

732
00:29:58,029 --> 00:29:59,731
This is a totally 
different person.

733
00:29:59,731 --> 00:30:01,132
He's saying he's pretty.

734
00:30:01,132 --> 00:30:02,767
He's saying he's the greatest.

735
00:30:02,767 --> 00:30:05,537
He's saying he's, 
nobody can beat him.

736
00:30:05,537 --> 00:30:07,172
It is unheard of,

737
00:30:07,172 --> 00:30:09,174
and it is dissonant and jarring.

738
00:30:09,174 --> 00:30:10,575
It's hard to forget.

739
00:30:10,575 --> 00:30:13,778
There wasn't just this 
beautiful insouciance about him.

740
00:30:13,778 --> 00:30:15,280
It was threatening,

741
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,248
and so he's intersecting 
with all of these things.

742
00:30:17,248 --> 00:30:18,850
He's intersecting with politics.

743
00:30:18,850 --> 00:30:20,718
He's opposed to the Vietnam War.

744
00:30:20,718 --> 00:30:22,487
He's making a principled stand,

745
00:30:22,487 --> 00:30:25,723
and willing, as he said, 
as a young 20 year old,

746
00:30:26,825 --> 00:30:28,593
to risk a firing squad

747
00:30:29,794 --> 00:30:31,296
to uphold his beliefs.

748
00:30:31,296 --> 00:30:34,999
And so, you've got the entire 
country roiled up over him.

749
00:30:34,999 --> 00:30:36,768
He's changed his name.

750
00:30:36,768 --> 00:30:41,039
He's no longer the name of 
a celebrated abolitionist,

751
00:30:41,039 --> 00:30:43,107
but he's taken 
the, a Muslim name,

752
00:30:43,107 --> 00:30:45,210
and nobody wants 
to respect that,

753
00:30:45,210 --> 00:30:47,478
and so he's 
struggling with that.

754
00:30:47,478 --> 00:30:49,581
He's struggling against the 
United States government.

755
00:30:49,581 --> 00:30:51,616
He's struggling 
against his suspension

756
00:30:51,616 --> 00:30:52,851
and the three and a half years.

757
00:30:52,851 --> 00:30:55,386
The year that Janet was born,

758
00:30:55,386 --> 00:30:57,856
he fights Joe Frazier 
for the first time

759
00:30:57,856 --> 00:31:00,291
after a three-and-a-half-year 
absence,

760
00:31:00,291 --> 00:31:02,727
and he's full of 
all the braggadocio.

761
00:31:02,727 --> 00:31:06,497
He tear, he's horrible 
to Joe Frazier,

762
00:31:06,497 --> 00:31:07,966
and Joe Frazier beats him.

763
00:31:07,966 --> 00:31:11,469
And in the press conference 
afterwards, is he down?

764
00:31:11,469 --> 00:31:12,370
Is he embarrassed?

765
00:31:12,370 --> 00:31:13,371
Does he shirk this?

766
00:31:13,371 --> 00:31:14,572
No, he says, you know,

767
00:31:14,572 --> 00:31:16,174
"There's gonna be 
defeat in every life."

768
00:31:16,174 --> 00:31:18,543
And he realizes 
he's been a symbol

769
00:31:18,543 --> 00:31:21,079
for an awfully long time 
to the entire world,

770
00:31:21,079 --> 00:31:24,215
and he's gonna say, "I need 
to serve an as example."

771
00:31:24,215 --> 00:31:26,017
It's one of the 
most heroic thing.

772
00:31:26,017 --> 00:31:28,152
I know that Todd knows 
his speech really well.

773
00:31:28,152 --> 00:31:30,421
It's unbelievable when he is,

774
00:31:31,589 --> 00:31:33,524
you know, acquitted 
by the Supreme Court,

775
00:31:33,524 --> 00:31:34,759
exonerates him,

776
00:31:34,759 --> 00:31:36,694
and he no longer 
has to go to jail.

777
00:31:36,694 --> 00:31:39,163
They say, "Do you have faith 
in the justice system?"

778
00:31:39,163 --> 00:31:41,466
And he goes, "Well, I don't 
know who's gonna be killed

779
00:31:41,466 --> 00:31:43,768
"or who, what cop's 
gonna beat somebody up."

780
00:31:43,768 --> 00:31:45,036
You know, he doesn't say it,

781
00:31:45,036 --> 00:31:46,804
but who's the next 
Breonna Taylor?

782
00:31:46,804 --> 00:31:48,373
Who's the next George Floyd?

783
00:31:48,373 --> 00:31:49,874
Who's the next Trayvon Martin?

784
00:31:49,874 --> 00:31:54,012
He's there with 
everybody in the world

785
00:31:54,012 --> 00:31:56,781
who have ever felt oppressed.

786
00:31:56,781 --> 00:32:00,184
And so, he spends his life 
essentially intersecting with

787
00:32:00,184 --> 00:32:03,888
all the major themes of the 
last half of the 20th century.

788
00:32:03,888 --> 00:32:05,156
And lo and behold,

789
00:32:05,156 --> 00:32:06,858
as we work with our heads,

790
00:32:06,858 --> 00:32:09,327
nose to the grindstone 
on this project,

791
00:32:09,327 --> 00:32:12,330
we lift up after 
seven years and see,

792
00:32:12,330 --> 00:32:15,466
oh my goodness, he's talking 
about today, as well.

793
00:32:15,466 --> 00:32:19,871
And then you realize 
why tonight, as well,

794
00:32:19,871 --> 00:32:22,273
we are talking about this event.

795
00:32:22,273 --> 00:32:25,443
An athlete imprisoned 
by this disease,

796
00:32:25,443 --> 00:32:28,780
and yet, liberated by 
it at the same time,

797
00:32:28,780 --> 00:32:31,849
who has gone on to yet 
another kinda thing.

798
00:32:31,849 --> 00:32:36,354
The last film I made was on 
the writer Ernest Hemingway.

799
00:32:36,354 --> 00:32:38,256
That didn't end too well.

800
00:32:38,256 --> 00:32:39,190
This guy,

801
00:32:40,158 --> 00:32:42,026
beset by this disease,

802
00:32:42,026 --> 00:32:46,064
dies the most popular person,

803
00:32:46,064 --> 00:32:49,600
the most beloved 
person on the planet.

804
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,836
I'm really interested 
in who that is.

805
00:32:53,471 --> 00:32:57,175
- The most beloved 
person on the planet.

806
00:32:57,175 --> 00:33:02,080
Yet, we all 
personalize him, right?

807
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:03,915
Like, he's ours.

808
00:33:03,915 --> 00:33:05,683
We heard it from each of you,

809
00:33:05,683 --> 00:33:09,420
and Janet, just to sort 
of close out that look,

810
00:33:10,822 --> 00:33:12,357
at eye level,

811
00:33:13,758 --> 00:33:18,229
what did you see that the 
rest of the world didn't see,

812
00:33:19,630 --> 00:33:21,833
and what were you taking 
from, in that moment, right,

813
00:33:21,833 --> 00:33:24,135
that we all weren't privy to?

814
00:33:24,135 --> 00:33:25,937
- I saw confidence.

815
00:33:25,937 --> 00:33:29,941
I saw just a tiny bit 
of nervousness and fear,

816
00:33:29,941 --> 00:33:33,811
but I saw, you know, kind 
of that athlete look of,

817
00:33:33,811 --> 00:33:35,313
I'm gonna get this done,

818
00:33:35,313 --> 00:33:38,182
and what Billy Payne 
told me prior to,

819
00:33:38,182 --> 00:33:40,785
one of the reasons I 
didn't unlight my torch

820
00:33:40,785 --> 00:33:43,521
was because there was a 
fear that he would drop it.

821
00:33:43,521 --> 00:33:45,390
And if he had dropped the flame,

822
00:33:45,390 --> 00:33:46,657
it would have unignited,

823
00:33:46,657 --> 00:33:49,260
and it's not what you do 
on the way to the torch,

824
00:33:49,260 --> 00:33:51,362
is, you know, the 
torch goes from Olympia

825
00:33:51,362 --> 00:33:53,364
all the way to the host country.

826
00:33:53,364 --> 00:33:55,900
And I could see in his eyes,

827
00:33:55,900 --> 00:33:57,969
'cause I was so nervous 
he was gonna drop it,

828
00:33:57,969 --> 00:33:59,871
'cause I didn't want to have 
to help him, right? (chuckles)

829
00:33:59,871 --> 00:34:01,339
And I could see it.

830
00:34:01,339 --> 00:34:02,407
It's not gonna happen.

831
00:34:02,407 --> 00:34:03,508
I'm not gonna drop this.

832
00:34:03,508 --> 00:34:04,575
I am gonna do this.

833
00:34:04,575 --> 00:34:05,777
And there was this,

834
00:34:06,677 --> 00:34:08,846
this confidence and this pride

835
00:34:08,846 --> 00:34:11,549
and this, like, determination,

836
00:34:11,549 --> 00:34:12,784
and I knew it, right?

837
00:34:12,784 --> 00:34:15,520
It was just, like, 
you got this, right?

838
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,522
Like, and, you know,

839
00:34:17,522 --> 00:34:20,591
he wasn't speaking at the 
time because of his illness.

840
00:34:20,591 --> 00:34:21,826
And if he could have,

841
00:34:21,826 --> 00:34:22,760
I would never have 
heard him anyway

842
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,629
because that stadium was,

843
00:34:24,629 --> 00:34:26,397
you know, his daughter 
talking about the airports

844
00:34:26,397 --> 00:34:28,566
and the roar of the crowd.

845
00:34:28,566 --> 00:34:30,802
Like, I could still 
feel it in my,

846
00:34:30,802 --> 00:34:32,570
I think anyone who 
was in that stadium

847
00:34:32,570 --> 00:34:34,072
that evening can still feel it.

848
00:34:34,072 --> 00:34:36,441
But I couldn't have heard 
him if he had tried to talk,

849
00:34:36,441 --> 00:34:39,444
but I knew with this, 
when I looked in his eyes,

850
00:34:39,444 --> 00:34:40,845
I knew it was gonna be fine.

851
00:34:43,314 --> 00:34:47,885
- And all of us going along 
with it would be fine.

852
00:34:47,885 --> 00:34:50,655
We have some audience questions,

853
00:34:50,655 --> 00:34:55,393
although I have to sort 
of see where they are.

854
00:34:57,495 --> 00:35:00,565
I'm wondering if we 
can maybe save those

855
00:35:01,766 --> 00:35:04,569
and Ken, get you to tell 
us about this next clip.

856
00:35:04,569 --> 00:35:05,770
- [Ken] Sure.

857
00:35:05,770 --> 00:35:08,106
- To set up, it's Ali 
in Africa in 1964.

858
00:35:08,106 --> 00:35:11,409
It comes before the legendary 
international fights,

859
00:35:11,409 --> 00:35:12,677
the Rumble In the Jungle

860
00:35:12,677 --> 00:35:15,379
and in Zaire, the 
Thrilla in Manila,

861
00:35:16,514 --> 00:35:18,316
and they helped 
mark the Ali legend,

862
00:35:18,316 --> 00:35:21,552
but in what ways 
does this highlight

863
00:35:21,552 --> 00:35:23,788
his time on the world stage?

864
00:35:23,788 --> 00:35:27,792
- This is a really, 
really important moment.

865
00:35:27,792 --> 00:35:29,760
Our first episode takes us up to

866
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:34,632
his winning the heavyweight 
championship by defeating,

867
00:35:34,632 --> 00:35:38,536
and probably, with no one 
confident that he would win,

868
00:35:38,536 --> 00:35:41,272
against Sonny Liston 
in Miami in '64.

869
00:35:41,272 --> 00:35:43,708
And later that year, he,

870
00:35:43,708 --> 00:35:45,643
and it allows him, 
it liberates him,

871
00:35:45,643 --> 00:35:48,679
at least in his mind and 
in the mind of others,

872
00:35:48,679 --> 00:35:52,917
to be able to express this 
developing Muslim faith

873
00:35:52,917 --> 00:35:54,819
and the fact that he has become,

874
00:35:54,819 --> 00:35:56,954
rather quietly and 
surreptitiously,

875
00:35:56,954 --> 00:35:59,457
a member of the Nation of Islam,

876
00:35:59,457 --> 00:36:01,292
and become under the sway of

877
00:36:01,292 --> 00:36:04,662
not only its leader, 
Elijah Muhammad,

878
00:36:04,662 --> 00:36:07,064
but also one of the 
great preachers,

879
00:36:07,064 --> 00:36:10,168
at least for a time, of the 
Nation of Islam, Malcolm X,

880
00:36:10,168 --> 00:36:13,304
and they've developed a 
very intense friendship

881
00:36:13,304 --> 00:36:14,505
between the two.

882
00:36:14,505 --> 00:36:15,907
Kind of mentor, but 
also friendship.

883
00:36:15,907 --> 00:36:18,643
Ali supports Malcolm 
X and his family,

884
00:36:18,643 --> 00:36:21,612
but there's been 
some disagreements,

885
00:36:21,612 --> 00:36:24,248
and Malcolm X has been expelled.

886
00:36:24,248 --> 00:36:26,551
But after he beats Liston,

887
00:36:26,551 --> 00:36:30,288
he goes out into a world tour,

888
00:36:30,288 --> 00:36:31,522
and he goes to Africa,

889
00:36:31,522 --> 00:36:33,824
and you begin to 
see the fact that,

890
00:36:33,824 --> 00:36:36,727
unlike almost all 
other athletes,

891
00:36:36,727 --> 00:36:38,196
they have,

892
00:36:38,196 --> 00:36:42,466
he has felt that the stage 
that he so has wanted

893
00:36:42,466 --> 00:36:46,837
since a little boy banging 
pots and pans in his kitchen

894
00:36:46,837 --> 00:36:49,106
is not limited to Louisville,

895
00:36:49,106 --> 00:36:50,508
Grand Avenue on Louisville.

896
00:36:51,676 --> 00:36:53,778
It's not limited to 
Louisville, Kentucky.

897
00:36:53,778 --> 00:36:55,980
It's not limited to 
the United States.

898
00:36:55,980 --> 00:36:59,050
He's had that experience 
in Rome four years before.

899
00:36:59,050 --> 00:37:01,252
It's the world, is his stage.

900
00:37:01,252 --> 00:37:03,688
And so let's just 
look at this clip

901
00:37:03,688 --> 00:37:06,591
and come back and talk about it.

902
00:37:06,591 --> 00:37:10,494
(slow guitar music) 
(crowd cheers)

903
00:37:10,494 --> 00:37:11,963
- [Narrator] In May,

904
00:37:11,963 --> 00:37:15,466
Ali began a monthlong 
tour of African countries.

905
00:37:15,466 --> 00:37:18,169
In Accra, the capital of Ghana,

906
00:37:18,169 --> 00:37:19,837
thousands gathered 
at the airport

907
00:37:19,837 --> 00:37:23,107
to catch a glimpse 
of the world's new 
heavyweight champion.

908
00:37:23,107 --> 00:37:25,376
(mellow African music)

909
00:37:25,376 --> 00:37:26,811
Outside his hotel,

910
00:37:26,811 --> 00:37:28,779
Ali heard a familiar voice.

911
00:37:28,779 --> 00:37:30,948
"Brother Muhammad," 
called Malcolm X,

912
00:37:30,948 --> 00:37:32,717
who was on his 
own overseas tour.

913
00:37:33,584 --> 00:37:36,087
He greeted Ali enthusiastically.

914
00:37:36,087 --> 00:37:38,222
"I still love you," 
he told the boxer.

915
00:37:39,624 --> 00:37:43,327
"You left the Honorable 
Elijah Muhammad," Ali said.

916
00:37:43,327 --> 00:37:44,996
"That was the 
wrong thing to do."

917
00:37:46,764 --> 00:37:49,033
There was little else to say.

918
00:37:49,033 --> 00:37:50,234
Malcolm walked away.

919
00:37:51,235 --> 00:37:53,037
(upbeat trumpet music)

920
00:37:53,037 --> 00:37:56,540
Ali met with Ghanaian 
President Kwame Nkrumah,

921
00:37:56,540 --> 00:37:58,175
sparred with his brother, Rudy,

922
00:37:58,175 --> 00:37:59,543
now known as Rahman,

923
00:37:59,543 --> 00:38:02,680
before thousands at a 
local sports stadium,

924
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,350
and took every opportunity 
to engage the admirers

925
00:38:06,350 --> 00:38:08,419
who turned up 
everywhere Ali went.

926
00:38:08,419 --> 00:38:09,920
(upbeat trumpet music)

927
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,556
He also spoke out against 
integration in America,

928
00:38:12,556 --> 00:38:15,693
advocating for a separate 
state for Black people,

929
00:38:15,693 --> 00:38:17,928
and dismissed the 
sweeping civil rights bill

930
00:38:17,928 --> 00:38:20,364
under consideration 
in the US Congress

931
00:38:20,364 --> 00:38:21,999
as counterfeit money.

932
00:38:21,999 --> 00:38:23,267
(mellow African music)

933
00:38:23,267 --> 00:38:26,070
Later, he visited 
Nigeria and Egypt,

934
00:38:26,070 --> 00:38:27,805
where he and Herbert Muhammad

935
00:38:27,805 --> 00:38:30,675
met with President 
Gamal Abdel Nasser

936
00:38:30,675 --> 00:38:33,844
and prayed with 1,500 worshipers

937
00:38:33,844 --> 00:38:36,480
at Cairo's Al-Hussain Mosque.

938
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,883
(upbeat trumpet music)

939
00:38:38,883 --> 00:38:41,452
The deep affection 
Africans showered on Ali

940
00:38:41,452 --> 00:38:43,154
during his five-week trip

941
00:38:43,154 --> 00:38:45,323
showed that his 
success in the ring

942
00:38:45,323 --> 00:38:47,425
and outspokenness beyond it

943
00:38:47,425 --> 00:38:50,027
had won him an 
enormous following

944
00:38:50,027 --> 00:38:51,729
well beyond the United States.

945
00:38:53,197 --> 00:38:55,232
- Well, remember that the 
African continent, itself,

946
00:38:55,232 --> 00:38:57,735
was in the throes of 
liberation, you know,

947
00:38:57,735 --> 00:39:02,473
from colonial status 
to its liberation time,

948
00:39:02,473 --> 00:39:05,376
and Muhammad Ali was a 
figure of liberation.

949
00:39:05,376 --> 00:39:06,644
(mellow African music)

950
00:39:06,644 --> 00:39:08,512
- [Narrator] Before 
leaving Africa,

951
00:39:08,512 --> 00:39:12,116
Ali received a cable from 
his former friend and mentor.

952
00:39:12,116 --> 00:39:14,518
"Because a billion of 
our people in Africa,

953
00:39:14,518 --> 00:39:17,588
"Asia, and Arabia 
love you blindly,

954
00:39:17,588 --> 00:39:19,357
"you must now be 
forever aware of

955
00:39:19,357 --> 00:39:22,259
"your tremendous responsibility 
to them," Malcolm X wrote.

956
00:39:23,427 --> 00:39:25,229
"You must never 
do or say anything

957
00:39:25,229 --> 00:39:27,665
"that will permit your 
enemies to distort

958
00:39:27,665 --> 00:39:30,601
"the beautiful image you 
have here among our people."

959
00:39:31,702 --> 00:39:33,270
- I, frankly, 
believe that Cassius

960
00:39:33,270 --> 00:39:36,741
is in a better position than 
anyone else to restore the,

961
00:39:38,709 --> 00:39:40,711
a sense of racial pride

962
00:39:40,711 --> 00:39:42,246
to not only our people 
in this country,

963
00:39:42,246 --> 00:39:43,714
but all over the world,

964
00:39:43,714 --> 00:39:47,818
and he is trying his best 
to live a clean life,

965
00:39:47,818 --> 00:39:49,653
and project a clean image.

966
00:39:49,653 --> 00:39:51,055
But despite this,

967
00:39:51,055 --> 00:39:53,224
you find the press is 
constantly trying to paint him

968
00:39:53,224 --> 00:39:55,159
as something other than 
what he actually is.

969
00:39:55,159 --> 00:39:55,993
He doesn't smoke.

970
00:39:55,993 --> 00:39:57,261
He doesn't drink.

971
00:39:57,261 --> 00:39:58,763
In fact, if he was white,

972
00:39:58,763 --> 00:40:01,932
they would be referring to 
him as the all-American boy.

973
00:40:01,932 --> 00:40:02,767
- Wow.

974
00:40:06,370 --> 00:40:08,239
So powerful.

975
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:09,440
So powerful.

976
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,008
I could just keep 
watching this forever.

977
00:40:11,008 --> 00:40:12,543
In fact, Ken, I did.

978
00:40:12,543 --> 00:40:15,646
I went through the entire 
documentary series twice.

979
00:40:15,646 --> 00:40:17,114
- [Ken] Oh.

980
00:40:17,114 --> 00:40:18,749
- So many parables.

981
00:40:18,749 --> 00:40:22,720
- You see the great 
discipline there in Malcolm X.

982
00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:23,988
Later on in his life,

983
00:40:23,988 --> 00:40:26,257
just after the first 
scene that we showed

984
00:40:26,257 --> 00:40:27,892
of the lighting of the torch,

985
00:40:27,892 --> 00:40:30,761
he is trying to take 
stock of his life

986
00:40:30,761 --> 00:40:33,798
and trying to understand 
where he's gone wrong.

987
00:40:33,798 --> 00:40:36,700
He's said, "I fit my 
religion to fit my life,"

988
00:40:36,700 --> 00:40:39,570
and was extraordinarily 
remorseful

989
00:40:39,570 --> 00:40:43,040
for the unfaithfulness 
that he had exhibited

990
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,477
towards the, at least 
three of his wives.

991
00:40:46,477 --> 00:40:50,581
And he also regretted some 
of the things he'd said, too,

992
00:40:51,615 --> 00:40:52,883
about Joe Frazier,

993
00:40:52,883 --> 00:40:55,586
and he also felt that he 
had abandoned Malcolm.

994
00:40:55,586 --> 00:40:57,721
And I think Malcolm's 
great gift here

995
00:40:57,721 --> 00:41:00,391
is that he is so 
open and forgiving.

996
00:41:00,391 --> 00:41:03,461
He, Malcolm, himself, has 
had this transformation

997
00:41:03,461 --> 00:41:06,530
away from a kind of didactic

998
00:41:07,898 --> 00:41:11,402
and rigid form that 
Elijah Muhammad practiced

999
00:41:11,402 --> 00:41:14,205
to something that was much 
more embracing and ecumenical,

1000
00:41:14,205 --> 00:41:18,776
and it's a place that Muhammad 
Ali is going to grow into,

1001
00:41:18,776 --> 00:41:21,145
and it's only going to increase

1002
00:41:21,145 --> 00:41:24,348
his ability to have 
this world stature.

1003
00:41:24,348 --> 00:41:26,383
Because he's been so brash,

1004
00:41:26,383 --> 00:41:28,152
because he's said, 
"I am the greatest,"

1005
00:41:28,152 --> 00:41:29,386
because he's said things

1006
00:41:29,386 --> 00:41:32,523
that Black men are 
not supposed to say,

1007
00:41:32,523 --> 00:41:35,726
he is known throughout 
the world already.

1008
00:41:35,726 --> 00:41:36,927
He's, one, the champion.

1009
00:41:36,927 --> 00:41:38,162
That makes him known,

1010
00:41:38,162 --> 00:41:40,764
but he's beloved 
because of the way

1011
00:41:40,764 --> 00:41:43,234
he has championed everyone else

1012
00:41:43,234 --> 00:41:45,903
who's ever felt the 
boot of the man.

1013
00:41:45,903 --> 00:41:48,506
And it is an amazing 
thing that happens

1014
00:41:48,506 --> 00:41:51,308
in this very first 
international trip,

1015
00:41:51,308 --> 00:41:52,576
that you can't do it,

1016
00:41:52,576 --> 00:41:56,347
and he is going to be 
pulled now in death

1017
00:41:56,347 --> 00:42:00,484
towards what Malcolm X had 
found at the end of his life.

1018
00:42:00,484 --> 00:42:02,987
And, in fact, when 
Elijah Mohammad dies,

1019
00:42:02,987 --> 00:42:07,324
his son Wallace begins to 
embrace a much more open

1020
00:42:07,324 --> 00:42:11,161
and forgiving and 
tolerant version of Islam,

1021
00:42:11,161 --> 00:42:12,863
more mainstream Islam,

1022
00:42:12,863 --> 00:42:15,165
than the kind of rigid thing 
of the Nation of Islam,

1023
00:42:15,165 --> 00:42:18,536
and that's the Muhammad 
Ali at the end of his life.

1024
00:42:18,536 --> 00:42:20,170
So what you're seeing 
at the beginning,

1025
00:42:20,170 --> 00:42:22,473
and in that 
extraordinary forbearance

1026
00:42:22,473 --> 00:42:25,776
on the part of the 
rejected Malcolm X,

1027
00:42:25,776 --> 00:42:27,811
who does not have long to live,

1028
00:42:29,179 --> 00:42:31,081
and is gonna be murdered 
by the Nation of Islam,

1029
00:42:31,081 --> 00:42:32,149
let me just say that,

1030
00:42:34,752 --> 00:42:37,254
is the arc of the life 
that's going to take him

1031
00:42:37,254 --> 00:42:41,926
to the kind of sainthood 
that we celebrate tonight.

1032
00:42:41,926 --> 00:42:42,927
You know?

1033
00:42:42,927 --> 00:42:43,794
His message,

1034
00:42:45,262 --> 00:42:48,432
it's a four-letter word that 
the FCC lets us speak about,

1035
00:42:48,432 --> 00:42:50,801
but we all have a hard 
time talking about,

1036
00:42:50,801 --> 00:42:51,902
which is love,

1037
00:42:51,902 --> 00:42:53,971
and that's Muhammad Ali.

1038
00:42:53,971 --> 00:42:58,442
- It's the arc and 
it's the evolution,

1039
00:42:58,442 --> 00:43:00,344
and Todd, in that clip, right,

1040
00:43:00,344 --> 00:43:04,081
we're seeing the antecedents,

1041
00:43:04,081 --> 00:43:05,816
the beginning, you know,

1042
00:43:05,816 --> 00:43:10,154
him being beloved 
on the world stage,

1043
00:43:10,154 --> 00:43:11,555
as Ken was just talking about,

1044
00:43:11,555 --> 00:43:14,425
and as we're, as I 
said, starting to see,

1045
00:43:14,425 --> 00:43:17,428
but how does he go on to become

1046
00:43:17,428 --> 00:43:21,031
such a liberation 
figure in Africa,

1047
00:43:21,031 --> 00:43:24,902
so much so that during a time

1048
00:43:24,902 --> 00:43:28,138
rife with proxy wars, right,

1049
00:43:28,138 --> 00:43:31,342
that Ali becomes his own,

1050
00:43:31,342 --> 00:43:34,011
his fights become their own

1051
00:43:34,011 --> 00:43:36,714
kind of proxy war 
for liberation,

1052
00:43:36,714 --> 00:43:39,416
for race and religious 
pride and freedom.

1053
00:43:39,416 --> 00:43:41,652
And when you're watching it now,

1054
00:43:41,652 --> 00:43:44,121
even for control of 
the Black body, right,

1055
00:43:44,121 --> 00:43:47,157
what Black people can 
do and say and think,

1056
00:43:48,792 --> 00:43:50,761
what is he standing in for

1057
00:43:50,761 --> 00:43:53,163
at these various 
inflection points

1058
00:43:53,163 --> 00:43:57,201
that so enrage 
and inspire people

1059
00:43:57,201 --> 00:43:59,470
so much that they're 
pouring so much into him?

1060
00:44:00,871 --> 00:44:03,240
- I think (clears throat) 
several of the things

1061
00:44:03,240 --> 00:44:07,811
that Ken mentioned are, 
you know, relevant here,

1062
00:44:07,811 --> 00:44:12,816
in terms of making 
that connection

1063
00:44:14,251 --> 00:44:17,054
from, you know, 
national to global.

1064
00:44:18,422 --> 00:44:20,724
And I think, you know, to begin,

1065
00:44:21,625 --> 00:44:23,727
the importance of Malcolm X,

1066
00:44:23,727 --> 00:44:28,032
the connection between Malcolm 
and Cassius Clay at the time,

1067
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,937
I am reminded of a famous 
speech Malcolm gave

1068
00:44:33,937 --> 00:44:38,075
(clears throat) in my 
hometown of Detroit in 1963

1069
00:44:38,075 --> 00:44:40,611
called the "Message 
to the Grass Roots,"

1070
00:44:40,611 --> 00:44:42,413
and in the "Message 
to the Grass Roots,"

1071
00:44:42,413 --> 00:44:46,183
Malcolm talks 
about a conference.

1072
00:44:47,584 --> 00:44:52,056
It took place in Bandung, 
Indonesia, back in the 1950s,

1073
00:44:53,457 --> 00:44:57,161
that brought together African 
nations and Asian nations

1074
00:44:58,562 --> 00:45:00,731
and South Asian nations 
and Latin American nations.

1075
00:45:00,731 --> 00:45:03,500
What we might now refer 
to as people of color,

1076
00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:06,904
but people of color 
from all over the world.

1077
00:45:06,904 --> 00:45:10,007
And in speaking of this,

1078
00:45:10,007 --> 00:45:11,642
what Malcolm was talking about

1079
00:45:11,642 --> 00:45:16,280
was the importance of 
Black people in America

1080
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,617
seeing themself 
beyond just America.

1081
00:45:20,617 --> 00:45:22,619
And, of course, if 
you are familiar with

1082
00:45:22,619 --> 00:45:24,888
"The Autobiography 
of Malcolm X,"

1083
00:45:24,888 --> 00:45:26,356
Malcolm's history,

1084
00:45:26,356 --> 00:45:28,992
he, you know, talks about 
the experience he has

1085
00:45:28,992 --> 00:45:32,262
when he goes to travel 
through the Middle East

1086
00:45:32,262 --> 00:45:34,064
and various other places,

1087
00:45:34,064 --> 00:45:37,234
Africa, as, you know, 
indicated in this clip,

1088
00:45:37,234 --> 00:45:42,239
when he kinda 
randomly runs into Ali

1089
00:45:43,373 --> 00:45:44,308
at this moment when 
there's conflict

1090
00:45:44,308 --> 00:45:45,943
with the Nation of Islam.

1091
00:45:45,943 --> 00:45:47,845
But I think what's important,

1092
00:45:47,845 --> 00:45:49,813
in addition to talking about,

1093
00:45:49,813 --> 00:45:52,049
you know, African nations',

1094
00:45:53,751 --> 00:45:55,853
you know, liberation,

1095
00:45:55,853 --> 00:45:58,055
anti-colonialism,

1096
00:45:58,055 --> 00:46:00,057
you know, the 
"Third World" phrase

1097
00:46:00,057 --> 00:46:02,359
we don't use so much anymore,

1098
00:46:03,727 --> 00:46:06,663
you end up in, you know, 
Vietnam, and the Vietnam War,

1099
00:46:06,663 --> 00:46:09,900
which, of course, Ali is very 
central in being, early on,

1100
00:46:09,900 --> 00:46:12,402
and saying, "I'm not 
gonna participate."

1101
00:46:12,402 --> 00:46:14,772
But also, when you 
get into the 1970s

1102
00:46:14,772 --> 00:46:17,775
and you're staging 
fights in Zaire,

1103
00:46:17,775 --> 00:46:20,077
the former Belgian Congo,

1104
00:46:20,077 --> 00:46:23,247
or you're staging fights 
in, you know, Manila,

1105
00:46:23,247 --> 00:46:24,348
the Thrilla in Manila,

1106
00:46:25,516 --> 00:46:28,218
I mean, to me, that's 
what makes Ali,

1107
00:46:28,218 --> 00:46:29,920
one of the things, 
there's so many,

1108
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:31,922
that makes him so important is,

1109
00:46:31,922 --> 00:46:33,390
he was always global.

1110
00:46:33,390 --> 00:46:37,294
He always represented 
the disenfranchised,

1111
00:46:37,294 --> 00:46:39,129
the marginalized,

1112
00:46:39,129 --> 00:46:40,497
the colonized,

1113
00:46:40,497 --> 00:46:42,833
the former slaves,

1114
00:46:42,833 --> 00:46:44,568
the little man,

1115
00:46:44,568 --> 00:46:45,736
the people.

1116
00:46:45,736 --> 00:46:47,571
He was the people's 
champ, right?

1117
00:46:48,972 --> 00:46:50,641
The people's choice.

1118
00:46:51,809 --> 00:46:54,378
This was something he embodied.

1119
00:46:54,378 --> 00:46:57,147
It was not just 
something he was called.

1120
00:46:57,147 --> 00:47:00,050
You know, all sorts 
of personal anecdotes

1121
00:47:00,050 --> 00:47:02,986
about individual people

1122
00:47:02,986 --> 00:47:06,056
who ran into Ali on the street.

1123
00:47:07,291 --> 00:47:08,225
You know, for a time,

1124
00:47:08,225 --> 00:47:09,893
he lived here in Los Angeles,

1125
00:47:11,028 --> 00:47:13,230
in the early 1980s,

1126
00:47:13,230 --> 00:47:15,098
and I've talked 
to numerous people

1127
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:21,371
who ran into him, you know, 
buying ice cream for his kids.

1128
00:47:21,371 --> 00:47:24,474
And, you know, for 
somebody like Ali,

1129
00:47:24,474 --> 00:47:28,412
there's a person coming up 
to him every five seconds

1130
00:47:28,412 --> 00:47:31,281
wanting an autograph, 
wanting a photo.

1131
00:47:31,281 --> 00:47:33,450
You know, this is the 
life of a celebrity,

1132
00:47:33,450 --> 00:47:34,885
and he's the biggest 
of celebrities,

1133
00:47:34,885 --> 00:47:36,320
and people are 
telling stories about,

1134
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:37,921
it made no difference

1135
00:47:37,921 --> 00:47:40,224
how many people were 
waiting to talk to him,

1136
00:47:40,224 --> 00:47:41,658
how many pictures he'd taken.

1137
00:47:41,658 --> 00:47:43,427
It didn't matter.

1138
00:47:43,427 --> 00:47:45,462
He loved being around people,

1139
00:47:45,462 --> 00:47:49,566
and it's that energy that 
is pouring out of him

1140
00:47:49,566 --> 00:47:52,002
that makes him, you know,

1141
00:47:52,002 --> 00:47:56,240
someone that people across 
the globe can embrace.

1142
00:47:56,240 --> 00:47:59,610
And so, I think there's 
this global dimension to him

1143
00:47:59,610 --> 00:48:01,545
that started,

1144
00:48:01,545 --> 00:48:06,550
perhaps, back in the 
Olympics in 1960.

1145
00:48:07,651 --> 00:48:09,086
But, you know, 
it's very important

1146
00:48:09,086 --> 00:48:13,757
that he see himself 
as a Black man,

1147
00:48:13,757 --> 00:48:16,593
but not simply an 
American Black man,

1148
00:48:16,593 --> 00:48:19,663
but a Black man on 
the global stage.

1149
00:48:19,663 --> 00:48:23,367
And I think in the same 
way that, you know,

1150
00:48:23,367 --> 00:48:25,836
say, jazz musicians before him

1151
00:48:25,836 --> 00:48:28,472
had traveled to places 
throughout the globe

1152
00:48:28,472 --> 00:48:32,309
and represented Black 
people from America,

1153
00:48:32,309 --> 00:48:35,112
he kinda embodies that, as well.

1154
00:48:35,112 --> 00:48:36,747
But when you look at his career,

1155
00:48:36,747 --> 00:48:39,283
when you look at his, 
you know, personality,

1156
00:48:39,283 --> 00:48:42,719
when you look at the 
circumstances around it,

1157
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,055
I mean, you know, going to Zaire

1158
00:48:45,055 --> 00:48:48,992
and fighting George 
Foreman in 1974,

1159
00:48:48,992 --> 00:48:53,964
fighting Foreman and you 
have Mobutu Sese Seko,

1160
00:48:53,964 --> 00:48:56,500
Ken deals with all this 
in the documentary,

1161
00:48:56,500 --> 00:48:58,702
the history of what is Zaire

1162
00:48:58,702 --> 00:49:00,871
but had previously 
been the Congo,

1163
00:49:00,871 --> 00:49:03,473
the murdering of 
Patrice Lumumba,

1164
00:49:03,473 --> 00:49:05,909
there's a whole series 
of historical events,

1165
00:49:05,909 --> 00:49:09,646
and you can put Muhammad Ali 
right in the center of them.

1166
00:49:09,646 --> 00:49:12,316
Ferdinand Marcos 
in the Philippines,

1167
00:49:12,316 --> 00:49:14,551
and America's relationship 
to the Philippines,

1168
00:49:14,551 --> 00:49:16,353
the Thrilla in Manila.

1169
00:49:17,254 --> 00:49:18,655
He was global.

1170
00:49:18,655 --> 00:49:19,856
He was iconic.

1171
00:49:19,856 --> 00:49:23,593
He was a representative 
of the Third World.

1172
00:49:23,593 --> 00:49:25,996
He was a representative 
of people of color.

1173
00:49:26,930 --> 00:49:28,598
He was an American.

1174
00:49:28,598 --> 00:49:30,367
He was all these things at once,

1175
00:49:30,367 --> 00:49:33,670
and there's really not a 
lot of people in history

1176
00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:34,905
you can say that about,

1177
00:49:34,905 --> 00:49:36,807
and certainly not 
a lot of boxers,

1178
00:49:36,807 --> 00:49:39,042
or certainly not 
a lot of athletes.

1179
00:49:39,042 --> 00:49:41,511
Just to kinda tie this up,

1180
00:49:41,511 --> 00:49:46,049
if you go back to 
2016 at his funeral,

1181
00:49:46,049 --> 00:49:49,519
and I covered the 
funeral for CBS that day,

1182
00:49:49,519 --> 00:49:51,221
so I'm on the air live all day

1183
00:49:51,221 --> 00:49:53,190
and I'm talking 
to George Foreman,

1184
00:49:53,190 --> 00:49:56,693
and I'm talking to a series 
of people connected to him,

1185
00:49:56,693 --> 00:49:57,694
and I just kept saying,

1186
00:49:57,694 --> 00:49:59,730
"When I was growing up,

1187
00:49:59,730 --> 00:50:01,598
"situations like this

1188
00:50:01,598 --> 00:50:05,669
"were reserved for 
presidents or heads of state.

1189
00:50:05,669 --> 00:50:08,672
"Boxers, athletes, didn't get

1190
00:50:08,672 --> 00:50:11,942
"these sorts of 
public send-offs."

1191
00:50:11,942 --> 00:50:13,043
He did.

1192
00:50:13,043 --> 00:50:14,945
And there's a reason he did.

1193
00:50:14,945 --> 00:50:18,849
A small part of it had to do 
with his abilities as a boxer.

1194
00:50:18,849 --> 00:50:20,317
- [Ken] Right.

1195
00:50:20,317 --> 00:50:24,321
- Much of it had to do with his 
identity as a global citizen

1196
00:50:26,456 --> 00:50:30,360
who connected all of these 
forces at the same time.

1197
00:50:32,262 --> 00:50:34,264
- So, Janet, it's 
interesting because

1198
00:50:34,264 --> 00:50:36,533
Ali was certainly 
all those things

1199
00:50:36,533 --> 00:50:39,202
Todd just said he was,

1200
00:50:39,202 --> 00:50:42,239
but he was also a winner, right?

1201
00:50:43,673 --> 00:50:45,275
He was gold medalist,

1202
00:50:45,275 --> 00:50:47,577
three-time heavyweight champion.

1203
00:50:47,577 --> 00:50:49,479
You, yourself, won 
three gold medals,

1204
00:50:49,479 --> 00:50:50,981
broke seven world records

1205
00:50:50,981 --> 00:50:53,050
in three events during 
your swimming career.

1206
00:50:53,050 --> 00:50:57,187
What is it about winning 
that gives people

1207
00:50:58,922 --> 00:51:02,626
this extra ability 
to reach people?

1208
00:51:02,626 --> 00:51:06,596
How does it change the 
proportions on the world stage,

1209
00:51:06,596 --> 00:51:11,368
and engender a kind 
of responsibility

1210
00:51:11,368 --> 00:51:13,737
that you've talked about 
feeling towards others,

1211
00:51:13,737 --> 00:51:15,639
and that Ali certainly had?

1212
00:51:17,007 --> 00:51:19,276
- Well, it's tough to follow 
Dr. Boyd because that,

1213
00:51:19,276 --> 00:51:22,012
I think that really summed 
it up for me, personally.

1214
00:51:22,979 --> 00:51:24,915
You know, like I said,

1215
00:51:24,915 --> 00:51:27,350
when he was holding that torch,

1216
00:51:27,350 --> 00:51:29,052
it was like he wanted the world,

1217
00:51:29,052 --> 00:51:31,855
it was not his, it was 
for everyone, right?

1218
00:51:31,855 --> 00:51:34,257
And so I, it just, it 
summed it up so beautifully.

1219
00:51:34,257 --> 00:51:35,725
So, thank you, Doctor.

1220
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,197
You know, I think, different 
than winning being important,

1221
00:51:40,197 --> 00:51:43,967
I think, of course, Ali 
liked to win. (chuckles)

1222
00:51:43,967 --> 00:51:45,102
We all like to win.

1223
00:51:45,102 --> 00:51:46,937
We all want to win.

1224
00:51:48,138 --> 00:51:50,373
But, to me, when 
I speak about Ali,

1225
00:51:50,373 --> 00:51:52,109
I think Ali was a champion,

1226
00:51:52,109 --> 00:51:53,376
and I think there's a difference

1227
00:51:53,376 --> 00:51:55,011
between winning and 
being a champion.

1228
00:51:55,011 --> 00:51:56,813
And so, I think a 
champion is someone

1229
00:51:56,813 --> 00:51:59,783
who understands 
they're not gonna win.

1230
00:51:59,783 --> 00:52:02,486
And he didn't win everything,

1231
00:52:02,486 --> 00:52:04,020
and that didn't matter to him

1232
00:52:04,020 --> 00:52:05,822
because yes, it 
was great to win,

1233
00:52:05,822 --> 00:52:07,324
and it was great to 
puff out your chest

1234
00:52:07,324 --> 00:52:09,726
and receive that medal 
or that heavyweight belt,

1235
00:52:09,726 --> 00:52:12,395
but it was bigger 
than winning for him,

1236
00:52:12,395 --> 00:52:15,532
and I think that's 
what athletes learn,

1237
00:52:15,532 --> 00:52:18,301
and are still learning 
from his story,

1238
00:52:19,536 --> 00:52:23,340
is that winning was 
a catalyst for him

1239
00:52:23,340 --> 00:52:24,741
to be on the world stage

1240
00:52:24,741 --> 00:52:26,810
and, but it was his message,

1241
00:52:26,810 --> 00:52:28,211
it was his journey,

1242
00:52:28,211 --> 00:52:29,746
it was his platform,

1243
00:52:29,746 --> 00:52:31,882
and that evening in Atlanta,

1244
00:52:31,882 --> 00:52:33,950
I think when you look 
at all of the athletes

1245
00:52:33,950 --> 00:52:35,552
that were competing 
from the world

1246
00:52:35,552 --> 00:52:37,254
that Dr. Boyd is 
speaking about, right,

1247
00:52:37,254 --> 00:52:38,588
there, the Olympics,

1248
00:52:38,588 --> 00:52:39,656
there's no more 
international sporting event

1249
00:52:39,656 --> 00:52:41,391
than the Olympic Games, right?

1250
00:52:41,391 --> 00:52:43,760
So you have all these people 
from all over the world.

1251
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:45,262
You know, 10% of the athletes

1252
00:52:45,262 --> 00:52:47,330
that participate in the 
Olympic Games win a medal.

1253
00:52:47,330 --> 00:52:48,565
10%.

1254
00:52:48,565 --> 00:52:50,500
He wasn't speaking to 
that 10% that night.

1255
00:52:50,500 --> 00:52:53,170
He was speaking to the 90% that 
don't go home with a medal,

1256
00:52:53,170 --> 00:52:55,572
and he was saying to 
them, "It's okay."

1257
00:52:55,572 --> 00:52:56,406
Right?

1258
00:52:56,406 --> 00:52:57,240
Show up,

1259
00:52:57,240 --> 00:52:58,108
be present,

1260
00:52:58,108 --> 00:52:59,242
find your voice,

1261
00:52:59,242 --> 00:53:00,310
tell your story,

1262
00:53:00,310 --> 00:53:01,578
make a difference, right?

1263
00:53:01,578 --> 00:53:04,247
And so the winning, to me,

1264
00:53:05,081 --> 00:53:06,383
he was a champion.

1265
00:53:06,383 --> 00:53:07,884
Yeah, he won.

1266
00:53:07,884 --> 00:53:10,220
He has a lot of medals at 
home and a lot of belts,

1267
00:53:10,220 --> 00:53:13,523
but it was transcending winning

1268
00:53:13,523 --> 00:53:17,327
that really, I think, 
for me, personally,

1269
00:53:17,327 --> 00:53:19,930
helped me realize that 
it's great to win,

1270
00:53:19,930 --> 00:53:21,198
but there's more to it,

1271
00:53:21,198 --> 00:53:25,802
and that's my vision of 
Ali with his athleticism

1272
00:53:25,802 --> 00:53:28,305
and his journey as an athlete.

1273
00:53:28,305 --> 00:53:29,506
And as Dr. Boyd said,

1274
00:53:29,506 --> 00:53:32,409
he's, I mean, clearly, 
so, so much more.

1275
00:53:33,543 --> 00:53:36,046
- And poured so 
much more into that.

1276
00:53:36,046 --> 00:53:39,316
We're gonna to get to 
the audience questions,

1277
00:53:39,316 --> 00:53:41,718
because, obviously, 
they're very curious.

1278
00:53:41,718 --> 00:53:45,922
So Lloyd from the 
audience asks Ken,

1279
00:53:45,922 --> 00:53:49,826
"Ken, did you ever feel 
nervous doing this film?

1280
00:53:49,826 --> 00:53:53,430
"He's the most beloved 
person on the planet?

1281
00:53:53,430 --> 00:53:54,864
"How did you handle that

1282
00:53:54,864 --> 00:53:59,002
"without giving into the 
reverence that Ali inspires?"

1283
00:53:59,002 --> 00:54:00,470
And I'll add to that,

1284
00:54:00,470 --> 00:54:04,074
and get your arm around just 
the bigness of his life?

1285
00:54:05,208 --> 00:54:07,711
- Yeah, I think 
that we've tried to

1286
00:54:07,711 --> 00:54:11,181
spend most of, you 
know, our lives,

1287
00:54:11,181 --> 00:54:14,484
by the whole team sort of 
biting off more than we can chew

1288
00:54:14,484 --> 00:54:16,286
and learning how to chew it.

1289
00:54:16,286 --> 00:54:17,654
The biggest thing is fear,

1290
00:54:17,654 --> 00:54:19,356
because when you're taking on,

1291
00:54:19,356 --> 00:54:21,024
say, all of the Civil War,

1292
00:54:21,024 --> 00:54:22,292
or all of baseball,

1293
00:54:22,292 --> 00:54:24,494
or someone like Muhammad Ali,

1294
00:54:24,494 --> 00:54:26,630
and I have to agree with Todd

1295
00:54:26,630 --> 00:54:30,400
that the jazz analogy 
is really great,

1296
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:33,003
'cause there's really only 
one other person on the planet

1297
00:54:33,003 --> 00:54:34,671
that's at all like Muhammad Ali,

1298
00:54:34,671 --> 00:54:36,439
and that's Louis Armstrong.

1299
00:54:36,439 --> 00:54:39,676
And he just, he 
revolutionized music

1300
00:54:39,676 --> 00:54:44,381
the way Ali revolutionized 
his particular profession,

1301
00:54:44,381 --> 00:54:46,283
and he had a capacious heart,

1302
00:54:46,283 --> 00:54:49,719
and was, in turn, 
loved across the globe

1303
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:54,591
in a way that was part of that 
subtle message of liberation

1304
00:54:54,591 --> 00:54:57,527
that comes along with 
the thrill of celebrity

1305
00:54:57,527 --> 00:54:59,729
and things like that.

1306
00:54:59,729 --> 00:55:02,966
You know, we put our pants 
on one leg at a time.

1307
00:55:02,966 --> 00:55:04,868
We spend years doing it.

1308
00:55:04,868 --> 00:55:06,569
We collect as many photographs

1309
00:55:06,569 --> 00:55:08,004
and as much footage as we can.

1310
00:55:08,004 --> 00:55:10,440
We talk to as many 
people who are smart,

1311
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:12,275
and one of them is here.

1312
00:55:13,109 --> 00:55:14,744
We talk to family,

1313
00:55:14,744 --> 00:55:16,646
two of his four wives,

1314
00:55:16,646 --> 00:55:18,114
two of his children,

1315
00:55:18,114 --> 00:55:20,216
a lot of journalists,

1316
00:55:20,216 --> 00:55:21,618
like Dave Kindred, who you saw,

1317
00:55:21,618 --> 00:55:23,987
who covered him from the 
beginning to the end.

1318
00:55:23,987 --> 00:55:25,455
Also, Robert Lipsyte.

1319
00:55:25,455 --> 00:55:27,791
People who've written about 
him, like David Remnick,

1320
00:55:27,791 --> 00:55:29,125
the poet Wole Soyinka,

1321
00:55:29,125 --> 00:55:32,329
who's written one of 
the most beautiful poems

1322
00:55:32,329 --> 00:55:35,799
that frames our last 
episode about Ali,

1323
00:55:35,799 --> 00:55:38,868
having seen him in a 
kind of desultory moment

1324
00:55:38,868 --> 00:55:42,639
at a kind of autograph thing 
that was not the Olympics.

1325
00:55:42,639 --> 00:55:44,074
It was not the kind of moment

1326
00:55:44,074 --> 00:55:46,643
that Janet had that 
privilege of being there,

1327
00:55:46,643 --> 00:55:48,912
where all the love of 
the world was pouring in

1328
00:55:48,912 --> 00:55:51,381
and all of his love 
was pouring out.

1329
00:55:51,381 --> 00:55:52,749
You know, it was 
just some thing,

1330
00:55:52,749 --> 00:55:56,553
and he wrote this extraordinary 
poem that exemplifies

1331
00:55:56,553 --> 00:55:59,622
all of the reasons why 
we're talking to him.

1332
00:55:59,622 --> 00:56:03,793
I mean, a lot of 
our sports heroes

1333
00:56:03,793 --> 00:56:05,829
aren't really heroes, 
in that regard.

1334
00:56:05,829 --> 00:56:07,364
They're really good 
at what they do,

1335
00:56:07,364 --> 00:56:09,099
winning, and even 
being champions,

1336
00:56:09,099 --> 00:56:11,468
and I'm glad that Janet 
made that distinction,

1337
00:56:11,468 --> 00:56:13,103
but they're not 
risking everything.

1338
00:56:13,103 --> 00:56:15,438
He risked everything.

1339
00:56:15,438 --> 00:56:17,574
At the height of his 
professional career, he said,

1340
00:56:17,574 --> 00:56:18,975
"No, I'm just not gonna do it."

1341
00:56:18,975 --> 00:56:21,211
And he knew he'd 
get a cushy USO job,

1342
00:56:21,211 --> 00:56:24,214
he'd go and do a few 
exhibition sparring matches,

1343
00:56:24,214 --> 00:56:26,783
and yet, he said, "No, 
I'm not gonna do that."

1344
00:56:26,783 --> 00:56:28,051
Three and a half years later,

1345
00:56:28,051 --> 00:56:29,719
he can come back,

1346
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:34,023
and he can't beat the champion 
Joe Frazier the first time,

1347
00:56:34,023 --> 00:56:34,991
the first time,

1348
00:56:34,991 --> 00:56:36,226
but he keeps at it.

1349
00:56:36,226 --> 00:56:40,497
So it's just going 
in and understanding

1350
00:56:40,497 --> 00:56:43,900
that we're not looking for 
hagiography hero worship.

1351
00:56:43,900 --> 00:56:47,537
We're not looking for some 
kind of simplistic revisionism.

1352
00:56:47,537 --> 00:56:50,373
We're looking to see a 
complicated human being,

1353
00:56:50,373 --> 00:56:54,210
and saying the word "complicated 
human being" is redundant.

1354
00:56:54,210 --> 00:56:56,146
So we're looking 
for that undertow,

1355
00:56:56,146 --> 00:56:58,381
the contradictions 
that are inherent

1356
00:56:58,381 --> 00:57:00,016
in each and every one of us.

1357
00:57:00,016 --> 00:57:02,786
And the reason why we 
have mythic figures,

1358
00:57:02,786 --> 00:57:03,987
iconic heroes,

1359
00:57:03,987 --> 00:57:06,856
the hero's journey that 
Muhammad Ali takes,

1360
00:57:06,856 --> 00:57:09,292
is because all of 
their tensions,

1361
00:57:09,292 --> 00:57:11,094
all of the contradictions 
within them,

1362
00:57:11,094 --> 00:57:14,631
are writ so large 
that they might be,

1363
00:57:15,498 --> 00:57:17,600
just, perhaps, if we're aware,

1364
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,537
a little bit helpful 
for the rest of us,

1365
00:57:20,537 --> 00:57:22,639
in which we play out 
those contradictions

1366
00:57:22,639 --> 00:57:25,442
in a much more cramped 
and narrow space.

1367
00:57:25,442 --> 00:57:28,244
And to me, he's about 
how you wake up.

1368
00:57:28,244 --> 00:57:30,580
You know, Janet, you spoke 
so, that was so beautiful

1369
00:57:30,580 --> 00:57:33,583
about being there 
and understanding 
what he understood,

1370
00:57:33,583 --> 00:57:34,517
and that silent thing.

1371
00:57:34,517 --> 00:57:36,319
I met him, Todd, in LA once.

1372
00:57:36,319 --> 00:57:38,555
Never said a word to 
him, in a coffee shop.

1373
00:57:38,555 --> 00:57:40,423
You know, I'd gone 
in to get some tea,

1374
00:57:40,423 --> 00:57:41,658
turned around,

1375
00:57:41,658 --> 00:57:43,092
and he was the only 
person in a diner or,

1376
00:57:43,092 --> 00:57:44,928
you know, coffee 
shop or whatever,

1377
00:57:44,928 --> 00:57:47,831
and we just had this 
wordless conversation.

1378
00:57:47,831 --> 00:57:51,868
It was just extraordinary 
to be in his presence.

1379
00:57:51,868 --> 00:57:53,903
It was like, as Remnick said,

1380
00:57:53,903 --> 00:57:55,138
it was like the Buddha.

1381
00:57:55,138 --> 00:57:57,740
You know, and I didn't 
need anything to do

1382
00:57:57,740 --> 00:58:01,144
but just be as present 
as I could possibly do.

1383
00:58:01,144 --> 00:58:03,446
And that, no pun intended,

1384
00:58:03,446 --> 00:58:06,049
is the greatest 
present he gave us.

1385
00:58:06,049 --> 00:58:08,651
Boxing, as Rasheda, 
his daughter, says,

1386
00:58:08,651 --> 00:58:10,620
this much, right?

1387
00:58:10,620 --> 00:58:13,690
The rest is this 
extraordinary heart

1388
00:58:13,690 --> 00:58:18,695
that just continued to 
grow and grow and grow.

1389
00:58:20,029 --> 00:58:21,264
- And Todd, a final 
question from the audience,

1390
00:58:21,264 --> 00:58:23,700
and I'm gonna take a 
moderator's privilege

1391
00:58:23,700 --> 00:58:25,368
to kind of add onto it,

1392
00:58:25,368 --> 00:58:29,305
because Ken just talked 
about contradictions.

1393
00:58:29,305 --> 00:58:32,175
I want to talk about 
contradictions and evolutions.

1394
00:58:32,175 --> 00:58:33,676
First of all,

1395
00:58:33,676 --> 00:58:37,447
as this liberation figure and 
being celebrated in Africa,

1396
00:58:37,447 --> 00:58:41,117
I was struck by how 
a lot of the people,

1397
00:58:41,117 --> 00:58:43,219
the multitudes coming 
out to see him,

1398
00:58:43,219 --> 00:58:48,124
were phenotypically closer 
to a Joe Frazier, right?

1399
00:58:48,124 --> 00:58:52,862
And so, we have to 
hold that intention,

1400
00:58:52,862 --> 00:58:56,132
in terms of this 
liberation figure

1401
00:58:56,132 --> 00:59:00,403
also espousing and talking 
in these very ugly ways,

1402
00:59:00,403 --> 00:59:03,973
and Todd Stevens asks you,

1403
00:59:03,973 --> 00:59:05,608
"Tell us about the 
cultural impact

1404
00:59:05,608 --> 00:59:08,578
"of Ali beating 
Superman to a pulp

1405
00:59:08,578 --> 00:59:10,480
"in the 40-year-old 
DC Comic book,

1406
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:13,316
"'Superman vs. Muhammad Ali,' 
that's a collector's item,"

1407
00:59:13,316 --> 00:59:16,219
and that certainly represents 
an evolution, right?

1408
00:59:16,219 --> 00:59:18,087
I mean, a collector's item,

1409
00:59:18,087 --> 00:59:21,524
him beating, you know, 
American Superman.

1410
00:59:21,524 --> 00:59:25,094
So, Todd, explain to me 
both of those things,

1411
00:59:25,094 --> 00:59:27,797
these notions of 
contradictions, evolutions,

1412
00:59:27,797 --> 00:59:30,400
when it comes to Muhammad Ali.

1413
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:32,569
- Well, I think, you know,

1414
00:59:35,171 --> 00:59:37,874
when Ken said, "a 
complicated human being

1415
00:59:37,874 --> 00:59:40,977
"is a contradiction in terms,"

1416
00:59:42,378 --> 00:59:43,713
that's so true. (chuckles)

1417
00:59:43,713 --> 00:59:45,481
I mean, you know, human being,

1418
00:59:45,481 --> 00:59:48,318
that assumes, we're 
all very complicated,

1419
00:59:48,318 --> 00:59:50,520
but you need to say complicated,

1420
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:53,489
because people don't always 
make that connection.

1421
00:59:53,489 --> 00:59:56,225
But I think that's a perfect 
way of describing it.

1422
00:59:57,927 --> 01:00:00,163
You know, Ali is a human being.

1423
01:00:00,163 --> 01:00:03,099
He was not a cartoon character.

1424
01:00:03,099 --> 01:00:04,634
He was not a character

1425
01:00:04,634 --> 01:00:07,770
that a screenwriter 
wrote to put in a movie.

1426
01:00:07,770 --> 01:00:09,539
He was a person.

1427
01:00:09,539 --> 01:00:12,442
And, you know, I mean, 
we talked earlier about

1428
01:00:12,442 --> 01:00:16,713
a human being dealing 
with illness, right?

1429
01:00:16,713 --> 01:00:18,047
That's human.

1430
01:00:18,047 --> 01:00:20,984
To see him with Janet 
Evans on that stage,

1431
01:00:20,984 --> 01:00:22,719
we saw humanity.

1432
01:00:22,719 --> 01:00:23,653
- [Ken] Right.

1433
01:00:23,653 --> 01:00:25,088
- Not always pretty, right?

1434
01:00:26,756 --> 01:00:29,292
Whole lot easier to see him,

1435
01:00:29,292 --> 01:00:30,793
you know, bouncing 
around the ring

1436
01:00:30,793 --> 01:00:32,662
after he beat Sonny Liston.

1437
01:00:32,662 --> 01:00:34,297
That's a lot more uplifting

1438
01:00:34,297 --> 01:00:36,366
than to see him standing 
there shaking, right?

1439
01:00:36,366 --> 01:00:37,934
But that's real.

1440
01:00:39,002 --> 01:00:40,269
On the same token,

1441
01:00:41,204 --> 01:00:43,239
you look at this scenario,

1442
01:00:44,607 --> 01:00:47,577
particularly involving 
Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier,

1443
01:00:47,577 --> 01:00:49,245
and I want to go back to

1444
01:00:49,245 --> 01:00:52,849
the point Janet Evans was 
making about, you know,

1445
01:00:53,950 --> 01:00:56,853
winning, being a 
champion, distinctions.

1446
01:00:58,254 --> 01:01:02,358
Arguably, one of Ali's greatest 
fights is a fight he lost,

1447
01:01:02,358 --> 01:01:06,295
and that is that fight in the 
year Janet Evans was born.

1448
01:01:06,295 --> 01:01:08,731
I was a young kid,

1449
01:01:08,731 --> 01:01:10,166
but in a lot of ways,

1450
01:01:10,166 --> 01:01:14,470
1971, for me, is the 
beginning of the universe,

1451
01:01:14,470 --> 01:01:17,974
because it's my 
discovery of Muhammad Ali

1452
01:01:17,974 --> 01:01:19,475
and the lead-up to the fight.

1453
01:01:19,475 --> 01:01:21,577
I just keep seeing 
this guy on television

1454
01:01:21,577 --> 01:01:23,913
and he's jumping out 
of the television

1455
01:01:23,913 --> 01:01:26,449
for me, this seven-year-old kid,

1456
01:01:26,449 --> 01:01:28,885
and I remember my 
parents were, like,

1457
01:01:28,885 --> 01:01:31,821
going to watch the 
fight on closed-circuit.

1458
01:01:31,821 --> 01:01:34,924
They got dressed up 
and it was a big deal,

1459
01:01:34,924 --> 01:01:37,493
and they came back that night 
and I wanted to know who won.

1460
01:01:37,493 --> 01:01:40,463
I was up way later than 
I should have been.

1461
01:01:40,463 --> 01:01:43,266
They told me Ali lost 
and it broke my heart.

1462
01:01:43,266 --> 01:01:45,034
How could he, how 
could this guy lose?

1463
01:01:45,034 --> 01:01:46,569
I'm seven years old.

1464
01:01:46,569 --> 01:01:49,706
I didn't know very much 
about boxing, Joe Frazier.

1465
01:01:49,706 --> 01:01:51,641
I didn't know much 
about anything.

1466
01:01:51,641 --> 01:01:52,942
I'm a seven-year-old kid

1467
01:01:52,942 --> 01:01:55,845
who's been captivated 
by this man's persona.

1468
01:01:55,845 --> 01:01:57,380
"No, he did not lose.

1469
01:01:57,380 --> 01:01:58,781
"Don't tell me that.

1470
01:01:58,781 --> 01:02:00,817
"That's not possible," right?

1471
01:02:00,817 --> 01:02:02,151
But you're in that moment.

1472
01:02:03,453 --> 01:02:04,420
Later,

1473
01:02:05,455 --> 01:02:07,323
many years later,

1474
01:02:07,323 --> 01:02:09,425
I'm talking to my father,

1475
01:02:09,425 --> 01:02:11,394
who introduced me to all this,

1476
01:02:11,394 --> 01:02:15,264
and we're talking about 
the Frazier fight,

1477
01:02:15,264 --> 01:02:16,632
and my father says to me,

1478
01:02:16,632 --> 01:02:19,602
"You know, I really didn't like

1479
01:02:19,602 --> 01:02:23,639
"the way Ali went 
after Joe Frazier."

1480
01:02:23,639 --> 01:02:25,575
He goes, "I understood he 
was promoting the fight

1481
01:02:25,575 --> 01:02:26,843
"and he wanted to sell it.

1482
01:02:26,843 --> 01:02:30,279
"But the things he was 
saying about Frazier,

1483
01:02:30,279 --> 01:02:33,216
"you know, if you're 
in a barbershop

1484
01:02:33,216 --> 01:02:35,084
"and two guys are 
having an argument

1485
01:02:35,084 --> 01:02:36,085
"and they say those things,

1486
01:02:36,085 --> 01:02:37,186
"maybe it's funny,

1487
01:02:37,186 --> 01:02:38,621
"maybe you laugh.

1488
01:02:38,621 --> 01:02:40,490
"The public didn't 
need to hear that."

1489
01:02:40,490 --> 01:02:44,360
Ali went after Joe Frazier in 
a particularly racialized way.

1490
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:47,330
He talked about his features, 
his physical features,

1491
01:02:48,531 --> 01:02:50,466
you know, which you 
referred to, Lonnae.

1492
01:02:50,466 --> 01:02:52,401
He talked about his 
physical features.

1493
01:02:52,401 --> 01:02:53,903
He called him dumb.

1494
01:02:53,903 --> 01:02:56,038
He talked about him, I think 
I say this in the film,

1495
01:02:56,038 --> 01:02:57,807
he talked about him the way

1496
01:02:57,807 --> 01:03:01,110
racist white people would 
talk about Black people.

1497
01:03:01,110 --> 01:03:02,311
But this is Muhammad Ali.

1498
01:03:02,311 --> 01:03:04,147
This is not a racist 
white person saying it.

1499
01:03:04,147 --> 01:03:07,183
So, in some ways it almost 
gives people license

1500
01:03:07,183 --> 01:03:09,452
to say the kinda 
things he's saying

1501
01:03:09,452 --> 01:03:11,053
because he's saying it,

1502
01:03:12,021 --> 01:03:13,489
and he's so charismatic.

1503
01:03:14,891 --> 01:03:17,059
Something you notice, though, 
when you watch this film,

1504
01:03:17,059 --> 01:03:20,363
and I've had the privilege of 
watching it multiple times,

1505
01:03:20,363 --> 01:03:24,567
there's a different Ali in 
the lead-up to the fight

1506
01:03:25,802 --> 01:03:27,537
than there is after the fight.

1507
01:03:28,538 --> 01:03:30,106
Before every fight,

1508
01:03:30,106 --> 01:03:31,507
he's gonna sell the fight.

1509
01:03:31,507 --> 01:03:34,243
He was strongly 
influenced by wrestling,

1510
01:03:34,243 --> 01:03:38,147
particularly a wrestler 
known as Gorgeous George.

1511
01:03:38,147 --> 01:03:40,950
He said he recognized 
how Gorgeous George

1512
01:03:40,950 --> 01:03:44,120
could become this 
kinda hated figure,

1513
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:47,590
and people would pay money 
to come and see him lose.

1514
01:03:47,590 --> 01:03:49,592
He put his own twist on that.

1515
01:03:49,592 --> 01:03:52,461
But if you watch Muhammad 
Ali after a fight,

1516
01:03:52,461 --> 01:03:54,831
he's one of the most 
humble people in the world,

1517
01:03:54,831 --> 01:03:57,266
I don't care who he's fighting.

1518
01:03:57,266 --> 01:03:59,035
The contrast is amazing,

1519
01:03:59,035 --> 01:04:01,237
and you can see this 
throughout the documentary.

1520
01:04:01,237 --> 01:04:02,505
Before the fight,

1521
01:04:02,505 --> 01:04:06,509
he's gonna use all sorts 
of slurs and criticisms

1522
01:04:07,944 --> 01:04:10,980
and everything he can to get 
under his opponent's skin,

1523
01:04:10,980 --> 01:04:12,515
and after the fight,

1524
01:04:12,515 --> 01:04:14,150
we're not promoting it anymore.

1525
01:04:14,150 --> 01:04:15,618
He's gonna show the humanity.

1526
01:04:15,618 --> 01:04:19,488
So I think what we have to 
look at is the fact that Ali,

1527
01:04:19,488 --> 01:04:22,124
and Ken mentioned this earlier,

1528
01:04:22,124 --> 01:04:26,429
later in his life, said he 
had two prominent regrets:

1529
01:04:26,429 --> 01:04:29,131
his relationship with Malcolm X,

1530
01:04:29,131 --> 01:04:34,136
and the way in which he 
talked about Joe Frazier.

1531
01:04:35,304 --> 01:04:37,306
The problem is, Joe 
Frazier, great boxer,

1532
01:04:37,306 --> 01:04:39,308
and if we're just 
talking about boxing,

1533
01:04:39,308 --> 01:04:40,910
one of the great heavyweights.

1534
01:04:41,777 --> 01:04:43,980
Joe Frazier was not well spoken.

1535
01:04:43,980 --> 01:04:46,349
He was not charismatic.

1536
01:04:46,349 --> 01:04:47,583
He was not Ali.

1537
01:04:47,583 --> 01:04:48,684
I mean, that's an 
understatement.

1538
01:04:48,684 --> 01:04:50,853
Who is, right?

1539
01:04:50,853 --> 01:04:52,989
I felt like Ali took 
advantage of Joe Frazier,

1540
01:04:52,989 --> 01:04:54,323
and he took advantage 
of the fact that

1541
01:04:54,323 --> 01:04:56,993
he couldn't keep up 
with him in that way.

1542
01:04:56,993 --> 01:04:58,361
Nobody could!

1543
01:04:58,361 --> 01:05:01,530
But Joe Frazier 
certainly couldn't do it.

1544
01:05:01,530 --> 01:05:03,733
George Foreman, in 1974,

1545
01:05:03,733 --> 01:05:07,670
is a somewhat less 
sympathetic character, to me,

1546
01:05:07,670 --> 01:05:10,673
than Joe Frazier was in 1971.

1547
01:05:10,673 --> 01:05:15,678
But what you have is a figure 
in Ali who is very popular,

1548
01:05:16,412 --> 01:05:17,914
very charismatic,

1549
01:05:17,914 --> 01:05:20,149
and there are moments when 
he uses his powers for evil

1550
01:05:20,149 --> 01:05:24,120
as opposed to using 
his powers for good.

1551
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:26,989
That is probably something 
that can, at some level,

1552
01:05:26,989 --> 01:05:28,891
be said about all of us.

1553
01:05:28,891 --> 01:05:29,725
- [Ken] Right.

1554
01:05:29,725 --> 01:05:30,660
- Right?

1555
01:05:30,660 --> 01:05:32,028
That's the humanity of it.

1556
01:05:32,028 --> 01:05:34,130
So when you look at him,

1557
01:05:34,130 --> 01:05:37,967
it's not about, you know, 
celebrating a saint.

1558
01:05:37,967 --> 01:05:42,972
It's about celebrating a 
really compelling human being,

1559
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:46,475
warts and all.

1560
01:05:46,475 --> 01:05:51,480
And so, you can't just talk 
about winning boxing matches,

1561
01:05:52,081 --> 01:05:53,649
or the rhymes,

1562
01:05:53,649 --> 01:05:55,584
or how charismatic he was.

1563
01:05:55,584 --> 01:05:57,386
You also have to talk about

1564
01:05:57,386 --> 01:05:59,655
the fact that this 
was a human being,

1565
01:05:59,655 --> 01:06:01,057
and like all human beings,

1566
01:06:01,057 --> 01:06:03,059
there are things he did that,

1567
01:06:03,059 --> 01:06:04,994
perhaps given the opportunity,

1568
01:06:04,994 --> 01:06:06,529
he wouldn't do a second time.

1569
01:06:08,230 --> 01:06:09,465
- Well said.

1570
01:06:09,465 --> 01:06:11,233
- And because this is 
the 25th anniversary

1571
01:06:11,233 --> 01:06:12,068
of the torch lighting,

1572
01:06:12,068 --> 01:06:13,235
I would be remiss,

1573
01:06:13,235 --> 01:06:14,403
we gotta close out,

1574
01:06:14,403 --> 01:06:15,905
but Janet,

1575
01:06:16,839 --> 01:06:18,274
I have a question,

1576
01:06:18,274 --> 01:06:22,011
and Richard from the audience 
echoes that question.

1577
01:06:22,011 --> 01:06:24,513
When did you find out

1578
01:06:24,513 --> 01:06:28,484
that you were going to hand 
the torch to Muhammad Ali,

1579
01:06:28,484 --> 01:06:32,955
and what was, like, what was 
your self-talk? (chuckles)

1580
01:06:32,955 --> 01:06:35,291
(mumbles) What's 
happening? (chuckles)

1581
01:06:35,291 --> 01:06:38,094
- (chuckles) I found out the 
night before at midnight,

1582
01:06:38,094 --> 01:06:39,862
during our rehearsal,

1583
01:06:40,896 --> 01:06:43,399
and Ali had rehearsed 
prior to me,

1584
01:06:43,399 --> 01:06:45,301
so I only found 
out, as mentioned,

1585
01:06:45,301 --> 01:06:47,636
because he had 
continued to drop it,

1586
01:06:47,636 --> 01:06:49,438
and Billy Payne had said to me,

1587
01:06:49,438 --> 01:06:51,307
"This is the plan if 
he drops it," right?

1588
01:06:51,307 --> 01:06:53,209
"Otherwise, we're 
not gonna tell you."

1589
01:06:53,209 --> 01:06:55,144
And I was swimmer, all right?

1590
01:06:55,144 --> 01:06:56,278
I can't run.

1591
01:06:57,613 --> 01:07:00,016
I'm just like, 
"Wait, I have to run

1592
01:07:00,016 --> 01:07:00,983
"all the way around his track,

1593
01:07:00,983 --> 01:07:02,518
"up these three long ramps,

1594
01:07:02,518 --> 01:07:04,487
"and Muhammad Ali's gonna be 
waiting for me?" (chuckles)

1595
01:07:04,487 --> 01:07:07,456
Like, so my self-talk 
wasn't very good, right?

1596
01:07:07,456 --> 01:07:12,461
It was very, I was very, 
clearly very worried,

1597
01:07:13,195 --> 01:07:14,363
but I will tell you,

1598
01:07:14,363 --> 01:07:16,399
when I got up there 
and I saw him,

1599
01:07:16,399 --> 01:07:18,234
I knew it was gonna be okay.

1600
01:07:18,234 --> 01:07:21,303
It just, was just, it was,

1601
01:07:21,303 --> 01:07:22,538
I just knew it 
was gonna be okay.

1602
01:07:22,538 --> 01:07:24,106
And it was, so-

1603
01:07:24,106 --> 01:07:25,341
- It certainly was,

1604
01:07:25,341 --> 01:07:27,376
and he just gave 
you that strength.

1605
01:07:29,912 --> 01:07:31,113
I just want to thank you.

1606
01:07:31,113 --> 01:07:32,348
It's so funny,

1607
01:07:32,348 --> 01:07:34,550
I feel like we've barely 
scratched the surface,

1608
01:07:34,550 --> 01:07:35,684
and we've been here-

1609
01:07:35,684 --> 01:07:37,219
- We've barely 
scratched the surface.

1610
01:07:37,219 --> 01:07:41,557
- There's everything to say 
about him centering Africa,

1611
01:07:41,557 --> 01:07:44,126
about the ways that 
he still continues

1612
01:07:44,126 --> 01:07:45,961
to unfold on the world stage.

1613
01:07:45,961 --> 01:07:46,796
I'll hang around.

1614
01:07:46,796 --> 01:07:48,330
Out of all of you,

1615
01:07:48,330 --> 01:07:51,734
I probably have the least 
to do right now, you know.

1616
01:07:51,734 --> 01:07:52,968
I'm sorta good,

1617
01:07:52,968 --> 01:07:55,538
but I do want to go 
ahead and wrap up,

1618
01:07:55,538 --> 01:07:58,808
and thank the audience 
at home for joining us.

1619
01:07:58,808 --> 01:07:59,909
Thank you, Todd.

1620
01:07:59,909 --> 01:08:01,811
Thank you, Janet.

1621
01:08:01,811 --> 01:08:03,879
And congratulations, again, Ken,

1622
01:08:03,879 --> 01:08:07,516
and thank you for 
such a singular look

1623
01:08:07,516 --> 01:08:10,119
at this, at the life 
of Muhammad Ali.

1624
01:08:10,119 --> 01:08:11,620
- Well, you know, the 
other anniversary,

1625
01:08:11,620 --> 01:08:13,923
it's 25 years since the 
lighting of the torch,

1626
01:08:13,923 --> 01:08:16,392
and when we started, 
it was almost exactly.

1627
01:08:16,392 --> 01:08:20,663
It is now almost exactly 
two months from now,

1628
01:08:20,663 --> 01:08:24,366
8:00 Eastern time 
on September 19th,

1629
01:08:24,366 --> 01:08:27,103
that PBS will begin 
broadcasting this series,

1630
01:08:27,103 --> 01:08:28,971
and it'll be available 
for streaming,

1631
01:08:28,971 --> 01:08:31,207
but it'll run the 
next four nights,

1632
01:08:31,207 --> 01:08:33,242
if you're still wedded 
to broadcast television,

1633
01:08:33,242 --> 01:08:37,279
and available for streaming 
exactly two months from now.

1634
01:08:37,279 --> 01:08:39,115
And so, I really hope that,

1635
01:08:39,115 --> 01:08:41,617
because it's impossible 
to scratch the surface,

1636
01:08:41,617 --> 01:08:44,086
nor did we, in eight hours,

1637
01:08:45,521 --> 01:08:48,357
that we hope that you'll 
all join us and watch it,

1638
01:08:48,357 --> 01:08:51,760
and see Todd in all 
his magnificence,

1639
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:53,195
and Muhammad Ali,

1640
01:08:53,195 --> 01:08:58,200
and see you, too, Janet, running 
up, expertly, those ramps,

1641
01:08:59,068 --> 01:09:01,403
and to begin to dive deeper

1642
01:09:01,403 --> 01:09:05,207
into this most interesting of

1643
01:09:05,207 --> 01:09:08,477
complicated, 
redundant human being.

1644
01:09:08,477 --> 01:09:11,947
- And, before that, 
let me just say,

1645
01:09:11,947 --> 01:09:14,583
please be on the lookout 
for two more installments

1646
01:09:14,583 --> 01:09:16,418
in our "Conversations" series.

1647
01:09:16,418 --> 01:09:20,322
We've got "Ali, Race & 
Religion," September 9,

1648
01:09:20,322 --> 01:09:25,327
and "Ali, Activism & the Modern 
Athlete" on September 14.

1649
01:09:26,896 --> 01:09:30,933
So lots of other ways 
to continue to get 
into the Ali story.

1650
01:09:30,933 --> 01:09:34,570
Please sign up for those 
events at pbs.org/alievents.

1651
01:09:36,005 --> 01:09:39,542
And, as Ken said, please do 
tune in to "Muhammad Ali,"

1652
01:09:39,542 --> 01:09:42,711
a film by Ken Burns, Sarah 
Burns, and David McMahon

1653
01:09:42,711 --> 01:09:44,346
that we're so grateful they did,

1654
01:09:44,346 --> 01:09:47,483
and premiering, again, 
September 19 on PBS.

1655
01:09:48,417 --> 01:09:50,019
Thank you all.

1656
01:09:50,019 --> 01:09:51,420
- Thank you, Lonnae.

1657
01:09:51,420 --> 01:09:53,455
Thank you, Janet, Todd.

1658
01:09:53,455 --> 01:09:54,290
Thanks.