- [Narrator] Montana AG

Live is made possible

by the MontanaDepartment

of Agriculture,

the MSU Extension Service,

the MSU AG Experiment Stations

of the College of Agriculture,

The Montana Wheat

and Barley Committee,

The Montana Bankers Association,

Cashman Nursery and Landscaping,

The Gallatin Gardeners Club

and The Rocky Mountain

Certified Crop Advisor Program.

(country music)

- Good evening folks.

Welcome to another new

edition of Montana AG Live

originating tonight from

the studios at KUSM,

on the campus of

Montana State University

and also from our

homes and offices

at various locations around

the beautiful state of Montana.

I'm Jack Riesselman.

I'll be your host and

moderator tonight.

I'm a retired professor

of plant pathology.

Happy to be here, happy

to have you watching.

Above all else,

what we need is some

of your questions.

This program's success

is based on the questions

that you asked because other

people also are interested

in those questions.

Answering the phones tonight

to take these questions are

Bruce Lobel and Nancy Blake.

They will send those questions

to me via slack technology

on this little

computer in front of me

and I'll be able to relay

them to the various people

that we have on the

panel this evening.

Before we start, let

me introduce the panel.

Here in the studio with me

tonight is Mary Burrows.

Everybody knows Mary.

She's both an extension

plant pathologist

and associate director of

the AG Experiment Station.

That's a relatively

new position for her.

So welcome.

Our guest tonight

and we're really happy to

have her, Jamie Lockman.

Jamie is over in Missoula.

She is the head or

executive director

of the Montana

Organic Association.

I think it's called MOA.

- (mumbles) I think.

- Okay, well if

you have questions

about organic agriculture,

send them in tonight

because we have the expert

here and we also have

some other people

with the university

who can help answer

these questions.

Also joining us tonight on

the panel are Jane Mangold,

wave at the crowd,

and Clain Jones.

We've always had a

soil scientist on

couple times a year.

Clain has a lot of good

information for us.

Before we go any farther,

Jamie, tell us a little bit

about the Montana

Organic Association.

- Sure, well we got

our start in 2003

which was just after the

organic program came into being.

You know Montana has some

real pioneers in organic ag.

We are the number one

organic wheat producing state

in the country and we're number

two or three for lentils.

We're a trade association.

We earned that status in 2006

and our mission is to advocate

and promote organic agriculture

for the highest

good of the people,

the environment and

the state's economy.

Among the things that we do

are to have education events.

We have an annual conference,

this year we won't do that,

but we will have

some virtual events,

but our conference has

been very well received.

We do a farm tour usually,

at least one a year.

This year we did it virtually.

We have those videos available

on MOA's YouTube channel

and Montana Public Television

was actually helpful

in getting those videos done.

We're really good at networking.

There have been some

really amazing products

that have come out

of our conference

and members getting

to know each other

and communicating

with one another.

We do some policy work.

This year you know, we

haven't had the fly ends to DC

like we would in the

past, but typically

at least a couple times a

year somebody goes to DC

and advocates for organic ag

and then we also work

with some researchers

at Montana State University

and try to give them a platform

for sharing their

latest research

and we have a newsletter

and lately we've been hosting

discussions virtually via Zoom

on meat processing in Montana.

- Okay, quick question.

You say agriculture.

That also includes truck

farming, small gardeners,

people like that that

are organically based?

- We have a diverse membership.

We do have direct

market farmers.

We have some orchardists,

we have cattle ranchers,

we have some folks

who raise poultry.

There's a couple organic

vineyards in the state

and then certainly

grain and pulses.

I think one of the

important things to know

about organic agriculture,

especially when you're talking

about the eastern

side of the state

and my companions here

can speak to this better,

but you're talking about

farming in a rotation.

So you're not just monocropping

and growing wheat every year.

You're incorporating a

lot of different crops.

You know, some of

our folks have nine,

10, 11 year rotations.

- Okay thank you, we'll be back

with some questions for

Jamie, they are coming in,

meanwhile we have Jane,

our invasive wheat

specialist tonight

and I have a stack

of leftover questions

from last week and a

few new ones coming in.

First of all from Townsend,

this person has a lot of

cheatgrass in their alfalfa.

They would like to know

if they can spray it out

when the alfalfa

becomes dormant?

Your comment and if you can,

what would you suggest using?

- Yeah, that is a

strategy for dealing

with cheatgrass in alfalfa.

Now would be a good time to do

that in the fall of the year.

Cheatgrass comes up

in the fall and then,

so now would be an option

if the cheatgrass is up

and the alfalfa is dormant.

The other option would be

to do that in the spring

and typically people are

using glyphosate products

at a fairly low rate, like

four to six ounces per acre.

So that is an option.

You can target the cheatgrass

when it is actively growing,

but your alfalfa is dormant.

Typically, if you're

trying to choose

between fall or spring,

spring has worked a

little better for people

and I think one of the reasons

it does work a little better

is cheatgrass, most of

it emerges in the fall,

but you do have some seeds

that don't germinate and

emerge until the spring,

late winter, early spring.

So if you wait until spring,

you're able to control both

the fall emerging seedlings

and the spring

emerging seedlings.

So that's probably

the best option is

just a small, not small,

but a low rate application

of glyphosate when the

alfalfa is dormant.

- I mean what about,

you know given Jamie's

presence here today,

what about for

somebody who's organic

and doesn't want

to use glyphosate?

- Yeah, well you have

a couple different

options with cheatgrass.

They're a little more, they're

a little more challenging,

I would say.

You know, one of the reasons

I think people a lot of

people use herbicides

is they're pretty,

they're easy to use.

They're quick and easy to use,

but another option would

be some fall grazing

if you have the option of

grazing in your alfalfa fields.

Cheatgrass is very good forage

when it's in that

seedling stage.

So fall or spring grazing.

I think that would

probably be you know,

an option that would

control the cheatgrass

without stimulating

other weeds to grow

and of course it's

always very important

to manage that alfalfa well.

So fertilizing it at

the right time you know,

taking good care of your alfalfa

so it can be as

strong and competitive

and vigorous as possible.

- All right, thank you.

Yeah you mentioned that,

throw this out to Jamie

and you anybody else

who wants to jump in.

If you're establishing

an organic system,

are weeds the most

difficult things

that you have to contend with

in order to have a viable

crop, your opinion?

- My opinion?

I mean it's certainly

something to consider.

I think for

transitioning to organic,

you know, what most folks

have the problem with is

that your yield might go down,

but your prices are

still those lower prices,

you're not getting

those organic premiums.

So I think that is probably

one of the first barriers.

I'm not, I don't

know of any research

that's been done on that,

but that's an

interesting question.

- I do know several

organic farmers

who have left the

organic program

because they couldn't

control perennial weeds.

Primarily bindweed

and Canada thistle,

even with tillage are

sometimes really

challenging to control.

so they've left

organic, sprayed it out

and then come back into organic.

so those are challenging weeds.

- [Jack] Okay thank you.

- Yes, and I could add

Jack that a few years back,

MSU worked with your

Organic Research

and Education Advisory Council

and we surveyed organic

growers across the state

asking them about some of,

what some of their most

challenging issues were

and like Clain said,

perennial weeds,

particularly Canada thistle

and field bindweed

rose to the top.

- I agree with that entirely.

We're on organic pesticides.

Mary, there's a question here.

Are there any organic

approved fungicides

for gardens and also

they want to know

if you could use any on wheat.

- Yeah, there are a number

of approved fungicides.

The best database

that I've found,

especially for

commercial growers is

the IR-4 Biopesticide database

and the great thing about that

is that the data associated

with the use is right

there linked to the product

and you can choose by crop or

by function and your state.

Always make sure

that the product is

registered in the state

before you would apply it

and the big problem we have

with organic problem,

organic products is

that efficacy data,

we just don't have a lot.

So you can be sold

something saying

that it will do

something for you,

but even if you look at

the literature associated

with the product, you may

not find any information

on that use.

So you kind of have

to do your homework.

- It's kind of a

new industry too.

- It is, but you know,

I've got staff working

on organic options and not

only for organic growers,

but conventional growers.

I think 80% of the organically

approved pesticides are used

in conventional operations.

- That's an

interesting statistic.

Okay, thank you.

Jamie, an interesting question

came in from Missoula.

This person thinks

for the most part

that the organic agriculture

or organic products is more

about marketing

than anything else.

Would you agree to that or not?

- No, absolutely not.

Our organic producers adhere

to strict guidelines and rules.

You know, to stay organic

they're inspected every year.

The rules are established

by the National

Organic Standards Board

and Montana is very proud

to have one of our MOA members,

Nate Powell-Palm

sits on that board.

We've only had two

Montanans sit on that,

so it's a big deal.

We're very proud of him

and if your operation sells

under five thousand

dollars' worth of products,

you don't have to worry about

the certification as much,

but if you put an organic

label on a non-organic product,

you can actually be

subjected to a fine

of up to $17,000.

Organic fraud is an issue.

There is legislation to

strengthen organic inspections

and rules, but no, it's

not just a marketing tool.

- Okay thank you, back to Clain.

This question always

comes in in the fall.

When is it a good time

to fertilize your lawn?

Right now or wait?

- I would say I

would say right now

till maybe early October is

a good time to fertilize.

If you've already

fertilized quite a bit,

you might not have to, but

those people who spread it out

among three or

four applications.

Right now is a really good time.

It will help your grass

green up in the springtime.

- Okay, as long as we're on

the organic subject tonight,

are there some

organic fertilizers

that you could use on

lawns, not just gardens,

but lawns or for that

matter, fields too.

- Yeah, there's a huge

number of products out there,

probably more for the

home gardener actually

than for a large-scale

agriculture.

From rock phosphate, bone

meal for phosphorus sources,

there's blood meal, feather

meal for nitrogen sources,

there's potassium

and chloride sources.

So a whole bunch of organic

products are out there

for the home gardener.

The large scale ag, some

of those same exist,

but sometimes they become a

little more cost prohibitive

than they do for

organic gardener.

I think the biggest thing

that organic farmers

on a large acreage fight

with is nitrogen sufficiency

and so how they often

get their nitrogen is

either with green manures,

meaning growing plants,

legumes that provide

nitrogen or animal manure.

So those are the main two ways

that a lot of farmers will

get their organic nutrients.

- Okay thank you, Mary

a call from Heron.

This person has grown

sunflowers on the north side,

I assume of their

house for 40 years.

The last couple of years

they've been damping off

when they near maturity before

they bloom, what's wrong?

- It could be a disease

called white mold

that is very common in

sunflowers and other dicots

and a characteristic

symptom of that is that

where it usually infects

through the flower,

but if it affects at the

stem, it's very gray,

has a gray cast and they could

certainly give us a sample

and we can easily diagnose that.

- If you're growing

sunflowers for 40 years

in the same place,

the likelihood

of having white

mold is pretty high.

- Is pretty high.

I'm surprised they

can keep doing that

'cause the soil quality

gets really poor.

- It does, okay thank you.

From Bozeman, Jamie is

organic production increasing

in the state?

- Absolutely, yeah.

It's gone up the double

digits for years.

We have over 320 operations

now and that includes handlers

and coffee roasters and things,

but we are, Montana

is the second,

has the second highest

organic acreage in the country

right behind California.

- [Jack] That's

pretty impressive.

- That's impressive.

- Financially, is it more

profitable in general

to sell organic produce

or organic wheat

than it is just normal

production crops?

- In general, you're

gonna get a premium, yeah.

You know, certainly

with a higher supply

of organic products,

the price will go down.

I know in my grocery store,

a lot a lot of times

the organic apples say

or the organic bananas are,

the price is pretty

same as the non-organic.

So in general, yeah

there will be a premium.

- Okay, thank you.

Interesting question for

Jane from Eastern Montana.

This person has problems

with puncturevine

and I grew up around

puncturevine and

old bicycle tires

and they didn't get

along very well.

They would like to know if it

is a noxious weed in Montana

and if not, how does it

become a noxious weed?

Have at it.

- Okay yeah, so

puncturevine is not

on the state noxious weed list.

It may be on some county lists,

but I haven't seen that

list for a couple years

for the different counties

so I don't know exactly.

If the person wanted to find out

if it was on the county

list where the person lives,

they could call their

county weed district

and ask about any

county listed species.

As far as a species

becoming a state list,

becoming a state noxious weed,

that is done through the Montana

Department of Agriculture

and there is a process

where someone can petition

to have a species added

to the noxious weed list.

Actually the Department of

AG is accepting petitions

through the end of this month.

Once they have those petitions,

it is reviewed by a

group of volunteers

that look at the species,

they review the information.

They might do a

literature review

as far as what's

available research-wise,

what do we know

about this species.

They make a recommendation

to the director

of the Department of AG

and ultimately the director

of the Department of AG rules

whether or not a species gets

added to the noxious weed list

and there is a

public comment period

that is incorporated

into the process,

but if this viewer is, wants

to know if it's locally listed,

I would suggest they contact

their county weed district.

- How widespread

Jane, is puncturevine

in the state of Montana?

I have not seen much of it,

but I hope not (mumbles).

- Yeah, yeah I

haven't either Jack

and it's interesting

that this call came in

from Eastern Montana.

Usually when I get questions

about puncturevine,

it's coming from

Yellowstone county.

So the Billings area and

then maybe to the south

and the east from Billings.

I don't get many questions

and I haven't seen

it myself in counties

in the rest of the state.

- Okay thank you, I'll turn

this one to Jamie and Mary.

A caller from Helena would

like details on what research

by the Montana AG Experiment

Station is ongoing

relative to organic agriculture.

So between the two

of you, let us know.

- Well I've been in the job

for a week, so I'm an expert.

- Oh, so you should know by now.

- (laughs) We've been

doing a little bit

for fungicide seed treatments.

I know Zach Miller at western

has been doing a bunch

on weed management,

perennial weeds especially.

There's been a number

of other projects,

but there's a

whole organic acre.

Perry Miller's been doing a

lot of with sheep grazing.

What other ones are

you aware of Jamie?

- Pat Carr at Moccasin and

then Dave Sands too is doing

some really innovative

work with bio control

of Canadian thistle.

- Yeah, so quite a bit.

- Yeah, and I think

you're gonna see more.

- Yeah, there's probably

a lot we don't know about.

- Well, no that's true,

but at least there is

quite a little bit ongoing

at the current time.

- Yes.

- Yeah okay.

- Jack, I believe Tim Seifel

who I think was on last week,

he's the crop weed specialist.

He's working with Canada

thistle and bindweed

with some of the,

I think some of the people

that Mary and Jamie

have mentioned

like Pat Carr and Zach Miller.

- Okay and why have you, Jane,

here's an interesting question.

I look forward to seeing

what you have to say.

The Whitefish community garden

growers would like to know

how to control bindweed

which has started

growing in their plots.

They would like an

organic remedy, go for it.

- Yeah well, too

bad Tim isn't here

to talk about some of the

research they're doing,

but so field bindweed, if

people have watched this show

for any period of time, they

know that we always get calls

about field bindweed.

It's one of these perennial

species that creeps

as a very extensive root system.

It sounds like the

caller says it's just

maybe starting to show up

and that's a good thing

because if it's just

starting to show up,

I would encourage them to

just continue to pull it.

Every time you see

the sprouts coming

through the surface

of the soil, pull it

because if you

continue to pull it,

the plant has to rely on its

root reserves to grow back

and if you can keep

pulling the leaves off

and disturbing that root system,

you can deplete the

roots over time,

but you need to be doing that

like every time you see

the sprouts coming up

and you probably you know,

do that throughout

the growing season

and you'll probably need to

do it for a couple years.

You can't let up or back off.

You have to stay on top of it.

- If you tilt it, you

just spread it, don't you?

- Yeah that, if you're

breaking it up and yeah,

it can, the root fragments

can continue to grow.

I'm trying to think if

there'd be any other.

- Can you landscape fabric

that section of the garden

for a while and?

- Yeah, I was going to say

like some sort of

physical barrier.

Some sort of landscape

fabric, black plastic.

Even mulch you know, if you

could get some mulch down

to try to shade it out.

- Okay good answer folks.

While I have you up, this

person called in from Billings

and would like to know

is puncturevine the

same as goat heads?

- Yes it is.

- Farther south you go,

they call them goat heads.

Farther north you go, they

call them puncturevines.

That's what I've

been told anyway.

Clain, this is an

interesting question.

This person has a whole

bunch of spruce trees

about 65 of them in fact.

They're 10 to 20 feet tall,

eight to 15 years

old from Livingston.

He has been fertilizing

with 17, 17, 17.

Should he continue?

- Good question, I would

strongly recommend a soil test.

Not knowing how many pounds,

he or she's putting down,

it's really hard to know

if there's possibly too

much nutrients on there.

When I think of trees,

we don't have a tree expert on,

but I think some of you know

a little more than I do,

I think of their

needs for nitrogen

possibly not being as much

as P and K, but I don't know.

I know that over

winter survival,

phosphorus is more

important than nitrogen.

I would really strongly

recommend a soil test

before deciding what to put on.

You might find for example

one of those nutrients is low

and the other two are excessive.

In which case that fertilizer

regime should change.

- You know, I think 17, 17, 17

is an acceptable fertilizer,

but I don't think

at this time of year

I would be fertilizing because

you don't wanna promote

new growth as we

approach winter.

We could get a 15 degree night

and you could really do

some damage to those trees.

So I've often said that you

should probably stop fertilizing

if you are fertilizing around

the first week of July.

If you over fertilize,

you stimulate trees

and stimulated trees

that grow faster

than their genetically

supposed to are often damaged

by winter here in Montana.

- Yeah, and Cheryl

last week talked

about watering and tapering off,

watering now until

things are dormant.

- Okay.

- If that person

or anyone wants to

know how to soil test

or where to send a soil to,

they can go to my website by

googling Clain and then soil

and I usually come up and then

jump over to home gardening

on the left and they'll

find a whole list of labs

and some tips for soil sampling.

- Okay thanks Clain.

Interesting question

from Three Forks,

actually two of them

came from Three Forks.

Jamie, they would like to know

where to get information

about the transitioning

from regular farming

into organic farming.

How would they get information

on being successful

if they wanted to try that?

- Well they can start

with us and our website

and we can direct them

to different resources

and connect, oftentimes

with farmers in their areas

and the crops or

livestock whatever

activities they're doing

and those experienced farmers

or ranchers can

serve as a mentor.

The Montana Department

of AG organic program is

a really good resource

and they can help connect

with cost share dollars to help

with organic certification.

So to offset some of the

costs of being certified.

NCAT ATTRA headquartered

in Butte has

some really good resources.

The USDA organic program

also has some good,

basic information

about transitioning

and what you should

be thinking about.

- Okay, second question

also from Three Forks,

they're led to believe

that organic crops are

more nutritious

than conventional

crops, is that true?

- You know, there

is research on that.

It's still in the

beginning stages.

You don't really see that

sort of nutritional

research done in the US.

There is some

going on in Europe.

You know I, and looking

at the phytonutrients.

So really tiny parts.

You know, as far

as I'm concerned

part of it comes down to taste.

Like an organic apple

just tastes better

than a non-organic apple and

that's a lot healthier choice

in a lot of ways.

So I'm really excited to

know about the research

that will be going looking

at different items.

Our keynote speaker this year

for our virtual conference

is Fred Provenza

and he is doing research that

is looking at soil health,

connecting that to

livestock health

and connecting that

to human health.

- Okay thank you.

Mary, this question

is from Manhattan.

They have a lot of what they

believe are fungal leaf spots

on their aspen.

Is there any control.

I know it's too late this year,

but looking forward to

next year and onward,

what would you suggest?

- Yeah, good thing about

the fungal leaf spots is

unless your trees defoliated

several years in a row

very early, they're not

gonna really harm the tree,

but you can get rid of

all that leaf litter,

remove it from the area so

it can't re-infect the tree

and that would go

quite a long ways

and obviously don't like

spray or treat with water.

- You know, it normally shows

up late enough in the year

that it doesn't do much

damage, but you're right,

cleaning up and I hate that work

because that's a lot of work.

- It is a lot of work,

but those leaf blowers,

you know, they do a good job.

- That helps, but

the real key is

you cut your lawn real

short and let the wind blow

and all those leaves--

- Goes to your neighbors.

- It goes to your neighbors

and that works, I

can verify that.

I have you up Mary,

Powdery mildew on squash

was bad this year,

what would you suggest?

- You know, I always have it bad

late in the year particularly

and I think it's because I

overhead irrigate quite a bit

and the varieties I use

are very susceptible

to the disease.

It's one of those diseases

that you can do sanitation,

you'll throw that trash away,

don't compost it and

reintroduce it into your garden,

but it's around all the time.

So if you can use

probably P is the signal

in the seed catalog for

powdery mildew or PM,

you can check the key.

Use varieties that

have some resistance

and then don't overhead

irrigate like I do.

- (laughs) That works.

Jane, a couple of things here.

First of all, your

sister says hi from Iowa

and you have a fan club all

over the country, it's amazing.

New York, Iowa.

- I have a big family.

- Okay, anyway they

said to say hi,

but while I have you up,

this person from

Hamilton has prickly pear

and they would like

to get rid of them,

preferably an organic method.

- Oh prickly pear is

really hard to deal with,

whether it's organic

or conventional.

It's a challenging

species to try to control.

You can mechanically control it,

but that's a little,

that's a little tenuous because

when you break it apart,

it can re-root as well.

So if you're looking at

mechanical disturbance,

it would need to

be pretty intense

and of course when you

disturb the soil like that,

you also open yourself up

for other weeds to increase

because weeds love disturbance

and they do really

well with disturbance.

I'd have to think about

that a little bit more,

but I would encourage the

viewer to think about you know,

why they wanna get

rid of prickly pear.

It is a native species.

It usually tends to grow

in certain types of soils.

You know, coarse soils

that are pretty dry.

So if you get rid

of the prickly pear,

you need to think about

well, it's not growing there

and occupying that soil,

what else might grow there?

And the what else could

potentially be worse

than the prickly pear.

So I think you know,

thinking about why you

wanna get rid of it,

what you would rather

have growing there is

an important

consideration to make.

That person can

always give me a call

if they wanna talk more about it

and maybe if we put

our two heads together,

we can come up with

some solutions.

- Okay if you're not

going to do it organically

with things like

roundup or glyphosate,

would that take

care of prickly pear

if you dabbed it on them?

- Well I don't think glyphosate

will work on prickly pear,

but I'm not sure.

When I've looked at some of

the weed management guidebooks

over the years when

people have called me

asking about prickly pear,

if I remember correctly,

one of the options is picloram

which picloram is a

pretty strong herbicide

that has a lot of

residual in the soil

and it also has some

non-target impacts

to desired vegetation.

So again, you're looking at

a pretty intense management

action to control something

that might be growing there

because it's the habitat

that's conducive

to prickly pear.

So there's a lot of

considerations on this one.

All right, we have a lot of

questions tonight about insects.

We don't have a

entomologist on the panel,

we will have them in the future.

So those questions will be saved

and in the future, we'll

get to a lot of those.

Mary, Posen Coller

has a small vineyard.

Is Captan fungicide and organic?

- No.

- No, okay.

This is good,

caller from Bozeman.

Is organic cattle rats ranching

a viable option in Montana?

Have at it Jamie.

- Oh yeah, with COVID,

our organic grass-fed cattle

ranchers have been very busy.

They already kind

of operate outside,

well they do operate

outside the non-organic

cattle markets

and so yes, organic

grass-fed cattle ranching

is viable and robust.

- Okay, I know of

a lot of people

that have switched

to grass-fed beef,

you know and not all of

that's organic though.

- Yeah, one of the things

that we're seeing is

more integration of grazing

into non-cattle operations.

So I know there are some grain

farmers up Great Falls Way,

North Havre that are

incorporating cattle

for the first time this

year into their rotations

for grazing and they're

renting the cattle,

they're not having to take care

of those cows all

year round, so.

- So are there other livestock

that are as popular as cattle

to be raised organically.

- Well you know, I can

tell you the goat market,

there's a tremendous

demand for goat meat

and as far as

profitability goes on that,

I'm not sure what that would be,

but I know there's demand and

it's for the smaller animals.

Certainly you know, sheep

remains an important part

of Montana agriculture

and as does poultry

and hogs, I'm not

as familiar with,

but I do know that we

have several farmers

that include hogs in

their operations as well.

- I found out last year

that Montana is one

of the largest goat-producing

states in the country

and a lot of them are shipped

to the Rocky Mountain Front

down in Denver.

There's a few farmers

that have really started

to grow a large number of

goats in the Billings area.

Plain from Highwood, this

person used to hear a lot

about urea volatilization,

but they haven't

heard much about it.

Is it still an issue now?

- Yeah, it's the process,

urea volatilization means

when you apply urea,

a certain amount of it

goes up to the atmosphere.

The problem's still there.

I think probably people aren't

hearing about it as much

because it's probably that

producer from Highwood knows,

my colleague Rick Engel

has really been focusing

on soil acidification

which is a big deal

in the Highwood and

Choteau County area

in different pockets

with in Montana,

but the process of

urea volatilization

generally is, urea is

applied to dry ground

and then if it doesn't rain

for an extended period,

a week or two, that urea

slowly can volatilize,

especially if we get just

sprinkles over that week or two.

So the worst case

conditions is applying it

well before a rainstorm.

The best conditions

are applying it

right before an irrigation

event or a large rainstorm,

generally a half inch or more.

If that's not possible,

there's products that

protect that urea.

They're called urease inhibitors

or if you can put that

urea under the ground.

So subsurface drill it,

that can really reduce the

amount of volatilization.

- What about lawn fertilizers,

are most of those

urea based also?

- They're a mix.

So they're a mix of urea,

sometimes your ammonium nitrate,

sometimes ammonium sulfate.

So they're a blend.

They're often coated,

which slows the release

and slows that

volatilization down

and the advantage

a home gardener has

over dryland farmers in Montana

is that they can irrigate

after an application

and that will really reduce

the amount of volatilization.

- Okay and while I

have you up, a caller

from Bozeman collects deerskat

and uses it as

fertilizer in his garden.

I don't think we can answer

the rest of this question,

but should he be concerned

about chronic waste and

disease transmission

into his vegetables.

I'd say probably not, but

no expert in that area.

- Yeah, I'm not a CWD expert,

but I think it's a good,

probably a good fertilizer

and to follow up on

a question Jamie had

about transitioning from

conventional to organic,

she listed a bunch

of great resources.

MSU extension as a mod

guide with that title,

transitioning from

conventional to organic

that really focuses

on the agronomics,

weed control and fertilization.

So another resource

for organic farmers.

- Should that grower be worried

about weed seeds in the deer?

- That's a possibility.

I'm sure they do pass through.

In fact that's what

happened in my yard

because I got a lot of weeds

and a lot of deer.

So anyway Great Falls caller

Jamie, would like to know

how to get a hold of a

certifying organic agent

to obtain organic certification.

What's the process?

- I would talk to

Georgana Webster first

at our Montana Department of AG.

She's the head of our

organic program there

and I'm not sure

if they're talking

about certifier or inspector,

is that the question?

- I don't think it's inspector.

I think they would

like to know, yeah.

- Yeah, Georgana Webster

at the at the state.

- Okay, Clain I think I'll

throw this back to you or Mary.

From Bozeman, this person

sees a lot of irrigation

currently happening on fallow

ground harvested fields.

Why is this?

Water's available.

- Yeah, they're probably

trying to get the weeds up

to kill them or get the alfalfa

to get established this fall

or winter weed too

has been going in.

- I agree entirely.

Jane, this person has

a lot of dandelions

and this is not the only person

that has a lot of

them this year.

Should they spray

now or in the spring?

- Oh gosh, do they have time now

or are they going to have

time in the spring or both.

- [Mary] Or both.

- [Jack] Probably both.

- I think it kind of

depends where you are living

and what the next week or

two of weather hands us.

You know it's been fairly

dry and it's been fairly warm

and those conditions

aren't the greatest for

probably for herbicide

applications.

I think that they wondered

if they should try to control

them or spray them now.

I think they'd be better

off spraying in the spring

and also in spring I think,

like right now there's

some dandelions

that have emerged and you know,

they're doing their thing,

but I think by spring,

they'll be even more

dandelions that have emerged

and if you're going

to use a herbicide

to try to control

those you know,

you'll be able to get

both fall emerging

and spring emerging

dandelions in the spring.

- I have an opinion on that

because I always have

lots of dandelions.

I do it in the fall and the

spring to try to kill it.

- Yeah, or fall and spring.

- Yeah and that

works pretty well.

I have noticed this year Jane,

there are a lot of dandelions

which I didn't have,

did not have in the spring

and I live kind

of in the country

and there's dandelions all over.

It's just like Canada thistle.

The seed has spread long

distances in the wind currents.

- You know one thing

I've noticed this fall,

I don't irrigate

my lawn very much.

I just irrigate it enough

to try to keep it alive,

but it seems like you know,

it's been exceptionally dry

and it seems like you

know the grass is,

it's struggling to stay green,

but the dandelions

are very green.

So I think part

of it too might be

that the dandelions are

really noticeable this fall.

- That they are, thank you.

From Bozeman, this person

uses a product called

natural horticultural

vinegar on bindweed.

He says it works for him.

Is this organic and will high

acidic products like this one

work on similar weeds?

Open it up to whoever

wants to talk about it.

- Yeah well, I can

take a stab at that.

So vinegar or acetic acid,

it is a an organic

natural herbicide.

It acts, it's a

contact herbicide.

So it will kill the vegetation

that it comes in contact with,

but it won't necessarily

be translocated

or moved around in the

plant's vascular system

or move down into the root.

So it is effective.

You have to make repeated

applications, however.

So thinking back to the

question we had from Whitefish

and the you know, the

gardeners that wanted

to control bindweed organically,

you could use an

application of something

like this product that

the viewer's mentioning,

something that's vinegar based,

but you will have to make

repeated applications

because it will kill what

it comes in contact with,

but then because it's

a perennial species,

it will grow leaves

again and re-sprout.

- Okay, thank you.

Question for Clain and Jamie

and whoever wants to address it.

What kind of organic

fertilizers work

and what can they

use in their lawn

as an organic fertilizer?

I'll jump in here.

I do not know what

it is, but my family

and I have gone to certified

organic lawn treatments

and we were stunned at

what a difference it made,

not only is the grass softer,

but we've also noticed a

reduced amount of pests

on our fruit trees.

Just really

dramatically different,

so Clain can answer more

about what the

composition might be.

- Yeah, yeah the main ones are,

there's so many out

there, but they're blends

of different products from

compost teas to blood meals,

bone meals and the

effectiveness is

probably unfortunately gonna be

a little bit trial and error

unless you can find somebody

who's done some research on them

and probably the rates are a

little bit trial and error.

So there's a lot of products.

The one thing that I would

probably do a little math on

and I can help you

with the math is

how much nutrient is

actually going down

'cause sometimes the

products are recommended

at fairly low rates and

don't have much nutrients

and in that case, you

might not see much

of a benefit to your lawn.

So really, really

look and you can use

some of our mock guides even

written for conventional lawns

to see about how much

nutrients lawns need

and then just make sure that

that your lawn is getting that

with the organic product.

- And I would say in our case

we use a commercial service.

So I'm assuming that you know,

they're experienced

with lawns in our area.

- All right, thank you.

Got several more questions

I'd like to get to.

One from Mary here.

They would like to know

what the winter crop

this fall looks like.

Has there been very

much of it seeded yet?

It's been fairly dry.

- It's been pretty dry, but

quite a few people have gotten

in the ground too.

So I think it looks

pretty good for winter.

We let better.

- Yeah, that's true.

From Powler, Jamie.

This person has

considered switching to

organic agriculture,

but is worried about

the market places.

Are there contracts

available for organic crops?

- Yeah, there are

contracts available.

I would assume we're talking

dry land grain, Powler,

then yeah, there are contracts.

You know, if you look on

the back of select boxes

of Annie's Mac and Cheese,

you will see some of our

Montana organic farmers featured

on those boxes and

they had contracts

to grow the grain and the

pulses for that product.

- So I'm gonna ask you Jamie

because I know a fair

number of growers

I've worked with through the

years that have attempted

to go organically and they

go maybe five or six years.

At that point, weeds

just pretty much

take over the crop that

they're trying to grow,

not all of them, but

if they got out back

into production agriculture,

normal agriculture,

how many years would it be

before they could

go back organically?

I mean in other

words, the period time

that you don't use

any pesticides.

- Three years, yeah if

they were in production

and they use chemical

then it's three years.

CRP can actually go in

directly with a year

being able to prove that it

hadn't had chemical on it.

- Okay thank you.

Clain, this person has

the new sodded field.

They would like to know whether

or not they should

fertilize it this fall

and continue to water

it into the fall?

- So by new sodded field

or new sodded lawn?

- [Jack] Newly sodded lawn, yes.

- Oh okay, and should

they fertilize it?

- [Jack] Yes.

- Is the question.

You know a lot of

times sodded farms do

a very good

aggressive job I think

with their fertilization.

So there might be

fertilizer right there

in that root zone.

They might not need very

much to get that crop

or that grass to spring.

I think the more important thing

with new sod is ample water

and I would probably lean

towards not fertilizing,

but open to your

opinion too Jack.

- Okay, I agree, I

think you're right.

Mary from Helena, this

person has a seven

to eight-year-old juniper

in a grove of junipers.

They are about 20, 25 feet high.

One juniper has suddenly

in about two weeks

dried up and died.

Any idea what might

be causing this

and in your opinion,

are the other neighboring

junipers at risk?

- Oh that's a tough one.

We're gonna need some

more information.

It could have been a trauma,

it could have been

a lot of things, so.

- Root girdling will do that

for a short period of time,

but Clain, interesting

question here from Haver.

Are soils and organic

systems healthier compared

to conventional systems?

- Oh yeah, that's a

really hard question.

There are a number of studies

that have compared organic

to conventional, depends partly

what you what you analyze for.

One of the things that I

think is super important

to analyze when you were

talking about soil health

is soil organic

matter and at least

based on a few studies

we've done here at MSU,

we sometimes, we often

don't see big differences

in organic matter

across a fence line.

The advantage that the

conventional farmer has is

that he or she is not tilling

and we know that helps

build organic matter.

Advantage the

organic farmer has is

they often add something

like a cover crop,

sometimes add manure

and so I think that's

why the two kind of

balance each other out

and there's not big differences

in soil organic matter,

but you'd have to look at

all the different varieties

of soil health parameters

from biological,

chemical and physical and again,

there's trade-offs

between organic tilled

that has some advantages

from the organic side,

crop rotation side and

then there's advantages

to the no-till side.

So a very difficult

question to answer.

- I agree with you entirely.

Jamie, this person

has a small garden

and he's been treating

it organically for

about five years.

He's somewhat interested

in joining the MOA

as we call an organization.

How do they go about doing that?

- Oh my goodness, well

you can visit our website

and you can actually get

your membership online

and we have very

affordable memberships,

or you can contact me too

and I can directly send a pdf

that if they wanna print off

and not do that online, yeah.

Our website or contact me,

and I'm available

from that website.

- Yeah roughly how many members

does the organization

currently have?

- We have over 200

members and again,

they are range from

consumers to handlers

to producers and

again, the wide range.

We have buyers, so yeah,

and it's a very warm

and welcoming group.

Our researchers and I

think our cell folks

can agree with that.

- Okay thank you, Jane for you.

A Glendive caller has

some dandelion advice.

She spreads pelletized

lawn lime on the plants

and says it works

great, your opinion.

- I have never heard of

that, but you know what?

Her experience is valuable.

- I've not heard of it either,

but a caller from Lewistown

would like to know

which of the organic

manure animal fertilizers

is highest in nitrogen?

So Clain, I suspect

that's yours.

- Chicken manure would

be would be the highest.

Horse manure would be the lowest

and then probably sheep and

goat are second, third highest.

I would guess deer is

about fourth in there.

A lot of those numbers

you can find online,

but chicken manure nitrogen

wise is quite a bit higher

than the others.

- You can burn gardens

with chicken manure,

no doubt about that.

- Compost it first if you can.

- Yeah, okay.

We're getting down on time

Jane, but here's a quick one.

Is Horry alyssum obnoxious weed

and the best control method.

- Yes it is a

state noxious weed.

There's a variety of herbicides,

you can hand pull, you can mow.

Keep it from going to

seed because that's

how it reproduces.

It does not reproduce

vegetatively

and there's an extension

bulletin on Corialism,

so check it out.

- It's really become a

rather widespread weed

here in the Gallatin Valley.

- It has, yeah.

- Okay, folks let me thank

the panel, especially Jamie.

Jamie had a couple

calls from Missoula

saying you did a great job.

Thank you for joining

us this evening.

Next week we're going to have

Shannon Brent from Bismarck.

She's executive director

of the Northern Pulse

Growers Association.

Should be fun, you'll

learn a lot about peas,

lentils, what to do with

them, how we grow them.

So forth and so on.

Again, thank everybody

for watching.

Mary thanks for being

in the studio with me.

Everyone, have a good

night, see you next week.

Take care, bye.

(country music)

- [Narrator] For more

information and resources,

visit montanapbs.org/AGlive.

(country music)

Montana AG Live is made possible

by the Montana Department

of Agriculture,

The MSU Extension Service,

The MSU AG Experiment Stations

of the College of Agriculture,

The Montana Wheat

and Barley Committee,

The Montana Bankers Association,

Cashman Nursery and Landscaping,

The Gallatin Gardeners Club

and The Rocky Mountain

Certified Crop Advisor Program.

(country music)