>>> GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."
I'M JENNA FLANAGAN.
LIKE MANY PERFORMING ARTS, THE THEATER WORLD HAS STRUGGLED WITH A LACK OF DIVERSITY.
THE INDUSTRY HAS PLEDGED TO CHANGE THAT, BUT THE FACT REMAINS THAT THEATERS CONTINUE TO BE A PREDOMINANTLY WHITE SPACE.
JOINING ME IS SOMEONE WHO'S HOPING TO DIVERSIFY THE THEATER WORLD BY SHARING HIS OWN EXPERIENCE AS A SUCCESSFUL DIRECTOR ON STAGE AND TELEVISION.
FOR TWO DECADES, SHELDON EPPS WAS THE ARTISTIC DIRECTOR OF THE RENOWNED PASADENA PLAYHOUSE IN CALIFORNIA.
HE HAS DIRECTED ON AND OFF BROADWAY AND ALL OVER AMERICA AND IN LONDON, AND HAS A NUMBER OF BIG TV CREDITS TO HIS NAME.
HE CURRENTLY SERVES AS SENIOR ARTISTIC ADVISER AT THE HISTORIC FORD'S THEATRE IN WASHINGTON, D.C. HIS NEW MEMOIR IS CALLED "MY OWN DIRECTIONS: A BLACK MAN'S JOURNEY IN THE AMERICAN THEATRE".
AND HE JOINS ME NOW.
WELCOME, SHELDON.
IT IS GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON "METROFOCUS."
>> THANK YOU.
IT'S GOOD TO BE HERE.
THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.
>> I JUST SHARED WITH OUR AUDIENCE A LITTLE BIT OF YOUR CV, YOUR HISTORY IN THEATER, BUT CAN YOU GIVE THE AUDIENCE JUST A SENSE OF WHAT YOUR EXPERIENCE WAS LIKE COMING INTO THE THEATER WORLD AS A -- NOT JUST A MAN OF COLOR, BUT SPECIFICALLY A BLACK MAN.
>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE TO SAY THAT I'M REALLY FORTUNATE TO HAVE HAD A WONDERFUL CAREER, AS YOU JUST QUOTED.
WORKING ON BROAD WAY, OFF BROADWAY, IN LONDON, JAPAN, ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, AND BEEN WORKING WITH TWO WONDERFUL THEATERS ON THE ARTISTIC STAFF.
BUT THAT HASN'T BEEN WITHOUT GREAT CHALLENGES AND OBSTACLES.
MANY OF THEM RACIAL.
OTHERS, AS WELL.
BUT MANY CHALLENGES BASED ON BEING A BLACK MAN IN THE AMERICAN THEATER.
AND BEING ONE OF THE FIRST AND SOMETIMES ONE OF THE ONLY TO ACHIEVE CERTAIN POSITIONS IN MAJOR THEATERS.
>> WELL, THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS I'M ALWAYS ASKING MY GUESTS TO EXPAND ON, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THEIR EXPERIENCE AS A BLACK MAN.
FOR EXAMPLE, BEING AS I UNDERSTAND IT YOU ARE ARTISTIC DIRECTOR AT THE PASADENA PLAYHOUSE, PASADENA ISN'T NECESSARILY THE MOST DIVERSE COMMUNITY, AT LEAST ESPECIALLY WHEN IT WOULD COME TO ITS THEATER GOING AND THEATER-SUPPORTING COMMUNITY.
WHAT WAS YOUR EXPERIENCE LIKE COMING INTO THAT ORGANIZATION?
>> WELL, I'M GOING TO ANSWER BY DISAGREEING WITH YOU A LITTLE BIT.
>> OKAY.
>> I'M TELLING YOU THAT THE CITY OF PASADENA IS VERY, VERY DIVERSE AND VERY MULTIETHNIC.
AND WHEN I STARTED AT PASADENA PLAYHOUSE AS ARTISTIC DIRECTOR, THE AUDIENCE AT THE THEATER WAS ALMOST IF NOT ENTIRELY WHITE.
SO IT WAS THAT CONTRADICTION THAT REALLY KIND OF GOT ME GOING AND GOT ME INSTIGATED TO MAKE CHANGES AT THE THEATER BECAUSE I FELT THE THEATER AND ITS PROGRAMMING AND, IN FACT, EVERYTHING ABOUT THE ORGANIZATION SHOULD REFLECT THE DIVERSITY OF THE COMMUNITY OF PASADENA, AND CERTAINLY THE CITY OF GREATER LOS ANGELES BECAUSE IT IS A LOS ANGELES THEATER.
AND EVEN BEYOND THAT, SHOULD REFLECT THE DIVERSITY OF OUR COUNTRY WHICH IT WAS NOT AT THE TIME THAT I STARTED.
SO IT WAS A MAJOR CHANGE TO THE ORGANIZATION.
FIRST OF ALL, I WAS A MAJOR CHANGE TO THE ORGANIZATION.
THEN THE PROGRAMMING AND THE DIVERSITY ON STAGE AND OFF, NOT ONLY ON THE STAGE BUT IN THE AUDIENCES WAS A REAL TASK.
A REAL -- A REAL MISSION, SHALL WE SAY.
>> WELL, JUST TO GIVE, AGAIN, A BETTER SENSE, WHAT WERE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU WENT ABOUT AS ARTISTIC DIRECTOR TO CREATE MORE DIVERSITY NOT JUST ON STAGE BUT PERHAPS TO ATTRACT A MORE DIVERSE AUDIENCE?
>> WELL, I THINK THEATERS OFTEN MAKE A MISTAKE OF GOING BY THE MODEL IF WE BUILD IT THEY WILL COME.
YOU DO HAVE TO BUILD IT.
YOU DO HAVE TO INCLUDE PROGRAMMING THAT'S GOING TO -- THAT'S GOING TO ATTRACT AND BE APPEALING TO AUDIENCES OF COLOR, TO YOUNGER AUDIENCES, TO NEW AUDIENCES, THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT.
BUT BEYOND THAT, YOU HAVE TO GO AFTER WAYS OF MARKETING TO THOSE AUDIENCE THAT'S PERHAPS YOU'D NOT USED BEFORE.
WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT AT MANY OF THESE THEATERS BLACK AUDIENCES IN PARTICULAR, BUT AUDIENCES OF COLOR WERE NOT WELCOME INSIDE THE THEATER.
SO THE FIRST THING THAT YOU HAVE TO DO IS TO CREATE A SINCERE SENSE OF WELCOME AND BELONGING TO THIS THEATER HOME.
THAT INVOLVES NOT JUST SITTING IN YOUR THEATER WAITING FOR PEOPLE TO COME, BUT GOING OUT TO THE COMMUNITY, GOING OUT TO ORGANIZATIONS, TO SCHOOLS, THAT FRATERNITIES, TO JACK AND JILLS, ALL OF THOSE ORGANIZATIONS THAT YOU CAN APPEAL TO TO GET THE AUDIENCE THAT YOU WANT.
>> AND WHAT WAS THE REACTION OF THE LET'S SAY ESTABLISHED AUDIENCE AND THE ESTABLISHMENT WITHIN THE PASADENA PLAYHOUSE?
WAS THIS A CHANGE THAT PEOPLE WERE WELCOME TO, OR SOMETIMES AS WE HAVE SEEN WHEN CHANGE COMES PARTICULARLY CHANGE THAT INVOLVES A RACIAL DEMOGRAPHIC, PERHAPS CLASS DEMOGRAPHICS, PEOPLE CAN SOMETIMES GET A LITTLE UNCOMFORTABLE.
>> YEAH.
NO, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
I WOULD SAY THAT IT WAS A THIRD, A THIRD, AND A THIRD.
ABOUT A THIRD OF THE AUDIENCE AND THE CONSTITUENCY OF THE THEATER REALLY EMBRACED THAT MISSION RIGHT AWAY.
THEY WERE DOWN WITH IT SO TO SPEAK, AND READY -- READY FOR THAT CHANGE, EAGER FOR THAT CHANGE.
A THIRD WAS KIND OF SKEPTICAL LIKE WHAT'S THIS BLACK GUY GOING TO DO, HOW'S OUR THEATER GOING TO CHANGE, IS IT GOING TO BECOME AN ALL-BLACK THEATER COMPANY, THOSE KIND OF QUESTIONS.
EVENTUALLY MOST OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE WON OVER.
THEN QUITE HONESTLY THERE WAS A THIRD THAT RESISTED IT OR FLED RIGHT AWAY BECAUSE I CERTAINLY MADE IT CLEAR THAT I WAS NOT GOING TO CHANGE THIS MISSION.
SO IF BEING AROUND PEOPLE OF COLOR, BEING AROUND PEOPLE WHO WERE DIFFERENT THAN YOU WAS A PROBLEM, THEN YOU WERE GOING TO -- YOU WERE GOING TO HAVE TO FIND ANOTHER THEATER HOME BECAUSE THIS MISSION WAS GOING TO BE INTACT FOR AS LONG AS I WAS THERE.
>> AND SEVERAL TIMES IN YOUR BOOK YOU MENTIONED THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING THE FIRST OR THE ONLY.
FIRST OF ALL CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT THAT IS LIKE WHEN YOU WALK INTO THE ROOM AND YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON WHO CARRIES YOUR HISTORY, YOUR UNIQUE EXPERIENCE, AND ALSO YOUR RACIAL IDENTITY?
>> WELL, IT'S A SORT OF DUALITY ABOUT THAT EXPERIENCE.
THERE'S CERTAINLY SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE IN THAT.
IT'S A KIND OF A TRIUMPH, I SUPPOSE, TO HAVE SOMEONE BE THE FIRST.
MR. OBAMA CAN TELL US THAT.
BUT YOU KNOW, AS MUCH AS IT IS REASON FOR CELEBRATION, IT IS A TREMENDOUS BURDEN.
YOU KNOW, YOU ARE BEING LOOKED AT IN A WAY THAT IS DIFFERENT THAN PREVIOUS LEADERS.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE SUSPICIOUS OF HOW YOU GOT THERE, IF YOU DESERVE TO BE THERE.
AND THERE ARE PEOPLE, FRANKLY, WHO ARE WAITING FOR YOU TO FAIL SO THAT YOU CAN GET OUT OF THERE, YOU KNOW, SO THAT THIS UNFORTUNATE ACCIDENT, HOWEVER IT HAPPENED, CAN BE CORRECTED.
I ALSO SAY YOU HAVE TO DO THE JOB, AND THEN AS A PERSON OF COLOR YOU HAVE TO PROVE THAT YOU CAN DO THE JOB.
WHICH IS CERTAINLY AN EXTRA BURDEN TO CARRY.
AND THE OTHER BURDEN THAT YOU CARRY IS THAT YOU'RE NOT JUST REPRESENTING YOURSELF, YOU ARE REPRESENTING YOUR RACE.
YOU KNOW, YOU'RE BEING LOOKED AT AS ONE OF THE FIRST TO SEE WHETHER PEOPLE CAN SAY, WELL, WE TRIED, BUT -- WE KNEW THEY WEREN'T UP TO IT.
SO YOU'RE PROVING THAT YOU CAN DO IT BOTH FOR YOURSELF BUT REALLY FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR WHO WILL FOLLOW YOU.
AND THAT'S -- THIS A LOT TO BEAR, I WILL SAY.
>> IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU SEE HAS CHANGED IN THE INDUSTRY?
LIKE IS THAT SOMETHING THAT WAS LIKE OKAY, THAT WAS THEN, BUT NOW IT'S NOT LIKE THAT, OR IS THAT STILL SOMETHING WHERE THERE'S STILL PEOPLE WHO IF THEY'RE NOT THE FIRST, THEY'RE THE ONLY PERSON IN THE ROOM?
>> YEAH.
NUMERICALLY IT HAS CHANGED, AND THAT'S CERTAINLY HELPFUL.
YOU KNOW, THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANOTHER TIME WHEN THERE IS ONLY ONE BLACK ARTISTIC DIRECTOR OF A MAJOR ORGANIZATION.
THERE ARE MANY, MANY MEN AND WOMEN OF COLOR LEADING MAJOR ORGANIZATIONS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, ALL OVER THE WORLD, AND THAT'S A WONDERFUL THING.
THE SUSPICION IS STILL THERE.
I TALK TO MANY OF THE YOUNGER LEADERS OF COLOR NOW, AND THEY HAVE THE SAME -- THE SAME FEELING ABOUT HAVING TO PROVE THEMSELVES, HAVING TO OVERCOME SUSPICIONS AND THE SAME ADVERSITY THAT I FACED.
IT'S A LITTLE EASIER, BUT IT'S NOT THE SMOOTH ROAD THAT ONE WOULD HOPE IT WOULD BE BY THIS POINT.
>> YOU KNOW, SOME OF OUR VIEWERS MIGHT BE SURPRISED TO HEAR SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE SHARING WITH US SIMPLY BECAUSE THE THEATER WORLD HAS BEEN A PLACE THAT'S ALWAYS PRIDED ITSELF ON ITS DIVERSITY AND ITS ACCEPTANCE OF ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE.
AND I'M WONDERING IS THERE A DISCONNECT BETWEEN WHAT PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THE INDUSTRY AND HOW IT ACTUALLY WORKS?
>> I THINK SO.
I REFER TO THE DARK LITTLE SECRET OF THE AMERICAN THEATER IN MY BOOK.
SUPPOSEDLY THE THEATER IS A LIBERAL INSTITUTION, OPEN HEARTED, OPEN MINDED, BUT IF THAT WAS TRUE, I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE FIRST AND ONE OF THE ONLY.
SO YEAH, THERE IS A DICHOTOMY BETWEEN THE PERCEPTION OF THE ARTS AS A COMPLETELY OPEN FIELD AND THE FACT THAT VERY REAL RACIAL TENSIONS EXISTS ON EVERY LEVEL THEN AND NOW.
THEY'VE CHANGED, IT'S GOTTEN BETTER, AND WE HAVE TO CELEBRATE THE FACT THAT IT'S GOTTEN BETTER.
BUT THOSE RACIAL TENSIONS CERTAINLY STILL DO EXIST AND NEED MORE ENERGY AND MORE EFFORT TO GET BEYOND THEM.
>> AND WHEN YOU SAY IT'S GOTTEN BETTER, IS THAT JUST IN THE NUMBER OF THE TYPES OF PRODUCTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN PUT ON, PERHAPS THE PEOPLE THAT ARE HIRED IN LEADERSHIP POSITIONS LIKE YOURSELF BY DIFFERENT THEATERS, WHEN YOU SAY THERE'S BEEN PROGRESS, WHAT EXACTLY DOES THAT MEAN?
>> ALL OF THE THINGS THAT YOU MENTIONED.
CERTAINLY WE'RE SEEING MUCH MORE PARTICIPATION BY ARTISTS OF COLOR IN PRODUCTIONS AS DIRECTORS, AS WRITERS.
WE ARE SEEING THE BEGINNING OF THE CHANGE IN THE AUDIENCES.
HOWEVER, I WILL SAY THAT I CAN STILL GO TO THEATERS EVEN IN NEW YORK CITY AND BE THE ONLY BLACK PERSON IN THE AUDIENCE FOR CERTAIN PRODUCTIONS.
SO WHERE THERE'S ROOM FOR CHANGE THERE.
AND THERE'S CERTAINLY ROOM FOR CHANGE IN THE LEADERSHIP POSITIONS.
THOUGH THERE ARE MANY MORE LEADERS OF COLOR NOW THAN THERE WERE 20 YEARS AGO.
IT'S STILL BY PERCENTAGE A VERY LOW NUMBER, AND CERTAINLY WHEN YOU GO INTO THE AREA OF FILM AND TELEVISION AND PEOPLE RUNNING NETWORKS AND RUNNING STUDIOS AND HAVING THE ABILITY TO GREEN LIGHT A PROJECT, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE -- THE NUMBER OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE PEOPLE OF COLOR IS STILL WOEFUL.
WE NEED MORE -- MORE PEOPLE IN POSITIONS OF POWER TO BE ABLE TO SAY YES, LET'S DO THIS PROJECT SO THAT MORE PEOPLE OF COLOR CAN BE EMPLOYED IN THOSE PROJECTS.
>> WELL, WE'VE ONLY GOT ABOUT 30 SECONDS LEFT, BUT WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE -- AGAIN, SPECIFICALLY A PERSON OF COLOR, WHO WANTS TO BUILD A CAREER IN THEATER?
>> I WOULD TAKE A SHIFT OF THE TITLE OF MY BOOK WHICH IS "MY OWN DIRECTIONS," I DON'T THINK ANYBODY SHOULD FOLLOW MY DIRECTIONS, BUT YOU SHOULD FOLLOW YOUR OWN DIRECTIONS.
FIND AND FOLLOW YOUR OWN DIRECTIONS.
DON'T LET ANYBODY DEFINE YOUR PATH.
DON'T LET ANYBODY RESTRICT YOUR PATH.
AS WE CELEBRATE DR. KING, HAVE YOUR DREAM, HAVE A BIG DREAM, BE AMBITIOUS, BE BOLD, BE PASSIONATE, AND GO AFTER IT WITH EVERY PART OF YOUR BEING.
AND YOU'LL MAKE YOUR DREAM COME TRUE.
>> ALL RIGHT.
ONE, SHELDON EPPS, I WANT TO THANK YOU SO MUCH NOT ONLY FOR SHARING YEAR IPICK CAREER JOURNEY WITH US, BUT ALSO FOR SHARING YOUR BOOK, "MY OWN DIRECTIONS: A BLACK MAN'S JOURNEY IN THE AMERICAN THEATRE."
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON "METROFOCUS."
>> THANK YOU.
I'VE ENJOYED TALKING TO YOU.
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