>>> GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."
I'M JENNA FLANAGAN.
HE ONLY SERVED ONE TERM, BUT PRESIDENT JAMES EARL CARTER KNOWN TO THE NATION AS JIMMY CARTER CREATED A LAST IMPACT THAT TRAN SKRENDED AMERICAN POLITICS.
HE SERVED FROM 1977 TO 1981, WHEN THE NATION WAS IN THE THROWS OF AN ENERGY CRISIS.
A RECESSION, AND RISING INFLATION.
HE ALSO SOUGHT TO NEGOTIATE LOCAL CONFLICTS BETWEEN EGYPT AND PALESTINE, RETURNING THE PANAMA CANAL TO PANAMA, A NUCLEAR ARMS TREATY WITH RUSSIA AS WELL AS A HOSTAGE CRISIS IN IRAN.
WHILE HE LOST TO RONALD REAGAN, HIS ENDURING LEGACY CAME THROUGH HIS WORK FOR HABITAT FOR HUMANITY, THAT PROVIDES HOMES AND ACCESS TO CLEAN WATER FOR LOW INCOME PEOPLE.
CARTER AND HIS WIFE ROSALYNN HAVE BEEN SUPPORTERS AND CONSTRUCTION VOLUNTEERS FOR DECADES, AND THEIR FIRST PROJECT WAS HERE IN NEW YORK CITY.
JOINING ME NOW TO TALK ABOUT FORMER PRESIDENT JIMMY CARTER AND HIS LEGACY IS RICK SHENKMAN, A HISTORIAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, AND AUTHOR OF POLITICAL ANIMALS, HOW OUR STONE AGE BRAIN GETS IN THE WAY OF SMART POLITICS.
WELCOME BACK TO "METROFOCUS," RICK.
>> GLAD TO BE HERE.
>> FOR THOSE OF US PERHAPS WHO ARE MY AGE AND WERE INFANTS DURING THE CARTER ADMINISTRATION OR WEREN'T EVEN BORN YET, SO FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT HAVE FORGOTTEN BECAUSE POLITICS MOVES AT SUCH WARP SPEED NOW, CAN YOU TAKE US BACK TO THE MID '70s, THE 76 CAMPAIGN AND '77 INAUGURATION, WHAT WAS POLITICS LIKE?
>> VERY DIFFERENT FROM POLITICS TODAY.
TODAY WE'RE HIGHLY POLARIZED.
YOU'VE GOT REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS NOT EVEN WANTING TO HAVE THEIR CHILDREN MARRY EACH OTHER.
THAT'S HOW POLARIZED WE ARE.
BACK IN THE 1970s, RICHARD NIXON TRIED TO POLARIZE A COUNTRY THAT WAS HIS GAMBIT FOR GAINING POWER AND KEEPING POWER.
IT ALL COLLAPSED WITH WATERGATE.
BY THE TIME HE LEFT IN 1974, HIS APPROVAL WAITING WAS DOWN 23%.
COMPARE THAT WITH DONALD TRUMP RIGHT NOW.
HE'S IN THE HIGH 30s, MAYBE MID 40s.
IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT COUNTRY TODAY THAN IT WAS BACK THEN.
PEOPLE WERE JUST CRAVING A GOOD PRESIDENT, AN HONEST MAN IN OFFICE.
THEY WANTED A TRANSPARENT GOVERNMENT.
AFTER WATERGATE PEOPLE HAD GROWN VERY CYNICAL AND TURNED TOWARDS JIMMY CARTER THIS, PEANUT FARMER THAT CAME OUT OF NOWHERE AND SAID, THIS GUY HAS A NICE SMILE, SEEMS HONEST.
WE'RE GOING TO PUT HIM IN THE WHITE HOUSE.
WHICH IT'S LIKE A FREAK ACCIDENT OF AMERICAN HISTORY.
NEVER IN OUR HISTORY -- WITH ONE EXCEPTION, GROVER CLEVELAND AT THE END OF THE 19th CENTURY, DID WE HAVE A PRESIDENT WITH AS LITTLE POLITICAL EXPERIENCE AS FEW OFFICES UNDER HIS BELT, AS JIMMY CARTER.
HE WAS A ONE-TERM GOVERNOR OF GEORGIA, A RELATIVELY SMALL STATE, AND SUDDENLY HE'S THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, THE MOST POWERFUL MAN ON THE PLANET.
WOW.
>> WOW INDEED.
BUT GIVEN ALL THAT THEN, WHAT WERE THOSE FIRST 100 DAYS LIKE?
BECAUSE OF COURSE EVERYTHING THAT WE HEAR NOW IS THAT SETS THE TONE FOR THE ENTIRE PRESIDENCY.
WHAT WAS IT THAT CARTER TRIED TO OR DID ACCOMPLISH IN THOSE FIRST 100 DAYS?
>> WELL, AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
EVER SINCE FDR AND THE NEW DEAL WHERE HE HAD A BRILLIANT 100 DAYS, PASSED LEGISLATION EVERY TWO OR THREE DAYS, MONUMENTAL, CHANGED THE ECONOMY, CHANGED AMERICAN SOCIETY.
JIMMY CARTER TRIED.
HE PROPOSED AN ENERGY BILL THAT WAS REALLY GOING TO REVOLUTIONIZE THE AMERICAN ECONOMY, AND HE SAID, I'M GOING TO GET THIS DONE IN THREE MONTHS.
BECAUSE HE HAD IT IN THE BACK OF HIS MIND, HIS 100-DAY MARKER.
HE NEVER SHOULD HAVE MADE THAT RIDICULOUS PROMISE.
THIS WAS HIGHLY COMPLICATED LEGISLATION, AND IT TOOK HIM TWO YEARS TO FINALLY GET IT THROUGH CONGRESS.
HE REALLY GOT NOTHING DONE.
SENT OVER TO THE CONGRESS A BUNCH OF PIECES.
EVERYTHING GOT BURIED EXCEPT THEY GAVE HIM ONE THING.
THEY SAID, YOU WANT TO REORGANIZE THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH TO SUIT YOUR NEEDS, YOU CAN DO THAT, WE'LL HELP YOU WITH THAT.
THAT'S FINE.
BUT ON ALL THE BIG ITEMS THEY SAID, NO, NO, NO, NO.
TOOK HIM TWO YEARS, AND THE RESULTING ENERGY LEGISLATION WAS VERY FAR DIFFERENT FROM WHAT IT WAS WHEN HE PROPOSED IT.
THE U.S. SENATE JUST STOPPED IT AFTER IT WOULD PASS THE HOUSE IS SAY, WE DON'T LIKE THIS AT ALL AND MADE A MILLION CHANGES.
IT TURNED OUT TO BE HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT.
AND THIS IS THE PARADOX OF JIMMY CARTER.
IF YOU GO THROUGH AT THE END OF HIS FOUR YEARS, HIS LIST OF ACCOMPLISHMENTS, THEY'RE ENORMOUS.
HE HAD A VERY CONSEQUENTIAL PRESIDENCY.
WE CAN START TICKING OFF JUST AS ENERGY LEGISLATION -- THINK ABOUT THIS.
WHEN YOU GO TO BUY A NEW CAR OR GO TO A USED CAR, THERE'S A STICKER ON THE CAR WINDOW WHICH TELLS YOU HOW MANY MILES PER GALLON.
THAT'S BECAUSE OF JIMMY CARTER.
WE HAD HAD THIS ENERGY CRISIS WHERE THE SAUDIS WERE INCREASING DRAMATICALLY THE PRICE OF OIL THAT LED US TO BE A COUNTRY INSTEAD OF BEING OIL INDEPENDENT WE NOW WERE SLAVES TO THE SAUDIS AND OTHER OIL COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD, AND WE HAD TO CONSERVE, HAD TO SAVE MONEY.
JIMMY CARTER PUT IN POLICE THIS REQUIREMENT THAT SAID TO DETROIT, HEY, WE WANT TO HAVE THE LEGISLATION THAT'S GOING TO GET AMERICANS TO SLOW DOWN IN THEIR DRIVING, SO THEY LOWERED THE MILES THAT YOU COULD -- THE SPEED LIMIT.
YOU COULD GO ONLY 55.
AND THEY SAID, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THIS MILES PER GALLON.
AND IT REALLY TREMENDOUSLY CHANGED THE AUTOMOBILE INDUSTRY.
I CAN GO ON, BUT LET'S GO FOR YOUR QUESTIONS.
[ LAUGHTER ] >> THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH HAVING A HISTORIAN ON.
>> ONCE I POKE THE BEAR, THERE'S NO -- >> YEAH, IT'S A FLOOD.
IT'S A HOOVER DAM THAT'S RELEASED.
>> WITH EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID, YOU LAID OUT THE ENERGY PLAN, WHICH I THINK NOW CONSIDERING HOW ENERGY CONSCIOUS A LOT OF AMERICANS ARE, THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING TO KNOW.
YOU WERE SAYING THERE'S ALSO SO MANY OTHER SUCCESSES.
SO MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WHY DOES AT LEAST POP CULTURE HISTORY LOOK BACK ON HIS PRESIDENCY AS A FAILURE?
>> YEAH, EXACTLY.
LET ME JUST TICK OFF REALLY QUICKLY SOME OF THE SUCCESSES, OKAY?
WE HAD A TREATY WITH THE SOVIET UNION, THE USSR, SALT 2, REGULATE NUCLEAR ARMS.
HE HAD A TREATY TO GIVE PANAMA CANAL TO THE PANAMANIANS, WHICH SAVED US FROM PROBABLY A GUERILLA WAR DOWN IN CENTRAL AMERICA, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN A COLOSSAL MISTAKE.
THREE AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, HE GOT A MIDDLE EAST PEACE AGREEMENT, A TREATY BETWEEN EGYPT AND ISRAEL ENDING THE WAR OF 30 YEARS.
WELL, THAT'S JUST THE BEGINNING OF HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS.
ANY PRESIDENT HAD ALL THOSE ACCOMPLISHMENTS YOU WOULD WONDER, WHY THE HECK ISN'T HE REMEMBERED AS ONE OF OUR GREAT PRESIDENTS.
HERE'S THE REASON.
ONE, INFLATION WAS OUT OF CONTROL.
14% AT ONE POINT.
14%!
OH, MY GOSH, EXACTLY.
>> TERRIBLE.
>> THAT'S TERRIBLE.
AND THEN UNEMPLOYMENT WAS 8.7% AT ONE POINT.
YOU COMBINE THOSE NUMBERS AND YOU HAVE A MISERY INDEX OF OVER 20%.
AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WERE JUST RICOCHETTING BACK AND FORTH.
WE'RE IN A RECESSION.
WE'VE GOT INFLATION.
THOSE TWO THINGS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE, AND NOW WE HAVE BOTH OF THEM.
SO IT SEEMED LIKE THE PRESIDENT COULD NOT GAIN CONTROL OVER THE ECONOMY, AND THE ECONOMY IS ALMOST ALWAYS THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE FOR THE AMERICAN VOTER WHEN THEY GO INTO THE BALLOT BOX SOME THERE'S THAT.
BUT BEYOND THAT, HE HAD A STRUCTURAL PROBLEM, A POLITICAL PROBLEM.
HE'S THE LAST DEMOCRAT TO WIN THE SOUTH.
FOR 100 YEARS, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAD A LOCK ON THE SOUTHERN VOTE IN NATIONAL ELECTIONS.
AND THAT WAS THEIR BASE.
LIKE WE TALK ABOUT DONALD TRUMP HAVING HIS BASE.
THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAD THE SOUTH AS THEIR BASE.
BUT IN 1965, LYNDON JOHNSON SIGNED THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT, WHICH GAVE BLACK PEOPLE THE RIGHT TO VOTE.
WELL, ALL OF A SUDDEN WHITE PEOPLE IN THE SOUTH WHO HAD ALWAYS IDENTIFIED AS DEMOCRATS -- LYNDON JOHNSON WAS A DEMOCRAT -- THEY SAID, WOW, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY DOESN'T SEEM TO BE MY PARTY NOW, IT'S THE BLACK PEOPLE'S PARTY, AND THEY VERY QUICKLY BEGAN LEAVING THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND BECOMING REPUBLICANS.
>> MM-HMM.
>> THIS FINALLY HIT WITH JIMMY CARTER.
ONE OF THE REASONS HE WAS SELECTED AS DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE WAS BECAUSE HE WAS FROM THE SOUTH, AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY KNEW THEY HAD A PROBLEM WITH THE SOUTH.
THEY THOUGHT, OKAY, WE PUT A SOUTHERNER UP ON THE TICKET, THAT'S GOING TO HELP US WIN BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO KEEP OUR BASE AS WELL AS HAVE THE NORTHEAST AND OTHER STATES IN THE MIDWEST.
WELL, THAT WORKED TO GET JIMMY CARTER ELECTED, BUT ONCE HE HAD ALL THE OTHER PROBLEM OF INFLATION AND RECESSION, HE LOST THE SOUTHERN WHITE VOTE, EVEN THOUGH HE WAS FROM THE SOUTH, HE WAS AN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN, HE WAS THE MOST RELIGIOUS PRESIDENT OF MAYBE IN OUR HISTORY, CERTAINLY OF THE 20th CENTURY.
AND YET HE LOST THE SUPPORT OF THOSE WHITE SOUTHERNERS.
SO GOING INTO THE 1980 ELECTION TO FINALLY ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, GOING INTO THAT ELECTION, HE HAD A DEMOCRATIC PARTY THAT WAS BREAKING AT THE SEAMS, COULDN'T COUNT ON THE SOUTH ANYMORE.
THE LEFT-WINGERS WHO HAD HAD HIGH HOPES FOR THIS PRESIDENCY -- IT WAS THE FIRST PRESIDENCY BY A DEMOCRAT SINCE LYNDON JOHNSON, SO THEY HAD HIGH HOPES THEY WERE GOING TO HAVE ALL KINDS OF LEGISLATION COME OUT OF THIS CONGRESS.
THEY WANTED NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE, THEY WANTED A RAISE IN THE MINIMUM WAGE.
WELL HE DIDN'T DELIVER ON ANY PROBLEMS SO HE HAD A PROBLEM WITH THE LEFT WING, HAD A PROBLEM WITH WHITE SOUTHERNERS, HAD INFLATION AND A RECESSION.
IT'S A MIRACLE HE DID AS WELL IN THE ELECTION OF 1980.
IN TERMS OF THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE, RONALD REAGAN WINS IN PACT P PRACTICALLY A LANDSLIDE, BUT IN TERMS OF THE NATIONAL VOTE, IT WAS CLOSE.
>> ESPECIALLY THAT ELECTION IN 1980, SEEMS AS IF THE IRAN HOSTAGE ISSUE WAS AT THE TOP OF PEOPLE'S MINDS AND DID HIM IN.
HOW DO YOU SEE THAT?
>> I DIDN'T EVEN MENTION THAT.
I OF COURSE SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED IT.
I JUST HAD SUCH A LONG LIST OF OTHER THINGS.
I FORGOT ABOUT THAT.
THIS IS -- FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T REMEMBER THIS, THIS IS FOR 440 DAYS WE HAD 52 HOSTAGES IN OUR EMBASSY, OUR EMBASSY STAFF AND THE AMBASSADOR WHO WERE HELD HOSTAGE BY IRAN AFTER THE IRANIANS KICKS OUT THE SHAH AND INSTALLED KHOMEINI AS THE HEAD OF THE IRANIAN REGIME.
I WON'T CALL IT A GOVERNMENT AT THAT POINT.
IT WAS A REGIME.
WE WELL, THIS WAS A DISASTER.
AT THE BEGINNING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AS THEY ALWAYS DO IN A CRISIS, RALLIED AROUND THEIR PRESIDENT, AND HIS POLL NUMBERS SHOT WAY THROUGH THE ROOF.
BUT AS IT DRAGGED ON AND ON, AND HE STAGED AN ATTEMPT -- A HAIR-BRAINED ATTEMPT, IN MY OPINION, TO TRY TO RESCUE THESE HOSTAGES, AND IT JUST BLEW UP IN HIS FACE.
EIGHT PEOPLE DIED IN THE ABORTED RESCUE ATTEMPT.
A BUNCH OF HELICOPTERS AND AIRCRAFT WERE LOST.
AND BASICALLY THE UNITED STATES -- THE WORLD'S LEADING SUPERPOWER, FOUND THAT IT COULDN'T EVEN PROTECT ITS 52 HOSTAGES, SO THIS THING DRAGGED ON AND ON AND ON.
HE NEVER DID GET THEM OUT.
FINALLY, ONE MINUTE AFTER RONALD REAGAN BECAME PRESIDENT, THE IRANIANS DECIDED TO RELEASE THE HOSTAGES.
SO THAT WAS A BIG DEAL, AND THAT LOOMS LARGE IN THE CULTURAL LANDSCAPE.
BUT THE REASON I WAS EMPHASIZING THE POLITICS A MOMENT AGO IS REALLY THAT'S THE BACKDROP FOR WHY HIS PRESIDENCY IS REGARDED AS A FAILURE, BECAUSE HE COULDN'T KEEP HIS OWN PARTY TOGETHER.
IF YOU CAN'T KEEP YOUR OWN PARTY TOGETHER, WELL, THEN, THE OTHER PARTY IS GOING TO JUST THROW KNIVES AT YOU AND YOU CAN'T DEFEND YOURSELF.
HOW DID DONALD TRUMP WITH ALL OF HIS PROBLEMS -- FOR YEAR AFTER YEAR, HE HAD ENORMOUS PROBLEMS -- TWO IMPEACHMENTS -- YET THE REPUBLICAN PARTY LARGELY REMAINED UNITED BEHIND HIM.
THAT'S WHY THE ELECTION A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO WASN'T JUST A COMPLETE BLOWOUT.
IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN A BLOWOUT GIVEN HIS RECORD, BUT IT WASN'T BECAUSE HE HAD HIS PARTY BEHIND HIM.
THAT'S WHAT'S REALLY KEY IN POLITICS -- AMERICAN POLITICS.
>> GIVEN ALL OF THAT, WHY -- YES, HOW DID IT BECOME THAT WHEN A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK OF JIMMY CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT CARTER, THEY THINK OF HIS WORK AFTER HE WAS PRESIDENT.
HIS LEGACY SEEMS TO BE MORE ABOUT THE DECADES AFTER HE LEFT OFFICE.
AND OF COURSE LIKE I MENTIONED, HIS WORK FOR HABITAT FOR HUMANITY AND BOLSTERING OF HUMAN RIGHTS AROUND THE WORLD.
>> EXACTLY.
WELL, THESE ARE HUGE LEGACIES.
I USED TO ALWAYS JOKE WHEN I'D BE ASKED ON TV ABOUT CARTER, I'D SAY, IF CARTER COULD HAVE GONE FROM BEING ELECTED PRESIDENT, DAY ONE, AND GONE INTO POST PRESIDENCY, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN REGARDED AS ONE OF THE GREAT FIGURES IN HISTORY.
THE PROBLEM IS HE HAD A PROBLEMATIC FOUR YEARS.
THERE ARE TOO MANY NEGATIVES FOR HIM TO GO DOWN AS A GREAT PRESIDENT.
PLUS, GREAT PRESIDENTS ALWAYS GET RE-ELECTED, AND SO THAT W WAS -- FAILING RE-ELECTION, THAT WAS GOING TO BE A HUGE DING ON HIS REPUTATION.
WHAT HAPPENS POST PRESIDENCY?
SUDDENLY THE MAN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE REMEMBERED ELECTING BACK IN 1976, THIS GOOD CHRISTIAN, HONEST, DOWN TO EARTH POPULIST, WELL, HE RESURFACES.
ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS HE DOES IS HE JOINS A LITTLE KNOWN, OBSCURE CHRISTIAN CHARITY FROM AMERICAS, GEORGIA, JUST DOWN THE ROAD FROM PLAINS, GEORGIA, WHERE HE GREW UP, AND THEY'RE BUILDING HOMES FOR HUMANITY.
BUILDING HOMES FOR PEOPLE REALLY IN NEED OF A HOME.
THEY WOULD TURN THESE HOMES OVER TO THESE PEOPLE FOR FREE, NO CHARGE.
WELL, JIMMY CARTER DECIDES, YOU KNOW, I REALLY LIKE THIS GROUP.
AND HE STARTS JOINING THEM FOR A WEEKEND EVERY MONTH.
AND HE STARTS BUILDING THESE HOMES.
HE'S OUT THERE IN HIS OVERALLS AND HE'S HAMMERING, AND ROSALYNN HIS WIFE IS OUT THERE AS WELL, WORKING WITH THE PLUMBING.
AND SOON, HABITAT FOR HUMANITY GOES FROM BEING THIS TINY LITTLE CHARITY IN AN OBSCURE CORNER OF GEORGIA TO HAVING A PRESENCE IN SOME 70 COUNTRIES.
JIMMY CARTER MADE THAT HAPPEN.
AND THAT'S JUST ONE OF HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS A POST PRESIDENT.
HE ALSO, AS YOU SAY, MADE HUMAN RIGHTS A HUGE ISSUE.
THIS HAD BEEN A BIG ISSUE FOR HIM WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT, AND WHEN HE ESTABLISHED HIS LIBRARY AND THE CARTER CENTER, HE HAD IT DEVOTED TO CONFLICT RESOLUTION.
AND WHEN THERE WERE ELECTIONS AROUND THE WORLD, PARTICULARLY IN THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES, WHERE OFTEN THE ELECTIONS WERE NOT HONEST, SHALL WE SAY, CARTER COULD SEND A TEAM IN, THEY WOULD MONITOR THE BALLOT BOXES, THEY WOULD HELP ASSURE THE VOTERS THAT IT WAS AN HONEST ELECTION.
AND IF IT WASN'T HONEST, THE CARTER CENTER WOULD COME OUT WITH A REPORT SAYING WHAT WAS WRONG WITH IT.
WELL, THAT'S A HUGE ACCOMPLISHMENT THAT HE WAS ABLE TO HELP OTHER PEOPLE HAVE FREE ELECTIONS.
AND OF COURSE DOESN'T THAT APPEAL TO US AS AMERICANS?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> RICK, I'M SO SORRY TO CUT YOU OFF, BUT WE'VE RUN OUT OF TIME.
I THINK THAT'S SUCH AN EXCELLENT AND POSITIVE NOTE TO LEAVE OUR CONVERSATION ON.
WE LOOK FORWARD TO HAVING YOU BACK TO GIVE US MORE INSIGHT AND CONTEXT.
I THINK CONTEXT IS KEY HERE IN UNDERSTANDING OUR AMERICAN PRESIDENTS.
>> THANK YOU, IT IS.
>> ABSOLUTELY, THANK YOU.