Speaker 1: I'm Jim Forsyth.
San Antonio is a fast growing
fast moving community with
something new happening almost
every day.
That's why each week I go on the
record with one of the
newsmakers who is driving this
change and this growth?
And then joining us.
Join us for the conversation a
lively discussion with the
reporters and community leaders
about the issues that matter.
So joining us now as we go on
the record and now Jim
foresight.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome
again to on the record a weekly
unrehearsed discussion of the
opportunities and challenges
that face us today here in San
Antonio and south Texas.
Speaker 1: I'm Jim Forsyth Alamo
Plaza is the beating emotional
and historic heart of our
community and has been for
centuries.
Any time attempts are made to
make changes at Alamo Plaza are
bound to be controversial.
They have been in the past and
they are again today.
Speaker 2: And joining us today
on the record to discuss some of
these proposed changes is since
it Bevin the president of the
San Antonio Conservation
Society.
Thank you very much for joining
us today out on the record.
Thank you for having me.
The Conservation Society has
made a serious proposal and will
present that proposal to the
Texas Historical Commission
tomorrow to essentially include
the Woolworth building as part
of the grand plan for Alamo
Plaza renovation.
Could you explain why the
Woolworth Building is important
in this plan?
Speaker 1: Well let me digress
just one moment and go back to
2017 when they had the Alamo
master plan it wasn't called the
interpretive plan yet.
And at that point you had
everyone from Nurenberg Scully
and Trevino who said that they
wanted to repurpose the
Woolworth Building and the
Crockett block and the palace
the whole block.
So we thought that would be put
it was moving forward.
2018 with a series of meetings.
Those buildings were not part of
the presentation and we had a
private presentation in some of
the renderings.
They were there and some not a
lot of alluding to the fact that
they would not be there.
And that started a concern.
So this was sort of a a
progression.
So we were very concerned about
those buildings not being there
and not being repurposed.
Obviously everything else about
the plan as I had mentioned
previously can be redone under
changed or whatever but not the
demolition of the building in
the meanwhile we begin to gather
more information about the
Woolworth Building and the civil
rights movement and March 16
1960 and the extreme importance
of that.
With the tourism that's
associated with African-American
trials and of history.
We felt like this was very
important to include when the
Woolworth building was put on
the national register for
historic places.
It did not include any of the
civil rights movement and we
felt like this was an
opportunity to include that.
So one of the things that we
will do tomorrow is to present
that information going forward
with the state antiquities
landmark.
So it was it was very important
we also felt like it needed to
be presented by.
More than just the Conservation
Society.
We had all of these people that
had a vested interest in the
civil rights movement.
So the coalition was formed and
we have worked together to do
this.
One of the things that I
discovered going through some
files back about two months ago
was that the 1994 Alamo master
plan very similar to today's
plan also talked about a world
class museum but it wanted to
spotlight the history of Alamo
Plaza.
Not to stop with the battle of
1836.
Thought that was validation as
well.
Why not include that if you want
people to come?
Why be so specific?
I'm not I'm not ignoring the
fact that the battle is
important.
I'm a member of the D.A..
I certainly understand that.
But why not expand so that you
have some reference to all of
the history along the plaza.
Speaker 2: Talk to us a little
bit about what happened that the
Woolworth Building that gives it
an iconic status at the civil
rights movement.
Speaker 1: Well in and there had
been some mention about it was
not the first to integrate and
that was corpus.
But that was not part of the
movement.
That was back in the 50s.
So there were a group of people
who got together and they
proposed this.
So it was going to the the
peaceful desegregation of the
lunch counter was not Joyce just
going to be Woolworth but it was
going to be most of your lunch
counters in downtown and the
surrounding areas.
What made it important with the
Woolworth was its prominent
position so March 16 1960?
Not only was it peaceful which
doesn't get you any press
obviously but it was a peaceful
desegregation.
Very voluntary on both part and
so the importance of that corner
is significant because you have
a bus transfer that was there
that still is there but it was
important is where a lot of high
school kids came to transfer to
go to their high schools.
People were there all the time.
The stories about their
wonderful potato donuts is just
remarkable.
But it was significant in its
prominence on the corner.
So yes you could have a museum
somewhere else but won't do that
if you're really looking at a
world class museum.
And we have several in
repurposed buildings around San
Antonio.
Why not have it there?
Speaker 2: And this happened at
a time when other attempts to
integrate public facilities were
being met with violence.
We're being met with very very
serious situations.
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
And this was not.
And that as I mentioned this is
why you don't see a lot of press
involved with that.
But it was significant.
And when you talk to the people
who experienced the segregation
prior to that.
Speaker 2: This was significant.
So what's your plan for the
Woolworth Building.
What would you like to see done
with it?
Speaker 1: Well we had the
renderings that we presented at
the press conference and I want
to say also that you know I
serve at the pleasure of the
board and our board is the one
who gives the directives.
So back in October they felt
that because the buildings had
been left out they were bought
set apart from the rest of the
plan and the lease.
And because they were owned by
the states our board made a
motion for us to hire a
structural engineer and an
architect to show how these
buildings can be used because it
was important that they not be
demolished.
Why add to the landfill when
we're trying to be green?
So that was the directive.
So we've worked with Alamo
architects all along.
And it was not meant to be any
big secret.
It's just it was a direction of
the board.
Speaker 2: We're accountable to
the board not to the city.
So.
I was so impressed we took some
of the ideas that were presented
by the Alamo trust and there are
designers back at the beginning
last summer.
They had already talked about an
arcade.
There is a walkway back behind
there.
So why not utilize that.
They've talked about the west
wall.
We were also looking at the
lunch counter.
So it's how can you combine
this?
How can you utilize the
buildings?
Scar may us back several years
ago we talked about having a
great injury much like I'm I'm
presuming much like the witty
and so if you gave up.
The least significant of the
three which is the palace and
you created a grand entry there
then and you combined which I
thought Irby did such a
wonderful job of having that
arcade go through the buildings
and the arcade follows the
original west wall of the
basement which is interesting.
It does and you have a teaser.
So from what we understand with
the interpretive plan people
will be allowed on the plaza.
They will come in not at the
South Gate but closer to the
museum.
I understand that.
And so there it's supposed to be
free for them to come in not to
see the museum.
But then why not have those
teasers as they're walking
through there.
Just see little previews of what
they might see when they're in
the.
Then my understanding is the
main museum would then be built
to the west of the existing
Woolworth building up against
the Houston street parking
garage.
Exactly.
And so that's free space that
you can do whatever you want.
And because the Woolworth
building is pretty comparable is
a very solid building but it is
compromise from from its origin.
So you can do whatever you want
inside.
So you're really not limited.
You're not having like the clock
it is very different.
You you have all of the walls
you already have the office
building and so it looks like
we're not sure but it looks like
from the renderings that they
all along.
They they pretty much decided
they would keep the Crockett
building but not the other two.
So that was our compromise based
on all the renderings that we
had been shown throughout last
summer and the fall.
Now the Conservation Society
also has a position on the
cenotaph which continues to be
an emotional part of Alamo Plaza
where does the Conservation
Society stand on that?
Two years ago our board was very
split.
Some people felt like that
should not be our main focus.
Others were you know highly
engaged in the conversation.
Then last year we had I believe
it was last fall.
We they brought another motion
to the floor during one of our
board meetings and it was not
overwhelming but it certainly
was the majority in favor of
keeping this a tent where it
where it is.
It's another reason why we had
made a decision to and we'd
notified the council and the
mayor with our letter of support
for keeping it in place.
However we felt like because
that's not going to be
demolished only moved if it gets
moved that the focus needs to be
particularly on the Woolworth
which is most at risk.
Speaker 1: Susan Bevan is
president of the San Antonio
Conservation Society.
Thank you very much for joining
us on on the record and good
luck.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: Ross Ramsey executive
editor of The Texas Tribune
joins us from Austin as he does
every week during the 20 19
session of the Texas
legislature.
And Ross as we head toward the
final weeks of the session we
saw debacle this week that I
think baffled even longtime
legislative observers like
yourself with the governor
lieutenant governor and speaker
of the House essentially being
blown out of the water on their
tax swap proposal.
What happened to that and how
does this weaken the position of
the leadership moving into the
end of the session and beyond?
Well you know I don't know that
it weakened them.
It's embarrassing and it's
probably not damaging to their
main goals.
But you know it's an interesting
deal they came out and they said
let's raise sales taxes by a
penny in order to get property
tax payers the property tax cuts
that they want it would have
been enough money to lower
school property taxes by 15 or
20 cents somewhere in that
range.
But you are asking a Republican
legislature to pass a sales tax
increase of 16 percent it would
have made the sales tax in Texas
one of the highest in the
country and conservative tax
conservative legislators and
politicians balked at that.
They shouldn't have been
surprised but bulk they did it
turns out you can't lead
legislators where they don't
want to follow.
So the tax swap is out.
But the main components that the
governor and the lieutenant
governor and speaker laid out as
their priorities at the
beginning of the session are
still in place the school
finance reforms that they
proposed some education changes
that they've made and a proposed
requirement that voters approve
any local property tax increase
above three and a half percent
is still moving along.
So there are initial package is
fine this late April Hail Mary
pass for sales tax for property
tax swap appears to be dead.
And those interesting Democratic
State Representative Donna
Howard said it was like the
world turned upside down when
the Democrats all got together
for a news conference to
criticize a tax at Grace that
was being supported by
Republicans.
That's how bizarre the
legislative session got this
past week.
Now that this is dead how do we
pay for school finance across
the board?
Teacher pay raises.
Well you know all of that was
paid for the comptroller came in
before the session began.
Glenn Hager and said that sales
taxes are good and that the
state legislature would have
about 9 billion dollars more to
start with this time than it did
two years ago.
And that's enough money to do a
lot of what the governor
lieutenant governor and speaker
proposed in the first place.
The part that's not funded now
that they don't have the money
for is cutting local property
taxes.
There was some conversation
about ditching the education
stuff and just doing the
property tax stuff.
But that's not what they
promised and that's that's not
apparently the direction that
they're going to take here.
What is the most emotional
debates I've ever heard on the
floor of the Senate this week
when the Senate approved a bill
that would require that voters
or a supermajority of the
controlling board have to
approve the removal of Edie as
they put it?
Monuments that have been
standing for 25 years or more we
all doubt that they were
referring to Confederate
monuments.
Some very very emotional
comments from the two
African-American senators.
Tell us about how that came
about it where that goes.
Well you know this was pushed by
some of the conservative members
of the Senate who were upset
with or have been upset with
what's been going on with
monuments for the last you know
whatever however long this is
it's an emotional argument it's
an openly racial argument and
it's a conversation about you
know whether you're going to
honor the losers of the Civil
War and in ways that are
offensive to the people who won
and to the minorities over whom
that war was fought?
And when you put that on the
floor of the Senate you know
there was a little bit of
incredulity from the
African-American senators and
some of the other Democrats the
Republicans were you know saying
we need to protect history and
heritage.
And it's a familiar fight but
when it's out in the open like
that and when they're talking
directly to each other about
that this open community fight
becomes a very very personal
conversation they had to calm
down a couple of times and say
you know hey members don't make
this personal.
Now where does this go?
Because an amendment was tacked
on in the Senate that will
essentially prevent the Cenotaph
at Alamo Plaza for being moved
as part of the 400 million
dollar Alamo reimagining project
that could scuttle the plan
entirely.
Will this fly at the house do
you think?
You know I don't know that the
House wants to get into this
fight we're in the last couple
of weeks all the big pieces are
on the table and they've got
plenty to fight about without
getting sidetracked.
And if they view this as a
sidetrack they've got an easy
excuse for saying we just don't
want to do that.
Lieutenant Governor Patrick
threw his weight around this
week when he came out and flatly
said I will not support the
measure that had been approved
in the house fairly strongly to
cut the punishment for marijuana
possession down to a traffic
ticket.
Where do we stand with marijuana
with medical marijuana with
hemp?
There are a lot of cannabis
related bills on the agenda this
year.
Eddie I'm going to get through.
I think they're going to have a
hard time in the Senate.
They seem to have a you know
they seem to be allergic to
marijuana bills right now.
A couple of medical cannabis
bills would have increased the
pretty tight use.
Texas allows now for CBD oils in
those things.
The decriminalization
legislation I think is clearly
dead.
Ok.
So are we going to have a
special session.
Are we going to get this done by
the?
I'm I'm.
I'm a really lousy teller of
future but I don't think so.
Ross Ramsey is the executive
editor of The Texas Tribune.
Speaker 2: As always thank you
for joining us on the record.
Five.
Speaker 1: Gilbert Garcia is the
metro columnist for The San
Antonio Express News SANFORD
Nowlan the editor in chief of
the San Antonio Current both
friends of the program.
Thank you both for joining us
again today.
Obviously we had one election
last weekend.
We have another election coming
up next month.
One question I like to throw out
to get things started is.
Every.
Incumbent all seven incumbents
who ran for re-election won
overwhelmingly some from Shirley
Gonzalez to Clayton Perry with
sixty five percent of the vote
among multiple challengers.
Such an incredible feat.
This was a wave that Ron
Nierenberg should have run but
he didn't.
I mean why did he not grab this
wave?
Why did people go to the polls
and say I love my council
member?
I don't like my mayor.
Speaker 2: Well it's interesting
I mentioned rebirth of her
brother Trevino in District 1
had seven or eight challengers
and won easily.
And you know the one of the
things that the Brock House
campaign would cite as something
that helped them was the chick
fillet issue rather Trevino was
really the person who introduced
the amendment and was the most
up front about the fact that it
was about LG GBC T issues and it
didn't hurt him in his district.
Of course it plays differently
in different parts of the city.
I think one of the things that
has been clear about Mayor
Nierenberg is that for whatever
reason maybe because he takes
these kind of nuanced views and
sort of triangulate the issues
he has a way of maybe maybe
irritating people on both ends
of the political spectrum and I
think paid sick leave is a great
example of that where he voted
for it the city passed it last
summer he made it clear that
when he when he voted for it he
wasn't happy about it.
And then last month he declined
to support Councilman Sal
Daniels pushed to serve to
defend the paid sick leave
ordinance.
So he upset people in the right
by voting for it and he upset
people in the left by not
defending it.
And so I think that lack of
enthusiasm I think it really
hurt him a lot.
Speaker 1: Sanford Why do you
think the mayor did didn't when
like all of his other
compatriots at city council a
lot of it to also hinges on
turnout and if you look at the
numbers you mentioned District 1
were Trevino won handedly
handily Nierenberg blue Brock
House out of the water in
District 1.
Sixty five percent of the vote.
That was ten thousand votes cast
whereas you look at District 9
in District 10 which went to
Brock House traditionally whiter
older more conservative
districts.
Voter turnout was very high.
And it has traditionally been
very high in District 9 there
were 18000 votes cast.
That's almost twice as many as
cast votes in District 1.
And I think you know anecdotally
I talked to some folks.
Who I know to be Nierenberg
supporters on Saturday and said
Are you going out to vote?
And they said no I think I think
the mayor has got this in the
bag.
And I said Well you know maybe a
little closer than you think.
So I think he's had a difficult
time energizing people the way
he did last time I remember
going to his his watch party
last time and there was a
palpable excitement in the air.
And I think a lot of that had to
do with a certain number of
progressives Progressive's
viewing this as the viewing that
as the first election after the
presidential win by Donald Trump
and wanting to send a message
locally that this is not
something that they were willing
to support this time around.
I think it just been a little
different people had been a
little more indifferent.
Gilbert what do both Mayor
Nierenberg and Councilman
broadcast need to do in the next
month to win on June 8?
Well I think.
Speaker 2: Miriam number I think
is a political progressive who's
sort of a little bit sheepish
about it and I think he needs to
sort of sort of own his
political views.
And I think you know one of the
things that we saw was Texas
Organizing Project which I think
has been a really powerful force
in organizing voter turnout.
And in the last two years or so
they stayed on the fence on
this.
They may commit in the runoff
but I think that he really needs
to to to galvanize support
there.
One of the things that
fascinated me was District for
Southwest.
That's Rachel Donahue's
district.
That's a that's a Democratic
district a district that if we
if we look at this as a Democrat
versus Republican contest though
they're nonpartisan technically.
You would've thought that
would've been a really good
district for Ron Norberg.
Greg Brock House did very well
there.
And so there hasn't been the
kind of outreach that we saw
from from the No campaign that
he really went out to the
community south side west side
two years ago in a way that I
don't think he's done this time.
Speaker 1: Sanford what has to
be done and also what is
broadcast have to do?
Well I think there are two
things that Nierenberg needs to
do and one of them is I think he
needs to.
Speaker 2: Realize that being
the smartest guy in the room is
not necessarily going to get you
elected.
I think in the debates it was
very clear that he he felt
passionately about these issues
and put it put forth some big
issues big ideas.
Speaker 1: But that's voters are
not as immersed in the policy
stuff as we are around this
table necessarily.
And so very often it's this gut
instinct about you know that
pothole on my street still
hasn't been fixed.
I don't feel like I've gotten a
raise at my jobs or the economy
is not very good.
And I think I think Nierenberg
needs to deliver.
An explanation why why some of
his policies like this equity
based budget or this
transportation plan he's put
forward how that's going to
affect these these voters lives
on a very personal level.
Speaker 2: He needs to be less
Mr. Spock and more James
Tiberius and along those lines I
mean I've heard and I've even
heard this from it from local
Democrats who think supported
him saying things like well you
know he didn't stand up to
Sheryl Scully he's not tough
enough.
And again whether that's fair or
unfair.
That I think kind of gets back
to the point Sanford made which
is that sometimes people operate
on a gut level just this feeling
that you know he's not he's not
standing up or he's not showing
enough toughness or whatever.
And sometimes it comes down to
those kinds of things.
Speaker 1: What would you
anticipate Mike Brock?
Could I also before we get to
that I also think Ron Nierenberg
needs to engage on a personal
level with?
With female voters because I
think he's got a clear advantage
there when you look at at Brock
House's the allegations of
spousal abuse against him the
reports on his record of failing
to pay child support.
If you look at the video of him.
Getting into it with two female
city council members Etihad
burger over his treatment of
Aimee hard Burger where she was
going after that sores and see I
think a lot of female voters.
Could look at that and perceive
not just that one of them is
damning but that together that
might establish a pattern that
they don't approve of?
And I think that's something
that especially because some of
the media in this town has been
unwilling to bring it up I
think.
Nierenberg needs to address it
directly and I think he needs to
address it in a manner that
convinces that female voters
that that he he is a providing a
clear alternative to Gray.
So what does broadcast need to
do?
What how should he spend the
next month?
Speaker 2: Well you know a lot
of the the elements are in place
for a victory for him I mean if
you look at the three council
districts that have runoffs
where we should see big turnout
District 6 is his old district.
He did really well there and
should do well there in the
runoff District 4.
He did surprisingly well in the
first round District 2 on the
east side.
He he lost but it was relatively
close.
So I think that I mean his his
campaign looks at it and thinks
if we'd had another week we
maybe we'll take this thing.
They think they ran out of time
and that give him another month
and it's going in their
direction.
And so you know the the elements
are there for him.
I think the real question is
whether people who sat out the
first round because they you
know they.
Were lukewarm about the mayor?
Now look at it re-evaluate and
think they don't want to count
Mayor Brock House and they may
they may decide to vote.
Speaker 1: Sanford broadcasts in
the campaign hit the check fly
issue hard.
I think it probably paid
benefits for him.
That's the kind of thing that
fire people up to vote.
And you've got to get the voters
out to the polls will probably
have another low turnout runoff.
Do you expect him to continue to
ride that horse all the way to
June?
Speaker 2: I think he'll try to.
I although my suspicion is with
the Chick Fillet thing it's
probably reached the.
You know probably reached a
saturation point.
You know I mean I think the way
I see Chick fil A was that was a
way for him to engage
evangelical voters who very
often sit out local elections.
I think you probably saw some
people go out and vote for Brock
House who normally would have.
Waited until 2020 to vote.
And that clearly worked to his
advantage.
How big an advantage remains to
be seen but I think I think for
him to win he needs to continue
doing what he's doing which is
to be a good retail politician?
Speaker 1: He face to face he
really knows how to connect with
people and even people even his
detractors would have to admit
he's you know he's good at that
and Gilbert he's hitting those
lunch bucket issues where Mayor
Nierenberg is out there talking
about climate change in 2050
he's talking about fixing your
pothole road you know all
politics is local as Tip O'Neill
said.
Speaker 2: And it seems like he
handles local politics well and
cutting property taxes now the
the the actual result of what
he's talking about would mean if
the city made a cut in property
tax rates to be very small it
would have a very minuscule
effect really.
Most San Antonio wins but it
resonates.
You know people want to hear a
lot of people are scared about
their their property taxes and
they want to hear that.
So yeah I do think I do think it
resonates.
Speaker 1: But you know if
people look at the details they
might question some of some of
these things and I think that
points to Greenberg's failure to
connect with voters because if
you talk about the potholes and
the lack of infrastructure and
sidewalks and certain
neighborhoods you know the
equity lens that Nurenberg keeps
talking about is a way to start
to fix that stuff by bringing
money into districts that have
long been neglected.
And I don't think Nierenberg has
has used that as an effective
enough counter when Brickhouse
brings up.
We've got to do something about
these sidewalks.
We've got to get back to basics.
I think that should be no
Greenberg's answer and I think
she should do better at
explaining that to voters.
Speaker 2: It'll be an
interesting run up no doubt
about it.
Gilbert Garcia is the metro
columnist from The San Antonio
Express News SANFORD Dowlan
editor in chief of the San
Antonio Current.
Thank you for joining us and
thank you for joining us this
week on on the record.
And keep in mind you can listen
to this show on your way to work
in the morning check out the
podcast at Taylor N. dawg.