>> David: A spy in the

spotlight at senate

confirmation hearings.

Can Claudia Tenney hold on to

her seat in Congress, and

Eric Schneiderman resigns

in disgrace.

Stay tuned.

"Ivory Tower" is next.

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♪

>> Good evening.

Welcome to "Ivory Tower."

I'm David Chanatry from Utica

college.

I'm joined tonight by Lisa Dolak

from the College of Law at

Syracuse University, Bob Spitzer

from SUNY Cortland,

Tim Byrnes from Colgate

university and Kristi Anderson

from the Maxwell school at

Syracuse University.

Spies work in the shadows but

yesterday Gina Haspel was in the

spotlight at her confirmation

hearings to be director of the

CIA.

Haspel appears to be uniquely

suited to lead the agency except

for her role running one of the

black sites where detainees were

water boarding and then

destroying the tapes of the

enhanced interrogations.

She pledged not to restart the

programs if confirmed and said

she knows right from wrong.

Lisa, should her role in that

episode be disqualifying to run

the CIA?

I mean her role in that episode

is very concerning I'm concerned

about both things you mentioned,

the role in the black site, the

destruction of evidence pending

investigation but I don't

believe it should be

disqualifying and I do think she

is uniquely suited for the role

and particularly for the time

that we are in, including

because of her expertise on

things like Russia.

She's an expert on Russian and

Russian spies.

And the fact that she is widely

supported by employees and

agents in the CIA and many

former intelligence experts,

including John Brennan, Obama's

CIA chief and that's because of

her qualifications for the job

and because the concern is if

not her, who might Donald Trump

appoint to this post?

And this is what I'm talking

about being in unique times.

I mean I think even if that

weren't the case, honestly, if

we weren't worried about who

Donald Trump might appoint and

given his, you know, tendency to

pick people that are not

qualified to politicize

appointments, and his sort of

antipathy toward intelligence

services, even if we weren't

worried about that, I still

think I would support her

because of her qualifications

and because she said it wouldn't

happen again under her... go she

said she followed her moral

compass and I don't have much

confidence in her moral compass.

The torture regime put in place

by the Obama administration and

not properly litigated by the

Barack Obama is one of the

darkest moments in American

history and what we have now as

Lisa is saying is a soft

consensus like, well, you know,

this is someone we want to have

in charge of the CIA, which

means that what happened before

is sort of basically okay.

And the fact of the matter is

that Gina Haspel is a criminal

and I came with notes today.

This is the 1984 convention

against torture signed by Ronald

Reagan and confirmed by the

United States that which makes

it according to the United

States constitution, the highest

law in the land.

Each state party should take

effective legislative measures

to prevent act of torture in any

territory under this

jurisdiction.

No exceptional circumstances

whatsoever may be invoked as

justification of torture and

order from a superior officer or

public officer play not be the

authority.

If this is not enough, this is

the U.S. criminal code of the

U.S. government.

Whoever attempted to commit

torture should be imprisoned not

more than 20 years.

And a person who conspires to

commit an offense should be

subject to the same penalty.

She is lucky she is not in a

tribunal in the Hague.

The fact that the United States

senate is going to confirm her

to head the CIA is a stain on

American history.

>> I thought the thing that she

said which was most shocking and

I have to say that I do have

some sympathy for Lisa's

position in the sense that she

is a woman, she has come up

through the ranks.

She is not an appointee

President Trump would make.

When she was asked whether she

thought water boarding or

torture was wrong, she said I

don't know if the word was wrong

or moral, she would note answer

that.

She said I can't answer that.

I think it was effective at

getting people who were involved

in 9/11 or whatever...

>> She backed off the

effectiveness line a little bit.

>> She said I don't think we can

say it is effective or not.

She said we got information.

I don't think it is knowable,

she said.

>> We got... I thought she was

saying... the point is that she

wasn't saying it was morally

wrong.

>> She was parsing the words.

Harris pressed her on the

morality.

Let's be perfectly clear.

Torture is appalling,

counterproductive.

It doesn't help you.

That, to me is the bottom line.

>> The bottom line is (all

talking at once)

>> It's a crime.

>> No dispute.

>> Putting criminals in

charge...

>> The problem is that the order

came from the top.

She was a functionary.

It was chain dick Cheney who

leaned on the CIA because they

panicked after 2001.

>> You can't say that a crime

that you committed was ordered

by a higher officer, that's a

violation of international and

national law.

>> I accept all that but we have

accepted and within the United

States we have not done

prosecutions as you pointed out,

as a consequence of all this and

it would have started right at

the top.

So here we are in 2018, and Lisa

has it right.

She has two things-- three

things going for her.

One is that she has been through

this torture stuff and she-- my

sense, for what it's worth, is

that she understands that this

is not useful, okay.

Leaving law aside.

Secondly, she does know the CIA.

Third she knows Russia well.

And that probably is arguably

the most important thing at this

juncture.

And who would we get if she

pulls out from trump?

It's only going to be worse.

Yes, she should be confirmed.

I understand I agree 100% but

it's a long trail that leads

right back to dick Cheney and

she wasn't an independent

functionary who decided on her

own one day she was going to

torture.

>> There was D.O.J. cover for

that.

>> John who sits at berk whether

I law school said they wrote a

memo in which he says torture is

okay.

That was awful.

>> An order from a superior

officer or public authority may

not be invoked as justification

of torture.

When he said water boarding was

not torture, that was nonsense.

Gina Haspel knew that.

She oversaw water boarding which

is a crime.

I keep saying the same thing.

We can talk about her

qualifications and the difficult

moments we are in.

She is a criminal and should be

held accountable.

>> There are dozens and dozens

of criminal in that category.

>> You would be saying that

George W. Bush and dick Cheney

should face...

>> You are darned right they

should.

Sights a stain in American

history and Barack Obama... it

requires a government signatory

investigates and, prosecutes

crimes and Obama didn't do it.

So Obama is guilty under this as

well.

It's an outrage what we have

allowed to happen in this

country.

>> The best we can have because

there will never be the

prosecutions, never, never going

to happen.

The best we can do is remember

the history and never damn do it

again.

>> It is worth pointing out that

senator John McCain last night

released a statement saying that

her, Haspel's refusal to

acknowledge torture's immorality

is disqualifying.

>> And there was a letter from

100 retired military officers

and officials saying they did

not support her nomination

because of the...

>> Look, I commend him for his

consistency on the issue and for

his courage in speaking out.

I'm a little less impressed with

some of what I see as some of

the grandstanding by some of the

Democratic senators, because I

think in some cases, you almost

can hear them... it's almost

like they know she is going to

be confirmed and so it's easy

for them to come out and express

their outrage.

And, you know, among the people

who were complicit in this were

some of the very people who were

read in on this back in... at

the time.

>> Absolutely but they're not

being put in charge of the CIA.

>> I understand that.

>> You think there are people

still in the CIA who

participated in that torture?

>> Of course there are.

>> She knew, bob, she knew that

the faces of those CIA agents on

tore torturing those people that

it's a crime and if their faces

were known they might be

prosecuted internationally and

nationally.

She destroyed evidence.

>> Yes, she did.

(all talking at once)

>> She wrote a memo for her

boss...

>> She was carrying out.

>> And to the White House's

surprise as well.

They didn't know they were going

to destroy the tapes.

Now we do have to move on.

So the 22nd congressional

district that includes Utica,

Binghamton and parts in between,

Madison County, for instance, is

thought to be one of the races

that Democrats have targeted in

this fall's mid term elections.

The Republican incumbent

representative Claudia Tenney

has thrown quite a lot of red

meat to the base and that has

her party concerned she will

lose the seat.

Kristi, will her comments cost

her, in a district that has

generally been considered to be

moderate, moderate-right?

>> I think they may cost her and

one evidence that they may be

already is that there is a Zogby

poll out who has her opponent,

Anthony Brindisi leading her

47-40.

Even by a little bit more when

the undecided were pushed to

make or take a stand.

And Brindisi, interestingly is

continually emphasizing his

willingness to work across the

aisle.

That he has done that in the

Assembly and would do that for

the good of the district and so

on.

Tenney has chosen, and I think

she will stick with it... she

seems very consistent around

this, a kind of appeal to the

base, fairly narrow base way of

campaigning and being, really.

It's interesting because I read

somewhere in an article about

her that a pew center poll had

found that 19% of Republicans

were really angry at the

government.

Now this is down from the number

who are angry at the government

under Obama but way up from

those that are angry at the

government the Obama

administration say.

Tenney and other Republicans

have chosen to both support

trump and support trump in this

way, to kind of channel they

motion of frustration and anger

at the government.

And she does this all the time.

I mean the best example, which I

was just amazed at is when she

said this thing, which you

probably all heard about the

Democrats or mass murderers

tending to be Democrats.

She was criticized by the former

holders of her seat, two

Republicans and a democrat,

bowler and Hannah and when she

was confronted with their

criticism, she referred to all

three of them as swamp creatures

raising their bloody hands out

of their political grave.

I mean that's only going to

appeal to the 19% who is really

angry at everybody, including

their former members of

Congress.

It just seems like a not very

strategic thing.

>> She would certainly double

down.

>> That's exactly it.

Doubling down.

She issued a statement recently

not just a generic statement but

a very strong statement in

support of trump's pulling out

of the Iran nuclear deal.

She is really a mini trump.

It's not just that she is siding

generally in a general way with

Donald Trump and his agenda but

she really mimics his rhetoric

constantly.

And historically that strategy

has worked for her.

She is in the House of

Representatives.

She was elected and reelected

several times in the state

Assembly being pretty hard right

but there are a couple of things

about the Zogby poll and where

she stands right now.

It is pretty unusual for a

challenger to be up about I

seven points over an incumbent

and that does not bode well for

her; however, there is one other

thing about the poll that

provides her with an opening and

that's the fact that roughly

half the people who were polled

said they didn't know anything

about Anthony Brindisi.

He is a blind slate in the minds

of a lot of voters and that

provides her with an opportunity

to define him in her terms in

negative ways to try and drive

down her numbers so that she,

you know, might find a way to

get...

>> Brindisi is the state

representative from the Utica

area so much of the district

never heard of him.

>> She has called him a

socialist and you remember when

he first declared that he was

running, she went after his

father and got all the Italians

in Utica all riled up.

So she hasn't taken up that

opportunity much yet, I don't

think.

You are right...

>> I think you are right.

She hasn't but that's is her one

opening.

>> When she is challenged about

her outrageousness or

trumpiness.

She said I know my district.

I know my people is what she

says.

Polls be damned.

>> But she may well.

It is interesting the contrast

between her and someone like

Katko...

>> Or Richard Hannah.

>> Richard Hannah who was her

predecessor.

But I mean I'm talking about

their presence or tactics to

deal with trump and to find a

path forward in districts that

are, you know, somewhat similar.

They're both...

>> Katko's is more Democratic.

>> When we talked about her two

years ago, I said, I remember

saying well I can see how she

could get elected because she is

so aggressive and that race was

so odd, running against a woman

from Binghamton people didn't

know.

>> And it was...

>> I said at the time, I said I

can't see how she will get

reelected because that district,

she may know the district but I

think she makes stuff up.

When she said she knows the

district better, that means she

talked to her family.

She is completely full of

nonsense but it got her elected

once but I will be very

surprised if she gets reelected

because this red meat Hillary

Clinton should go to jail, mass

murderers are Democrats, et

cetera, etc., I don't see that

playing well in a district that

has a long history of, yes, it's

Republican in terms of

identification, but it's

Republican in the sense of real,

if there are any moderate

Republicans left, the kind who

elected boller and hannah.

>> It's a two candidate race.

She won with 46% of the vote two

years ago.

She has got to get over 50%, she

has to appeal to a greater

degree to moderates, undecided

because in this district there

is a hard core that loves

everything she has to say when

she is sounding like trump but

I don't think that puts you over

50% even in this district.

>> I would say the people of

Hamilton, New York are well

motivated to get her out of

office so she doesn't continue

to stain the name of Colgate

university.

>> Six months is a long time.

>> It is.

>> That's right.

And the district did vote for

President Trump pretty

substantially.

>> Unlike Katko's.

>> Now, New York, New York State

and to an extent national

politics were up ended this week

with the stunning accusations of

assault against now former state

Attorney General Eric

Schneiderman.

He resigned his position hours

after the New Yorkers published

the allegations.

The state legislature will

appoint an interim Attorney

General possibly as soon as next

week.

There has been some reporting

that this has been kind of an

open secret that Schneiderman

had sort of a shady personal

life and that liberals are being

hypocrites for looking the other

way.

Bob Spitzer, that got your

attention.

>> Well, it did.

And that criticism doesn't come

as a surprise.

First Schneiderman was a

complete shock, I think he was

to most people.

Secondly particularly in the

light of how aggressively he has

advanced the idea of legislation

or other legal protections to

women who do come forward to

talk about being harassed and

accosted and everything else.

But we look at the recent

history of these kinds of

scandals and how Democrats

versus Republicans have

responded.

So he... so Schneiderman

resigned within three hours of

the story coming out that

appeared in the New Yorker, a

shocking story by the way, if

you can get through it.

Remember Eliot Spitzer, no

relation.

He was gone-- he was governor,

he was a relation but suddenly

he wasn't... Eliot Spitzer

resigned within a day.

Al Franken out in Minnesota was

gone within a few days.

And those allegations were not

quite as clear cut, I think but

look at primary Republicans,

David vitter, the Republican

senator from Louisiana, he hung

on, he stayed on.

The current governor of

Maryland, a Republican governor

Eric greitens.

>> Missouri.

>> Thank you.

He is adamantly denying

everything and Republican state

legislature is moving ahead with

impeachment.

That's how bad they want him

out.

Rory Moore, Doug Blankenship--

Don Blankenship killed 29 miner

running coal mines in

West Virginia, but a different

kind of scandal but people died

because of his lousy stewardship

of his own coal mine.

Those people pursuing higher

office are all hanging on.

My joke was to a friend of mine

that if Schneiderman had been a

Republican, he would have used

the opportunity of announcing

his resignation to announce his

run for the U.S. Senate if he

had been a Republican.

Maybe the partisan split I'm

describing isn't really there

but if you look at the cases, it

makes me wonder why and I don't

really have a good answer.

I just want to wonder why.

>> Schneiderman is the pinnacle

of hypocrisy, for hip to be, you

know, pushing this, saying he is

going to, you know, prosecute or

look into what the Weinstein

mess and champion of women and

the fact that he was the state's

chief law enforcement officer.

That puts you in a different

position.

I'm not, you know, sort of okay

with all of that litany of

people that you listed but the

people who hold themselves out

and take the job of being the

chief law enforcement officer,

I'm sorry, that puts you in a

different class.

>> Not just enforcing the law

but creating new laws.

He was instrumental in this law

that said choking was, you

know... and he was doing it.

>> While he was doing it.

>> Incredible.

>> It is just jaw dropping.

Really depressing.

The hypocrisy of it that this

litany of misbehavior is so

common among powerful men.

It's depressing.

I say that as a person

interested in politics.

I say that as a man.

I say that as a human being.

The hypocrisy and cruelty of it

is shocking and horrible.

>> I can't get into their heads.

Someone like him who was being

actively hypocritical.

Elliot spitzer, that doesn't

seem so bad.

>> Hooker, big deal.

>> And didn't Schneiderman, and

I think about all these other

guys, you know, Matt Lauer and

all these other guys, didn't

they think it would catch up

with them?

They must have been suffering,

not that I care but.

>> You wonder.

>> Katy said on her show what is

it about New York State politics

and the commentator sitting next

to her talked about the lawless

culture of male entitlement.

>> In Albany specifically.

>> Now that leads us directly to

the fs.

Lisa.

>> Kind of staying on the same

subject.

Town and country gets my f for

inviting Monica Lewinsky to the

summit and then when Bill

Clinton said he would attend,

disinvited Lewinsky.

Even in the me too era, town and

country and too many other

people still don't get that Bill

Clinton abused his power and

privilege and took advantage of

a 24-year-old intern and has yet

to pay the price.

>> Okay.

>> I'm giving an f to George

Mason university and the koch

brothers.

They have been funding faculty

positions at various

universities for many years but

we learned last week actually

that, in fact, they had been

exerting undue influence with

the okay of the leaders of

George Mason university in

Virginia, to actually shape and

manipulate who was accepted and

hired for various faculty

positions.

It's completely wrong.

It violates a fundamental

boundary line about who gets to

work as a faculty members in

various departments, especially

economics departments.

It's a terrible abuse of money

and power.

>> Tim.

>> I never thought I would say

this all these years later.

An f to Oliver north, the new

president of the national rifle

association who said this week

about the Iranian deal, never

believe an Iranian because if

their lips are moving, they're

lying.

I mean what a ridiculous thing

to say about millions of people

but especially by Oliver north

who illegally sold arms to Iran

and criminally lied about it.

Do these people ever go away?

>> An f to nick Mulvaney current

head of the consumer financial

protection bureau who is working

basically to kill his agency.

Since coming into office he has

halted all new investigations,

frozen hiring, stopped data

collection, cut off access to a

consumer complaint.

Payday lenders, Mulvaney has

dropped most of the cases

against these people.

>> And the as Lisa.

>> My a to the Trump

Administration for securing the

release of three prisoners who

had been held by North Korea.

It's hard to imagine the joy

that those people, their

families and friends are

experiencing.

>> I'm giving an a to the fact

that Don blank inship--

blankenship, the former owner of

an avaricious mining company

came in third after poll results

indicated otherwise for the

Republican primary in the U.S.

Senate.

Third is a lot better than

first.

>> Tim.

>> An a to five moderate G.O.P.

house members who have issued a

motion to dismiss to force Paul

Ryan to get a vote on docket to

the floor of the house.

They're not really moderates.

They serve in purple districts

worried about reelection but

they're getting close to forcing

Paul Ryan to bring a DACA vote

to the house.

It will be a small chink in the

Hastert rule and I hope they

succeed.

>> Teacher appreciation week.

So an a to all teachers,

especially those who protest

their declining wages and the

horribly insufficient funding

for education in their state.

They have been successful and we

should be appreciative to all of

them for standing up for quality

education.

>> I want to thank you a

question, Tim because I think

last week I had to give a little

sideline.

We need another one.

The vote on DACA that you are

saying they are trying to force

Paul Ryan to hold the vote house

does it work?

>> If they get a market in the

House of Representatives.

They can force the vote.

The Hastert is he won't bring a

vote to the floor unless a

majority of Republicans are

supporting it.

This is a small group of

Republicans trying to vote with

Democrats to force a vote and

they will all vote to codify

DACA and Ryan will lose.

>> And perhaps the Hastert rule

will...

>> I doubt it but we can hope.

>> Will go away?

>> If they get 20 Republicans,

then the discharge petition

forces that on to the house

despite what the leader...

>> U.S. governance would be

dramatically different if the

House of Representatives

operated by majority rule.

>> Thank you and thanks for

joining us.

For your comments, write to the

address on your screen.

If you would like to view the

show again, you can view it

online at WCNY.org.

I'm David Chanatry.

For all of us at "Ivory Tower,"

have a good night.

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