>> David: A spy in the
spotlight at senate
confirmation hearings.
Can Claudia Tenney hold on to
her seat in Congress, and
Eric Schneiderman resigns
in disgrace.
Stay tuned.
"Ivory Tower" is next.
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>> Good evening.
Welcome to "Ivory Tower."
I'm David Chanatry from Utica
college.
I'm joined tonight by Lisa Dolak
from the College of Law at
Syracuse University, Bob Spitzer
from SUNY Cortland,
Tim Byrnes from Colgate
university and Kristi Anderson
from the Maxwell school at
Syracuse University.
Spies work in the shadows but
yesterday Gina Haspel was in the
spotlight at her confirmation
hearings to be director of the
CIA.
Haspel appears to be uniquely
suited to lead the agency except
for her role running one of the
black sites where detainees were
water boarding and then
destroying the tapes of the
enhanced interrogations.
She pledged not to restart the
programs if confirmed and said
she knows right from wrong.
Lisa, should her role in that
episode be disqualifying to run
the CIA?
I mean her role in that episode
is very concerning I'm concerned
about both things you mentioned,
the role in the black site, the
destruction of evidence pending
investigation but I don't
believe it should be
disqualifying and I do think she
is uniquely suited for the role
and particularly for the time
that we are in, including
because of her expertise on
things like Russia.
She's an expert on Russian and
Russian spies.
And the fact that she is widely
supported by employees and
agents in the CIA and many
former intelligence experts,
including John Brennan, Obama's
CIA chief and that's because of
her qualifications for the job
and because the concern is if
not her, who might Donald Trump
appoint to this post?
And this is what I'm talking
about being in unique times.
I mean I think even if that
weren't the case, honestly, if
we weren't worried about who
Donald Trump might appoint and
given his, you know, tendency to
pick people that are not
qualified to politicize
appointments, and his sort of
antipathy toward intelligence
services, even if we weren't
worried about that, I still
think I would support her
because of her qualifications
and because she said it wouldn't
happen again under her... go she
said she followed her moral
compass and I don't have much
confidence in her moral compass.
The torture regime put in place
by the Obama administration and
not properly litigated by the
Barack Obama is one of the
darkest moments in American
history and what we have now as
Lisa is saying is a soft
consensus like, well, you know,
this is someone we want to have
in charge of the CIA, which
means that what happened before
is sort of basically okay.
And the fact of the matter is
that Gina Haspel is a criminal
and I came with notes today.
This is the 1984 convention
against torture signed by Ronald
Reagan and confirmed by the
United States that which makes
it according to the United
States constitution, the highest
law in the land.
Each state party should take
effective legislative measures
to prevent act of torture in any
territory under this
jurisdiction.
No exceptional circumstances
whatsoever may be invoked as
justification of torture and
order from a superior officer or
public officer play not be the
authority.
If this is not enough, this is
the U.S. criminal code of the
U.S. government.
Whoever attempted to commit
torture should be imprisoned not
more than 20 years.
And a person who conspires to
commit an offense should be
subject to the same penalty.
She is lucky she is not in a
tribunal in the Hague.
The fact that the United States
senate is going to confirm her
to head the CIA is a stain on
American history.
>> I thought the thing that she
said which was most shocking and
I have to say that I do have
some sympathy for Lisa's
position in the sense that she
is a woman, she has come up
through the ranks.
She is not an appointee
President Trump would make.
When she was asked whether she
thought water boarding or
torture was wrong, she said I
don't know if the word was wrong
or moral, she would note answer
that.
She said I can't answer that.
I think it was effective at
getting people who were involved
in 9/11 or whatever...
>> She backed off the
effectiveness line a little bit.
>> She said I don't think we can
say it is effective or not.
She said we got information.
I don't think it is knowable,
she said.
>> We got... I thought she was
saying... the point is that she
wasn't saying it was morally
wrong.
>> She was parsing the words.
Harris pressed her on the
morality.
Let's be perfectly clear.
Torture is appalling,
counterproductive.
It doesn't help you.
That, to me is the bottom line.
>> The bottom line is (all
talking at once)
>> It's a crime.
>> No dispute.
>> Putting criminals in
charge...
>> The problem is that the order
came from the top.
She was a functionary.
It was chain dick Cheney who
leaned on the CIA because they
panicked after 2001.
>> You can't say that a crime
that you committed was ordered
by a higher officer, that's a
violation of international and
national law.
>> I accept all that but we have
accepted and within the United
States we have not done
prosecutions as you pointed out,
as a consequence of all this and
it would have started right at
the top.
So here we are in 2018, and Lisa
has it right.
She has two things-- three
things going for her.
One is that she has been through
this torture stuff and she-- my
sense, for what it's worth, is
that she understands that this
is not useful, okay.
Leaving law aside.
Secondly, she does know the CIA.
Third she knows Russia well.
And that probably is arguably
the most important thing at this
juncture.
And who would we get if she
pulls out from trump?
It's only going to be worse.
Yes, she should be confirmed.
I understand I agree 100% but
it's a long trail that leads
right back to dick Cheney and
she wasn't an independent
functionary who decided on her
own one day she was going to
torture.
>> There was D.O.J. cover for
that.
>> John who sits at berk whether
I law school said they wrote a
memo in which he says torture is
okay.
That was awful.
>> An order from a superior
officer or public authority may
not be invoked as justification
of torture.
When he said water boarding was
not torture, that was nonsense.
Gina Haspel knew that.
She oversaw water boarding which
is a crime.
I keep saying the same thing.
We can talk about her
qualifications and the difficult
moments we are in.
She is a criminal and should be
held accountable.
>> There are dozens and dozens
of criminal in that category.
>> You would be saying that
George W. Bush and dick Cheney
should face...
>> You are darned right they
should.
Sights a stain in American
history and Barack Obama... it
requires a government signatory
investigates and, prosecutes
crimes and Obama didn't do it.
So Obama is guilty under this as
well.
It's an outrage what we have
allowed to happen in this
country.
>> The best we can have because
there will never be the
prosecutions, never, never going
to happen.
The best we can do is remember
the history and never damn do it
again.
>> It is worth pointing out that
senator John McCain last night
released a statement saying that
her, Haspel's refusal to
acknowledge torture's immorality
is disqualifying.
>> And there was a letter from
100 retired military officers
and officials saying they did
not support her nomination
because of the...
>> Look, I commend him for his
consistency on the issue and for
his courage in speaking out.
I'm a little less impressed with
some of what I see as some of
the grandstanding by some of the
Democratic senators, because I
think in some cases, you almost
can hear them... it's almost
like they know she is going to
be confirmed and so it's easy
for them to come out and express
their outrage.
And, you know, among the people
who were complicit in this were
some of the very people who were
read in on this back in... at
the time.
>> Absolutely but they're not
being put in charge of the CIA.
>> I understand that.
>> You think there are people
still in the CIA who
participated in that torture?
>> Of course there are.
>> She knew, bob, she knew that
the faces of those CIA agents on
tore torturing those people that
it's a crime and if their faces
were known they might be
prosecuted internationally and
nationally.
She destroyed evidence.
>> Yes, she did.
(all talking at once)
>> She wrote a memo for her
boss...
>> She was carrying out.
>> And to the White House's
surprise as well.
They didn't know they were going
to destroy the tapes.
Now we do have to move on.
So the 22nd congressional
district that includes Utica,
Binghamton and parts in between,
Madison County, for instance, is
thought to be one of the races
that Democrats have targeted in
this fall's mid term elections.
The Republican incumbent
representative Claudia Tenney
has thrown quite a lot of red
meat to the base and that has
her party concerned she will
lose the seat.
Kristi, will her comments cost
her, in a district that has
generally been considered to be
moderate, moderate-right?
>> I think they may cost her and
one evidence that they may be
already is that there is a Zogby
poll out who has her opponent,
Anthony Brindisi leading her
47-40.
Even by a little bit more when
the undecided were pushed to
make or take a stand.
And Brindisi, interestingly is
continually emphasizing his
willingness to work across the
aisle.
That he has done that in the
Assembly and would do that for
the good of the district and so
on.
Tenney has chosen, and I think
she will stick with it... she
seems very consistent around
this, a kind of appeal to the
base, fairly narrow base way of
campaigning and being, really.
It's interesting because I read
somewhere in an article about
her that a pew center poll had
found that 19% of Republicans
were really angry at the
government.
Now this is down from the number
who are angry at the government
under Obama but way up from
those that are angry at the
government the Obama
administration say.
Tenney and other Republicans
have chosen to both support
trump and support trump in this
way, to kind of channel they
motion of frustration and anger
at the government.
And she does this all the time.
I mean the best example, which I
was just amazed at is when she
said this thing, which you
probably all heard about the
Democrats or mass murderers
tending to be Democrats.
She was criticized by the former
holders of her seat, two
Republicans and a democrat,
bowler and Hannah and when she
was confronted with their
criticism, she referred to all
three of them as swamp creatures
raising their bloody hands out
of their political grave.
I mean that's only going to
appeal to the 19% who is really
angry at everybody, including
their former members of
Congress.
It just seems like a not very
strategic thing.
>> She would certainly double
down.
>> That's exactly it.
Doubling down.
She issued a statement recently
not just a generic statement but
a very strong statement in
support of trump's pulling out
of the Iran nuclear deal.
She is really a mini trump.
It's not just that she is siding
generally in a general way with
Donald Trump and his agenda but
she really mimics his rhetoric
constantly.
And historically that strategy
has worked for her.
She is in the House of
Representatives.
She was elected and reelected
several times in the state
Assembly being pretty hard right
but there are a couple of things
about the Zogby poll and where
she stands right now.
It is pretty unusual for a
challenger to be up about I
seven points over an incumbent
and that does not bode well for
her; however, there is one other
thing about the poll that
provides her with an opening and
that's the fact that roughly
half the people who were polled
said they didn't know anything
about Anthony Brindisi.
He is a blind slate in the minds
of a lot of voters and that
provides her with an opportunity
to define him in her terms in
negative ways to try and drive
down her numbers so that she,
you know, might find a way to
get...
>> Brindisi is the state
representative from the Utica
area so much of the district
never heard of him.
>> She has called him a
socialist and you remember when
he first declared that he was
running, she went after his
father and got all the Italians
in Utica all riled up.
So she hasn't taken up that
opportunity much yet, I don't
think.
You are right...
>> I think you are right.
She hasn't but that's is her one
opening.
>> When she is challenged about
her outrageousness or
trumpiness.
She said I know my district.
I know my people is what she
says.
Polls be damned.
>> But she may well.
It is interesting the contrast
between her and someone like
Katko...
>> Or Richard Hannah.
>> Richard Hannah who was her
predecessor.
But I mean I'm talking about
their presence or tactics to
deal with trump and to find a
path forward in districts that
are, you know, somewhat similar.
They're both...
>> Katko's is more Democratic.
>> When we talked about her two
years ago, I said, I remember
saying well I can see how she
could get elected because she is
so aggressive and that race was
so odd, running against a woman
from Binghamton people didn't
know.
>> And it was...
>> I said at the time, I said I
can't see how she will get
reelected because that district,
she may know the district but I
think she makes stuff up.
When she said she knows the
district better, that means she
talked to her family.
She is completely full of
nonsense but it got her elected
once but I will be very
surprised if she gets reelected
because this red meat Hillary
Clinton should go to jail, mass
murderers are Democrats, et
cetera, etc., I don't see that
playing well in a district that
has a long history of, yes, it's
Republican in terms of
identification, but it's
Republican in the sense of real,
if there are any moderate
Republicans left, the kind who
elected boller and hannah.
>> It's a two candidate race.
She won with 46% of the vote two
years ago.
She has got to get over 50%, she
has to appeal to a greater
degree to moderates, undecided
because in this district there
is a hard core that loves
everything she has to say when
she is sounding like trump but
I don't think that puts you over
50% even in this district.
>> I would say the people of
Hamilton, New York are well
motivated to get her out of
office so she doesn't continue
to stain the name of Colgate
university.
>> Six months is a long time.
>> It is.
>> That's right.
And the district did vote for
President Trump pretty
substantially.
>> Unlike Katko's.
>> Now, New York, New York State
and to an extent national
politics were up ended this week
with the stunning accusations of
assault against now former state
Attorney General Eric
Schneiderman.
He resigned his position hours
after the New Yorkers published
the allegations.
The state legislature will
appoint an interim Attorney
General possibly as soon as next
week.
There has been some reporting
that this has been kind of an
open secret that Schneiderman
had sort of a shady personal
life and that liberals are being
hypocrites for looking the other
way.
Bob Spitzer, that got your
attention.
>> Well, it did.
And that criticism doesn't come
as a surprise.
First Schneiderman was a
complete shock, I think he was
to most people.
Secondly particularly in the
light of how aggressively he has
advanced the idea of legislation
or other legal protections to
women who do come forward to
talk about being harassed and
accosted and everything else.
But we look at the recent
history of these kinds of
scandals and how Democrats
versus Republicans have
responded.
So he... so Schneiderman
resigned within three hours of
the story coming out that
appeared in the New Yorker, a
shocking story by the way, if
you can get through it.
Remember Eliot Spitzer, no
relation.
He was gone-- he was governor,
he was a relation but suddenly
he wasn't... Eliot Spitzer
resigned within a day.
Al Franken out in Minnesota was
gone within a few days.
And those allegations were not
quite as clear cut, I think but
look at primary Republicans,
David vitter, the Republican
senator from Louisiana, he hung
on, he stayed on.
The current governor of
Maryland, a Republican governor
Eric greitens.
>> Missouri.
>> Thank you.
He is adamantly denying
everything and Republican state
legislature is moving ahead with
impeachment.
That's how bad they want him
out.
Rory Moore, Doug Blankenship--
Don Blankenship killed 29 miner
running coal mines in
West Virginia, but a different
kind of scandal but people died
because of his lousy stewardship
of his own coal mine.
Those people pursuing higher
office are all hanging on.
My joke was to a friend of mine
that if Schneiderman had been a
Republican, he would have used
the opportunity of announcing
his resignation to announce his
run for the U.S. Senate if he
had been a Republican.
Maybe the partisan split I'm
describing isn't really there
but if you look at the cases, it
makes me wonder why and I don't
really have a good answer.
I just want to wonder why.
>> Schneiderman is the pinnacle
of hypocrisy, for hip to be, you
know, pushing this, saying he is
going to, you know, prosecute or
look into what the Weinstein
mess and champion of women and
the fact that he was the state's
chief law enforcement officer.
That puts you in a different
position.
I'm not, you know, sort of okay
with all of that litany of
people that you listed but the
people who hold themselves out
and take the job of being the
chief law enforcement officer,
I'm sorry, that puts you in a
different class.
>> Not just enforcing the law
but creating new laws.
He was instrumental in this law
that said choking was, you
know... and he was doing it.
>> While he was doing it.
>> Incredible.
>> It is just jaw dropping.
Really depressing.
The hypocrisy of it that this
litany of misbehavior is so
common among powerful men.
It's depressing.
I say that as a person
interested in politics.
I say that as a man.
I say that as a human being.
The hypocrisy and cruelty of it
is shocking and horrible.
>> I can't get into their heads.
Someone like him who was being
actively hypocritical.
Elliot spitzer, that doesn't
seem so bad.
>> Hooker, big deal.
>> And didn't Schneiderman, and
I think about all these other
guys, you know, Matt Lauer and
all these other guys, didn't
they think it would catch up
with them?
They must have been suffering,
not that I care but.
>> You wonder.
>> Katy said on her show what is
it about New York State politics
and the commentator sitting next
to her talked about the lawless
culture of male entitlement.
>> In Albany specifically.
>> Now that leads us directly to
the fs.
Lisa.
>> Kind of staying on the same
subject.
Town and country gets my f for
inviting Monica Lewinsky to the
summit and then when Bill
Clinton said he would attend,
disinvited Lewinsky.
Even in the me too era, town and
country and too many other
people still don't get that Bill
Clinton abused his power and
privilege and took advantage of
a 24-year-old intern and has yet
to pay the price.
>> Okay.
>> I'm giving an f to George
Mason university and the koch
brothers.
They have been funding faculty
positions at various
universities for many years but
we learned last week actually
that, in fact, they had been
exerting undue influence with
the okay of the leaders of
George Mason university in
Virginia, to actually shape and
manipulate who was accepted and
hired for various faculty
positions.
It's completely wrong.
It violates a fundamental
boundary line about who gets to
work as a faculty members in
various departments, especially
economics departments.
It's a terrible abuse of money
and power.
>> Tim.
>> I never thought I would say
this all these years later.
An f to Oliver north, the new
president of the national rifle
association who said this week
about the Iranian deal, never
believe an Iranian because if
their lips are moving, they're
lying.
I mean what a ridiculous thing
to say about millions of people
but especially by Oliver north
who illegally sold arms to Iran
and criminally lied about it.
Do these people ever go away?
>> An f to nick Mulvaney current
head of the consumer financial
protection bureau who is working
basically to kill his agency.
Since coming into office he has
halted all new investigations,
frozen hiring, stopped data
collection, cut off access to a
consumer complaint.
Payday lenders, Mulvaney has
dropped most of the cases
against these people.
>> And the as Lisa.
>> My a to the Trump
Administration for securing the
release of three prisoners who
had been held by North Korea.
It's hard to imagine the joy
that those people, their
families and friends are
experiencing.
>> I'm giving an a to the fact
that Don blank inship--
blankenship, the former owner of
an avaricious mining company
came in third after poll results
indicated otherwise for the
Republican primary in the U.S.
Senate.
Third is a lot better than
first.
>> Tim.
>> An a to five moderate G.O.P.
house members who have issued a
motion to dismiss to force Paul
Ryan to get a vote on docket to
the floor of the house.
They're not really moderates.
They serve in purple districts
worried about reelection but
they're getting close to forcing
Paul Ryan to bring a DACA vote
to the house.
It will be a small chink in the
Hastert rule and I hope they
succeed.
>> Teacher appreciation week.
So an a to all teachers,
especially those who protest
their declining wages and the
horribly insufficient funding
for education in their state.
They have been successful and we
should be appreciative to all of
them for standing up for quality
education.
>> I want to thank you a
question, Tim because I think
last week I had to give a little
sideline.
We need another one.
The vote on DACA that you are
saying they are trying to force
Paul Ryan to hold the vote house
does it work?
>> If they get a market in the
House of Representatives.
They can force the vote.
The Hastert is he won't bring a
vote to the floor unless a
majority of Republicans are
supporting it.
This is a small group of
Republicans trying to vote with
Democrats to force a vote and
they will all vote to codify
DACA and Ryan will lose.
>> And perhaps the Hastert rule
will...
>> I doubt it but we can hope.
>> Will go away?
>> If they get 20 Republicans,
then the discharge petition
forces that on to the house
despite what the leader...
>> U.S. governance would be
dramatically different if the
House of Representatives
operated by majority rule.
>> Thank you and thanks for
joining us.
For your comments, write to the
address on your screen.
If you would like to view the
show again, you can view it
online at WCNY.org.
I'm David Chanatry.
For all of us at "Ivory Tower,"
have a good night.
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