IF THE REGULATION OF

ALCOHOL SALES IN INDIANA WERE

A COCKTAIL, THE RECIPE MIGHT

BE SOMETHING LIKE THIS --

COMBINE SIX SHOTS OF CALENDAR

RESTRICTIONS, TWO JIGGERS OF

HOURLY CUTOFFS, AND A SPLASH

OF POPULATION-BASED LICENSING

QUOTAS.

SHAKE PERIODICALLY, FOR 80

YEARS OR SO, THEN IGNITE AND

SERVE FLAMING.

HI, I'M JON SCHWANTES, AND ON

THIS EDITION OF "INDIANA

LAWMAKERS," WE'LL EXAMINE THE

UPROAR SPARKED BY THE LATEST

PUSH TO LOOSEN AT LEAST SOME

OF THE STATE'S

POST-PROHIBITION CONTROLS,

INCLUDING THE LONGSTANDING BAN

ON SUNDAY CARRYOUT SALES.

HERE'S WFYI NEWS ANCHOR

CHRISTOPHER AYERS WITH THE

BACKGROUND.

SIX DAYS OF THE WEEK YOU'RE

FREE TO PICK YOUR POISON.

BUT COME THE WEE HOURS SUNDAY

MORNING, THIS STATE'S ALL

DRIED UP.

INDIANA AND ITS NEIGHBOR

STATES ALL ENFORCED SO-CALLED

BLUE LAWS BANNING SUNDAY

ALCOHOL SALES FOLLOWING THE

END OF PROHIBITION.

SLOWLY, THE OTHER STATES

LIFTED THOSE LAWS.

INDIANA'S REMAINS ON THE

BOOKS.

BUT THIS YEAR COULD BE

DIFFERENT.

HOUSE PUBLIC POLICY COMMITTEE

CHAIRMAN REPUBLICAN TOM DERMONDY

HAS AUTHORED A BILL THAT WOULD

ALLOW SUNDAY SALES DURING

LIMITED HOURS.

IT WOULD ALSO EASE

RESTRICTIONS ON ITEMS LIQUOR

STORES CAN SELL.

HE SAYS HIS BILL WILL AT LEAST

GET A COMMITTEE READING.

I SUPPORT HAVING THE DEBATE

ONCE AND FOR ALL SO WE DON'T

KEEP BRINGING IT BACK YEAR

AFTER, AND I THINK THE PEOPLE

IN THE STATE ARE READY TO HAVE

THE DEBATE AND HAVE BEEN

ASKING ENOUGH QUESTIONS THAT

I'VE SPENT TIME TO PREPARE AND

LOOKING FORWARD TO DISCUSSING

IT THIS SESSION.

INDIANA'S BAN DOESN'T COVER

ALL CARRYOUT SALES ON SUNDAY.

WINERIES HAVE BEEN EXEMPT

SINCE 1971 AND BREWERIES SINCE

2010, BOTH EXCEPTIONS MEANT TO

STIMULATE TOURISM.

THE INDIANA CHAMBER OF

COMMERCE SAYS IT SUPPORTS

DERMODY'S BILL.

CHAMBER PRESIDENT, KEVIN

BRINEGAR, SAYS AT THIS POINT

THE ISSUE COMES DOWN TO

CONSUMER CONVENIENCE AND

LIFTING THE BAN MAKES SENSE.

WE THINK IT'S A COMMONSENSE

APPROACH.

IT BRINGS INDIANA IN LINE WITH

THE VAST, VAST MAJORITY OF

OTHER STATES.

STILL, THE BILL FACES SOME

STRONG OPPOSITION, LARGELY

FROM THE INDIANA ASSOCIATION

OF BEVERAGE RETAILERS AND THE

LIQUOR STORES IT REPRESENTS.

IT CLAIMS DERMODY'S BILL WOULD

HURT ITS MEMBERS-SAYING

PACKAGE STORES HAVE SET UP

BUSINESS MODELS THE WAY THE

STATE HAS MANDATED - AND HAS

NO CAPACITY TO CHANGE

OVERNIGHT INTO A BIG BOX

RETAIL MODEL SELLING DIAPERS

AND MILK.

DERMODY SAYS THE BILL SHOULD

GET A READING SOON.

BUT WHETHER IT LEAVES

COMMITTEE AND EVENTUALLY

BECOMES LAW IS-AT THIS

POINT-ANYONE'S GUESS.

FOR "INDIANA LAWMAKERS", I'M

CHRISTOPHER AYERS.

THANKS, CHRISTOPHER.

ACK IN A MOMENT WITH OUR

ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION.

"INDIANA LAWMAKERS" FROM THE

DEPENDING ON WHOM YOU ASK,

INDIANA'S BAN ON SUNDAY

CARRYOUT SALES IS EITHER A

BULWARK AGAINST IMPAIRED

DRIVING, UNDERAGE CONSUMPTION

AND THE ONSLAUGHT OF FACELESS,

OUT-OF-STATE CORPORATIONS --

OR -- A THROWBACK THAT STIFLES

COMPETITION, LIMITS CONSUMER

CHOICE AND HINDERS ECONOMIC

DEVELOPMENT.

HERE TO DISCUSS THE ISSUE ARE

REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE TOM

DERMODY OF LAPORTE, CHAIRMAN

OF THE HOUSE PUBLIC POLICY

COMMITTEE, REPUBLICAN SENATOR

RON ALTING OF LAFAYETTE,

CHAIRMAN OF THE SENATE PUBLIC

POLICY COMMITTEE, GRANT

MONAHAN, PRESIDENT OF THE

INDIANA RETAIL COUNCIL, WHICH

REPRESENTS GROCERY, DRUG AND

CONVENIENCE STORES, AND

PATRICK TAMM, PRESIDENT AND

CEO OF THE INDIANA ASSOCIATION

OF BEVERAGE RETAILERS, WHICH

REPRESENTS PACKAGE LIQUOR

STORES.

I WOULD SAY WE'RE GOING TO HAVE

A SPIRITED DISCUSSION BUT THAT

WILL ELICIT MOANS AND GROANS BUT

I THINK WE'LL HAVE A LIVELY

DISCUSSION.

LET'S LEAVE IT THERE.

TOM DERMONDY, YOU ARE, OF

COURSE, SPONSORING LEGISLATION

THAT WOULD ROLL BACK OR ALTER,

AT LEAST, THE SUNDAY

PROHIBITION.

WHY NOW?

WELL, I THINK IT'S TIME.

YEAR AFTER YEAR WE'VE HAD AND

HEARD THE DISCUSSION ARE WE

GOING TO HAVE SUNDAY SALES OR

NOT, YOU KNOW, THE FOCUS OF THE

LEGISLATION THIS YEAR IS THE

BUDGET.

OUR CREATING JOBS, EDUCATION,

BUT WITH THE MEDIA, THEY'VE

SEEMED TO CREATE THIS SUNDAY

SALES EXPLOSION BUT I DO BELIEVE

IT'S TIME TO HAVE THE DEBATE,

I'M EXCITED ABOUT IT.

SO IT'S REALLY CERTAINLY,

THOUGH, THE FACT THAT YOUR NAME

IS ON IT SUGGESTS THAT YOU HAVE

MORE THAN A PASSING INTEREST IN

THE FATE OF THE BILL.

YOU'RE NOT DOING IT JUST FOR THE

SHEER SAKE OF PUBLIC DISCOURSE,

I PRESUME.

WELL, ACTUALLY, I'M CARRYING

IT SO THAT I CAN MAKE SURE WE

HAVE THE DEBATE.

AND, YOU KNOW, THIS BILL, WHEN

THE FINAL LANGUAGE IS PRESENTED,

IS GOING TO BE MORE THAN JUST

ABOUT SUNDAY SALES BUT THEN

ABOUT APPROPRIATE ARREST AS

WELL.

RON ALTING, THIS IS SORT OF

AN OLD TUNE, YOU'VE HEARD IT

BEFORE, I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY

YEARS NOW YOU'VE DECLINED TO

HEAR SIMILAR LEGISLATION IN YOUR

COMMITTEE.

THIS YEAR I'VE SEEN YOU QUOTED

AS SAYING -- YOU'VE USED THE

WORD "CONSIDERATION," WHICH IS A

DEPARTURE FROM PAST PRACTICE.

IS THIS THE YEAR?

WELL, CHAIRMAN DERMONDY HAS

DONE A GOOD JOB, HE'S ASKED ME

TO REVIEW SOME OF HIS WORDING IN

THE BILL, WE'VE WORKED A LITTLE

BIT TOGETHER ON THAT, AND I

THINK HE'S WORKED HARD, I THINK

HE'S GOT A BILL THAT'S GOING TO

BE FAIR AND SUCH A BILL THAT YOU

HAVE BILL BOX, YOU HAVE PACKAGE

LIQUOR STORES.

I MEAN, THERE'S NO SECRET I HAVE

BEEN OPPOSED TO THIS BILL IN THE

PAST, BUT I THINK THAT THE

SENATE MAJORITY HAS THE OPINION

AND LEADERSHIP HAS THE OPINION,

WITH MYSELF AS CHAIRMAN, THAT IF

IT DOES COME OUT OF THE HOUSE OF

REPRESENTATIVES, THE SENATE WILL

TAKE A STRONG LOOK AT GIVING A

HEARING ON THE BILL.

CHAIRMAN DERMONDY WILL PUT ME ON

IT SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT

THE SENATE WOULD TAKE A PEEK AT

IT.

SO THAT MEANS YOU'RE INCLINED

TO GIVE IT A HEARING.

YEAH.

ALL RIGHT, WELL, A LITTLE

NEWS THERE.

I THINK THAT'S AS DEFINITIVE AS

YOU'VE BEEN SO WE'LL TAKE THAT

TO THE BANK.

GRANT MONAHAN, MUSIC TO YOUR

EARS?

VERY MUCH SO.

YES.

YES.

WE'RE PLEASED TO HAVE THE TWO

CHAIRMEN THE PUBLIC POLICIES

AUTHOR TO MAKE A HEARING ON THE

BILL IN THE SENATE.

THE CONSUMERS ARE ANXIOUS FOR

THE MODERNIZATION OF THIS LAW TO

ALLOW THEM THE ABILITY TO

PURCHASE ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES ON

SUNDAY WHEN THEY'RE DOING THE

REST OF THEIR GROCERY SHOPPING.

THIS IS CERTAINLY A GOOD STEP IN

THE RIGHT DIRECTION AND WE HAVE

A LONG WAY TO GO, WE KNOW THAT,

BUT WE'RE LOOKING FORWARD TO THE

PUBLIC DEBATE.

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE

TIMING?

YOUR ORGANIZATION, OF COURSE,

YOU'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN THIS IN

SOME WAY SHAPE OR FORM FOR A

NUMBER OF YEARS.

RIGHT.

BACK IN DECEMBER WE SAW THE

CREATION OF A NEW COALITION THAT

YOU'RE INVOLVED WITH WITH

HOOSIERS FOR SUNDAY SALES.

TO ELICIT SUPPORT OR GIN UP

SUPPORT.

IS THAT KIND OF THING MAKING A

DIFFERENCE OR THE TIME HAS COME

FORTH, MARKET FORCES HAVE

DICTATED THIS TO BE HEARD NOW.

I THINK THERE'S A VARIETY OF

THINGS THAT HAVE SORT OF FALLEN

IN PLACE.

YOU'RE RIGHT, WE'VE BEEN

PURSUING THIS LEGISLATION SINCE

2008.

SINCE THAT TIME WE'VE HAD THE

OPPORTUNITY TO EDUCATE

LEGISLATORS MORE ON THIS ISSUE.

I THINK WE'VE HELPED THEM TO

FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE WITH THE

CHANGE THAT WE'RE SEEKING AND

THE PUBLIC HAS WEIGHED IN AND

THE MEDIA HAS WEIGHED IN HEAVILY

AS YOU'VE MENTIONED AND WE'VE

HAD THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE

SIGNED AN ONLINE PETITION IN

SUPPORT OF SUNDAY SALES.

WE GET SUPPORT EVERYWHERE WE GO.

AND I THINK IT IS THE TIME TO

FINALLY PASS LEGISLATION TO

PERMIT SUNDAY SALES.

PATRICK TAMM SOMETHING TELLS

ME YOU'RE GOING TO TALK THE

OPPOSITE VIEW HERE.

I'M GUESSING YOU WOULD SAY THIS

IS NOT THE TIME, AND WHY IS

THAT?

SURE.

INDIANA, AND ALL STATES

THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY, HAVE

REALLY CRAFTED THEIR ALCOHOL

REGULATIONS FOR THE 21st

AMENDMENT.

INDIANA CREATED A FRAMEWORK,

ARREST AND LEGISLATION THAT

EDUCATIONAL CREATED A BUSINESS

MODEL THAT CREATED PACKAGE

STORES, PACKAGE STORES DIDN'T

CREATE THEMSELVES AND WE'VE

BUILT OUR BUSINESSES BASED ON

THAT FRAMEWORK AND THOSE LAWS

AND REGULATIONS.

WE RELIED ON THOSE.

WE'RE VERY RESTRICTED IN TERMS

OF WHAT WE CAN AND CANNOT DO.

THAT'S FINE.

WE TOOK THAT BARGAIN WHEN THE

STATE SET UP THE PACKAGE STORE

INDUSTRY.

THIS IS AN INDUSTRY THAT CREATED

BY LEGISLATION AND REGULATION.

GRANT JUST TALKED ABOUT, YOU

KNOW, TRYING TO GET CONTINUED

SUPPORT.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS A TOTAL

EFFORT, FINANCE-BACKED AGAIN

AND, AGAIN, AND AGAIN.

THIS IS NOT A NEW EFFORT, THIS

IS JUST A REBRAND OF WHAT

WALMART, KROGER AND THE BIG-BOX

GUYS ARE SPENDING MILLIONS OF

DOLLARS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY

TO DEREGULATE THE SALE OF

ALCOHOL.

WE DON'T BELIEVE ALCOHOL SHOULD

BE SOLD IN A DEREGULATED

ENVIRONMENT.

IT SHOULD BE SOLD IN A REGULATED

ENVIRONMENT.

I'VE HEARD THIS SO MANY TIMES

THAT DAVID GOLIATH COMPARISON

BUT I CAN NEVER TELL WHICH IS

WHICH BECAUSE CLEARLY YOUR

ORGANIZATION IS LARGELY SMALL

AND BY DEFINITION,

INDIANA-OWNED.

YOU'RE TELLING ME WALMART'S

THE UNDERDOG?

WELL, YOU HAVE A LOT OF

CLOUT, YOU TRADITIONALLY HAVE

HAD A LOT OF CLOUT, THOUGH.

WE REPRESENT INDIANA SMALL

BUSINESS OWNERS WHICH BY LAW

MUST BE INDIANA SMALL BUSINESS

OWNERS, BY LAW REQUIRED TO BE

INDIANA RESIDENTS.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO TELL ME

WALMART'S THE UNDERDOG WE'RE THE

ONLY STATE I THINK THAT WOULD

SAY THAT.

I WOULD AGREE THAT -- AND

THAT'S ABSURD.

AND IT'S PROBABLY ONE OF THE

MOST -- AGAIN, THIS SUBJECT,

THERE'S FACTS IN THIS AND THEN

THERE'S NONFACTS.

AND WHEN I WAS INTERVIEWED IN

LAFAYETTE, INDIANA, ABOUT THE

POWERFUL LOBBYISTS OF THE

PACKAGE LIQUOR STORE.

HE'S IT.

ONE GUY.

DO I NEED TO TELL YOU HOW MANY

LOBBYISTS THAT WALMART HAS, THAT

KROGER'S HAS, THAT BIG BOX HAS,

THAT CONVENIENCE STORES HAS?

ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME THAT

CAROL CASEY AND SOME OF THESE

SMALL BUSINESS PEOPLE IN

LAFAYETTE, INDIANA THAT I'VE

KNOWN MY WHOLE LIFE, JUST

HARD-WORKING INDIVIDUALS ARE

MORE POWERFUL THAN A BIG BOX, A

WALMART?

YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDIN' ME.

AND THE PRESS IS ONE, MY FEELING

IS VERY SIMPLE, THE REASON IT

HASN'T GOTTEN A HEARING AND THE

RECENT IT HASN'T WENT IN IS

MAYBE BECAUSE IT'S BEEN THE

RIGHT THING.

YOU KNOW, IT'S -- WE'RE NOT

DOING THIS, I'M NOT DOING THIS

FOR THE BIG-BOX STORES OR THE

PACKAGE LIQUOR STORES.

THESE TWO GROUPS NEED TO BE

ENGAGED IN THIS ISSUE.

AND THE SENATOR AND I ARE

WORKING VERY CLOSELY ON IT AND I

THINK BY THE END OF SESSION IF

THEY'RE A LITTLE UNHAPPY,

THEY'RE A LITTLE UNHAPPY WE

MIGHT HAVE GREAT LEGISLATION BUT

HOOSIERS ARE TALKING TO ME,

PEOPLE ARE TALKING TO ME SAYING

ISN'T IT TIME TO MODERNIZE?

WE HAVE SUNDAY SALES NOW, LET'S

NOT KID OURSELVES.

WE CAN GO TO A BREWERY AND

CARRYOUT.

YOU CAN GO TO A WINERY AND CARRY

OUT.

YOU CAN GO TO A RESTAURANT,

DRINK AT A RESTAURANT AND DRIVE

HOME AND YOU CAN GO TO A

STADIUM, DRINK, WATCH A GAME,

AND DRIVE HOME, BUT YOU CAN'T GO

AND CARRY OUT WHAT YOU CAN DO

SIX OTHER DAYS OF THE WEEK AND

CARRY HOME AND DRINK SAFELY.

I KNOW YOU'VE ALL SORT OF

ALLUDED TO THE NOTION OF THIS

BILL EVOLVING AND MOVING, NOAJ I

THINK SAID THE WORD COMPROMISE I

THINK BUT THAT WAS THE STRONG

SUGGESTION AND THERE ARE

LIMITATIONS IN THE BILL NOW, I

GUESS, THE HOURS AS IT STANDS

NOW 10 A.M. TO 6 P.M.

I SUPPOSE THAT COULD SHIFT NOW

BETWEEN NOW AND THE ULTIMATE

DECISION IF THIS BILL PREVAILS

OR NOT.

ALSO YOU WOULD GET LIQUOR STORE

OWNERS WHO TRADITIONAL HAVE A

SMALL NUMBER OF ITEMS THAT THEY

COULD SELL EXPAND THAT IN HOPES

OF GIVING THEM OTHER PRODUCT,

REVENUE STREAMS, IS THAT THE

IDEA?

WELL, I'VE HEARD THAT FROM

SOME MEMBERS AND PACKAGE LIQUOR

STORES IN THE PAST AND IT'S BEEN

MADE CLEAR TO ME AND PATRICK

WILL AGREE THAT THEY DON'T WANT

THAT.

FINE, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE THAT

OUT OF THE BILL, WE'RE GOING TO

REVIEW THE HOURS BUT I THINK THE

OTHER IMPORTANT PART OF IT AND

PATRICK BRINGS UP A POINT THAT

THEY HAVE CERTAIN REGULATIONS

THAT THEY HAVE TO FOLLOW TO SELL

THE ALCOHOL, I THINK --

THE TRAINING OF STAFF.

TRAINING OF WHO CAN WALK IN

THE STORE.

AND IT'S GREAT REACTION AND THEY

FOLLOW GREAT RULES.

I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT THAT

ACROSS THE BOARD, WHOEVER IS

CARRYING ALCOHOL AND OFFERING

ALCOHOL AND BE RESPONSIBLE AND

THAT'S THE KEY POINT HERE.

I THINK THE SUNDAY SALES IS

GOING TO END UP BEING A SIDE

POINT OF THIS BILL BUT IT'S AN

OPPORTUNITY FOR US IN INDIANA TO

SAY, HEY, WHAT IS APPROPRIATE

REACTION.

PALLET TRICK TAMM, IS THERE

NOTHING IN THERE THAT YOU FIND

AS POTENTIAL MIDDLE GROUND?

APPARENTLY THERE'S NOT AN

INTEREST IN EXPANDING THE --

I THINK THE CHAIRMEN SUMMED

UP OUR CONVERSATIONS PRETTY

SUCCINCTLY.

WE CAN'T CHANGE OUR BUSINESS

MODEL OVERNIGHT.

WE BY LAW, ARE NOT BE ABLE TO

LOCATED IN UNINCORPORATED AREAS.

WE CAN ONLY SELL 10 COMMODITY --

IT'S A COMMODITY LIST, 10 TIMES

ARE ON IT.

WE CAN'T CHANGE OUR MODEL

OVERNIGHT.

WE HAVE 5,000 SQUARE FEET

STORES, 2500 SQUARE FEET STORES,

MAYBE LARGER HERE AND THERE.

WHAT ARE WE GOING TO TAKE OUT OF

OUR STORES AND HAVE KELLOGG'S

CALL ON US.

WALMART'S PUT OUT THOSE STORES

ALREADY.

WE'VE RELIED ON THE BILL THAT WE

SELL ALCOHOL, THAT'S WHAT WE

SELL.

GRANT --

HOW CAN I SIT HERE AND LISTEN

TO THAT STUFF AND BELIEVE A

SINGLE WORD OF IT?

THESE LIQUOR STORE OWNERS HAVE

BEEN HIDING BEHIND INDIANA LAW

FOR DECADES AND THEY CONTINUE TO

DO SO.

THEY SAY THEY DON'T LIKE THE

COMMODITY RESTRICTION, BUT THEY

REALLY END UP DON'T WANT IT.

THEY SAY THEY CAN'T CHANGE THEIR

MODEL.

YES, THEY CAN.

RETAILING IS DYNAMIC AND IT'S

ALWAYS CHANGING AND OUR MEMBERS

ARE ALWAYS OUT THERE DOING

WHATEVER THEY CAN TO SERVE THEIR

CUSTOMERS BETTER AND LIQUOR

STORE OWNERS OUGHT TO BE DOING

THE SAME.

AND I THINK REPRESENTATIVE

DERMONDY'S BILL WILL GIVE THEM

THAT OPPORTUNITY TO FINALLY STEP

IN THE 21st CENTURY, SERVE THE

CUSTOMER, SERVE THE CUSTOMER

SEVEN DAYS A WEEK, AND I BELIEVE

THAT A RISING WILL SELL BOATS,

THAT LIQUOR STORE OWNERS WILL

PROFIT FROM THIS IN TERMS OF

INCREASED SALES AND INCREASED

OPPORTUNITY TO SERVE THE

CUSTOMER AS MUCH AS OUR MEMBERS

WILL.

RON ALL CONTINUING DO YOU

BELIEVE EVERYBODY NEEDS TO BE

NIMBLE AND AGILE IN THIS 21st

CENTURY ECONOMY?

THE DEBATE AS AN ECONOMIC

DEVELOPMENT BILL IS FALSE AND,

AGAIN, IT'S ONE OF THE FALLS

STATEMENTS OUT THERE.

IT MIGHT BE FOR BIG BOX,

OBVIOUSLY, AND IT WILL BE

BECAUSE IT'S A BIG SHOPPING DAY

FOR THEM.

BUT IN TERMS OF THE STATE AND

WHAT IT'S GOING TO BRING IN,

I'VE BEEN A CHAIRMAN --

TAX --

I'VE BEEN AROUND.

(OVERLAPPING SPEAKERS).

THE QUESTION HAS ALWAYS BEEN

WHY HASN'T THE FIRST HERE EVER

COME TO THE CHAIRMAN MILLER,

COORS, BUDWEISER IN ST. LOUIS

AND SAY WE REALLY SUPPORT SUNDAY

SALES.

WE'D LIKE FOR YOU TO HEAR THAT

BILL?

THEY NEVER HAVE.

AND THE REASON THEY HAVEN'T IN

MY CONVERSATIONS WITH THEM

BECAUSE STATES THAT HAVE DONE

THIS, THEY SELL -- THEY SELL THE

SAME AMOUNT IN SIX DAYS AS THEY

DO IN SEVEN SO THE SALES DOESN'T

GO UP ANYWHERE.

THAT'S ONE REASON WHY YOU'VE

NEVER HEARD OF -- YOU'RE NOT

GOING TO HEAR THEM TESTIFY IN

CHAIRMAN DERMONDY'S COMMITTEE

NOR IN THE SENATE.

SO IN TERMS OF IT BEING AN

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BILL, IT'S

NOT.

CONVENIENCE?

ABSOLUTELY.

AND I THINK THAT THIS IS ONE

REASON THIS IS FINALLY GOT AS

FAR AS IT HAS, BECAUSE THEY HAVE

BEEN BEATEN THE DOOR ON SO LONG

THAT THIS IS ECONOMIC

DEVELOPMENT, ECONOMIC

DEVELOPMENT.

AND MOST LEGISLATORS UNDERSTAND

IT'S NOT.

BUT WHAT YOU CANNOT ARGUE IS

THAT IT IS CONVENIENCE.

THAT'S WHEN THE CONSUMER IS

SHOPPING ON SUNDAY AND IT IS

CONVENIENT FOR THEM.

AND THAT'S A VALID POINT.

IT CERTAINLY IS A VALID POINT

AND WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO

BEAT THAT DRUM, SENATOR.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME YOU'VE GOT

10 -- ONE-THIRD OF THE STATE'S

POPULATION, A LITTLE OVER

2 MILLION PEOPLE LIVE IN BORDER

COUNTIES THAT BORDER STATES THAT

PERMIT SUNDAY SALES AND THOSE

PEOPLE ARE CROSSING THE STATE

LINE ON SUNDAY AND THEY'RE

BUYING THAT ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES

OUT OF STATE.

AND WE ARGUE THAT THEY'RE

TARIKING THEIR ENTIRE SHOPPING

LIST WITH THEM WHEN THEY DO

THAT.

I THINK THERE IS AN ECONOMIC

DEVELOPMENT COMPONENT TO THIS.

I THINK IT SAYS A LOT ABOUT WHAT

THE STATE CAN DO TO HELP

RETAILING CONTINUE TO GROW IN

THIS STATE BY BRINGING THOSE

PEOPLE BACK HOME ON SUNDAY

RATHER THAN FORCING THEM TO GO

OUT OF STATE TO MAKE THEIR

PURCHASES.

GRANT --

THAT'S WHAT I'M HEARING YOU

SAY IS WE HAVE 92 COUNTIES, SO

WE SHOULD DO PUBLIC POLICY BASED

UPON THREE -- POSSIBLY THREE OR

FOUR COUNTIES THAT IS IN OUR

BORDER STATES.

GRANT, THE -- YOU TALK

ABOUT --

DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

34 BORDER COUNTIES THAT

BORDER INDIANA THAT BORDER

STATES THAT PERMIT SUNDAY SALES.

AND I THINK THOSE PEOPLE ARE

CROSSING THE STATE LINE TO

PURCHASE ON SUNDAY.

IT WOULD BE BETTER IF THOSE

SALES WERE RUNNING UP IN INDIANA

THAN IN OHIO OR MICHIGAN.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THOSE

STATES.

THEY'RE ALL LOCAL OPTION, GRANT.

ALL LOCAL OPTION SUNDAY SALES.

YOU STILL HAVE DRY COUNTIES IN

KENTUCKY.

YOU STILL HAVE DRY COUNTIES IN

ILLINOIS.

YOU HAVE REFERENDUMS IN OHIO

THAT KROGER WAS JUST FOUND

INDICTED BECAUSE YOU HAD INVALID

SIGNATURES SO YOU WANT TO

ESLOWED ALCOHOL, GRANT.

THEY'RE LOCAL OPTION.

DISCUS, LOOK AT YOUR OWN MAP,

IT'S THERE.

I LIKE THE FACT THAT WE'RE

DOING LEGISLATION FOR SOMEBODY

OUTSIDE OF MARION COUNTY BECAUSE

COMING FROM NORTHERN INDIANA, WE

SEEM TO DO NOTHING MORE THAN

LEGISLATION SPECIFIC TO MARION

COUNTY.

AND FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, I'VE

GOT A COUPLE PACKAGE LIQUOR

STORES THAT ARE GOING TO BE

COMING DOWN TESTIFYING IN

SUPPORT OF THE BILL BECAUSE,

AGAIN, THEY HAVE SIX MILES AWAY

NEW BUFFALO, MICHIGAN AND THESE

PEOPLE ARE SAYING, HEY, WE WANT

THE PEOPLE TO STAY AT HOME, I

AGREE WITH PATRICK THAT WE HAVE

TO HAVE THE LEGISLATION, WE'RE

NOT GOING TO BE IRRESPONSIBLE

AND I BELIEVE IT'S UP TO THE

SENATOR AND MYSELF TO MAKE SURE

THE LEGISLATION IS APPROPRIATE

BECAUSE I KNOW HE'S CLEAR ABOUT

IT AND I'M CLEAR WE DON'T WANT

UNDERAGE DRINKING OR

IRRESPONSIBLE DRINKING BUT LET'S

NOT IGNORE THE FACT THAT WE HAVE

SUNDAY SALES.

THIS SYMPATHY A

REPUBLICAN-DEMOCRATIC ISSUE,

THIS IS PERFECT EVIDENCE THIS

HAS MUCH MORE TO DO WITH

GEOGRAPHY AND RURAL

INVESTIGATORS URBAN AND OTHER

SORTS OF ISSUES --

THERE YOU GO, DON'T DO IT FOR

CONSUMERS IF YOU DON'T WANT TO.

DO IT FOR LIQUOR STORE OWNERS

WHO ARE IN BORDER COMMUNITIES

WHO KNOW THEY'RE LOSING SALES

EVERY SUNDAY.

SO THERE YOU GO.

THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO HELP

THE SMALL, INDEPENDENT LIQUOR

STORE OWNERS THAT PAT TAMM SAYS

HE'S CHAMPIONING, GIVE THEM AN

OPPORTUNITY TO INCREASE THEIR

SALES AND GROW ON SUNDAY.

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THIS

CLICHE, ANOTHER ONE THAT COMES

UP THAT GOVERNMENT SHOULDN'T BE

IN THE BUSINESS OF PICKING

WINNERS AND LOSERS.

THAT CUTS BOTH WAYS.

IF THIS OPENED A BROADER

CROSS-SECTION OF RETAILERS,

PATRICK TAMM, I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN

QUOTED AS SAYING THAT'S PICKING

A WINNER AND A LOSER, YOUR

CLIENTS AND YOUR MEMBERS BEING

SECONDLY LOSERS BUT ISN'T THE

OPPOSITE TRUE TRUE?

ISN'T THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OR

EXISTING STATUTE PICKING A

WINNER IN THIS REGARD, TOO?

I MEAN, IS AN ARGUMENT -- LET

THE MARKET, YOU KNOW --

YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT --

WE'RE SELLING ALCOHOL IN A

REGULATED ENVIRONMENT.

ALCOHOL'S NOT IN A FREE MARKET.

NEVER HAS BEEN.

SO YOU HAVE TO REALIZE WE'RE

TALKING ABOUT ALCOHOL.

WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT

POP-TARTS.

WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT CEREAL.

WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT MILK.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ALCOHOL.

WE'RE SELLING TOBACCO BEHIND THE

COUNTER.

WE'RE SELLING COLD MEDICINE

BEHIND THE PHARMACY.

WHY ARE WE DOING THAT?

BECAUSE THOSE PRODUCTS CAN CAUSE

SOX HARM.

DON'T DISAGREE.

ALCOHOL CAN CAUSE PRETTY QUICK

HARM, CAN END LIVES, CAN HAVE

SOME TRAGIC IMPACT.

LET'S REFRAME WHERE THIS IS A

PUBLIC POLICY DECISION, HOW DO

YOU WANT TO SELL ALCOHOL, YOU

WANT TO SELL IT WILLY-NILLY ALL

OVER THE STORE LIKE WALMART DOES

AND ALL THE BIG BOX FOLKS DO OR

SELL IT IN A RESPONSIBLE MANNER?

GRANT IS IN A BLOOD THIRST

SEARCH FOR PROFITS.

WALMART WANTS TO BE A MARKET

LEADER NATIONALLY IN THE SALES

OF ALCOHOL.

THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.

THEY DON'T REALLY CARE HOW THEY

GET THERE.

THEY WANT TO GET THERE.

SO WHAT ARE THEY DOING?

THEY'RE SPENDING MILLIONS OF

DOLLARS ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO

ERODE AND DEEATING THE SALE OF

ALCOHOL.

OUR MEMBERS SELL ALCOHOLIC

BEVERAGES RESPONSIBLY SIX DAYS A

WEEK AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE

A.T.C.'S OWN RECORD LIQUOR STORE

OWNERS ARE MORE LIKELY TO SELL

TO MINORS THAN DRUG AND GROCERY

STORE OPERATORS ARE AND THAT'S A

CONSISTENT FACT.

THEY CONSTANTLY SELL MORE TO

MINORS THAN OUR MEMBERS DO.

(OVERLAPPING SPEAKERS).

YOU JUST TALK ABOUT

REGULATION ALL YOU WANT BUT THE

FACT IS WE'VE GOT RESPONSIBLE

CORPORATE CITIZENS WHO ARE

OPERATING STORES WHERE PEOPLE

WANT TO SHOP.

BUT THE BIG BOXES, THEY

EMPLOY HOOSIERS.

AND THEN ALSO PATRICK REPRESENTS

SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS, I'M A

SMALL BUSINESS OWNER.

I KNOW HOW DIFFICULT IT IS AND

THEY'RE UNDER GREAT REGULATION.

AND FROM THE A.T. C.'S

PERSPECTIVE, HOW DIFFICULT IS IT

TO MONITOR A BIG BOX STORE THAT

ALLOWS UNDERAGE INDIVIDUALS IN

THERE TO DECIDE WHO'S VIOLATING

AND WHO'S NOT WHERE IT'S CLEAR

IN A PACKAGE CLICK LIQUOR STORE,

HEY, YOU HAVE TO BE 21.

IT'S EASY, I BELIEVE, AND YOU

CAN AGREE OR DISAGREE TO FIND

THOSE VIOLATIONS IN A PACKAGE

LIQUOR STORE.

THE CHAIRMAN IS RIGHT.

THE CHAIRMAN IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

THE CHAIRMAN IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

[LAUGHTER]

I HOPE OUR COLLEAGUES

UNDERSTAND THAT.

[LAUGHTER]

ANYONE HOW, BECAUSE WHEN YOU

COME OUT OF A PACKAGE LIQUOR

STORE YOU'RE ONLY CARRYING

ALCOHOL, THERE'S NO SECRET.

WHEN YOU COME OUT OF A BIG BOX

THERE COULD BE MILKICS BREAD,

YATTA, YATTA, YATTA, YOU CAN'T

STOP EVERYONE TO LET ME LOOK IN

THEIR SACK.

GRANT'S RIGHT IN TERMS OF THE

VIOLATIONS BUT EVEN IF YOU MEET

WITH THE A.T.C. THE CHAIRMAN'S

EXACTLY RIGHT IT'S A MATTER OF

HOOSIER CUSTOMERS.

WHERE JUDGE YOUNG CAME DOWN

ON THIS IN A COLD BEER CASE.

SAME LINE.

JUDGE YOUNG CALLED IT MISPLACED,

IRRELEVANT.

BECAUSE WE'RE UNDER MUCH

STRICTER REGULATIONS, WE HAVE

PROBABLE CAUSE COMING OUT OF OUR

STORES.

JUDGE YOUNG, MISPLACED AND

IRRELEVANT.

I'M GETTING THE SIGNAL IT'S

LAST CALL FOR US, TURN THE

LIGHTS OFF PRETTY SOON, DIDN'T

GET TO LINE SALES AND MICRO

BREWERIES.

TIME FLIES WHEN YOU'RE TALKING

TO SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO

HOOSIERS ON THIS ISSUE

AGAIN, MY GUESTS HAVE BEEN

REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE TOM

DERMODY OF LAPORTE

REPUBLICAN SENATOR RON ALTING

OF LAFAYETTE GRANT MONAHAN

OF THE INDIANA RETAIL COUNCIL

AND PATRICK TAMM OF THE

INDIANA ASSOCIATION OF

BEVERAGE RETAILERS.

DOES FREEDOM OF RELIGION

INCLUDE FREEDOM FROM RELIGION?

WHEN DO MY BELIEFS TRUMP YOURS?

ON THE NEXT INDIANA LAWMAKERS.

TIME NOW FOR MY WEEKLY

CONVERSATION WITH ED

FEIGENBAUM, PUBLISHER OF THE

NEWSLETTER INDIANA LEGISLATIVE

INSIGHT

ED, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS

DEBATE?

I DON'T THINK THIS IS A

CONVERSATION, I THINK WE OUGHT

TO CALL IT HAPPY HOUR HERE.

WE SAW SOME VERY INTERESTING

INTERCHANGE OBVIOUSLY DURING THE

ROUND TABLE BUT I THINK WHAT YOU

NEED TO DO IS STEP BACK AND LOOK

AT WHERE WE'D BE IF WE WERE

STARTING FROM SCRATCH.

NOW, OBVIOUSLY, THE LEGISLATURE

CAN'T DO THAT BUT I THINK

EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS THAT IF WE

WERE SETTING UP A REGULATORY

SYSTEM TODAY, IT WOULD NOT LOOK

ANYTHING LIKE WHAT WE HAVE

TODAY, WHAT IT'S EVOLVED INTO,

WHAT IT STARTED OUT AS, YOU

KNOW, JUST AFTER THE PROHIBITION

AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE

IN THE BACK OF THEIR MINDS THAT

GIVEN THAT WE WOULDN'T DO IT

TODAY IF WE WERE TO START OUT

AGAIN TODAY, THAT MAYBE IT IS

TIME FOR SOME CHANGES.

BUT WE VOTE AS A STATE,

HAMSTRUNG IS A LOADED WORD, BY

HISTORY SOME WOULD SAY THAT'S

GOOD POLICY BUT CLEARLY HISTORY

BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN A

VACUUM WILL HELP SHAPE THIS

DEBATE MOVING FORWARD?

SURE, AND SO WILL -- WE'LL

PUT OUR CONCEPT OF WHAT THE

FUTURE OUGHT TO BE.

AND THERE ARE A BUNCH OF OTHER

ITEMS UNDER THAT REBRICK WITH

RESPECT TO ALCOHOL ARREST AS

WELL.

DIVE IN WITH THOSE, WE WANT,

OF COURSE WINE SHIPMENTS.

SURE THE DIRECT-TO-CONSUMER

WINE SHIPMENT THING, THE

REQUIREMENT TO HAVE FACE-TO-FACE

CONTACT.

AGAIN, MAYBE A BIT ANACHRONISTIC

WE WOULDN'T TODAY IF WE WOULD

START FROM SCRATCH REGULATING.

THERE ARE THINGS THAT WE'VE DONE

EVEN OVER THE PAST DECADE WITH

RESPECT TO THE SMALL CRAFT

BREWERIES AND THE LIMITS THAT

WERE IMPOSED ON THEM THAT WE

MIGHT NOT DO IF WE STARTED AGAIN

FROM SCRATCH TODAY.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU'VE GOT

A SYSTEM, YOU'VE GOT A RUBRIC,

YOU'VE GOT A FRAMEWORK, AS

PATRICK TAMM POINTED OUT, THAT

HAS WORKED FOR THE STATE FOR SO

LONG AND IF YOU START MAKING

SOME SMALL CHANGES, LIKE, FOR

EXAMPLE, BUMPING UP THE CAP FOR

THE SMALL BREWERIES, THEN YOU

RUN UP AGAINST SOME OF THE OTHER

SYSTEMS LIKE THE THREE-TIER

DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM WHICH IS

IMPORTANT NOT ONLY IN INDIANA

BUT ACROSS --

CONSTERNATION OF THE INDIANA

LIQUOR LAWS, TO SOME EXTENT.

ABSOLUTELY.

THEN YOU BRING IN ALL FORMS OF

REGULATION AND WE'RE LOOKING AT

THESE KINDS OF THINGS WITH

RESPECT TO OTHER AREAS LIKE WHEN

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AUTO SALES,

FOR EXAMPLE, THAT THE

REQUIREMENT THAT YOU HAVE A CAR

DEALER BE OR YOUR DIRECTOR AS

OPPOSED TO DIRECT CONSUMER CAR

SALES.

INTERESTING STUFF.

WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT THIS,

AGAIN, THIS SEASON, I AM SURE.

LOTS ON TAP.

ED, THANK YOU, AS ALWAYS FOR

YOUR INSIGHT

WELL, THAT CONCLUDES

ANOTHER EDITION OF "INDIANA

LAWMAKERS".

I'M JON SCHWANTES, AND, ON

BEHALF OF WFYI PUBLIC MEDIA

AND INDIANA'S OTHER

PUBLIC-BROADCASTING STATIONS,

I THANK YOU FOR JOINING US

AND I INVITE YOU TO VISIT

WFYI.org.

UNTIL NEXT WEEK TAKE CARE