IF THE REGULATION OF
ALCOHOL SALES IN INDIANA WERE
A COCKTAIL, THE RECIPE MIGHT
BE SOMETHING LIKE THIS --
COMBINE SIX SHOTS OF CALENDAR
RESTRICTIONS, TWO JIGGERS OF
HOURLY CUTOFFS, AND A SPLASH
OF POPULATION-BASED LICENSING
QUOTAS.
SHAKE PERIODICALLY, FOR 80
YEARS OR SO, THEN IGNITE AND
SERVE FLAMING.
HI, I'M JON SCHWANTES, AND ON
THIS EDITION OF "INDIANA
LAWMAKERS," WE'LL EXAMINE THE
UPROAR SPARKED BY THE LATEST
PUSH TO LOOSEN AT LEAST SOME
OF THE STATE'S
POST-PROHIBITION CONTROLS,
INCLUDING THE LONGSTANDING BAN
ON SUNDAY CARRYOUT SALES.
HERE'S WFYI NEWS ANCHOR
CHRISTOPHER AYERS WITH THE
BACKGROUND.
SIX DAYS OF THE WEEK YOU'RE
FREE TO PICK YOUR POISON.
BUT COME THE WEE HOURS SUNDAY
MORNING, THIS STATE'S ALL
DRIED UP.
INDIANA AND ITS NEIGHBOR
STATES ALL ENFORCED SO-CALLED
BLUE LAWS BANNING SUNDAY
ALCOHOL SALES FOLLOWING THE
END OF PROHIBITION.
SLOWLY, THE OTHER STATES
LIFTED THOSE LAWS.
INDIANA'S REMAINS ON THE
BOOKS.
BUT THIS YEAR COULD BE
DIFFERENT.
HOUSE PUBLIC POLICY COMMITTEE
CHAIRMAN REPUBLICAN TOM DERMONDY
HAS AUTHORED A BILL THAT WOULD
ALLOW SUNDAY SALES DURING
LIMITED HOURS.
IT WOULD ALSO EASE
RESTRICTIONS ON ITEMS LIQUOR
STORES CAN SELL.
HE SAYS HIS BILL WILL AT LEAST
GET A COMMITTEE READING.
I SUPPORT HAVING THE DEBATE
ONCE AND FOR ALL SO WE DON'T
KEEP BRINGING IT BACK YEAR
AFTER, AND I THINK THE PEOPLE
IN THE STATE ARE READY TO HAVE
THE DEBATE AND HAVE BEEN
ASKING ENOUGH QUESTIONS THAT
I'VE SPENT TIME TO PREPARE AND
LOOKING FORWARD TO DISCUSSING
IT THIS SESSION.
INDIANA'S BAN DOESN'T COVER
ALL CARRYOUT SALES ON SUNDAY.
WINERIES HAVE BEEN EXEMPT
SINCE 1971 AND BREWERIES SINCE
2010, BOTH EXCEPTIONS MEANT TO
STIMULATE TOURISM.
THE INDIANA CHAMBER OF
COMMERCE SAYS IT SUPPORTS
DERMODY'S BILL.
CHAMBER PRESIDENT, KEVIN
BRINEGAR, SAYS AT THIS POINT
THE ISSUE COMES DOWN TO
CONSUMER CONVENIENCE AND
LIFTING THE BAN MAKES SENSE.
WE THINK IT'S A COMMONSENSE
APPROACH.
IT BRINGS INDIANA IN LINE WITH
THE VAST, VAST MAJORITY OF
OTHER STATES.
STILL, THE BILL FACES SOME
STRONG OPPOSITION, LARGELY
FROM THE INDIANA ASSOCIATION
OF BEVERAGE RETAILERS AND THE
LIQUOR STORES IT REPRESENTS.
IT CLAIMS DERMODY'S BILL WOULD
HURT ITS MEMBERS-SAYING
PACKAGE STORES HAVE SET UP
BUSINESS MODELS THE WAY THE
STATE HAS MANDATED - AND HAS
NO CAPACITY TO CHANGE
OVERNIGHT INTO A BIG BOX
RETAIL MODEL SELLING DIAPERS
AND MILK.
DERMODY SAYS THE BILL SHOULD
GET A READING SOON.
BUT WHETHER IT LEAVES
COMMITTEE AND EVENTUALLY
BECOMES LAW IS-AT THIS
POINT-ANYONE'S GUESS.
FOR "INDIANA LAWMAKERS", I'M
CHRISTOPHER AYERS.
THANKS, CHRISTOPHER.
ACK IN A MOMENT WITH OUR
ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION.
"INDIANA LAWMAKERS" FROM THE
DEPENDING ON WHOM YOU ASK,
INDIANA'S BAN ON SUNDAY
CARRYOUT SALES IS EITHER A
BULWARK AGAINST IMPAIRED
DRIVING, UNDERAGE CONSUMPTION
AND THE ONSLAUGHT OF FACELESS,
OUT-OF-STATE CORPORATIONS --
OR -- A THROWBACK THAT STIFLES
COMPETITION, LIMITS CONSUMER
CHOICE AND HINDERS ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT.
HERE TO DISCUSS THE ISSUE ARE
REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE TOM
DERMODY OF LAPORTE, CHAIRMAN
OF THE HOUSE PUBLIC POLICY
COMMITTEE, REPUBLICAN SENATOR
RON ALTING OF LAFAYETTE,
CHAIRMAN OF THE SENATE PUBLIC
POLICY COMMITTEE, GRANT
MONAHAN, PRESIDENT OF THE
INDIANA RETAIL COUNCIL, WHICH
REPRESENTS GROCERY, DRUG AND
CONVENIENCE STORES, AND
PATRICK TAMM, PRESIDENT AND
CEO OF THE INDIANA ASSOCIATION
OF BEVERAGE RETAILERS, WHICH
REPRESENTS PACKAGE LIQUOR
STORES.
I WOULD SAY WE'RE GOING TO HAVE
A SPIRITED DISCUSSION BUT THAT
WILL ELICIT MOANS AND GROANS BUT
I THINK WE'LL HAVE A LIVELY
DISCUSSION.
LET'S LEAVE IT THERE.
TOM DERMONDY, YOU ARE, OF
COURSE, SPONSORING LEGISLATION
THAT WOULD ROLL BACK OR ALTER,
AT LEAST, THE SUNDAY
PROHIBITION.
WHY NOW?
WELL, I THINK IT'S TIME.
YEAR AFTER YEAR WE'VE HAD AND
HEARD THE DISCUSSION ARE WE
GOING TO HAVE SUNDAY SALES OR
NOT, YOU KNOW, THE FOCUS OF THE
LEGISLATION THIS YEAR IS THE
BUDGET.
OUR CREATING JOBS, EDUCATION,
BUT WITH THE MEDIA, THEY'VE
SEEMED TO CREATE THIS SUNDAY
SALES EXPLOSION BUT I DO BELIEVE
IT'S TIME TO HAVE THE DEBATE,
I'M EXCITED ABOUT IT.
SO IT'S REALLY CERTAINLY,
THOUGH, THE FACT THAT YOUR NAME
IS ON IT SUGGESTS THAT YOU HAVE
MORE THAN A PASSING INTEREST IN
THE FATE OF THE BILL.
YOU'RE NOT DOING IT JUST FOR THE
SHEER SAKE OF PUBLIC DISCOURSE,
I PRESUME.
WELL, ACTUALLY, I'M CARRYING
IT SO THAT I CAN MAKE SURE WE
HAVE THE DEBATE.
AND, YOU KNOW, THIS BILL, WHEN
THE FINAL LANGUAGE IS PRESENTED,
IS GOING TO BE MORE THAN JUST
ABOUT SUNDAY SALES BUT THEN
ABOUT APPROPRIATE ARREST AS
WELL.
RON ALTING, THIS IS SORT OF
AN OLD TUNE, YOU'VE HEARD IT
BEFORE, I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY
YEARS NOW YOU'VE DECLINED TO
HEAR SIMILAR LEGISLATION IN YOUR
COMMITTEE.
THIS YEAR I'VE SEEN YOU QUOTED
AS SAYING -- YOU'VE USED THE
WORD "CONSIDERATION," WHICH IS A
DEPARTURE FROM PAST PRACTICE.
IS THIS THE YEAR?
WELL, CHAIRMAN DERMONDY HAS
DONE A GOOD JOB, HE'S ASKED ME
TO REVIEW SOME OF HIS WORDING IN
THE BILL, WE'VE WORKED A LITTLE
BIT TOGETHER ON THAT, AND I
THINK HE'S WORKED HARD, I THINK
HE'S GOT A BILL THAT'S GOING TO
BE FAIR AND SUCH A BILL THAT YOU
HAVE BILL BOX, YOU HAVE PACKAGE
LIQUOR STORES.
I MEAN, THERE'S NO SECRET I HAVE
BEEN OPPOSED TO THIS BILL IN THE
PAST, BUT I THINK THAT THE
SENATE MAJORITY HAS THE OPINION
AND LEADERSHIP HAS THE OPINION,
WITH MYSELF AS CHAIRMAN, THAT IF
IT DOES COME OUT OF THE HOUSE OF
REPRESENTATIVES, THE SENATE WILL
TAKE A STRONG LOOK AT GIVING A
HEARING ON THE BILL.
CHAIRMAN DERMONDY WILL PUT ME ON
IT SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT
THE SENATE WOULD TAKE A PEEK AT
IT.
SO THAT MEANS YOU'RE INCLINED
TO GIVE IT A HEARING.
YEAH.
ALL RIGHT, WELL, A LITTLE
NEWS THERE.
I THINK THAT'S AS DEFINITIVE AS
YOU'VE BEEN SO WE'LL TAKE THAT
TO THE BANK.
GRANT MONAHAN, MUSIC TO YOUR
EARS?
VERY MUCH SO.
YES.
YES.
WE'RE PLEASED TO HAVE THE TWO
CHAIRMEN THE PUBLIC POLICIES
AUTHOR TO MAKE A HEARING ON THE
BILL IN THE SENATE.
THE CONSUMERS ARE ANXIOUS FOR
THE MODERNIZATION OF THIS LAW TO
ALLOW THEM THE ABILITY TO
PURCHASE ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES ON
SUNDAY WHEN THEY'RE DOING THE
REST OF THEIR GROCERY SHOPPING.
THIS IS CERTAINLY A GOOD STEP IN
THE RIGHT DIRECTION AND WE HAVE
A LONG WAY TO GO, WE KNOW THAT,
BUT WE'RE LOOKING FORWARD TO THE
PUBLIC DEBATE.
HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE
TIMING?
YOUR ORGANIZATION, OF COURSE,
YOU'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN THIS IN
SOME WAY SHAPE OR FORM FOR A
NUMBER OF YEARS.
RIGHT.
BACK IN DECEMBER WE SAW THE
CREATION OF A NEW COALITION THAT
YOU'RE INVOLVED WITH WITH
HOOSIERS FOR SUNDAY SALES.
TO ELICIT SUPPORT OR GIN UP
SUPPORT.
IS THAT KIND OF THING MAKING A
DIFFERENCE OR THE TIME HAS COME
FORTH, MARKET FORCES HAVE
DICTATED THIS TO BE HEARD NOW.
I THINK THERE'S A VARIETY OF
THINGS THAT HAVE SORT OF FALLEN
IN PLACE.
YOU'RE RIGHT, WE'VE BEEN
PURSUING THIS LEGISLATION SINCE
2008.
SINCE THAT TIME WE'VE HAD THE
OPPORTUNITY TO EDUCATE
LEGISLATORS MORE ON THIS ISSUE.
I THINK WE'VE HELPED THEM TO
FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE WITH THE
CHANGE THAT WE'RE SEEKING AND
THE PUBLIC HAS WEIGHED IN AND
THE MEDIA HAS WEIGHED IN HEAVILY
AS YOU'VE MENTIONED AND WE'VE
HAD THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE
SIGNED AN ONLINE PETITION IN
SUPPORT OF SUNDAY SALES.
WE GET SUPPORT EVERYWHERE WE GO.
AND I THINK IT IS THE TIME TO
FINALLY PASS LEGISLATION TO
PERMIT SUNDAY SALES.
PATRICK TAMM SOMETHING TELLS
ME YOU'RE GOING TO TALK THE
OPPOSITE VIEW HERE.
I'M GUESSING YOU WOULD SAY THIS
IS NOT THE TIME, AND WHY IS
THAT?
SURE.
INDIANA, AND ALL STATES
THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY, HAVE
REALLY CRAFTED THEIR ALCOHOL
REGULATIONS FOR THE 21st
AMENDMENT.
INDIANA CREATED A FRAMEWORK,
ARREST AND LEGISLATION THAT
EDUCATIONAL CREATED A BUSINESS
MODEL THAT CREATED PACKAGE
STORES, PACKAGE STORES DIDN'T
CREATE THEMSELVES AND WE'VE
BUILT OUR BUSINESSES BASED ON
THAT FRAMEWORK AND THOSE LAWS
AND REGULATIONS.
WE RELIED ON THOSE.
WE'RE VERY RESTRICTED IN TERMS
OF WHAT WE CAN AND CANNOT DO.
THAT'S FINE.
WE TOOK THAT BARGAIN WHEN THE
STATE SET UP THE PACKAGE STORE
INDUSTRY.
THIS IS AN INDUSTRY THAT CREATED
BY LEGISLATION AND REGULATION.
GRANT JUST TALKED ABOUT, YOU
KNOW, TRYING TO GET CONTINUED
SUPPORT.
YOU KNOW, THIS IS A TOTAL
EFFORT, FINANCE-BACKED AGAIN
AND, AGAIN, AND AGAIN.
THIS IS NOT A NEW EFFORT, THIS
IS JUST A REBRAND OF WHAT
WALMART, KROGER AND THE BIG-BOX
GUYS ARE SPENDING MILLIONS OF
DOLLARS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY
TO DEREGULATE THE SALE OF
ALCOHOL.
WE DON'T BELIEVE ALCOHOL SHOULD
BE SOLD IN A DEREGULATED
ENVIRONMENT.
IT SHOULD BE SOLD IN A REGULATED
ENVIRONMENT.
I'VE HEARD THIS SO MANY TIMES
THAT DAVID GOLIATH COMPARISON
BUT I CAN NEVER TELL WHICH IS
WHICH BECAUSE CLEARLY YOUR
ORGANIZATION IS LARGELY SMALL
AND BY DEFINITION,
INDIANA-OWNED.
YOU'RE TELLING ME WALMART'S
THE UNDERDOG?
WELL, YOU HAVE A LOT OF
CLOUT, YOU TRADITIONALLY HAVE
HAD A LOT OF CLOUT, THOUGH.
WE REPRESENT INDIANA SMALL
BUSINESS OWNERS WHICH BY LAW
MUST BE INDIANA SMALL BUSINESS
OWNERS, BY LAW REQUIRED TO BE
INDIANA RESIDENTS.
IF YOU'RE GOING TO TELL ME
WALMART'S THE UNDERDOG WE'RE THE
ONLY STATE I THINK THAT WOULD
SAY THAT.
I WOULD AGREE THAT -- AND
THAT'S ABSURD.
AND IT'S PROBABLY ONE OF THE
MOST -- AGAIN, THIS SUBJECT,
THERE'S FACTS IN THIS AND THEN
THERE'S NONFACTS.
AND WHEN I WAS INTERVIEWED IN
LAFAYETTE, INDIANA, ABOUT THE
POWERFUL LOBBYISTS OF THE
PACKAGE LIQUOR STORE.
HE'S IT.
ONE GUY.
DO I NEED TO TELL YOU HOW MANY
LOBBYISTS THAT WALMART HAS, THAT
KROGER'S HAS, THAT BIG BOX HAS,
THAT CONVENIENCE STORES HAS?
ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME THAT
CAROL CASEY AND SOME OF THESE
SMALL BUSINESS PEOPLE IN
LAFAYETTE, INDIANA THAT I'VE
KNOWN MY WHOLE LIFE, JUST
HARD-WORKING INDIVIDUALS ARE
MORE POWERFUL THAN A BIG BOX, A
WALMART?
YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDIN' ME.
AND THE PRESS IS ONE, MY FEELING
IS VERY SIMPLE, THE REASON IT
HASN'T GOTTEN A HEARING AND THE
RECENT IT HASN'T WENT IN IS
MAYBE BECAUSE IT'S BEEN THE
RIGHT THING.
YOU KNOW, IT'S -- WE'RE NOT
DOING THIS, I'M NOT DOING THIS
FOR THE BIG-BOX STORES OR THE
PACKAGE LIQUOR STORES.
THESE TWO GROUPS NEED TO BE
ENGAGED IN THIS ISSUE.
AND THE SENATOR AND I ARE
WORKING VERY CLOSELY ON IT AND I
THINK BY THE END OF SESSION IF
THEY'RE A LITTLE UNHAPPY,
THEY'RE A LITTLE UNHAPPY WE
MIGHT HAVE GREAT LEGISLATION BUT
HOOSIERS ARE TALKING TO ME,
PEOPLE ARE TALKING TO ME SAYING
ISN'T IT TIME TO MODERNIZE?
WE HAVE SUNDAY SALES NOW, LET'S
NOT KID OURSELVES.
WE CAN GO TO A BREWERY AND
CARRYOUT.
YOU CAN GO TO A WINERY AND CARRY
OUT.
YOU CAN GO TO A RESTAURANT,
DRINK AT A RESTAURANT AND DRIVE
HOME AND YOU CAN GO TO A
STADIUM, DRINK, WATCH A GAME,
AND DRIVE HOME, BUT YOU CAN'T GO
AND CARRY OUT WHAT YOU CAN DO
SIX OTHER DAYS OF THE WEEK AND
CARRY HOME AND DRINK SAFELY.
I KNOW YOU'VE ALL SORT OF
ALLUDED TO THE NOTION OF THIS
BILL EVOLVING AND MOVING, NOAJ I
THINK SAID THE WORD COMPROMISE I
THINK BUT THAT WAS THE STRONG
SUGGESTION AND THERE ARE
LIMITATIONS IN THE BILL NOW, I
GUESS, THE HOURS AS IT STANDS
NOW 10 A.M. TO 6 P.M.
I SUPPOSE THAT COULD SHIFT NOW
BETWEEN NOW AND THE ULTIMATE
DECISION IF THIS BILL PREVAILS
OR NOT.
ALSO YOU WOULD GET LIQUOR STORE
OWNERS WHO TRADITIONAL HAVE A
SMALL NUMBER OF ITEMS THAT THEY
COULD SELL EXPAND THAT IN HOPES
OF GIVING THEM OTHER PRODUCT,
REVENUE STREAMS, IS THAT THE
IDEA?
WELL, I'VE HEARD THAT FROM
SOME MEMBERS AND PACKAGE LIQUOR
STORES IN THE PAST AND IT'S BEEN
MADE CLEAR TO ME AND PATRICK
WILL AGREE THAT THEY DON'T WANT
THAT.
FINE, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE THAT
OUT OF THE BILL, WE'RE GOING TO
REVIEW THE HOURS BUT I THINK THE
OTHER IMPORTANT PART OF IT AND
PATRICK BRINGS UP A POINT THAT
THEY HAVE CERTAIN REGULATIONS
THAT THEY HAVE TO FOLLOW TO SELL
THE ALCOHOL, I THINK --
THE TRAINING OF STAFF.
TRAINING OF WHO CAN WALK IN
THE STORE.
AND IT'S GREAT REACTION AND THEY
FOLLOW GREAT RULES.
I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT THAT
ACROSS THE BOARD, WHOEVER IS
CARRYING ALCOHOL AND OFFERING
ALCOHOL AND BE RESPONSIBLE AND
THAT'S THE KEY POINT HERE.
I THINK THE SUNDAY SALES IS
GOING TO END UP BEING A SIDE
POINT OF THIS BILL BUT IT'S AN
OPPORTUNITY FOR US IN INDIANA TO
SAY, HEY, WHAT IS APPROPRIATE
REACTION.
PALLET TRICK TAMM, IS THERE
NOTHING IN THERE THAT YOU FIND
AS POTENTIAL MIDDLE GROUND?
APPARENTLY THERE'S NOT AN
INTEREST IN EXPANDING THE --
I THINK THE CHAIRMEN SUMMED
UP OUR CONVERSATIONS PRETTY
SUCCINCTLY.
WE CAN'T CHANGE OUR BUSINESS
MODEL OVERNIGHT.
WE BY LAW, ARE NOT BE ABLE TO
LOCATED IN UNINCORPORATED AREAS.
WE CAN ONLY SELL 10 COMMODITY --
IT'S A COMMODITY LIST, 10 TIMES
ARE ON IT.
WE CAN'T CHANGE OUR MODEL
OVERNIGHT.
WE HAVE 5,000 SQUARE FEET
STORES, 2500 SQUARE FEET STORES,
MAYBE LARGER HERE AND THERE.
WHAT ARE WE GOING TO TAKE OUT OF
OUR STORES AND HAVE KELLOGG'S
CALL ON US.
WALMART'S PUT OUT THOSE STORES
ALREADY.
WE'VE RELIED ON THE BILL THAT WE
SELL ALCOHOL, THAT'S WHAT WE
SELL.
GRANT --
HOW CAN I SIT HERE AND LISTEN
TO THAT STUFF AND BELIEVE A
SINGLE WORD OF IT?
THESE LIQUOR STORE OWNERS HAVE
BEEN HIDING BEHIND INDIANA LAW
FOR DECADES AND THEY CONTINUE TO
DO SO.
THEY SAY THEY DON'T LIKE THE
COMMODITY RESTRICTION, BUT THEY
REALLY END UP DON'T WANT IT.
THEY SAY THEY CAN'T CHANGE THEIR
MODEL.
YES, THEY CAN.
RETAILING IS DYNAMIC AND IT'S
ALWAYS CHANGING AND OUR MEMBERS
ARE ALWAYS OUT THERE DOING
WHATEVER THEY CAN TO SERVE THEIR
CUSTOMERS BETTER AND LIQUOR
STORE OWNERS OUGHT TO BE DOING
THE SAME.
AND I THINK REPRESENTATIVE
DERMONDY'S BILL WILL GIVE THEM
THAT OPPORTUNITY TO FINALLY STEP
IN THE 21st CENTURY, SERVE THE
CUSTOMER, SERVE THE CUSTOMER
SEVEN DAYS A WEEK, AND I BELIEVE
THAT A RISING WILL SELL BOATS,
THAT LIQUOR STORE OWNERS WILL
PROFIT FROM THIS IN TERMS OF
INCREASED SALES AND INCREASED
OPPORTUNITY TO SERVE THE
CUSTOMER AS MUCH AS OUR MEMBERS
WILL.
RON ALL CONTINUING DO YOU
BELIEVE EVERYBODY NEEDS TO BE
NIMBLE AND AGILE IN THIS 21st
CENTURY ECONOMY?
THE DEBATE AS AN ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT BILL IS FALSE AND,
AGAIN, IT'S ONE OF THE FALLS
STATEMENTS OUT THERE.
IT MIGHT BE FOR BIG BOX,
OBVIOUSLY, AND IT WILL BE
BECAUSE IT'S A BIG SHOPPING DAY
FOR THEM.
BUT IN TERMS OF THE STATE AND
WHAT IT'S GOING TO BRING IN,
I'VE BEEN A CHAIRMAN --
TAX --
I'VE BEEN AROUND.
(OVERLAPPING SPEAKERS).
THE QUESTION HAS ALWAYS BEEN
WHY HASN'T THE FIRST HERE EVER
COME TO THE CHAIRMAN MILLER,
COORS, BUDWEISER IN ST. LOUIS
AND SAY WE REALLY SUPPORT SUNDAY
SALES.
WE'D LIKE FOR YOU TO HEAR THAT
BILL?
THEY NEVER HAVE.
AND THE REASON THEY HAVEN'T IN
MY CONVERSATIONS WITH THEM
BECAUSE STATES THAT HAVE DONE
THIS, THEY SELL -- THEY SELL THE
SAME AMOUNT IN SIX DAYS AS THEY
DO IN SEVEN SO THE SALES DOESN'T
GO UP ANYWHERE.
THAT'S ONE REASON WHY YOU'VE
NEVER HEARD OF -- YOU'RE NOT
GOING TO HEAR THEM TESTIFY IN
CHAIRMAN DERMONDY'S COMMITTEE
NOR IN THE SENATE.
SO IN TERMS OF IT BEING AN
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BILL, IT'S
NOT.
CONVENIENCE?
ABSOLUTELY.
AND I THINK THAT THIS IS ONE
REASON THIS IS FINALLY GOT AS
FAR AS IT HAS, BECAUSE THEY HAVE
BEEN BEATEN THE DOOR ON SO LONG
THAT THIS IS ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT, ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT.
AND MOST LEGISLATORS UNDERSTAND
IT'S NOT.
BUT WHAT YOU CANNOT ARGUE IS
THAT IT IS CONVENIENCE.
THAT'S WHEN THE CONSUMER IS
SHOPPING ON SUNDAY AND IT IS
CONVENIENT FOR THEM.
AND THAT'S A VALID POINT.
IT CERTAINLY IS A VALID POINT
AND WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO
BEAT THAT DRUM, SENATOR.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME YOU'VE GOT
10 -- ONE-THIRD OF THE STATE'S
POPULATION, A LITTLE OVER
2 MILLION PEOPLE LIVE IN BORDER
COUNTIES THAT BORDER STATES THAT
PERMIT SUNDAY SALES AND THOSE
PEOPLE ARE CROSSING THE STATE
LINE ON SUNDAY AND THEY'RE
BUYING THAT ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES
OUT OF STATE.
AND WE ARGUE THAT THEY'RE
TARIKING THEIR ENTIRE SHOPPING
LIST WITH THEM WHEN THEY DO
THAT.
I THINK THERE IS AN ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT COMPONENT TO THIS.
I THINK IT SAYS A LOT ABOUT WHAT
THE STATE CAN DO TO HELP
RETAILING CONTINUE TO GROW IN
THIS STATE BY BRINGING THOSE
PEOPLE BACK HOME ON SUNDAY
RATHER THAN FORCING THEM TO GO
OUT OF STATE TO MAKE THEIR
PURCHASES.
GRANT --
THAT'S WHAT I'M HEARING YOU
SAY IS WE HAVE 92 COUNTIES, SO
WE SHOULD DO PUBLIC POLICY BASED
UPON THREE -- POSSIBLY THREE OR
FOUR COUNTIES THAT IS IN OUR
BORDER STATES.
GRANT, THE -- YOU TALK
ABOUT --
DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.
34 BORDER COUNTIES THAT
BORDER INDIANA THAT BORDER
STATES THAT PERMIT SUNDAY SALES.
AND I THINK THOSE PEOPLE ARE
CROSSING THE STATE LINE TO
PURCHASE ON SUNDAY.
IT WOULD BE BETTER IF THOSE
SALES WERE RUNNING UP IN INDIANA
THAN IN OHIO OR MICHIGAN.
LET'S TALK ABOUT THOSE
STATES.
THEY'RE ALL LOCAL OPTION, GRANT.
ALL LOCAL OPTION SUNDAY SALES.
YOU STILL HAVE DRY COUNTIES IN
KENTUCKY.
YOU STILL HAVE DRY COUNTIES IN
ILLINOIS.
YOU HAVE REFERENDUMS IN OHIO
THAT KROGER WAS JUST FOUND
INDICTED BECAUSE YOU HAD INVALID
SIGNATURES SO YOU WANT TO
ESLOWED ALCOHOL, GRANT.
THEY'RE LOCAL OPTION.
DISCUS, LOOK AT YOUR OWN MAP,
IT'S THERE.
I LIKE THE FACT THAT WE'RE
DOING LEGISLATION FOR SOMEBODY
OUTSIDE OF MARION COUNTY BECAUSE
COMING FROM NORTHERN INDIANA, WE
SEEM TO DO NOTHING MORE THAN
LEGISLATION SPECIFIC TO MARION
COUNTY.
AND FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, I'VE
GOT A COUPLE PACKAGE LIQUOR
STORES THAT ARE GOING TO BE
COMING DOWN TESTIFYING IN
SUPPORT OF THE BILL BECAUSE,
AGAIN, THEY HAVE SIX MILES AWAY
NEW BUFFALO, MICHIGAN AND THESE
PEOPLE ARE SAYING, HEY, WE WANT
THE PEOPLE TO STAY AT HOME, I
AGREE WITH PATRICK THAT WE HAVE
TO HAVE THE LEGISLATION, WE'RE
NOT GOING TO BE IRRESPONSIBLE
AND I BELIEVE IT'S UP TO THE
SENATOR AND MYSELF TO MAKE SURE
THE LEGISLATION IS APPROPRIATE
BECAUSE I KNOW HE'S CLEAR ABOUT
IT AND I'M CLEAR WE DON'T WANT
UNDERAGE DRINKING OR
IRRESPONSIBLE DRINKING BUT LET'S
NOT IGNORE THE FACT THAT WE HAVE
SUNDAY SALES.
THIS SYMPATHY A
REPUBLICAN-DEMOCRATIC ISSUE,
THIS IS PERFECT EVIDENCE THIS
HAS MUCH MORE TO DO WITH
GEOGRAPHY AND RURAL
INVESTIGATORS URBAN AND OTHER
SORTS OF ISSUES --
THERE YOU GO, DON'T DO IT FOR
CONSUMERS IF YOU DON'T WANT TO.
DO IT FOR LIQUOR STORE OWNERS
WHO ARE IN BORDER COMMUNITIES
WHO KNOW THEY'RE LOSING SALES
EVERY SUNDAY.
SO THERE YOU GO.
THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO HELP
THE SMALL, INDEPENDENT LIQUOR
STORE OWNERS THAT PAT TAMM SAYS
HE'S CHAMPIONING, GIVE THEM AN
OPPORTUNITY TO INCREASE THEIR
SALES AND GROW ON SUNDAY.
LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THIS
CLICHE, ANOTHER ONE THAT COMES
UP THAT GOVERNMENT SHOULDN'T BE
IN THE BUSINESS OF PICKING
WINNERS AND LOSERS.
THAT CUTS BOTH WAYS.
IF THIS OPENED A BROADER
CROSS-SECTION OF RETAILERS,
PATRICK TAMM, I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN
QUOTED AS SAYING THAT'S PICKING
A WINNER AND A LOSER, YOUR
CLIENTS AND YOUR MEMBERS BEING
SECONDLY LOSERS BUT ISN'T THE
OPPOSITE TRUE TRUE?
ISN'T THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OR
EXISTING STATUTE PICKING A
WINNER IN THIS REGARD, TOO?
I MEAN, IS AN ARGUMENT -- LET
THE MARKET, YOU KNOW --
YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT --
WE'RE SELLING ALCOHOL IN A
REGULATED ENVIRONMENT.
ALCOHOL'S NOT IN A FREE MARKET.
NEVER HAS BEEN.
SO YOU HAVE TO REALIZE WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT ALCOHOL.
WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT
POP-TARTS.
WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT CEREAL.
WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT MILK.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ALCOHOL.
WE'RE SELLING TOBACCO BEHIND THE
COUNTER.
WE'RE SELLING COLD MEDICINE
BEHIND THE PHARMACY.
WHY ARE WE DOING THAT?
BECAUSE THOSE PRODUCTS CAN CAUSE
SOX HARM.
DON'T DISAGREE.
ALCOHOL CAN CAUSE PRETTY QUICK
HARM, CAN END LIVES, CAN HAVE
SOME TRAGIC IMPACT.
LET'S REFRAME WHERE THIS IS A
PUBLIC POLICY DECISION, HOW DO
YOU WANT TO SELL ALCOHOL, YOU
WANT TO SELL IT WILLY-NILLY ALL
OVER THE STORE LIKE WALMART DOES
AND ALL THE BIG BOX FOLKS DO OR
SELL IT IN A RESPONSIBLE MANNER?
GRANT IS IN A BLOOD THIRST
SEARCH FOR PROFITS.
WALMART WANTS TO BE A MARKET
LEADER NATIONALLY IN THE SALES
OF ALCOHOL.
THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.
THEY DON'T REALLY CARE HOW THEY
GET THERE.
THEY WANT TO GET THERE.
SO WHAT ARE THEY DOING?
THEY'RE SPENDING MILLIONS OF
DOLLARS ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO
ERODE AND DEEATING THE SALE OF
ALCOHOL.
OUR MEMBERS SELL ALCOHOLIC
BEVERAGES RESPONSIBLY SIX DAYS A
WEEK AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE
A.T.C.'S OWN RECORD LIQUOR STORE
OWNERS ARE MORE LIKELY TO SELL
TO MINORS THAN DRUG AND GROCERY
STORE OPERATORS ARE AND THAT'S A
CONSISTENT FACT.
THEY CONSTANTLY SELL MORE TO
MINORS THAN OUR MEMBERS DO.
(OVERLAPPING SPEAKERS).
YOU JUST TALK ABOUT
REGULATION ALL YOU WANT BUT THE
FACT IS WE'VE GOT RESPONSIBLE
CORPORATE CITIZENS WHO ARE
OPERATING STORES WHERE PEOPLE
WANT TO SHOP.
BUT THE BIG BOXES, THEY
EMPLOY HOOSIERS.
AND THEN ALSO PATRICK REPRESENTS
SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS, I'M A
SMALL BUSINESS OWNER.
I KNOW HOW DIFFICULT IT IS AND
THEY'RE UNDER GREAT REGULATION.
AND FROM THE A.T. C.'S
PERSPECTIVE, HOW DIFFICULT IS IT
TO MONITOR A BIG BOX STORE THAT
ALLOWS UNDERAGE INDIVIDUALS IN
THERE TO DECIDE WHO'S VIOLATING
AND WHO'S NOT WHERE IT'S CLEAR
IN A PACKAGE CLICK LIQUOR STORE,
HEY, YOU HAVE TO BE 21.
IT'S EASY, I BELIEVE, AND YOU
CAN AGREE OR DISAGREE TO FIND
THOSE VIOLATIONS IN A PACKAGE
LIQUOR STORE.
THE CHAIRMAN IS RIGHT.
THE CHAIRMAN IS ALWAYS RIGHT.
THE CHAIRMAN IS ALWAYS RIGHT.
[LAUGHTER]
I HOPE OUR COLLEAGUES
UNDERSTAND THAT.
[LAUGHTER]
ANYONE HOW, BECAUSE WHEN YOU
COME OUT OF A PACKAGE LIQUOR
STORE YOU'RE ONLY CARRYING
ALCOHOL, THERE'S NO SECRET.
WHEN YOU COME OUT OF A BIG BOX
THERE COULD BE MILKICS BREAD,
YATTA, YATTA, YATTA, YOU CAN'T
STOP EVERYONE TO LET ME LOOK IN
THEIR SACK.
GRANT'S RIGHT IN TERMS OF THE
VIOLATIONS BUT EVEN IF YOU MEET
WITH THE A.T.C. THE CHAIRMAN'S
EXACTLY RIGHT IT'S A MATTER OF
HOOSIER CUSTOMERS.
WHERE JUDGE YOUNG CAME DOWN
ON THIS IN A COLD BEER CASE.
SAME LINE.
JUDGE YOUNG CALLED IT MISPLACED,
IRRELEVANT.
BECAUSE WE'RE UNDER MUCH
STRICTER REGULATIONS, WE HAVE
PROBABLE CAUSE COMING OUT OF OUR
STORES.
JUDGE YOUNG, MISPLACED AND
IRRELEVANT.
I'M GETTING THE SIGNAL IT'S
LAST CALL FOR US, TURN THE
LIGHTS OFF PRETTY SOON, DIDN'T
GET TO LINE SALES AND MICRO
BREWERIES.
TIME FLIES WHEN YOU'RE TALKING
TO SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO
HOOSIERS ON THIS ISSUE
AGAIN, MY GUESTS HAVE BEEN
REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE TOM
DERMODY OF LAPORTE
REPUBLICAN SENATOR RON ALTING
OF LAFAYETTE GRANT MONAHAN
OF THE INDIANA RETAIL COUNCIL
AND PATRICK TAMM OF THE
INDIANA ASSOCIATION OF
BEVERAGE RETAILERS.
DOES FREEDOM OF RELIGION
INCLUDE FREEDOM FROM RELIGION?
WHEN DO MY BELIEFS TRUMP YOURS?
ON THE NEXT INDIANA LAWMAKERS.
TIME NOW FOR MY WEEKLY
CONVERSATION WITH ED
FEIGENBAUM, PUBLISHER OF THE
NEWSLETTER INDIANA LEGISLATIVE
INSIGHT
ED, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS
DEBATE?
I DON'T THINK THIS IS A
CONVERSATION, I THINK WE OUGHT
TO CALL IT HAPPY HOUR HERE.
WE SAW SOME VERY INTERESTING
INTERCHANGE OBVIOUSLY DURING THE
ROUND TABLE BUT I THINK WHAT YOU
NEED TO DO IS STEP BACK AND LOOK
AT WHERE WE'D BE IF WE WERE
STARTING FROM SCRATCH.
NOW, OBVIOUSLY, THE LEGISLATURE
CAN'T DO THAT BUT I THINK
EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS THAT IF WE
WERE SETTING UP A REGULATORY
SYSTEM TODAY, IT WOULD NOT LOOK
ANYTHING LIKE WHAT WE HAVE
TODAY, WHAT IT'S EVOLVED INTO,
WHAT IT STARTED OUT AS, YOU
KNOW, JUST AFTER THE PROHIBITION
AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE
IN THE BACK OF THEIR MINDS THAT
GIVEN THAT WE WOULDN'T DO IT
TODAY IF WE WERE TO START OUT
AGAIN TODAY, THAT MAYBE IT IS
TIME FOR SOME CHANGES.
BUT WE VOTE AS A STATE,
HAMSTRUNG IS A LOADED WORD, BY
HISTORY SOME WOULD SAY THAT'S
GOOD POLICY BUT CLEARLY HISTORY
BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN A
VACUUM WILL HELP SHAPE THIS
DEBATE MOVING FORWARD?
SURE, AND SO WILL -- WE'LL
PUT OUR CONCEPT OF WHAT THE
FUTURE OUGHT TO BE.
AND THERE ARE A BUNCH OF OTHER
ITEMS UNDER THAT REBRICK WITH
RESPECT TO ALCOHOL ARREST AS
WELL.
DIVE IN WITH THOSE, WE WANT,
OF COURSE WINE SHIPMENTS.
SURE THE DIRECT-TO-CONSUMER
WINE SHIPMENT THING, THE
REQUIREMENT TO HAVE FACE-TO-FACE
CONTACT.
AGAIN, MAYBE A BIT ANACHRONISTIC
WE WOULDN'T TODAY IF WE WOULD
START FROM SCRATCH REGULATING.
THERE ARE THINGS THAT WE'VE DONE
EVEN OVER THE PAST DECADE WITH
RESPECT TO THE SMALL CRAFT
BREWERIES AND THE LIMITS THAT
WERE IMPOSED ON THEM THAT WE
MIGHT NOT DO IF WE STARTED AGAIN
FROM SCRATCH TODAY.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU'VE GOT
A SYSTEM, YOU'VE GOT A RUBRIC,
YOU'VE GOT A FRAMEWORK, AS
PATRICK TAMM POINTED OUT, THAT
HAS WORKED FOR THE STATE FOR SO
LONG AND IF YOU START MAKING
SOME SMALL CHANGES, LIKE, FOR
EXAMPLE, BUMPING UP THE CAP FOR
THE SMALL BREWERIES, THEN YOU
RUN UP AGAINST SOME OF THE OTHER
SYSTEMS LIKE THE THREE-TIER
DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM WHICH IS
IMPORTANT NOT ONLY IN INDIANA
BUT ACROSS --
CONSTERNATION OF THE INDIANA
LIQUOR LAWS, TO SOME EXTENT.
ABSOLUTELY.
THEN YOU BRING IN ALL FORMS OF
REGULATION AND WE'RE LOOKING AT
THESE KINDS OF THINGS WITH
RESPECT TO OTHER AREAS LIKE WHEN
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AUTO SALES,
FOR EXAMPLE, THAT THE
REQUIREMENT THAT YOU HAVE A CAR
DEALER BE OR YOUR DIRECTOR AS
OPPOSED TO DIRECT CONSUMER CAR
SALES.
INTERESTING STUFF.
WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT THIS,
AGAIN, THIS SEASON, I AM SURE.
LOTS ON TAP.
ED, THANK YOU, AS ALWAYS FOR
YOUR INSIGHT
WELL, THAT CONCLUDES
ANOTHER EDITION OF "INDIANA
LAWMAKERS".
I'M JON SCHWANTES, AND, ON
BEHALF OF WFYI PUBLIC MEDIA
AND INDIANA'S OTHER
PUBLIC-BROADCASTING STATIONS,
I THANK YOU FOR JOINING US
AND I INVITE YOU TO VISIT
WFYI.org.
UNTIL NEXT WEEK TAKE CARE