WHAT'S SHAPING UP TO BE ONE

OF THE MOST DIVISIVE ISSUES OF

THE 2015 GENERAL ASSEMBLY WASN'T

EVEN ON THE RADAR WHEN THE

SESSION BEGAN BACK IN JANUARY.

INDIANA'S SO-CALLED "COMMON

CONSTRUCTION WAGE" HAS BEEN

AROUND, IN ONE FORM OR ANOTHER,

SINCE 1935, SO THE EFFORT TO DO

AWAY WITH IT CAME AS A SURPRISE

TO GROUPS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE

ISSUE.

HI, I'M JON SCHWANTES, AND ON

THIS EDITION OF "INDIANA

LAWMAKERS," WE'LL DO OUR BEST TO

BRING YOU UP TO SPEED ON THE

RAPIDLY UNFOLDING DISPUTE.

HERE'S JILL SHERIDAN OF WFYI

NEWS WITH ADDITIONAL DETAILS.

THE RIGHT TO WORK PROPOSAL

ROCKED THE INDIANA STATEHOUSE IN

2011, WHEN THOUSANDS OF UNION

WORKERS DESCENDED HERE AND

DEMOCRATS WALKED OUT FOR OVER A

MONTH.

THIS SESSION THE DEBATE OVER A

MEASURE THAT COULD AFFECT

SKILLED WORKERS IN INDIANA IS

JUST HEATING UP.

INDIANA'S COMMON CONSTRUCTION

WAGE, ALSO KNOWN AS A PREVAILING

WAGE, SETS PAY RATES FOR PUBLIC

WORKS PROJECTS COSTING OVER

$350,000, INCLUDING JOBS LIKE

SCHOOLS AND ROADS.

A COUNTY COMMITTEE SETS THE

WAGES BASED ON PAST JOBS AND

WHAT OTHER SKILLED WORKERS IN

THE AREA ARE MAKING.

HOUSE BILL 1019 WOULD REPEAL THE

80-YEAR-OLD COMMON CONSTRUCTION

WAGE LAW, A MOVE THAT OPPONENTS

SAY WILL HURT THE HOOSIER

CONSTRUCTION MARKET.

PAUL NYSEWANDER, INDIANA MASON

CONTRACTORS ASSOCIATION,

EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, SAYS THE

CURRENT LAW IS GOOD FOR THE

HOOSIER STATE.

STUDIES SHOW THAT STATES WITH

A COMMON CONSTRUCTION WAGE LAW

HAVE MORE OF THEIR WORK

COMPLETED BY IN-STATE

CONTRACTORS.

THAN OTHER STATES WITHOUT A

CONSTRUCTION WAGE LAW.

IN OTHER WORDS IF THIS LAW IS

REPEALED, WE'RE GOING TO SEE

INDIANA TAX DOLLARS PAID TO

OUT-OF-STATE CONTRACTORS TO DO

INDIANA JOBS, AND THAT'S JUST

NOT RIGHT.

1019 COULD SAVE TAXPAYERS UP TO

SUPPORTERS SAY HOUSE BILL

1019 COULD SAVE TAXPAYERS UP TO

20% ON STATE-FUNDED PROJECTS,

BUT OPPONENTS SAY THAT'S NOT

POSSIBLE BECAUSE LABOR MAKES UP

ONLY A QUARTER OF OVERALL COSTS.

BUT, J.R. GAYLOR, PRESIDENT OF

ASSOCIATED BUILDERS AND

CONTRACTORS OF INDIANA SAYS THE

SAVINGS ARE STILL ENOUGH TO

JUSTIFY A REPEAL.

WHY SHOULD THEY HAVE TO PAY

AN ARBITRARY PREMIUM WHEN, IN

FACT, THE BUILDING IS BUILT,

JUST LIKE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR,

WITH TRAINED PEOPLE, SAFE

PEOPLE, BONDING, BUT YET THERE'S

THIS PREMIUM OF COSTS ADDED TO

THESE PROJECTS.

SO THAT'S THE PROCESS THAT WE

THINK NEEDS TO BE REPEALED.

THOUGH THE ISSUE MAY NOT BE

AS VOLATILE AS RIGHT TO WORK,

MORE UNION PROTESTS COULD BE IN

STORE BEFORE THE SESSION WRAPS

UP.

THE COMMON CONSTRUCTION WAGE

BILL PASSED THE HOUSE LAST

MONTH AND WAS REFERRED TO A

SENATE COMMITTEE.

A HEARING HAS YET TO BE

SCHEDULED.

FOR "INDIANA LAWMAKERS," I'M

JILL SHERIDAN.

THANKS, JILL.

BACK IN A MOMENT WITH OUR WEEKLY

ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION.

"INDIANA LAWMAKERS" FROM THE

THE CONCEPT OF REQUIRING

CONTRACTORS TO PAY LOCALLY SET

WAGES FOR WORK DONE ON PUBLIC

PROJECTS IS WELL ESTABLISHED.

CONGRESS EMBRACED THE APPROACH

IN 1931 WITH THE PASSAGE OF THE

DAVIS-BACON ACT, AND, BY THE

LATE 1970S, ALL BUT A HANDFUL OF

STATES HAD ADOPTED SIMILAR

MEASURES -- SOMETIMES REFERRED

TO AS LITTLE DAVIS-BACON LAWS.

IN THE 1980S, HOWEVER, STATES

BEGAN TO REPEAL THE WAGE

GUIDELINES.

32 STATES STILL HAVE

PREVAILING-WAGE REQUIREMENTS ON

THE BOOKS, BUT THE MEASURES ARE

CURRENTLY UNDER ATTACK IN A

NUMBER OF STATES, INCLUDING

MICHIGAN, WISCONSIN, AND WEST

VIRGINIA.

HERE TO DISCUSS THE REPEAL

DEBATE NOW RAGING IN INDIANA ARE

REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE JERRY

TORR OF CARMEL, THE AUTHOR OF

HOUSE BILL 1019, WHICH WOULD DO

AWAY WITH THE STATE'S COMMON

CONSTRUCTION WAGE.

DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVE DAVID

NIEZGODSKI OF SOUTH BEND,

CO-OWNER OF A THIRD-GENERATION

PLUMBING BUSINESS AND A STAUNCH

SUPPORTER OF ORGANIZED LABOR.

KEVIN BRINEGAR, PRESIDENT AND

CEO OF THE INDIANA CHAMBER OF

COMMERCE, WHICH HAS ADDED HOUSE

BILL 1019 TO ITS LEGISLATIVE

AGENDA.

AND, REPRESENTING THE INDIANA

BUILDING CONTRACTORS ALLIANCE,

JEFF HAGERMAN, CHAIRMAN OF THE

HAGERMAN GROUP, A 107-YEAR-OLD

PRIVATELY OWNED CONSTRUCTION

COMPANY WITH OFFICES IN FISHERS

AND FORT WAYNE.

AND I THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING

HERE.

YOU'RE GOING TO DO MOST OF THE

TALKING BECAUSE MY VOICE IS

GOING TO GIVE OUT AT SOME POINT.

WE'LL START WITH YOU, WHY AFTER

80 YEARS HAS THIS LAW BEEN ON

THE BOOKS?

GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN UNDER

PRESSURE WITH PROPERTY TAX CAPS,

THEY NEED TO SCRAPE FOR EVERY

DIME THEY HAVE.

WE HEARD TESTIMONY IN COMMITTEE

IT'S NOT SAFE R SAVE MONEY BY

ADOPTING A COMMON CONSTRUCTION

WAGE, IT'S NOT THAT THAT MONEY

WILL BE SAVED SO MUCH AS THEY'LL

BE ABLE TO DO MORE PROJECTS

BECAUSE THEY HAVE MORE PROJECTS

CURRENTLY THAN THEY CAN AFFORD

AT MANY LOCAL GOVERNMENTS.

AND THE FIGURE THAT YOU'VE

USED ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS THIS

SESSION IS 10-20%, IS THAT --

THE EXPERIENCE WE'VE SEEN

WHAT'S HAPPENED, AS YOU

MENTIONED OTHER STATES REPEALED,

TENNESSEE REPEALED A FEW YEARS

AGO, OVER 10 YEARS AGO OHIO

APPEALED ITS PREVAILING WAGE FOR

PUBLIC SCHOOL PROJECTS SO WE'VE

GOT SOME PLACES TO LOOK AND SEE

WHAT THE EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN.

AND THAT'S JUST BEEN THE -- BEEN

THE NORM SOMEWHERE BETWEEN

10-20% JUST BECAUSE OF MORE

COMPETITION, MORE FREE,

OPEN-MARKET BIDDING.

I'M GUESSING WE'RE GOING TO

HAVE A BATTLE OF NUMBERS AND

STATISTICS HERE BECAUSE PEOPLE

WHO ARE OPPOSED TO THIS, DAVID

NIEZGODSKI, ARE SAYING IT COULD

BE A HIT AS MUCH AS FACING

$20 MILLION IN TERMS OF NEGATIVE

IMPACT ON LOCAL COFFERS, THE

VERY PEOPLE, JERRY TORR, THAT

YOU SAY NEED THE EXTRA HELP.

WHICH IS IT?

YES, THANKS.

I THINK IT SHOULD BE A -- IT

COULD BE A BIGGER HIT THAN THAT.

THE WAY IT IS IT EMPLOYS LOWER

CONTRACTORS, LOCAL EMPLOYEES AND

PUTS THEM TO WORK IN LOCAL

COMMUNITIES WHICH HAS THEM SPEND

THEIR DOLLARS IN LOCAL

COMMUNITIES.

IF THAT DOESN'T TAKE PLACE AND

YOU GO SIMPLY FOR THE LOWEST BID

AND YOU DON'T HAVE A PREVAILING

WAGE THAT IS SET IN ACCORDANCE

TO A LOCAL COMMUNITY THEN YOU

HAVE A VERY STRONG CHANCE YOU'LL

HAVE OUT-OF-STATE CONTRACTORS

BIDDING FOR THESE JOBS, IN MANY

CASES WHEN THEY GET THOSE KIND

OF JOBS WHAT YOU START TO SEE

ALSO IS THE MISCLASSIFICATION OF

EMPLOYEES.

SO IF YOU'VE GOT OUT-OF-STATE

CONTRACTORS BRINGING

OUT-OF-STATE EMPLOYEES ON THE

JOB THE CONTRACTORS AREN'T

PAYING TAXES, IN MANY CASES THE

EMPLOYEES ARE GOING TO GO BRACK

HOME AND NOT GOING TO PAY ANY

TAXES, YOU'VE GOT NOTHING THAT'S

GOING TO BE LEFT IN THE LOCAL

COMMUNITY.

PRESUMABLY THEY'LL PAY TAXES

BUT --

PRESUMABLY BUT IN MANY CASES

THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

BECAUSE IN MANY CASES THEY DON'T

REALIZE THEY'RE GETTING 1099 AND

AT THE END OF THE YEAR THEY

REALIZE, OH, MY GOSH TAX IS UPON

ME.

IN THE BOTTOM LINE LOSS OF TAX

REVENUE TO THE STATE AND THE

COMMUNITY AND IN THE END WHEN

THEY TALK ABOUT THE ARGUMENT ON

THE OTHER SIDE IT'S GOING TO

BENEFIT TAXPAYERS, I THINK

TAXPAYERS ARE GOING TO BE THE

ONES LEFT HOLDING THE BAG AND

IT'S GOING TO BE EMPTY BAG AT

THE END OF THE DAY.

YOU MENTIONED THE

PREDOMINANCE OF LOCAL

INDIVIDUALS.

96%, IS THAT THE FIGURE YOU'VE

USED?

I'VE SEEN THAT BANDIED ABOUT

CURRENTLY, 90% IN-STATE LABOR.

THAT CAN VARY.

IT'S SOMETHING VERY INTERESTING

YOU CAN TALK ABOUT BECAUSE ON A

LOT OF THESE PROJECTS PEOPLE

WILL ALLOW PROJECT LABOR

AGREEMENTS AND THERE'S BEEN A

LOT OF TALK ABOUT THAT ALSO.

THIS IS AN ASPECT THAT IS VERY,

VERY INTERESTING BECAUSE THAT'S

WHERE IT REALLY TAKES INTO THE

REAL NUTS AND BOLTS, IT'S NOT A

UNION OR NONUNION ISSUE

WHATSOEVER.

ON THESE LABOR AGREEMENTS

WHATEVER AGREEMENT IS STRUCK,

FRICTION THE INDY PROJECTS LIKE

THE ESKENAZI HOSPITAL, LUCAS

OIL, ON THOSE PROJECTS, 40% OF

THE CONTRACTORS ON THOSE JOBS

WERE NONUNION CONTRACTORS AND

THOSE CONTRACTORS ALSO WERE ABLE

TO UTILIZE THEIR OWN WORK

FORCES.

SO YOU -- IT'S AGREEMENT

WHATEVER YOU COME UP WITH TO DO.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS IT IS LOCAL

WAGES THAT ARE PREVAILING AND IN

THAT AREA FOR THE DOLLARS THAT

ARE SPENT ON THOSE PROJECTS.

WELL, ACTUALLY --

ALL RIGHT, GO AHEAD AND THEN

WE'RE GOING TO LET OUR OTHER

GUEST JUMP IN, GO AHEAD.

THERE IS REALLY NOTHING IN

THE CONSTRUCTION WAGE SYSTEM

THAT GUARANTEES OR EVEN BEGINS

TO ENSURE THAT IT'S GOING TO BE

LOCAL LABOR AND IT'S NOT ALWAYS,

THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

AND THE CONCERNS ABOUT THE

MISCLASSIFICATION AND ALL OF

THAT, AGAIN, THAT HAS NOT BEEN

THE EXPERIENCE IN THE OTHER

STATES.

THE 90% FIGURE, IS THAT -- DO

YOU BUY THAT, THOUGH?

THAT TO DATE WE GENERALLY SEE

ABOUT 90% OF WORKERS ON THESE

PROJECTS THAT GO THROUGH THE

COMMON WAGE ESTABLISHMENT OF

THOSE -- THOSE WAGE SCALES THAT

THEY ARE, IN FACT, IN-STATE

WORKERS?

I SUSPECT THAT'S PROBABLY

TRUE.

WHEN YOU HAVE A LOT OF PROJECTS

LIKE LUCAS OIL AND ESKENAZI, A

LOT OF THINGS GOING ON, THERE

AREN'T ENOUGH WORKERS AND SO

THEY'RE ALWAYS GOING TO -- WHEN

YOU'VE GOT THAT KIND OF WORK

GOING ON THERE WILL ALWAYS BE

PEOPLE COMING FROM OUT OF STATE

TO WORK ON IT.

KEVIN BRINEGAR, THIS IS PART

OF YOUR ORGANIZATION'S AGENDA

NOW BUT IT WASN'T AS OF A FEW

MONTHS AGO.

THAT'S NOT CORRECT, JON.

WE HAVE POSITION CALLING FOR THE

REPEAL OF THIS LAW.

SINCE YOU WERE BORN,

BEFORE --

AT LEAST --

DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS GOING TO

HAPPEN THIS SESSION, RIGHT?

NO, BUT BECAUSE WE HAVE IT AS

A POSITION, IF AN ISSUE COMES

UP, THEN WE MOVE ON IT.

TO TOUCH ON THE OUT-OF-STATE

WORKER ISSUE, IT'S CURIOUS TO ME

THAT THE CONCERN ABOUT IF WE

HAVE OPEN AND COMPETITIVE

BIDDING RATHER THAN

GOVERNMENT-MANDATED MINIMUM

WAGES TO BE PAID ON PUBLIC

CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS, THAT

OUT-OF-STATE PEOPLE WILL COME

IN, WHEN WE HAD EIGHT TO 10

YEARS AGO THE THREE MASSIVE

PROJECTS HERE IN INDIANAPOLIS,

WE HAD JUST THE OPPOSITE HAPPEN,

WE HAD LUCAS OIL STADIUM, THE

CONVENTION CENTER EXPANSION AND

THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE NEW

INDIANAPOLIS AIRPORT, AND THOSE

WERE ALL SET AT THE UNION WAGE

WITH PROJECT LABOR AGREEMENTS

THAT LIMITED THE ABILITY OF

NONUNION CONTRACTORS TO

PARTICIPATE OTHER THAN ON THE

VERY SMALL PARTS 'CAUSE THERE

WAS A -- I THINK A $250,000

LIMIT, THEY RAN OUT OF UNION

WORKERS, AND INSTEAD OF GOING TO

SKILLED, ABLE-BODY HOOSIERS WHO

COULD HAVE -- WERE HERE AND

COULD HAVE WORKED ON THOSE

PROJECTS THEY BROUGHT IN SOME

4,000 UNION WORKERS FROM

ILLINOIS, OHIO AND KENTUCKY AND

THEY TOOK OUR TAX DOLLARS BACK

TO THEIR STATES AND SPENT THEM.

FOURTH GENERATION OF YOUR

COMPANY'S LEADERSHIP, JEFF

HAGERMAN.

YOU DO THIS EVERY DAY, SOME

PEOPLE MIGHT SAY WHY WOULD HE BE

ON THE SIDE OPPOSING THIS?

BUT YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT YOUR

WORKFORCE, I PRESUME.

WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT IS A

BIG THING AND I'M GOING TO TOUCH

ON THAT, I'D LIKE TO COMMENT ON

KEVIN'S FACTS.

THE 4,000, I DON'T KNOW WHERE

THAT NUMBER CAME FROM.

I WAS A PART OF ALL OF THE

PROJECTS THAT KEVIN JUST

MENTIONED, AND THE MAJORITY OF

THE FOLKS ON THOSE PROJECTS WERE

HOOSIERS FOLK.

AND QUITE A FEW, AS DAVID

MENTIONED, IN NONUNION ENTITIES

BECAUSE THEY DO HAVE THE RIGHT

TO BE A PART OF P.L.A. PROJECTS,

SOME CHOSE NOT TO BECAUSE THEY

DECIDED TO FIGHT THAT

ARRANGE: THAT'S A BUSINESS

CHOICE THAT THEY MADE WHICH IS

UP TO THEM.

BUT YOU DON'T BUY THE NOTION

THAT THERE'S A LIMITED SUPPLY

OR --

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

-- OR THERE'S ALMOST A NEED

TO GO OUTSIDE.

THE CHALLENGE WE HAVE, FROM

YOU MY PERSPECTIVE, THE

CHALLENGE WE HAVE MOVING FORWARD

IF THIS LAW GETS REPEALED IS

THAT WE HAVE SET A PRECEDENT

WITHIN THIS STATE.

WE HAVE -- WE ALREADY HAVE, AND

HAVE FOR 10-15 YEARS, STRUGGLED

TO FIND PEOPLE TO JOIN OUR WORK

FORCES AT THE SKILLED LEVEL.

THIS, TO ME, IS NOT A

UNION-NONUNION THING, IT NEVER

HAS BEEN.

I THINK THIS IS GOING TO IMPACT

ALL INDIANA CONTRACTORS

SIGNIFICANTLY, FROM A FEW

STANDPOINTS.

NUMBER ONE, THEY'RE GOING TO --

AGAIN, WE'VE SET A PRECEDENT

WITH RESPECT TO TRAINING AND

DEVELOPING SKILLED LABOR, UNION

SITES WITH THE APPRENTICE

PROGRAM AS WELL AS THE NONUNION

SITES THAT I KNOW COMPANIES THAT

SPEND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF

DOLLARS TO IMPROVE THEIR SKILLED

WORKFORCE.

$14 MILLION A YEAR IS THE

FIGURE I --

$14 MILLION A YEAR

APPRENTICESHIP AND THOSE PEOPLE

ALSO OBTAIN A TWO-YEAR DEGREE

FROM IVY TECH ONCE THEY

GRADUATE.

SO WE'RE IMPROVING THE LIVES OF

HOOSIERS WHO ARE GOING TO STAY,

WORK, PAY TAXES WITHIN THE

STATE.

DOES THAT PROGRAM DISAPPEAR,

I MEAN, THAT APPRENTICESHIP --

YOU JUST HAD YOUR 10,000th

GRADUATE, I BELIEVE, AT THE

STATEHOUSE RALLY LAST WEEK, DOES

THAT PROGRAM DISAPPEAR?

GO AHEAD.

I WAS GOING TO SAY, I THINK

THAT'S A VERY GOOD POINT BECAUSE

RIGHT NOW WITH THE PREVAILING

WAGES, CONTRACTORS ARE THE ONES

THAT ARE PAYING FOR THE

APPRENTICESHIP PROGRAMS, THEY'RE

PAYING FOR THE EXTRA BENEFITS,

THEY'RE PAYING FOR HEALTH

INSURANCE.

ALL THOSE THINGS ARE COVERED

WITHIN THOSE WAGES.

AND, AS YOU SAID, $42 MILLION ON

AN ANNUAL BASIS ARE PUT INTO

TRAINING PROGRAMS.

THOSE DOLLARS ALL COME FROM

PREVAILING WAGES.

NOW, IF YOU DO AWAY WITH THAT,

AND YOU'RE GOING TO GO SIMPLY TO

WHAT THEY'RE REFERRING AS THE

LOWEST BID JOB THERE'S NO TALK

ABOUT ANYONE THAT'S GOING TO PUT

FORTH ANY DOLLARS FOR TRAINING,

THERE'S NO TALK WHATSOEVER

ABOUT --

THIS IS WHAT I LOVE ABOUT

THIS, AND I KNOW THERE'S BEEN A

LOT OF MENTION ABOUT FREE MARKET

AND WE DO NOT LIVE IN A FREE

MARKET SOCIETY IN INDIANA TODAY.

I MEAN, THE PUBLIC BID LAWS

RESTRICT THE FREE MARKET

OPPORTUNITIES.

I MEAN, IF YOU ARE ABLE TO

PROVIDE A BOND AND YOU ARE ABLE

TO PROVIDE AND FILL OUT THE

PAPERWORK APPROPRIATELY, I DON'T

CARE WHERE YOU ARE IN THIS

COUNTRY, YOU CAN DO WORK IN

INDIANA.

NOW, IF YOU APPEAL THIS LAW --

AND I'VE SEEN IT ACROSS THIS

COUNTRY -- THERE ARE A LOT OF

FIRMS OUT THERE THAT PAY

SIGNIFICANTLY LESS THAN NOT ONLY

THE UNION RATES, BUT THE

NONUNION RATES WITHIN THE STATE.

SO ALL CONSTRUCTION COMPANIES

ARE GOING TO SUFFER WHEN THE OUT

OF STATE INFLUX COMES IN, AND,

AGAIN, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE,

ONE OF THE BIGGEST ISSUES FOR ME

WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT.

RESPOND TO THAT.

IS WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT GOING

OUT THE WINDOW?

I MET WITH UNION CONTRACTORS,

JEFF WASN'T THERE BUT SOME OF

HIS BRETHREN LAST FALL AND ASKED

THEM HOW MUCH OF YOUR WORK IS

PRIVATE WORK AND IT VARIED BUT

IT WAS FROM ABOUT 50% TO 85.

AND THEY SAID, WELL, PRIVATE

DOESN'T HAVE TO TAKE THE LOWEST

BID.

BUT LET'S FACE IT BUSINESS

PEOPLE WHO ARE BUILDING

BUILDINGS FOR THEIR BUSINESS ARE

USUALLY PRETTY COST-CONSCIOUS.

EVEN IN INDIANA WHERE -- LIKE IN

HAMILTON COUNTY WHERE THEY

TYPICALLY ADOPT A NONUNION WAGE

WITH THE WAGE PANEL YET THERE'S

STILL UNION CONTRACTORS THAT ARE

ABLE TO WIN THOSE BIDS AND I

THINK THAT WILL CONTINUE AND JON

SOMETHING ELSE I THINK IS

IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT

THEY ALSO HAVE THIS -- THE

UNIONS HAVE THIS MARKET RECOVERY

FUND, SOME OF THEM CALL IT.

IT GOES BY DIFFERENT NAMES.

BUT ON PUBLIC PROJECTS, THE

WORKERS PAY -- LAST CONTRACT I

SAW WAS AROUND A QUARTER.

BUT THEY PAY INTO A FUND THAT

THE UNION COLLECTS, AND THEN,

WHEN A UNION CONTRACTOR IS

BIDDING ON A PRIVATE JOB AND IT

HAS STIFF COMPETITION FROM A

NONUNION CONTRACTOR, THE UNION

WILL ALLOW THOSE FUNDS TO BE

USED TO SUBSIDIZE THE BID.

SO YOU LITERALLY HAVE TAXPAYERS

ON PUBLIC PROJECTS SUBSIDIZING

PRIVATE CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS.

ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE.

THAT'S NOT TRUE.

AND I DEAL WITH MARKET RECOVERY

ON A LOT OF PROJECTS.

THAT'S NOT --

I'VE HAD CONTRACTORS TELL

ME -- BUT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND

THE CONCEPT, I DON'T THINK.

THOSE DOLLARS ARE DOLLARS THAT

ARE GIVEN BY THOSE EMPLOYEES.

AND THOSE EMPLOYEES -- IN A LOT

OF CASES THEY WEREN'T MAKING

PREVAILING WAGES AT THE TIME.

IT MAY HAVE BEEN ON ANY OTHER

HOST OF JOBS THEY MADE, IT'S OFF

THEIR SALARY, THOSE EMPLOYEES

HAVE SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE'RE

GOING TO CONTRIBUTE A LITTLE BIT

AND WE'RE GOING TO PUT BACK INTO

THE SYSTEM.

IT'S GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH

OTHER TAXPAYERS' DOLLARS WHICH I

THINK RAISES A REALLY GOOD POINT

HERE.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THINGS --

USE UNION -- OR PRIVATE

PROJECTS, RIGHT?

ON ANY PROJECTS WHATSOEVER IN

A PERSON'S WAGE THAT DOESN'T

MEAN THEY'RE ALWAYS GETTING

PREVAILING WAGES, IF THEY'RE

GETTING NORMAL WAGES AND THEY

DECIDE THAT OUT OF MY HOURLY

TAKEIN I WANT TO PUT A QUARTER

OF EVERY HOUR INTO THAT TO HELP

FUND OUR WHOLE SYSTEM THAT'S NOT

A WAY TO OUTBID OR OUTCLASS

ANOTHER BIDDER.

THAT'S NOT WHAT THAT'S ABOUT.

WHAT I DO WANT TO RAISE HERE,

THOUGH, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT YOU

DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO HURT

WHAT I THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN

ULTIMATELY BECAUSE IF YOU --

HOPEFULLY YOU WON'T DISAGREE,

NONPARTISAN ARM, LEGISLATIVE

SERVICES, HAS EVEN SAID RIGHT

NOW IF YOU'RE GOING TO BID THESE

PROJECTS IT'S GOING TO BE REALLY

HARD TO GET THE WINNING BID

UNLESS YOU LOWER WAGES.

LOWERING WAGES IS THE ONE TRUE

WAY YOU'RE GOING TO GET THE

LOWERING OF SAVINGS AND IF YOU

DO THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BRING IN

LESS TAX DOLLARS IN THE STATE OF

INDIANA.

AND L.S.A. EVEN SUGGESTED IF

THAT HAPPENS THAT THERE WILL BE

LESS TAX REVENUE COMING INTO THE

STATE OF INDIANA.

WHAT HAPPENS IN THAT CASE?

WHERE DO WE GO?

NOT ME.

BUT YOU WOULD AGREE THERE

ARE --

WHERE DO THOSE DOLLARS COME

FROM, THEY COME FROM TAX

DOLLARS, THESE ARE PUBLICLY

FUNDED PROJECTS.

EVERY DOLLAR SPENT ABOVE MARKET

PRICE IS A -- THE DOLLAR, THE

TAX DOLLAR THAT ANOTHER BUSINESS

DOESN'T HAVE TO PAY THEIR PEOPLE

SALARIED BENEFITS, HEALTHCARE.

BUT WHAT IF IT DOES GO OUT OF

STATE AND IF THE WORKFORCE COMES

IN, THEN IT DOESN'T --

I SPENT 12 YEARS ON THE

NOBLESVILLE SCHOOL BOARD AND

DURING THAT TIME I WAS THE

OWNERS' REPRESENTATIVE ON THE

COMMON CONSTRUCTION WAGE

HEARING.

IT WAS A RAPIDLY GROWING SCHOOL

DISTRICT.

WE DID A LOT OF PROJECTS DURING

THAT TIME.

AND WE CHOSE TO SET THE MINIMUM

TO BE PAID AT THE ABC RATE SO

THAT WE WOULD HAVE MORE FAIR,

OPEN AND COMPETITIVE BIDDING.

AND DURING THOSE 12 YEARS

LITERALLY HALF OF THE PROJECTS

WERE WON BY UNION CONTRACTORS,

THE OTHER HALF BY NONUNION

CONTRACTORS, AND MANY TIMES THE

WINNING BIDDER WAS PAYING WAGES,

AT LEAST FOR SOME OF THE

CATEGORIES, THAT WAS HIGHER THAN

THE MINIMUM THAT HAD BEEN

ESTABLISHED THROUGH THE

WAGE-SETTING PROCESS.

THE OTHER THING WE TALK ABOUT

WHAT -- THE COMMON WAGE LIKE

IT'S SOME MAGICAL THING.

EARLIER THIS YEAR ALLEN COUNTY

AND FORT WAYNE COMMUNITY SCHOOLS

HAD WAGE-SETTING HEARINGS OR

PROJECTS THEY WERE DOING ON THE

EXACT SAME DAY.

ALLEN COUNTY CHOSE THE ABC

RATES, FORT WAYNE COMMUNITY

SCHOOLS CHOSE THE FLCIO RATES,

FOR ELECTRICIANS IT WAS 56% FOR

UNSKILLED MILLWRIGHTS IT WAS

106%.

SO WHICH ONE IS REALLY THE

COMMON WAGE.

STATE STATUTE.

YOU'VE GOT FIVE DIFFERENT --

OF COURSE IT WAS

DETERMINED -- FROM MY EXPERIENCE

THAT THE COMMON WAGE IS WHATEVER

THE COMMITTEE SAYS IT IS, AND

THAT'S BEEN BACKED UP, AND WHAT

GETS ESTABLISHED IS TOTALLY

BASED ON WHO'S APPOINTED TO THAT

COMMITTEE.

AND OUR ONLY POSITION, IF I CAN

FINISH, IS THAT WE DON'T SET

MINIMUM PRICES TO BE PAID ON

CONSTRUCTION MATERIALS, ON BUS

DRIVER SALARIES, ON COMPUTERS,

OR EVEN PAPER CLIPS.

SO WHY DO WE DO IT ON

CONSTRUCTION LABOR?

AND WE'RE ALL FOR THE TRAINING

PROGRAM.

WE RECOGNIZE THE TRAINING AND

THESE ARE OUTSTANDING PROGRAMS.

I'VE GONE TO VISIT THEM.

BUT THE QUESTION IS HOW SHOULD

THEY BE PAID FOR.

AND ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT

MAYBE THEY SHOULDN'T BE PAID FOR

BY OVERCHARGING TAXPAYERS ON

PUBLIC CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS,

BUT WE OUGHT TO DEAL WITH IT

STRAIGHT UP AND --

BACK INTO THE LOCAL

COMMUNITIES AND SUPPORT THOSE

LOCAL COMMUNITIES, THOSE ARE NOT

TAXABLE --

BUT WOULD THOSE TAX DOLLARS

BE BETTER SPENT BY LEAVING THEM

IN THE TAXPAYERS' POCKETS RATHER

THAN HAVING THEM PAY

ABOVE-MARKET PRICES FOR THE

PUBLIC CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS.

ECONOMY GROW BY HAVING A

FLOOR SHOWING OF THE DOLLARS

WITHIN THE ECONOMIES AND WHEN

THE ECONOMIES --

IN MY OPINION, I THINK WE'RE

SKEWING, WE'RE SKEWING THESE

DOLLARS.

I MEAN, WE'RE SKEWING THE

PERCENTAGES.

I THINK THESE STUDIES THAT HAVE

BEEN THROWN UP ARE INCLUSIVE,

THEY'VE ALL BEEN PROVEN TO BE

INCLUSIVE IN OTHER STATES.

IF YOU BID IN THESE OTHER STATES

NOBODY'S LOOKING AT THE TRUE

LIFE CYCLE COSTS OF THESE

BUILDINGS WHEN YOU HAVE LOWER

SKILLED PEOPLE BUILDING THESE

BUILDINGS AND YOU WILL HAVE

THAT.

IN OHIO THE QUALITY WENT UP.

THEY DID A SURVEY FIVE YEARS

AFTER THEIR REPEAL AND THERE WAS

A SLIGHT INCREASE IN THE

QUALITY.

ARE THERE OTHER STATISTICS

WORKPLACE MISHAPS GO UP AS WELL?

SAFETY ISSUE.

ONE LAST THING I'M SAYING, I

KNOW WE'RE TIGHT ON TIME HERE.

HOW ARE WE GOING TO RECRUIT

PEOPLE INTO -- INDIANA,

HOOSIERS, HOW ARE WE GOING TO

RECRUIT THEM TO JOIN OUR

WORKFORCE AND HELP US BUILD

THOSE BUILDINGS.

WE'RE HAVING A TOUGH ENOUGH TIME

NOW, I KNOW THAT.

OFFER THEM A DECENT WAGE FOR

A HARD DAY'S WORK.

WELL, BUT SOMETHING LIKE 88%

OF ALL OF THE CONSTRUCTION

WORKERS IN INDIANA ARE NOT UNION

AND SO SOMEHOW THEY'RE GETTING

RECRUITED.

WE'LL ALL COME BACK HERE AND

SEE WHO WAS RIGHT AND LINE UP

YOUR STATISTICS AND YOURS AND

WE'LL SEE WHO WAS RIGHT AND WHO

WAS WRONG.

OBVIOUSLY, IT'S AN IMPORTANT

ISSUE, ONE ABOUT WHICH MANY

PEOPLE VERY STRONGLY AND I THANK

YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE TO SHARE

THE INSIGHT THAT YOU ALL HAVE ON

THIS ISSUE IN THE FINAL WEEKS

HERE OF THE SESSION PROMISES TO

BE INTERESTING.

AGAIN, MY GUESTS HAVE BEEN

REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE JERRY

TORR OF CARMEL.

DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVE DAVID

NIEZGODSKI OF SOUTH BEND.

KEVIN BRINEGAR, PRESIDENT AND

CEO OF THE INDIANA CHAMBER OF

COMMERCE.

AND JEFF HAGERMAN, CHAIRMAN OF

THE HAGERMAN GROUP CONSTRUCTION

COMPANY.

THE SUBJECT IS SCHOOL

FUNDING.

SHOULD THE MONEY FOLLOW THE

STUDENT OR FOLLOW THE NEED?

WE'LL TAKE A COURSE ON THE

EDUCATION BUDGET ON THE NEXT

"INDIANA LAWMAKERS."

TIME NOW FOR OUR WEEKLY

DISCUSSION WITH ED FEIGENBAUM,

PUBLISHER OF THE NEWSLETTER

"INDIANA LEGISLATIVE INSIGHT."

ED, WHY NOW AFTER THE 80

YEARS.

WE'RE DOING ALL THE 80 YEAR

THINGS THIS YEAR, MUST BE A

CIRCADIAN CYCLE, THE SUNDAY

ALCOHOL SALES, THE RIVERBOAT

LAWS AFTER A COUPLE OF DECADES

OF EXPERIENCE.

IT SEEMS LIKE ALL OF A SUDDEN

WE'RE LOOKING AT THINGS THAT WE

HAVEN'T REASSESSED IN QUITE A

BIT AND THIS IS ONE OF THEM.

AS TO THE SPECIFIC TIMING, I

DON'T THINK ANYBODY REALLY KNOWS

WHY --

DO YOU THINK IT'S MORE OF

JUST A REASSESSMENT OR DO YOU

THINK IT'S THE FACT THAT PEOPLE

LOOK AT THE SUPER MAJORITY IN

BOTH THE HOUSE AND SENATE AND

SAY IF WE WANT TO GET THIS DONE

THIS IS THE TIME, OR IS IT A

MATTER OF PURE POLITICS OR

NUMBERS?

THIS COULD SOON DONE THIS AS

WELL IN THE PAST, THEY COULD

HAVE WRAPPED IT UP IN A NICE

PACKAGE WITH A NICE RED BOW BUT

THEY DIDN'T.

IN FACT, THIS YEAR YOU SAW IN

THE HOUSE IN PARTICULAR A NUMBER

OF REPUBLICANS WHO FELT

COMPELLED TO VOTE WITH THEIR

DISTRICTS, PARTICULARLY UP IN

LAKE COUNTY, NORTHWEST INDIANA.

AND THEY VOTED --

13 OF THEM, RIGHT, THAT SPLIT

WITH THEIR PARTY.

A GREAT NUMBER.

SO IT'S NOT NECESSARILY THE

SUPER MAJORITY BECAUSE A LOT OF

THE NEWER REPUBLICANS, THE NEW

REPUBLICANS FROM LAKE COUNTY,

DIDN'T SUPPORT THE MAJORITY OF

THE CAUCUS ON THIS PARTICULAR

ISSUE.

HOW DID THIS END UP, THIS

SESSION?

I THINK WHAT YOU MAY WANT TO

DO IS TAKE A LOOK AT THE BILL

THAT WAS ORIGINALLY INTRODUCED

IN THE HOUSE BY REPRESENTATIVE

DAVE OB ERIN ADIDN'T GET A

HEARING AND SET THE PROJECTS

THAT WOULD COME UNDER

JURISDICTION OF THE COMMON

CONSTRUCTION WAGE BILL, THESE

AGREEMENTS.

AND RIGHT NOW YOU'VE GOT

PROJECTS THAT ARE 350,000 OR

OVER THAT ARE SUBJECT TO THE

LAW.

AND I THINK MAYBE YOU'LL SEE

THAT BUMPED UP A LITTLE BIT MORE

TO THE OVER LAY LIMITS OF

$1 MILLION AND PEOPLE WILL BE

HAPPY ABOUT THE RESULT THERE AND

WILLING TO COMPROMISE AT THIS

LEVEL.

YOU THINK THIS WILL END UP IN

COMPROMISE EVEN THOUGH THE

NUMBERS ARE THERE TO GET THIS

DONE APPARENTLY?

ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY.

IT LOOKS LIKE WE'RE AVOIDING A

SUMMER STUDY THAT SOME PEOPLE

WANTED AND OTHERS DIDN'T AND IT

LOOKS LIKE WE WILL END UP WITH

SOMETHING BUT WITH A MUCH HIGHER

LEVEL THAN WE'VE GOT TODAY AND I

THINK PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES WILL

WALK AWAY RELATIVELY SATISFIED.

AND POLITICAL FALLOUT, DOES

THIS MOBILIZE ORGANIZED LABOR?

WELL, I THINK CERTAINLY, TO

THE EXTENT THAT THEY WANT TO

MOBILIZE THEIR MEMBERS THEY'LL

BE ABLE TO USE THIS AS SOMETHING

TO GET THEM GOING BUT I DON'T

THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A REAL

CATALYST STATE-WIDE AND IT'S

CERTAINLY NOT GOING TO BE

SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO HURT

THE REPUBLICANS IN GENERAL

EITHER.

VERY GOOD, ED.

AS ALWAYS, APPRECIATE YOUR

INSIGHT.

FOR MORE INFORMATION, EPISODE

STREAMS, AND EXTRA CONTENT,

VISIT US ON THE NET AT

WFYI.ORG/LAWMAKERS.

YOU CAN ACCESS LIVE STREAMING

COVERAGE OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY

ON THE INTERNET AS WELL.

AND, REMEMBER, YOU CAN GET OUR

SHOW ON DEMAND FROM XFINITY

AND BRIGHTHOUSE NETWORKS.

WELL, THAT CONCLUDES ANOTHER

EDITION OF "INDIANA LAWMAKERS."

I'M JON SCHWANTES, AND, ON

BEHALF OF WFYI PUBLIC MEDIA AND

INDIANA'S OTHER PUBLIC-

BROADCASTING STATIONS, I THANK

YOU FOR JOINING US.

AND I INVITE YOU TO VISIT

WFYI.ORG FOR EXCLUSIVE WEB

CONTENT, INCLUDING THE BEST

ADVICE OUR GUESTS HAVE EVER

RECEIVED.