>> BRAUDE: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON:" YET ANOTHER N.F.L.
STAR, AND THE FIRST MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER PLAYER, DIAGNOSED WITH THE DEGENERATIVE BRAIN DISEASE KNOWN AS C.T.E.
CONCUSSION LEGACY FOUNDATION CO-FOUNDER CHRIS NOWINSKI AND FORMER M.L.S.
M.V.P.
TAYLOR TWELLMAN JOIN ME.
THEN LATER, TWO LOCAL FILMMAKERS WHO, AFTER MEETING IN A MOST UNEXPECTED PLACE-- JAIL-- HAVE BROUGHT THE STORY OF BOSTON'S BUSSING CRISIS TO THE BIG SCREEN IN "THE WALK."
AND FINALLY, AN APOLOGY FROM ME, TO THE MASSACHUSETTS LEGISLATURE.
♪♪ >> BRAUDE: ANOTHER NAME HAS BEEN ADDED TO THE LONG LIST OF FORMER FOOTBALL PLAYERS KNOWN TO HAVE SUFFERED FROM A SERIOUS, DEGENERATIVE BRAIN DISEASE.
YESTERDAY, WE LEARNED THAT DENVER BRONCOS SUPER BOWL CHAMPION DEMARYIUS THOMAS HAD STAGE 2 CHRONIC TRAUMATIC ENCEPHALOPATHY, BETTER KNOWN AS C.T.E., WHEN HE DIED IN DECEMBER.
HE WAS JUST 33 YEARS OLD, AND DIED FOLLOWING A SEIZURE, ONE OF MANY HE'D SUFFERED SINCE A CAR CRASH IN 2019.
ON HEARING THE DIAGNOSIS, FORMER COWBOYS RECEIVER DEZ BRYANT, A FRIEND OF THOMAS'S, TOOK TO INSTAGRAM AND WROTE, IN PART, "IT'S A LOT OF US LIVING WITH C.T.E., AND THE N.F.L.
KNOW IT.
MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE ATHLETES WHO HAVE THOSE SYMPTOMS ARE SCARED TO SPEAK."
A DAMNING STATEMENT FOR THE N.F.L.
BUT WHILE A LOT OF THE TALK OF C.T.E.
DOES SURROUND FOOTBALL, WITH MORE THAN 300 FORMER PLAYERS DIAGNOSED SO FAR, IT'S NOT JUST FOOTBALL.
LAST WEEK, WE LEARNED OF THE FIRST PUBLIC C.T.E.
DIAGNOSIS OF A MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER PLAYER, SCOTT VERMILLION, WHO DIED OF A DRUG OVERDOSE ON CHRISTMAS DAY, 2020, AT THE AGE OF 44.
I'M JOINED BY CHRIS NOWINSKI, CO-FOUNDER AND C.E.O.
OF THE CONCUSSION LEGACY FOUNDATION, WHICH WORKS TO SUPPORT THOSE AFFECTED BY C.T.E.
AND ADVOCATE FOR SAFER SPORTS, AND CO-FOUNDER OF THE BOSTON UNIVERSITY C.T.E.
CENTER, WHICH CONDUCTS RESEARCH INTO THE CONDITION, A FORMER ALL-IVY LEAGUE FOOTBALL PLAYER, THEN PRO WRESTLER, WHO RETIRED AFTER SUFFERING FROM POST-CONCUSSION SYNDROME.
AND I'M ALSO JOINED BY TAYLOR TWELLMAN, FORMER MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER M.V.P.
WITH THE NEW ENGLAND REVOLUTION, WHO ALSO RETIRED AFTER BEING DIAGNOSED WITH POST-CONCUSSION SYNDROME, AND HAS SINCE STARTED THE NONPROFIT "THINK TAYLOR," AIMED AT INCREASING CONCUSSION AWARENESS IN YOUTH SPORTS.
>> Braude: OTOMY, IT >> Braude: THE FINDING IN SCOTT VERMILLION'S CASE, THE FORMAL DIAGNOSIS OF C.T.E., I ASSUME THIS IS SOMETHING YOU LONG SUSPECTED EVEN BEFORE THE FORMAL FINDING, NO?
>> YES.
FOR COMPLETE TRANSPARENCY, I KNOW SCOTT.
I PLAYED WITH HIM IN THE YOUTH AND NATIONAL TEAMS, ALWAYS A HARD-NOSED DEFENDER.
AND EVEN THOUGH THE REPORTS ARE THE ONE DIAGNOSED CONCUSSION, THAT WAS NOT THE KIND OF PLAYER THAT SCOTT WAS.
HE WAS A VERY HARD-NOSED PLAYING.
TO BE SHOCKED BY THIS IN THE SENSE THAT SOCCER NOW HAS C.T.E., YOU WOULD BE NAIVE TO THINK THAT IT WASN'T THERE.
I FEEL FOR THE VERMILLION FAMILY BECAUSE IT WAS A TRAGIC EXPERIENCE WITH THE KIDS, WITH THE PARENTS, AND THE SIGNIFICANT OTHERS, AND HOPEFULLY THIS BRINGS A LITTLE CLOSURE TO THEM AS THEY TRY TO MOVE ON WITH THEIR LIVES AND WHATNOT.
THIS IS NO SURPRISE TO ANY OF US WHO PLAY SPORTS.
>> Braude: WHEN YOU SAY "NO SURPRISE," WASN'T THERE IS A STUDY OF EUROPE SAYING PROFESSIONAL SOCCER PLAYERS THERE WERE THREE OR FOUR MORE TIME LIKELY TO SUFFER FROM NEURODEGENERATIVE DISEASES, SO HEADERS ARE NOTHING NEW -- >> WELL, THE POWER BROKERS WANT TO TELL YOU IT IS THE COLLISIONS, AND YET WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, A BALL MOVING AT 40, 50, 60 MILES PER HOUR HITTING SOMEONE'S HIT, THOSE SUBCONCUSSIVE HITS, YOU'RE NAIVE TO THINK THEY WON'T HAVE AN IMPACT.
THE MORE EUROPE STARTS ASKING QUESTIONS, WHERE THE RICHEST CLUBS ARE.
THE MORE PROBLEM YOU'LL HAVE BECAUSE FEFA AND THE POWER PLAYERS WILL HAVE TO LISTEN.
>> Braude: I READ WHEN SCOTT EXPERIENCED, THINGS LIKE IMPULSE CONTROL PROBLEMS, DEPRESSION, SUBSTANCE ABUSE, AND IT SOUNDED LIKE DEJA VU ALL OVER AGAIN.
THOSE ARE NOT ATYPICAL FOR PEOPLE WHO ULTIMATELY DID SUFFER FROM C.T.E., CORRECT?
>> THAT IS THE MOST COMMON WAY PEOPLE WITH C.T.E.
HAVE DIED AND BEEN DIAGNOSED, WITH SUICIDE.
SO MANY HAVE SUFFERED WITH SUBSTANCE ABUSE.
I'VE LOST A COUPLE OF CLOSE FRIENDS IN THE LAST YEAR DUE TO THAT.
>> Braude: CHRIS, HOW MANY OF AN IMPACT -- TAYLOR MENTIONED EUROPE IS THE BIG DOGS WHEN IT COMES TO SOCCER, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME, AGAIN AS AN OUTSIDER, A CONSUMER OF WHAT YOU DO AND THE SPORTS YOU BOTH PARTICIPATED IN, BUT WHEN YOU HAVE THE FIRST IN THIS COUNTRY IN A PROFESSIONAL SPORT, THAT HAS TO HAVE A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT IMPACT, DOES IT NOT?
OR AM I BEING NAIVE, CHRIS?
>> NO, IT IS HAVING A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT.
IN FACT, TAYLOR AND I HAVE BEEN TALKING TO SOME REAL SOCCER LEGENDS OF GETTING INVOLVED.
WE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD AND CHANGE THE WAY WE NEED TO CHANGE.
WE NEED TO SPEAK THE 2R50U7B8G.
THE TRUTH.
THE BALL HITTING YOUR HIT OVER AND OVER IS GOING TO CAUSE SOME PROBLEMS.
AND WE HAVE TO CHANGE THAT AND START SUPPORTING THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN HIT IN THE HEAD TOO MUCH.
AND A LOT OF PLAYERS ARE COMING FORWARD QUIETLY AND SAYING I HAVE THE SAME SYMPTOMS SCOTT HAD, AND I NEED HELP.
I HOPE WE RESPOND AND REALLY HELP PROFESSIONAL SOCCER PLAYERS.
>> Braude: HERE IS A STATEMENT FROM THE CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER OF MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER, MARGOT PUTUKIAN.
I HOPE I'M NOT BUTCHERING HER NAME.
M.L.S.
IS A LEADER IN THE SPORT ADVOCATING THE FEFA CONCUSSION SUBSTITUTE PROGRAM TO IDENTIFY POTENTIAL HEAD INJURIES, AND REMOVING ANY PLAYER WITH A SUSPECTED HEAD INJURY FOR ASSESSMENT AND POTENTIAL TREATMENT.
THE M.L.S.
IS STAUNCHLY COMMITTED TO THIS IMPORTANT WORK."
ARE THEY DOING ENOUGH OR IS THAT MORE RHETORIC?
>> I WILL TIP MY CAP TO MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER BECAUSE THE MOMENT THIS HAPPENED, I THINK SOMETHING THEY WANTED TO LAUNCH IN 2023, 2024, IT MAY COME VERY SOON HERE.
THE CONCUSSION SUBSTITUTION RULE IS SO EASY TO IMPLEMENT AT THE PROFESSIONAL LEVEL.
THE REASON I'M SUCH AN ADVOCATE FOR THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE PROS.
IT IS WHEN THE PROFESSIONAL GAME RECOGNIZES THERE IS A CONCUSSION ISSUE, AND EVERYTHING TRICKLES DOWN AND IT IS EASIER TO CHANGE THE YOUTH.
IT IS EASIER TO TEACH THE YOUTH.
IT IS EASIER TO CREATE CHANGE FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE GAME, BUT IT HAS TO START AT THE TOP.
THAT STATEMENT IS MORE RHETORIC THAN IT IS REALITY.
HOWEVER, I THINK REALITY IS GOING TO OVERSTEP THAT RHETORIC PRETTY SOON BECAUSE I THINK SOME OF THE OWNERS ARE 4R50EURBG LION, LIKE, WE CAN'T SIT ON OUR HANDS.
>> Braude: WHAT IS THE ASSESSMENT PROTOCOL?
>> HAVE TO INSPECT THE PLAYER IF THERE IS A SUSPECTED CONCUSSION.
IT IS AT A MINIMUM, SEVEN MINUTES, NORMALLY 10 MINUTES.
TAKE THE PLAYER OFF.
THE SUBSTITUTE DOESN'T COUNT.
NO PROBLEM.
THE PROBLEM, JIM, IN SOCCER, THERE IS AN UNLIMITED SUBSTITUTIONS.
AND SO NOW MANAGERS ARE MAKING MEDICAL DECISIONS THAT SHOULDN'T BE MAKING THOSE DECISIONS.
IF A CONCUSSION HAPPENS, GET THEM OFF.
THE SUB DOESN'T COUNT.
WE'LL CREATE A HUGE AMOUNT OF CHANGE IF THAT IS IMPLEMENTED BECAUSE EVERY YOUTH WILL SAY, WE'VE GOT TO FOLLOW THE RULES.
>> Braude: LET'S TALK ABOUT THE YOUTH FOR A MINUTE, CHRIS.
I READ SOMETHING ABOUT U.S. SOCCER, WHICH I GUESS IS THE GOVERNING BODY FOR SOCCER AROUND THE COUNTRY, UNDER 10, NO HEADERS AT ALL.
AND -- >> UNDER 11, NO HEADERS, AND THEN IT IS LIMITED TO 14.
>> Braude: IS THAT WHERE WE SHOULD BE WITH KIDS PLAYING SOCCER OR NOT ENOUGH?
>> I WOULD SAY NOT ENOUGH.
TAYLOR AND I WORKED TOGETHER ON THE SAFER SOCCER TO IMPLEMENT NO HEADING.
WE THINK IT SHOULD BE NO HEADING UNTIL 14.
GIVE THE BRAIN MORE TIME TO DEVELOP.
WE HAVE TO KEEP FOLKS FROM HEADING.
BUILDING ON WHAT TAYLOR SAID, THE STATEMENT BY M.L.S., IT ONLY TALKED ABOUT CONCUSSION, AND IT DIDN'T ADDRESS THE HEADERS.
AND THE HEADERS ARE THE ISSUES.
IT IS NOT JUST C.T.E.
WE HAVE TO BE HONEST.
WE HAVE TO STOP HITTING CHILDREN IN THE HEAD.
THAT'S THE NUMBER ONE THING WE NEED TO TELL PARENTS AND COACHES.
>> Braude: PARENTS AND COACHES, TAYLOR, BUT THERE IS A KID INVOLVED, TOO.
I'M ASSUMING EVEN IF YOU'RE ABLE TO DO THE EDUCATION, EVEN IF IT REQUIRES A LITTLE FORCE FOR THE ADULTS IN CHARGE, DO THE KIDS GET IT?
OR DO THE KIDS SAY, I WANT TO DO THIS.
I LOVED DOING IT.
I WATCHED YOU DO IT, AND I WANT TO DO IT, TOO.
>> I WOULD SAY TO EVERY KID AND PARENT AND COACH, HOW MANY HAVE YOU SEEN MESSIER HAVE?
HE IS ARGUABLY THE BEST PLAYER, AND HE HAS NEVER DID A HEADER.
IT IS NOT INHERENT THAT YOU'VE GOT TO BE INVOLVED.
THROUGHOUT MY YEARS OF BEING RETIRED AND TRAVELING WITH ESPN, I MAKE IT A POINT TO GO WATCH YOUTH.
THE YOUTH DON'T WANT TO HEAD A BALL.
THEY DON'T WANT TO HEAD A BALL.
A BALL MOVING AT HIGH SPEEDS, THEY DON'T WANT TO HEAD A BALL UNTIL KNUCKLE HEADS LIKE MYSELF, COACHES AND PARENTS AROUND THE WORLD SAY, LET'S HEAD A BALL AND THROW A BALL AT THEIR HEADS.
THAT'S WHY I STARTED "THINK TAYLOR."
IF I EMPOWER THE KIDS AND WE GET THE PARENTS AND COACHES OUT OF THE EQUATION, THE KIDS ARE GOING TO LEAD THE CHANGE.
THEY'RE GOING TO LOOK AT THEIR PARENTS AND GO, I'M NOT GOING TO HEAD THE BALL.
I'M GOING TO BECOME A BETTER PLAYER WITH THE BALL WITH MY FEET.
THE LONGER THAT GOES THAT WAY, THE BETTER OFF THE SPORT IS GOING TO BE.
AND THEN WE CAN TALK ABOUT 13, 14, 15, 16, ON HOW TO ADDRESS THIS.
IT IS ACTUALLY, NO PUN INTENDED, IT IS A NO-BRAINER TO DO THIS, AND I FIND IT ODD THAT PEOPLE ARE FIGHTING IT.
>> Braude: I WANT YOU TO KNOW, TAYLOR, IN THE SPIRIT OF FULL DISCLOSURE, WHEN I PLAYED SOCCER, I WANTED TO HEAD THE BALL, BUT I COULDN'T.
CHRIS, I KNOW YOU MENTIONED WITH THE THOMAS FAMILY, I MENTIONED DEMARYIUS THOMAS A MINUTE AGO, TAYLOR USED THE WORD "CLOSURE."
WHEN A FAMILY DECIDES TO WORK WITH YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES, THEY HAVE TO REVISIT THE PAIN THAT SOMEBODY THEY LOVED LIVED THROUGH, NOT ONLY SUFFERING BUT THEIR ULTIMATE FATE.
WHY DO THEY DO IT?
WHY DO THEY DECIDE TO WORK WITH YOU GUYS?
>> YEAH, WE WOULDN'T BE ANYWHERE WITHOUT THESE FAMILIES SAYING YES TO BRAIN DONATION.
I REACHED OUT TO THE THOMAS FAMILY DIRECTLY AND THEY WERE REALLY WONDERFUL ABOUT IT.
THE FAMILIES WANT TO GIVE BACK TO THE GAME, AND DEMARYIUS THOMAS' MOTHER SAID DEMARYIUS SAID IF ANYTHING HAPPENS TO ME, MAKE SURE TO GO AFTER THOSE THAT MADE IT HAPPEN.
THAT'S WHY SHE SAID YES.
IT PUTS THE SUFFERING AND THE CHANGES INTO PERSPECTIVE.
THE PERSONALITIES BECOME FORGETFUL AND ANGRY, AND IT HELPS YOU REALIZE THAT WASN'T THEIR CHARACTER.
THAT WAS THE BRAIN DISEASE CHANGEING THEM, AND YOU COULD STILL LOVE THEM FOR WHO THEY WERE BEFORE THEIR BRAINS STARTED TO FALL APART.
>> Braude: BEFORE WE GO, A COUPLE MORE THINGS.
I MENTIONED IN THE INTRODUCTION YOU BOTH RETIRED BECAUSE OF YOUR CONCUSSIONS.
STARTING WITH YOU, CHRIS, HOW ARE YOU NOW AND DO YOU WORRY ABOUT YOUR FUTURE?
>> I'M DOING MUCH BETTER THAN I WAS WHEN I WAS HURT IN 2003.
I SUFFERED TREMENDOUSLY FOR 15 YEARS.
I THINK I'VE GOTTEN A FEW THINGS UNDER CONTROL.
I'M NOT 100%.
BUT THE REALITY IS, THE MORE TESTS WE DO, THE MORE POSSIBILITY IS THAT I HAVE C.T.E.
SO I'M RACING TO HELP THESE DOCTORS TO FIND A CURE.
I SAY, YOU'VE GOT TO GET TO CURE FOR ME BECAUSE SOME DAY I'M GOING TO NEED IT.
>> Braude: HOW ABOUT YOU, TAYLOR?
>> I'M THANKFUL I MET CHRIS NOWINSKI, NOT BECAUSE HE IS ON THE ZOOM, BUT BECAUSE THERE IS CLARITY WHAT I WAS GOING THROUGH IN 2008, IN TRYING TO FIGHT THROUGH IT.
I PLAYED 10 GAMES WITH IT, AND SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE THAT.
I STILL HAVE MY STRUGGLES, BUT FOR ME TO BE ABLE TO PERSEVERE THROUGH THIS MOMENT, GET TO THIS PLACE, START A FOUNDATION, I WOULD HAVE NEVER THOUGHT WHEN CHRIS MET ME IN 2009 THAT THIS ACTUALLY WAS GOING TO BE THE WHOLE REASON WHY I GOT A CONCUSSION, AND YET IT IS.
I'M DOING ALL RIGHT.
DO I DO THE SAME THINGS I DID 10 YEARS AGO, JIM?
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
I CAN'T.
BUT AM I AT A LEVEL ON ESPN WHERE MY FEM REIS MY MEMORY IS GOING, NO.
I'M DOING A LOT OF STUFF TO TRY TO STAY ON TOP OF IT.
BUT IT IS MORE MORE SO SO PEOPLE CAN CALL ME AND ASK FOR HELP.
>> Braude: THERE WAS A STORY AT THE END OF LAST YEAR SAYING YOUR COLLEAGUES AT B.U.
MAYBE AT A BREAKTHROUGH WITH M.R.I.s, MAY BE AT A POINT WHERE IT CAN BE DIAGNOSED AMONG THE LIVING.
QUICKLY, HOW CLOSE ARE WE?
>> WE'VE GOT SO MANY GREAT IDEAS AND BRILLIANT THINGS WE'VE LEARNED FROM THE BRAINS.
LET'S JUST HOPE THE HYPOTHESES WORTH OUT.
>> Braude: CHRIS AND TAYLOR, I CAN'T THANK YOU ENOUGH FOR THE WONDERFUL WORK YOU DO.
THANK YOU BOTH, GENTLEMEN.
>> THANK YOU, TAYLOR.
GOOD TO SEE YOU.
IT'S BEEN NEARLY 50 YEARS SINCE THE BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM WAS ORDERED TO DESEGREGATE, AND BUSSING BEGAN IN THE CITY.
AS BLACK STUDENTS WERE SHUTTLED TO PREDOMINANTLY WHITE SCHOOLS, AND WHITE STUDENTS TO BLACK SCHOOLS, THE FEAR AND HATRED AND VIOLENCE IN BOSTON GREW TO A BOILING POINT, AS IS CHRONICLED IN A NEW FILM.
>> BLACK PEOPLE HAVE TO BE READY TO MAKE ONE CHOICE IN AMERICA, AND THAT'S A CHOICE WHETHER TO STAY IN CONTROL WHEN WHITE PEOPLE ARE OUT OF CONTROL.
>> THEY WANT A BUNCH OF KIDS WHO HATE EACH OTHER TO WALK HAND-IN-HAND AND SING "KUMBAYA?"
>> THIS BUSSING THING IS DRIVING ME CRAZY.
THEY'RE NOT LIKE US!
THEY'RE JUST NOT LIKE US!
>> I DEAL WITH RACIST PEOPLE ALL THE TIME, AND I DON'T SAY ANYTHING.
SO WHAT DOES THAT MAKE ME?
>> BRAUDE: STARING A SLEW OF HOLLYWOOD HEAVY-HITTERS, THE MOVIE IS CALLED "THE WALK," AND IT WAS WRITTEN BY TWO OF MASSACHUSETTS' OWN: DANIEL ADAMS, WHO ALSO DIRECTED THE FILM, AND GEORGE POWELL, WHO JOIN ME NOW.
THE FILM, BY THE WAY, WON BEST PICTURE AND BEST ORIGINAL SCREENPLAY AT THIS YEAR'S BOSTON INTERNATIONAL FILM FESTIVAL.
>> Braude: CONGRATULATIONS, GENTLEMEN.
GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH.
>> GOOD TO BE HERE.
>> Braude: 50 YEARS AFTER THE FACT, WHY BOTHER MAKING THIS?
>> WELL, BECAUSE THE SUBJECT NEVER GOES AWAY, UNFORTUNATELY.
WE ARE LIVING IN A TIME WHEN IT IS PROBABLY JUST AS BAD, IF NOT WORSE.
AND WE CONSTANTLY NEED TO BE REMINDED OF THE -- OF TRYING TO BREAK APART WHY PEOPLE HAVE THE ATTITUDES THEY DO, AND WHY THEY'RE RACIST AND WHY THEY'RE BIGOTS.
>> Braude: IS THAT YOUR MOTIVATION, TOO, GEORGE?
>> YEAH -- WELL, MY MOTIVATION IS MORE TO SHOW THE DIFFERENT DEGREES OF HATE AND LIKE SOMETIMES IN LIFE WE TAKE HATE AND ANGER -- ANGER AND TRANSFER IT INTO HATE.
AND IT IS NOT HATE, ACTUALLY.
IT IS ANGER.
THAT'S WHY YOU WATCH THE MOVIES, AND THERE ARE DIFFERENT LEVELS OF THE HATE.
YOU SEE THE EXTREME HATE AND THEN YOU SEE THE PASSIVE RACISM.
AND THEN YOU SEE THE EXTREME RACISM.
AND SO THERE ARE DIST LEVELS --DIFFERENT LEVELS OF IT.
>> Braude: AND THESE PEOPLE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT ANYBODY ELSE IS LIKE BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEVER LIVED WITH ANYBODY ELSE.
DID I NOT READ YOU HAD A SISTER WHO WAS BUSED?
>> SHE WASN'T BUSED, BUT SHE WENT THROUGH THE ISSUE OF THE WHOLE PROCESS.
>> Braude: SO YOU HAVE A PERSONAL CONNECTION -- >> JUST LIVING IN BOSTON, YOU HAVE A PERSONAL CONNECTION.
I WENT TO A BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOL.
>> Braude: I'M WATCHING YOUR FILM THIS WEEKEND, AND I TOOK A BREAK HALF WAY THROUGH, AND I TURNED ON THE TELEVISION, AND WHAT IS ON TELEVISION, THE PATRIOT FRONT MARCHING, THESE WHITE SUPREMACISTS.
AS GUYS WHO KNOW THIS COMMUNITY, DO YOU SEE ANY% OF BOSTON IN YOUR FILM, IN BOSTON 2022?
>> I ABSOLUTELY DO.
>> Braude: WHY DID YOU LOOK AT HIM FIRST?
>> TO SEE IF HE WANTED TO ANSWER FIRST.
>> Braude: HE CAN ANSWER IN A SECOND.
WHAT ABOUT YOU, YOU DO SEE IT?
>> WELL, I EXPERIENCED IT FROM THE OTHER SIDE WHEN I WAS A KID GROWING UP IN BOSTON.
AND -- BUT I DON'T SEE MUCH OF A CHANGE, OTHER THAN, YOU KNOW, MAYBE A LITTLE BIT IN POLITICS.
>> Braude: IT IS MORE THAN A LITTLE BIT.
WHITE GUYS HAVE BEEN MAYORS OF THE CITY -- I'M NOT SAYING EVERYTHING IS GREAT -- BUT FOR THERE IS A WOMAN OF COLOR RUNNING -- >> WHICH IS GREAT.
WE HAD PEOPLE COMING OUT WHO ACTUALLY WERE ON THE BUS, WHO WERE IN TEARS WATCHING THE MOVIE.
>> Braude: REALLY?
DO YOU SEE THAT BOSTON AND THIS BOSTON IN 2022 -- >> NO.
IT IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT.
>> Braude: HOW IS IT TOTALLY DIFFERENT?
>> BACK THEN YOU COULDN'T GO TO BROADWAY AND YOU COULDN'T GET OFF AT COLUMBIA ROAD.
NOWADAYS, YOU CAN GET OFF AT THIS STATIONS AND GO ON THE BEACH.
THAT PART OF IT HAS TOTALLY CHANGED.
IT IS MORE INTEGRATED RIGHT NOW.
>> Braude: SO LET'S GO BACK TO THOSE DAYS OF '74.
YOU FOLKS ARE FROM TWO FAMILIES, ONE WITH A WHITE KID, WHO IS GOING TO BE A SENIOR IN HIGH SCHOOL, AND ONE WHO IS GOING TO A BLACK KID GOING TO BE A SENIOR.
HERE IS PART OF THE DISCUSSION WHEN THEY LEARN THEY'RE GOING TO BE BUSED.
>> ROXBURY HIGH, RIGHT?
>> WHAT AM I GOING TO DO?
THEY HATE US.
>> YOU'RE RIGHT, THEY'RE GOING TO CALL YOU EVERY NAME ON THE BUS.
AND LIBERAL MASSACHUSETTS ISN'T NO BETTER THAN CONFEDERATE ALABAMA, BUT THERE IS NOTHING THAT YOU CAN'T HANDLE.
AND WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED ABOUT HATE?
>> IT IS LIKE AN ADDICTIVE DRUG BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO HATE HAVE LOW SELF-ESTEEM AND PUTTING OTHERS DOWN MAKE THEM FEEL BETTER ABOUT THEMSELVES.
>> Braude: IS THERE ANYTHING THAT YOUR FAMILY EXPERIENCED, OR NEIGHBORS EXPERIENCED AS THAT FAMILY DID?
>> MY MOM WAS TELLING US, DON'T DO WHAT OTHERS DO.
WE'VE GOT TO STICK WITH OUR MORALS AND WHAT WE'VE TAUGHT YOU AND GO OUT THERE.
I'VE BEEN, LIKE, CHASED DOWN THE STREET.
YOU STAND BY FOUR CORNERS, AND YOU CAN'T GO ON TOP OF THE STREET.
YOU GET CHASED DOWN.
I'VE HAD ROCKS THROWN AT OUR CAR.
THE ENERGY OF THAT ERA, EVERYBODY THAT LIVED IN BOSTON AT THAT TIME EXPERIENCED THAT.
>> Braude: DID YOU EVER SAY THE WORDS THAT SHE JUST SAID, "THEY HATE US"?
>> YEAH.
BUT WE GENERALIZED THE WORD "HATE."
BUT EVERYBODY DON'T HATE EVERYBODY.
THAT'S WHY THE MOVIE IS SO INTIMATE IN THE HOUSEHOLD SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND IT IS NOT A TOTAL HATE.
>> Braude: WHAT DO YOU HOPE THAT PEOPLE TAKE AWAY FROM THIS, OTHER THAN YOUNG PEOPLE WHO AREN'T NEARLY AS FAMILIAR WITH THE HISTORY AS THEY SHOULD BE.
WHAT DO YOU HOPE THEY TAKE AWAY?
>> I HOPE THEY ACTUALLY -- I LEAVE THE FILM WITH SORT OF A CLIFFHANGER.
WHAT I WANT PEOPLE TO DO IS LEAVE THE THEATERS, OR IN THIS CASE ALSO NOW IT IS ON DEMAND -- ONCE THEY'RE DONE WITH THE FILM, TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT -- WHAT DECISION THAT CHARACTER SHOULD MAKE AT THE END OF THE MOVIE.
BECAUSE WE -- I LEAVE IT WITH ONE OF THE CHARACTERS HAVING TO MAKE A DECISION.
AND THAT WOULD THEN -- YOU KNOW, THERE ARE NO ANSWERS TO RACISM IN A LOT OF WAYS, OTHER THAN TO JUST GET PEOPLE EDUCATED.
AND TO GET PEOPLE THINKING ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF OTHER PEOPLE.
>> Braude: AND TRY TO REMOVE FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN, WHICH IS A HUGE THEME.
>> YES.
>> Braude: CAN WE TALK ABOUT THE FILM YOU DID MAKE -- LET'S TALK ABOUT THE ONE, IN MY OPINION, YOU SHOULD MAKE.
HOW DID YOU TWO MEET EACH OTHER?
>> WHOA!
>> Braude: WHERE DID YOU MEET?
>> IN PRISON.
>> Braude: IN JAIL?
>> YES.
>> Braude: I DON'T WANT TO HEAR YOUR HISTORIES, BUT HOW DID YOU TWO MAKE A CONNECTION?
>> I'LL TELL MY VERSION.
>> Braude: AND HE'LL TELL HIS VERSION.
GO AHEAD.
>> AS MY DAD USED TO SAY, THERE ARE ALWAYS THREE SIDES TO THE TRUTH: YOUR SIDE, MY SIDE, AND THE TRUTH.
>> Braude: LET'S HEAR IT.
>> IN ANY CASE, I GOT IN THERE AND THERE WAS A BIT OF NOTORIETY BECAUSE I HAD -- >> Braude: YOU'RE A BIG-TIME FILMMAKER, FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW.
>> YEAH.
SO IT GOT A LITTLE PUBLICITY, AND EVERYBODY KNEW THAT I WAS SORT OF -- I WAS THE HOLLYWOOD GUY.
AND I HAD A LOT OF ESPECIALLY MOB GUYS THAT ALL THOUGHT THEIR LIFE STORY WOULD MAKE A GREAT MOVIE.
>> Braude: THEIR OWN STORY.
>> YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.
SO I LITERALLY WAS GETTING PITCHED IN PRISON.
>> Braude: SO HOW DOES HE FIT INTO THIS?
>> WHAT HAPPENED IS I GOT SO FRUSTRATED TELLING EVERYBODY, I CAN'T DO ALL OF YOUR STORIES SORT OF THING.
I SAID, LOOK, IF YOU WANT YOUR STORY TO BE A MOVIE, EVERY SUNDAY I'M GOING TO BE IN THE LIBRARY, AND I'M GOING TO TEACH YOU EVERY SUNDAY HOW TO WRITE A SCREENPLAY.
AND THIS GUY SHOWED UP, AND HE WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT KEPT SHOWING UP EVERY SINGLE WEEK, AND HE STARTED WRITING.
AND THE STUFF HE WAS WRITING WAS FANTASTIC.
IT WAS BRILLIANT IN A LOT OF WAYS.
AND HE GREAT AT PLOT AND DIALOGUE AND CREATING CHARACTERS.
AND WE JUST WENT A YEAR -- >> Braude: SO WHAT'S YOUR VERSION OF THE TRUTH?
WHEN DID YOU START WRITING?
>> I STARTED WRITING IN THE HOLE.
>> Braude: YOU MEAN IN SOLITARY?
>> THAT'S IT.
THERE YOU GO.
I STARTED WRITING VOICES, AND I STARTED WRITING WHAT THEY CAN SAYING.
AND IT CAME OUT TO BE A WHOLE STORY.
I WAS JUST ABOUT TO LEAVE, AND I ASKED THE C.O., LET ME STAY TWO WEEKS LONGER SO I CAN FINISH THE STORY.
>> Braude: YOU ASKED TO STAY IN SOLITARY TWO WEEKS LONGER TO FINISH YOUR STORY?
>>!
AND THEY DON'T USUALLY DO IT -- >> Braude: I DON'T THINK MANY PEOPLE ASK TO STAY IN SOLITARY.
>> I FINISHED THE STORY, AND TWO WEEKS LATER I WAS OUT.
AND I WENT TO LOWER SECURITY AND I MET DAN.
AND WHEN I MET DAN, THEY TOLD ME THAT DAN WAS A DIRECTOR.
THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE HE WAS A REAL DIRECTOR.
I WAS, LIKE, MAN I WANT TO TALK TO HIM.
THE INFORMATION HE WAS GIVING ME, I WAS, LIKE, HE IS THE REAL DEAL.
>> Braude: DID YOU HAVE THE CONFIDENCE YOU COULD DO THIS?
>> YEAH.
BECAUSE HE TOLD ME TO GET A BOOK, AND MY SISTER SENT IT UP TO ME IN PRISON.
>> Braude: I ASKED YOUR BUDDY, DAN, WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO TAKE AWAY.
WHAT I TAKE AWAY FROM YOUR PERSONAL STORY, THIS IS OLD COLONY CORRECTIONAL STORY.
THERE IS A LOT OF PUNISHMENTS IN PRISONS.
IS THERE A MORAL TO THIS STORY, TOO, DO YOU THINK?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> Braude: WHAT IS IT?
>> THE MORAL WOULD BE DON'T GIVE UP.
CREATE A POSITIVE OUT OF A NEGATIVE.
>> Braude: DO I GET A CREDIT IN THIS MOVIE, JIM BRAUDE?
>> THIS ONE IS IN THE CAN, BUT MAYBE THE NEXT ONE.
>> Braude: I'M TALKING ABOUT YOUR MOVIE.
I'M NOT TALKING BO ABOUT THAT MOVIE.
GENTLEMEN, CONGRATULATIONS ON THE WALK, AND CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR RELATIONSHIP.
DAN AND GEORGE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.
THE MOVIE AGAIN IS "THE WALK," AND YOU CAN FIND IT ON AMAZON PRIME, AND VUDU.
BEFORE WE GO, FEW THINGS GET ME UPSET AS BEACON HILL'S MULTIPLE MONTH ELECTIONS, ESPECIALLY WHEN IMPORTANT BUSINESS IS LEFT UNDONE.
AS IT TURNED OUT, MY CRITICISM WAS BOTH PREMATURE AND WRONG.
FROM WHEN I WAS SPEAKING TO THE HEAD OF PLANNED PARENTHOOD MASSACHUSETTS ABOUT WHAT STATE LEGISLATORS WERE OR WEREN'T DOING TO ENSURE ACCESS TO ABORTION.
BEFORE WE GO-- FEW THINGS GET ME AS UPSET AS BEACON HILL'S MULTI-MONTH VACATION, IN ELECTION YEARS, ESPECIALLY WHEN IMPORTANT BUSINESS IS LEFT UNDONE, WHICH I MENTIONED YET AGAIN ON THIS SHOW LAST MONDAY.
BUT AS IT TURNED OUT, MY CRITICISM WAS BOTH PREMATURE, AND WRONG.
HERE IS A BIT OF THAT, FROM WHEN I WAS SPEAKING TO THE HEAD OF PLANNED PARENTHOOD MASSACHUSETTS ABOUT WHAT STATE LEGISLATORS WERE OR WERE NOT DOING TO ENSURE ABORTION ACCESS FOR EVERYONE, REGARDLESS OF THEIR HOME-STATE LAWS.
ONE OF THE THINGS I NEVER UNDERSTAND, ALTHOUGH I USED TO LOBBY, AND I USE THE TERM LOOSELY, ON BEACON HILL.
YOU SAY THE NEXT STEP IS TO CODIFY THIS.
ONE, I DON'T UNDERSTAND-- AND THIS IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM-- WHY LEGISLATORS THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO GO HOME FOR SIX MONTHS WHEN THERE'S IMPORTANT BUSINESS TO DO.
I WON'T PUT THAT ON YOU.
BUT, ASSUMING THEY CAN STICK AROUND FOR AN EXTRA WEEK, WHY CAN'T THEY CODIFY THIS RIGHT NOW, BEFORE THEY GO, AGAIN, ON THIS MULTI-MONTH VACATION, WELL, THEORETICALLY, TO PREPARE FOR RE-ELECTION.
WHY CAN'T THEY DO THIS NOW, TO ASSURE THE WOMEN FROM OUT-OF-STATE OR CONTEMPLATING COMING HERE, THAT THEY'LL HAVE FULL PROTECTION?
TWO DAYS AFTER I ASKED THOSE QUESTIONS, THE HOUSE DID JUST THAT, PASSING A BILL THAT WOULD EXTEND BROAD PROTECTIONS FROM THE ACTIONS OF OTHER STATES TO BOTH ABORTION PROVIDERS AND ANYONE SEEKING AN ABORTION HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS.
AND, GIVEN THE SENATE ALREADY INCLUDED SIMILAR PROPOSALS IN A STATE BUDGET AMENDMENT, IT'S FEELING PRETTY LIKELY THAT THE TWO BODIES WILL COME TOGETHER AND PASS STRONG LEGISLATION BEFORE THEY GO ON BREAK.
SO, AN APOLOGY TO ALL THOSE WHO VOTED "YES."
AS FOR THE REST OF THEM?
WELL, I'LL JUST LEAVE IT AT THAT.
THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW FOR A LOOK BACK ON GBH NEWS'S COMMUNITY CONVERSATION ABOUT THE SUPREME COURT ABORTION RULING, HOSTED BY MARGERY EAGAN, CALLIE CROSSLEY, AND PARIS ALSTON.
THAT'S TOMORROW AT 7:00 ON GBH 2, GBH RADIO 89.7, OR WATCH ANYTIME ONLINE AT YOUTUBE.COM/GBHNEWS.
THANKS FOR WATCHING.
AND DON'T FORGET UKRAINE.
♪♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org