>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": AS THE TALIBAN INSTALLS A NEW, HARDLINE GOVERNMENT IN AFGHANISTAN, I'LL TALK TO A FORMER U.S.
ALLY AMONG THE MANY THOUSANDS STILL TRYING TO GET OUT, ALONG WITH FILMMAKER BETH MURPHY, WHO'S BEEN TRYING TO HELP HER SOURCES STILL IN THE COUNTRY.
THEN, LATER, "FRONTLINE'S" MICHAEL KIRK JOINS ME ON HIS LATEST FILM, "AMERICA AFTER 9/11," WHICH TRACES THE U.S.
RESPONSES FROM THE DAY OF THE ATTACKS THROUGH FOUR PRESIDENCIES OF WAR, AND HOW IT'S CHANGED THE POLITICAL LANDSCAPE AT HOME.
>> Braude: WHEN THE TALIBAN TOOK OVER AFGHANISTAN IN THE WANING DAYS OF THE U.S. WITHDRAWAL, THEY PROMISED THIS TIME WOULD BE DIFFERENT, WITH NO NEGATIVE EFFECTS FOR WOMEN, FORMER GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, AND THOSE WHO HELPED AMERICANS IN THE NEARLY 20-YEAR-LONG WAR.
OF COURSE, FEW TOOK THEM FOR THEIR WORD.
AND IN THE PAST FEW WEEKS, THE TALIBAN HAVE WHIPPED WOMEN AT PROTESTS, BROKEN UP CROWDS WITH GUNFIRE, ARRESTED JOURNALISTS, AND OVER THE WEEKEND, A YOUNG AFGHAN MAN ACCUSED THEM OF MURDERING HIS MOTHER, A PREGNANT POLICE OFFICER, IN FRONT OF HER FAMILY, AN ACCUSATION THEY'VE DENIED.
THEN YESTERDAY THE TALIBAN DECLARED AFGHANISTAN AN "ISLAMIC EMIRATE" AND INSTALLED A NEW, ALL-MALE INTERIM GOVERNMENT, MADE UP ENTIRELY OF SENIOR TALIBAN OFFICIALS.
BUT IN AT LEAST ONE AREA, SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN SAYS THE ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN WORKING TO MAKE SURE THEY FOLLOW THROUGH.
>> WE'RE HOLDING THE TALIBAN TO THE COMMITMENTS THAT THEY'VE MADE TO ENSURE THE FREE PASSAGE AND SAFE TRAVEL FOR ANYONE WHO WANTS TO LEAVE AFGHANISTAN, STARTING WITH ANY AMERICAN CITIZENS WHO WISH TO DO SO, AFGHANS WHO WORKED FOR US, INCLUDING THE SPECIAL IMMIGRANT VISA APPLICANTS, OR VISA HOLDERS, AND OTHER AFGHANS AT RISK.
>> Braude: BUT THE LIST OF THOSE WAITING TO GET OUT IS STILL TENS OF THOUSANDS LONG.
AMONG THEM IS MY NEXT GUEST, WHO'S WORKED ON PROJECTS WITH THE U.S. ARMY, THE U.S. AGENCY FOR THE INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT, THE U.N., AND MORE.
HE'S ASKED US TO PROTECT HIS NAME AND IDENTITY, SO HE'S REQUESTED WE CALL HIM ABDUL.
AND BETH MURPHY, THE FOUNDER OF PRINCIPLE PICTURES AND THE DIRECTOR OF GROUNDTRUTH FILMS HERE AT GBH AND THE FILMMAKER BEHIND "WHAT TOMORROW BRINGS," WHICH DOCUMENTED THE EFFORTS OF A GIRLS EDUCATION GROUP IN AFGHANISTAN.
>> Braude: BETH, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU, AND ABDUL, I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING US, JIM.
>> Braude: AP DUEL, ABDUL, YOU AND MANY MEMBERS OF YOUR FAMILY, ALONG WITH DOZENS OF OTHERS, WERE ON A BUS THAT MADE IT ALL THE WAY TO THE GATES OF THE AIRPORT.
THEN WHAT HAPPENED?
>> HELLO, JIM.
HELLO, BETH.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FORGIVING ME THE CHANCE TO BE HERE TODAY.
>> Braude: OF COURSE.
>> AND TO SHARE ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE AND WHAT HAPPENED STARTING FROM KABUL AND BEING ON THE BUS FOR OVER 30 HOURS WITH NO SUFFICIENT FOOD ACCESS, WATER, OR FACILITIES.
WITH OVER 80 PEOPLE ON THE BUS.
WE COULD MAKE IT TO THE AIRPORT AFTER PASSING THROUGH SEVERAL CHECKPOINTS.
AND, UNFORTUNATELY, DUE TO CIRCUMSTANCES, OR LET'S THE MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE TALIBAN, THEY KICKED US OUT OF THE AIRPORT, AND THEY SAID ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE A VALID GREEN CARD OR PASSPORT HOLDERS ARE ALLOWED TO GET IN, AND OTHERS WERE KICKED OUT OF THE AIRPORT, DRUDGED TO DEATH WITH GUNFIRE, AND PUTTING -- WE HAD TO LEAVE THE AIRPORT.
AND AFTERWARD, WE WERE ADVISED TO TAKE A GROUND MOVEMENT TO AZAR, AND BE ABLE TO CATCH THE -- >> Braude: WE LOST YOU -- >> CATCH THE FLIGHT FROM MAZAR FROM AFGHANISTAN.
AND HERE WE ARE, SOMEWHERE IN MAZAR.
>> Braude: ARE YOUR LIVES AT RISK?
ARE YOU IN DANGER?
>> YES, SIR.
WE ARE HERE, A GROUP OF ALMOST A HUNDRED, OR ABOVE A HUNDRED PEOPLE HERE -- I CANNOT SAY THE EXACT NUMBER.
>> Braude: UH-HUH.
>> WE ARE ALL AS RISK, A VERY GREAT RISK, GATHERED ALL IN A CERTAIN PLACE HERE.
I CANNOT SAY THE NAME OF THE LOCATION.
AND EVERYONE WHO HAS WORKED FOR THE GOVERNMENT, GREEN CARD HOLDERS, PASSPORT HOLDERS, ARE AMONG THESE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE COUNTING EACH AND EVERY SINGLE MOMENT AND SECOND TO BE ABLE TO GET ON THE PLANE AND BE EVACUATED FROM AFGHANISTAN.
>> Braude: ABDUL, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THE TALIBAN CAME LOOK LOOKING FOR YOU AT YOUR OFFICE.
IS THAT TRUE?
>> YES, SIR.
PREVIOUSLY I HAD WORKED FOR SEVERAL CONTRACTS FOR THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT AND ASSISTING THE U.S.
IN MISSION IN AFGHANISTAN.
SINCE THE TALIBAN CAPTURED KABUL, THEY HAVE BEEN TO MY OFFICE TWICE, ASKING FOR ME AND TRYING TO CATCH ME.
I HAVE BEEN HIDDEN ALL OF THIS TIME, AND I'M STILL IN A CERTAIN PLACE THAT, LIKE I SAID, I CANNOT NAME IT.
BUT, YOU KNOW, I'M TRYING TO JUST STAY AWAY AND TO SEEK EVERY SINGLE POSSIBILITY OF GETTING OUT OF HERE ALIVE.
>> Braude: BETH, I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN WORKING TO HELP ABDUL'S FAMILY AND ITS MANY MEMBERS TO GET OUT, AND OTHERS AS WELL.
HOW ARE YOU DOING THIS?
>> SO MY EVACUATION EFFORTS REALLY STARTED WITH THE GIRLS ROBOTIC TEAM.
I'M A PRODUCER ON A FILM ABOUT THE GIRLS ROBOTIC TEAM FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.
THERE IS A LOT OF NEWS ABOUT THE GIRLS GETTING OUT OF AFGHANISTAN, BUT THOSE WHO WERE OUT, THEY WERE OUT ALONE.
THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS WERE STILL STUCK INSIDE AFGHANISTAN.
SO MY INITIAL EFFORTS WERE REALLY FOCUSED ON GETTING OUT THE FAMILY OF THE GIRLS ROBOTICS TEAM, AS WELL AS SOME JOURNALISTING, IN COLLABORATION WITH THE L.A. TIMES.
>> Braude: WHEN SECRETARY BLINKEN SAYS THOSE AFGHANS WITH VALID DOCUMENTS ARE ABLE TO GET OUT.
MY UNDERSTANDING IS ABDUL DOESN'T HAVE THOSE SPECIAL VISAS OR THE DOCUMENTS, AND WITH THE EMBASSY CLOSED, HOW DOES HE AND HIS FAMILY GET THE DOCUMENTS THAT THEORETICALLY, ACCORDING TO BLINKEN, WOULD ALLOW THE TALIBAN TO ALLOW HIS FAMILY TO LEAVE?
>> WELL, I THINK THE KEY HERE IS WE DIDN'T SEE SAFE PASSAGE WHEN THE U.S. MILITARY WAS THERE.
YOU KNOW, AS ABDUL DESCRIBED, OUR EFFORTS AT THE BUS WERE MET WITH MUCH TALIBAN RESISTANCE.
THEY WERE FIRING AT PEOPLE ORGANIZED ON THE BUS.
IF WE COULD HAVE EVERYBODY ON THE TEAM WHO PARTICIPATED IN THE EVACUATIONS -- SO FAR WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO EVACUATE 90 PEOPLE, AND IN ALL OF THOSE EFFORTS, YOU WOULD HAVE 50 PEOPLE ON THIS INTERVIEW RIGHT NOW.
I CAN'T SAY ENOUGH ABOUT OUR U.S. MILITARY AND THE PEOPLE WHO WERE INSIDE THE KABUL AIRPORT BEFORE THE EVACUATION -- BEFORE THE MILITARY LEFT -- THEY WERE REALLY PUTTING THEIR LIVES -- THERE WAS ONE SOLDIER IN PARTICULAR WHO PUT HIS LIFE ON THE LINE TO SAVE THE CHILDREN ON THE BUS WHO WE ORGANIZED FOR EVACUATION.
THIS IDEA OF SAFE PASSAGE DOESN'T REALLY EXIST.
THE IDEA YOU'RE GOING TO SHOW UP AND SHOW THE TALIBAN YOUR GREEN CARD AND THEY'RE GOING TO SAY, OKAY, HOP ON THE PLANE, THAT HAS NOT YET HAPPENED AND WE DON'T REALLY EXPECT IT WILL HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE.
>> Braude: ABDUL, YOU HEARD WHAT BETH SAID, IF SHE DOESN'T HOLD UP MUCH HOPE THAT WILL HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE.
SO HOW IS IT YOU HOPE TO BE ABLE TO EVACUATE YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS?
>> WELL, CONSIDERING ALL THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, I BELIEVE WE'RE LEGIBLE AND QUALIFIED THAT NOT ONLY MYSELF, MY WIFE, WHO HAS BEEN WITH THE AMERICAN COUNCIL -- WE DO HOLD ALL THOSE VALID DOCUMENTS TO BE ABLE TO TRAVEL OUT OF THE COUNTRY.
AND LIKE YOU MENTIONED ABOUT MY WORK AND MY WIFE'S WORK, SO WE ARE HAVING VALID DOCUMENTS RECEIVED FROM THE U.S. EMBASSY ASKING US TO MAKE IT TO THE AIRPORT AND TO BE SET ON A CERTAIN FLIGHT TO BE EVACUATED FROM KABUL.
SO WE DO HAVE OUR VISAS AND PASSPORTS -- >> Braude: OH, YOU DO?
>> YES, SIR.
>> Braude: ABDUL, YOU SOUND, FROM THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY, INCREDIBLY CALM.
DO YOU NOT LIVE WITH CONSTANT FEAR FOR YOURSELF AND THE PEOPLE YOU LOVE?
>> WELL, WE ARE VERY MUCH WORRIED, AND MAYBE IF I'M TALKING AND TRYING TO STAY CALM IS BECAUSE I WANT TO ACTUALLY PASS THIS MESSAGE TO MY FAMILY MEMBERS AND OTHERS HERE TO ACTUALLY MAINTAIN AND STAY CALM AND BE HOPEFUL, RATHER THAN MAKING PANIC AND BEING DISGUSTED OR BEING ACTUALLY TOXIC HERE.
SO WE ARE ACTUALLY LIVING WITH THE FEAR.
WE ARE IN A PLACE WHERE EVERY SINGLE MOMENT ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN TO US.
WE'RE AFRAID EVEN TO GO OUT TO THE MARKET.
WE'RE AFRAID TO EVEN STEP OUT OF THE PLACE WHERE WE ARE AT THE MOMENT.
JUST A FEW DAYS BACK, WE HAD A LADY WHO DELIVERED A BABY, AND NOBODY COULD TAKE HER TO THE HOSPITAL.
JUST BECAUSE EVERYONE WAS AFRAID OF GETTING CAUGHT OR BEING KILLED BY THE TALIBAN HERE.
>> Braude: BETH, IS IT REALISTIC TO THINK THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, NOW THAT IT HAS LEFT THE COUNTRY, CAN DO ANYTHING TO HELP ABDUL AND THOUSANDS OF OTHERS WHO HAVE BEEN BY OUR SIDE?
>> IT IS REASONABLE.
RIGHT NOW, THOUGH, IT IS THE PRIVATE CITIZENS AND N.G.O.s WHO ARE FILLING THE GAP RIGHT NOW.
SO, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, LAND RIGHTS NEED TO BE NEGOTIATED WITH THIRD COUNTRIES, AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE DOING.
BUT RIGHT NOW SOME PRIVATE CITIZENS AND N.G.O.s ARE DOING IT TO TRY TO GET PLANES IN AND OUT.
BECAUSE ONCE THEY LEAVE AFGHANISTAN, WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO GO?
THEY'RE NOTE GOING TO GO DIRECTLY TO THE UNITED STATES.
THEY'RE GOING TO GO TO ANOTHER COUNTRY.
AND THOSE COUNTRIES HAVE TO AGREE TO TAKE THE PLANE.
AND THEN WHAT?
SO THERE IS NO REALLY CLEAR, DIRECT ROUTE TO THE U.S.
RIGHT NOW, AS THERE WAS WHEN THE U.S. MILITARY EVACUATIONS WERE HAPPENING.
>> Braude: ABDUL, YOU AND YOUR WIFE HAVE BOTH WORKED CLOSELY, AS YOU SAID, WITH SO MANY PIECES OF THIS GOVERNMENT AND AFFILIATES OF THIS GOVERNMENT.
DO YOU FEEL LET DOWN?
DO YOU FEEL THEY SHOULD -- WE SHOULD BE DOING MORE TO HELP YOU AS YOU'VE HELPED US?
>> WELL, WE DEFINITELY EXPECT NOT TO BE LEFT BEHIND.
ALL THIS TIME THAT WE HAVE BEEN WORKING HERE TO SUPPORT THE U.S. MISSION IN AFGHANISTAN, IN TERMS OF EDUCATION, IN TERMS OF RECONSTRUCTION OF THE COUNTRY, IN TERMS OF APPLICATION OF THINGS, SO I HAVE A STRONG HOPE WE WILL NOT BE LEFT BEHIND, AND SO I DEFINITELY HOPE THAT... >> Braude: WE LOST YOUR AUDIO.
>> I HOPE ALL OF OUR SUPPORT WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN -- I HOPE.
>> Braude: ABDUL, ONE LAST THING: WHY DO YOU AGREE TO SPEAK WITH MY AUDIENCE TONIGHT?
WHY DID YOU WANT TO BE HERE?
>> I WANTED TO BE HERE TO ACTUALLY SHARE THE INSIGHTS FROM HERE, AND TO SHARE THE INSIDE STORY OF WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN HERE, THOSE WHO ARE SUFFERING, LACK OF FOOD, LACK OF WATER, LACK OF FACILITIES.
AND ALSO, THE TOUGH TIME WE'RE FACING HERE AND EVERYBODY IS EXPECTING TO BE EVACUATED.
THIS IS THE REASON WHY I WANTED TO SHOW UP TONIGHT AND TO DELIVER THIS MESSAGE FROM REPRESENTING HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE HERE.
>> Braude: I THINK IT WAS A BRAVE AND BOLD ACT, AND I'M REALLY GLAD YOU WERE HERE.
ONE LAST THING FOR YOU, BETH: FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HELP, AND I BELIEVE THAT IS VIRTUALLY EVERYBODY WHO IS WATCHING THE TWO OF YOU, WHAT CAN PEOPLE DO?
>> WELL, FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ON OUR LIST AND WHO WE'RE HELPING, THERE IS A NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATION THAT IS COLLECTING FUNDING THAT WE ARE ABLE TO SEND TO THE FAMILIES, AS ABDUL MENTIONED.
THERE ALMOST A HUNDRED PEOPLE THAT WE'RE SUPPORTING IN THE FIELD, AND HIS FAMILY IS ONE OF THEM.
AND IT IS CALLED "THE CENTER FOR INQUIRY."
AND PERHAPS WE CAN SHARE THAT INFORMATION WITH THE AUDIENCE, TO BE ABLE TO SUPPORT THE FAMILIES.
>> Braude: BETH, WE'LL PUT THAT ON THE SCREEN.
BETH, THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK, AND ABDUL, THANK YOU FOR YOUR COURAGE.
I THINK I SPEAK FOR EVERYBODY WATCHING, WE WILL NOT FORGET YOU.
I WISH YOU THE BEST OF LUCK IN THE FUTURE, YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.
>> Braude: OF COURSE, THE ROAD IN AND OUT OF AFGHANISTAN HAS BEEN LONG.
AS WE ALL KNOW, THIS SATURDAY MARKS 20 YEARS SINCE THE SEPTEMBER 11TH ATTACKS THAT LED TO THE U.S. WARS IN AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ, AND A NEW "FRONTLINE" SPECIAL EXPLORES WHAT THESE LONG INVOLVEMENTS HAVE MEANT FOR US HERE AT HOME, AND HOW THEY WEAVED THEIR WAY THROUGH THE PRESIDENCIES OF BOTH PARTIES, INCLUDING BARACK OBAMA'S.
>> THE POLITICAL INCENTIVES ARE SUCH THAT THE RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH ENDING WARS ARE SEEN AS FAR GREATER THAN THE RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH KIND OF BEING IN THEM.
THERE WAS THIS CALCULATION THAT, WELL, WHAT HAPPENS IF THERE'S A TERRORIST ATTACK?
YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD BE THE END OF A PRESIDENCY.
>> Braude: THE FILM IS "AMERICA AFTER 9/11," AND FOR THE MAN BEHIND IT, DIRECTOR, WRITER, AND PRODUCER MICHAEL KIRK, IT IS HIS 19th FILM ABOUT 9/11 FOR "FRONTLINE."
HE JOINS ME NOW.
>> Braude: CONGRATULATIONS, AS ALWAYS, MICHAEL.
THE FILM IS REALLY POWERFUL.
>> THANKS, JIM.
IT WAS ONE OF THOSE -- I WOULDN'T SAY A LABOR OF LOVE BECAUSE LOOKING AT ALL OF THAT, SEEING IT ALL OVER AGAIN AND REDUCING ALL OF THE FOOTAGE, FROM WHICH I MADE 94 FILMS ABOUT THE WAR AND ITS ANCILLARY EFFECTS, AND CUTTING THAT ALL DOWN TO TWO HOURS WAS A REAL CHALLENGE, AND MAKING IT CURRENT TO THE DAY WAS SOMETHING WE REALLY WORKED HARD AT.
>> Braude: YOUR NARRATIVE DRAWS A LINE FROM 9/11 TO THE INSURRECTION OF JANUARY 6th.
CAN YOU DESCRIBE THAT CONNECTION AS YOU PORTRAY IT IN THE FILM?
>> I THINK FROM THE VERY BEGINNING WHEN AMERICA WAS VERY, VERY -- WHEN PATRIOTISM WAS IN THE AIR AND THE WORLD WAS WITH US, AND WE'D BEEN ATTACKED, SOMETHING ELSE GOT IN THE POLITICAL BLOODSTREAM AS WELL, WHICH WAS FEAR.
IT GOT INTO THE POLL POLITICIANS AND CAUSED DICK CHENEY TO SAY WE'RE GOING TO THE DARK SIDE.
AND THE WAY WE ORGANIZED THE FILM IS AROUND MAJOR EVENTS THAT WE THINK CAUSED THAT GREAT ELATION AT THE VERY BEGINNING.
WE'RE ALL GOING TO GET IN THIS AND WORK TOGETHER ON IT.
AND WE'RE GOING TO CREATE A DIVISION, A A POLARIZATION, A LACK OF TRUST IN THE GOVERNMENT.
PEOPLE WERE LIED TO.
THOSE ISSUES LIKE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, COLIN POWELL OF THE UNITED NATIONS, ABU GRAY, AND WATER TORCHING AND ON AND ON.
YOU GET TO THE SORT OF END AND YOU REALIZE THE NATION HAS BEEN DIVIDED IN A WAY IT REALLY HAS NEVER BEEN DIVIDED BEFORE.
AND WHEN THAT IS WEAPONIZED BY THE FORMER PRESIDENT IN HIS RE-ELECTION CAMPAIGN, WHAT IT RESULTED IN WAS THE ATTACK ON CONGRESS ON JANUARY 6th.
IN OTHER WORDS, AMERICANS DOING SOMETHING THAT AL-QAEDA COULDN'T DO ON 9/11, AND THAT'S THE IRONY OF IT AND THE GREAT TRAGEDY OF IT.
>> Braude: TALKING ABOUT THE INSURRECTION, I'VE TOLD YOU THIS BEFORE -- I WAS ABOUT TO SAY THE MOST CHILLING WORD -- I'M NOT SURE THAT'S THE RIGHT WORD, BUT THE MOMENT THAT WILL ALWAYS STAY WITH ME FROM THIS FILM IS THE JUXTAPOSITION OF JANUARY 6th AS THE INSURRECTIONISTS WERE ON THE STEPS OF THE CAPITOL, AND GOING BACK TO THE NIGHT OF SEPTEMBER SEPTEMBER 11TH, AND WHAT HAPPENED ON THE CAPITOL AT THE SAME TIME AS THE SEPTEMBER 11TH -- >> STANDING ON THE STEPS OF THE CAPITOL BUILDING, CONGRESSMANMEN, PARTISAN PEOPLE, ENEMIES, ON ISSUES, BUT THERE THAT NIGHT DOING SOMETHING THAT IS ASTONISHING TO LOOK AT FROM THIS VANTAGE POINT, SINGING GOD BLESS AMERICA ACAPPELLA.
I THOUGHT, OH, WE'VE GOT TO START THE FILM THAT WAY, ESPECIALLY GIVEN WHERE WE'RE GOING AT THE END.
>> Braude: YOU MENTIONED THE ACCESS OF EVIL.
AND I THINK MANY PEOPLE REMEMBER THE FIRST STATE OF THE UNION FOR GEORGE W. BUSH, IT WAS A LASER FOCUS ON THE TALIBAN WHO HARBORED OSAMA BIN LADEN, IT WAS THE ACCESS OF EVIL.
IN NORTH KOREA, AND THE FIRST TARGET WAS SADDAM HUSSEIN.
AT BUSH'S INITIATION, IT WAS WITH THE SUPPORT OF A WIDE SWATH OF THE OPPOSITION PARTY, AND YOU FOCUS ON THREE PROMINENT MEMBERS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AS THEY'RE SPEAKING ON THE FLOOR OF THE SENATE.
WHO ARE THOSE SUPPORTERS OF THE IRAQ INVASION?
>> THREE FUTURE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEES FOR PRESIDENT.
HILLARY CLINTON, JOHN KERRY, AND JOE BIDEN.
AND EACH OF THEM IN SUPPORT -- IT SHOWS YOU WHERE WE WERE THEN -- EACH OF THEM IN SUPPORT OF GEORGE W. BUSH'S WIDENING OF THE WAR.
>> Braude: AT THE SAME TIME, IT WASN'T JUST SUPPORT FROM THOSE THREE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES, ONE OF WHOM IS NOW THE PRESIDENT, BUT THE INSTITUTION TO WHICH YOU AND I BELONG, THE MEDIA.
I BELIEVE IT WAS DESCRIBED IN YOUR FILM AS THE "AMEN CHORUS," INCLUDING EVEN THE "NEW YORK TIMES," PRETTY CULPABLE IN THIS INVOLVEMENT, NO?
>> IT SEEMS VERY IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER AND REVISIT ALL OF THOSE COLUMNS, ALL OF THE FRONT PAGES OF THE "NEW YORK TIMES" CARRYING THE MESSAGE THAT THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION WAS PUSHING FORWARD ABOUT WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT WHEN WE GET AROUND TO THE TIME PERIOD IN THE FILM AND IN AMERICAN HISTORY WHEN TRUTH IS VERY MUCH IN PLAY.
AND YOU WONDER WHY ARE PEOPLE SIGNING UP FOR CONSPIRACY THEORIES WHEN THE TRUTH IS IN THE NEWSPAPER EVERY DAY.
BUT THE TRUTH HAD NOT BEEN IN THE NEWSPAPER IN THOSE DAYS.
>> Braude: YOU MENTIONED ALSO ABU GHRAIB, SECRET TORTURE SITES, AND YOU HAVE MORE THAN ONE VOICE IN YOUR FILM, WHO -- AND I'M PARAPHRASING -- WHO SAID WE ESSENTIALLY BECAME THEM.
WHAT EFFECT DID THAT HAVE ON THOSE OF US AT HOME, DO YOU THINK, MICHAEL?
>> I THINK THE PEOPLE WE'VE TALKED TO WHO KNOW, I FEAR IT, AND THEY KNOW IT, WE LOST THAT AMERICAN THING WE HAD ON SEPTEMBER 10th, WHETHER IT WAS JUSTIFIED OR NOT.
WE'RE GOOD PEOPLE.
WE DO THE RIGHT THING, TRUTH, JUSTICE, AND THE AMERICAN WAY.
IT WAS PART OF A SENTENCE WE REPEATED OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
AND THERE IT WAS, AMERICANS HUMILIATING IRAQIS IN FRONT OF CAMERAS, THE TORTURE, ALL OF IT, IT WAS NOT THE AMERICAN WAY.
IT WAS AGAINST THE LAW.
AND I THINK WHEN PEOPLE SAW IT, WHAT THEY TELL US IS WHEN PEOPLE SAW IT, WHEN PEOPLE EXPERIENCED IT, THERE WAS A KIND OF SINKING FEELING LIKE THIS IS NOT AMERICA.
IF COLIN POWELL HAD LIED TO PEOPLE OR AT LEAST DIDN'T SAY THE TRUTH ABOUT WHETHER THERE WAS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION -- THE C.I.A.
WAS WRONG, THE PRESIDENT WAS WRONG, TIME AFTER TIME AFTER TIME.
AND THE EFFECT OF THAT, THEY TELL US, WAS JUST A KIND OF THAT PEOPLE GOT LOST ABOUT WHAT AMERICA WAS.
AND THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE THEIR GOVERNMENT.
AND DIVISION BEGAN TO GROW AT THAT TIME BECAUSE OF THAT.
>> Braude: AND I SHOULD JUST EDITORIALLY SAY, AT LEAST FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, YOU SAID HOW MANY WERE WRONG OR CHOSE TO BE WRONG, IS STILL THE UNANSWERED QUESTION.
YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE VOICES THAT IS BRILLIANT IN YOUR FILM, NEW YORKER'S JANE MAYER, AND SHE SPEAKS TO THE TOLL OF OUR ENDLESS INVOLVEMENTS IN AFGHANISTAN BELONGS ON THE RESUMES OF BOTH PARTIES.
>> THE AFGHAN POLICY WAS A FAILURE, AND ALL OF THE SMARTEST GENERALS AND THE PRESIDENTS OF BOTH PARTIES, NOBODY COULD MAKE THIS POLICY SUCCEED.
♪♪ >> IT'S A HUMILIATION FOR THE UNITED STATES.
>> Braude: BARACK OBAMA WON THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE PRACTICALLY THE SAME DAY HE WAS INAUGURATED, AS I THINK SOMEONE IN THE FILM SAYS FOR NOT BEING GEORGE BUSH.
HE PROMISED A LOT OF THINGS, VIS-AÀ-VIS IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN, QUANTANAMO.
MANY OF THOSE DID NOT HAPPEN.
WHY?
>> IT'S A QUAGMIRE.
NOBODY KNEW WHAT TO DO.
WE WERE REALLY STUCK THERE.
HE DIDN'T FEEL HE COULD LEAVE BECAUSE IF A TERROR ATTACK CAME FROM THERE -- THIS IS AT LEAST WHAT HE WAS TOLD -- THERE GOES YOUR PRESIDENCY.
HE TRIED TO WIN IN AFGHANISTAN WITH THE SURGE THAT GENERAL McCHRYSTAL SAID AFTER THEY FAILED AT THAT ATTACK, THAT IT WAS A BLEEDING ULCER DOWN THERE, AND OBAMA WAS JUST TURNED AROUND ABOUT IT.
HE BEGINS TO RELY ON DRONES TO DO THE DIRTY WORK, TO DO WHAT ONE PERSON IN THE FILM CALLED MOWING THE LAWN.
JUST MOW THE LAWN IN AFGHANISTAN.
KEEP TERRORISM DOWN.
DON'T LET IT COME FROM THERE.
THAT WAS THE STRATEGY THERE.
IT WAS A FAILURE, JUST AS IT HAD BEEN WITH BUSH.
AND IT IS SO -- IT IS A LITTLE VIETNAM-LIKE WITH L.B.J., THEY CAN'T GET OUT OF IT.
THERE IS JUST NO GOOD PLACE TO GO ONCE YOU GET IN THERE.
>> Braude: AND THE ONE THING HE DID TRY TO DO, WHICH WAS CLOSE QUANTANAMO, HE WAS OVERRULED, AS YOU SHOW US IN YOUR FILM, BY A NARROW 90-6 MARGIN BY THE UNITED STATES SENATE.
THE BRILLIANCE OF DONALD TRUMP IS ALSO ON DISPLAY HERE.
WHILE PRIOR PRESIDENTS TRIED TO USE 9/11 AS A UNANIMITY MEASURE, HE USED IT -- IN TERMS OF THE LANGUAGE ON THE WAR ON TERROR, HIS PERCEIVED ENEMIES HERE IN THIS COUNTRY, AND IN MANY WAYS IT LED TO HIS -- AND I USE THE TERM ADVISABLY -- SUCCESS, NO?
>> YES.
MANY PEOPLE WE TALKED TO -- I WAS SURPRISED BY THE WAY THEY COULD FORMULATE THE CONCLUSION.
BUT HERE IS TRUMP USING THE LANGUAGE OF THE WAR BUT CHANGING ISLAMIC TERRORISTS, HE CHANGED IT TO ANT AN TEVTIFA, BLACK LIVES MATTER, HOPING AND USING THE MILITARY SURPLUS WEAPONS -- ENCOURAGING CITIES TO USE IT -- IT WAS A DEMONSTRATION OF HOW THAT PRESIDENT WAS ALSO TRAPPED BY THE WARS, BUT HE JUST MANAGED -- HE BROUGHT THEM HOME AND WAS TRAPPED BY WHAT HAPPENED ON THE STREETS OF AMERICA.
>> Braude: WE ONLY HAVE A COUPLE OF SECONDS LEFT, BUT CAN WE END WITH THE SAME WOMAN I WAS PRAISING A MINUTE AGO.
YOU HAVE JANE MAYER TALKING ABOUT THE IRONIES OF OUR MULTIPLE INVOLVEMENTS OVERSEAS.
WHAT DID SHE SAY, MICHAEL?
>> THE THING JANE MAYER SAYS, AMERICA OUT THERE TRYING TO SPREAD DEMOCRACY, FOSTERING DEMOCRACY, UNDER THE NAME OF DEMOCRACY WE INVADED IRAQ, WE INVADED AFGHANISTAN, WE TORTURED, WE DID ALL OF THOSE THINGS.
THE GREAT IRONY IS WE'RE LOSING IT AT HOME.
WE'RE FIGHTING FOR DEMOCRACY RIGHT HERE AT HOME 20 YEARS LATER.
THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED AFTER 9/11 IN AMERICA.
>> Braude: MICHAEL, I'VE SAID THIS TO YOU MANY TIMES, I'LL SAY IT TO YOU AGAIN: THIS FILM IS BRILL YAPTBRILLIANT AND REALLY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY TO WATCH.
THANK YOU, MICHAEL.
>> THANK YOU, JIM.
>> Braude: YOU CAN WATCH "AMERICA AFTER 9/11" ANY TIME ONLINE AT www.pbs.org/frontline.
>>> THE CITY OF EVERETT DOESN'T USUALLY MAKE NEWS LIKE BOSTON, AND FOR GOOD AND THE CITY IT GAVE NEW LIFE'S TO, NORTH ADAMS.
THAT AND MORE TOMORROW NIGHT AT 7:00.
THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.
Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org ♪♪