WEBVTT 00:00.533 --> 00:02.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [Scott] Next on "Energy Switch," 00:02.133 --> 00:05.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% we'll talk about how to power and empower 00:05.033 --> 00:07.333 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% billions of people in developing nations. 00:07.333 --> 00:09.866 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - I think we have to recognize the heterogeneity 00:09.866 --> 00:11.600 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% among poor countries, 00:11.600 --> 00:13.766 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and the rates at which they're progressing 00:13.766 --> 00:15.866 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% towards becoming big emitters. 00:15.866 --> 00:18.300 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% Africa isn't there yet. 00:18.300 --> 00:20.933 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And putting too much emphasis on climate 00:20.933 --> 00:23.166 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% as a priority in Africa is a mistake. 00:23.166 --> 00:25.266 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% We need to focus on access. 00:25.266 --> 00:26.700 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Look, the growth is going to come 00:26.700 --> 00:28.600 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% whether organically or by design. 00:28.600 --> 00:31.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The question is, how can you nudge it in directions 00:31.166 --> 00:33.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that are gonna be really beneficial for people 00:33.033 --> 00:35.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as well as for the planet and society as a whole. 00:35.666 --> 00:37.333 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% We can't spend the next seven or eight years 00:37.333 --> 00:39.800 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% figuring out how we are going to do this. 00:39.800 --> 00:41.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We have to start doing this now. 00:42.266 --> 00:44.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% [Scott] Coming up on "Energy Switch," 00:44.300 --> 00:46.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% how can we power the developing world? 00:48.866 --> 00:50.033 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% [Announcer] Funding for "Energy Switch" 00:50.033 --> 00:53.300 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% was provided in part by 00:53.300 --> 00:55.933 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% The University of Texas at Austin, 00:55.933 --> 00:58.300 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% leading research in energy and the environment 00:58.300 --> 01:00.166 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% for a better tomorrow. 01:00.166 --> 01:02.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% What starts here changes the world. 01:04.000 --> 01:06.000 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% And by EarthX, 01:06.000 --> 01:07.533 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% an international nonprofit 01:07.533 --> 01:10.233 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% working towards a more sustainable future. 01:10.233 --> 01:12.833 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% See more at earthx.org. 01:14.733 --> 01:15.933 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - I'm Scott Tinker 01:15.933 --> 01:17.400 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and I'm an energy scientist. 01:18.200 --> 01:19.600 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% I work in the field, 01:19.600 --> 01:20.766 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% lead research, 01:20.766 --> 01:22.266 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% speak around the world, 01:22.266 --> 01:23.566 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% write articles 01:23.566 --> 01:25.900 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and make films about energy. 01:26.500 --> 01:29.066 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% This show brings together leading experts 01:29.066 --> 01:32.100 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% on vital topics in energy and climate. 01:32.100 --> 01:34.000 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% They may have different perspectives, 01:34.000 --> 01:37.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% but my goal is to learn and illuminate 01:37.033 --> 01:40.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and bring diverging views together towards solutions. 01:41.166 --> 01:43.366 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% Welcome to the "Energy Switch." 01:45.533 --> 01:48.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Today, three quarters of the world's population, 01:48.766 --> 01:50.600 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% that's six billion people, 01:50.600 --> 01:54.200 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% don't have access to reliable, affordable energy. 01:54.200 --> 01:57.433 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% One billion don't have any modern energy at all, 01:57.433 --> 02:02.066 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and get all their energy from burning wood, straw or dung. 02:02.066 --> 02:04.233 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Lack of energy makes their lives difficult, 02:04.233 --> 02:06.333 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% unhealthy and short. 02:06.333 --> 02:09.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We'll talk about how they could get clean cooking fuels, 02:09.233 --> 02:12.166 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% electricity, and other basic energy services 02:12.166 --> 02:14.333 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% with my expert guests, 02:14.333 --> 02:16.300 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% Ashvin Dayal. 02:16.300 --> 02:19.266 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% He's the senior vice president for power and climate, 02:19.266 --> 02:22.166 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% and the Global Energy Alliance for people in the planet 02:22.166 --> 02:24.433 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% at the Rockefeller Foundation. 02:24.433 --> 02:27.566 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% He's joined by Dr. Rob Stoner. 02:27.566 --> 02:30.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's the deputy director for science and technology 02:30.266 --> 02:32.433 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% at the MIT Energy initiative. 02:32.433 --> 02:36.233 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Before that, as CEO of the Clinton Development Initiative, 02:36.233 --> 02:38.133 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% he lived in Africa and India 02:38.133 --> 02:40.233 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% working to increase energy access. 02:41.000 --> 02:43.233 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% On this episode of "Energy Switch," 02:43.233 --> 02:45.500 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% How Do We Power the Developing World? 02:46.633 --> 02:50.166 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Let's talk about the state of energy as it exists today 02:50.166 --> 02:53.566 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and some of the developing and emerging areas, 02:53.566 --> 02:55.933 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% India, Africa, Latin America. 02:55.933 --> 03:00.166 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% What are the big areas that energy is needed 03:00.166 --> 03:02.966 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% in these emerging and developing economies? 03:02.966 --> 03:04.466 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - Well, the first thing you have to do 03:04.466 --> 03:07.500 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% is provide for people's actual needs in their daily lives. 03:07.500 --> 03:10.000 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% We're talking about electricity for lighting 03:10.000 --> 03:11.966 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and cell phone charging and so on. 03:11.966 --> 03:14.666 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% But the big energy consumer is cooking. 03:14.666 --> 03:18.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And yet the vast majority of energy in Africa, 03:18.500 --> 03:21.566 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% certainly in much of India, is biomass. 03:21.566 --> 03:23.866 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% People burning sticks and dung. 03:23.866 --> 03:25.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And then transportation. 03:25.500 --> 03:28.366 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And that the fuel for those cars in many cases 03:28.366 --> 03:30.133 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% is a big drag on the economy, 03:30.133 --> 03:31.900 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% because many of them don't-- 03:31.900 --> 03:33.833 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% although they may produce oil locally, 03:33.833 --> 03:35.166 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% they don't refine it locally. 03:35.166 --> 03:37.466 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And so this becomes a balance of trade issue. 03:37.466 --> 03:38.833 align:left position:42.5% line:83% size:47.5% - Sure. - And is very significant. 03:38.833 --> 03:41.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% So they need another path for transportation. 03:41.033 --> 03:42.300 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% - Yeah. Yeah. 03:42.300 --> 03:44.733 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% So electricity, cooking, transportation. 03:44.733 --> 03:46.166 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - I mean, it's hard to generalize 03:46.166 --> 03:47.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% about developing and emerging economies, 03:47.533 --> 03:49.200 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% but the entire residential sector 03:49.200 --> 03:50.566 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% is gonna be a big growth area 03:50.566 --> 03:52.000 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% because people inside their homes 03:52.000 --> 03:53.533 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% are trying to consume more. 03:53.533 --> 03:55.966 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Just take cooling as an example of that. 03:55.966 --> 03:58.300 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% You've then got all of the industrial economy 03:58.300 --> 04:00.700 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and manufacturing that is growing, again, 04:00.700 --> 04:02.200 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% differently in different economies, 04:02.200 --> 04:04.433 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% but it's a huge energy needs. 04:04.433 --> 04:06.633 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Let's not forget the agricultural sector 04:06.633 --> 04:08.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as a massive consumer of energy. 04:08.600 --> 04:10.200 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% And these are economies often 04:10.200 --> 04:12.600 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% that are still 70, 80% of their GDP 04:12.600 --> 04:14.133 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% is coming out of agriculture. 04:14.133 --> 04:15.933 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And then of course you've got transportation 04:15.933 --> 04:18.366 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% at a individual or household level, 04:18.366 --> 04:20.400 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% but you've got public transport, mass transit. 04:20.400 --> 04:23.033 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% There's massive amounts of infrastructure investment 04:23.033 --> 04:24.733 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% that these economies are wanting to make 04:24.733 --> 04:27.100 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% over the next 10, 15, 20 years. 04:27.100 --> 04:29.533 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% So you add all of that together and, yeah, demand, 04:29.533 --> 04:30.800 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% it is a huge- 04:30.800 --> 04:32.300 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - Everything we take for granted. 04:32.300 --> 04:33.133 align:left position:37.5% line:89% size:52.5% - Exactly. 04:33.133 --> 04:34.533 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% - Let's dive into these topics. 04:34.533 --> 04:36.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, each one of them has issues and things 04:36.966 --> 04:38.933 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% but let's talk about electricity. 04:38.933 --> 04:41.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% For those of us who came through last century, 04:41.400 --> 04:44.600 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% UK, Germany, us, China's doing that, 04:44.600 --> 04:46.066 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% India, but other people too. 04:46.066 --> 04:47.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% A lot of Southeast Asia, 04:47.200 --> 04:49.033 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% that's been coal. 04:49.033 --> 04:50.233 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% How do we do it? 04:50.233 --> 04:51.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - But the power the power system is more than generation. 04:51.933 --> 04:53.100 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% Generation's important. 04:53.100 --> 04:54.300 align:left position:37.5% line:89% size:52.5% - Correct. 04:54.300 --> 04:56.933 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - But you've gotta move the power you generate to cities 04:56.933 --> 04:58.133 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% where the loads are 04:58.133 --> 04:59.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and you've gotta distribute it within the city. 04:59.533 --> 05:00.600 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% So there's this sort of 05:00.600 --> 05:03.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% generation-transmission- distribution sequence, 05:03.300 --> 05:05.833 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and the whole thing has to work or nothing happens. 05:05.833 --> 05:08.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's a distribution where the power system over there 05:08.966 --> 05:11.300 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% meets the guys who have to pay, 05:11.300 --> 05:12.800 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% and they're sensitive to price. 05:12.800 --> 05:14.300 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% The power companies are usually asked 05:14.300 --> 05:15.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to provide power to more of them 05:15.833 --> 05:18.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% than they can reasonably provide power to. 05:18.200 --> 05:19.833 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And that means that they're short on revenues 05:19.833 --> 05:23.766 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and they can't maintain the lines and reliability suffers. 05:23.766 --> 05:26.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And then you get angry customers at the end of the line. 05:26.200 --> 05:27.866 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% So they get into a spiral. 05:27.866 --> 05:31.600 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And that's a big problem in all of the electricity systems. 05:31.600 --> 05:33.766 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I would say it's common to electricity 05:33.766 --> 05:35.600 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% throughout the world. 05:35.600 --> 05:37.766 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - And it's a political subject, right? 05:37.766 --> 05:40.966 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% In poor countries where people can't afford a lot of power, 05:40.966 --> 05:44.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% governments are reluctant to price electricity 05:44.300 --> 05:46.266 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% in a way that is both affordable on the one hand, 05:46.266 --> 05:49.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% but also allows the utility to recoup and operate 05:49.533 --> 05:52.766 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% on a profitable or at least on a sustainable basis. 05:52.766 --> 05:55.000 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% So Rob's exactly right. 05:55.000 --> 05:57.966 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% The generation challenge in several of these economies 05:57.966 --> 05:59.866 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% has been solved because governments are 05:59.866 --> 06:01.900 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% providing guarantees and PPAs, et cetera, 06:01.900 --> 06:04.333 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% and underwriting the off-taker. 06:04.333 --> 06:06.200 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% But this question of the last mile 06:06.200 --> 06:08.033 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% utility distribution question 06:08.033 --> 06:11.100 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% is politically not being challenged. 06:11.100 --> 06:12.933 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% In sub-Saharan Africa, 06:12.933 --> 06:16.066 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% there are only two profitable utilities. 06:16.066 --> 06:18.566 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% So this tells you the story. 06:18.566 --> 06:20.700 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% In India, in many distribution companies, 06:20.700 --> 06:22.533 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% every unit of electricity they sell, 06:22.533 --> 06:25.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% they're actually losing money on it. 06:25.000 --> 06:28.033 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% So it's actually a disincentive to add a customer 06:28.033 --> 06:30.166 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% who's a low consuming customer. 06:30.166 --> 06:31.200 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - Right. Right. 06:31.200 --> 06:33.700 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - So we need a massive wave of reform 06:33.700 --> 06:35.333 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% in the distribution sector 06:35.333 --> 06:38.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in order to then have the positive benefits upstream 06:38.066 --> 06:39.833 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% into transmission and generation. 06:39.833 --> 06:41.000 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% Until you have that, 06:41.000 --> 06:43.200 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% we won't be able to change the energy mix. 06:43.200 --> 06:44.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - We've talked about the challenges on the 06:44.766 --> 06:48.033 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% distribution end, the last mile and the economics of that 06:48.033 --> 06:51.866 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and the realities that come upstream, making it. 06:51.866 --> 06:54.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Africa is building a lot of dams, hydro, 06:54.033 --> 06:56.100 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and in Latin America and South America, 06:56.100 --> 06:57.833 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% does India have optionality there? 06:57.833 --> 06:59.100 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5% - Yeah. 06:59.100 --> 07:02.100 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% And India has had a significant number of large hydro dams. 07:02.100 --> 07:04.600 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Look, they don't come without complications. 07:04.600 --> 07:08.000 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% There's massive social dislocation issues around that. 07:08.000 --> 07:09.266 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% - Yeah, sure. 07:09.266 --> 07:11.600 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - There's a lot of potential with smaller hydro actually. 07:11.600 --> 07:12.733 align:left position:37.5% line:89% size:52.5% Microhydro, 07:12.733 --> 07:14.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there's some new turbine technology that's coming through 07:14.766 --> 07:16.333 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% that could be very exciting and actually quite applicable 07:16.333 --> 07:17.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in some of the economies we are talking about. 07:17.833 --> 07:20.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And even places like the Democratic Republic of Congo, 07:20.233 --> 07:21.800 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% you're seeing run of the river, 07:21.800 --> 07:23.833 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% I mean, smaller scale hydro systems 07:23.833 --> 07:25.333 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% that could be very effective. 07:25.333 --> 07:27.566 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - Partnering with solar and wind to provide the reliability. 07:27.566 --> 07:28.666 align:left position:37.5% line:89% size:52.5% - Exactly. 07:28.666 --> 07:30.933 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% The challenge with large hydro now 07:30.933 --> 07:33.233 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% comes back to the question of climate change. 07:33.233 --> 07:39.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And actually we're seeing now the water levels in dams, 07:39.466 --> 07:40.766 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% et cetera, being affected. 07:40.766 --> 07:43.800 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% So there is that risk that has to be factored in. 07:43.800 --> 07:45.933 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% So I think looking at smaller hydro 07:45.933 --> 07:48.466 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% is something that we should actually do a lot more of. 07:48.466 --> 07:52.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - It's a huge undeveloped resource in Africa especially. 07:52.933 --> 07:56.466 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% And Africa, sub-Saharan Africa outside South Africa 07:56.466 --> 07:58.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% is still majority hydro. 07:58.933 --> 07:59.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% They've got other stuff. 07:59.933 --> 08:01.366 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% They got effectively no coal. 08:01.366 --> 08:04.900 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% So the forward trajectory, if the past is a guide, 08:04.900 --> 08:08.033 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% is that Africa will not be coal dependent 08:08.033 --> 08:10.700 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% or major coal consumer. 08:10.700 --> 08:12.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - But we need to talk about diesel as well though, 08:12.533 --> 08:14.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% because my big worry is that the alternative 08:14.533 --> 08:16.833 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% to inefficient electrification systems 08:16.833 --> 08:20.200 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% is that the world is relying heavily on diesel, 08:20.200 --> 08:22.866 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% highly inefficient small scale systems. 08:22.866 --> 08:26.200 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Take Nigeria, if I have my numbers correct, 08:26.200 --> 08:30.700 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% there is something like about 45 to 50 gigawatts of diesel 08:30.700 --> 08:31.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% operating in that country 08:31.900 --> 08:35.000 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% against a grid that is only evacuating about six. 08:35.000 --> 08:37.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, that is probably one of the least efficient 08:37.466 --> 08:40.366 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% ways of powering your economy that I can possibly- 08:40.366 --> 08:43.733 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - Well, the Middle East burns a lot of oil and natural gas 08:43.733 --> 08:45.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to do a variety of things from power to desal 08:45.866 --> 08:47.000 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% and the whole-- 08:47.000 --> 08:48.233 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% What about geothermal? 08:48.233 --> 08:49.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Africa has geothermal potential. 08:49.833 --> 08:51.466 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% We look in- - Kenya has- 08:51.466 --> 08:55.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Kenya has continued to develop its assets around Olkaria 08:55.733 --> 08:59.366 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and they're important, but rather limited geographically. 08:59.366 --> 09:04.633 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% Ethiopia has, for many years, developed geothermal resources 09:04.633 --> 09:06.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and run into reliability problems over time 09:06.433 --> 09:08.066 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% because of poor maintenance. 09:08.066 --> 09:10.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Those things can clearly be fixed. 09:10.033 --> 09:13.466 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% I think geothermal's great, but I don't think it's a panacea. 09:13.466 --> 09:15.133 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - If you have it. - If you have it. Exactly. 09:15.133 --> 09:16.100 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - Yeah, it's a piece. 09:16.100 --> 09:17.800 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - It's a really risky thing to develop 09:17.800 --> 09:19.966 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% because you've got to do a lot of drilling. 09:19.966 --> 09:21.466 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% And drilling is expensive. 09:21.466 --> 09:25.066 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And your odds of coming up with a resource that's adequate 09:25.066 --> 09:27.200 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% are not high. 09:27.200 --> 09:28.233 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% - Firm power, 09:28.233 --> 09:32.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% I mean, base load or dispatchable firm power, 09:32.533 --> 09:34.600 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% coal, natural gas, 09:34.600 --> 09:37.233 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% nuclear, hydro, geothermal. 09:37.233 --> 09:38.866 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% You need some of that. 09:38.866 --> 09:39.900 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% We can't do it all. 09:39.900 --> 09:42.700 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% I mean, let's talk about solar and wind. 09:42.700 --> 09:45.966 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% First, electricity is a panel on the roof usually, right? 09:45.966 --> 09:47.400 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% What's the benefit of that? 09:47.400 --> 09:49.233 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% - It's transformational, right? 09:49.233 --> 09:50.433 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% You think about it. 09:50.433 --> 09:55.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You are in a market place in a small rural setting, 09:55.200 --> 09:57.466 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% it's six o'clock, it's dark. 09:57.466 --> 10:00.433 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% If you don't have good quality lighting, 10:00.433 --> 10:02.866 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% the economy starts to sort of go to sleep for the day. 10:02.866 --> 10:04.133 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% You have it, it stays open 10:04.133 --> 10:06.233 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% another two or three hours more of commerce 10:06.233 --> 10:08.233 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% taking place in that environment. 10:08.233 --> 10:09.900 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% If I'm a carpenter, 10:09.900 --> 10:12.433 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% I'm using manual tools. 10:12.433 --> 10:15.066 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% All of a sudden I'm able to bring in a mechanized tool 10:15.066 --> 10:16.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% into my workshop. 10:16.100 --> 10:17.633 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I'm hiring two or three other people. 10:17.633 --> 10:19.733 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And these are things that I've seen personally 10:19.733 --> 10:22.533 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% over the last 10, 15 years of working on these distributed 10:22.533 --> 10:25.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% renewable energy systems. 10:25.066 --> 10:26.933 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% Not because they're renewable, 10:26.933 --> 10:30.766 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% but because they work for those people in those economies, 10:30.766 --> 10:33.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in those places where the grid is actually absent 10:33.233 --> 10:34.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% or completely unreliable. 10:34.766 --> 10:39.100 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - And because it's local and it's fit for purpose, it lasts. 10:39.100 --> 10:40.533 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - It lasts and it will grow. 10:40.533 --> 10:42.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And people's aspirations change. 10:42.866 --> 10:44.100 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% And so-- 10:44.100 --> 10:46.866 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% We are always talking about it as planners as sort of like, 10:46.866 --> 10:48.600 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% people can't afford or people-- 10:48.600 --> 10:50.900 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% there isn't the economy and you are absolutely right. 10:50.900 --> 10:53.200 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% But you also have to light the spark somewhere. 10:53.200 --> 10:54.433 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% And you have to sort of create 10:54.433 --> 10:56.366 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% a bit of that bottom-up opportunity. 10:56.366 --> 10:59.700 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% - So let's just talk briefly about batteries. 10:59.700 --> 11:01.133 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% They're getting better, the technology, 11:01.133 --> 11:02.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% they're getting more affordable. 11:02.466 --> 11:05.833 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - The issue that I think we must talk about with storage 11:05.833 --> 11:09.633 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% is also the need for these sort of system integrators 11:09.633 --> 11:11.166 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% in the markets that we are talking about, 11:11.166 --> 11:13.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that can actually deploy these technologies. 11:13.000 --> 11:15.700 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% The sort of applied innovation side of all of this 11:15.700 --> 11:17.300 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% is really, really important. 11:17.300 --> 11:18.466 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% It's one thing to say, 11:18.466 --> 11:20.366 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% "The global price of lithium ion is this." 11:20.366 --> 11:21.533 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% It's another to say, 11:21.533 --> 11:24.633 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% "Well, what does it cost to land it in rural Nigeria?" 11:24.633 --> 11:27.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that's where we need more international support 11:27.800 --> 11:31.000 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and more cooperation around things like pooled procurement, 11:31.000 --> 11:32.966 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% for example, how do you get these small systems 11:32.966 --> 11:34.866 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% to actually come together? 11:34.866 --> 11:38.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Because any one developer trying to put in a 200 kilowatt 11:38.133 --> 11:40.166 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% system in one village, 11:40.166 --> 11:42.433 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% I mean, for them the price is three or four x 11:42.433 --> 11:44.133 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% what we are seeing in global markets. 11:44.133 --> 11:47.966 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% We need governments to not run microgrids 11:47.966 --> 11:50.366 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and off-grid solutions that use storage, 11:50.366 --> 11:52.200 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% but to at least regulate and support it 11:52.200 --> 11:55.133 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% in a way that you need these systems to be integrated. 11:55.133 --> 11:57.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Not sort of fly-by-night operators building 11:57.166 --> 11:58.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% a microgrid here 11:58.100 --> 11:59.666 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and then disappearing five years later. 11:59.666 --> 12:00.866 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% We don't want that. 12:00.866 --> 12:01.833 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% Nobody wants that. 12:01.833 --> 12:04.533 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% But it needs to be a regulated sector. 12:04.533 --> 12:07.433 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - So we've talked a lot about electricity, 12:07.433 --> 12:09.000 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% all these systems. 12:09.000 --> 12:10.400 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% How do we do all that 12:10.400 --> 12:13.566 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and then still being mindful of environmental impacts? 12:13.566 --> 12:16.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There's tension sometimes between lower emissions things 12:16.766 --> 12:19.400 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% that consume a lot of land, 12:19.400 --> 12:21.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or that challenge water systems. 12:21.833 --> 12:24.433 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Including by the way, solar and wind. 12:24.433 --> 12:25.866 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% They're very visible. 12:25.866 --> 12:28.700 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% They're very visible now in some places 12:28.700 --> 12:32.100 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% where we're still at a very low level of penetration. 12:32.100 --> 12:33.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I find it a little bit worrisome 12:33.766 --> 12:35.700 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to think that we're seriously talking 12:35.700 --> 12:38.000 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% about having an all solar-wind-battery 12:38.000 --> 12:39.366 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% kind of electrical system. 12:39.366 --> 12:40.933 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% I mean, I'm afraid 12:40.933 --> 12:42.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that by the time you get anywhere close to that, 12:42.766 --> 12:46.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the public backlash makes nuclear look attractive. 12:46.366 --> 12:47.566 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - The environmental backlash. 12:47.566 --> 12:50.833 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - Yes, I mean, that's a lot of land you're consuming. 12:50.833 --> 12:53.000 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% And no land is wasted land. 12:53.000 --> 12:55.600 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% So we have to keep on innovating. 12:55.600 --> 12:59.400 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And I look at these as all stages along the path 12:59.400 --> 13:02.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% toward better and lower emitting 13:02.433 --> 13:05.666 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% and more energy dense technologies over time. 13:05.666 --> 13:08.000 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% - These are massive challenges. 13:08.000 --> 13:09.433 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% We are struggling to figure this out 13:09.433 --> 13:11.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in the US and in Europe. 13:11.900 --> 13:15.266 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% What do you expect Nigeria to do? 13:15.266 --> 13:18.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Think about just being an energy regulator in Africa 13:18.633 --> 13:22.766 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% and you are basically working on a 20th century model. 13:22.766 --> 13:25.000 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And now we are talking about getting to net zero. 13:25.000 --> 13:26.766 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% All over countries right now they're being asked like, 13:26.766 --> 13:27.900 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% "Tell us your plan. 13:27.900 --> 13:29.733 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% How you gonna do it?" 13:29.733 --> 13:31.300 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% They don't know. 13:31.300 --> 13:34.133 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% So there's just an enormous amount of support needed, 13:34.133 --> 13:38.100 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% because they need to know that the energy transition concept 13:38.100 --> 13:40.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is one that is also about economic development. 13:40.433 --> 13:42.966 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And about meeting those aspirations 13:42.966 --> 13:45.500 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% around affordability, reliability, all of that. 13:45.500 --> 13:48.100 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% If it's going to be sort of a dogmatic push 13:48.100 --> 13:52.400 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% towards only optimizing for decarbonization, 13:52.400 --> 13:55.066 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% it's not gonna work for those societies. 13:55.066 --> 13:58.300 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% - Yeah, yeah, it's not simple, 13:58.300 --> 13:59.733 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% but it's solvable. 13:59.733 --> 14:02.066 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% But it's only solvable if we recognize it's not simple. 14:02.066 --> 14:04.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, we all have to be in the game, I think. 14:04.066 --> 14:07.066 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% We have a lot to contribute as advanced economies 14:07.066 --> 14:09.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to that discussion and activity, 14:09.066 --> 14:11.500 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% but really can't be top-down. 14:11.500 --> 14:12.633 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% [Scott] It's a tough problem. 14:12.633 --> 14:13.866 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% [Rob] It's very hard, yeah. 14:13.866 --> 14:15.466 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - Let's talk about cooking. 14:15.466 --> 14:17.833 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% It's a giant challenge. 14:17.833 --> 14:20.233 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% Kills two to three million people a year 14:20.233 --> 14:22.033 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% breathing indoor smoke. 14:22.033 --> 14:23.633 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% How many people cook this way? 14:23.633 --> 14:25.033 align:left position:45% line:89% size:45% Why? 14:25.033 --> 14:26.233 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% And let's start to think about 14:26.233 --> 14:28.166 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and talk about what are the options for them? 14:28.166 --> 14:29.666 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% - It's at hand, right? 14:29.666 --> 14:32.900 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% If you can go out and you can cut down a tree 14:32.900 --> 14:36.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% or find a branch or collect dung as often happens, 14:36.533 --> 14:38.466 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% and burn it. 14:38.466 --> 14:42.133 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% And that is a quick and very inexpensive way. 14:42.133 --> 14:45.900 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% Usually free to provide energy for cooking in rural areas. 14:45.900 --> 14:48.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% The same sort of biomass source of wood 14:48.000 --> 14:49.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is often used in cities as well, 14:49.200 --> 14:50.800 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% but usually in the form of charcoal. 14:50.800 --> 14:55.533 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% In fact, its cheapness and ubiquity mean that it persists. 14:55.533 --> 14:59.233 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% So if you look at electricity access over the last 20 years, 14:59.233 --> 15:01.700 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% we've made tremendous progress globally. 15:01.700 --> 15:03.800 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% Access to modern cooking fuels 15:03.800 --> 15:06.066 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% has basically just sat there for 20 years, 15:06.066 --> 15:07.566 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% hasn't gone anywhere. 15:07.566 --> 15:10.700 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% And there has been a lot of initiative by governments 15:10.700 --> 15:13.300 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% to try to prevent that from happening 15:13.300 --> 15:16.733 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% by moving toward liquified petroleum gas, LPG. 15:16.733 --> 15:17.700 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - The other thing is 15:17.700 --> 15:19.700 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% that the collection burden for all of this 15:19.700 --> 15:21.266 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and the time burden for all this, 15:21.266 --> 15:24.366 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% disproportionately falls on on women. 15:24.366 --> 15:27.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% So there's a huge social inequity issue 15:27.033 --> 15:29.766 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% around dirty forms of cooking. 15:29.766 --> 15:32.700 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% I think the LPG option 15:32.700 --> 15:35.366 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% that was very widely promoted in India 15:35.366 --> 15:37.900 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% has been a huge improvement. 15:37.900 --> 15:39.900 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% That there are affordability challenges there, 15:39.900 --> 15:44.366 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% because replacing those gas cylinders, as they'll called, 15:44.366 --> 15:45.400 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% is expensive. 15:45.400 --> 15:47.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And they've been reducing subsidies on that 15:47.033 --> 15:48.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because governments can't afford 15:48.566 --> 15:50.766 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to keep bankrolling these things. 15:50.766 --> 15:53.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% So there is that significant challenge. 15:53.566 --> 15:54.733 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% I think we have to do-- 15:54.733 --> 15:57.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There's a lot more we can do on electric cooking. 15:57.100 --> 15:58.933 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% The technologies are so much improved now 15:58.933 --> 16:00.500 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% compared to the first generations that 16:00.500 --> 16:01.466 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% were being tried. 16:01.466 --> 16:03.100 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% I feel like now we are getting to a point 16:03.100 --> 16:05.833 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% where the technology really is ready to be scaled up. 16:05.833 --> 16:07.333 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% There's gonna be some other things needed. 16:07.333 --> 16:09.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% These systems, even $30, $40, $50 systems, 16:09.966 --> 16:12.100 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% that's a lot of money for a poor family. 16:12.100 --> 16:13.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So how do we make the financing? 16:13.966 --> 16:16.600 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% We have to turn it into a consumer product 16:16.600 --> 16:19.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in order to actually make the product affordable 16:19.766 --> 16:22.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for people to be able to make it an easy purchase, 16:22.033 --> 16:23.366 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% not something that they have to actually 16:23.366 --> 16:25.300 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% really think deeply about. 16:25.300 --> 16:28.633 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% It also could become a real win-win synergy 16:28.633 --> 16:31.266 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% with trying to create the load that's needed 16:31.266 --> 16:35.033 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to make electricity systems more viable. 16:35.033 --> 16:37.800 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - Because it just stabilizes the grid- 16:37.800 --> 16:38.866 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% - It creates demand. 16:38.866 --> 16:40.433 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% It creates predictable demand. 16:40.433 --> 16:42.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% So it allows a developer, 16:42.300 --> 16:44.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% whether it's an off grid, mini-grid developer 16:44.133 --> 16:45.966 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% or a utility 16:45.966 --> 16:49.766 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% to have that much more assured load on their system, 16:49.766 --> 16:52.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which would help with the economics of the grid itself. 16:52.933 --> 16:56.166 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - Biogas, how's that looking? 16:56.166 --> 16:57.833 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% It seems like a pretty reasonable solution 16:57.833 --> 17:00.166 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% particularly in rural areas. 17:00.166 --> 17:02.900 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Biomass, you make it by taking biomass 17:02.900 --> 17:04.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and letting it decompose, 17:04.700 --> 17:07.166 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% but, yeah, it's readily available everywhere, 17:07.166 --> 17:08.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% everywhere there's waste. 17:08.533 --> 17:11.433 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% It gives you a locally produced source of gas 17:11.433 --> 17:15.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that may require capital subsidy from the government 17:15.000 --> 17:17.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to enable people to build a system that will do this 17:17.700 --> 17:18.766 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% and distribute the energy. 17:18.766 --> 17:19.966 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - Initial upfront investment. 17:19.966 --> 17:21.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% - But from then on, it doesn't cost anything. 17:21.666 --> 17:23.433 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% So very attractive. 17:23.433 --> 17:25.166 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% I think Ashvin you'll know better, 17:25.166 --> 17:26.666 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% but this has been practiced in India 17:26.666 --> 17:28.600 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% for many, many years successfully. 17:28.600 --> 17:29.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Yeah, yeah. No, it has. 17:29.800 --> 17:32.066 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% I think we are getting to a point where the technologies 17:32.066 --> 17:33.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% are getting much more efficient, 17:33.566 --> 17:36.066 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% and you're also seeing some sort of commercial players 17:36.066 --> 17:40.100 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% come into this space in terms of biogas, bio-CNG, et cetera. 17:41.233 --> 17:42.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And it has deal benefits. 17:42.700 --> 17:44.833 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% If you think about it back to the conversation 17:44.833 --> 17:47.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we were having about distributed renewable electrification 17:47.166 --> 17:49.900 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and solar and the role of storage. 17:49.900 --> 17:51.600 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% If you're running a mini-grid, 17:51.600 --> 17:55.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% you have some options for your base load 17:55.033 --> 17:56.400 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and your evening load, et cetera. 17:56.400 --> 17:59.400 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% And that's storage or diesel, 17:59.400 --> 18:01.833 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and now increasingly, biogas. 18:01.833 --> 18:03.966 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% I think there's a huge amount of potential there. 18:03.966 --> 18:06.233 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And it feels like we're on the cusp 18:06.233 --> 18:10.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of something that could actually really be quite powerful. 18:10.066 --> 18:10.933 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% - New topic. 18:10.933 --> 18:12.233 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% Transportation. 18:12.233 --> 18:14.233 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% How are these emerging and developing economies 18:14.233 --> 18:15.900 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% gonna move themselves around? 18:15.900 --> 18:17.600 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% What are some of the options there? 18:17.600 --> 18:19.066 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Look, the growth is going to come 18:19.066 --> 18:21.233 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% whether organically or by design. 18:21.233 --> 18:22.333 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% The question is, 18:22.333 --> 18:24.066 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% how can you nudge it in directions 18:24.066 --> 18:25.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that are gonna be really beneficial for people 18:25.933 --> 18:28.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as well as for the planet and society as a whole? 18:28.466 --> 18:32.000 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% I think the whole EV conversation is one 18:32.000 --> 18:33.933 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% that is taking off. 18:33.933 --> 18:36.166 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% I think it has some challenges 18:36.166 --> 18:37.933 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% because there's all of the challenges 18:37.933 --> 18:41.633 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% with having an electric vehicle ecosystem that goes with it. 18:41.633 --> 18:43.266 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% But it's quite interesting to see what's happening 18:43.266 --> 18:45.066 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% with sort of bottom-up. 18:45.066 --> 18:46.400 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% Again, bottom-up innovation 18:46.400 --> 18:48.066 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% on things like two-wheeler and three-wheeler 18:48.066 --> 18:49.633 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% electric vehicle transport, 18:49.633 --> 18:53.666 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% startups in countries like Kenya and Uganda, et cetera, 18:53.666 --> 18:57.066 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% that are renting vehicle services, 18:57.066 --> 18:59.500 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% commercial transport services that are all electrified. 18:59.500 --> 19:04.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% So it's exciting what's happening. 19:04.033 --> 19:07.733 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% My concern though is that there may be some inefficiencies 19:07.733 --> 19:09.200 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% that are kind of coming into this 19:09.200 --> 19:10.900 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% because there isn't enough thinking 19:10.900 --> 19:13.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about sort of integrated transport and mobility. 19:13.700 --> 19:17.733 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - Let's think about increasingly heavy transport, 19:17.733 --> 19:19.366 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% things that don't work as well on batteries 19:19.366 --> 19:21.166 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% 'cause you're basically hauling batteries. 19:21.166 --> 19:22.833 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% How does that look? 19:22.833 --> 19:25.966 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - Well, it's all diesel right now, is the way it looks. 19:25.966 --> 19:27.533 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% That's very hard to electrify. 19:27.533 --> 19:29.333 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% But you can imagine the infrastructure 19:29.333 --> 19:32.633 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% you have to have on highways to move that much power around. 19:32.633 --> 19:33.800 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% So they're not gonna electrify soon. 19:33.800 --> 19:35.800 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% They're not gonna, I don't think, 19:35.800 --> 19:37.966 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% convert to hydrogen anytime soon. 19:37.966 --> 19:39.866 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% I mean, having the fuel cell is one thing, 19:39.866 --> 19:42.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but getting the hydrogen, making the hydrogen, 19:42.566 --> 19:46.133 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% moving it around is so expensive infrastructure-wise. 19:46.133 --> 19:47.733 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% - And many of these countries 19:47.733 --> 19:49.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% though there's a certain amount of needing to walk 19:49.633 --> 19:51.500 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% before they can run. 19:51.500 --> 19:54.200 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% We didn't talk about just basic 19:54.200 --> 19:55.966 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% electrified rail transportation 19:55.966 --> 19:59.000 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% for goods and freight, et cetera, 19:59.000 --> 20:01.000 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% which I think is something that 20:01.000 --> 20:03.466 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% there's been a massive underinvestment in. 20:03.466 --> 20:04.700 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% If we want to talk about-- 20:04.700 --> 20:06.300 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% there's other parts of the transportation system 20:06.300 --> 20:08.300 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% that are just gonna be harder to decarbonize. 20:08.300 --> 20:09.466 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% And so again, 20:09.466 --> 20:11.566 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% it's all about getting your overall mix sorted out, 20:11.566 --> 20:14.066 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% accepting that there's gonna be some trade offs there. 20:14.066 --> 20:15.300 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - Interesting. 20:15.300 --> 20:16.900 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% Real quickly on heat, 20:16.900 --> 20:21.800 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% how do emerging and developing economies produce heat? 20:21.800 --> 20:23.200 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% And not just for home, 20:23.200 --> 20:25.666 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% but I'm talking more industrial as they start to-- 20:25.666 --> 20:27.000 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% how does that happen? 20:27.000 --> 20:29.500 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - Coal and gas. - That's one for Rob. 20:29.500 --> 20:30.833 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% - Coal and gas. Right. 20:30.833 --> 20:32.133 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% Now it's coal and gas. 20:32.133 --> 20:34.833 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% - Those are tough sectors. 20:34.833 --> 20:36.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - They're tough sectors, but again, 20:36.400 --> 20:38.800 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% I think we sort of get stuck in this mode of thinking 20:38.800 --> 20:40.966 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% that the world is gonna be all windmills and solar panels 20:40.966 --> 20:42.500 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% in the future. 20:42.500 --> 20:44.966 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And there's gonna be thermal generation. 20:44.966 --> 20:45.900 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65% And the question is, 20:45.900 --> 20:46.900 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% what's the fuel? 20:46.900 --> 20:48.333 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% And how does it get cleaned up? 20:48.333 --> 20:50.633 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% Hydrogen is a real option. 20:50.633 --> 20:54.233 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% They're also interesting ideas like co-firing coal and gas 20:54.233 --> 20:56.000 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% with hydrogen carriers. 20:56.000 --> 20:58.000 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Ammonia being one 20:58.000 --> 21:03.233 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% where in addition to feeding natural gas into a turbine, 21:03.233 --> 21:04.933 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% you're feeding ammonia 21:04.933 --> 21:09.066 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and the hydrogen is coming off the nitrogen. 21:09.066 --> 21:10.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% You're capturing the NOx 21:10.433 --> 21:13.066 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% that also unfortunately is produced, 21:13.066 --> 21:15.866 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% so that it doesn't go out atmosphere as well. 21:15.866 --> 21:17.433 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% - But you're not producing the CO2- 21:17.433 --> 21:19.966 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% - You're not producing as much CO2 21:19.966 --> 21:22.900 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% because you're diluting it with a different fuel. 21:22.900 --> 21:25.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% So those sorts of things 21:25.900 --> 21:27.766 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% are being seriously explored as options 21:27.766 --> 21:30.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and could happen relatively quickly. 21:30.033 --> 21:31.366 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% - Right. Right. 21:31.366 --> 21:32.466 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% - You have a chance 21:32.466 --> 21:35.266 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% to have somebody take away a couple things 21:35.266 --> 21:36.433 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% as they're listening to this. 21:36.433 --> 21:39.733 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% What are the most important points to remember 21:39.733 --> 21:44.400 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% about empowering and powering the developing world? 21:44.400 --> 21:46.200 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% What do I need to know? 21:46.200 --> 21:47.966 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5% - I have a very strong conviction 21:47.966 --> 21:50.300 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% that there's a lot of headroom for technology 21:50.300 --> 21:52.466 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and that we have to really continue 21:52.466 --> 21:54.266 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% to act on the pressure to innovate, 21:54.266 --> 21:55.800 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% and that we can get a long, long way 21:55.800 --> 21:57.933 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% in creating economic opportunities 21:57.933 --> 22:01.000 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% to decarbonize and to expand access. 22:01.000 --> 22:03.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% So definitely innovation. 22:03.666 --> 22:06.100 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I think the other thing to recognize 22:06.100 --> 22:11.433 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% is that we have an ethical responsibility 22:11.433 --> 22:14.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to make funding available as well as that technology, 22:14.800 --> 22:18.133 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% to enable governments to develop policy 22:18.133 --> 22:20.766 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% that creates economic activity and development 22:20.766 --> 22:22.633 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% that benefits everyone. 22:22.633 --> 22:24.833 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Third, I think we have to recognize 22:24.833 --> 22:28.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% the heterogeneity among poor countries, 22:28.033 --> 22:30.433 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% and the rates at which they're progressing 22:30.433 --> 22:34.200 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% towards becoming big emitters and climate challenges. 22:34.200 --> 22:36.333 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% Africa isn't there yet. 22:36.333 --> 22:39.533 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And putting too much emphasis on climate 22:39.533 --> 22:42.266 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% as a priority in Africa is a mistake. 22:42.266 --> 22:43.966 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% We need to focus on access. 22:43.966 --> 22:48.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And we really need to eliminate electricity poverty 22:48.033 --> 22:49.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% within the coming decade. 22:49.666 --> 22:52.433 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% It won't happen without a massive effort. 22:52.433 --> 22:55.333 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% It won't happen without a rational approach 22:55.333 --> 22:56.866 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% to resource use. 22:56.866 --> 22:58.800 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% And it won't happen without rational policy. 22:58.800 --> 23:00.700 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% But all those things are very doable. 23:00.700 --> 23:02.333 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% [Scott] Right. Right. Right. 23:02.333 --> 23:06.666 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% - So I think for me, there is no future that is inclusive, 23:06.666 --> 23:07.833 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5% that is jobs rich, 23:07.833 --> 23:10.400 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% that creates opportunities and upward mobility 23:10.400 --> 23:13.600 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% for close to a billion people 23:13.600 --> 23:18.166 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% without a serious global effort on ending energy poverty. 23:18.166 --> 23:20.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And the second thing is, 23:20.000 --> 23:25.866 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% the climate crisis that we face or will face 23:25.866 --> 23:29.400 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% in more acute forms in the future is real. 23:29.400 --> 23:33.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% It also cannot be wished away by action 23:33.033 --> 23:35.666 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% only in rich countries. 23:35.666 --> 23:36.766 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% That the challenge we have 23:36.766 --> 23:40.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% with a massively growing emerging world 23:40.000 --> 23:45.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is that we have to find a way of enabling that growth, 23:45.000 --> 23:47.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as well as enabling a transition 23:47.066 --> 23:49.566 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% and a level of decarbonization. 23:49.566 --> 23:54.400 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% And that is a complex balancing act. 23:54.400 --> 23:56.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And I think the third is, 23:56.100 --> 23:58.366 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% we just need a massive, massive increase 23:58.366 --> 24:01.566 align:left position:37.5% line:83% size:52.5% in a global commitment to action. 24:01.566 --> 24:03.466 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Sort of thing Rob is talking about 24:03.466 --> 24:05.900 align:left position:35% line:83% size:55% from a moral imperative around this 24:05.900 --> 24:08.766 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% that requires rich countries, 24:08.766 --> 24:10.800 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5% developing country governments, 24:10.800 --> 24:12.833 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% investors, philanthropies, 24:12.833 --> 24:14.900 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% development banks, the private sector 24:14.900 --> 24:16.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to actually come together 24:16.100 --> 24:18.833 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% in a much, much more authentic and serious way and say, 24:18.833 --> 24:23.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% "We can actually create a pipeline of action." 24:23.666 --> 24:25.733 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% Because ultimately it's action on the ground 24:25.733 --> 24:27.500 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% that is gonna change things. 24:27.500 --> 24:29.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that's where we have a fairly narrow window. 24:29.400 --> 24:32.333 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75% We can't spend the next seven or eight years figuring out 24:32.333 --> 24:33.633 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% how we are going to do this. 24:33.633 --> 24:35.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We have to start doing this now. 24:35.900 --> 24:37.500 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% - I appreciate your sharing your insights 24:37.500 --> 24:39.333 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75% and being here with us today. 24:39.333 --> 24:41.000 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% - Oh, thank you very much, Scott. 24:41.000 --> 24:41.966 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5% Yeah, pleasure. 24:41.966 --> 24:43.333 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% - Thanks for having us. 24:43.333 --> 24:46.300 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% [Scott] Today, electricity in the developing world 24:46.300 --> 24:49.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% comes mainly from coal and hydro. 24:49.000 --> 24:51.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They're getting more wind and particularly solar, 24:51.666 --> 24:52.733 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% which can provide 24:52.733 --> 24:54.766 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% transformational first electricity 24:54.766 --> 24:57.600 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% but are less good at powering commerce. 24:57.600 --> 24:59.666 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% They can be backed up by batteries, 24:59.666 --> 25:02.900 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% though these are expensive and difficult to deploy. 25:02.900 --> 25:05.666 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% In the end, we'll need to expand the grid. 25:05.666 --> 25:09.133 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% But this is hard when end consumers can't pay, 25:09.133 --> 25:11.400 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and utilities are often bankrupt. 25:11.400 --> 25:14.033 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% Still, there has been progress in electricity 25:14.033 --> 25:16.733 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% while dirty cooking fuels remain entrenched. 25:16.733 --> 25:20.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Indoor smoke kills three million people per year, 25:20.200 --> 25:21.700 align:left position:35% line:89% size:55% mostly women. 25:21.700 --> 25:25.633 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% LPG, biogas and electricity are cleaner options, 25:25.633 --> 25:27.866 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% but they're making slow progress. 25:27.866 --> 25:31.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Liquid fuels for heavy transport and heat for industry 25:31.533 --> 25:33.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% will also be challenging. 25:33.400 --> 25:36.900 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5% Our work in this area shows that reducing energy poverty, 25:36.900 --> 25:39.400 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65% especially increasing electricity access, 25:39.400 --> 25:42.800 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5% while helping poor nations grow on a lower emission trajectory, 25:42.800 --> 25:46.533 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% is key to the health of our entire global society. 25:47.500 --> 25:54.466 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [dramatic music] 25:54.466 --> 26:03.600 align:left position:47.5% line:89% size:42.5% ♪ ♪ 26:03.600 --> 26:11.066 align:left position:47.5% line:89% size:42.5% ♪ ♪ 26:12.366 --> 26:13.766 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% [Announcer] Funding for "Energy Switch" 26:13.766 --> 26:16.933 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% was provided in part by 26:16.933 --> 26:19.366 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% The University of Texas at Austin, 26:19.366 --> 26:21.866 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5% leading research in energy and the environment 26:21.866 --> 26:23.733 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% for a better tomorrow. 26:23.733 --> 26:27.133 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% What starts here changes the world. 26:27.433 --> 26:29.466 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% And by EarthX, 26:29.466 --> 26:31.033 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5% an international nonprofit 26:31.033 --> 26:33.600 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5% working towards a more sustainable future. 26:33.600 --> 26:36.766 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5% See more at earthx.org.