1 00:00:00,533 --> 00:00:02,133 [Scott] Next on "Energy Switch," 2 00:00:02,133 --> 00:00:05,033 we'll talk about how to power and empower 3 00:00:05,033 --> 00:00:07,333 billions of people in developing nations. 4 00:00:07,333 --> 00:00:09,866 - I think we have to recognize the heterogeneity 5 00:00:09,866 --> 00:00:11,600 among poor countries, 6 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:13,766 and the rates at which they're progressing 7 00:00:13,766 --> 00:00:15,866 towards becoming big emitters. 8 00:00:15,866 --> 00:00:18,300 Africa isn't there yet. 9 00:00:18,300 --> 00:00:20,933 And putting too much emphasis on climate 10 00:00:20,933 --> 00:00:23,166 as a priority in Africa is a mistake. 11 00:00:23,166 --> 00:00:25,266 We need to focus on access. 12 00:00:25,266 --> 00:00:26,700 - Look, the growth is going to come 13 00:00:26,700 --> 00:00:28,600 whether organically or by design. 14 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,166 The question is, how can you nudge it in directions 15 00:00:31,166 --> 00:00:33,033 that are gonna be really beneficial for people 16 00:00:33,033 --> 00:00:35,666 as well as for the planet and society as a whole. 17 00:00:35,666 --> 00:00:37,333 We can't spend the next seven or eight years 18 00:00:37,333 --> 00:00:39,800 figuring out how we are going to do this. 19 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:41,633 We have to start doing this now. 20 00:00:42,266 --> 00:00:44,300 [Scott] Coming up on "Energy Switch," 21 00:00:44,300 --> 00:00:46,533 how can we power the developing world? 22 00:00:48,866 --> 00:00:50,033 [Announcer] Funding for "Energy Switch" 23 00:00:50,033 --> 00:00:53,300 was provided in part by 24 00:00:53,300 --> 00:00:55,933 The University of Texas at Austin, 25 00:00:55,933 --> 00:00:58,300 leading research in energy and the environment 26 00:00:58,300 --> 00:01:00,166 for a better tomorrow. 27 00:01:00,166 --> 00:01:02,900 What starts here changes the world. 28 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,000 And by EarthX, 29 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:07,533 an international nonprofit 30 00:01:07,533 --> 00:01:10,233 working towards a more sustainable future. 31 00:01:10,233 --> 00:01:12,833 See more at earthx.org. 32 00:01:14,733 --> 00:01:15,933 - I'm Scott Tinker 33 00:01:15,933 --> 00:01:17,400 and I'm an energy scientist. 34 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:19,600 I work in the field, 35 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:20,766 lead research, 36 00:01:20,766 --> 00:01:22,266 speak around the world, 37 00:01:22,266 --> 00:01:23,566 write articles 38 00:01:23,566 --> 00:01:25,900 and make films about energy. 39 00:01:26,500 --> 00:01:29,066 This show brings together leading experts 40 00:01:29,066 --> 00:01:32,100 on vital topics in energy and climate. 41 00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:34,000 They may have different perspectives, 42 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,033 but my goal is to learn and illuminate 43 00:01:37,033 --> 00:01:40,500 and bring diverging views together towards solutions. 44 00:01:41,166 --> 00:01:43,366 Welcome to the "Energy Switch." 45 00:01:45,533 --> 00:01:48,766 Today, three quarters of the world's population, 46 00:01:48,766 --> 00:01:50,600 that's six billion people, 47 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,200 don't have access to reliable, affordable energy. 48 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,433 One billion don't have any modern energy at all, 49 00:01:57,433 --> 00:02:02,066 and get all their energy from burning wood, straw or dung. 50 00:02:02,066 --> 00:02:04,233 Lack of energy makes their lives difficult, 51 00:02:04,233 --> 00:02:06,333 unhealthy and short. 52 00:02:06,333 --> 00:02:09,233 We'll talk about how they could get clean cooking fuels, 53 00:02:09,233 --> 00:02:12,166 electricity, and other basic energy services 54 00:02:12,166 --> 00:02:14,333 with my expert guests, 55 00:02:14,333 --> 00:02:16,300 Ashvin Dayal. 56 00:02:16,300 --> 00:02:19,266 He's the senior vice president for power and climate, 57 00:02:19,266 --> 00:02:22,166 and the Global Energy Alliance for people in the planet 58 00:02:22,166 --> 00:02:24,433 at the Rockefeller Foundation. 59 00:02:24,433 --> 00:02:27,566 He's joined by Dr. Rob Stoner. 60 00:02:27,566 --> 00:02:30,266 He's the deputy director for science and technology 61 00:02:30,266 --> 00:02:32,433 at the MIT Energy initiative. 62 00:02:32,433 --> 00:02:36,233 Before that, as CEO of the Clinton Development Initiative, 63 00:02:36,233 --> 00:02:38,133 he lived in Africa and India 64 00:02:38,133 --> 00:02:40,233 working to increase energy access. 65 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,233 On this episode of "Energy Switch," 66 00:02:43,233 --> 00:02:45,500 How Do We Power the Developing World? 67 00:02:46,633 --> 00:02:50,166 Let's talk about the state of energy as it exists today 68 00:02:50,166 --> 00:02:53,566 and some of the developing and emerging areas, 69 00:02:53,566 --> 00:02:55,933 India, Africa, Latin America. 70 00:02:55,933 --> 00:03:00,166 What are the big areas that energy is needed 71 00:03:00,166 --> 00:03:02,966 in these emerging and developing economies? 72 00:03:02,966 --> 00:03:04,466 - Well, the first thing you have to do 73 00:03:04,466 --> 00:03:07,500 is provide for people's actual needs in their daily lives. 74 00:03:07,500 --> 00:03:10,000 We're talking about electricity for lighting 75 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:11,966 and cell phone charging and so on. 76 00:03:11,966 --> 00:03:14,666 But the big energy consumer is cooking. 77 00:03:14,666 --> 00:03:18,500 And yet the vast majority of energy in Africa, 78 00:03:18,500 --> 00:03:21,566 certainly in much of India, is biomass. 79 00:03:21,566 --> 00:03:23,866 People burning sticks and dung. 80 00:03:23,866 --> 00:03:25,500 And then transportation. 81 00:03:25,500 --> 00:03:28,366 And that the fuel for those cars in many cases 82 00:03:28,366 --> 00:03:30,133 is a big drag on the economy, 83 00:03:30,133 --> 00:03:31,900 because many of them don't-- 84 00:03:31,900 --> 00:03:33,833 although they may produce oil locally, 85 00:03:33,833 --> 00:03:35,166 they don't refine it locally. 86 00:03:35,166 --> 00:03:37,466 And so this becomes a balance of trade issue. 87 00:03:37,466 --> 00:03:38,833 - Sure. - And is very significant. 88 00:03:38,833 --> 00:03:41,033 So they need another path for transportation. 89 00:03:41,033 --> 00:03:42,300 - Yeah. Yeah. 90 00:03:42,300 --> 00:03:44,733 So electricity, cooking, transportation. 91 00:03:44,733 --> 00:03:46,166 - I mean, it's hard to generalize 92 00:03:46,166 --> 00:03:47,533 about developing and emerging economies, 93 00:03:47,533 --> 00:03:49,200 but the entire residential sector 94 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:50,566 is gonna be a big growth area 95 00:03:50,566 --> 00:03:52,000 because people inside their homes 96 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:53,533 are trying to consume more. 97 00:03:53,533 --> 00:03:55,966 Just take cooling as an example of that. 98 00:03:55,966 --> 00:03:58,300 You've then got all of the industrial economy 99 00:03:58,300 --> 00:04:00,700 and manufacturing that is growing, again, 100 00:04:00,700 --> 00:04:02,200 differently in different economies, 101 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,433 but it's a huge energy needs. 102 00:04:04,433 --> 00:04:06,633 Let's not forget the agricultural sector 103 00:04:06,633 --> 00:04:08,600 as a massive consumer of energy. 104 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:10,200 And these are economies often 105 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,600 that are still 70, 80% of their GDP 106 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,133 is coming out of agriculture. 107 00:04:14,133 --> 00:04:15,933 And then of course you've got transportation 108 00:04:15,933 --> 00:04:18,366 at a individual or household level, 109 00:04:18,366 --> 00:04:20,400 but you've got public transport, mass transit. 110 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,033 There's massive amounts of infrastructure investment 111 00:04:23,033 --> 00:04:24,733 that these economies are wanting to make 112 00:04:24,733 --> 00:04:27,100 over the next 10, 15, 20 years. 113 00:04:27,100 --> 00:04:29,533 So you add all of that together and, yeah, demand, 114 00:04:29,533 --> 00:04:30,800 it is a huge- 115 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:32,300 - Everything we take for granted. 116 00:04:32,300 --> 00:04:33,133 - Exactly. 117 00:04:33,133 --> 00:04:34,533 - Let's dive into these topics. 118 00:04:34,533 --> 00:04:36,966 I mean, each one of them has issues and things 119 00:04:36,966 --> 00:04:38,933 but let's talk about electricity. 120 00:04:38,933 --> 00:04:41,400 For those of us who came through last century, 121 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,600 UK, Germany, us, China's doing that, 122 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:46,066 India, but other people too. 123 00:04:46,066 --> 00:04:47,200 A lot of Southeast Asia, 124 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,033 that's been coal. 125 00:04:49,033 --> 00:04:50,233 How do we do it? 126 00:04:50,233 --> 00:04:51,933 - But the power the power system is more than generation. 127 00:04:51,933 --> 00:04:53,100 Generation's important. 128 00:04:53,100 --> 00:04:54,300 - Correct. 129 00:04:54,300 --> 00:04:56,933 - But you've gotta move the power you generate to cities 130 00:04:56,933 --> 00:04:58,133 where the loads are 131 00:04:58,133 --> 00:04:59,533 and you've gotta distribute it within the city. 132 00:04:59,533 --> 00:05:00,600 So there's this sort of 133 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,300 generation-transmission- distribution sequence, 134 00:05:03,300 --> 00:05:05,833 and the whole thing has to work or nothing happens. 135 00:05:05,833 --> 00:05:08,966 It's a distribution where the power system over there 136 00:05:08,966 --> 00:05:11,300 meets the guys who have to pay, 137 00:05:11,300 --> 00:05:12,800 and they're sensitive to price. 138 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:14,300 The power companies are usually asked 139 00:05:14,300 --> 00:05:15,833 to provide power to more of them 140 00:05:15,833 --> 00:05:18,200 than they can reasonably provide power to. 141 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:19,833 And that means that they're short on revenues 142 00:05:19,833 --> 00:05:23,766 and they can't maintain the lines and reliability suffers. 143 00:05:23,766 --> 00:05:26,200 And then you get angry customers at the end of the line. 144 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:27,866 So they get into a spiral. 145 00:05:27,866 --> 00:05:31,600 And that's a big problem in all of the electricity systems. 146 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:33,766 I would say it's common to electricity 147 00:05:33,766 --> 00:05:35,600 throughout the world. 148 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,766 - And it's a political subject, right? 149 00:05:37,766 --> 00:05:40,966 In poor countries where people can't afford a lot of power, 150 00:05:40,966 --> 00:05:44,300 governments are reluctant to price electricity 151 00:05:44,300 --> 00:05:46,266 in a way that is both affordable on the one hand, 152 00:05:46,266 --> 00:05:49,533 but also allows the utility to recoup and operate 153 00:05:49,533 --> 00:05:52,766 on a profitable or at least on a sustainable basis. 154 00:05:52,766 --> 00:05:55,000 So Rob's exactly right. 155 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,966 The generation challenge in several of these economies 156 00:05:57,966 --> 00:05:59,866 has been solved because governments are 157 00:05:59,866 --> 00:06:01,900 providing guarantees and PPAs, et cetera, 158 00:06:01,900 --> 00:06:04,333 and underwriting the off-taker. 159 00:06:04,333 --> 00:06:06,200 But this question of the last mile 160 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,033 utility distribution question 161 00:06:08,033 --> 00:06:11,100 is politically not being challenged. 162 00:06:11,100 --> 00:06:12,933 In sub-Saharan Africa, 163 00:06:12,933 --> 00:06:16,066 there are only two profitable utilities. 164 00:06:16,066 --> 00:06:18,566 So this tells you the story. 165 00:06:18,566 --> 00:06:20,700 In India, in many distribution companies, 166 00:06:20,700 --> 00:06:22,533 every unit of electricity they sell, 167 00:06:22,533 --> 00:06:25,000 they're actually losing money on it. 168 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,033 So it's actually a disincentive to add a customer 169 00:06:28,033 --> 00:06:30,166 who's a low consuming customer. 170 00:06:30,166 --> 00:06:31,200 - Right. Right. 171 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,700 - So we need a massive wave of reform 172 00:06:33,700 --> 00:06:35,333 in the distribution sector 173 00:06:35,333 --> 00:06:38,066 in order to then have the positive benefits upstream 174 00:06:38,066 --> 00:06:39,833 into transmission and generation. 175 00:06:39,833 --> 00:06:41,000 Until you have that, 176 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,200 we won't be able to change the energy mix. 177 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:44,766 - We've talked about the challenges on the 178 00:06:44,766 --> 00:06:48,033 distribution end, the last mile and the economics of that 179 00:06:48,033 --> 00:06:51,866 and the realities that come upstream, making it. 180 00:06:51,866 --> 00:06:54,033 Africa is building a lot of dams, hydro, 181 00:06:54,033 --> 00:06:56,100 and in Latin America and South America, 182 00:06:56,100 --> 00:06:57,833 does India have optionality there? 183 00:06:57,833 --> 00:06:59,100 - Yeah. 184 00:06:59,100 --> 00:07:02,100 And India has had a significant number of large hydro dams. 185 00:07:02,100 --> 00:07:04,600 Look, they don't come without complications. 186 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,000 There's massive social dislocation issues around that. 187 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,266 - Yeah, sure. 188 00:07:09,266 --> 00:07:11,600 - There's a lot of potential with smaller hydro actually. 189 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:12,733 Microhydro, 190 00:07:12,733 --> 00:07:14,766 there's some new turbine technology that's coming through 191 00:07:14,766 --> 00:07:16,333 that could be very exciting and actually quite applicable 192 00:07:16,333 --> 00:07:17,833 in some of the economies we are talking about. 193 00:07:17,833 --> 00:07:20,233 And even places like the Democratic Republic of Congo, 194 00:07:20,233 --> 00:07:21,800 you're seeing run of the river, 195 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:23,833 I mean, smaller scale hydro systems 196 00:07:23,833 --> 00:07:25,333 that could be very effective. 197 00:07:25,333 --> 00:07:27,566 - Partnering with solar and wind to provide the reliability. 198 00:07:27,566 --> 00:07:28,666 - Exactly. 199 00:07:28,666 --> 00:07:30,933 The challenge with large hydro now 200 00:07:30,933 --> 00:07:33,233 comes back to the question of climate change. 201 00:07:33,233 --> 00:07:39,466 And actually we're seeing now the water levels in dams, 202 00:07:39,466 --> 00:07:40,766 et cetera, being affected. 203 00:07:40,766 --> 00:07:43,800 So there is that risk that has to be factored in. 204 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,933 So I think looking at smaller hydro 205 00:07:45,933 --> 00:07:48,466 is something that we should actually do a lot more of. 206 00:07:48,466 --> 00:07:52,933 - It's a huge undeveloped resource in Africa especially. 207 00:07:52,933 --> 00:07:56,466 And Africa, sub-Saharan Africa outside South Africa 208 00:07:56,466 --> 00:07:58,933 is still majority hydro. 209 00:07:58,933 --> 00:07:59,933 They've got other stuff. 210 00:07:59,933 --> 00:08:01,366 They got effectively no coal. 211 00:08:01,366 --> 00:08:04,900 So the forward trajectory, if the past is a guide, 212 00:08:04,900 --> 00:08:08,033 is that Africa will not be coal dependent 213 00:08:08,033 --> 00:08:10,700 or major coal consumer. 214 00:08:10,700 --> 00:08:12,533 - But we need to talk about diesel as well though, 215 00:08:12,533 --> 00:08:14,533 because my big worry is that the alternative 216 00:08:14,533 --> 00:08:16,833 to inefficient electrification systems 217 00:08:16,833 --> 00:08:20,200 is that the world is relying heavily on diesel, 218 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,866 highly inefficient small scale systems. 219 00:08:22,866 --> 00:08:26,200 Take Nigeria, if I have my numbers correct, 220 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,700 there is something like about 45 to 50 gigawatts of diesel 221 00:08:30,700 --> 00:08:31,900 operating in that country 222 00:08:31,900 --> 00:08:35,000 against a grid that is only evacuating about six. 223 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,466 I mean, that is probably one of the least efficient 224 00:08:37,466 --> 00:08:40,366 ways of powering your economy that I can possibly- 225 00:08:40,366 --> 00:08:43,733 - Well, the Middle East burns a lot of oil and natural gas 226 00:08:43,733 --> 00:08:45,866 to do a variety of things from power to desal 227 00:08:45,866 --> 00:08:47,000 and the whole-- 228 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,233 What about geothermal? 229 00:08:48,233 --> 00:08:49,833 Africa has geothermal potential. 230 00:08:49,833 --> 00:08:51,466 We look in- - Kenya has- 231 00:08:51,466 --> 00:08:55,733 - Kenya has continued to develop its assets around Olkaria 232 00:08:55,733 --> 00:08:59,366 and they're important, but rather limited geographically. 233 00:08:59,366 --> 00:09:04,633 Ethiopia has, for many years, developed geothermal resources 234 00:09:04,633 --> 00:09:06,433 and run into reliability problems over time 235 00:09:06,433 --> 00:09:08,066 because of poor maintenance. 236 00:09:08,066 --> 00:09:10,033 Those things can clearly be fixed. 237 00:09:10,033 --> 00:09:13,466 I think geothermal's great, but I don't think it's a panacea. 238 00:09:13,466 --> 00:09:15,133 - If you have it. - If you have it. Exactly. 239 00:09:15,133 --> 00:09:16,100 - Yeah, it's a piece. 240 00:09:16,100 --> 00:09:17,800 - It's a really risky thing to develop 241 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:19,966 because you've got to do a lot of drilling. 242 00:09:19,966 --> 00:09:21,466 And drilling is expensive. 243 00:09:21,466 --> 00:09:25,066 And your odds of coming up with a resource that's adequate 244 00:09:25,066 --> 00:09:27,200 are not high. 245 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:28,233 - Firm power, 246 00:09:28,233 --> 00:09:32,533 I mean, base load or dispatchable firm power, 247 00:09:32,533 --> 00:09:34,600 coal, natural gas, 248 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,233 nuclear, hydro, geothermal. 249 00:09:37,233 --> 00:09:38,866 You need some of that. 250 00:09:38,866 --> 00:09:39,900 We can't do it all. 251 00:09:39,900 --> 00:09:42,700 I mean, let's talk about solar and wind. 252 00:09:42,700 --> 00:09:45,966 First, electricity is a panel on the roof usually, right? 253 00:09:45,966 --> 00:09:47,400 What's the benefit of that? 254 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,233 - It's transformational, right? 255 00:09:49,233 --> 00:09:50,433 You think about it. 256 00:09:50,433 --> 00:09:55,200 You are in a market place in a small rural setting, 257 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,466 it's six o'clock, it's dark. 258 00:09:57,466 --> 00:10:00,433 If you don't have good quality lighting, 259 00:10:00,433 --> 00:10:02,866 the economy starts to sort of go to sleep for the day. 260 00:10:02,866 --> 00:10:04,133 You have it, it stays open 261 00:10:04,133 --> 00:10:06,233 another two or three hours more of commerce 262 00:10:06,233 --> 00:10:08,233 taking place in that environment. 263 00:10:08,233 --> 00:10:09,900 If I'm a carpenter, 264 00:10:09,900 --> 00:10:12,433 I'm using manual tools. 265 00:10:12,433 --> 00:10:15,066 All of a sudden I'm able to bring in a mechanized tool 266 00:10:15,066 --> 00:10:16,100 into my workshop. 267 00:10:16,100 --> 00:10:17,633 I'm hiring two or three other people. 268 00:10:17,633 --> 00:10:19,733 And these are things that I've seen personally 269 00:10:19,733 --> 00:10:22,533 over the last 10, 15 years of working on these distributed 270 00:10:22,533 --> 00:10:25,066 renewable energy systems. 271 00:10:25,066 --> 00:10:26,933 Not because they're renewable, 272 00:10:26,933 --> 00:10:30,766 but because they work for those people in those economies, 273 00:10:30,766 --> 00:10:33,233 in those places where the grid is actually absent 274 00:10:33,233 --> 00:10:34,766 or completely unreliable. 275 00:10:34,766 --> 00:10:39,100 - And because it's local and it's fit for purpose, it lasts. 276 00:10:39,100 --> 00:10:40,533 - It lasts and it will grow. 277 00:10:40,533 --> 00:10:42,866 And people's aspirations change. 278 00:10:42,866 --> 00:10:44,100 And so-- 279 00:10:44,100 --> 00:10:46,866 We are always talking about it as planners as sort of like, 280 00:10:46,866 --> 00:10:48,600 people can't afford or people-- 281 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:50,900 there isn't the economy and you are absolutely right. 282 00:10:50,900 --> 00:10:53,200 But you also have to light the spark somewhere. 283 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:54,433 And you have to sort of create 284 00:10:54,433 --> 00:10:56,366 a bit of that bottom-up opportunity. 285 00:10:56,366 --> 00:10:59,700 - So let's just talk briefly about batteries. 286 00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:01,133 They're getting better, the technology, 287 00:11:01,133 --> 00:11:02,466 they're getting more affordable. 288 00:11:02,466 --> 00:11:05,833 - The issue that I think we must talk about with storage 289 00:11:05,833 --> 00:11:09,633 is also the need for these sort of system integrators 290 00:11:09,633 --> 00:11:11,166 in the markets that we are talking about, 291 00:11:11,166 --> 00:11:13,000 that can actually deploy these technologies. 292 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,700 The sort of applied innovation side of all of this 293 00:11:15,700 --> 00:11:17,300 is really, really important. 294 00:11:17,300 --> 00:11:18,466 It's one thing to say, 295 00:11:18,466 --> 00:11:20,366 "The global price of lithium ion is this." 296 00:11:20,366 --> 00:11:21,533 It's another to say, 297 00:11:21,533 --> 00:11:24,633 "Well, what does it cost to land it in rural Nigeria?" 298 00:11:24,633 --> 00:11:27,800 And that's where we need more international support 299 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,000 and more cooperation around things like pooled procurement, 300 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:32,966 for example, how do you get these small systems 301 00:11:32,966 --> 00:11:34,866 to actually come together? 302 00:11:34,866 --> 00:11:38,133 Because any one developer trying to put in a 200 kilowatt 303 00:11:38,133 --> 00:11:40,166 system in one village, 304 00:11:40,166 --> 00:11:42,433 I mean, for them the price is three or four x 305 00:11:42,433 --> 00:11:44,133 what we are seeing in global markets. 306 00:11:44,133 --> 00:11:47,966 We need governments to not run microgrids 307 00:11:47,966 --> 00:11:50,366 and off-grid solutions that use storage, 308 00:11:50,366 --> 00:11:52,200 but to at least regulate and support it 309 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,133 in a way that you need these systems to be integrated. 310 00:11:55,133 --> 00:11:57,166 Not sort of fly-by-night operators building 311 00:11:57,166 --> 00:11:58,100 a microgrid here 312 00:11:58,100 --> 00:11:59,666 and then disappearing five years later. 313 00:11:59,666 --> 00:12:00,866 We don't want that. 314 00:12:00,866 --> 00:12:01,833 Nobody wants that. 315 00:12:01,833 --> 00:12:04,533 But it needs to be a regulated sector. 316 00:12:04,533 --> 00:12:07,433 - So we've talked a lot about electricity, 317 00:12:07,433 --> 00:12:09,000 all these systems. 318 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,400 How do we do all that 319 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,566 and then still being mindful of environmental impacts? 320 00:12:13,566 --> 00:12:16,766 There's tension sometimes between lower emissions things 321 00:12:16,766 --> 00:12:19,400 that consume a lot of land, 322 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,833 or that challenge water systems. 323 00:12:21,833 --> 00:12:24,433 - Including by the way, solar and wind. 324 00:12:24,433 --> 00:12:25,866 They're very visible. 325 00:12:25,866 --> 00:12:28,700 They're very visible now in some places 326 00:12:28,700 --> 00:12:32,100 where we're still at a very low level of penetration. 327 00:12:32,100 --> 00:12:33,766 I find it a little bit worrisome 328 00:12:33,766 --> 00:12:35,700 to think that we're seriously talking 329 00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:38,000 about having an all solar-wind-battery 330 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:39,366 kind of electrical system. 331 00:12:39,366 --> 00:12:40,933 I mean, I'm afraid 332 00:12:40,933 --> 00:12:42,766 that by the time you get anywhere close to that, 333 00:12:42,766 --> 00:12:46,366 the public backlash makes nuclear look attractive. 334 00:12:46,366 --> 00:12:47,566 - The environmental backlash. 335 00:12:47,566 --> 00:12:50,833 - Yes, I mean, that's a lot of land you're consuming. 336 00:12:50,833 --> 00:12:53,000 And no land is wasted land. 337 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,600 So we have to keep on innovating. 338 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,400 And I look at these as all stages along the path 339 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,433 toward better and lower emitting 340 00:13:02,433 --> 00:13:05,666 and more energy dense technologies over time. 341 00:13:05,666 --> 00:13:08,000 - These are massive challenges. 342 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:09,433 We are struggling to figure this out 343 00:13:09,433 --> 00:13:11,900 in the US and in Europe. 344 00:13:11,900 --> 00:13:15,266 What do you expect Nigeria to do? 345 00:13:15,266 --> 00:13:18,633 Think about just being an energy regulator in Africa 346 00:13:18,633 --> 00:13:22,766 and you are basically working on a 20th century model. 347 00:13:22,766 --> 00:13:25,000 And now we are talking about getting to net zero. 348 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:26,766 All over countries right now they're being asked like, 349 00:13:26,766 --> 00:13:27,900 "Tell us your plan. 350 00:13:27,900 --> 00:13:29,733 How you gonna do it?" 351 00:13:29,733 --> 00:13:31,300 They don't know. 352 00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:34,133 So there's just an enormous amount of support needed, 353 00:13:34,133 --> 00:13:38,100 because they need to know that the energy transition concept 354 00:13:38,100 --> 00:13:40,433 is one that is also about economic development. 355 00:13:40,433 --> 00:13:42,966 And about meeting those aspirations 356 00:13:42,966 --> 00:13:45,500 around affordability, reliability, all of that. 357 00:13:45,500 --> 00:13:48,100 If it's going to be sort of a dogmatic push 358 00:13:48,100 --> 00:13:52,400 towards only optimizing for decarbonization, 359 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,066 it's not gonna work for those societies. 360 00:13:55,066 --> 00:13:58,300 - Yeah, yeah, it's not simple, 361 00:13:58,300 --> 00:13:59,733 but it's solvable. 362 00:13:59,733 --> 00:14:02,066 But it's only solvable if we recognize it's not simple. 363 00:14:02,066 --> 00:14:04,066 - Well, we all have to be in the game, I think. 364 00:14:04,066 --> 00:14:07,066 We have a lot to contribute as advanced economies 365 00:14:07,066 --> 00:14:09,066 to that discussion and activity, 366 00:14:09,066 --> 00:14:11,500 but really can't be top-down. 367 00:14:11,500 --> 00:14:12,633 [Scott] It's a tough problem. 368 00:14:12,633 --> 00:14:13,866 [Rob] It's very hard, yeah. 369 00:14:13,866 --> 00:14:15,466 - Let's talk about cooking. 370 00:14:15,466 --> 00:14:17,833 It's a giant challenge. 371 00:14:17,833 --> 00:14:20,233 Kills two to three million people a year 372 00:14:20,233 --> 00:14:22,033 breathing indoor smoke. 373 00:14:22,033 --> 00:14:23,633 How many people cook this way? 374 00:14:23,633 --> 00:14:25,033 Why? 375 00:14:25,033 --> 00:14:26,233 And let's start to think about 376 00:14:26,233 --> 00:14:28,166 and talk about what are the options for them? 377 00:14:28,166 --> 00:14:29,666 - It's at hand, right? 378 00:14:29,666 --> 00:14:32,900 If you can go out and you can cut down a tree 379 00:14:32,900 --> 00:14:36,533 or find a branch or collect dung as often happens, 380 00:14:36,533 --> 00:14:38,466 and burn it. 381 00:14:38,466 --> 00:14:42,133 And that is a quick and very inexpensive way. 382 00:14:42,133 --> 00:14:45,900 Usually free to provide energy for cooking in rural areas. 383 00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:48,000 The same sort of biomass source of wood 384 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:49,200 is often used in cities as well, 385 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:50,800 but usually in the form of charcoal. 386 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:55,533 In fact, its cheapness and ubiquity mean that it persists. 387 00:14:55,533 --> 00:14:59,233 So if you look at electricity access over the last 20 years, 388 00:14:59,233 --> 00:15:01,700 we've made tremendous progress globally. 389 00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:03,800 Access to modern cooking fuels 390 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,066 has basically just sat there for 20 years, 391 00:15:06,066 --> 00:15:07,566 hasn't gone anywhere. 392 00:15:07,566 --> 00:15:10,700 And there has been a lot of initiative by governments 393 00:15:10,700 --> 00:15:13,300 to try to prevent that from happening 394 00:15:13,300 --> 00:15:16,733 by moving toward liquified petroleum gas, LPG. 395 00:15:16,733 --> 00:15:17,700 - The other thing is 396 00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:19,700 that the collection burden for all of this 397 00:15:19,700 --> 00:15:21,266 and the time burden for all this, 398 00:15:21,266 --> 00:15:24,366 disproportionately falls on on women. 399 00:15:24,366 --> 00:15:27,033 So there's a huge social inequity issue 400 00:15:27,033 --> 00:15:29,766 around dirty forms of cooking. 401 00:15:29,766 --> 00:15:32,700 I think the LPG option 402 00:15:32,700 --> 00:15:35,366 that was very widely promoted in India 403 00:15:35,366 --> 00:15:37,900 has been a huge improvement. 404 00:15:37,900 --> 00:15:39,900 That there are affordability challenges there, 405 00:15:39,900 --> 00:15:44,366 because replacing those gas cylinders, as they'll called, 406 00:15:44,366 --> 00:15:45,400 is expensive. 407 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,033 And they've been reducing subsidies on that 408 00:15:47,033 --> 00:15:48,566 because governments can't afford 409 00:15:48,566 --> 00:15:50,766 to keep bankrolling these things. 410 00:15:50,766 --> 00:15:53,566 So there is that significant challenge. 411 00:15:53,566 --> 00:15:54,733 I think we have to do-- 412 00:15:54,733 --> 00:15:57,100 There's a lot more we can do on electric cooking. 413 00:15:57,100 --> 00:15:58,933 The technologies are so much improved now 414 00:15:58,933 --> 00:16:00,500 compared to the first generations that 415 00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:01,466 were being tried. 416 00:16:01,466 --> 00:16:03,100 I feel like now we are getting to a point 417 00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:05,833 where the technology really is ready to be scaled up. 418 00:16:05,833 --> 00:16:07,333 There's gonna be some other things needed. 419 00:16:07,333 --> 00:16:09,966 These systems, even $30, $40, $50 systems, 420 00:16:09,966 --> 00:16:12,100 that's a lot of money for a poor family. 421 00:16:12,100 --> 00:16:13,966 So how do we make the financing? 422 00:16:13,966 --> 00:16:16,600 We have to turn it into a consumer product 423 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,766 in order to actually make the product affordable 424 00:16:19,766 --> 00:16:22,033 for people to be able to make it an easy purchase, 425 00:16:22,033 --> 00:16:23,366 not something that they have to actually 426 00:16:23,366 --> 00:16:25,300 really think deeply about. 427 00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:28,633 It also could become a real win-win synergy 428 00:16:28,633 --> 00:16:31,266 with trying to create the load that's needed 429 00:16:31,266 --> 00:16:35,033 to make electricity systems more viable. 430 00:16:35,033 --> 00:16:37,800 - Because it just stabilizes the grid- 431 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:38,866 - It creates demand. 432 00:16:38,866 --> 00:16:40,433 It creates predictable demand. 433 00:16:40,433 --> 00:16:42,300 So it allows a developer, 434 00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:44,133 whether it's an off grid, mini-grid developer 435 00:16:44,133 --> 00:16:45,966 or a utility 436 00:16:45,966 --> 00:16:49,766 to have that much more assured load on their system, 437 00:16:49,766 --> 00:16:52,933 which would help with the economics of the grid itself. 438 00:16:52,933 --> 00:16:56,166 - Biogas, how's that looking? 439 00:16:56,166 --> 00:16:57,833 It seems like a pretty reasonable solution 440 00:16:57,833 --> 00:17:00,166 particularly in rural areas. 441 00:17:00,166 --> 00:17:02,900 - Biomass, you make it by taking biomass 442 00:17:02,900 --> 00:17:04,700 and letting it decompose, 443 00:17:04,700 --> 00:17:07,166 but, yeah, it's readily available everywhere, 444 00:17:07,166 --> 00:17:08,533 everywhere there's waste. 445 00:17:08,533 --> 00:17:11,433 It gives you a locally produced source of gas 446 00:17:11,433 --> 00:17:15,000 that may require capital subsidy from the government 447 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,700 to enable people to build a system that will do this 448 00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:18,766 and distribute the energy. 449 00:17:18,766 --> 00:17:19,966 - Initial upfront investment. 450 00:17:19,966 --> 00:17:21,666 - But from then on, it doesn't cost anything. 451 00:17:21,666 --> 00:17:23,433 So very attractive. 452 00:17:23,433 --> 00:17:25,166 I think Ashvin you'll know better, 453 00:17:25,166 --> 00:17:26,666 but this has been practiced in India 454 00:17:26,666 --> 00:17:28,600 for many, many years successfully. 455 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:29,800 - Yeah, yeah. No, it has. 456 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,066 I think we are getting to a point where the technologies 457 00:17:32,066 --> 00:17:33,566 are getting much more efficient, 458 00:17:33,566 --> 00:17:36,066 and you're also seeing some sort of commercial players 459 00:17:36,066 --> 00:17:40,100 come into this space in terms of biogas, bio-CNG, et cetera. 460 00:17:41,233 --> 00:17:42,700 And it has deal benefits. 461 00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:44,833 If you think about it back to the conversation 462 00:17:44,833 --> 00:17:47,166 we were having about distributed renewable electrification 463 00:17:47,166 --> 00:17:49,900 and solar and the role of storage. 464 00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:51,600 If you're running a mini-grid, 465 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,033 you have some options for your base load 466 00:17:55,033 --> 00:17:56,400 and your evening load, et cetera. 467 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,400 And that's storage or diesel, 468 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,833 and now increasingly, biogas. 469 00:18:01,833 --> 00:18:03,966 I think there's a huge amount of potential there. 470 00:18:03,966 --> 00:18:06,233 And it feels like we're on the cusp 471 00:18:06,233 --> 00:18:10,066 of something that could actually really be quite powerful. 472 00:18:10,066 --> 00:18:10,933 - New topic. 473 00:18:10,933 --> 00:18:12,233 Transportation. 474 00:18:12,233 --> 00:18:14,233 How are these emerging and developing economies 475 00:18:14,233 --> 00:18:15,900 gonna move themselves around? 476 00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:17,600 What are some of the options there? 477 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:19,066 - Look, the growth is going to come 478 00:18:19,066 --> 00:18:21,233 whether organically or by design. 479 00:18:21,233 --> 00:18:22,333 The question is, 480 00:18:22,333 --> 00:18:24,066 how can you nudge it in directions 481 00:18:24,066 --> 00:18:25,933 that are gonna be really beneficial for people 482 00:18:25,933 --> 00:18:28,466 as well as for the planet and society as a whole? 483 00:18:28,466 --> 00:18:32,000 I think the whole EV conversation is one 484 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:33,933 that is taking off. 485 00:18:33,933 --> 00:18:36,166 I think it has some challenges 486 00:18:36,166 --> 00:18:37,933 because there's all of the challenges 487 00:18:37,933 --> 00:18:41,633 with having an electric vehicle ecosystem that goes with it. 488 00:18:41,633 --> 00:18:43,266 But it's quite interesting to see what's happening 489 00:18:43,266 --> 00:18:45,066 with sort of bottom-up. 490 00:18:45,066 --> 00:18:46,400 Again, bottom-up innovation 491 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,066 on things like two-wheeler and three-wheeler 492 00:18:48,066 --> 00:18:49,633 electric vehicle transport, 493 00:18:49,633 --> 00:18:53,666 startups in countries like Kenya and Uganda, et cetera, 494 00:18:53,666 --> 00:18:57,066 that are renting vehicle services, 495 00:18:57,066 --> 00:18:59,500 commercial transport services that are all electrified. 496 00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:04,033 So it's exciting what's happening. 497 00:19:04,033 --> 00:19:07,733 My concern though is that there may be some inefficiencies 498 00:19:07,733 --> 00:19:09,200 that are kind of coming into this 499 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:10,900 because there isn't enough thinking 500 00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:13,700 about sort of integrated transport and mobility. 501 00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:17,733 - Let's think about increasingly heavy transport, 502 00:19:17,733 --> 00:19:19,366 things that don't work as well on batteries 503 00:19:19,366 --> 00:19:21,166 'cause you're basically hauling batteries. 504 00:19:21,166 --> 00:19:22,833 How does that look? 505 00:19:22,833 --> 00:19:25,966 - Well, it's all diesel right now, is the way it looks. 506 00:19:25,966 --> 00:19:27,533 That's very hard to electrify. 507 00:19:27,533 --> 00:19:29,333 But you can imagine the infrastructure 508 00:19:29,333 --> 00:19:32,633 you have to have on highways to move that much power around. 509 00:19:32,633 --> 00:19:33,800 So they're not gonna electrify soon. 510 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,800 They're not gonna, I don't think, 511 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,966 convert to hydrogen anytime soon. 512 00:19:37,966 --> 00:19:39,866 I mean, having the fuel cell is one thing, 513 00:19:39,866 --> 00:19:42,566 but getting the hydrogen, making the hydrogen, 514 00:19:42,566 --> 00:19:46,133 moving it around is so expensive infrastructure-wise. 515 00:19:46,133 --> 00:19:47,733 - And many of these countries 516 00:19:47,733 --> 00:19:49,633 though there's a certain amount of needing to walk 517 00:19:49,633 --> 00:19:51,500 before they can run. 518 00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:54,200 We didn't talk about just basic 519 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:55,966 electrified rail transportation 520 00:19:55,966 --> 00:19:59,000 for goods and freight, et cetera, 521 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,000 which I think is something that 522 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,466 there's been a massive underinvestment in. 523 00:20:03,466 --> 00:20:04,700 If we want to talk about-- 524 00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:06,300 there's other parts of the transportation system 525 00:20:06,300 --> 00:20:08,300 that are just gonna be harder to decarbonize. 526 00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:09,466 And so again, 527 00:20:09,466 --> 00:20:11,566 it's all about getting your overall mix sorted out, 528 00:20:11,566 --> 00:20:14,066 accepting that there's gonna be some trade offs there. 529 00:20:14,066 --> 00:20:15,300 - Interesting. 530 00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:16,900 Real quickly on heat, 531 00:20:16,900 --> 00:20:21,800 how do emerging and developing economies produce heat? 532 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:23,200 And not just for home, 533 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,666 but I'm talking more industrial as they start to-- 534 00:20:25,666 --> 00:20:27,000 how does that happen? 535 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,500 - Coal and gas. - That's one for Rob. 536 00:20:29,500 --> 00:20:30,833 - Coal and gas. Right. 537 00:20:30,833 --> 00:20:32,133 Now it's coal and gas. 538 00:20:32,133 --> 00:20:34,833 - Those are tough sectors. 539 00:20:34,833 --> 00:20:36,400 - They're tough sectors, but again, 540 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,800 I think we sort of get stuck in this mode of thinking 541 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,966 that the world is gonna be all windmills and solar panels 542 00:20:40,966 --> 00:20:42,500 in the future. 543 00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:44,966 And there's gonna be thermal generation. 544 00:20:44,966 --> 00:20:45,900 And the question is, 545 00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:46,900 what's the fuel? 546 00:20:46,900 --> 00:20:48,333 And how does it get cleaned up? 547 00:20:48,333 --> 00:20:50,633 Hydrogen is a real option. 548 00:20:50,633 --> 00:20:54,233 They're also interesting ideas like co-firing coal and gas 549 00:20:54,233 --> 00:20:56,000 with hydrogen carriers. 550 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,000 Ammonia being one 551 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:03,233 where in addition to feeding natural gas into a turbine, 552 00:21:03,233 --> 00:21:04,933 you're feeding ammonia 553 00:21:04,933 --> 00:21:09,066 and the hydrogen is coming off the nitrogen. 554 00:21:09,066 --> 00:21:10,433 You're capturing the NOx 555 00:21:10,433 --> 00:21:13,066 that also unfortunately is produced, 556 00:21:13,066 --> 00:21:15,866 so that it doesn't go out atmosphere as well. 557 00:21:15,866 --> 00:21:17,433 - But you're not producing the CO2- 558 00:21:17,433 --> 00:21:19,966 - You're not producing as much CO2 559 00:21:19,966 --> 00:21:22,900 because you're diluting it with a different fuel. 560 00:21:22,900 --> 00:21:25,900 So those sorts of things 561 00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:27,766 are being seriously explored as options 562 00:21:27,766 --> 00:21:30,033 and could happen relatively quickly. 563 00:21:30,033 --> 00:21:31,366 - Right. Right. 564 00:21:31,366 --> 00:21:32,466 - You have a chance 565 00:21:32,466 --> 00:21:35,266 to have somebody take away a couple things 566 00:21:35,266 --> 00:21:36,433 as they're listening to this. 567 00:21:36,433 --> 00:21:39,733 What are the most important points to remember 568 00:21:39,733 --> 00:21:44,400 about empowering and powering the developing world? 569 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,200 What do I need to know? 570 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:47,966 - I have a very strong conviction 571 00:21:47,966 --> 00:21:50,300 that there's a lot of headroom for technology 572 00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:52,466 and that we have to really continue 573 00:21:52,466 --> 00:21:54,266 to act on the pressure to innovate, 574 00:21:54,266 --> 00:21:55,800 and that we can get a long, long way 575 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,933 in creating economic opportunities 576 00:21:57,933 --> 00:22:01,000 to decarbonize and to expand access. 577 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,666 So definitely innovation. 578 00:22:03,666 --> 00:22:06,100 I think the other thing to recognize 579 00:22:06,100 --> 00:22:11,433 is that we have an ethical responsibility 580 00:22:11,433 --> 00:22:14,800 to make funding available as well as that technology, 581 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,133 to enable governments to develop policy 582 00:22:18,133 --> 00:22:20,766 that creates economic activity and development 583 00:22:20,766 --> 00:22:22,633 that benefits everyone. 584 00:22:22,633 --> 00:22:24,833 Third, I think we have to recognize 585 00:22:24,833 --> 00:22:28,033 the heterogeneity among poor countries, 586 00:22:28,033 --> 00:22:30,433 and the rates at which they're progressing 587 00:22:30,433 --> 00:22:34,200 towards becoming big emitters and climate challenges. 588 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,333 Africa isn't there yet. 589 00:22:36,333 --> 00:22:39,533 And putting too much emphasis on climate 590 00:22:39,533 --> 00:22:42,266 as a priority in Africa is a mistake. 591 00:22:42,266 --> 00:22:43,966 We need to focus on access. 592 00:22:43,966 --> 00:22:48,033 And we really need to eliminate electricity poverty 593 00:22:48,033 --> 00:22:49,666 within the coming decade. 594 00:22:49,666 --> 00:22:52,433 It won't happen without a massive effort. 595 00:22:52,433 --> 00:22:55,333 It won't happen without a rational approach 596 00:22:55,333 --> 00:22:56,866 to resource use. 597 00:22:56,866 --> 00:22:58,800 And it won't happen without rational policy. 598 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:00,700 But all those things are very doable. 599 00:23:00,700 --> 00:23:02,333 [Scott] Right. Right. Right. 600 00:23:02,333 --> 00:23:06,666 - So I think for me, there is no future that is inclusive, 601 00:23:06,666 --> 00:23:07,833 that is jobs rich, 602 00:23:07,833 --> 00:23:10,400 that creates opportunities and upward mobility 603 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,600 for close to a billion people 604 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:18,166 without a serious global effort on ending energy poverty. 605 00:23:18,166 --> 00:23:20,000 And the second thing is, 606 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:25,866 the climate crisis that we face or will face 607 00:23:25,866 --> 00:23:29,400 in more acute forms in the future is real. 608 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,033 It also cannot be wished away by action 609 00:23:33,033 --> 00:23:35,666 only in rich countries. 610 00:23:35,666 --> 00:23:36,766 That the challenge we have 611 00:23:36,766 --> 00:23:40,000 with a massively growing emerging world 612 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:45,000 is that we have to find a way of enabling that growth, 613 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,066 as well as enabling a transition 614 00:23:47,066 --> 00:23:49,566 and a level of decarbonization. 615 00:23:49,566 --> 00:23:54,400 And that is a complex balancing act. 616 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,100 And I think the third is, 617 00:23:56,100 --> 00:23:58,366 we just need a massive, massive increase 618 00:23:58,366 --> 00:24:01,566 in a global commitment to action. 619 00:24:01,566 --> 00:24:03,466 Sort of thing Rob is talking about 620 00:24:03,466 --> 00:24:05,900 from a moral imperative around this 621 00:24:05,900 --> 00:24:08,766 that requires rich countries, 622 00:24:08,766 --> 00:24:10,800 developing country governments, 623 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,833 investors, philanthropies, 624 00:24:12,833 --> 00:24:14,900 development banks, the private sector 625 00:24:14,900 --> 00:24:16,100 to actually come together 626 00:24:16,100 --> 00:24:18,833 in a much, much more authentic and serious way and say, 627 00:24:18,833 --> 00:24:23,666 "We can actually create a pipeline of action." 628 00:24:23,666 --> 00:24:25,733 Because ultimately it's action on the ground 629 00:24:25,733 --> 00:24:27,500 that is gonna change things. 630 00:24:27,500 --> 00:24:29,400 And that's where we have a fairly narrow window. 631 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,333 We can't spend the next seven or eight years figuring out 632 00:24:32,333 --> 00:24:33,633 how we are going to do this. 633 00:24:33,633 --> 00:24:35,900 We have to start doing this now. 634 00:24:35,900 --> 00:24:37,500 - I appreciate your sharing your insights 635 00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:39,333 and being here with us today. 636 00:24:39,333 --> 00:24:41,000 - Oh, thank you very much, Scott. 637 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:41,966 Yeah, pleasure. 638 00:24:41,966 --> 00:24:43,333 - Thanks for having us. 639 00:24:43,333 --> 00:24:46,300 [Scott] Today, electricity in the developing world 640 00:24:46,300 --> 00:24:49,000 comes mainly from coal and hydro. 641 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,666 They're getting more wind and particularly solar, 642 00:24:51,666 --> 00:24:52,733 which can provide 643 00:24:52,733 --> 00:24:54,766 transformational first electricity 644 00:24:54,766 --> 00:24:57,600 but are less good at powering commerce. 645 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,666 They can be backed up by batteries, 646 00:24:59,666 --> 00:25:02,900 though these are expensive and difficult to deploy. 647 00:25:02,900 --> 00:25:05,666 In the end, we'll need to expand the grid. 648 00:25:05,666 --> 00:25:09,133 But this is hard when end consumers can't pay, 649 00:25:09,133 --> 00:25:11,400 and utilities are often bankrupt. 650 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,033 Still, there has been progress in electricity 651 00:25:14,033 --> 00:25:16,733 while dirty cooking fuels remain entrenched. 652 00:25:16,733 --> 00:25:20,200 Indoor smoke kills three million people per year, 653 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:21,700 mostly women. 654 00:25:21,700 --> 00:25:25,633 LPG, biogas and electricity are cleaner options, 655 00:25:25,633 --> 00:25:27,866 but they're making slow progress. 656 00:25:27,866 --> 00:25:31,533 Liquid fuels for heavy transport and heat for industry 657 00:25:31,533 --> 00:25:33,400 will also be challenging. 658 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,900 Our work in this area shows that reducing energy poverty, 659 00:25:36,900 --> 00:25:39,400 especially increasing electricity access, 660 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,800 while helping poor nations grow on a lower emission trajectory, 661 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,533 is key to the health of our entire global society. 662 00:25:47,500 --> 00:25:54,466 [dramatic music] 663 00:25:54,466 --> 00:26:03,600 ♪ ♪ 664 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:11,066 ♪ ♪ 665 00:26:12,366 --> 00:26:13,766 [Announcer] Funding for "Energy Switch" 666 00:26:13,766 --> 00:26:16,933 was provided in part by 667 00:26:16,933 --> 00:26:19,366 The University of Texas at Austin, 668 00:26:19,366 --> 00:26:21,866 leading research in energy and the environment 669 00:26:21,866 --> 00:26:23,733 for a better tomorrow. 670 00:26:23,733 --> 00:26:27,133 What starts here changes the world. 671 00:26:27,433 --> 00:26:29,466 And by EarthX, 672 00:26:29,466 --> 00:26:31,033 an international nonprofit 673 00:26:31,033 --> 00:26:33,600 working towards a more sustainable future. 674 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,766 See more at earthx.org.