>> PHIL, THANK YOU.

>> SECOND DEGREE MURDER

CONVICTION OF POLICE OFFICER

JASON VAN DYKE AS WELL AS HIS

CONVICTION ON 16 COUNTS OF

AGGRAVATED BATTERY WITH A WEAPON

IN THE FATAL SHOOTING OF LAQUAN

McDONALD HAS GENERATED DIVIDED

OPINION AMONG POLICE OFFICERS.

SOME VIEW VAN DYKE AS ACTING

FULLY WITHIN HIS RIGHTS WHEN

FACED WITH AN ARMED AND

POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS SUSPECT,

OTHERS BELIEVE HE WAS TOO QUICK

TO USE DEADLY FORCE.

HERE NOW TO DISCUSS THE TRIAL,

THE VERDICT AND WHAT IMPACT IT

MAY HAVE ON POLICING ARE THREE

FORMER POLICE OFFICERS.

BRIAN WARNER, HE IS RETIRED FROM

THE CPD AND FOUNDER OF THE

CHICAGO POLICE SURVIVORS A GROUP

OF OFFICERS WHO SURVIVED

TRAUMATIC INCIDENTS.

MIKE BROWN THE FORMER SOUTH

SUBURBAN POLICE OFFICER AND

OWNER OF A SECURITY AND FIREARMS

TRAINING AGENCY.

AND KIMBERLY MARSHALL, A FORMER

CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER WHO

EARLIER THIS YEAR COMPLETED A

PSYCHOLOGY DEGREE AND HOPES TO

WORK IN THE FIELD OF MENTAL

HEALTH.

WELCOME ALL OF YOU TO "CHICAGO

TONIGHT."

LET'S JUST GO DOWN THE LINE.

BRIAN, WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR

MIND WHEN THE VERDICT WAS READ?

>> I THOUGHT IT WAS A

CONTINUATION OF THE TRAGEDY

BECAUSE THE TRAGEDY THAT

HAPPENED THAT NIGHT WAS LAQUAN

McDONALD WHO WAS FROM BORN TO

A MOTHER 13 OR 14 YEARS OLD.

HE WAS THROUGH A FOSTER CARE

SYSTEM THROUGH HIS OWN ADMISSION

HE STARTED DOING DRUGS.

THE SYSTEM FAILED HIM, HIS

FAMILY FAILED HIM AND THAT

VERDICT FAILED JASON VAN DYKE

BECAUSE OF POLITICS.

THE POLITICIANS GOT INVOLVED AND

EMOTION GOT INVOLVED NOW WE HAVE

A FATHER AND HUSBAND WHO IS

GOING AWAY FOR MANY, MANY YEARS

AND I DON'T THINK IT IS JUST.

>> MIKE, WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR

MIND?

>> WELL, I KNEW THE STATE DID

NOT ESTABLISH ENOUGH BURDEN TO

MEET FIRST DEGREE MURDER.

BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT THE FORCE

USED IN THAT CASE WAS NOT

JUSTIFIED.

AND SO THERE HAS TO BE A DIVIDE

OR A FINE LINE BETWEEN

SUPPORTING POLICE ACTIONS THAT

ARE LAWFUL AND HAVING THE

COURAGE TO BE ABLE TO STATE WHEN

IT'S UNLAWFUL THAT WE CALL IT

WHAT IT IS.

>> YOU THOUGHT SECOND DEGREE

MURDER WAS FAIR AND 16 COUNTS OF

AGGRAVATED BATTERY WITH A WEAPON

FAIR?

>> I FOUND THE 16 COUNTS TO BE

ODD INVESTIGATING HOMICIDES IT

IS NOT THE CASE THAT PER SHOT IS

A CHARGE WHERE IT IS A THEORY OF

THE CRIME.

>> KIMBERLY WHAT ABOUT YOU?

>> I THOUGHT THAT THE VERDICT

WAS JUST.

UNFORTUNATELY FOR OFFICER VAN

DYKE HE MADE A VERY BAD CHOICE

THAT NIGHT.

I KNOW HIS FAMILY WILL BE

DEVASTATED BUT LAQUAN McDONALD

IS STILL DEAD.

AND HIS TRAGEDY OF HIS LIFE IS

EVEN --

LIKE YOU SAID --

IT IS TRAGIC IT IS MORE TRAGIC.

BUT IF HE WAS ALIVE THERE WOULD

BE THE POSSIBILITY HE COULD GET

THE HELP THAT HE NEEDS.

OFFICER VAN DYKE'S ACTIONS WERE

A TRAGIC MISTAKE.

>> ALL THREE OF YOU HAVE WORN A

SHIELD AND CARRIED A WEAPON.

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE

ARGUMENT THAT OFFICER VAN DYKE

FIRED WHEN EVERY OTHER OFFICER

ON THAT SCENE DID NOT?

>> ONE OF THE FIRST OFFICERS ON

THE SCENE KEPT DESCRIBING HIM HE

IS FOLLOWING BEHIND LAQUAN.

JASON IS ONE OF THE FEW OFFICERS

THAT HE APPROACH AND WENT TOWARD

IT IS A DIFFERENCE FROM

FOLLOWING SOMEBODY OR TRYING TO

BOX SOMEBODY IN AND THE PERSON

IS COMING DOWN ON YOU WITH A

KNIFE AND REFUSING LAWFUL ORDERS

TO DROP THAT KNIFE HE HAS EVERY

RIGHT TO PROTECT HIMSELF BYLAW

AND HIS TRAINING.

TO CHASTISE HIM AND VILIFY THE

POLICE AND HANDOUT $5 MILLION OF

OUR TAX DOLLARS TO A CRIMINAL,

IT IS UNFORTUNATE.

AND THAT HAS TO STOP.

THERE ARE SO MANY TIMES WE

HANDOUT MONEY --

>> BEFORE WE GET TO THE MONEY.

THE BUSINESS THAT NO OTHER

OFFICER FIRED.

IS THAT A REASONABLE ARGUMENT?

>> THAT IS A VERY REASONABLE

ARGUMENT AND THERE IS ANOTHER

ARGUMENT IN USE OF FORCE

TRAINING CALLED OFFICER INDUCED

JEOPARDY.

GIVEN ALL THE OFFICERS WERE

TRAINED AT THE ACADEMY, THE

QUESTION THAT I HAVE IS WHAT IF

ANYTHING MADE JASON VAN DYKE

FIRE THAT DID NOT MAKE THE OTHER

OFFICERS FIRE?

WE CAN ARGUE HIS PARTNER

INJECTED HIM INTO A SITUATION

THAT MIGHT HAVE CREATED THAT

LEVEL BUT THEN WHERE IS THE

RESTRAINT?

AND WE SEE THE VIDEO WE CANNOT

ACCURATELY MEASURE DISTANCE BUT

I'M NOT GOING TO ARGUE HE WAS IN

IMMINENT FEAR OF LOSING HIS LIFE

AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME.

>> AND KIMBERLY YOU AGREE?

>> I AGREE WITH MIKE.

DEADLY FORCE IS JUST THAT.

IT IS TO PROTECT LIFE.

IT IS TO PROTECT YOUR LIFE OR

THE LIFE OF SOMEONE ELSE.

THAT YOU FEEL THIS PERSON WILL

KILL.

WE HAVE A USE OF FORCE MODEL

THAT STATES WHEN A PERSON IS

INSIDE YOUR ENVELOPE THAT IS

WHEN YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER.

THAT IS WHEN YOUR LIFE IS

THREATENED AND THAT IS WHEN

DEADLY FORCE THAT IS WHAT I WAS

TAUGHT WHEN DEADLY FORCE IS

USED.

I DID NOT SEE ON THE TAPE WHERE

VAN DYKE AND LAQUAN McDONALD

WERE CLOSE ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY BE

A VIABLE THREAT.

HE HAD OTHER OPTIONS.

HE COULD HAVE RETREATED.

>> BRIAN YOU SAW SOMETHING

DIFFERENT?

>> I DID.

IT WAS MEASURED THE DISTANCE

CAME TO ABOUT 13 FEET.

AND YOU STATE A LOT OF FACTS IN

TRAINING, AND YOU KNOW 21-FOOT

RULE.

THE 21-FOOT RULE WAS VIOLATED.

>> AND THE 21-FOOT RULE IS THAT

IN A MATTER OF SECONDS A SUSPECT

CAN SEPARATE THE DISTANCE OF 21

FEET?

>> YES.

THE 21-FOOT RULE IS BY THE TIME

THE BRAIN BEGINS TO RECOGNIZE

THAT THERE IS A THREAT YOU DON'T

HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO BE ABLE TO

REACT TO THE THREAT BY THE TIME

YOU BEGIN TO REACT YOU ARE

STABBED.

SO --

>> REACTION IS SLOWER THAN

ACTION.

LAW ENFORCEMENT AND BEING

TRAINED TO KNOW THIS ATTACK IS

COMING UPON HIM HE FELT AN

IMMINENT THREAT AND TOOK ACTION.

>> WHAT IMPACT IS THIS VERDICT

HAVING ON THE STREET?

YOU ALL, ALL THREE OF YOU ARE

RETIRED AND YOU TALK TO YOUR

FELLOW OFFICERS YOUR COLLEAGUES

ALL THE TIME.

WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THE STREET?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I

WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT IS THAT

DURING THAT SAME WEEK THAT THE

VAN DYKE VERDICT CAME OUT, THERE

WAS A SHOOTING IN SOUTH

CAROLINA.

SEVEN POLICE OFFICERS, ONE DEAD

ON THE SCENE.

AND THAT OFFENDER WAS TAKEN

ALIVE.

>> YOU KNOW WHY HE WAS TAKEN

ALIVE?

BECAUSE HE GAVE UP AND DROPPED

HIS WEAPON.

HAD LAQUAN McDONALD DROPPED

HIS KNIFE HE MAY BE ALIVE.

YOU ARE TALKING APPLES AND

ORANGES.

>> NO, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE

TIME THAT THEY WAITED TO

NEGOTIATE AND TO MAKE SURE THAT

THAT PERSON WAS TAKEN ALIVE.

>> IT WAS AN ONGOING ESCALATING

SITUATION.

HE SHOWED HIS ABILITY TO USE THE

KNIFE ON THE GENTLEMAN AT THE

YARD.

HE SHOWED HIS ABILITY TO USE THE

KNIFE ON A SQUAD CAR HOW MUCH

MORE ARE WE SUPPOSED TO GIVE

HIM?

>> BACK TO TODAY AND ON THE

STREET AND OFFICERS TODAY WHAT

IS THE EFFECT OF THIS VERDICT ON

THEM?

>> MORE IMPORTANTLY, I THINK YOU

SAW IT IN ENGLEWOOD YESTERDAY

WHEN THE PEOPLE PULLED THE

OFFICERS INTO THE APARTMENT AND

WANTED TO LOCK THE DOOR AND BEAT

THEM BECAUSE NOW THEY ARE MORE

BRAZEN BECAUSE THIS IS THE

ENVIRONMENT WE ARE CREATING.

>> I AGREE WITH THAT PEOPLE ARE

GETTING MORE BRAZEN WHEN THEY

ATTACK THE POLICE.

SO --

WHAT IS HAPPENING --

>> IS THAT THE EFFECT OF THE

VERDICT?

>> NOT JUST THE VERDICT BUT THE

FERGUSON EFFECT AFTER FERGUSON

AND THEN THE SITUATION INVOLVING

DARREN WILSON AND THE UNFAIR

CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT THE

POLICE CAN DO AND WHAT THEY NEED

TO REFORM AND NOT THE

CONVERSATION THAT NEEDS TO

HAPPEN IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

NOW YOU ARE HAVING OFFICERS WHO

ARE SELFLESS PERSONS WE RUN

TOWARDS GUNFIRE WE DON'T THINK

ABOUT OUR FAMILIES AT THAT TIME

NOW YOU ARE BEGINNING TO THINK

ABOUT FAMILIES AND PENSIONS

BECAUSE I DO NOT WANT TO BE

VILIFIED FOR DOING THE RIGHT

THING AND LOSE YOUR JOB AND YOUR

WELL-BEING AS WELL.

>> WHERE DOES RACE COME IN THIS

CONVERSATION?

>> RACE IS IMPORTANT PART OF ALL

LAW ENFORCEMENT.

BUT I'M SURE YOU'VE SAT IN THE

SAME SQUAD CAR I'VE HEARD A LOT

OF CHATTER ON THE POLICE RADIO I

HAVE NEVER HEARD AN OFFICER SAY

SQUAD IS THAT OFFENDER BLACK OR

WHITE?

YOU ARE OUT THERE LOOKING FOR

THE DESCRIPTION OF THE PERSON

GIVEN TO YOU.

AND FERGUSON DID A DISSERVICE.

>> THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OF THE

CITY OF CHICAGO.

>> NO, JOE McMAHON WHEN HE IN

HIS OPENING REMARKS SAID THIS

WAS A BLACK BOY WHO HAD THE

AUDACITY TO WALK PAST A

POLICEMAN AND THAT IS WHY HE WAS

SHOT.

THERE IS NOT ONE SHRED OF

EVIDENCE TO SAY RACE HAD

ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS.

I AGREE, I DON'T SEE THAT RACE

PLAYED A FACTOR IN THE DECISION

TO USE FORCE.

I DISAGREE WITH THE FORCE, I

CANNOT HONESTLY STATE THAT RACE

PLAYED A FACTOR.

>> KIMBERLY?

>> I HAVE TO SAY THAT WHEN WE

LOOK AT MASS SHOOTERS AND SCHOOL

SHOOTERS AND THE AMOUNT OF THEM

THAT HAVE BEEN TAKEN ALIVE,

WITHOUT BEING KILLED, DYLAN

ROOF --

>> DID RACE PLAY A ROLE IN THIS?

>> IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IF THIS

PERSON THAT IS DOING THE

SHOOTING HAS BEEN WHITE IN THE

PAST, HE IS TAKEN ALIVE.

TOO MANY TIMES I'VE SEEN UNARMED

AND LIKE LAQUAN BLACK PEOPLE

THAT ARE NOT TAKEN ALIVE.

SO IS THAT ABOUT RACE?

>> ROOF, YOU GAVE ANOTHER

EXAMPLE OF A GUY WHO KILLED ALL

THESE PEOPLE, PULLED OVER BY THE

POLICE AND PUTS HIS HANDS OUT

THE WINDOW AND GIVES UP.

HAD LAQUAN DONE THAT COMPLIANCE

IS SO IMPORTANT WE HAVE TO PUT

RESPONSIBILITY IN THE COMMUNITY

AND IN THE OFFENDERRERS AND STOP

REWARDING THEM FOR BAD BEHAVIOR.

>> I DON'T THINK THAT HIM BEING

KILLED WAS A REWARD FOR HIS BAD

BEHAVIOR.

[INAUDIBLE]

>> I THINK THAT.

>> WAS HE BREAKING THE LAW?

WAS HE HIGH ON DRUGS?

IS THAT GOOD BEHAVIOR?

>> BRIAN, I'M NOT --

I DON'T WANT TO VOLLEY WITH YOU

ON THAT LEVEL.

WHAT I'M SAYING TO YOU IS

THIS...

INDIVIDUAL POLICE OFFICERS THAT

THE MAKE THE DECISION TO USE

DEADLY FORCE HAVE TO HAVE

EXHAUSTED ALL OTHER MEASURES.

>> AND THAT IS WHERE WE'RE GOING

TO STOP THE CONVERSATION FOR

NOW.

BUT THIS CONVERSATION WILL

CONTINUE.

AND WE HAVE A SENTENCE YET TO

SEE.

AND MUCH MORE TO DISCUSS AND WE