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>> PHIL, THANK YOU.

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>> SECOND DEGREE MURDER

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CONVICTION OF POLICE OFFICER

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JASON VAN DYKE AS WELL AS HIS

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CONVICTION ON 16 COUNTS OF

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AGGRAVATED BATTERY WITH A WEAPON

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IN THE FATAL SHOOTING OF LAQUAN

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McDONALD HAS GENERATED DIVIDED

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OPINION AMONG POLICE OFFICERS.

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SOME VIEW VAN DYKE AS ACTING

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FULLY WITHIN HIS RIGHTS WHEN

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FACED WITH AN ARMED AND

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POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS SUSPECT,

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OTHERS BELIEVE HE WAS TOO QUICK

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TO USE DEADLY FORCE.

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HERE NOW TO DISCUSS THE TRIAL,

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THE VERDICT AND WHAT IMPACT IT

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MAY HAVE ON POLICING ARE THREE

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FORMER POLICE OFFICERS.

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BRIAN WARNER, HE IS RETIRED FROM

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THE CPD AND FOUNDER OF THE

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CHICAGO POLICE SURVIVORS A GROUP

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OF OFFICERS WHO SURVIVED

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TRAUMATIC INCIDENTS.

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MIKE BROWN THE FORMER SOUTH

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SUBURBAN POLICE OFFICER AND

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OWNER OF A SECURITY AND FIREARMS

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TRAINING AGENCY.

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AND KIMBERLY MARSHALL, A FORMER

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CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER WHO

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EARLIER THIS YEAR COMPLETED A

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PSYCHOLOGY DEGREE AND HOPES TO

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WORK IN THE FIELD OF MENTAL

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HEALTH.

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WELCOME ALL OF YOU TO "CHICAGO

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TONIGHT."

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LET'S JUST GO DOWN THE LINE.

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BRIAN, WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR

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MIND WHEN THE VERDICT WAS READ?

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>> I THOUGHT IT WAS A

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CONTINUATION OF THE TRAGEDY

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BECAUSE THE TRAGEDY THAT

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HAPPENED THAT NIGHT WAS LAQUAN

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McDONALD WHO WAS FROM BORN TO

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A MOTHER 13 OR 14 YEARS OLD.

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HE WAS THROUGH A FOSTER CARE

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SYSTEM THROUGH HIS OWN ADMISSION

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HE STARTED DOING DRUGS.

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THE SYSTEM FAILED HIM, HIS

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FAMILY FAILED HIM AND THAT

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VERDICT FAILED JASON VAN DYKE

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BECAUSE OF POLITICS.

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THE POLITICIANS GOT INVOLVED AND

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EMOTION GOT INVOLVED NOW WE HAVE

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A FATHER AND HUSBAND WHO IS

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GOING AWAY FOR MANY, MANY YEARS

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AND I DON'T THINK IT IS JUST.

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>> MIKE, WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR

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MIND?

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>> WELL, I KNEW THE STATE DID

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NOT ESTABLISH ENOUGH BURDEN TO

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MEET FIRST DEGREE MURDER.

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BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT THE FORCE

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USED IN THAT CASE WAS NOT

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JUSTIFIED.

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AND SO THERE HAS TO BE A DIVIDE

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OR A FINE LINE BETWEEN

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SUPPORTING POLICE ACTIONS THAT

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ARE LAWFUL AND HAVING THE

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COURAGE TO BE ABLE TO STATE WHEN

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IT'S UNLAWFUL THAT WE CALL IT

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WHAT IT IS.

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>> YOU THOUGHT SECOND DEGREE

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MURDER WAS FAIR AND 16 COUNTS OF

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AGGRAVATED BATTERY WITH A WEAPON

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FAIR?

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>> I FOUND THE 16 COUNTS TO BE

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ODD INVESTIGATING HOMICIDES IT

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IS NOT THE CASE THAT PER SHOT IS

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A CHARGE WHERE IT IS A THEORY OF

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THE CRIME.

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>> KIMBERLY WHAT ABOUT YOU?

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>> I THOUGHT THAT THE VERDICT

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WAS JUST.

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UNFORTUNATELY FOR OFFICER VAN

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DYKE HE MADE A VERY BAD CHOICE

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THAT NIGHT.

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I KNOW HIS FAMILY WILL BE

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DEVASTATED BUT LAQUAN McDONALD

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IS STILL DEAD.

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AND HIS TRAGEDY OF HIS LIFE IS

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EVEN --

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LIKE YOU SAID --

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IT IS TRAGIC IT IS MORE TRAGIC.

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BUT IF HE WAS ALIVE THERE WOULD

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BE THE POSSIBILITY HE COULD GET

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THE HELP THAT HE NEEDS.

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OFFICER VAN DYKE'S ACTIONS WERE

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A TRAGIC MISTAKE.

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>> ALL THREE OF YOU HAVE WORN A

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SHIELD AND CARRIED A WEAPON.

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WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE

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ARGUMENT THAT OFFICER VAN DYKE

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FIRED WHEN EVERY OTHER OFFICER

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ON THAT SCENE DID NOT?

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>> ONE OF THE FIRST OFFICERS ON

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THE SCENE KEPT DESCRIBING HIM HE

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IS FOLLOWING BEHIND LAQUAN.

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JASON IS ONE OF THE FEW OFFICERS

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THAT HE APPROACH AND WENT TOWARD

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IT IS A DIFFERENCE FROM

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FOLLOWING SOMEBODY OR TRYING TO

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BOX SOMEBODY IN AND THE PERSON

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IS COMING DOWN ON YOU WITH A

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KNIFE AND REFUSING LAWFUL ORDERS

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TO DROP THAT KNIFE HE HAS EVERY

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RIGHT TO PROTECT HIMSELF BYLAW

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AND HIS TRAINING.

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TO CHASTISE HIM AND VILIFY THE

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POLICE AND HANDOUT $5 MILLION OF

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OUR TAX DOLLARS TO A CRIMINAL,

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IT IS UNFORTUNATE.

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AND THAT HAS TO STOP.

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THERE ARE SO MANY TIMES WE

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HANDOUT MONEY --

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>> BEFORE WE GET TO THE MONEY.

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THE BUSINESS THAT NO OTHER

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OFFICER FIRED.

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IS THAT A REASONABLE ARGUMENT?

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>> THAT IS A VERY REASONABLE

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ARGUMENT AND THERE IS ANOTHER

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ARGUMENT IN USE OF FORCE

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TRAINING CALLED OFFICER INDUCED

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JEOPARDY.

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GIVEN ALL THE OFFICERS WERE

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TRAINED AT THE ACADEMY, THE

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QUESTION THAT I HAVE IS WHAT IF

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ANYTHING MADE JASON VAN DYKE

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FIRE THAT DID NOT MAKE THE OTHER

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OFFICERS FIRE?

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WE CAN ARGUE HIS PARTNER

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INJECTED HIM INTO A SITUATION

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THAT MIGHT HAVE CREATED THAT

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LEVEL BUT THEN WHERE IS THE

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RESTRAINT?

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AND WE SEE THE VIDEO WE CANNOT

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ACCURATELY MEASURE DISTANCE BUT

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I'M NOT GOING TO ARGUE HE WAS IN

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IMMINENT FEAR OF LOSING HIS LIFE

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AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME.

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>> AND KIMBERLY YOU AGREE?

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>> I AGREE WITH MIKE.

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DEADLY FORCE IS JUST THAT.

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IT IS TO PROTECT LIFE.

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IT IS TO PROTECT YOUR LIFE OR

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THE LIFE OF SOMEONE ELSE.

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THAT YOU FEEL THIS PERSON WILL

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KILL.

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WE HAVE A USE OF FORCE MODEL

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THAT STATES WHEN A PERSON IS

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INSIDE YOUR ENVELOPE THAT IS

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WHEN YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER.

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THAT IS WHEN YOUR LIFE IS

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THREATENED AND THAT IS WHEN

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DEADLY FORCE THAT IS WHAT I WAS

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TAUGHT WHEN DEADLY FORCE IS

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USED.

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I DID NOT SEE ON THE TAPE WHERE

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VAN DYKE AND LAQUAN McDONALD

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WERE CLOSE ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY BE

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A VIABLE THREAT.

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HE HAD OTHER OPTIONS.

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HE COULD HAVE RETREATED.

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>> BRIAN YOU SAW SOMETHING

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DIFFERENT?

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>> I DID.

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IT WAS MEASURED THE DISTANCE

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CAME TO ABOUT 13 FEET.

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AND YOU STATE A LOT OF FACTS IN

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TRAINING, AND YOU KNOW 21-FOOT

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RULE.

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THE 21-FOOT RULE WAS VIOLATED.

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>> AND THE 21-FOOT RULE IS THAT

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IN A MATTER OF SECONDS A SUSPECT

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CAN SEPARATE THE DISTANCE OF 21

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FEET?

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>> YES.

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THE 21-FOOT RULE IS BY THE TIME

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THE BRAIN BEGINS TO RECOGNIZE

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THAT THERE IS A THREAT YOU DON'T

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HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO BE ABLE TO

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REACT TO THE THREAT BY THE TIME

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YOU BEGIN TO REACT YOU ARE

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STABBED.

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SO --

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>> REACTION IS SLOWER THAN

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ACTION.

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LAW ENFORCEMENT AND BEING

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TRAINED TO KNOW THIS ATTACK IS

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COMING UPON HIM HE FELT AN

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IMMINENT THREAT AND TOOK ACTION.

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>> WHAT IMPACT IS THIS VERDICT

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HAVING ON THE STREET?

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YOU ALL, ALL THREE OF YOU ARE

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RETIRED AND YOU TALK TO YOUR

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FELLOW OFFICERS YOUR COLLEAGUES

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ALL THE TIME.

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WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THE STREET?

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>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I

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WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT IS THAT

211
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DURING THAT SAME WEEK THAT THE

212
00:06:38,866 --> 00:06:44,100
VAN DYKE VERDICT CAME OUT, THERE

213
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WAS A SHOOTING IN SOUTH

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CAROLINA.

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SEVEN POLICE OFFICERS, ONE DEAD

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ON THE SCENE.

217
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AND THAT OFFENDER WAS TAKEN

218
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ALIVE.

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>> YOU KNOW WHY HE WAS TAKEN

220
00:06:53,966 --> 00:06:57,600
ALIVE?

221
00:06:54,433 --> 00:06:58,466
BECAUSE HE GAVE UP AND DROPPED

222
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HIS WEAPON.

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HAD LAQUAN McDONALD DROPPED

224
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HIS KNIFE HE MAY BE ALIVE.

225
00:07:01,866 --> 00:07:05,466
YOU ARE TALKING APPLES AND

226
00:07:03,766 --> 00:07:07,900
ORANGES.

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>> NO, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE

228
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TIME THAT THEY WAITED TO

229
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NEGOTIATE AND TO MAKE SURE THAT

230
00:07:09,900 --> 00:07:16,333
THAT PERSON WAS TAKEN ALIVE.

231
00:07:13,100 --> 00:07:19,100
>> IT WAS AN ONGOING ESCALATING

232
00:07:15,966 --> 00:07:20,500
SITUATION.

233
00:07:16,333 --> 00:07:20,800
HE SHOWED HIS ABILITY TO USE THE

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KNIFE ON THE GENTLEMAN AT THE

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YARD.

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HE SHOWED HIS ABILITY TO USE THE

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KNIFE ON A SQUAD CAR HOW MUCH

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MORE ARE WE SUPPOSED TO GIVE

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HIM?

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>> BACK TO TODAY AND ON THE

241
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STREET AND OFFICERS TODAY WHAT

242
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IS THE EFFECT OF THIS VERDICT ON

243
00:07:31,633 --> 00:07:35,133
THEM?

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>> MORE IMPORTANTLY, I THINK YOU

245
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SAW IT IN ENGLEWOOD YESTERDAY

246
00:07:35,133 --> 00:07:40,666
WHEN THE PEOPLE PULLED THE

247
00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:42,733
OFFICERS INTO THE APARTMENT AND

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WANTED TO LOCK THE DOOR AND BEAT

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THEM BECAUSE NOW THEY ARE MORE

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BRAZEN BECAUSE THIS IS THE

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ENVIRONMENT WE ARE CREATING.

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>> I AGREE WITH THAT PEOPLE ARE

253
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GETTING MORE BRAZEN WHEN THEY

254
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ATTACK THE POLICE.

255
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SO --

256
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WHAT IS HAPPENING --

257
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>> IS THAT THE EFFECT OF THE

258
00:07:55,300 --> 00:07:58,866
VERDICT?

259
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>> NOT JUST THE VERDICT BUT THE

260
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FERGUSON EFFECT AFTER FERGUSON

261
00:07:58,866 --> 00:08:05,233
AND THEN THE SITUATION INVOLVING

262
00:08:02,566 --> 00:08:06,800
DARREN WILSON AND THE UNFAIR

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CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT THE

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POLICE CAN DO AND WHAT THEY NEED

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TO REFORM AND NOT THE

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CONVERSATION THAT NEEDS TO

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HAPPEN IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

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NOW YOU ARE HAVING OFFICERS WHO

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ARE SELFLESS PERSONS WE RUN

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TOWARDS GUNFIRE WE DON'T THINK

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ABOUT OUR FAMILIES AT THAT TIME

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NOW YOU ARE BEGINNING TO THINK

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ABOUT FAMILIES AND PENSIONS

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BECAUSE I DO NOT WANT TO BE

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VILIFIED FOR DOING THE RIGHT

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THING AND LOSE YOUR JOB AND YOUR

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WELL-BEING AS WELL.

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>> WHERE DOES RACE COME IN THIS

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CONVERSATION?

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>> RACE IS IMPORTANT PART OF ALL

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LAW ENFORCEMENT.

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BUT I'M SURE YOU'VE SAT IN THE

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SAME SQUAD CAR I'VE HEARD A LOT

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OF CHATTER ON THE POLICE RADIO I

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HAVE NEVER HEARD AN OFFICER SAY

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SQUAD IS THAT OFFENDER BLACK OR

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WHITE?

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YOU ARE OUT THERE LOOKING FOR

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THE DESCRIPTION OF THE PERSON

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GIVEN TO YOU.

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AND FERGUSON DID A DISSERVICE.

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>> THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OF THE

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CITY OF CHICAGO.

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>> NO, JOE McMAHON WHEN HE IN

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HIS OPENING REMARKS SAID THIS

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WAS A BLACK BOY WHO HAD THE

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AUDACITY TO WALK PAST A

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POLICEMAN AND THAT IS WHY HE WAS

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SHOT.

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THERE IS NOT ONE SHRED OF

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EVIDENCE TO SAY RACE HAD

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ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS.

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I AGREE, I DON'T SEE THAT RACE

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PLAYED A FACTOR IN THE DECISION

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TO USE FORCE.

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I DISAGREE WITH THE FORCE, I

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CANNOT HONESTLY STATE THAT RACE

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PLAYED A FACTOR.

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>> KIMBERLY?

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>> I HAVE TO SAY THAT WHEN WE

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LOOK AT MASS SHOOTERS AND SCHOOL

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SHOOTERS AND THE AMOUNT OF THEM

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THAT HAVE BEEN TAKEN ALIVE,

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WITHOUT BEING KILLED, DYLAN

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ROOF --

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>> DID RACE PLAY A ROLE IN THIS?

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>> IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IF THIS

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PERSON THAT IS DOING THE

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SHOOTING HAS BEEN WHITE IN THE

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PAST, HE IS TAKEN ALIVE.

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TOO MANY TIMES I'VE SEEN UNARMED

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AND LIKE LAQUAN BLACK PEOPLE

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THAT ARE NOT TAKEN ALIVE.

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SO IS THAT ABOUT RACE?

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>> ROOF, YOU GAVE ANOTHER

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EXAMPLE OF A GUY WHO KILLED ALL

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THESE PEOPLE, PULLED OVER BY THE

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POLICE AND PUTS HIS HANDS OUT

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THE WINDOW AND GIVES UP.

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HAD LAQUAN DONE THAT COMPLIANCE

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IS SO IMPORTANT WE HAVE TO PUT

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RESPONSIBILITY IN THE COMMUNITY

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AND IN THE OFFENDERRERS AND STOP

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REWARDING THEM FOR BAD BEHAVIOR.

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>> I DON'T THINK THAT HIM BEING

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KILLED WAS A REWARD FOR HIS BAD

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BEHAVIOR.

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[INAUDIBLE]

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>> I THINK THAT.

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>> WAS HE BREAKING THE LAW?

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WAS HE HIGH ON DRUGS?

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IS THAT GOOD BEHAVIOR?

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>> BRIAN, I'M NOT --

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I DON'T WANT TO VOLLEY WITH YOU

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ON THAT LEVEL.

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WHAT I'M SAYING TO YOU IS

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THIS...

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INDIVIDUAL POLICE OFFICERS THAT

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THE MAKE THE DECISION TO USE

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DEADLY FORCE HAVE TO HAVE

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EXHAUSTED ALL OTHER MEASURES.

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>> AND THAT IS WHERE WE'RE GOING

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TO STOP THE CONVERSATION FOR

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NOW.

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BUT THIS CONVERSATION WILL

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CONTINUE.

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AND WE HAVE A SENTENCE YET TO

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SEE.

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AND MUCH MORE TO DISCUSS AND WE