>> PHIL, THANK YOU.
>> SECOND DEGREE MURDER
CONVICTION OF POLICE OFFICER
JASON VAN DYKE AS WELL AS HIS
CONVICTION ON 16 COUNTS OF
AGGRAVATED BATTERY WITH A WEAPON
IN THE FATAL SHOOTING OF LAQUAN
McDONALD HAS GENERATED DIVIDED
OPINION AMONG POLICE OFFICERS.
SOME VIEW VAN DYKE AS ACTING
FULLY WITHIN HIS RIGHTS WHEN
FACED WITH AN ARMED AND
POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS SUSPECT,
OTHERS BELIEVE HE WAS TOO QUICK
TO USE DEADLY FORCE.
HERE NOW TO DISCUSS THE TRIAL,
THE VERDICT AND WHAT IMPACT IT
MAY HAVE ON POLICING ARE THREE
FORMER POLICE OFFICERS.
BRIAN WARNER, HE IS RETIRED FROM
THE CPD AND FOUNDER OF THE
CHICAGO POLICE SURVIVORS A GROUP
OF OFFICERS WHO SURVIVED
TRAUMATIC INCIDENTS.
MIKE BROWN THE FORMER SOUTH
SUBURBAN POLICE OFFICER AND
OWNER OF A SECURITY AND FIREARMS
TRAINING AGENCY.
AND KIMBERLY MARSHALL, A FORMER
CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER WHO
EARLIER THIS YEAR COMPLETED A
PSYCHOLOGY DEGREE AND HOPES TO
WORK IN THE FIELD OF MENTAL
HEALTH.
WELCOME ALL OF YOU TO "CHICAGO
TONIGHT."
LET'S JUST GO DOWN THE LINE.
BRIAN, WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR
MIND WHEN THE VERDICT WAS READ?
>> I THOUGHT IT WAS A
CONTINUATION OF THE TRAGEDY
BECAUSE THE TRAGEDY THAT
HAPPENED THAT NIGHT WAS LAQUAN
McDONALD WHO WAS FROM BORN TO
A MOTHER 13 OR 14 YEARS OLD.
HE WAS THROUGH A FOSTER CARE
SYSTEM THROUGH HIS OWN ADMISSION
HE STARTED DOING DRUGS.
THE SYSTEM FAILED HIM, HIS
FAMILY FAILED HIM AND THAT
VERDICT FAILED JASON VAN DYKE
BECAUSE OF POLITICS.
THE POLITICIANS GOT INVOLVED AND
EMOTION GOT INVOLVED NOW WE HAVE
A FATHER AND HUSBAND WHO IS
GOING AWAY FOR MANY, MANY YEARS
AND I DON'T THINK IT IS JUST.
>> MIKE, WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR
MIND?
>> WELL, I KNEW THE STATE DID
NOT ESTABLISH ENOUGH BURDEN TO
MEET FIRST DEGREE MURDER.
BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT THE FORCE
USED IN THAT CASE WAS NOT
JUSTIFIED.
AND SO THERE HAS TO BE A DIVIDE
OR A FINE LINE BETWEEN
SUPPORTING POLICE ACTIONS THAT
ARE LAWFUL AND HAVING THE
COURAGE TO BE ABLE TO STATE WHEN
IT'S UNLAWFUL THAT WE CALL IT
WHAT IT IS.
>> YOU THOUGHT SECOND DEGREE
MURDER WAS FAIR AND 16 COUNTS OF
AGGRAVATED BATTERY WITH A WEAPON
FAIR?
>> I FOUND THE 16 COUNTS TO BE
ODD INVESTIGATING HOMICIDES IT
IS NOT THE CASE THAT PER SHOT IS
A CHARGE WHERE IT IS A THEORY OF
THE CRIME.
>> KIMBERLY WHAT ABOUT YOU?
>> I THOUGHT THAT THE VERDICT
WAS JUST.
UNFORTUNATELY FOR OFFICER VAN
DYKE HE MADE A VERY BAD CHOICE
THAT NIGHT.
I KNOW HIS FAMILY WILL BE
DEVASTATED BUT LAQUAN McDONALD
IS STILL DEAD.
AND HIS TRAGEDY OF HIS LIFE IS
EVEN --
LIKE YOU SAID --
IT IS TRAGIC IT IS MORE TRAGIC.
BUT IF HE WAS ALIVE THERE WOULD
BE THE POSSIBILITY HE COULD GET
THE HELP THAT HE NEEDS.
OFFICER VAN DYKE'S ACTIONS WERE
A TRAGIC MISTAKE.
>> ALL THREE OF YOU HAVE WORN A
SHIELD AND CARRIED A WEAPON.
WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE
ARGUMENT THAT OFFICER VAN DYKE
FIRED WHEN EVERY OTHER OFFICER
ON THAT SCENE DID NOT?
>> ONE OF THE FIRST OFFICERS ON
THE SCENE KEPT DESCRIBING HIM HE
IS FOLLOWING BEHIND LAQUAN.
JASON IS ONE OF THE FEW OFFICERS
THAT HE APPROACH AND WENT TOWARD
IT IS A DIFFERENCE FROM
FOLLOWING SOMEBODY OR TRYING TO
BOX SOMEBODY IN AND THE PERSON
IS COMING DOWN ON YOU WITH A
KNIFE AND REFUSING LAWFUL ORDERS
TO DROP THAT KNIFE HE HAS EVERY
RIGHT TO PROTECT HIMSELF BYLAW
AND HIS TRAINING.
TO CHASTISE HIM AND VILIFY THE
POLICE AND HANDOUT $5 MILLION OF
OUR TAX DOLLARS TO A CRIMINAL,
IT IS UNFORTUNATE.
AND THAT HAS TO STOP.
THERE ARE SO MANY TIMES WE
HANDOUT MONEY --
>> BEFORE WE GET TO THE MONEY.
THE BUSINESS THAT NO OTHER
OFFICER FIRED.
IS THAT A REASONABLE ARGUMENT?
>> THAT IS A VERY REASONABLE
ARGUMENT AND THERE IS ANOTHER
ARGUMENT IN USE OF FORCE
TRAINING CALLED OFFICER INDUCED
JEOPARDY.
GIVEN ALL THE OFFICERS WERE
TRAINED AT THE ACADEMY, THE
QUESTION THAT I HAVE IS WHAT IF
ANYTHING MADE JASON VAN DYKE
FIRE THAT DID NOT MAKE THE OTHER
OFFICERS FIRE?
WE CAN ARGUE HIS PARTNER
INJECTED HIM INTO A SITUATION
THAT MIGHT HAVE CREATED THAT
LEVEL BUT THEN WHERE IS THE
RESTRAINT?
AND WE SEE THE VIDEO WE CANNOT
ACCURATELY MEASURE DISTANCE BUT
I'M NOT GOING TO ARGUE HE WAS IN
IMMINENT FEAR OF LOSING HIS LIFE
AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME.
>> AND KIMBERLY YOU AGREE?
>> I AGREE WITH MIKE.
DEADLY FORCE IS JUST THAT.
IT IS TO PROTECT LIFE.
IT IS TO PROTECT YOUR LIFE OR
THE LIFE OF SOMEONE ELSE.
THAT YOU FEEL THIS PERSON WILL
KILL.
WE HAVE A USE OF FORCE MODEL
THAT STATES WHEN A PERSON IS
INSIDE YOUR ENVELOPE THAT IS
WHEN YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER.
THAT IS WHEN YOUR LIFE IS
THREATENED AND THAT IS WHEN
DEADLY FORCE THAT IS WHAT I WAS
TAUGHT WHEN DEADLY FORCE IS
USED.
I DID NOT SEE ON THE TAPE WHERE
VAN DYKE AND LAQUAN McDONALD
WERE CLOSE ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY BE
A VIABLE THREAT.
HE HAD OTHER OPTIONS.
HE COULD HAVE RETREATED.
>> BRIAN YOU SAW SOMETHING
DIFFERENT?
>> I DID.
IT WAS MEASURED THE DISTANCE
CAME TO ABOUT 13 FEET.
AND YOU STATE A LOT OF FACTS IN
TRAINING, AND YOU KNOW 21-FOOT
RULE.
THE 21-FOOT RULE WAS VIOLATED.
>> AND THE 21-FOOT RULE IS THAT
IN A MATTER OF SECONDS A SUSPECT
CAN SEPARATE THE DISTANCE OF 21
FEET?
>> YES.
THE 21-FOOT RULE IS BY THE TIME
THE BRAIN BEGINS TO RECOGNIZE
THAT THERE IS A THREAT YOU DON'T
HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO BE ABLE TO
REACT TO THE THREAT BY THE TIME
YOU BEGIN TO REACT YOU ARE
STABBED.
SO --
>> REACTION IS SLOWER THAN
ACTION.
LAW ENFORCEMENT AND BEING
TRAINED TO KNOW THIS ATTACK IS
COMING UPON HIM HE FELT AN
IMMINENT THREAT AND TOOK ACTION.
>> WHAT IMPACT IS THIS VERDICT
HAVING ON THE STREET?
YOU ALL, ALL THREE OF YOU ARE
RETIRED AND YOU TALK TO YOUR
FELLOW OFFICERS YOUR COLLEAGUES
ALL THE TIME.
WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THE STREET?
>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I
WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT IS THAT
DURING THAT SAME WEEK THAT THE
VAN DYKE VERDICT CAME OUT, THERE
WAS A SHOOTING IN SOUTH
CAROLINA.
SEVEN POLICE OFFICERS, ONE DEAD
ON THE SCENE.
AND THAT OFFENDER WAS TAKEN
ALIVE.
>> YOU KNOW WHY HE WAS TAKEN
ALIVE?
BECAUSE HE GAVE UP AND DROPPED
HIS WEAPON.
HAD LAQUAN McDONALD DROPPED
HIS KNIFE HE MAY BE ALIVE.
YOU ARE TALKING APPLES AND
ORANGES.
>> NO, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE
TIME THAT THEY WAITED TO
NEGOTIATE AND TO MAKE SURE THAT
THAT PERSON WAS TAKEN ALIVE.
>> IT WAS AN ONGOING ESCALATING
SITUATION.
HE SHOWED HIS ABILITY TO USE THE
KNIFE ON THE GENTLEMAN AT THE
YARD.
HE SHOWED HIS ABILITY TO USE THE
KNIFE ON A SQUAD CAR HOW MUCH
MORE ARE WE SUPPOSED TO GIVE
HIM?
>> BACK TO TODAY AND ON THE
STREET AND OFFICERS TODAY WHAT
IS THE EFFECT OF THIS VERDICT ON
THEM?
>> MORE IMPORTANTLY, I THINK YOU
SAW IT IN ENGLEWOOD YESTERDAY
WHEN THE PEOPLE PULLED THE
OFFICERS INTO THE APARTMENT AND
WANTED TO LOCK THE DOOR AND BEAT
THEM BECAUSE NOW THEY ARE MORE
BRAZEN BECAUSE THIS IS THE
ENVIRONMENT WE ARE CREATING.
>> I AGREE WITH THAT PEOPLE ARE
GETTING MORE BRAZEN WHEN THEY
ATTACK THE POLICE.
SO --
WHAT IS HAPPENING --
>> IS THAT THE EFFECT OF THE
VERDICT?
>> NOT JUST THE VERDICT BUT THE
FERGUSON EFFECT AFTER FERGUSON
AND THEN THE SITUATION INVOLVING
DARREN WILSON AND THE UNFAIR
CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT THE
POLICE CAN DO AND WHAT THEY NEED
TO REFORM AND NOT THE
CONVERSATION THAT NEEDS TO
HAPPEN IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
NOW YOU ARE HAVING OFFICERS WHO
ARE SELFLESS PERSONS WE RUN
TOWARDS GUNFIRE WE DON'T THINK
ABOUT OUR FAMILIES AT THAT TIME
NOW YOU ARE BEGINNING TO THINK
ABOUT FAMILIES AND PENSIONS
BECAUSE I DO NOT WANT TO BE
VILIFIED FOR DOING THE RIGHT
THING AND LOSE YOUR JOB AND YOUR
WELL-BEING AS WELL.
>> WHERE DOES RACE COME IN THIS
CONVERSATION?
>> RACE IS IMPORTANT PART OF ALL
LAW ENFORCEMENT.
BUT I'M SURE YOU'VE SAT IN THE
SAME SQUAD CAR I'VE HEARD A LOT
OF CHATTER ON THE POLICE RADIO I
HAVE NEVER HEARD AN OFFICER SAY
SQUAD IS THAT OFFENDER BLACK OR
WHITE?
YOU ARE OUT THERE LOOKING FOR
THE DESCRIPTION OF THE PERSON
GIVEN TO YOU.
AND FERGUSON DID A DISSERVICE.
>> THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OF THE
CITY OF CHICAGO.
>> NO, JOE McMAHON WHEN HE IN
HIS OPENING REMARKS SAID THIS
WAS A BLACK BOY WHO HAD THE
AUDACITY TO WALK PAST A
POLICEMAN AND THAT IS WHY HE WAS
SHOT.
THERE IS NOT ONE SHRED OF
EVIDENCE TO SAY RACE HAD
ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS.
I AGREE, I DON'T SEE THAT RACE
PLAYED A FACTOR IN THE DECISION
TO USE FORCE.
I DISAGREE WITH THE FORCE, I
CANNOT HONESTLY STATE THAT RACE
PLAYED A FACTOR.
>> KIMBERLY?
>> I HAVE TO SAY THAT WHEN WE
LOOK AT MASS SHOOTERS AND SCHOOL
SHOOTERS AND THE AMOUNT OF THEM
THAT HAVE BEEN TAKEN ALIVE,
WITHOUT BEING KILLED, DYLAN
ROOF --
>> DID RACE PLAY A ROLE IN THIS?
>> IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IF THIS
PERSON THAT IS DOING THE
SHOOTING HAS BEEN WHITE IN THE
PAST, HE IS TAKEN ALIVE.
TOO MANY TIMES I'VE SEEN UNARMED
AND LIKE LAQUAN BLACK PEOPLE
THAT ARE NOT TAKEN ALIVE.
SO IS THAT ABOUT RACE?
>> ROOF, YOU GAVE ANOTHER
EXAMPLE OF A GUY WHO KILLED ALL
THESE PEOPLE, PULLED OVER BY THE
POLICE AND PUTS HIS HANDS OUT
THE WINDOW AND GIVES UP.
HAD LAQUAN DONE THAT COMPLIANCE
IS SO IMPORTANT WE HAVE TO PUT
RESPONSIBILITY IN THE COMMUNITY
AND IN THE OFFENDERRERS AND STOP
REWARDING THEM FOR BAD BEHAVIOR.
>> I DON'T THINK THAT HIM BEING
KILLED WAS A REWARD FOR HIS BAD
BEHAVIOR.
[INAUDIBLE]
>> I THINK THAT.
>> WAS HE BREAKING THE LAW?
WAS HE HIGH ON DRUGS?
IS THAT GOOD BEHAVIOR?
>> BRIAN, I'M NOT --
I DON'T WANT TO VOLLEY WITH YOU
ON THAT LEVEL.
WHAT I'M SAYING TO YOU IS
THIS...
INDIVIDUAL POLICE OFFICERS THAT
THE MAKE THE DECISION TO USE
DEADLY FORCE HAVE TO HAVE
EXHAUSTED ALL OTHER MEASURES.
>> AND THAT IS WHERE WE'RE GOING
TO STOP THE CONVERSATION FOR
NOW.
BUT THIS CONVERSATION WILL
CONTINUE.
AND WE HAVE A SENTENCE YET TO
SEE.
AND MUCH MORE TO DISCUSS AND WE