ARABIA.
>> PHIL, IT IS WHAT IT IS.
THAT'S WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID
THIS AFTERNOON ABOUT THE MURDER
OF DISSIDENT SAUDI JOURNALIST
JAMAL KHASHOGGI HIS COMMENTS
COME AFTER THE C.I.A. CONCLUDED
THAT THE CROWN PRINCE OF SAUDI
ARABIA, MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN
ORDERED JAMAL KHASHOGGI KILLING
IN INSTAN BULL.
UNDER PRESSURE TO TAKE ACTIONS
AGAINST THE SAUDI REGIME
PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD THIS TO SAY
TODAY.
>> THEY ARE BUYING HUNDREDS OF
BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF
THINGS FROM THIS COUNTRY.
IF I SAY WE DON'T WANT TO TAKE
YOUR BUSINESS, IF I SAY WE ARE
GOING TO CUT IT OFF, THEY WILL
GET THE EQUIPMENT, MILITARY
EQUIPMENT AND OTHER THINGS FROM
RUSSIA AND CHINA.
RIGHT NOW WE HAVE OIL PRICES IN
GREAT SHAPE.
I'M NOT GOING TO DESTROY THE
WORLD ECONOMY AND I'M NOT GOING
TO DESTROY THE ECONOMY FOR OUR
COUNTRY BY BEING FOOLISH WITH
SAUDI ARABIA.
IT'S ABOUT AMERICA FIRST.
>> MEANWHILE U.S. SECRETARY OF
STATE, MIKE POMPEO ALSO RAISED
SOME EYEBROWS TODAY CHALKING UP
THE MURDER TO A MEAN, NASTY
WORLD OUT THERE.
HERE WAS LOCAL PERSPECTIVE ARE
CECILE SHEA, A SPECIALIST ON
GLOBAL SECURITY AND DIPLOMACY AT
THE CHICAGO COUNCIL ON GLOBAL
AFFAIRS AND SPENT TWO DECADES AS
A U.S. DIPLOMAT INCLUDING
SERVICE IN EUROPE, ASIA AND THE
MIDDLE EAST.
AND KHALIL MARRAN A PROFESSOR
WHOSE EXPERTISE INCLUDES THE
POLITICS OF THE MIDDLE EAST.
THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.
CECILE SHEA SOMETHING ELSE THE
PRESIDENT SAID WAS THAT THE U.S.
WILL REMAIN A STEADFAST PARTNER
OF SAUDI ARABIA IS THE PRESIDENT
ACTING IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF
THE UNITED STATES?
>> I DON'T THINK THAT HE IS.
SAUDI ARABIA HAS BEEN A
PROBLEMATIC COUNTRY FOR DECADES
SOME WOULD SAY A BETTER PART OF
A CENTURY AND WE HAVE BEEN
WILLING TO LOOK THE OTHER WAY
WHILE THEY EXPORTED THEIR REALLY
PROBLEMATIC TYPE OF ISLAM
EXTREMIST, REMEMBER THAT MOST OF
THE 9/11 HIJACKERS WERE SAUDI
CITIZENS.
SAUDIS HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN
TERROR ATTACKS AGAINST THE
UNITED STATES IN SAUDI ARABIA
AND IN AFRICA.
AND WE CHOSE TO IGNORE IT.
WE'VE CHOSEN TO IGNORE SAUDIS
EXTREME HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES IN
YEMEN WHICH LED TO THE GREATEST
HUMANITARIAN CRISIS FACING THE
GLOBE RIGHT NOW.
AND THE PRESIDENT'S STATEMENT
TODAY HE BLAMED THE PROBLEMS IN
YEMEN ON IRAN AND THAT IS
DISINGENUOUS, THE SAUDIS ARE
BEHIND THIS AND THEY HAVE A
HIDEOUS HUMAN RIGHTS RECORD AT
HOME AND WE HAVE BEEN WILLING TO
LOOK AWAY BECAUSE WE NEEDED
THEIR OIL AND WHAT IS GOING ON
NOW WE ARE NOT AS DE3E7BDENT ON
SAUDI OIL ANYMORE.
>> KHALIL MARRAN SOMETHING ELSE
WHEN ASKED WHETHER MOHAMMED BIN
SALMAN WAS BEHIND THE KILLING HE
SAID MAYBE HE DID IT, MAYBE HE
DIDN'T.
AND THE CROWN PRINCE HAS BEEN
THE FOCUS OF THIS INVESTIGATION
AND WHETHER HE WAS BEHIND IT.
BUT WOULD HE HAVE ACTED
UNILATERALLY?
>> I MEAN DEPENDS WHAT WE MEAN
BY UNILATERALLY.
I DON'T THINK THAT THE CROWN
PRINCE HAD TO ASK FOR PERMISSION
IF THAT IS THE QUESTION.
IF THE QUESTION, HOWEVER, IS DID
THE UNITED STATES AND SAUDI
ARABIA CONSPIRE TO KILL HIS
JOURNALIST, I SAY NO.
BUT YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO
REMEMBER THIS IS THE SAME
PRESIDENT THAT HAS CALLED
JOURNALISTS LIKE YOURSELF
ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE.
AND THE RHETORIC THAT TRUMP AS
ENGAGED IN HAS BEEN DANGEROUS,
INDEED.
NOT TO MENTION UPENDING THE
ENTIRE INTERNATIONAL ORDER UPON
WHICH WE RELIED FOR MANY, MANY,
MANY YEARS SINCE THE SECOND
WORLD WAR.
NOT TO VIOLATE HUMAN RIGHTS AND
TO RESPECT THE FUNDAMENTAL
PRINCIPLE OF THE FREEDOM OF THE
PRESS AND SPEECH.
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT IS GOING
ON INSIDE THE SAUDI ARABIA.
IT MATTERS MUCH MORE THAT THE
UNITED STATES SETS A POSITIVE
TONE, A TONE THAT IS AFFIRMATIVE
OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND NOT OPPOSED
TO IT.
>> AS CECILE SHEA SAID AT THIS
POINT, THE UNITED STATES IS NOT
AS RELIANT ON SAUDI OIL AS IT
ONCE WAS.
SO AS IT STANDS NOW, WHO IS MORE
RELIANT ON WHO AT THIS POINT?
THE UNITED STATES TO SAUDI
ARABIA OR THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
>> I AGREE WITH CECILE SHEA.
THAT THE UNITED STATES IN
PARTICULAR IS NOT DEPENDENT AS
IT ONCE WERE ON SAUDI OIL.
AND THAT IS RELATIVE.
WE HAVE TO THINK IN TERMS OF
ABSOLUTE IN ABSOLUTE TERMS.
IT'S ALL THE SAME POT THE SAME
OIL MARKETS ALL THE SAME OIL
BEING TRADED.
AND THEREFORE WE CANNOT LOOK AT
THE RELATIONSHIP AS BEING ONE OF
ONLY THE UNITED STATES DEPENDING
ON SAUDIS.
A LOT OF PEOPLE MIGHT REMEMBER
THE EMBARGO IN 1973.
THE SAUDIS ARE NOT CAPABLE OF
THE SAME ACTION BUT I FEAR GIVEN
THAT SAUDI ARABIA IS THE WORLD'S
PREEMPTNENT OIL PRODUCER THAT
YES, THE UNITED STATES DOES NEED
SAUDI ARABIA IN ORDER TO HAVE A
STABLE GLOBAL ECONOMY.
YOU CANNOT HAVE THAT WITHOUT
STABLE OIL PRICES.
>> DOES THE UNITED STATES NEED
SAUDI ARABIA TO HAVE A STABLE
MIDDLE EAST?
>> CECILE SHEA?
>> I WOULD ARGUE THAT SAUDI
ARABIA IS AN AENACT MA TO A
STABLE MIDDLE EAST.
THEIR ACTIONS OF EXPORTING
2345UD GNAWED.
THEY HAVE WITHIN
THEY HAVE BEEN AN UNHELPFUL
PARTY IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF
ISLAM AROUND THE WORLD.
AND MADE THE U.S. MORE
DANGEROUS.
THEY HAVE BEEN PROBLEMATIC FOR
OUR OWN NATIONAL SECURITY AND WE
SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN IGNORING IT
FOR DECADES AND NOT IGNORING IT
NOW.
>> AND THE QUESTION IS WHETHER
THERE IS TRUTH IN THE AMOUNT OF
MONEY THAT SAUDI ARABIA HAS
PLEDGED TO BUY ARMMENTS FROM THE
UNITED STATES THE PRESIDENT SAID
410 BILLION TO 450 BILLION AND
MOST SAY THAT IT DOESN'T
APPROACH ANYWHERE NEAR THAT AND
MOST CONTRACTS WILL NEVER BE
FULFILLED?
>> EDDIE IT'S $15 BILLION WHICH
IS A GOOD CHUNK OF CHANGE AND WE
SHOULDN'T BURN OUR BRIDGES WHEN
IT COMES TO 15 BILLION DOLLARS.
BUT, I DON'T LIKE LISTEN TO
ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, I THINK
THE UNITED STATES NEEDS SAUDI
ARABIA THAT IT IS IN OUR
STRATEGIC AND NATIONAL INTEREST
TO DEPEND ON SAUDI ARABIA AND I
SOMEWHAT DISAGREE WITH CECILE
SHEA AND THE POINT SHE IS MAKING
IS LEGITIMATE AND THEY HAVE BEEN
FUELING ISLAMISMS AND THEISMS
AND WE MUST HAVE A MEMORY LOOK
AT 1979, THE YEAR THAT TURNED
SAUDI ARABIA IN THE STATE THAT
WE KNOW IT TODAY.
IF ANYTHING, THE CROWN PRINCE IS
MOVING AWAY FROM THAT BRINK.
HE LIKE STABILIZING SAUDI ARABIA
AND SORT OF LIKE MODERATING THE
RADICAL ISLAM.
SAUDI ARABIA HAS RIGHTLY SO BEEN
ACCUSED OF DOING.
BUT THE IRANIAN INFLUENCE AS
WELL.
IN 1979 IRAN HAS A REVOLUTION
WHERE THEY ARE EXPORTING SHI'ITE
EXTREMISM NOT AROUND THE MIDDLE
EAST BUT AROUND THE WORLD.
>> THE QUESTION IS AT THIS
POINT, IS THERE A MORAL
PREROGATIVE IN CANCELING THE
CONTRACTS?
AND SANCTIONING THE SAUDIS?
WHAT DO YOU THINK CECILE SHEA?
>> WELL, I THINK THERE SHOULD BE
A DEBATE ON WHAT WE SHOULD DO
ABOUT THE CONTRACTS.
WE SHOULD HAVE A LOT MORE
KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WHAT THE WEAPONS
ARE.
AND WEAPON SALES TO ANY COUNTRY
ARE SUPPOSED TO BE APPROVED BY
THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND THE
DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE AND
CONGRESS WOULD NORMALLY HAVE A
SAY AND WE NEED TO ASK OURSELVES
AS WE DO WITH WEAPONS SALES
BUT --
>> RELATED TO THIS INCIDENT THIS
MURDER, THE C.I.A. DETERMINED
THAT THE CROWN PRINCE AND
POSSIBLY HIS INNER CIRCLE OR THE
WIDER CIRCLE WERE BEHIND THE
MURDER.
THE PRESIDENT HAS CHOSEN NOT TO
GO BY THAT FINDING S THERE A
MORAL STANDING THAT THE
PRESIDENT SHOULD BE TAKING
RATHER THAN AN ECONOMIC ONE?
>> I THINK THERE IS A MORAL
STANDING.
I THINK THAT THE WORLD IS
WATCHING HOW WE'RE GOING TO
REACT.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT SIZE OF THE
SANCTIONS THEY SHOULD BE OR WHAT
FORM THEY SHOULD TAKE BUT I
THINK THERE IS SUCH WIDESPREAD
AND BIPARTISAN CRITICISM OF THE
ACTION --
>> INCLUDING FROM SENATOR
LINDSEY GRAHAM THAT HE HAS
BIPARTISAN SUPPORT FOR
SANCTIONS.
>> AND YEMEN, THE HORROR THAT IS
GOING ON WITH THE CHILDREN
STARVING TO DEATH AND TENS OF
THOUSANDS OF CIVILIAN
CASUALTIES.
I THINK IT'S TIME FOR ACTION.
WHAT THE ACTION SHOULD BE?
I AM AHE NOT PREPARED TO SAY.
AND IN PART BECAUSE WE DON'T
UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING ABOUT THE
ARMS SALES.
>> KHALIL MARRAN, DO YOU BELIEVE
THE C.I.A.'S FINDINGS THAT THE
CROWN PRINCE AND PERHAPS A WIDER
CIRCLE OF SAUDI OFFICIALS WERE
BEHIND THE MURDER?
>> IT'S COMMON SENSE.
NOTHING HAPPENS IN TERMS OF
SAUDI FOREIGN POLICY WITHOUT THE
CROWN PRINCE.
>> WHAT IS THE REACTION DO YOU
THINK FROM THE REST OF THE
MIDDLE EAST OR THE REST OF THE
WORLD TO OUR FOREIGN POLICY WHEN
THE PRESIDENT HAS CHOSEN TO
IGNORE THAT FINDING?
>> IT IS A THANK YOU FROM THE
AUTO CONTRACTS AND DICTATORS AND
MONARCHS.
YOU HAVE TURKEY CRYING CROCODILE
TEARS ABOUT A MURDERED
JOURNALIST WHEN THEY HAVE THEIR
OWN COUNTLESS JOURNALISTS THAT
ARE JAILED AND IMPRISONED FOR
DOING LESLIE HINDMAN AUCTIONEERS
BRAVE IN HINDSIGHT NOW I SAY
THIS THAN WHAT JAMAL KHASHOGGI
WAS DOING.
>> SO, IT ALSO BRINGS UP THE
ISSUE OF WHAT PERSONAL INTEREST
THE PRESIDENT MIGHT HAVE.
HE SAYS HE HAS NO FINANCIAL TIES
IN SAUDI ARABIA.
WHEN THAT IS NOT EXACTLY TRUE.
THE SAUDIS HAVE BAILED HIM OUT
OF A NUMBER OF ISSUES WHEN HE
HAS HAD FINANCIAL PROBLEMS.
THEY BOUGHT THE 45TH FLOOR OF
THE TRUMP WORLD TOWER IN NEW
YORK TO THE TO BE CONFUSED WITH
THE TRUMP TOWER ANOTHER PART OF
MANHATTAN AND THE QUESTION ABOUT
WHAT INTEREST HIS SON-IN-LAW,
JARED KUSHNER MIGHT HAVE.
DO YOU THINK THIS IS FACTORING
INTO HIS DECISION?
>> I WORRY IT'S FACTORING INTO
HIS DECISION.
THE FACT THAT NEITHER JARED
KUSHNER NOR THE PRESIDENT WOULD
BE ABLE TO GET ANY OTHER JOB IN
THE U.S. GOVERNMENT BECAUSE OF
THE COMPLEX DEALINGS AND THE
LARGE AMOUNT OF DEBT THEY HOLD.
IT'S PROBLEMATIC WHEN KUSHNER IS
DEALING WITH CHINA OR SAUDI
ARABIA KNOWING HIS FAMILY IS
DESPERATE FOR AN INFUSION OF
CAPITAL INTO THE REAL ESTATE
EMPIRE.
BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT SEEN HIS TAX
RETURNS AND HE HAS NOT BEEN
FORTHCOMING WITH HIS DEALINGS WE
DON'T KNOW WHAT PRESIDENT
TRUMP'S PAST OR PRESENT DEALINGS
ARE WITH SAUDI ARABIA AND WE
DON'T KNOW WHAT FUTURE IDEAS HE
HAS ABOUT SAUDI ARABIA.
AND THE AMOUNT OF CAPITAL THAT
HE MAY HOPE TO GAIN FROM THAT
COUNTRY.
SO, YES, IT'S REALLY
PROBLEMATIC.
>> WE SAW PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE
CROWN PRINCE.
ONE OF THEM WAS WHEN HE DID HIS
GRAND TOUR OF THE UNITED STATES
EARLIER THIS YEAR WHERE HE MET
NOT ONLY WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP
BUT WITH THE FORMER PRESIDENTS
BUSH AND A LOT OF CELEBRITIES
AND MET WITH BUSINESS LEADERS.
DOES THIS CHANGE THE U.S.
RELATIONSHIP WITH SAUDI ARABIA
EVEN IF PRESIDENT TRUMP DOESN'T
WANT IT TO CHANGE?
>> I DON'T THINK SO.
I MEAN, THE PRESIDENT IS THE
DECIDER IN CHIEF.
CONGRESS IS NOT ABLE TO ACT IN
THE WAY THAT ANYBODY WAS
OUTRAGED ABOUT THE JAMAL
KHASHOGGI MURDER WANTS THEM TO
ACT.
CONGRESS IS LIMITED.
THE PRESIDENT IS THE DECIDER IN
CHIEF AND THE PRESIDENT IS GOING
TO SET THE TONE AND HE HAS SET
THE TONE AND IT'S NOT LOOKING
GOOD.
LISTEN WHEN NBS CAME HERE AND
DID THE TOUR HE HAD MEDIA
INTERVIEWS.
AND IF FOLKS LOOK AT THE
INTERVIEWS THEY WILL NOTICE
EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT
NOW.
FREEDOM WITHIN LIMITS.
THERE IS AN OLD SLOGAN AT THE
SAUDIS LOVE TO SORT OF TALK
ABOUT.
AND OR EXPRESS.
AND THAT SLOGAN IS PROGRESS
WITHOUT CHANGE.
>> SO CECILE SHEA WHAT DO YOU
BELIEVE WILL CHANGE FROM HERE?
THIS HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST
SIGNIFICANT FOREIGN POLICY
DETERMINATIONS COMING OUT OF
THIS ADMINISTRATION.
AND THESE NEXT TWO YEARS OF HIS
TERM, WHAT WILL CHANGE IF
ANYTHING BECAUSE OF THIS?
>> WELL, I THINK TWO OR THREE
THINGS.
FIRST, THE ONE THING THAT IS
CLEAR IS THAT NBS IS NOT THE
BRILLIANT POLITICIAN.
HE IS UNSOPHISTICATED HE IS
SHOCKED THAT MURDERING AN
EMPLOYEE OF THE MOST RICHEST MAN
IN THE WORLD, JAMAL KHASHOGGI
WORKED FOR JEFF BEES SO, SOME
BEZOS AND SOME ON ON CAPITOL
HILL HAD FRIENDS IN THE SENATE
AND THE HOUSE WAS A JOURNALIST
THAT HE SEEMED SHOCKED THAT
ANYONE WOULD HAVE CARED ABOUT
THIS.
>> THE FOREIGN POLICY COMING OUT
OF THIS ADMINISTRATION.
>> I THINK WE WILL SEE LESS
SPACE IN NBF AND START LOOKING
FOR PEOPLE IN THE HOUSE OF SAUD