>>THAT GAS STATION OWNER IN THE
SOUTH BECOMES A STRONG ADVOCATE
FOR GROWN
ENERGY.
JOE BIDEN TURNED
LOBBYIST WHO
SAYS THE SYSTEM IS
HOPE WEATHERS
WEATHERS CORRUPT.
THEIR STORIES DOCUMENT WHAT
AUTHOR GEORGE
PACKER SAYS IS
A
DISSOLUTION OF AMERICAN
INSTITUTIONS.
HIS
LATEST BOOK IS
THE
UNWINDING
OF THE NEW
AMERICA AND HE'S A
STAFF WRITER FOR THE NEW
YORKER
AND GEORGE JOINS US
NOW.
WELCOME.
>>THE BOOK IS ALLED THE
UNWINDING.
WHAT IS
COMING UN-DONE?
>>I
THINK IT'S
A DEAL THAT USED
TO EXIST BETWEEN AMERICANS THAT
IF YOU DID
YOUR
PART
AND SORT OF
PLAYED BY THE
RULES
AND MADE
SURE YOUR CHILDREN HAD A BETTER
CHANCE THAN YOU DID, THERE WOULD
BE A PLACE FOR YOU IN
SOCIETY
AND OBVIOUSLY THAT LEFT OUT A
LOT
OF
PEOPLE IN THE PAST BUT
THE CIRCLE
WIDENED BUT IN THE
LAST GENERATION,
IT'S BECOME
MORE AND
MORE UNEQUAL.
INEQUALITY IS SO
RAM PAN, IT'S
AT 20S
LEVEL,
GATSBY
REVISITED.
AT THE SAME TIME, THE STRUCTURES
THAT USED TO
SUPPORT THE
ASPIRATIONS OF ORDINARY PEOPLE
IN GOVERNMENT,
BANKING, CORE
IRAQ, MEDIA,
SCHOOLS HAVE
ERODED
TO PEOPLE ARE MORE AND MORE
ALL
ALONE AND THAT'S WHAT
I FOUND
WHEN I WENT TO MEET THE PEOPLE
AND WRITE THE STORIES THAT MAKE
UP THE
UN-WIEBDING.
>>BEFORE WE GET TO THAT, WHAT
IS BEHIND THIS UNWINDING?
WHAT IS BEHIND
THIS
DISSOLUTION
OF THE STRUCTURES THAT CREATE A
CENTER THAT MOST PEOPLE COULD
RELATE TO?
>>I THINK
IN
THOSE '70'S,
THERE
WAS A TURBULENCE IN THE
ECONOMY
AND THINGS WOULD SHAKE
THEMSELVES
OUT.
DEINDUSTRIALIZATION TOOK AWAY
THE GUARANTEE OF
A
DECENT-PAYING
BLUE
COLLAR JOB,
INCLUDING
AROUND HERE.
AND AT THE SAME
TIME, BUSINESSES
AND BANKS BEGAN TO
WANT TO SHAKE
THEMSELVES
LOOSE FROM THE SORT
OF COMPACT THAT
EXISTS BETWEEN
BUSINESS LABOR AND
GOVERNMENT IN
THE POSTWAR
PERIOD.
THEY BEGAN TO SPEND A LOT OF
MONEY ON
LOBBYING.
WASHINGTON BECAME A
BIG-MONEY
CITY THAT
LOBBYISTS MORE AND
MORE SEEMED
TO CONTROL AND IN A
SENSE IT HAPPENED BECAUSE IT
COULD, BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE ABLE
TO CHANGE THE NORMS AND
RULES FS
BEHAVIOR.
WHAT WAS
UN-THINK TABLE, 50
OR
40 YEARS AGO, A CSM . O
GIVING
HIMSELF A BIG
RAISE WHILE LAYING
OFF 20% OF HIS WORK FORCE
IS
NOW THE NORMAL WAY OF DOING
BUSINESS.
SO PARTLY IT'S
TABOOS WERE
BROKEN AND ONCE THAT HAPPENED,
IT'S HARD TO RESTORE
THEM.
>>YOUR BOOK PROFILES
A
HANDFUL
OF AMERICANS AND TO ILLUSTRATE
SOME OF THIS, THERE ARE
STRUGGLES IN RECENT YEAR,
HOW
DID YOU CHOOSE YOUR
SUBJECTS?
>>I WAS LOOKING FOR
AMERICANS
WHO, FIRST OF ALL, WERE WILLING
TO LET ME HANG OUT WITH THEM
FOR
A LONG TIME BECAUSE TO DO THIS
REPORTING AND WRITING, I HAD
TO
SPEND WEEKS WITH MY
SUBJECTS AND
THAT'S ASKING A LOT.
PEOPLE WHO LIKE TO
TALK ABOUT
THEIR OWN
LIVES AND KNEW HOW TO
DO
IT AND PEOPLE WHO'S
LIVES
MOVED TO THE PULSE OF HISTORY IN
THIS GENERATION.
THE BOOK FOLLOWS THESE
CHARACTERS FROM THE
LATE '70S
UNTIL TODAY, CUTTING BETWEEN
THEIR STORIES.
I WAS LOOKING FOR PEOPLE WHO
LIVED OUT THEIR ADULT LIVES
IN
THIS
PERIOD AND WHOSE
CAREERS
AND IDEAS
AND EVEN PERSONAL
LIVES WERE SHAPED BY
THINGS
LIKE
DEREGULATION AND THE DECLINE OF
MANUFACTURING AND THE
RISE OF
THE INFORMATION AGE.
SO IT TOOK
A CERTAIN KIND OF
PERSON TO MEET ALL OF THOSE
CRITERIA AND I FOUND THEM.
>>THE BOOK OPENS AND CLOSESES
WITH A MAN
NAMED DEAN PRICE THAT
GROUP UP IN NORTH CAROLINA.
HE
STARTED A CHAIN OF GAS
STATIONS BUT MOVED
INTO
SOMETHING ELSE.
>>HE LVED IN RURAL NORTH
CAROLINA, A
VERY CONSERVATIVE
AREA, AND
OWNED TRUCK
STOPS WITH
FAST FOOD
RESTAURANTS AND FOUND
WAL-MART AND BIG OIL
AND
MULTINATIONAL COMPANIES WERE
SQUEEZING HIM OUT AND SQUEEZING
OUT THE LIFE,
REALLY, OF THE
ECONOMIES OF THESE LITTLE
TOWNS.
AND
HE
FINALLY HAD
AN
EPIPHANY.
THIS IS
A VERY
SPIRITUAL MAN
AND
HE HAD A
N EPIPHANY THAT THE
ANSWER TO THE
FALL OF THE
COUNTRYSIDE WHERE HE
LIVED,
LAY
RIGHT NEEM HIS
FEET,
CANOLA
SEEDS, WASTE OIL FROM
RESTAURANTS, THE MOST HUMBLE
THINGS OF DAILY LIFE COULD
BE
CONVERTED
INTO BIO
DIESEL.
HIS MISSION
IS T
O GET ALL OF TH
E
PUBLIC SCHOOL
BUSES IN NORTH
CAROLINA TO SAVE MONEY AND
THE
ENVIRONMENT AND TO MAKE HIS OWN
FORTUNE.
>>IT'S A REAL AMERICAN STORY.
>>HOW IS THAT EXPERIMENT
GOING
FOR HIM?
>>HE'S HAD A HARD TIME OF
IT.
HE'S HAD TO DOE
CLEAR PERSON
BANKRUPTCY, BUSINESS BANKRUPTCY.
HE HAD A
CLOSED LOOP
GAS STATION
THAT
SOLD BIO
BEEZLE TO
TRUCKS.
HIS PARTNERSHIP BROKE UP.
HE HAD LOW MOMENTED AND I
THINK
HE ALMOST QUIT BUT HE WAS
STUDENTED BY THIS AMERICAN
FAITH
IN HIS OWN ABILITY TO SHAPE
HIS
DESTINY WITHOUT THE STRUCTURE
THAT USED TO
SUPPORT MIDDLE
CLASS LIFE.
SO HE IS
STILL GOING AROUND
NORTH CAROLINA LIKE A
JOHNNY
APPLE SEED TRYING
TO CONVERT
SCHOOL
BOARDS AWND COUNT
COMMISSIONS.
>>BACK TO THE ISSUE OF
THE
DIS-LUGGAGES TO THESE
INSTITUTIONS AND STRUCTURES THAT
USED TO HOLE PEOPLE
TOGETHER,
USED TO CREATE A CENTER,
WAS
THERE DISSOLUTION
CAUSED BY MELT
OR THE EVOLUTION OF
IDEAS?
>>I THINK
IT WAS MASSIVE
FORCES,
GLOBALIZATION IS
ONE,
THE INFORMATION AGE, WHICH
HAS
LAID WASTE TO
THE SIX NUMBES,
THAT USED TO BE AMONG THE
PILLARS OF EVERY COMMUNITY IN
THIS COUNTRY.
AND IT USED TO GIVE
A KIND OF
COHESION TO LIFE.
PEOPLE HAD DEEP
POLITICAL
DISAGREEMENTS AND HATED EACH
OTHER BUT THEY WERE
STARTING
FROM A COMMON SET OF FACTS
PRESENTED BY TIME MAGAZINE O
R
WALTER CHRON CIT ON THE
CBS
EVENING NEWS.
WE NOW LIVE IN THIS
AGE WHERE
EVERYTHING IS
ITEMIZED AND
EVERYONE HAS
TO
BE AN
ENTREPRENEUR AND MAKE THEMSELVES
OVER BECAUSE THERE'S NO SUCH
THING AS A SECURE JOB.
IN THIS
TURBULENCE, THERE'S A
LOT OF INSECURITY AND A LOT
OF
PEOPLE GET LEFT BEHIND BECAUSE
IT'S NOT EASY TO
NAVIGATE THESE
REALLY ROUGH
WATERS.
>>OTHER PIECES HAVE TO DO WITH
CELEBRITIES LIKE OPRAH AND YOU
WRITE
THAT OUR AGE
IS,
QUOTE,
LOUSY WITH CELEBRITIES.
WHAT'S WRONG WITH CELEBRITIES?
>>I LIKE CELEBRITIES AS
MUCH AS
ANY
AMERICAN,
ESPECIALLY
ATHLETES, BUT WHAT'S
WRONG, THEY
HAVE TAKEN THE PLACE OF OUR
INSTITUTIONS.
WE USED
TO HAVE
THRIEWFING
SCHOOL SYSTEMS.
WE HAD A THRIVING
BOOK CULTURE.
WE
HAD A GOOD
PUBLIC HEALTH
SYSTEM AND NOW,
WE
HAVE
MARK ZUM
BERG RESCUING THE
NEWER PUBLIC
SCHOOLS, OPRAH WINFREY R
ESCUING
BOOK PUBLISHING AND
BILL GATES
RESCUING PUBLIC HEALTH.
WHEN IT GETS
PERSONALIZED
AND
CONCENTRATED IN THE HAN OF AN
INDIVIDUAL, IT
BECOMES VERY
MARCURIAL, AND
BUREAUCRACY
CREATES A LEVEL PLAYING
FIELD
WHERE EVERYONE PLAYS BY THE SAME
RULES REGARDLESS OF TOUR STATION
IN LIFE.
ONCE THOSE COLLAPSE, MORE
AND
MORE, YOU'RE AT THE MERCY OF
WHO
YOU KNOW, WHICH IS THE
WORLD OF
OUR CELEBRITY ELITES WHO
LIVE
LIKE GODS WHO GET MORE
AND MORE
POWERFUL AND WE WORSHIP THEM
MORE AND MORE BECAUSE OF THE OLD
INSTITUTIONS THAT USED
TO
CHANNEL ORDINARY
PEOPLE'S AS
TEACHER PIR EIGHTS DON'T SEEM TO
WORK VERY WELL.
>>IS IT IS
CHANGE REGARDING
CELEBRITIES BECAUSE IN THE PAST
THERE WERE PEOPLE LIKE
ANDREW
CAR
CAR
CARNEGIE.
HAS THERE BEEN A SHIFT?
>>I
THINK
MODERN CELEBRITY
BEGAN IN
THE '20S WITH CINEMA
AND RADIO AND
ADVERTISING, BUT
IN THE PERIOD
I THINK O
F AS THE
ROOSEVELT
REPUBLIC, THERE WAS
JOE DEMAJ
JOE, PERRY
COMO BUT
THEY WERE THIS THEIR PLACE.
THEY HAD THEIR SESSION IN
PROBLEMS.
PEOPLE ROSE WITH
THEM.
NOW, THEY'RE THE MAIN NEAR
ACTIVITY.
THEY'RE WHAT FILLS THE
NEWS.
THEY'RE WHAT SHAPES NATIONAL
LIFE MORE
THAN THE
VOICES OF
ORDINARY PEOPLE.
AND I THINK IT IS A
REVERTING TO
SOMETHING OLDER, LIKE
THE
CARNEGIE
PERIOD.
IT'S NOT -- I
MEAN, IT
HAD IT'S
WONDERFUL THINGS LIKE TRAINS AND
LIBRARIES BUT IT WAS
AN UNEQUAL
AND FAIR AMERICA AND MY
FEELING
IS WE HAVE BECOME MORE LIKE
THAT
AMERICA AGAIN AND WE DON'T SEEM
TO BE TURNING AWAY FROM IT.
>>THE PREMISE OF THE BOOK IS
THE
UN-WHINING OF
INSTIETIONS.
ANY
OPTIMISM IS SPITE OF
THIS?
>>THE BOOK IS A BIG NEAR
ACTIVITY.
WHAT I WANTED TO DO WAS
CREATE
A
PAN
PANORAMIC PICTURE
FOLLOWING
THESE CHARACTERS.
SO IT ISN'T A BOOK OF
ARGUMENTS
AND POLICY
PROPOSALS.
THE HOPE I FIND
IS WHEN I'M
HANGING OUT WITH DEAN
PRICE, THE
BIO FUELS ENTREPRENEUR OR
TAMMY
THOMAS, WHO WORKED IN AUTO
PARTS
FACTORY IN
YOUNGSTOWN FOR 20
YEARS BEFORE LOSING HER JOB AND
REMAKING HERSELF
AS A COMMUNITY
ORGANIZER FOR
THE
LEX OF
PRESIDENT OBAMA.
THESE ARE RESILIENT
AND
CERTAINLY FROM GIVING UP, THEY
KEEP MAKING
NEWESTS BECAUSE THEY
SEE IF THEY DON'T T
RY, NOTHING
WILL DO IT FOR THEM.
THEY'RE ON THEIR OWN.
THEY ARE NOT
LEAVING.
THEY'RE STICKING IN THEIR
COMMUNITIES AND TRY TO
REVIVE
THEM.
YOU FIND END OF WHERE YOU GO
YOU
HAVE TO LOOK FOR THEM.
IT'S NOT IN THE
MEDIA BECAUSE
THEY'RE WOULD BEDAZZLED B
Y THE
POWER CENTERS AND WET BUT
IT'S
THERE AND IN THE
ABSENCE OF
STRUCTURAL CHANGE OR
INSTITUTIONAL SUPPORT, I THINK
THAT'S WHERE
I FIND
GLIMMERS OF
HOPE.
>>YOU ELUDED TO THE FACT THAT
ONE OF THE PEOPLE IN THE
PROFILE
WENT TO WORK FOR THE PRESIDENT'S
LEX.
TO WHAT EXTENT
TO ANY
PRESIDENT
HAVE CONTROL OF FORCES YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT?
>>I THINK LES AND
LES.
ROOSEVELT AND
REAGAN
WERE ABLE
TO SHAPE THE RHETORIC
AND THE
REALITY OF LIFE IN AMERICA
MORE
THAN PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS BEEN
ABLE TO.
HE WOULD HAVE BEEN,
I THINK, A
GREAT PRESIDENT AT A DIFT TIME,
BUT HE CAME INTO POWER
WITH THE
LEVERS OF POWER, NOT
REALLY
WORKING.
YOU COULD PULL ON IT WITH BUT
DOES IT RESPOND?
DOES THE SENATE ALLOW YOU TO
GET
LEGISLATION THROUGH OR IS IT
BECAUSE OF THE ABUSE OF
THE
FILIBUSTER, THE LEAST DEMOCRATIC
BODY
IN ANY
DEMOCRACICY I'M
AWARE OF?
THE BANKS HAVE SUCH
POWER
ON
EXIL AND
CAPITOL
HILL AND THAT'S THE
STORY OF THE BIDEN AID WHO
WAS A
LOBBY UNFORTUNATE.
HE SAW
BETTER THAN ANYONE
HOW
WALL STREET HAD COME IN SOME
WAYS TO OWN WASHINGTON AND
IS
MUCH AS OBAMA TRIED
TO REFORM
THAT WITH LEGISLATION, IT JUST
SEEMS TO BE STRONGER
THAN A
PRESIDENT THESE
DAY.
THE PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW, THE
WHITE HOUSE HAS BEEN SORT
OF
ELIPSED BY THESE
MUCH
MORE
POWERFUL FORCES LIKE THE
INTERNET AND LIKE
CORPORATIONS
AND BANKS.
>>WHAT IS IT YOU WANT PEOPLE TO
TAKE AWAY FROM YOUR
BOOK?
>>I WANT THEM TO READ
IT WITH
THE PLEASURE OF
READING A
NOVELISTIC
WORK
OF HISTORY AND I
WANT THEM
TO SIMPLY FEEL
WHAT
IT'S LIKE TO HAVE
LIVED IN
AMERICA DURING THIS TIME,
TO SEE
WHERE WE'VE BEEN AND WHERE WE
ARE NOW.
I WANT
IT TO
BE A
MIRE PEOPLE
CAN LOOK INTO AND SAY, THIS IS
RIGHT.
IT DIDN'T DOESN'T ME EXACTLY
WHAT TO DO
BUT
IT SHOWS ME ONE
TRUTH ABOUT WHERE THE COUNTRY
IS
TODAY.
IF I'VE DONE THAT, I'VE
ACHIEVED
MY
AIM.
>>GEORGE PACKER, THANK YOU SO
MUCH FOR STOPPING B
Y.
>>MY PLEASURE.
>>AGAIN, THE BOOK IS THE
UN-WIEBDING AND INNER HISTORY OF
THE NEW AMERICA.
YOU CAN READ AN EXCERPT ON OUR
WEBSITE.
THERE'S MORE "CHICAGO TONIGHT"
IN A MOMENT SO PLEASE
STAY WITH
US.