>>THAT GAS STATION OWNER IN THE

SOUTH BECOMES A STRONG ADVOCATE

FOR GROWN

ENERGY.

JOE BIDEN TURNED

LOBBYIST WHO

SAYS THE SYSTEM IS

HOPE WEATHERS

WEATHERS CORRUPT.

THEIR STORIES DOCUMENT WHAT

AUTHOR GEORGE

PACKER SAYS IS

A

DISSOLUTION OF AMERICAN

INSTITUTIONS.

HIS

LATEST BOOK IS

THE

UNWINDING

OF THE NEW

AMERICA AND HE'S A

STAFF WRITER FOR THE NEW

YORKER

AND GEORGE JOINS US

NOW.

WELCOME.

>>THE BOOK IS ALLED THE

UNWINDING.

WHAT IS

COMING UN-DONE?

>>I

THINK IT'S

A DEAL THAT USED

TO EXIST BETWEEN AMERICANS THAT

IF YOU DID

YOUR

PART

AND SORT OF

PLAYED BY THE

RULES

AND MADE

SURE YOUR CHILDREN HAD A BETTER

CHANCE THAN YOU DID, THERE WOULD

BE A PLACE FOR YOU IN

SOCIETY

AND OBVIOUSLY THAT LEFT OUT A

LOT

OF

PEOPLE IN THE PAST BUT

THE CIRCLE

WIDENED BUT IN THE

LAST GENERATION,

IT'S BECOME

MORE AND

MORE UNEQUAL.

INEQUALITY IS SO

RAM PAN, IT'S

AT 20S

LEVEL,

GATSBY

REVISITED.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE STRUCTURES

THAT USED TO

SUPPORT THE

ASPIRATIONS OF ORDINARY PEOPLE

IN GOVERNMENT,

BANKING, CORE

IRAQ, MEDIA,

SCHOOLS HAVE

ERODED

TO PEOPLE ARE MORE AND MORE

ALL

ALONE AND THAT'S WHAT

I FOUND

WHEN I WENT TO MEET THE PEOPLE

AND WRITE THE STORIES THAT MAKE

UP THE

UN-WIEBDING.

>>BEFORE WE GET TO THAT, WHAT

IS BEHIND THIS UNWINDING?

WHAT IS BEHIND

THIS

DISSOLUTION

OF THE STRUCTURES THAT CREATE A

CENTER THAT MOST PEOPLE COULD

RELATE TO?

>>I THINK

IN

THOSE '70'S,

THERE

WAS A TURBULENCE IN THE

ECONOMY

AND THINGS WOULD SHAKE

THEMSELVES

OUT.

DEINDUSTRIALIZATION TOOK AWAY

THE GUARANTEE OF

A

DECENT-PAYING

BLUE

COLLAR JOB,

INCLUDING

AROUND HERE.

AND AT THE SAME

TIME, BUSINESSES

AND BANKS BEGAN TO

WANT TO SHAKE

THEMSELVES

LOOSE FROM THE SORT

OF COMPACT THAT

EXISTS BETWEEN

BUSINESS LABOR AND

GOVERNMENT IN

THE POSTWAR

PERIOD.

THEY BEGAN TO SPEND A LOT OF

MONEY ON

LOBBYING.

WASHINGTON BECAME A

BIG-MONEY

CITY THAT

LOBBYISTS MORE AND

MORE SEEMED

TO CONTROL AND IN A

SENSE IT HAPPENED BECAUSE IT

COULD, BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE ABLE

TO CHANGE THE NORMS AND

RULES FS

BEHAVIOR.

WHAT WAS

UN-THINK TABLE, 50

OR

40 YEARS AGO, A CSM . O

GIVING

HIMSELF A BIG

RAISE WHILE LAYING

OFF 20% OF HIS WORK FORCE

IS

NOW THE NORMAL WAY OF DOING

BUSINESS.

SO PARTLY IT'S

TABOOS WERE

BROKEN AND ONCE THAT HAPPENED,

IT'S HARD TO RESTORE

THEM.

>>YOUR BOOK PROFILES

A

HANDFUL

OF AMERICANS AND TO ILLUSTRATE

SOME OF THIS, THERE ARE

STRUGGLES IN RECENT YEAR,

HOW

DID YOU CHOOSE YOUR

SUBJECTS?

>>I WAS LOOKING FOR

AMERICANS

WHO, FIRST OF ALL, WERE WILLING

TO LET ME HANG OUT WITH THEM

FOR

A LONG TIME BECAUSE TO DO THIS

REPORTING AND WRITING, I HAD

TO

SPEND WEEKS WITH MY

SUBJECTS AND

THAT'S ASKING A LOT.

PEOPLE WHO LIKE TO

TALK ABOUT

THEIR OWN

LIVES AND KNEW HOW TO

DO

IT AND PEOPLE WHO'S

LIVES

MOVED TO THE PULSE OF HISTORY IN

THIS GENERATION.

THE BOOK FOLLOWS THESE

CHARACTERS FROM THE

LATE '70S

UNTIL TODAY, CUTTING BETWEEN

THEIR STORIES.

I WAS LOOKING FOR PEOPLE WHO

LIVED OUT THEIR ADULT LIVES

IN

THIS

PERIOD AND WHOSE

CAREERS

AND IDEAS

AND EVEN PERSONAL

LIVES WERE SHAPED BY

THINGS

LIKE

DEREGULATION AND THE DECLINE OF

MANUFACTURING AND THE

RISE OF

THE INFORMATION AGE.

SO IT TOOK

A CERTAIN KIND OF

PERSON TO MEET ALL OF THOSE

CRITERIA AND I FOUND THEM.

>>THE BOOK OPENS AND CLOSESES

WITH A MAN

NAMED DEAN PRICE THAT

GROUP UP IN NORTH CAROLINA.

HE

STARTED A CHAIN OF GAS

STATIONS BUT MOVED

INTO

SOMETHING ELSE.

>>HE LVED IN RURAL NORTH

CAROLINA, A

VERY CONSERVATIVE

AREA, AND

OWNED TRUCK

STOPS WITH

FAST FOOD

RESTAURANTS AND FOUND

WAL-MART AND BIG OIL

AND

MULTINATIONAL COMPANIES WERE

SQUEEZING HIM OUT AND SQUEEZING

OUT THE LIFE,

REALLY, OF THE

ECONOMIES OF THESE LITTLE

TOWNS.

AND

HE

FINALLY HAD

AN

EPIPHANY.

THIS IS

A VERY

SPIRITUAL MAN

AND

HE HAD A

N EPIPHANY THAT THE

ANSWER TO THE

FALL OF THE

COUNTRYSIDE WHERE HE

LIVED,

LAY

RIGHT NEEM HIS

FEET,

CANOLA

SEEDS, WASTE OIL FROM

RESTAURANTS, THE MOST HUMBLE

THINGS OF DAILY LIFE COULD

BE

CONVERTED

INTO BIO

DIESEL.

HIS MISSION

IS T

O GET ALL OF TH

E

PUBLIC SCHOOL

BUSES IN NORTH

CAROLINA TO SAVE MONEY AND

THE

ENVIRONMENT AND TO MAKE HIS OWN

FORTUNE.

>>IT'S A REAL AMERICAN STORY.

>>HOW IS THAT EXPERIMENT

GOING

FOR HIM?

>>HE'S HAD A HARD TIME OF

IT.

HE'S HAD TO DOE

CLEAR PERSON

BANKRUPTCY, BUSINESS BANKRUPTCY.

HE HAD A

CLOSED LOOP

GAS STATION

THAT

SOLD BIO

BEEZLE TO

TRUCKS.

HIS PARTNERSHIP BROKE UP.

HE HAD LOW MOMENTED AND I

THINK

HE ALMOST QUIT BUT HE WAS

STUDENTED BY THIS AMERICAN

FAITH

IN HIS OWN ABILITY TO SHAPE

HIS

DESTINY WITHOUT THE STRUCTURE

THAT USED TO

SUPPORT MIDDLE

CLASS LIFE.

SO HE IS

STILL GOING AROUND

NORTH CAROLINA LIKE A

JOHNNY

APPLE SEED TRYING

TO CONVERT

SCHOOL

BOARDS AWND COUNT

COMMISSIONS.

>>BACK TO THE ISSUE OF

THE

DIS-LUGGAGES TO THESE

INSTITUTIONS AND STRUCTURES THAT

USED TO HOLE PEOPLE

TOGETHER,

USED TO CREATE A CENTER,

WAS

THERE DISSOLUTION

CAUSED BY MELT

OR THE EVOLUTION OF

IDEAS?

>>I THINK

IT WAS MASSIVE

FORCES,

GLOBALIZATION IS

ONE,

THE INFORMATION AGE, WHICH

HAS

LAID WASTE TO

THE SIX NUMBES,

THAT USED TO BE AMONG THE

PILLARS OF EVERY COMMUNITY IN

THIS COUNTRY.

AND IT USED TO GIVE

A KIND OF

COHESION TO LIFE.

PEOPLE HAD DEEP

POLITICAL

DISAGREEMENTS AND HATED EACH

OTHER BUT THEY WERE

STARTING

FROM A COMMON SET OF FACTS

PRESENTED BY TIME MAGAZINE O

R

WALTER CHRON CIT ON THE

CBS

EVENING NEWS.

WE NOW LIVE IN THIS

AGE WHERE

EVERYTHING IS

ITEMIZED AND

EVERYONE HAS

TO

BE AN

ENTREPRENEUR AND MAKE THEMSELVES

OVER BECAUSE THERE'S NO SUCH

THING AS A SECURE JOB.

IN THIS

TURBULENCE, THERE'S A

LOT OF INSECURITY AND A LOT

OF

PEOPLE GET LEFT BEHIND BECAUSE

IT'S NOT EASY TO

NAVIGATE THESE

REALLY ROUGH

WATERS.

>>OTHER PIECES HAVE TO DO WITH

CELEBRITIES LIKE OPRAH AND YOU

WRITE

THAT OUR AGE

IS,

QUOTE,

LOUSY WITH CELEBRITIES.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH CELEBRITIES?

>>I LIKE CELEBRITIES AS

MUCH AS

ANY

AMERICAN,

ESPECIALLY

ATHLETES, BUT WHAT'S

WRONG, THEY

HAVE TAKEN THE PLACE OF OUR

INSTITUTIONS.

WE USED

TO HAVE

THRIEWFING

SCHOOL SYSTEMS.

WE HAD A THRIVING

BOOK CULTURE.

WE

HAD A GOOD

PUBLIC HEALTH

SYSTEM AND NOW,

WE

HAVE

MARK ZUM

BERG RESCUING THE

NEWER PUBLIC

SCHOOLS, OPRAH WINFREY R

ESCUING

BOOK PUBLISHING AND

BILL GATES

RESCUING PUBLIC HEALTH.

WHEN IT GETS

PERSONALIZED

AND

CONCENTRATED IN THE HAN OF AN

INDIVIDUAL, IT

BECOMES VERY

MARCURIAL, AND

BUREAUCRACY

CREATES A LEVEL PLAYING

FIELD

WHERE EVERYONE PLAYS BY THE SAME

RULES REGARDLESS OF TOUR STATION

IN LIFE.

ONCE THOSE COLLAPSE, MORE

AND

MORE, YOU'RE AT THE MERCY OF

WHO

YOU KNOW, WHICH IS THE

WORLD OF

OUR CELEBRITY ELITES WHO

LIVE

LIKE GODS WHO GET MORE

AND MORE

POWERFUL AND WE WORSHIP THEM

MORE AND MORE BECAUSE OF THE OLD

INSTITUTIONS THAT USED

TO

CHANNEL ORDINARY

PEOPLE'S AS

TEACHER PIR EIGHTS DON'T SEEM TO

WORK VERY WELL.

>>IS IT IS

CHANGE REGARDING

CELEBRITIES BECAUSE IN THE PAST

THERE WERE PEOPLE LIKE

ANDREW

CAR

CAR

CARNEGIE.

HAS THERE BEEN A SHIFT?

>>I

THINK

MODERN CELEBRITY

BEGAN IN

THE '20S WITH CINEMA

AND RADIO AND

ADVERTISING, BUT

IN THE PERIOD

I THINK O

F AS THE

ROOSEVELT

REPUBLIC, THERE WAS

JOE DEMAJ

JOE, PERRY

COMO BUT

THEY WERE THIS THEIR PLACE.

THEY HAD THEIR SESSION IN

PROBLEMS.

PEOPLE ROSE WITH

THEM.

NOW, THEY'RE THE MAIN NEAR

ACTIVITY.

THEY'RE WHAT FILLS THE

NEWS.

THEY'RE WHAT SHAPES NATIONAL

LIFE MORE

THAN THE

VOICES OF

ORDINARY PEOPLE.

AND I THINK IT IS A

REVERTING TO

SOMETHING OLDER, LIKE

THE

CARNEGIE

PERIOD.

IT'S NOT -- I

MEAN, IT

HAD IT'S

WONDERFUL THINGS LIKE TRAINS AND

LIBRARIES BUT IT WAS

AN UNEQUAL

AND FAIR AMERICA AND MY

FEELING

IS WE HAVE BECOME MORE LIKE

THAT

AMERICA AGAIN AND WE DON'T SEEM

TO BE TURNING AWAY FROM IT.

>>THE PREMISE OF THE BOOK IS

THE

UN-WHINING OF

INSTIETIONS.

ANY

OPTIMISM IS SPITE OF

THIS?

>>THE BOOK IS A BIG NEAR

ACTIVITY.

WHAT I WANTED TO DO WAS

CREATE

A

PAN

PANORAMIC PICTURE

FOLLOWING

THESE CHARACTERS.

SO IT ISN'T A BOOK OF

ARGUMENTS

AND POLICY

PROPOSALS.

THE HOPE I FIND

IS WHEN I'M

HANGING OUT WITH DEAN

PRICE, THE

BIO FUELS ENTREPRENEUR OR

TAMMY

THOMAS, WHO WORKED IN AUTO

PARTS

FACTORY IN

YOUNGSTOWN FOR 20

YEARS BEFORE LOSING HER JOB AND

REMAKING HERSELF

AS A COMMUNITY

ORGANIZER FOR

THE

LEX OF

PRESIDENT OBAMA.

THESE ARE RESILIENT

AND

CERTAINLY FROM GIVING UP, THEY

KEEP MAKING

NEWESTS BECAUSE THEY

SEE IF THEY DON'T T

RY, NOTHING

WILL DO IT FOR THEM.

THEY'RE ON THEIR OWN.

THEY ARE NOT

LEAVING.

THEY'RE STICKING IN THEIR

COMMUNITIES AND TRY TO

REVIVE

THEM.

YOU FIND END OF WHERE YOU GO

YOU

HAVE TO LOOK FOR THEM.

IT'S NOT IN THE

MEDIA BECAUSE

THEY'RE WOULD BEDAZZLED B

Y THE

POWER CENTERS AND WET BUT

IT'S

THERE AND IN THE

ABSENCE OF

STRUCTURAL CHANGE OR

INSTITUTIONAL SUPPORT, I THINK

THAT'S WHERE

I FIND

GLIMMERS OF

HOPE.

>>YOU ELUDED TO THE FACT THAT

ONE OF THE PEOPLE IN THE

PROFILE

WENT TO WORK FOR THE PRESIDENT'S

LEX.

TO WHAT EXTENT

TO ANY

PRESIDENT

HAVE CONTROL OF FORCES YOU'RE

TALKING ABOUT?

>>I THINK LES AND

LES.

ROOSEVELT AND

REAGAN

WERE ABLE

TO SHAPE THE RHETORIC

AND THE

REALITY OF LIFE IN AMERICA

MORE

THAN PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS BEEN

ABLE TO.

HE WOULD HAVE BEEN,

I THINK, A

GREAT PRESIDENT AT A DIFT TIME,

BUT HE CAME INTO POWER

WITH THE

LEVERS OF POWER, NOT

REALLY

WORKING.

YOU COULD PULL ON IT WITH BUT

DOES IT RESPOND?

DOES THE SENATE ALLOW YOU TO

GET

LEGISLATION THROUGH OR IS IT

BECAUSE OF THE ABUSE OF

THE

FILIBUSTER, THE LEAST DEMOCRATIC

BODY

IN ANY

DEMOCRACICY I'M

AWARE OF?

THE BANKS HAVE SUCH

POWER

ON

EXIL AND

CAPITOL

HILL AND THAT'S THE

STORY OF THE BIDEN AID WHO

WAS A

LOBBY UNFORTUNATE.

HE SAW

BETTER THAN ANYONE

HOW

WALL STREET HAD COME IN SOME

WAYS TO OWN WASHINGTON AND

IS

MUCH AS OBAMA TRIED

TO REFORM

THAT WITH LEGISLATION, IT JUST

SEEMS TO BE STRONGER

THAN A

PRESIDENT THESE

DAY.

THE PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW, THE

WHITE HOUSE HAS BEEN SORT

OF

ELIPSED BY THESE

MUCH

MORE

POWERFUL FORCES LIKE THE

INTERNET AND LIKE

CORPORATIONS

AND BANKS.

>>WHAT IS IT YOU WANT PEOPLE TO

TAKE AWAY FROM YOUR

BOOK?

>>I WANT THEM TO READ

IT WITH

THE PLEASURE OF

READING A

NOVELISTIC

WORK

OF HISTORY AND I

WANT THEM

TO SIMPLY FEEL

WHAT

IT'S LIKE TO HAVE

LIVED IN

AMERICA DURING THIS TIME,

TO SEE

WHERE WE'VE BEEN AND WHERE WE

ARE NOW.

I WANT

IT TO

BE A

MIRE PEOPLE

CAN LOOK INTO AND SAY, THIS IS

RIGHT.

IT DIDN'T DOESN'T ME EXACTLY

WHAT TO DO

BUT

IT SHOWS ME ONE

TRUTH ABOUT WHERE THE COUNTRY

IS

TODAY.

IF I'VE DONE THAT, I'VE

ACHIEVED

MY

AIM.

>>GEORGE PACKER, THANK YOU SO

MUCH FOR STOPPING B

Y.

>>MY PLEASURE.

>>AGAIN, THE BOOK IS THE

UN-WIEBDING AND INNER HISTORY OF

THE NEW AMERICA.

YOU CAN READ AN EXCERPT ON OUR

WEBSITE.

THERE'S MORE "CHICAGO TONIGHT"

IN A MOMENT SO PLEASE

STAY WITH

US.