WEBVTT 00:11.445 --> 00:12.613  - (female narrator)   Production funding for 00:12.613 --> 00:14.014  Behind the Headlines 00:14.014 --> 00:15.849  is made possible in part by: 00:15.849 --> 00:18.085  The WKNO Production Fund, 00:18.085 --> 00:20.220  The WKNO Endowment Fund, 00:20.220 --> 00:23.490  and by viewers like you.   Thank you. 00:23.490 --> 00:26.560 - Retiring Chief Public Defender Stephen Bush, 00:26.560 --> 00:28.528 tonight, on Behind the Headlines. 00:28.528 --> 00:33.200 [dramatic orchestral music] 00:46.413 --> 00:48.415 - I'm Eric Barnes, publisher of The Memphis Daily News, 00:48.415 --> 00:49.917 thanks for joining us. 00:49.917 --> 00:51.618 I am joined tonight by the Chief Public Defender 00:51.618 --> 00:53.787 for Shelby County, Stephen Bush. Thanks for being here again. 00:53.787 --> 00:55.622 - Thank you Eric, it's nice to be here. 00:55.622 --> 00:58.725 - Along with senior reporter, Bill Dries. 00:58.725 --> 01:00.961 You are retiring, you've announced your retirement, 01:00.961 --> 01:02.896 you're going to be in office a little bit longer. 01:02.896 --> 01:06.366 Talk about this process first, of retiring, 01:06.366 --> 01:10.504 the office is appointed by the Shelby County Mayor-- 01:10.504 --> 01:12.072 - That's right. 01:12.072 --> 01:13.574 - And confirmed by the County Commission. 01:13.574 --> 01:15.776 - In Shelby County, the responsibility of nominating 01:15.776 --> 01:17.744 a Chief Defender falls to the County Mayor, 01:17.744 --> 01:20.380 and has to be approved by the board of County Commissioners. 01:20.380 --> 01:22.616 - Ok, so you're not leaving anytime soon, 01:22.616 --> 01:24.518 you're going to wait until Lee Harris takes office, 01:24.518 --> 01:26.320 is that the plan? 01:26.320 --> 01:28.488 - Right, right. 01:28.488 --> 01:30.991 I made this announcement of my plans to step down before the 01:30.991 --> 01:35.262 election so that the incoming mayor would have enough time, 01:36.596 --> 01:40.867 and this would be a priority so we can get this selection right. 01:42.269 --> 01:45.005 - And you've been a public defender for 27 years? 01:45.005 --> 01:48.642 - Oh heavens, yes, for now more than half of my life. 01:48.642 --> 01:52.813 I'm 54 and I've been doing this work for 27 years. 01:52.813 --> 01:55.682 There's a pretty good argument to be made that no one should do 01:55.682 --> 01:58.485 the work of public defense for that long. 01:58.485 --> 02:03.090 So we've been looking forward to this transition for some time. 02:05.392 --> 02:07.094 - Yeah, and we'll talk more about that, 02:07.094 --> 02:09.096 we'll come back to some of the transition, 02:09.096 --> 02:10.731 and some of why you did this, but in that career, 02:10.731 --> 02:12.599 either as the Chief for the last eight years, 02:12.599 --> 02:15.902 or at any time, your best moment? 02:15.902 --> 02:18.071 Or a best moment-- - Oh gosh. 02:18.071 --> 02:20.107 - As a public defender. 02:20.107 --> 02:21.942 - There've been so many best moments. 02:21.942 --> 02:24.011 I never planned to be a public defender, 02:24.011 --> 02:26.213 and when former mayor, Chief Public Defender A.C. Wharton 02:26.213 --> 02:30.417 hired me, he wanted this long commitment of three years. 02:30.417 --> 02:32.052 Which seemed like an extraordinary 02:32.052 --> 02:33.987 long period of time. 02:33.987 --> 02:36.256 It's been a remarkable place to practice law, 02:36.256 --> 02:39.359 and to learn the craft, and to be a part of the community. 02:39.359 --> 02:42.963 It's been the honor of my life to serve as Chief Public 02:42.963 --> 02:46.333 Defender, and I'm deeply grateful for Mayor Luttrell for 02:46.333 --> 02:48.635 placing that trust in me. 02:48.635 --> 02:51.671 And we've done a lot of work over the last eight years too, 02:51.671 --> 02:56.009 to change a lot of things that needed to be improved so that 02:57.411 --> 03:00.080 the work of this hundred-year-old law firm is 03:00.080 --> 03:02.716 ready for its next generation of service. 03:02.716 --> 03:05.085 - What makes, I'm going to come back to my question, 03:05.085 --> 03:06.853 what makes a good moment? 03:06.853 --> 03:08.822 What makes a good day when you're the public defender. 03:08.822 --> 03:10.524 Because I think most people would think that it's probably 03:10.524 --> 03:12.359 rough moments, and rough days. 03:12.359 --> 03:13.727 - It is rough moments. 03:13.727 --> 03:15.462 You might think it's an acquittal, 03:15.462 --> 03:19.466 or that, but there's something about being able to do this work 03:19.466 --> 03:23.770 with people who are in a very difficult spot that when they 03:23.770 --> 03:26.673 feel and know that they've been treated with dignity and 03:26.673 --> 03:28.642 respect, and have the right advice to make the right 03:28.642 --> 03:31.244 decisions, whether it's a plea agreement, 03:31.244 --> 03:35.649 or going to trial, and to see that unfold day after day, 03:35.649 --> 03:38.752 that's what's rewarding about this work. 03:40.487 --> 03:42.889 - And then, lastly, then I'll turn to Bill, 03:42.889 --> 03:44.524 but worst moments. 03:44.524 --> 03:46.560 What are the really bad moments? 03:46.560 --> 03:50.130 - You know, it doesn't matter how good you are as a lawyer 03:50.130 --> 03:52.065 when you're under such an overwhelming, 03:52.065 --> 03:56.203 crushing case load, and you can't do what you need to do to 03:56.203 --> 03:58.905 meet your ethical requirements to your clients. 03:58.905 --> 04:01.041 That's been the experience in our office, 04:01.041 --> 04:02.776 and in many offices. 04:02.776 --> 04:05.078 Public defense is broken just about everywhere, 04:05.078 --> 04:07.948 particularly in the south, outside of the Federal system. 04:07.948 --> 04:10.517 And so the work we've done over the last eight years is to 04:10.517 --> 04:13.920 reposition and to do the change work to actually 04:14.387 --> 04:16.623 fix those things. 04:16.623 --> 04:18.758 One of the things we've been able to do that I'm proud of is 04:18.758 --> 04:21.161 increasing the funding for the office. 04:21.161 --> 04:24.731 We've gone from $7 million a year in recurring funding to $14 04:24.731 --> 04:26.833 over the last eight. 04:26.833 --> 04:29.202 And that's good, but what's really valuable about it is 04:29.202 --> 04:31.905 we've been able to begin to control work load, 04:31.905 --> 04:34.207 so that you actually can deliver high quality, 04:34.207 --> 04:37.677 uniform services to all of the people that we represent. 04:39.179 --> 04:40.847 - A case load is what? 04:40.847 --> 04:43.383 I said I'd go to Bill, but now, what is a case load? 04:43.383 --> 04:45.118 How do you measure that, is it a day, 04:45.118 --> 04:46.953 a year? - It's still high, too high, 04:46.953 --> 04:48.688 but it is manageable. 04:48.688 --> 04:50.690 It depends on the type of work you do. 04:50.690 --> 04:52.092 - But give people a perspective, are we talking hundreds, 04:52.092 --> 04:53.693 are we talking thousands, are we talking tens of thousands 04:53.693 --> 04:55.562 in a given year? 04:55.562 --> 04:57.531 - Still, hundreds of misdemeanors if that's the work 04:57.531 --> 05:00.133 that a lawyer is doing, fewer of course felonies. 05:00.133 --> 05:03.270 The important thing is that we've gotten those within the 05:03.270 --> 05:05.972 maximum permissible limits under national standards. 05:05.972 --> 05:08.708 I know that's not exciting to most people but how it plays out 05:08.708 --> 05:11.578 in the lives of the individuals who we represent is a higher 05:11.578 --> 05:14.414 level of satisfaction, better outcomes, 05:14.414 --> 05:16.316 and that's good for everybody. 05:16.316 --> 05:18.285 The individual, the family, their communities, 05:18.285 --> 05:19.920 and the city at large. 05:19.920 --> 05:22.489 - Ok. Bill. 05:22.489 --> 05:27.627 - So during your tenure Stephen, the defender's office began 05:29.129 --> 05:31.798 working in Memphis and Shelby County Juvenile Court. 05:31.798 --> 05:33.667 - Mmhmm, yes. 05:33.667 --> 05:38.738 - So as you leave, where is that transition at, 05:38.738 --> 05:43.743 because you not only have to have more attorneys for that, 05:43.743 --> 05:46.880 juvenile law is a very different kind of law than working in 05:48.448 --> 05:50.517 adult criminal court, so... 05:50.517 --> 05:52.385 - Right, right. 05:52.385 --> 05:55.922 Juvenile defense is a specialized practice of law. 05:58.592 --> 06:01.728 Kids just aren't little adults, it's different. 06:03.029 --> 06:05.065 Our lawyers, as we moved into this practice... 06:05.065 --> 06:06.900 the Public Defender hadn't represented kids in juvenile 06:06.900 --> 06:09.135 court for like forty years. 06:09.135 --> 06:11.438 Until the Department of Justice agreement. 06:12.906 --> 06:15.075 And as we moved into that practice we got to dive deep 06:15.075 --> 06:17.711 into some of the best thinking that's out there, 06:17.711 --> 06:20.347 so our lawyers have training in adolescent brain development. 06:20.347 --> 06:23.917 They know how to respond to kids that have seen more trauma than 06:23.917 --> 06:26.519 most of us can imagine. 06:26.519 --> 06:28.555 To be able to move into that work, 06:28.555 --> 06:31.057 lawyers have the same ethical obligations to kids as we do to 06:31.057 --> 06:33.960 anyone else that we represent. 06:33.960 --> 06:36.263 And that is, I'm very proud of that piece of work. 06:36.263 --> 06:39.833 We're not done yet, there's a lot more work to do, 06:39.833 --> 06:42.636 but the community should be proud of what we've been able to 06:42.636 --> 06:45.538 build through the juvenile defender practice. 06:47.207 --> 06:50.543 - As you also leave, the incoming mayor has a big 06:50.543 --> 06:54.281 decision to make in terms of Justice Department oversight. 06:54.281 --> 06:57.517 Where do you think that should go because the outgoing mayor 06:57.517 --> 07:02.255 has been pretty upfront with the point that he believes that the 07:02.255 --> 07:04.324 oversight should end. 07:04.324 --> 07:06.126 - And we should clarify, oversight of the Juvenile Court. 07:06.126 --> 07:07.894 - Right. 07:07.894 --> 07:10.230 - Well I... 07:10.230 --> 07:12.966 I actually had a whole different view of the oversight, 07:12.966 --> 07:15.402 I found it to be useful and helpful. 07:15.402 --> 07:17.537 Mayor Luttrell and then County Attorney, 07:17.537 --> 07:20.473 Kelly Rayne who structured this agreement did it in such a way 07:20.473 --> 07:22.509 that it kept us out of litigation. 07:22.509 --> 07:25.578 There is no consent decree, there is no Federal hammer over 07:25.578 --> 07:28.315 what we're doing, what we're able to do instead is to turn 07:28.315 --> 07:31.017 our attention and resources toward building the right 07:31.017 --> 07:33.953 juvenile justice system for this community. 07:35.822 --> 07:39.159 So I think too much energy has been spent on trying to end the 07:39.159 --> 07:43.096 oversight instead of focusing on the work that still 07:43.096 --> 07:45.465 needs to be done. 07:45.465 --> 07:47.567 I think the oversight is valuable. 07:47.567 --> 07:49.669 One of the things about the agreement is that it has these 07:49.669 --> 07:52.906 six month intervals where the DOJ and the monitors keep coming 07:52.906 --> 07:56.676 back in to check and direct progress. 07:56.676 --> 07:59.846 And because of those they anticipate 07:59.846 --> 08:02.282 that leadership changes. 08:02.282 --> 08:06.019 And Mayor Luttrell has been clear that local leaders need 08:06.019 --> 08:09.155 to be engaged to solve these local problems, 08:09.155 --> 08:11.691 and I think this next generation of leadership needs the 08:11.691 --> 08:14.227 opportunity to step into that. 08:14.227 --> 08:17.297 We all know that county governments focus on things that 08:17.297 --> 08:20.400 are priorities, and I don't think the work is done. 08:20.400 --> 08:23.036 I hope the DOJ doesn't step out right now, 08:23.036 --> 08:27.073 and that oversight continues because that will keep the work 08:27.073 --> 08:30.143 important to this next generation of leaders, 08:30.143 --> 08:33.113 and we haven't finished the task. 08:33.113 --> 08:36.683 - There are, we've had Judge Dan Michaels from the Juvenile Court 08:36.683 --> 08:39.018 on the show, six months ago or so, 08:39.018 --> 08:41.454 it's on the website, and he had a different perspective on this, 08:41.454 --> 08:44.057 just out of fairness. 08:44.057 --> 08:47.527 But from your point-of-view, one thing that we talked about with 08:47.527 --> 08:50.163 Judge Dan, and we've talked with other people, 08:50.163 --> 08:52.399 Josh Spickler from Justice City which you were involved in 08:52.399 --> 08:54.801 setting up, and we've had this conversation with a lot of 08:54.801 --> 08:57.971 people, and you reference it, handling juveniles differently. 08:57.971 --> 09:01.741 And part of that, it seems like everyone agrees in some fashion 09:01.741 --> 09:05.512 that every juvenile who gets picked up on a minor charge that 09:05.512 --> 09:07.914 they didn't go to school, loitering, 09:07.914 --> 09:10.984 small stuff, that they shouldn't go to jail, 09:10.984 --> 09:14.320 that there should be some fashion of diversion. 09:14.320 --> 09:16.089 What doesn't always seem to be the same is 09:16.089 --> 09:17.891 what is that diversion? 09:17.891 --> 09:21.694 What is that interim step that goes into place before a child 09:21.694 --> 09:24.497 is locked up in the juvenile jail. 09:24.497 --> 09:27.033 What, from your point-of-view, if you had the money, 09:27.033 --> 09:29.235 and you had the authority, for those kids, 09:29.235 --> 09:31.738 minor offenses, picked up for delinquency, 09:31.738 --> 09:35.308 picked up for loitering, picked up on the corner for some small, 09:35.308 --> 09:37.310 very small thing, let's stay away from drug crime, 09:37.310 --> 09:40.814 and violent crime, what should happen with that child? 09:40.814 --> 09:43.416 - The juvenile justice system should always 09:43.416 --> 09:45.218 be the last resort. 09:46.820 --> 09:49.022 We know a lot about the impact of an encounter with the 09:49.022 --> 09:51.357 juvenile justice system. 09:51.357 --> 09:53.960 To answer your question for the kid on the corner, 09:53.960 --> 09:56.196 just being picked up. 09:56.196 --> 09:58.965 We have to find ways to keep those children from coming 09:58.965 --> 10:01.601 anywhere near the juvenile justice system. 10:01.601 --> 10:03.069 This isn't just juvenile justice, 10:03.069 --> 10:05.638 it's the American criminal justice system at large. 10:05.638 --> 10:08.775 We have to stop using the justice system as a blunt tool 10:08.775 --> 10:11.644 to try to address other complex problems in the community. 10:14.481 --> 10:16.850 There's a lot of talk about the juvenile assessment center 10:16.850 --> 10:19.519 planning here. 10:19.519 --> 10:23.022 And I, I would like to be on record as being very cautious 10:23.022 --> 10:25.358 about that. 10:25.358 --> 10:29.095 Communities that have moved into juvenile assessment center 10:30.763 --> 10:34.334 strategies, it has no impact on addressing the problems we have 10:34.334 --> 10:36.803 with disproportionate minority contact. 10:36.803 --> 10:39.973 And actually, can lead to dramatic net widening in 10:39.973 --> 10:42.742 bringing more and more kids into contact with the system. 10:42.742 --> 10:44.644 - So is part of it simply not picking up 10:44.644 --> 10:46.379 the kid on the street corner? 10:46.379 --> 10:48.248 - No, it's-- - Is that, I mean is it 10:48.248 --> 10:49.816 a policing thing, and I'm not blaming that cop, 10:49.816 --> 10:51.317 I'm not doing that, 10:51.317 --> 10:53.186 but is it a strategy of policing that there should just be less 10:53.186 --> 10:56.122 contact between police and minor offenses? 10:56.122 --> 10:59.292 - So here's the danger, if the police can pick a kid up and 10:59.292 --> 11:00.894 believe they're doing the right thing, 11:00.894 --> 11:03.062 and doing their job by taking them to an assessment center 11:03.062 --> 11:05.465 quickly, that's going to incentivize that type of 11:05.465 --> 11:08.001 response, instead of doing the hard work of figuring out what's 11:08.001 --> 11:11.070 going on with that kid, and doing everything you can to 11:11.070 --> 11:14.841 navigate them back to family, and to support systems. 11:14.841 --> 11:18.811 We can't use the law enforcement and prosecution as the front 11:18.811 --> 11:22.649 line response to kids being on the street. 11:22.649 --> 11:25.051 - Now let's turn the page and go to the thing I put aside, 11:25.051 --> 11:30.223 which is the teenager, the 15, 16, 17-year-old who has, 11:30.223 --> 11:32.425 is accused of committing a violent crime. 11:32.425 --> 11:35.495 Whether it's murder, whether it's some kind of assault, 11:35.495 --> 11:38.498 whether it's drug related, it's what most people, 11:38.498 --> 11:40.466 and you don't have to agree with that, 11:40.466 --> 11:42.969 would consider a very serious, felony level crime. 11:42.969 --> 11:46.873 What is the proper approach with that child? 11:46.873 --> 11:48.808 - So this gets to the important and good work, 11:48.808 --> 11:51.878 the necessary work of the juvenile justice system. 11:51.878 --> 11:54.847 To be able to respond to that type of serious behavior in a 11:54.847 --> 11:58.384 way that is both fair, and developmentally appropriate. 12:01.888 --> 12:05.258 And will lead to the right type of sanction or punishment, 12:05.258 --> 12:07.760 but to do it in a way that doesn't harm that child for the 12:07.760 --> 12:09.529 rest of his life. 12:09.529 --> 12:11.464 - Is that possible? - Yeah it's possible. 12:11.464 --> 12:13.366 - Are there models around the country for, 12:13.366 --> 12:15.335 let's... 12:15.335 --> 12:17.804 I'm trying to do a scenario, and I hate to be awful, 12:17.804 --> 12:20.873 but a violent crime by a 17-year-old. 12:20.873 --> 12:23.443 Are there scenarios, or are there models where that child 12:23.443 --> 12:25.378 some-10, 15, however many years later, 12:25.378 --> 12:28.348 5 years later, comes out and re-enters society successfully? 12:28.348 --> 12:30.149 - Absolutely. 12:30.149 --> 12:32.719 There's no one-set model that fits everywhere. 12:32.719 --> 12:35.455 There is a lot of research, there's a lot of what we know 12:35.455 --> 12:37.724 about effectively responding to trauma. 12:37.724 --> 12:39.759 And juvenile court has been anchored to this idea of 12:39.759 --> 12:42.795 rehabilitation for a hundred years now. 12:42.795 --> 12:46.332 There are absolutely things we can do through the state systems 12:46.332 --> 12:49.736 that are used to, when children are committed 12:49.736 --> 12:52.305 to the care of the state. 12:53.506 --> 12:55.775 If we want to get really serious about that behavior, 12:55.775 --> 12:58.077 then we have to go all the way back. 12:58.077 --> 13:01.781 What we now know about the impact of toxic stress on kids, 13:01.781 --> 13:04.017 from the point of conception all the way forward, 13:04.017 --> 13:05.985 that needs to be our focus. 13:05.985 --> 13:09.022 We're not going to make this a safer community by who we pick 13:09.022 --> 13:11.658 up and how we respond to bad behavior. 13:11.658 --> 13:14.727 Over the next 20, 30 years we make it a safer more prosperous 13:14.727 --> 13:17.997 community if we can get about the business of growing 13:17.997 --> 13:19.766 healthier children. 13:19.766 --> 13:21.467 - Bill. 13:21.467 --> 13:23.870 - Let's move back to the other side of the public defenders 13:23.870 --> 13:28.307 office work, in the adult criminal justice system. 13:28.307 --> 13:32.945 Where do you think we are at the end of your term, 13:32.945 --> 13:36.549 with so much discussion about everything from suspended 13:36.549 --> 13:41.421 drivers licenses and the impacts that they have, 13:41.421 --> 13:44.490 to what's happening in the Shelby County Jail, 13:44.490 --> 13:47.627 and it's not over-crowding to the degree we've seen it before, 13:47.627 --> 13:49.962 but certainly there are some concerns that the jail 13:49.962 --> 13:52.632 population is rising. 13:52.632 --> 13:55.501 - I would say that the jail population concerns may be 13:55.501 --> 13:57.970  the priority issue for the incoming mayor elect, 13:57.970 --> 14:02.008 and the incoming sheriff, and the new leadership on 14:02.008 --> 14:03.976 the Board of County Commissioners. 14:03.976 --> 14:06.279 While it may not be as high as it's been before, 14:06.279 --> 14:09.082 the trajectory over the last four or five years, 14:09.082 --> 14:12.485 this could be the all-consuming, most expensive problem facing 14:12.485 --> 14:14.554 new leadership. 14:14.554 --> 14:16.723 So it does need to be a high priority as the new 14:16.723 --> 14:18.658 administration comes in. 14:18.658 --> 14:21.794 Arrests, physical arrests have been declining since 2014. 14:21.794 --> 14:24.263 We've seen fewer people arrested into the system, 14:24.263 --> 14:26.165 but they're staying longer. 14:26.165 --> 14:28.334 And jail population has reached a critical level, 14:28.334 --> 14:30.269 no question. 14:30.269 --> 14:33.773 - So is this decisions that prosecuters are making, 14:33.773 --> 14:37.510 or is this just the way that the system overall works? 14:38.778 --> 14:41.881 - Prosecuters have a lot of discretion in how they choose 14:41.881 --> 14:44.016 to prosecute cases. 14:44.016 --> 14:46.919 But that's not the only factor, there are a lot of factors that 14:46.919 --> 14:50.256 are driving the dynamics between jail poplulation. 14:50.256 --> 14:52.191 And it's very simple, it's two things. 14:52.191 --> 14:55.128 The number of people arrested, and how long they stay. 14:56.496 --> 14:58.998 And we need to look closely at the complex drivers behind that. 14:58.998 --> 15:01.467 There are a lot of solutions that have been laid in front of 15:01.467 --> 15:04.470 the County through this, the MacArthur Foundation Safety 15:04.470 --> 15:08.608 and Justice work here, but we haven't had the right leadership 15:08.608 --> 15:10.743 to be able to do anything with them. 15:10.743 --> 15:12.912 There should be a focus on bail reform. 15:12.912 --> 15:15.982 And Just City has been involved in highlighting this problem. 15:15.982 --> 15:17.884 There are things we can do. 15:17.884 --> 15:20.520 No one should be in the jail just because they're too poor 15:20.520 --> 15:22.855 to post a low bond. 15:22.855 --> 15:26.926 Jail, where people are before they are tried and convicted or 15:26.926 --> 15:29.495 acquitted needs to be reserved for people who are too dangerous 15:29.495 --> 15:31.664 to be released. 15:31.664 --> 15:33.766 - Correlation, and then I'll go back to Bill. 15:33.766 --> 15:36.335 The low bail presumption is that it's not a violent criminal, 15:36.335 --> 15:38.204 it's not someone who's a danger to society. 15:38.204 --> 15:40.239 - That's right. - Is that the correlation? 15:40.239 --> 15:42.475 - Well, first, and we don't have time to unpack it here, 15:42.475 --> 15:45.511 cash bail doesn't work. 15:45.511 --> 15:47.713 You can be the most dangerous person in the world, 15:47.713 --> 15:50.016 and if you can afford to make bail you're out. 15:50.016 --> 15:51.684 But if you're poor, you're not. 15:51.684 --> 15:54.320 And the vast majority of people in our jail waiting for their 15:54.320 --> 15:56.622 day in court are poor. 15:56.622 --> 15:58.291 There are better options. 15:58.291 --> 16:01.093 - And the vast majority have committed misdemeanors? 16:01.093 --> 16:05.364 - Midsdemeanors is a significant flow into the jail. 16:05.364 --> 16:07.533 That's probably not the area that's driving your jail 16:07.533 --> 16:09.602 population right now. 16:10.770 --> 16:13.873 You need to be looking at your in-custody felony detainees. 16:13.873 --> 16:16.042 The number of people who have been in the jail for more than 16:16.042 --> 16:19.478 500 days has doubled over the last year. 16:20.646 --> 16:22.181 - And about how many people is that? 16:22.181 --> 16:24.083 A couple hundred? A thousand? 16:24.083 --> 16:25.618 - I don't have the numbers right in front of me, 16:25.618 --> 16:27.553 but-- - Under a thousand? 16:27.553 --> 16:29.755 - What's interesting to me is that the public defenders office 16:29.755 --> 16:33.226 only represents 22, 23, 24% of those individuals. 16:33.226 --> 16:36.462 The rest of them are represented by private attorneys. 16:36.462 --> 16:38.898 Many of them appointed council. 16:38.898 --> 16:40.833 There are things that we can do, but these, 16:40.833 --> 16:42.735 there's no low-hanging fruit. 16:42.735 --> 16:46.105 These are difficult problems that will require people diving 16:46.105 --> 16:48.708 in deep to do the hard work to get to the solutions. 16:50.109 --> 16:52.278 - Back to Bill, ten minutes left. 16:52.278 --> 16:56.048 - And we're talking about people staying in that system too long, 16:57.149 --> 17:00.086 but for far different reasons than with juveniles in the 17:01.587 --> 17:03.756 juvenile system. 17:05.958 --> 17:10.196 But the city has a historic problem with violent crime. 17:12.365 --> 17:16.903 And a lot of times people will say the only solution to that is 17:16.903 --> 17:20.406 to keep these people from harming other people. 17:22.942 --> 17:26.546 - And you're... who is in jail, should be 17:26.546 --> 17:29.382 driven by that type of risk. 17:29.382 --> 17:32.184 That, if someone poses that type of risk to the community, 17:32.184 --> 17:34.587 that person should be in jail. 17:34.587 --> 17:37.123 - And they're not at this point in August? 17:37.123 --> 17:39.592 - Many of them are, but it is a matter of wealth, 17:39.592 --> 17:41.994 not risk that drives that. 17:44.330 --> 17:47.199 - Your office also, and you brought this up, 17:47.199 --> 17:50.002 if there is a case where your office is representing one 17:50.002 --> 17:54.874 defendant in that case, and there may be three or four 17:54.874 --> 17:57.443 co-defendants, your office then, 17:57.443 --> 17:59.845 because of our criminal proceedures cannot represent 17:59.845 --> 18:02.782 the others because that would be a conflict. 18:02.782 --> 18:05.551 - That's been how, based on how we've been traditionally 18:05.551 --> 18:08.220 structured, there have been limits on how you can use your 18:08.220 --> 18:09.956 public defense system. 18:09.956 --> 18:12.191 There are other models in other places, 18:12.191 --> 18:14.360 and some of the recommendations that were before the general 18:14.360 --> 18:16.662 assembly, and that may be coming in this next cycle, 18:16.662 --> 18:22.601 could offer other solutions to broaden how we use our systems 18:22.601 --> 18:24.770 for public defense. 18:24.770 --> 18:28.107 - Something like a firewall between the different defenders? 18:28.107 --> 18:30.710 - There are single agency models, 18:30.710 --> 18:32.645 there was a proposal that we thought was coming forward this 18:32.645 --> 18:35.581 year to create a conflict defender office here. 18:35.581 --> 18:38.684 We need to make sure that people aren't languishing in jail. 18:38.684 --> 18:40.886 Everyone needs their day in court. 18:40.886 --> 18:42.888 And for people who have committed serious 18:42.888 --> 18:45.358 and violent offences, there's no reason for anyone 18:45.358 --> 18:48.761 to be in jail for more than 500 days without 18:49.929 --> 18:52.264 having an opportunity for their day in court. 18:53.866 --> 18:55.968 - What is the Jericho Project? 18:55.968 --> 18:59.839 - The Jericho Project is some work that is approaching its 18:59.839 --> 19:01.440 20th anniversary actually. 19:01.440 --> 19:03.542 This grew out of the last Department of Justice engagement 19:03.542 --> 19:05.611 with the jail. 19:05.611 --> 19:09.148 And it was our effort to represent people who were 19:09.148 --> 19:12.752 cycling through the criminal justice system who live with 19:12.752 --> 19:16.522 serious mental illness, to represent them the way people of 19:16.522 --> 19:18.457 means are represented. 19:18.457 --> 19:20.292 - Which means, what? 19:20.292 --> 19:24.163 - Really good lawyering tied to the ability to access important 19:24.163 --> 19:26.565 supports and services in the community. 19:28.300 --> 19:30.403 We know how to turn on social security, 19:30.403 --> 19:31.804 we know how to navigate Medicaid. 19:31.804 --> 19:33.406 We know how to navigate housing. 19:33.406 --> 19:35.975 And we've been able to put together plans for individuals 19:35.975 --> 19:38.811 who once they are 19:41.714 --> 19:44.216 stable enough, and willing to engage, 19:44.216 --> 19:46.185 can actually have dramatic positive results. 19:46.185 --> 19:49.388 It's gotten a lot of accolades over the years, 19:49.388 --> 19:53.159 and even an award from the American Association 19:53.159 --> 19:55.061 of Prosecuting Attorneys. 19:55.061 --> 19:56.796 - And you were instrumental, 19:56.796 --> 19:58.531 you're being a little bit modest. You were, this was 19:58.531 --> 20:00.800 your project. 20:00.800 --> 20:02.435 - Mayor Wharton was Chief Public Defender at the time, 20:02.435 --> 20:04.070 Mayor Luttrell was Sheriff at the time, 20:04.070 --> 20:06.105 and there was a lot of cross-line support for figuring 20:06.105 --> 20:08.174 out how to do this. 20:08.174 --> 20:09.642 And I've been amazed at the success of it. 20:09.642 --> 20:11.544 It's low-cost, it's a different model then specialty courts, 20:11.544 --> 20:13.546 and high impact. 20:13.546 --> 20:16.849 And what we should take from those learnings is that there 20:16.849 --> 20:20.052 are ways that the justice system can became a full partner in the 20:20.052 --> 20:22.621 public health cycle of care. 20:22.621 --> 20:26.325 And future leadership should pick up on the lessons learned 20:26.325 --> 20:28.260 from Jericho. 20:28.260 --> 20:29.962 - Bill, referenced this somewhat, 20:29.962 --> 20:31.764 and we've talked about it before, 20:31.764 --> 20:33.432 any number of times with the Justice City folks, 20:33.432 --> 20:35.167 with Harold Collins from Operation Safe Community, 20:35.167 --> 20:37.436 former City Councilman, the role of fines. 20:37.436 --> 20:39.972 I think that nationally, or maybe it's just my awakening 20:39.972 --> 20:43.175 to it, but you see more and more that fines that perhaps 20:43.175 --> 20:45.978 you and I would sort of be annoyed to pay for 20:45.978 --> 20:48.514 an expired license, a couple hundred dollars or something, 20:48.514 --> 20:52.685 that add up for the working poor for people for whom that is an 20:54.186 --> 20:56.922 insurmountable dollar amount who end up in jail. 20:56.922 --> 21:00.826 What should be done about how fines are assessed? 21:01.460 --> 21:04.230 For again, we're talking low level offenders, 21:05.631 --> 21:07.266 low level offenses like broken tail lights, 21:07.266 --> 21:10.202 expired licenses, what should that approach be, 21:10.202 --> 21:12.171 versus what it is now? 21:12.171 --> 21:14.507 - We should fundamentally re-think using the justice 21:14.507 --> 21:17.443 system as creating revenue streams for other things. 21:17.443 --> 21:20.412 It doesn't work, it really doesn't work in communities that 21:20.412 --> 21:23.682 are as poor who are trying to grapple with intractable poverty 21:23.682 --> 21:25.518 as we are in Memphis. 21:25.518 --> 21:27.219 This is one of the things that Just City has been successful 21:27.219 --> 21:29.054 at shining a light on. 21:29.054 --> 21:31.357 And not just Just City alone, but with partners like 21:31.357 --> 21:35.895 Baker Donelson, they challanged a change in state law regarding 21:35.895 --> 21:37.830 drivers licenses and suspending them 21:37.830 --> 21:40.332 because of unpaid court costs. 21:40.332 --> 21:42.401 - And the time it takes, Josh Spickler from Just City will 21:42.401 --> 21:44.370 point out, Harold will point out that the time it takes to go and 21:44.370 --> 21:47.573 get those things taken care of when you've got an hourly job 21:47.573 --> 21:49.275 that you might get fired from for missing work. 21:49.275 --> 21:51.277 - This is what I would challange new leadership to do. 21:51.277 --> 21:53.379 Look at the amount of money on the books. 21:53.379 --> 21:55.447 It's uncollectable, it's never going to be collected, 21:55.447 --> 21:57.149 it's pennies on the dollar. 21:57.149 --> 21:59.718 Look at what it costs to maintain the books, 21:59.718 --> 22:02.688 and start re-thinking whether or not we need to be focusing on 22:04.290 --> 22:06.058 costs, fees, and fines. 22:06.058 --> 22:07.827 - You talk about new leadership, that would be, 22:07.827 --> 22:09.528 those kinds of things could be done by County Commission, 22:09.528 --> 22:11.964 by City Council, or does it take the State legislature to do it? 22:11.964 --> 22:14.867 - Both, you know, local justice policy is driven by local 22:14.867 --> 22:18.571 decisions, and State decisions, not Federal. 22:18.571 --> 22:20.506 And that's one of the reasons that I think Just City is so 22:20.506 --> 22:23.042 important to this community, that there's an independent 22:23.042 --> 22:26.412 voice that's shining a light on important justice issues. 22:26.412 --> 22:30.716 What they've done to highlight the problem of girls being held 22:30.716 --> 22:34.220 in state penitentiaries until they have their day in court, 22:34.220 --> 22:36.021 is incredibly important. 22:36.021 --> 22:38.624 What they've done to shine a light on the importance of 22:38.624 --> 22:40.859 expungement to clear the record of people, 22:40.859 --> 22:44.363 to begin to reduce the lifetime consequences of one bump against 22:44.363 --> 22:46.432 the system. 22:46.432 --> 22:48.334 These are the types of things that we have to do in this 22:48.334 --> 22:51.971 community if we are going to be able to grapple with this 22:51.971 --> 22:54.607 intractable multi-generational poverty. 22:56.141 --> 22:57.710 - You mention the new leadership, 22:57.710 --> 22:59.578 and we're going to take just a couple of minutes 22:59.578 --> 23:01.280 at the end here. 23:01.280 --> 23:03.749 Last week's show we taped on Thursday, 23:03.749 --> 23:05.684 the election was Thursday night, and give, 23:05.684 --> 23:08.053 Bill, maybe a quick walk through of some of the results of the 23:08.053 --> 23:09.855 election, probably most people have read them. 23:09.855 --> 23:11.523 But also, what's on the ballot because we're not done. 23:11.523 --> 23:14.627 There's yet another election date coming up in November. 23:14.627 --> 23:17.062 What's on that ballot, and who will be running? 23:18.097 --> 23:19.665 - Alright, the August 2nd elections, 23:19.665 --> 23:22.234 a new County Mayor was elected, that was going to be the case, 23:22.234 --> 23:25.037 that person is Lee Harris, the Democratic nominee. 23:26.872 --> 23:29.041 - Who will be coming on the show next week, actually. 23:29.041 --> 23:31.577 - Ok, who will be on the show next week, 23:31.577 --> 23:35.047 and we also have eight new Shelby County commissioners. 23:35.047 --> 23:39.118 And we also have an eight vote Democratic majority on the 23:39.118 --> 23:41.754 County Commission as a result of an election in which Democrats 23:41.754 --> 23:45.991 swept every county wide office on the ballot, 23:45.991 --> 23:48.861 much different results than the last two elections in this 23:48.861 --> 23:50.462 cycle. 23:50.462 --> 23:52.698 - Before you go to the next, they will be seated in January? 23:52.698 --> 23:55.834 - No. Septemeber first. - Like I said, September. 23:55.834 --> 23:58.037 - Everybody begins their term of office. 23:58.037 --> 24:01.640 And the next election is the November 6th election, 24:01.640 --> 24:05.911 the folks that you voted for in the State and Federal primaries 24:05.911 --> 24:08.414 are on the ballot for their general election 24:08.414 --> 24:10.916 on November 6th, the race for Governor 24:10.916 --> 24:14.186 will be decided between the two nominees, and other 24:14.186 --> 24:16.588 independent contenders, the U.S. Senate seat that 24:16.588 --> 24:18.957 Bob Corker is leaving is on there, 24:18.957 --> 24:22.127 all 14 of the State House seats covering Shelby County, 24:22.127 --> 24:25.931 3 of the 5 State Senate Seats that cover Shelby County, 24:25.931 --> 24:29.935 and just for fun, three charter amendments to the City charter. 24:29.935 --> 24:32.204 - Do you want to try to name off those city charter amendments, 24:32.204 --> 24:33.906 or should we not go there. 24:33.906 --> 24:35.574 - Let's not go there. [chuckling] 24:35.574 --> 24:37.843 - People should go and look those up. 24:37.843 --> 24:39.712 But we wanted to be sure we touched on that, 24:39.712 --> 24:42.581 and again, we look forward to having incoming County Mayor 24:42.581 --> 24:44.717 Lee Harris next week. 24:44.717 --> 24:47.753 To your, again, as we said at the top of the show, 24:47.753 --> 24:51.290 the... Lee Harris will nominate your successor, 24:51.290 --> 24:54.460 the County Commission will vote on that. 24:54.460 --> 24:57.663 You've talked a little bit about what you would like to see those 24:57.663 --> 24:59.565 folks do, you've talked a lot about what you'd like to see 24:59.565 --> 25:02.668 those folks pursue. But what is next for you, 25:02.668 --> 25:04.770 after 27 years in the public defender's office? 25:04.770 --> 25:07.706 - I have only made one committment for after 25:08.807 --> 25:12.010 I step down, and that's to my wife. 25:12.010 --> 25:14.313 That I would take a sabbatical. 25:14.313 --> 25:17.116 I grew up in a clergy family, my dad is an Episcopal priest, 25:17.116 --> 25:20.285 and every seven years we force our priests to go 25:20.285 --> 25:22.121 and take a sabbatical. 25:22.121 --> 25:25.357 And he would come back rested and rejuvenated and I am looking 25:25.357 --> 25:28.026 forward to that time. 25:28.026 --> 25:31.864 I am proud to leave to Mayor Harris and other leaders a 25:31.864 --> 25:37.002 well-functioning law firm full of dedicated professionals, 25:37.002 --> 25:39.405 many of whom were students of 25:39.405 --> 25:42.808 Professor/Senator Mayor-Elect Harris. 25:42.808 --> 25:46.278 So I think the future is bright as this work moves forward. 25:47.746 --> 25:50.015 - I hadn't thought about that, because Mayor Wharton, 25:50.015 --> 25:51.517 and I think Kelly Rayne, who you mentioned, 25:51.517 --> 25:53.952 the former County Attorney, she got involved 25:53.952 --> 25:55.821 with public defense, and all these kinds of things 25:55.821 --> 25:57.256 because she was a student of Wharton's, I believe 25:57.256 --> 25:58.857 at Ole Miss, right? 25:58.857 --> 26:01.026 - You know a lot of our alumni have moved forward to do all 26:01.026 --> 26:03.295 sorts of good and important work, 26:03.295 --> 26:06.965 and we've been able to recruit some of the finest young lawyers 26:06.965 --> 26:09.268 from schools across the country. 26:09.268 --> 26:12.471 Yale, NYU, Chicago, Northwestern, 26:12.471 --> 26:15.574 but also the best and brightest from the University of Memphis. 26:15.574 --> 26:17.776 There's a lot of talent there, and I look forward to seeing 26:17.776 --> 26:19.445 what they do. 26:19.445 --> 26:21.380 - Ok. Thank you for being here, sorry to cut you off. 26:21.380 --> 26:23.315 Thank you Bill, and thank you for joining us, 26:23.315 --> 26:26.218 join us again, next week. 26:26.218 --> 26:29.221 [dramatic orchestral music] 26:36.829 --> 26:38.831 [acoustic guitar chords]