1 00:00:11,445 --> 00:00:12,613 - (female narrator)   Production funding for 2 00:00:12,613 --> 00:00:14,014 Behind the Headlines 3 00:00:14,014 --> 00:00:15,849 is made possible in part by: 4 00:00:15,849 --> 00:00:18,085 The WKNO Production Fund, 5 00:00:18,085 --> 00:00:20,220 The WKNO Endowment Fund, 6 00:00:20,220 --> 00:00:23,490 and by viewers like you.   Thank you. 7 00:00:23,490 --> 00:00:26,560 - Retiring Chief Public Defender Stephen Bush, 8 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:28,528 tonight, on Behind the Headlines. 9 00:00:28,528 --> 00:00:33,200 [dramatic orchestral music] 10 00:00:46,413 --> 00:00:48,415 - I'm Eric Barnes, publisher of The Memphis Daily News, 11 00:00:48,415 --> 00:00:49,917 thanks for joining us. 12 00:00:49,917 --> 00:00:51,618 I am joined tonight by the Chief Public Defender 13 00:00:51,618 --> 00:00:53,787 for Shelby County, Stephen Bush. Thanks for being here again. 14 00:00:53,787 --> 00:00:55,622 - Thank you Eric, it's nice to be here. 15 00:00:55,622 --> 00:00:58,725 - Along with senior reporter, Bill Dries. 16 00:00:58,725 --> 00:01:00,961 You are retiring, you've announced your retirement, 17 00:01:00,961 --> 00:01:02,896 you're going to be in office a little bit longer. 18 00:01:02,896 --> 00:01:06,366 Talk about this process first, of retiring, 19 00:01:06,366 --> 00:01:10,504 the office is appointed by the Shelby County Mayor-- 20 00:01:10,504 --> 00:01:12,072 - That's right. 21 00:01:12,072 --> 00:01:13,574 - And confirmed by the County Commission. 22 00:01:13,574 --> 00:01:15,776 - In Shelby County, the responsibility of nominating 23 00:01:15,776 --> 00:01:17,744 a Chief Defender falls to the County Mayor, 24 00:01:17,744 --> 00:01:20,380 and has to be approved by the board of County Commissioners. 25 00:01:20,380 --> 00:01:22,616 - Ok, so you're not leaving anytime soon, 26 00:01:22,616 --> 00:01:24,518 you're going to wait until Lee Harris takes office, 27 00:01:24,518 --> 00:01:26,320 is that the plan? 28 00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:28,488 - Right, right. 29 00:01:28,488 --> 00:01:30,991 I made this announcement of my plans to step down before the 30 00:01:30,991 --> 00:01:35,262 election so that the incoming mayor would have enough time, 31 00:01:36,596 --> 00:01:40,867 and this would be a priority so we can get this selection right. 32 00:01:42,269 --> 00:01:45,005 - And you've been a public defender for 27 years? 33 00:01:45,005 --> 00:01:48,642 - Oh heavens, yes, for now more than half of my life. 34 00:01:48,642 --> 00:01:52,813 I'm 54 and I've been doing this work for 27 years. 35 00:01:52,813 --> 00:01:55,682 There's a pretty good argument to be made that no one should do 36 00:01:55,682 --> 00:01:58,485 the work of public defense for that long. 37 00:01:58,485 --> 00:02:03,090 So we've been looking forward to this transition for some time. 38 00:02:05,392 --> 00:02:07,094 - Yeah, and we'll talk more about that, 39 00:02:07,094 --> 00:02:09,096 we'll come back to some of the transition, 40 00:02:09,096 --> 00:02:10,731 and some of why you did this, but in that career, 41 00:02:10,731 --> 00:02:12,599 either as the Chief for the last eight years, 42 00:02:12,599 --> 00:02:15,902 or at any time, your best moment? 43 00:02:15,902 --> 00:02:18,071 Or a best moment-- - Oh gosh. 44 00:02:18,071 --> 00:02:20,107 - As a public defender. 45 00:02:20,107 --> 00:02:21,942 - There've been so many best moments. 46 00:02:21,942 --> 00:02:24,011 I never planned to be a public defender, 47 00:02:24,011 --> 00:02:26,213 and when former mayor, Chief Public Defender A.C. Wharton 48 00:02:26,213 --> 00:02:30,417 hired me, he wanted this long commitment of three years. 49 00:02:30,417 --> 00:02:32,052 Which seemed like an extraordinary 50 00:02:32,052 --> 00:02:33,987 long period of time. 51 00:02:33,987 --> 00:02:36,256 It's been a remarkable place to practice law, 52 00:02:36,256 --> 00:02:39,359 and to learn the craft, and to be a part of the community. 53 00:02:39,359 --> 00:02:42,963 It's been the honor of my life to serve as Chief Public 54 00:02:42,963 --> 00:02:46,333 Defender, and I'm deeply grateful for Mayor Luttrell for 55 00:02:46,333 --> 00:02:48,635 placing that trust in me. 56 00:02:48,635 --> 00:02:51,671 And we've done a lot of work over the last eight years too, 57 00:02:51,671 --> 00:02:56,009 to change a lot of things that needed to be improved so that 58 00:02:57,411 --> 00:03:00,080 the work of this hundred-year-old law firm is 59 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,716 ready for its next generation of service. 60 00:03:02,716 --> 00:03:05,085 - What makes, I'm going to come back to my question, 61 00:03:05,085 --> 00:03:06,853 what makes a good moment? 62 00:03:06,853 --> 00:03:08,822 What makes a good day when you're the public defender. 63 00:03:08,822 --> 00:03:10,524 Because I think most people would think that it's probably 64 00:03:10,524 --> 00:03:12,359 rough moments, and rough days. 65 00:03:12,359 --> 00:03:13,727 - It is rough moments. 66 00:03:13,727 --> 00:03:15,462 You might think it's an acquittal, 67 00:03:15,462 --> 00:03:19,466 or that, but there's something about being able to do this work 68 00:03:19,466 --> 00:03:23,770 with people who are in a very difficult spot that when they 69 00:03:23,770 --> 00:03:26,673 feel and know that they've been treated with dignity and 70 00:03:26,673 --> 00:03:28,642 respect, and have the right advice to make the right 71 00:03:28,642 --> 00:03:31,244 decisions, whether it's a plea agreement, 72 00:03:31,244 --> 00:03:35,649 or going to trial, and to see that unfold day after day, 73 00:03:35,649 --> 00:03:38,752 that's what's rewarding about this work. 74 00:03:40,487 --> 00:03:42,889 - And then, lastly, then I'll turn to Bill, 75 00:03:42,889 --> 00:03:44,524 but worst moments. 76 00:03:44,524 --> 00:03:46,560 What are the really bad moments? 77 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,130 - You know, it doesn't matter how good you are as a lawyer 78 00:03:50,130 --> 00:03:52,065 when you're under such an overwhelming, 79 00:03:52,065 --> 00:03:56,203 crushing case load, and you can't do what you need to do to 80 00:03:56,203 --> 00:03:58,905 meet your ethical requirements to your clients. 81 00:03:58,905 --> 00:04:01,041 That's been the experience in our office, 82 00:04:01,041 --> 00:04:02,776 and in many offices. 83 00:04:02,776 --> 00:04:05,078 Public defense is broken just about everywhere, 84 00:04:05,078 --> 00:04:07,948 particularly in the south, outside of the Federal system. 85 00:04:07,948 --> 00:04:10,517 And so the work we've done over the last eight years is to 86 00:04:10,517 --> 00:04:13,920 reposition and to do the change work to actually 87 00:04:14,387 --> 00:04:16,623 fix those things. 88 00:04:16,623 --> 00:04:18,758 One of the things we've been able to do that I'm proud of is 89 00:04:18,758 --> 00:04:21,161 increasing the funding for the office. 90 00:04:21,161 --> 00:04:24,731 We've gone from $7 million a year in recurring funding to $14 91 00:04:24,731 --> 00:04:26,833 over the last eight. 92 00:04:26,833 --> 00:04:29,202 And that's good, but what's really valuable about it is 93 00:04:29,202 --> 00:04:31,905 we've been able to begin to control work load, 94 00:04:31,905 --> 00:04:34,207 so that you actually can deliver high quality, 95 00:04:34,207 --> 00:04:37,677 uniform services to all of the people that we represent. 96 00:04:39,179 --> 00:04:40,847 - A case load is what? 97 00:04:40,847 --> 00:04:43,383 I said I'd go to Bill, but now, what is a case load? 98 00:04:43,383 --> 00:04:45,118 How do you measure that, is it a day, 99 00:04:45,118 --> 00:04:46,953 a year? - It's still high, too high, 100 00:04:46,953 --> 00:04:48,688 but it is manageable. 101 00:04:48,688 --> 00:04:50,690 It depends on the type of work you do. 102 00:04:50,690 --> 00:04:52,092 - But give people a perspective, are we talking hundreds, 103 00:04:52,092 --> 00:04:53,693 are we talking thousands, are we talking tens of thousands 104 00:04:53,693 --> 00:04:55,562 in a given year? 105 00:04:55,562 --> 00:04:57,531 - Still, hundreds of misdemeanors if that's the work 106 00:04:57,531 --> 00:05:00,133 that a lawyer is doing, fewer of course felonies. 107 00:05:00,133 --> 00:05:03,270 The important thing is that we've gotten those within the 108 00:05:03,270 --> 00:05:05,972 maximum permissible limits under national standards. 109 00:05:05,972 --> 00:05:08,708 I know that's not exciting to most people but how it plays out 110 00:05:08,708 --> 00:05:11,578 in the lives of the individuals who we represent is a higher 111 00:05:11,578 --> 00:05:14,414 level of satisfaction, better outcomes, 112 00:05:14,414 --> 00:05:16,316 and that's good for everybody. 113 00:05:16,316 --> 00:05:18,285 The individual, the family, their communities, 114 00:05:18,285 --> 00:05:19,920 and the city at large. 115 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,489 - Ok. Bill. 116 00:05:22,489 --> 00:05:27,627 - So during your tenure Stephen, the defender's office began 117 00:05:29,129 --> 00:05:31,798 working in Memphis and Shelby County Juvenile Court. 118 00:05:31,798 --> 00:05:33,667 - Mmhmm, yes. 119 00:05:33,667 --> 00:05:38,738 - So as you leave, where is that transition at, 120 00:05:38,738 --> 00:05:43,743 because you not only have to have more attorneys for that, 121 00:05:43,743 --> 00:05:46,880 juvenile law is a very different kind of law than working in 122 00:05:48,448 --> 00:05:50,517 adult criminal court, so... 123 00:05:50,517 --> 00:05:52,385 - Right, right. 124 00:05:52,385 --> 00:05:55,922 Juvenile defense is a specialized practice of law. 125 00:05:58,592 --> 00:06:01,728 Kids just aren't little adults, it's different. 126 00:06:03,029 --> 00:06:05,065 Our lawyers, as we moved into this practice... 127 00:06:05,065 --> 00:06:06,900 the Public Defender hadn't represented kids in juvenile 128 00:06:06,900 --> 00:06:09,135 court for like forty years. 129 00:06:09,135 --> 00:06:11,438 Until the Department of Justice agreement. 130 00:06:12,906 --> 00:06:15,075 And as we moved into that practice we got to dive deep 131 00:06:15,075 --> 00:06:17,711 into some of the best thinking that's out there, 132 00:06:17,711 --> 00:06:20,347 so our lawyers have training in adolescent brain development. 133 00:06:20,347 --> 00:06:23,917 They know how to respond to kids that have seen more trauma than 134 00:06:23,917 --> 00:06:26,519 most of us can imagine. 135 00:06:26,519 --> 00:06:28,555 To be able to move into that work, 136 00:06:28,555 --> 00:06:31,057 lawyers have the same ethical obligations to kids as we do to 137 00:06:31,057 --> 00:06:33,960 anyone else that we represent. 138 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,263 And that is, I'm very proud of that piece of work. 139 00:06:36,263 --> 00:06:39,833 We're not done yet, there's a lot more work to do, 140 00:06:39,833 --> 00:06:42,636 but the community should be proud of what we've been able to 141 00:06:42,636 --> 00:06:45,538 build through the juvenile defender practice. 142 00:06:47,207 --> 00:06:50,543 - As you also leave, the incoming mayor has a big 143 00:06:50,543 --> 00:06:54,281 decision to make in terms of Justice Department oversight. 144 00:06:54,281 --> 00:06:57,517 Where do you think that should go because the outgoing mayor 145 00:06:57,517 --> 00:07:02,255 has been pretty upfront with the point that he believes that the 146 00:07:02,255 --> 00:07:04,324 oversight should end. 147 00:07:04,324 --> 00:07:06,126 - And we should clarify, oversight of the Juvenile Court. 148 00:07:06,126 --> 00:07:07,894 - Right. 149 00:07:07,894 --> 00:07:10,230 - Well I... 150 00:07:10,230 --> 00:07:12,966 I actually had a whole different view of the oversight, 151 00:07:12,966 --> 00:07:15,402 I found it to be useful and helpful. 152 00:07:15,402 --> 00:07:17,537 Mayor Luttrell and then County Attorney, 153 00:07:17,537 --> 00:07:20,473 Kelly Rayne who structured this agreement did it in such a way 154 00:07:20,473 --> 00:07:22,509 that it kept us out of litigation. 155 00:07:22,509 --> 00:07:25,578 There is no consent decree, there is no Federal hammer over 156 00:07:25,578 --> 00:07:28,315 what we're doing, what we're able to do instead is to turn 157 00:07:28,315 --> 00:07:31,017 our attention and resources toward building the right 158 00:07:31,017 --> 00:07:33,953 juvenile justice system for this community. 159 00:07:35,822 --> 00:07:39,159 So I think too much energy has been spent on trying to end the 160 00:07:39,159 --> 00:07:43,096 oversight instead of focusing on the work that still 161 00:07:43,096 --> 00:07:45,465 needs to be done. 162 00:07:45,465 --> 00:07:47,567 I think the oversight is valuable. 163 00:07:47,567 --> 00:07:49,669 One of the things about the agreement is that it has these 164 00:07:49,669 --> 00:07:52,906 six month intervals where the DOJ and the monitors keep coming 165 00:07:52,906 --> 00:07:56,676 back in to check and direct progress. 166 00:07:56,676 --> 00:07:59,846 And because of those they anticipate 167 00:07:59,846 --> 00:08:02,282 that leadership changes. 168 00:08:02,282 --> 00:08:06,019 And Mayor Luttrell has been clear that local leaders need 169 00:08:06,019 --> 00:08:09,155 to be engaged to solve these local problems, 170 00:08:09,155 --> 00:08:11,691 and I think this next generation of leadership needs the 171 00:08:11,691 --> 00:08:14,227 opportunity to step into that. 172 00:08:14,227 --> 00:08:17,297 We all know that county governments focus on things that 173 00:08:17,297 --> 00:08:20,400 are priorities, and I don't think the work is done. 174 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,036 I hope the DOJ doesn't step out right now, 175 00:08:23,036 --> 00:08:27,073 and that oversight continues because that will keep the work 176 00:08:27,073 --> 00:08:30,143 important to this next generation of leaders, 177 00:08:30,143 --> 00:08:33,113 and we haven't finished the task. 178 00:08:33,113 --> 00:08:36,683 - There are, we've had Judge Dan Michaels from the Juvenile Court 179 00:08:36,683 --> 00:08:39,018 on the show, six months ago or so, 180 00:08:39,018 --> 00:08:41,454 it's on the website, and he had a different perspective on this, 181 00:08:41,454 --> 00:08:44,057 just out of fairness. 182 00:08:44,057 --> 00:08:47,527 But from your point-of-view, one thing that we talked about with 183 00:08:47,527 --> 00:08:50,163 Judge Dan, and we've talked with other people, 184 00:08:50,163 --> 00:08:52,399 Josh Spickler from Justice City which you were involved in 185 00:08:52,399 --> 00:08:54,801 setting up, and we've had this conversation with a lot of 186 00:08:54,801 --> 00:08:57,971 people, and you reference it, handling juveniles differently. 187 00:08:57,971 --> 00:09:01,741 And part of that, it seems like everyone agrees in some fashion 188 00:09:01,741 --> 00:09:05,512 that every juvenile who gets picked up on a minor charge that 189 00:09:05,512 --> 00:09:07,914 they didn't go to school, loitering, 190 00:09:07,914 --> 00:09:10,984 small stuff, that they shouldn't go to jail, 191 00:09:10,984 --> 00:09:14,320 that there should be some fashion of diversion. 192 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,089 What doesn't always seem to be the same is 193 00:09:16,089 --> 00:09:17,891 what is that diversion? 194 00:09:17,891 --> 00:09:21,694 What is that interim step that goes into place before a child 195 00:09:21,694 --> 00:09:24,497 is locked up in the juvenile jail. 196 00:09:24,497 --> 00:09:27,033 What, from your point-of-view, if you had the money, 197 00:09:27,033 --> 00:09:29,235 and you had the authority, for those kids, 198 00:09:29,235 --> 00:09:31,738 minor offenses, picked up for delinquency, 199 00:09:31,738 --> 00:09:35,308 picked up for loitering, picked up on the corner for some small, 200 00:09:35,308 --> 00:09:37,310 very small thing, let's stay away from drug crime, 201 00:09:37,310 --> 00:09:40,814 and violent crime, what should happen with that child? 202 00:09:40,814 --> 00:09:43,416 - The juvenile justice system should always 203 00:09:43,416 --> 00:09:45,218 be the last resort. 204 00:09:46,820 --> 00:09:49,022 We know a lot about the impact of an encounter with the 205 00:09:49,022 --> 00:09:51,357 juvenile justice system. 206 00:09:51,357 --> 00:09:53,960 To answer your question for the kid on the corner, 207 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,196 just being picked up. 208 00:09:56,196 --> 00:09:58,965 We have to find ways to keep those children from coming 209 00:09:58,965 --> 00:10:01,601 anywhere near the juvenile justice system. 210 00:10:01,601 --> 00:10:03,069 This isn't just juvenile justice, 211 00:10:03,069 --> 00:10:05,638 it's the American criminal justice system at large. 212 00:10:05,638 --> 00:10:08,775 We have to stop using the justice system as a blunt tool 213 00:10:08,775 --> 00:10:11,644 to try to address other complex problems in the community. 214 00:10:14,481 --> 00:10:16,850 There's a lot of talk about the juvenile assessment center 215 00:10:16,850 --> 00:10:19,519 planning here. 216 00:10:19,519 --> 00:10:23,022 And I, I would like to be on record as being very cautious 217 00:10:23,022 --> 00:10:25,358 about that. 218 00:10:25,358 --> 00:10:29,095 Communities that have moved into juvenile assessment center 219 00:10:30,763 --> 00:10:34,334 strategies, it has no impact on addressing the problems we have 220 00:10:34,334 --> 00:10:36,803 with disproportionate minority contact. 221 00:10:36,803 --> 00:10:39,973 And actually, can lead to dramatic net widening in 222 00:10:39,973 --> 00:10:42,742 bringing more and more kids into contact with the system. 223 00:10:42,742 --> 00:10:44,644 - So is part of it simply not picking up 224 00:10:44,644 --> 00:10:46,379 the kid on the street corner? 225 00:10:46,379 --> 00:10:48,248 - No, it's-- - Is that, I mean is it 226 00:10:48,248 --> 00:10:49,816 a policing thing, and I'm not blaming that cop, 227 00:10:49,816 --> 00:10:51,317 I'm not doing that, 228 00:10:51,317 --> 00:10:53,186 but is it a strategy of policing that there should just be less 229 00:10:53,186 --> 00:10:56,122 contact between police and minor offenses? 230 00:10:56,122 --> 00:10:59,292 - So here's the danger, if the police can pick a kid up and 231 00:10:59,292 --> 00:11:00,894 believe they're doing the right thing, 232 00:11:00,894 --> 00:11:03,062 and doing their job by taking them to an assessment center 233 00:11:03,062 --> 00:11:05,465 quickly, that's going to incentivize that type of 234 00:11:05,465 --> 00:11:08,001 response, instead of doing the hard work of figuring out what's 235 00:11:08,001 --> 00:11:11,070 going on with that kid, and doing everything you can to 236 00:11:11,070 --> 00:11:14,841 navigate them back to family, and to support systems. 237 00:11:14,841 --> 00:11:18,811 We can't use the law enforcement and prosecution as the front 238 00:11:18,811 --> 00:11:22,649 line response to kids being on the street. 239 00:11:22,649 --> 00:11:25,051 - Now let's turn the page and go to the thing I put aside, 240 00:11:25,051 --> 00:11:30,223 which is the teenager, the 15, 16, 17-year-old who has, 241 00:11:30,223 --> 00:11:32,425 is accused of committing a violent crime. 242 00:11:32,425 --> 00:11:35,495 Whether it's murder, whether it's some kind of assault, 243 00:11:35,495 --> 00:11:38,498 whether it's drug related, it's what most people, 244 00:11:38,498 --> 00:11:40,466 and you don't have to agree with that, 245 00:11:40,466 --> 00:11:42,969 would consider a very serious, felony level crime. 246 00:11:42,969 --> 00:11:46,873 What is the proper approach with that child? 247 00:11:46,873 --> 00:11:48,808 - So this gets to the important and good work, 248 00:11:48,808 --> 00:11:51,878 the necessary work of the juvenile justice system. 249 00:11:51,878 --> 00:11:54,847 To be able to respond to that type of serious behavior in a 250 00:11:54,847 --> 00:11:58,384 way that is both fair, and developmentally appropriate. 251 00:12:01,888 --> 00:12:05,258 And will lead to the right type of sanction or punishment, 252 00:12:05,258 --> 00:12:07,760 but to do it in a way that doesn't harm that child for the 253 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:09,529 rest of his life. 254 00:12:09,529 --> 00:12:11,464 - Is that possible? - Yeah it's possible. 255 00:12:11,464 --> 00:12:13,366 - Are there models around the country for, 256 00:12:13,366 --> 00:12:15,335 let's... 257 00:12:15,335 --> 00:12:17,804 I'm trying to do a scenario, and I hate to be awful, 258 00:12:17,804 --> 00:12:20,873 but a violent crime by a 17-year-old. 259 00:12:20,873 --> 00:12:23,443 Are there scenarios, or are there models where that child 260 00:12:23,443 --> 00:12:25,378 some-10, 15, however many years later, 261 00:12:25,378 --> 00:12:28,348 5 years later, comes out and re-enters society successfully? 262 00:12:28,348 --> 00:12:30,149 - Absolutely. 263 00:12:30,149 --> 00:12:32,719 There's no one-set model that fits everywhere. 264 00:12:32,719 --> 00:12:35,455 There is a lot of research, there's a lot of what we know 265 00:12:35,455 --> 00:12:37,724 about effectively responding to trauma. 266 00:12:37,724 --> 00:12:39,759 And juvenile court has been anchored to this idea of 267 00:12:39,759 --> 00:12:42,795 rehabilitation for a hundred years now. 268 00:12:42,795 --> 00:12:46,332 There are absolutely things we can do through the state systems 269 00:12:46,332 --> 00:12:49,736 that are used to, when children are committed 270 00:12:49,736 --> 00:12:52,305 to the care of the state. 271 00:12:53,506 --> 00:12:55,775 If we want to get really serious about that behavior, 272 00:12:55,775 --> 00:12:58,077 then we have to go all the way back. 273 00:12:58,077 --> 00:13:01,781 What we now know about the impact of toxic stress on kids, 274 00:13:01,781 --> 00:13:04,017 from the point of conception all the way forward, 275 00:13:04,017 --> 00:13:05,985 that needs to be our focus. 276 00:13:05,985 --> 00:13:09,022 We're not going to make this a safer community by who we pick 277 00:13:09,022 --> 00:13:11,658 up and how we respond to bad behavior. 278 00:13:11,658 --> 00:13:14,727 Over the next 20, 30 years we make it a safer more prosperous 279 00:13:14,727 --> 00:13:17,997 community if we can get about the business of growing 280 00:13:17,997 --> 00:13:19,766 healthier children. 281 00:13:19,766 --> 00:13:21,467 - Bill. 282 00:13:21,467 --> 00:13:23,870 - Let's move back to the other side of the public defenders 283 00:13:23,870 --> 00:13:28,307 office work, in the adult criminal justice system. 284 00:13:28,307 --> 00:13:32,945 Where do you think we are at the end of your term, 285 00:13:32,945 --> 00:13:36,549 with so much discussion about everything from suspended 286 00:13:36,549 --> 00:13:41,421 drivers licenses and the impacts that they have, 287 00:13:41,421 --> 00:13:44,490 to what's happening in the Shelby County Jail, 288 00:13:44,490 --> 00:13:47,627 and it's not over-crowding to the degree we've seen it before, 289 00:13:47,627 --> 00:13:49,962 but certainly there are some concerns that the jail 290 00:13:49,962 --> 00:13:52,632 population is rising. 291 00:13:52,632 --> 00:13:55,501 - I would say that the jail population concerns may be 292 00:13:55,501 --> 00:13:57,970 the priority issue for the incoming mayor elect, 293 00:13:57,970 --> 00:14:02,008 and the incoming sheriff, and the new leadership on 294 00:14:02,008 --> 00:14:03,976 the Board of County Commissioners. 295 00:14:03,976 --> 00:14:06,279 While it may not be as high as it's been before, 296 00:14:06,279 --> 00:14:09,082 the trajectory over the last four or five years, 297 00:14:09,082 --> 00:14:12,485 this could be the all-consuming, most expensive problem facing 298 00:14:12,485 --> 00:14:14,554 new leadership. 299 00:14:14,554 --> 00:14:16,723 So it does need to be a high priority as the new 300 00:14:16,723 --> 00:14:18,658 administration comes in. 301 00:14:18,658 --> 00:14:21,794 Arrests, physical arrests have been declining since 2014. 302 00:14:21,794 --> 00:14:24,263 We've seen fewer people arrested into the system, 303 00:14:24,263 --> 00:14:26,165 but they're staying longer. 304 00:14:26,165 --> 00:14:28,334 And jail population has reached a critical level, 305 00:14:28,334 --> 00:14:30,269 no question. 306 00:14:30,269 --> 00:14:33,773 - So is this decisions that prosecuters are making, 307 00:14:33,773 --> 00:14:37,510 or is this just the way that the system overall works? 308 00:14:38,778 --> 00:14:41,881 - Prosecuters have a lot of discretion in how they choose 309 00:14:41,881 --> 00:14:44,016 to prosecute cases. 310 00:14:44,016 --> 00:14:46,919 But that's not the only factor, there are a lot of factors that 311 00:14:46,919 --> 00:14:50,256 are driving the dynamics between jail poplulation. 312 00:14:50,256 --> 00:14:52,191 And it's very simple, it's two things. 313 00:14:52,191 --> 00:14:55,128 The number of people arrested, and how long they stay. 314 00:14:56,496 --> 00:14:58,998 And we need to look closely at the complex drivers behind that. 315 00:14:58,998 --> 00:15:01,467 There are a lot of solutions that have been laid in front of 316 00:15:01,467 --> 00:15:04,470 the County through this, the MacArthur Foundation Safety 317 00:15:04,470 --> 00:15:08,608 and Justice work here, but we haven't had the right leadership 318 00:15:08,608 --> 00:15:10,743 to be able to do anything with them. 319 00:15:10,743 --> 00:15:12,912 There should be a focus on bail reform. 320 00:15:12,912 --> 00:15:15,982 And Just City has been involved in highlighting this problem. 321 00:15:15,982 --> 00:15:17,884 There are things we can do. 322 00:15:17,884 --> 00:15:20,520 No one should be in the jail just because they're too poor 323 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,855 to post a low bond. 324 00:15:22,855 --> 00:15:26,926 Jail, where people are before they are tried and convicted or 325 00:15:26,926 --> 00:15:29,495 acquitted needs to be reserved for people who are too dangerous 326 00:15:29,495 --> 00:15:31,664 to be released. 327 00:15:31,664 --> 00:15:33,766 - Correlation, and then I'll go back to Bill. 328 00:15:33,766 --> 00:15:36,335 The low bail presumption is that it's not a violent criminal, 329 00:15:36,335 --> 00:15:38,204 it's not someone who's a danger to society. 330 00:15:38,204 --> 00:15:40,239 - That's right. - Is that the correlation? 331 00:15:40,239 --> 00:15:42,475 - Well, first, and we don't have time to unpack it here, 332 00:15:42,475 --> 00:15:45,511 cash bail doesn't work. 333 00:15:45,511 --> 00:15:47,713 You can be the most dangerous person in the world, 334 00:15:47,713 --> 00:15:50,016 and if you can afford to make bail you're out. 335 00:15:50,016 --> 00:15:51,684 But if you're poor, you're not. 336 00:15:51,684 --> 00:15:54,320 And the vast majority of people in our jail waiting for their 337 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,622 day in court are poor. 338 00:15:56,622 --> 00:15:58,291 There are better options. 339 00:15:58,291 --> 00:16:01,093 - And the vast majority have committed misdemeanors? 340 00:16:01,093 --> 00:16:05,364 - Midsdemeanors is a significant flow into the jail. 341 00:16:05,364 --> 00:16:07,533 That's probably not the area that's driving your jail 342 00:16:07,533 --> 00:16:09,602 population right now. 343 00:16:10,770 --> 00:16:13,873 You need to be looking at your in-custody felony detainees. 344 00:16:13,873 --> 00:16:16,042 The number of people who have been in the jail for more than 345 00:16:16,042 --> 00:16:19,478 500 days has doubled over the last year. 346 00:16:20,646 --> 00:16:22,181 - And about how many people is that? 347 00:16:22,181 --> 00:16:24,083 A couple hundred? A thousand? 348 00:16:24,083 --> 00:16:25,618 - I don't have the numbers right in front of me, 349 00:16:25,618 --> 00:16:27,553 but-- - Under a thousand? 350 00:16:27,553 --> 00:16:29,755 - What's interesting to me is that the public defenders office 351 00:16:29,755 --> 00:16:33,226 only represents 22, 23, 24% of those individuals. 352 00:16:33,226 --> 00:16:36,462 The rest of them are represented by private attorneys. 353 00:16:36,462 --> 00:16:38,898 Many of them appointed council. 354 00:16:38,898 --> 00:16:40,833 There are things that we can do, but these, 355 00:16:40,833 --> 00:16:42,735 there's no low-hanging fruit. 356 00:16:42,735 --> 00:16:46,105 These are difficult problems that will require people diving 357 00:16:46,105 --> 00:16:48,708 in deep to do the hard work to get to the solutions. 358 00:16:50,109 --> 00:16:52,278 - Back to Bill, ten minutes left. 359 00:16:52,278 --> 00:16:56,048 - And we're talking about people staying in that system too long, 360 00:16:57,149 --> 00:17:00,086 but for far different reasons than with juveniles in the 361 00:17:01,587 --> 00:17:03,756 juvenile system. 362 00:17:05,958 --> 00:17:10,196 But the city has a historic problem with violent crime. 363 00:17:12,365 --> 00:17:16,903 And a lot of times people will say the only solution to that is 364 00:17:16,903 --> 00:17:20,406 to keep these people from harming other people. 365 00:17:22,942 --> 00:17:26,546 - And you're... who is in jail, should be 366 00:17:26,546 --> 00:17:29,382 driven by that type of risk. 367 00:17:29,382 --> 00:17:32,184 That, if someone poses that type of risk to the community, 368 00:17:32,184 --> 00:17:34,587 that person should be in jail. 369 00:17:34,587 --> 00:17:37,123 - And they're not at this point in August? 370 00:17:37,123 --> 00:17:39,592 - Many of them are, but it is a matter of wealth, 371 00:17:39,592 --> 00:17:41,994 not risk that drives that. 372 00:17:44,330 --> 00:17:47,199 - Your office also, and you brought this up, 373 00:17:47,199 --> 00:17:50,002 if there is a case where your office is representing one 374 00:17:50,002 --> 00:17:54,874 defendant in that case, and there may be three or four 375 00:17:54,874 --> 00:17:57,443 co-defendants, your office then, 376 00:17:57,443 --> 00:17:59,845 because of our criminal proceedures cannot represent 377 00:17:59,845 --> 00:18:02,782 the others because that would be a conflict. 378 00:18:02,782 --> 00:18:05,551 - That's been how, based on how we've been traditionally 379 00:18:05,551 --> 00:18:08,220 structured, there have been limits on how you can use your 380 00:18:08,220 --> 00:18:09,956 public defense system. 381 00:18:09,956 --> 00:18:12,191 There are other models in other places, 382 00:18:12,191 --> 00:18:14,360 and some of the recommendations that were before the general 383 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:16,662 assembly, and that may be coming in this next cycle, 384 00:18:16,662 --> 00:18:22,601 could offer other solutions to broaden how we use our systems 385 00:18:22,601 --> 00:18:24,770 for public defense. 386 00:18:24,770 --> 00:18:28,107 - Something like a firewall between the different defenders? 387 00:18:28,107 --> 00:18:30,710 - There are single agency models, 388 00:18:30,710 --> 00:18:32,645 there was a proposal that we thought was coming forward this 389 00:18:32,645 --> 00:18:35,581 year to create a conflict defender office here. 390 00:18:35,581 --> 00:18:38,684 We need to make sure that people aren't languishing in jail. 391 00:18:38,684 --> 00:18:40,886 Everyone needs their day in court. 392 00:18:40,886 --> 00:18:42,888 And for people who have committed serious 393 00:18:42,888 --> 00:18:45,358 and violent offences, there's no reason for anyone 394 00:18:45,358 --> 00:18:48,761 to be in jail for more than 500 days without 395 00:18:49,929 --> 00:18:52,264 having an opportunity for their day in court. 396 00:18:53,866 --> 00:18:55,968 - What is the Jericho Project? 397 00:18:55,968 --> 00:18:59,839 - The Jericho Project is some work that is approaching its 398 00:18:59,839 --> 00:19:01,440 20th anniversary actually. 399 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,542 This grew out of the last Department of Justice engagement 400 00:19:03,542 --> 00:19:05,611 with the jail. 401 00:19:05,611 --> 00:19:09,148 And it was our effort to represent people who were 402 00:19:09,148 --> 00:19:12,752 cycling through the criminal justice system who live with 403 00:19:12,752 --> 00:19:16,522 serious mental illness, to represent them the way people of 404 00:19:16,522 --> 00:19:18,457 means are represented. 405 00:19:18,457 --> 00:19:20,292 - Which means, what? 406 00:19:20,292 --> 00:19:24,163 - Really good lawyering tied to the ability to access important 407 00:19:24,163 --> 00:19:26,565 supports and services in the community. 408 00:19:28,300 --> 00:19:30,403 We know how to turn on social security, 409 00:19:30,403 --> 00:19:31,804 we know how to navigate Medicaid. 410 00:19:31,804 --> 00:19:33,406 We know how to navigate housing. 411 00:19:33,406 --> 00:19:35,975 And we've been able to put together plans for individuals 412 00:19:35,975 --> 00:19:38,811 who once they are 413 00:19:41,714 --> 00:19:44,216 stable enough, and willing to engage, 414 00:19:44,216 --> 00:19:46,185 can actually have dramatic positive results. 415 00:19:46,185 --> 00:19:49,388 It's gotten a lot of accolades over the years, 416 00:19:49,388 --> 00:19:53,159 and even an award from the American Association 417 00:19:53,159 --> 00:19:55,061 of Prosecuting Attorneys. 418 00:19:55,061 --> 00:19:56,796 - And you were instrumental, 419 00:19:56,796 --> 00:19:58,531 you're being a little bit modest. You were, this was 420 00:19:58,531 --> 00:20:00,800 your project. 421 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,435 - Mayor Wharton was Chief Public Defender at the time, 422 00:20:02,435 --> 00:20:04,070 Mayor Luttrell was Sheriff at the time, 423 00:20:04,070 --> 00:20:06,105 and there was a lot of cross-line support for figuring 424 00:20:06,105 --> 00:20:08,174 out how to do this. 425 00:20:08,174 --> 00:20:09,642 And I've been amazed at the success of it. 426 00:20:09,642 --> 00:20:11,544 It's low-cost, it's a different model then specialty courts, 427 00:20:11,544 --> 00:20:13,546 and high impact. 428 00:20:13,546 --> 00:20:16,849 And what we should take from those learnings is that there 429 00:20:16,849 --> 00:20:20,052 are ways that the justice system can became a full partner in the 430 00:20:20,052 --> 00:20:22,621 public health cycle of care. 431 00:20:22,621 --> 00:20:26,325 And future leadership should pick up on the lessons learned 432 00:20:26,325 --> 00:20:28,260 from Jericho. 433 00:20:28,260 --> 00:20:29,962 - Bill, referenced this somewhat, 434 00:20:29,962 --> 00:20:31,764 and we've talked about it before, 435 00:20:31,764 --> 00:20:33,432 any number of times with the Justice City folks, 436 00:20:33,432 --> 00:20:35,167 with Harold Collins from Operation Safe Community, 437 00:20:35,167 --> 00:20:37,436 former City Councilman, the role of fines. 438 00:20:37,436 --> 00:20:39,972 I think that nationally, or maybe it's just my awakening 439 00:20:39,972 --> 00:20:43,175 to it, but you see more and more that fines that perhaps 440 00:20:43,175 --> 00:20:45,978 you and I would sort of be annoyed to pay for 441 00:20:45,978 --> 00:20:48,514 an expired license, a couple hundred dollars or something, 442 00:20:48,514 --> 00:20:52,685 that add up for the working poor for people for whom that is an 443 00:20:54,186 --> 00:20:56,922 insurmountable dollar amount who end up in jail. 444 00:20:56,922 --> 00:21:00,826 What should be done about how fines are assessed? 445 00:21:01,460 --> 00:21:04,230 For again, we're talking low level offenders, 446 00:21:05,631 --> 00:21:07,266 low level offenses like broken tail lights, 447 00:21:07,266 --> 00:21:10,202 expired licenses, what should that approach be, 448 00:21:10,202 --> 00:21:12,171 versus what it is now? 449 00:21:12,171 --> 00:21:14,507 - We should fundamentally re-think using the justice 450 00:21:14,507 --> 00:21:17,443 system as creating revenue streams for other things. 451 00:21:17,443 --> 00:21:20,412 It doesn't work, it really doesn't work in communities that 452 00:21:20,412 --> 00:21:23,682 are as poor who are trying to grapple with intractable poverty 453 00:21:23,682 --> 00:21:25,518 as we are in Memphis. 454 00:21:25,518 --> 00:21:27,219 This is one of the things that Just City has been successful 455 00:21:27,219 --> 00:21:29,054 at shining a light on. 456 00:21:29,054 --> 00:21:31,357 And not just Just City alone, but with partners like 457 00:21:31,357 --> 00:21:35,895 Baker Donelson, they challanged a change in state law regarding 458 00:21:35,895 --> 00:21:37,830 drivers licenses and suspending them 459 00:21:37,830 --> 00:21:40,332 because of unpaid court costs. 460 00:21:40,332 --> 00:21:42,401 - And the time it takes, Josh Spickler from Just City will 461 00:21:42,401 --> 00:21:44,370 point out, Harold will point out that the time it takes to go and 462 00:21:44,370 --> 00:21:47,573 get those things taken care of when you've got an hourly job 463 00:21:47,573 --> 00:21:49,275 that you might get fired from for missing work. 464 00:21:49,275 --> 00:21:51,277 - This is what I would challange new leadership to do. 465 00:21:51,277 --> 00:21:53,379 Look at the amount of money on the books. 466 00:21:53,379 --> 00:21:55,447 It's uncollectable, it's never going to be collected, 467 00:21:55,447 --> 00:21:57,149 it's pennies on the dollar. 468 00:21:57,149 --> 00:21:59,718 Look at what it costs to maintain the books, 469 00:21:59,718 --> 00:22:02,688 and start re-thinking whether or not we need to be focusing on 470 00:22:04,290 --> 00:22:06,058 costs, fees, and fines. 471 00:22:06,058 --> 00:22:07,827 - You talk about new leadership, that would be, 472 00:22:07,827 --> 00:22:09,528 those kinds of things could be done by County Commission, 473 00:22:09,528 --> 00:22:11,964 by City Council, or does it take the State legislature to do it? 474 00:22:11,964 --> 00:22:14,867 - Both, you know, local justice policy is driven by local 475 00:22:14,867 --> 00:22:18,571 decisions, and State decisions, not Federal. 476 00:22:18,571 --> 00:22:20,506 And that's one of the reasons that I think Just City is so 477 00:22:20,506 --> 00:22:23,042 important to this community, that there's an independent 478 00:22:23,042 --> 00:22:26,412 voice that's shining a light on important justice issues. 479 00:22:26,412 --> 00:22:30,716 What they've done to highlight the problem of girls being held 480 00:22:30,716 --> 00:22:34,220 in state penitentiaries until they have their day in court, 481 00:22:34,220 --> 00:22:36,021 is incredibly important. 482 00:22:36,021 --> 00:22:38,624 What they've done to shine a light on the importance of 483 00:22:38,624 --> 00:22:40,859 expungement to clear the record of people, 484 00:22:40,859 --> 00:22:44,363 to begin to reduce the lifetime consequences of one bump against 485 00:22:44,363 --> 00:22:46,432 the system. 486 00:22:46,432 --> 00:22:48,334 These are the types of things that we have to do in this 487 00:22:48,334 --> 00:22:51,971 community if we are going to be able to grapple with this 488 00:22:51,971 --> 00:22:54,607 intractable multi-generational poverty. 489 00:22:56,141 --> 00:22:57,710 - You mention the new leadership, 490 00:22:57,710 --> 00:22:59,578 and we're going to take just a couple of minutes 491 00:22:59,578 --> 00:23:01,280 at the end here. 492 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,749 Last week's show we taped on Thursday, 493 00:23:03,749 --> 00:23:05,684 the election was Thursday night, and give, 494 00:23:05,684 --> 00:23:08,053 Bill, maybe a quick walk through of some of the results of the 495 00:23:08,053 --> 00:23:09,855 election, probably most people have read them. 496 00:23:09,855 --> 00:23:11,523 But also, what's on the ballot because we're not done. 497 00:23:11,523 --> 00:23:14,627 There's yet another election date coming up in November. 498 00:23:14,627 --> 00:23:17,062 What's on that ballot, and who will be running? 499 00:23:18,097 --> 00:23:19,665 - Alright, the August 2nd elections, 500 00:23:19,665 --> 00:23:22,234 a new County Mayor was elected, that was going to be the case, 501 00:23:22,234 --> 00:23:25,037 that person is Lee Harris, the Democratic nominee. 502 00:23:26,872 --> 00:23:29,041 - Who will be coming on the show next week, actually. 503 00:23:29,041 --> 00:23:31,577 - Ok, who will be on the show next week, 504 00:23:31,577 --> 00:23:35,047 and we also have eight new Shelby County commissioners. 505 00:23:35,047 --> 00:23:39,118 And we also have an eight vote Democratic majority on the 506 00:23:39,118 --> 00:23:41,754 County Commission as a result of an election in which Democrats 507 00:23:41,754 --> 00:23:45,991 swept every county wide office on the ballot, 508 00:23:45,991 --> 00:23:48,861 much different results than the last two elections in this 509 00:23:48,861 --> 00:23:50,462 cycle. 510 00:23:50,462 --> 00:23:52,698 - Before you go to the next, they will be seated in January? 511 00:23:52,698 --> 00:23:55,834 - No. Septemeber first. - Like I said, September. 512 00:23:55,834 --> 00:23:58,037 - Everybody begins their term of office. 513 00:23:58,037 --> 00:24:01,640 And the next election is the November 6th election, 514 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,911 the folks that you voted for in the State and Federal primaries 515 00:24:05,911 --> 00:24:08,414 are on the ballot for their general election 516 00:24:08,414 --> 00:24:10,916 on November 6th, the race for Governor 517 00:24:10,916 --> 00:24:14,186 will be decided between the two nominees, and other 518 00:24:14,186 --> 00:24:16,588 independent contenders, the U.S. Senate seat that 519 00:24:16,588 --> 00:24:18,957 Bob Corker is leaving is on there, 520 00:24:18,957 --> 00:24:22,127 all 14 of the State House seats covering Shelby County, 521 00:24:22,127 --> 00:24:25,931 3 of the 5 State Senate Seats that cover Shelby County, 522 00:24:25,931 --> 00:24:29,935 and just for fun, three charter amendments to the City charter. 523 00:24:29,935 --> 00:24:32,204 - Do you want to try to name off those city charter amendments, 524 00:24:32,204 --> 00:24:33,906 or should we not go there. 525 00:24:33,906 --> 00:24:35,574 - Let's not go there. [chuckling] 526 00:24:35,574 --> 00:24:37,843 - People should go and look those up. 527 00:24:37,843 --> 00:24:39,712 But we wanted to be sure we touched on that, 528 00:24:39,712 --> 00:24:42,581 and again, we look forward to having incoming County Mayor 529 00:24:42,581 --> 00:24:44,717 Lee Harris next week. 530 00:24:44,717 --> 00:24:47,753 To your, again, as we said at the top of the show, 531 00:24:47,753 --> 00:24:51,290 the... Lee Harris will nominate your successor, 532 00:24:51,290 --> 00:24:54,460 the County Commission will vote on that. 533 00:24:54,460 --> 00:24:57,663 You've talked a little bit about what you would like to see those 534 00:24:57,663 --> 00:24:59,565 folks do, you've talked a lot about what you'd like to see 535 00:24:59,565 --> 00:25:02,668 those folks pursue. But what is next for you, 536 00:25:02,668 --> 00:25:04,770 after 27 years in the public defender's office? 537 00:25:04,770 --> 00:25:07,706 - I have only made one committment for after 538 00:25:08,807 --> 00:25:12,010 I step down, and that's to my wife. 539 00:25:12,010 --> 00:25:14,313 That I would take a sabbatical. 540 00:25:14,313 --> 00:25:17,116 I grew up in a clergy family, my dad is an Episcopal priest, 541 00:25:17,116 --> 00:25:20,285 and every seven years we force our priests to go 542 00:25:20,285 --> 00:25:22,121 and take a sabbatical. 543 00:25:22,121 --> 00:25:25,357 And he would come back rested and rejuvenated and I am looking 544 00:25:25,357 --> 00:25:28,026 forward to that time. 545 00:25:28,026 --> 00:25:31,864 I am proud to leave to Mayor Harris and other leaders a 546 00:25:31,864 --> 00:25:37,002 well-functioning law firm full of dedicated professionals, 547 00:25:37,002 --> 00:25:39,405 many of whom were students of 548 00:25:39,405 --> 00:25:42,808 Professor/Senator Mayor-Elect Harris. 549 00:25:42,808 --> 00:25:46,278 So I think the future is bright as this work moves forward. 550 00:25:47,746 --> 00:25:50,015 - I hadn't thought about that, because Mayor Wharton, 551 00:25:50,015 --> 00:25:51,517 and I think Kelly Rayne, who you mentioned, 552 00:25:51,517 --> 00:25:53,952 the former County Attorney, she got involved 553 00:25:53,952 --> 00:25:55,821 with public defense, and all these kinds of things 554 00:25:55,821 --> 00:25:57,256 because she was a student of Wharton's, I believe 555 00:25:57,256 --> 00:25:58,857 at Ole Miss, right? 556 00:25:58,857 --> 00:26:01,026 - You know a lot of our alumni have moved forward to do all 557 00:26:01,026 --> 00:26:03,295 sorts of good and important work, 558 00:26:03,295 --> 00:26:06,965 and we've been able to recruit some of the finest young lawyers 559 00:26:06,965 --> 00:26:09,268 from schools across the country. 560 00:26:09,268 --> 00:26:12,471 Yale, NYU, Chicago, Northwestern, 561 00:26:12,471 --> 00:26:15,574 but also the best and brightest from the University of Memphis. 562 00:26:15,574 --> 00:26:17,776 There's a lot of talent there, and I look forward to seeing 563 00:26:17,776 --> 00:26:19,445 what they do. 564 00:26:19,445 --> 00:26:21,380 - Ok. Thank you for being here, sorry to cut you off. 565 00:26:21,380 --> 00:26:23,315 Thank you Bill, and thank you for joining us, 566 00:26:23,315 --> 00:26:26,218 join us again, next week. 567 00:26:26,218 --> 00:26:29,221 [dramatic orchestral music] 568 00:26:36,829 --> 00:26:38,831 [acoustic guitar chords]