1 00:00:00,467 --> 00:00:01,435 - (female announcer)   Production funding for 2 00:00:01,435 --> 00:00:04,771 Behind the Headlines   is made possible in part by 3 00:00:04,771 --> 00:00:06,807 the WKNO Production Fund, 4 00:00:06,807 --> 00:00:09,009 the WKNO Endowment Fund 5 00:00:09,009 --> 00:00:12,446 and by viewers   like you, thank you. 6 00:00:12,446 --> 00:00:16,049 - The debate over tax incentives and economic development 7 00:00:16,049 --> 00:00:18,418 tonight on Behind the Headlines. 8 00:00:18,418 --> 00:00:20,988 [intense orchestral music] 9 00:00:35,469 --> 00:00:37,137 I'm Eric Barnes of The Daily Memphian. 10 00:00:37,137 --> 00:00:38,605 Thanks for joining us. 11 00:00:38,605 --> 00:00:40,841 I am joined tonight by Martavius Jones 12 00:00:40,841 --> 00:00:43,076 from the Memphis City Council. 13 00:00:43,076 --> 00:00:44,111 Councilman, thanks for being here. 14 00:00:44,111 --> 00:00:45,379 - Thank you for having me. 15 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,316 - Along with Tami Sawyer, from the Shelby County Commission. 16 00:00:49,316 --> 00:00:51,051 Commissioner Sawyer, thank you for being here. 17 00:00:51,051 --> 00:00:53,053 - Thank you so much for having me. 18 00:00:53,053 --> 00:00:54,288 - Along with Bill Dries, 19 00:00:54,288 --> 00:00:56,790 reporter with, The Daily Memphian. 20 00:00:56,790 --> 00:01:00,394 We are talking today about this conversation, this debate 21 00:01:00,394 --> 00:01:01,962 that has been going on as long as we've been doing 22 00:01:01,962 --> 00:01:04,031 Behind the Headlines and certainly before that, 23 00:01:04,031 --> 00:01:05,899 about how the County, the City, 24 00:01:05,899 --> 00:01:08,769 the region does tax incentives. 25 00:01:08,769 --> 00:01:12,306 Scheduling note that we taped this before a joint meeting 26 00:01:12,306 --> 00:01:13,941 of the City Council and the County Commission 27 00:01:13,941 --> 00:01:15,876 that happened the day before this airs. 28 00:01:15,876 --> 00:01:17,377 And also last week, 29 00:01:17,377 --> 00:01:20,013 we did a show with Reid Dulberger from EDGE, 30 00:01:20,013 --> 00:01:21,848 which is the entity that administers 31 00:01:21,848 --> 00:01:23,784 many of the tax incentives in town. 32 00:01:23,784 --> 00:01:26,286 As well as Worth Morgan, a City Councilman 33 00:01:26,286 --> 00:01:27,554 who would like to streamline 34 00:01:27,554 --> 00:01:28,989 and change in probably a different direction 35 00:01:28,989 --> 00:01:30,657 than I believe the two guests today. 36 00:01:30,657 --> 00:01:34,061 And that show is available online at wkno.org. 37 00:01:34,061 --> 00:01:36,730 But I will start with you Councilman Jones, 38 00:01:38,031 --> 00:01:41,368 what are you calling for in terms of changes 39 00:01:41,368 --> 00:01:44,604 to how PILOTs and other tax incentives happen? 40 00:01:46,106 --> 00:01:49,109 - First Eric I think we need to have the discussion 41 00:01:49,109 --> 00:01:52,145 and review of the EDGE Board. 42 00:01:52,145 --> 00:01:56,483 EDGE was constituted for approximately 10 years ago. 43 00:01:56,483 --> 00:01:58,952 And we need to as the elected officials 44 00:01:58,952 --> 00:02:01,154 that delegated our responsibility 45 00:02:01,154 --> 00:02:02,856 the County Commission and the City Council 46 00:02:02,856 --> 00:02:05,158 I think we need to have a discussion to see 47 00:02:05,158 --> 00:02:08,829 if we're satisfied with what the results have been, 48 00:02:08,829 --> 00:02:11,264 if there are any adjustments that are necessary 49 00:02:11,264 --> 00:02:14,301 and how do we move forward? 50 00:02:14,301 --> 00:02:16,903 You know, I look back at what may have been 51 00:02:16,903 --> 00:02:19,272 the major employment wins 52 00:02:19,272 --> 00:02:21,208 and they seem to have been short lived 53 00:02:21,208 --> 00:02:23,010 when it comes to the incentive. 54 00:02:23,010 --> 00:02:25,178 The most recent being ServiceMaster. 55 00:02:25,178 --> 00:02:28,181 But when we talk about Electrolux and Mitsubishi 56 00:02:28,181 --> 00:02:30,283 some of the ones that received 57 00:02:30,283 --> 00:02:31,918 some of the greatest incentives, 58 00:02:31,918 --> 00:02:33,487 they didn't seem to last long. 59 00:02:33,487 --> 00:02:34,688 So I don't think that we're getting 60 00:02:34,688 --> 00:02:36,590 and those are just the high profile ones 61 00:02:36,590 --> 00:02:38,392 the ones that make the headlines. 62 00:02:38,392 --> 00:02:41,028 I'm of the opinion we're not getting the results 63 00:02:41,028 --> 00:02:43,063 that were intended. 64 00:02:43,063 --> 00:02:46,900 - And are you calling for, when you talk about the vote 65 00:02:46,900 --> 00:02:50,370 and the Council to have a vote on specific projects 66 00:02:50,370 --> 00:02:52,439 that do and don't get incentives, 67 00:02:52,439 --> 00:02:53,940 or did I misunderstand you? 68 00:02:53,940 --> 00:02:56,410 - Yes and so there's, you know 69 00:02:56,410 --> 00:02:57,978 there are a number of different factors 70 00:02:57,978 --> 00:03:01,681 when these PILOTs and these others incentives are being, 71 00:03:01,681 --> 00:03:03,383 when they're being evaluated. 72 00:03:03,383 --> 00:03:07,687 You know, there's one that generally a cost-benefit ratio. 73 00:03:07,687 --> 00:03:11,491 And so if one has a cost-benefit ratio less than one 74 00:03:11,491 --> 00:03:13,593 that means that it's costing us 75 00:03:13,593 --> 00:03:15,529 more than it's benefiting us. 76 00:03:15,529 --> 00:03:18,331 And I think that if we're gonna enter into an arrangement 77 00:03:18,331 --> 00:03:22,669 where we have that negative cost-benefit, 78 00:03:22,669 --> 00:03:25,505 I think the elected officials need to know why 79 00:03:25,505 --> 00:03:27,541 and we need to be the ones approving it 80 00:03:27,541 --> 00:03:29,443 because we're the ones who are directly accountable 81 00:03:29,443 --> 00:03:30,677 to the taxpayers. 82 00:03:30,677 --> 00:03:31,711 And that's just one aspect of it. 83 00:03:31,711 --> 00:03:33,046 - Got it. 84 00:03:33,046 --> 00:03:35,382 And Tami Sawyer from your perspective, 85 00:03:35,382 --> 00:03:37,517 what sort of changes are you calling for? 86 00:03:38,985 --> 00:03:41,822 - There's two major things that I'm looking at Eric. 87 00:03:41,822 --> 00:03:44,825 First with the tax incentives 88 00:03:44,825 --> 00:03:48,595 that we give as a County and as a City, 89 00:03:48,595 --> 00:03:50,797 me being a resident of Memphis, 90 00:03:50,797 --> 00:03:54,234 I believe that the incentives that come through 91 00:03:54,234 --> 00:03:58,472 need to have community investments attached to them. 92 00:03:58,472 --> 00:04:02,109 Currently, we give this incentives out willy-nilly 93 00:04:02,109 --> 00:04:05,212 with no requirement to invest in our schools, 94 00:04:05,212 --> 00:04:10,217 our roads, you know and it remains a continuous issue. 95 00:04:11,418 --> 00:04:14,121 We say that we need to incentivize businesses 96 00:04:14,121 --> 00:04:15,489 choosing Memphis. 97 00:04:15,489 --> 00:04:17,324 And we blame our workforce. 98 00:04:17,324 --> 00:04:19,559 We say that we don't have a strong workforce. 99 00:04:19,559 --> 00:04:21,895 Remember up until three years ago, 100 00:04:21,895 --> 00:04:25,766 our city was marketed as one of the lowest wage, 101 00:04:26,933 --> 00:04:31,671 lowest places to pay wages in the country. 102 00:04:31,671 --> 00:04:36,676 And so what I would like to see is incentives redone, 103 00:04:37,811 --> 00:04:41,448 repackaged with some type of community fund 104 00:04:41,448 --> 00:04:45,886 requiring these companies, the larger ones especially. 105 00:04:47,454 --> 00:04:49,756 This is not necessarily focusing on 106 00:04:49,756 --> 00:04:53,460 small business development but on the larger companies 107 00:04:53,460 --> 00:04:57,097 to invest in the community, whether that be childcare, 108 00:04:57,097 --> 00:05:00,233 school systems, roads, et cetera. 109 00:05:00,233 --> 00:05:04,738 And then second to Councilman Jones' point. 110 00:05:04,738 --> 00:05:06,807 There needs to be more oversight. 111 00:05:06,807 --> 00:05:09,509 I actually would love to use my counterparts 112 00:05:09,509 --> 00:05:12,946 the Republicans talking points here 113 00:05:12,946 --> 00:05:16,483 where during the COVID crisis 114 00:05:16,483 --> 00:05:20,020 they have continuously shown chagrin 115 00:05:20,020 --> 00:05:22,556 for the role of the health department 116 00:05:22,556 --> 00:05:25,692 and said, "We are listening to non-elected people. 117 00:05:25,692 --> 00:05:28,962 Why are we allowing non-elected people to make decisions," 118 00:05:28,962 --> 00:05:31,198 and their attacks on the health department. 119 00:05:31,198 --> 00:05:34,668 Here we are putting our largest business decisions 120 00:05:34,668 --> 00:05:39,673 in the hands of EDGE and DMC who are extremely powerful 121 00:05:40,774 --> 00:05:42,275 and the average Memphian wouldn't even know 122 00:05:42,275 --> 00:05:45,779 what those acronyms mean and who runs them. 123 00:05:45,779 --> 00:05:49,049 - Yeah and EDGE is the Economic Development Growth Engine 124 00:05:49,049 --> 00:05:51,451 that again we had the CEO, President on last week 125 00:05:51,451 --> 00:05:53,753 and they administered the PILOTs, 126 00:05:53,753 --> 00:05:56,423 the payment in lieu of taxes, as well as some other grants. 127 00:05:56,423 --> 00:05:58,191 DMC is Downtown Memphis Commission, 128 00:05:58,191 --> 00:05:59,593 which is probably one of the biggest, 129 00:05:59,593 --> 00:06:01,394 if not the biggest incentive giver. 130 00:06:01,394 --> 00:06:02,762 One more question to you on what you just said 131 00:06:02,762 --> 00:06:04,130 and then we'll go to Bill. 132 00:06:04,130 --> 00:06:07,534 On this notion of investment so it is the idea 133 00:06:07,534 --> 00:06:10,537 that for a company to get say a PILOT, 134 00:06:10,537 --> 00:06:13,139 and you know, you're talking about larger companies, 135 00:06:13,139 --> 00:06:14,341 not small businesses. 136 00:06:14,341 --> 00:06:15,942 That they would also have to spend, 137 00:06:15,942 --> 00:06:19,012 commit to spending cash on say, schools or childcare, 138 00:06:19,012 --> 00:06:20,780 that there would be committed cash outlays on the part 139 00:06:20,780 --> 00:06:23,016 of the company that's being recruited? 140 00:06:24,417 --> 00:06:27,187 - Yes I mean, I haven't spelled the entire thing out 141 00:06:27,187 --> 00:06:30,357 but I do believe yes, that that is what's important. 142 00:06:30,357 --> 00:06:33,827 If you're coming here and you want the talent, right? 143 00:06:33,827 --> 00:06:36,930 ServiceMaster says they need to go to Atlanta, 144 00:06:36,930 --> 00:06:38,665 their new parent company 145 00:06:38,665 --> 00:06:41,901 "that's where the talent is," quote unquote. 146 00:06:41,901 --> 00:06:45,505 But you know, we know that the current statistic 147 00:06:45,505 --> 00:06:47,274 for our schools is we're graduating 148 00:06:47,274 --> 00:06:49,309 only a third of our students, 149 00:06:49,309 --> 00:06:52,312 prepared for work or college, right? 150 00:06:52,312 --> 00:06:55,515 And if we have all of these Fortune 500 companies 151 00:06:55,515 --> 00:06:58,485 and large businesses that are getting tax incentives 152 00:06:58,485 --> 00:07:02,922 and we're still producing low education for our students, 153 00:07:02,922 --> 00:07:05,025 they should have some type of commitment. 154 00:07:05,025 --> 00:07:06,926 If we're not gonna change our budget 155 00:07:06,926 --> 00:07:08,695 to invest in education, 156 00:07:08,695 --> 00:07:10,664 if we're gonna focus on business development, 157 00:07:10,664 --> 00:07:12,265 then the businesses should be required 158 00:07:12,265 --> 00:07:14,434 to invest in our youth. 159 00:07:14,434 --> 00:07:17,637 - And I think the proponents, and again, I'm sorry Bill. 160 00:07:17,637 --> 00:07:20,807 But the proponents of these incentives would say, 161 00:07:20,807 --> 00:07:22,475 "Well they are still paying property taxes 162 00:07:22,475 --> 00:07:24,744 and those property taxes do go to the schools." 163 00:07:24,744 --> 00:07:27,280 And the second perspective that they always have 164 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:29,282 to think into something like that is 165 00:07:29,282 --> 00:07:30,884 they won't come to Memphis. 166 00:07:30,884 --> 00:07:33,486 They will go to another city or another state 167 00:07:33,486 --> 00:07:36,189 where they don't have to make those investments. 168 00:07:36,189 --> 00:07:39,693 Because it's all sort of the low cost choice 169 00:07:39,693 --> 00:07:41,728 in terms of what incentives are on the table 170 00:07:41,728 --> 00:07:45,065 because, you know thousands of entities around the country, 171 00:07:45,065 --> 00:07:46,800 cities, state and region 172 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:48,068 are doing these sorts of incentives. 173 00:07:48,068 --> 00:07:49,202 So again, your response to that 174 00:07:49,202 --> 00:07:51,037 and then Bill I promise I'll go to you. 175 00:07:51,037 --> 00:07:52,872 - Yeah, very quickly I would just say that 176 00:07:52,872 --> 00:07:54,574 if you look at what's happening 177 00:07:54,574 --> 00:07:56,576 with tax incentives across the country, 178 00:07:56,576 --> 00:07:59,879 reform is the word of the day. 179 00:07:59,879 --> 00:08:02,716 Boston is reforming their tax incentives 180 00:08:02,716 --> 00:08:05,318 to be more inclusive in the community. 181 00:08:05,318 --> 00:08:09,656 Washington, DC required 35% MWBE investment. 182 00:08:09,656 --> 00:08:12,892 That's investment in Minority and Women-owned Businesses 183 00:08:12,892 --> 00:08:15,061 for the building of the National Harbor. 184 00:08:15,061 --> 00:08:17,897 That was almost what a billion dollar development. 185 00:08:17,897 --> 00:08:21,401 And so when we say like, we can't make these requirements 186 00:08:21,401 --> 00:08:24,471 or people won't come, how does that work 187 00:08:24,471 --> 00:08:27,907 when we see major cities making changes 188 00:08:27,907 --> 00:08:29,676 that impact their community? 189 00:08:29,676 --> 00:08:32,078 San Antonio redid the entire system. 190 00:08:33,179 --> 00:08:36,049 You know, Atlanta where people were going, 191 00:08:36,049 --> 00:08:37,751 has requirements to invest 192 00:08:37,751 --> 00:08:41,020 in Minority-owned businesses in the communities. 193 00:08:41,020 --> 00:08:43,490 Memphis has low self-esteem when it comes to these things, 194 00:08:43,490 --> 00:08:44,991 we think we can't require things, 195 00:08:44,991 --> 00:08:46,493 or people won't come here, 196 00:08:46,493 --> 00:08:48,128 when everywhere else is like 197 00:08:48,128 --> 00:08:49,696 you're not gonna play my people like that. 198 00:08:49,696 --> 00:08:54,300 New York is requiring statewide 30% MWBE investment. 199 00:08:54,300 --> 00:08:56,503 And we're still like, "Oh, no." 200 00:08:56,503 --> 00:08:59,906 - Right, Bill go ahead. 201 00:08:59,906 --> 00:09:04,043 - Councilman, let me ask you about EDGE's 202 00:09:04,043 --> 00:09:05,245 current requirement, 203 00:09:05,245 --> 00:09:09,349 kind of the entry level requirement on wages 204 00:09:09,349 --> 00:09:12,786 which is $13 an hour plus employer 205 00:09:12,786 --> 00:09:17,357 subsidized health insurance or healthcare access. 206 00:09:18,758 --> 00:09:23,029 Is $13 an hour with that stipulation, is that enough? 207 00:09:23,029 --> 00:09:25,865 - No, frankly no. 208 00:09:25,865 --> 00:09:28,201 Just a few council meetings ago, 209 00:09:28,201 --> 00:09:31,237 Mrs. Beverly Robinson, who is the chair of the Chamber, 210 00:09:31,237 --> 00:09:33,973 provided a presentation to the Memphis City Council. 211 00:09:33,973 --> 00:09:38,978 And it indicated that for a single working person 212 00:09:40,113 --> 00:09:43,283 with one child, that the living wage 213 00:09:43,283 --> 00:09:46,219 is closer to $21 an hour. 214 00:09:46,219 --> 00:09:48,922 So I would contend that we are incentivizing 215 00:09:48,922 --> 00:09:50,857 our continued poverty 216 00:09:50,857 --> 00:09:55,428 if we look at and settle on $13 an hour as the floor 217 00:09:55,428 --> 00:09:57,564 as far as providing incentives. 218 00:09:57,564 --> 00:10:00,967 I by no means am I saying that we should do away 219 00:10:00,967 --> 00:10:02,368 with the incentives. 220 00:10:02,368 --> 00:10:04,504 I just think we need to be more deliberate, 221 00:10:04,504 --> 00:10:08,174 we need to set more direction of the types of employers 222 00:10:08,174 --> 00:10:11,377 and the types of industries that we incentivize. 223 00:10:11,377 --> 00:10:14,747 But clearly, $13 an hour is not enough. 224 00:10:14,747 --> 00:10:16,783 And we shouldn't be incentivizing. 225 00:10:16,783 --> 00:10:18,985 - Commissioner, what's your thought on this, 226 00:10:18,985 --> 00:10:22,722 is this all about a certain wage an hour? 227 00:10:22,722 --> 00:10:25,258 - That's a very important point absolutely. 228 00:10:26,392 --> 00:10:29,529 Thirteen dollars an hour is not minimum wage anymore. 229 00:10:29,529 --> 00:10:34,434 Fifteen dollars is minimum wage and we're very close to that 230 00:10:34,434 --> 00:10:36,970 not even being the talking point. 231 00:10:36,970 --> 00:10:39,138 We're looking at cities on the West Coast 232 00:10:39,138 --> 00:10:42,709 that are talking about $20 an hour. 233 00:10:42,709 --> 00:10:46,613 Banks are sending their minimum wages at $25 an hour. 234 00:10:46,613 --> 00:10:49,516 Bank of America just announced that by 2025 235 00:10:49,516 --> 00:10:52,218 they'll be at $25 an hour. 236 00:10:52,218 --> 00:10:55,555 And you know, people wanna make the argument 237 00:10:55,555 --> 00:10:58,992 that these are low talent jobs 238 00:10:58,992 --> 00:11:01,261 and why should they be required? 239 00:11:01,261 --> 00:11:04,230 And anyone who makes that statement, 240 00:11:04,230 --> 00:11:07,834 I would challenge them to throw boxes for eight hours 241 00:11:07,834 --> 00:11:11,404 in a crowded warehouse in the middle of a pandemic 242 00:11:11,404 --> 00:11:14,407 and not have childcare because you can't afford it 243 00:11:14,407 --> 00:11:18,378 on $7.50 or $12. 244 00:11:18,378 --> 00:11:21,080 - I think both of you have heard this argument 245 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,217 from Reid Dulberger, the President and CEO of EDGE. 246 00:11:24,217 --> 00:11:27,520 Who says, "We need to have a wide range of jobs" 247 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:32,458 "because if we just go after the higher paying jobs, 248 00:11:32,458 --> 00:11:34,594 "that we're going to leave people 249 00:11:34,594 --> 00:11:37,330 in the current labor market in Memphis out." 250 00:11:37,330 --> 00:11:40,466 Commissioner, what do you say to that? 251 00:11:42,168 --> 00:11:44,571 - You know, I'm doing better with my language. 252 00:11:44,571 --> 00:11:46,940 So the words that I would use about that 253 00:11:46,940 --> 00:11:49,642 I'm not going to use Bill. 254 00:11:49,642 --> 00:11:54,614 But I think that it is a silly argument. 255 00:11:55,982 --> 00:11:59,185 It's one of those arguments that makes it sound 256 00:11:59,185 --> 00:12:02,455 like you're invested in something when you're not. 257 00:12:02,455 --> 00:12:05,792 I don't think that by increasing wages, 258 00:12:05,792 --> 00:12:10,363 certain people aren't going to be included 259 00:12:10,363 --> 00:12:13,633 because there's often a profit margin that makes room 260 00:12:13,633 --> 00:12:15,168 for these wages. 261 00:12:15,168 --> 00:12:17,036 The reason that there's a national push 262 00:12:17,036 --> 00:12:19,272 for $15 an hour, Bill 263 00:12:19,272 --> 00:12:21,074 is because the minimum wage 264 00:12:21,074 --> 00:12:25,478 has not been increased in generations. 265 00:12:25,478 --> 00:12:29,582 People were still earning $7.50 as minimum wage 266 00:12:29,582 --> 00:12:31,351 when before I was born. 267 00:12:31,351 --> 00:12:35,588 And you know, I'm estimating here 268 00:12:35,588 --> 00:12:36,990 because I can't remember the year, 269 00:12:36,990 --> 00:12:39,125 but it's been a long time. [laughs] 270 00:12:39,125 --> 00:12:44,130 And you know, just considering that you know, 271 00:12:45,598 --> 00:12:49,302 the price of what a dollar is worth from 1982 to now, 272 00:12:50,470 --> 00:12:53,706 a dollar is almost worth $20 now. 273 00:12:53,706 --> 00:12:55,241 You can't walk into a store 274 00:12:55,241 --> 00:12:58,311 and buy something for a dollar, pretty much. 275 00:12:58,311 --> 00:13:01,314 And so we haven't changed minimum wage with, 276 00:13:01,314 --> 00:13:05,184 but we're still requiring people to live off of the days 277 00:13:05,184 --> 00:13:06,552 when you could get you know, 278 00:13:06,552 --> 00:13:09,088 a loaf of bread and milk for a dollar. 279 00:13:10,289 --> 00:13:13,092 - Councilman, your thoughts on this. 280 00:13:13,092 --> 00:13:15,862 Should economic development incentives 281 00:13:15,862 --> 00:13:20,266 be reserved just for new sectors in the economy 282 00:13:20,266 --> 00:13:22,368 and for the higher paying jobs? 283 00:13:23,770 --> 00:13:26,272 - On an incentive standpoint, yes. 284 00:13:26,272 --> 00:13:28,441 I think that there will always be 285 00:13:29,442 --> 00:13:33,579 a need for lower paying jobs 286 00:13:33,579 --> 00:13:37,617 and they will come to Memphis. 287 00:13:37,617 --> 00:13:40,253 But I just think that the incentives should be reserved 288 00:13:40,253 --> 00:13:45,258 for those higher wage industries and companies. 289 00:13:47,026 --> 00:13:49,095 - All right, Eric back to you. 290 00:13:52,198 --> 00:13:53,700 - Well for both of you, 291 00:13:53,700 --> 00:13:55,635 I'll just stay with you Martavius, Councilman Jones. 292 00:13:55,635 --> 00:13:59,539 The Mississippi factor comes up a lot, right? 293 00:13:59,539 --> 00:14:01,808 As does even Fayette County and Arkansas, 294 00:14:01,808 --> 00:14:03,342 but Mississippi is probably the number one. 295 00:14:03,342 --> 00:14:07,313 In terms of lower wage jobs, you know warehouse jobs, 296 00:14:07,313 --> 00:14:09,916 which often are a little bit more involved 297 00:14:09,916 --> 00:14:12,151 than we probably present them. 298 00:14:12,151 --> 00:14:16,055 But the argument is well if we don't offer these incentives, 299 00:14:16,055 --> 00:14:18,257 if we go too high on the minimum wage, 300 00:14:18,257 --> 00:14:20,059 if we go too high on the requirements, 301 00:14:20,059 --> 00:14:22,161 you can just go across the border 302 00:14:22,161 --> 00:14:25,498 and still have access to the airport, to FedEx, 303 00:14:25,498 --> 00:14:28,267 to our neighborhoods, to downtown, to Beale Street, 304 00:14:28,267 --> 00:14:30,336 to the Grizzlies, the Tigers, 305 00:14:30,336 --> 00:14:33,206 I mean all the sort of amenities that people sell 306 00:14:33,206 --> 00:14:34,974 and that people who live here love, 307 00:14:34,974 --> 00:14:38,111 you can take advantage of those by locating in Mississippi 308 00:14:38,111 --> 00:14:40,179 with far fewer restrictions and requirements 309 00:14:40,179 --> 00:14:43,416 and what the business people will say 310 00:14:43,416 --> 00:14:46,486 is a much more streamlined process. 311 00:14:46,486 --> 00:14:48,254 So it's not just competing against Boston 312 00:14:48,254 --> 00:14:49,422 and these other cities 313 00:14:49,422 --> 00:14:51,190 that Commissioner Sawyer has talked about 314 00:14:51,190 --> 00:14:52,658 where they've done reforms. 315 00:14:52,658 --> 00:14:55,394 Mississippi has not done those reforms as far as I know. 316 00:14:55,394 --> 00:14:56,896 And so people push back on that 317 00:14:56,896 --> 00:14:57,964 what's your response? 318 00:14:59,699 --> 00:15:01,734 - This goes back to the comment 319 00:15:01,734 --> 00:15:03,436 that Commissioner Sawyer made, 320 00:15:03,436 --> 00:15:06,506 about Memphis having a self-esteem problem. 321 00:15:06,506 --> 00:15:11,377 If Memphis feels that it needs to compete with Mississippi, 322 00:15:12,478 --> 00:15:14,514 rural areas, areas that are not developed, 323 00:15:14,514 --> 00:15:16,015 we have a self-esteem problem. 324 00:15:16,015 --> 00:15:17,049 We have a self-esteem problem 325 00:15:17,049 --> 00:15:18,951 if we think that that's the case. 326 00:15:18,951 --> 00:15:21,854 From the standpoint of warehouses, 327 00:15:21,854 --> 00:15:24,357 Memphis does not have hundreds 328 00:15:24,357 --> 00:15:28,027 or even thousands of parcels of undeveloped land. 329 00:15:28,027 --> 00:15:29,262 That's what you need 330 00:15:29,262 --> 00:15:33,699 for a 3, 4, 500,000 square-foot warehouse. 331 00:15:33,699 --> 00:15:35,501 That's gonna pay jobs that are, 332 00:15:36,803 --> 00:15:39,472 that they feel are competitive at $13 an hour. 333 00:15:39,472 --> 00:15:43,442 So my thing is when we talk about those jobs 334 00:15:43,442 --> 00:15:45,945 and the salaries that they demand or command, 335 00:15:47,079 --> 00:15:49,148 if we fill that we need to compete with that 336 00:15:49,148 --> 00:15:51,083 I think that we need somebody else at the helm 337 00:15:51,083 --> 00:15:54,787 who needs a better outlook and who's more optimistic 338 00:15:54,787 --> 00:15:58,324 about what Memphis can offer. 339 00:15:58,324 --> 00:16:00,560 And we need to be competing against cities 340 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,662 like Nashville, Charlotte, Austin, 341 00:16:02,662 --> 00:16:05,598 not DeSoto County, not Marshall County, 342 00:16:05,598 --> 00:16:08,467 Fayette or Crittenden County. 343 00:16:08,467 --> 00:16:10,336 - Commissioner Sawyer, I see you nodding again 344 00:16:10,336 --> 00:16:12,872 are you not worried about that pushback, 345 00:16:12,872 --> 00:16:16,142 the competition with Mississippi line that 346 00:16:16,142 --> 00:16:18,144 the business community often uses? 347 00:16:18,144 --> 00:16:20,446 - No you know, I agree again. 348 00:16:20,446 --> 00:16:24,016 It goes back to the self-esteem issue. 349 00:16:24,016 --> 00:16:27,520 Who are we as a city, who are we as a state? 350 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:29,622 There's a lot of things that Mississippi does 351 00:16:29,622 --> 00:16:31,824 that you know, are we going to, 352 00:16:31,824 --> 00:16:34,994 do we wanna be 50th in educating our children, 353 00:16:34,994 --> 00:16:38,130 do we wanna be 50th in our public health? 354 00:16:38,130 --> 00:16:41,767 You know, do we wanna have a month 355 00:16:41,767 --> 00:16:45,571 of lack of access to clean water as Jackson has right now, 356 00:16:45,571 --> 00:16:47,707 instead of two weeks like we had. 357 00:16:47,707 --> 00:16:50,042 You know, we could go on and on. 358 00:16:50,042 --> 00:16:52,678 But I think that again these are all arguments 359 00:16:52,678 --> 00:16:55,781 that we're pulling together to not even try. 360 00:16:55,781 --> 00:16:57,984 The biggest issue here Eric is 361 00:16:57,984 --> 00:16:59,986 the time to have the conversation 362 00:16:59,986 --> 00:17:02,955 and try to do something different is now. 363 00:17:02,955 --> 00:17:07,159 To say that someone might choose to go to Southaven 364 00:17:07,159 --> 00:17:09,495 instead of Memphis. 365 00:17:09,495 --> 00:17:11,264 You know, we've seen people try 366 00:17:11,264 --> 00:17:14,834 but even if you look at the casinos, 367 00:17:14,834 --> 00:17:17,203 everybody thought that we were gonna have 368 00:17:17,203 --> 00:17:20,439 this huge you know, second Las Vegas 369 00:17:20,439 --> 00:17:23,276 and it was still too far from Memphis to prosper 370 00:17:23,276 --> 00:17:24,877 for a long time. 371 00:17:24,877 --> 00:17:27,213 We are still the center of the Mid-South 372 00:17:27,213 --> 00:17:30,082 and that means something. 373 00:17:30,082 --> 00:17:32,385 - And again, I should note that last week 374 00:17:32,385 --> 00:17:34,754 we had Reid Dulberger from the EDGE 375 00:17:34,754 --> 00:17:36,722 as well as Worth Morgan from the City Council 376 00:17:36,722 --> 00:17:37,657 who's on the other side of this 377 00:17:37,657 --> 00:17:38,891 you can see that at wkno.org. 378 00:17:38,891 --> 00:17:40,559 Or you can download the podcast 379 00:17:40,559 --> 00:17:41,794 wherever you get your podcasts. 380 00:17:41,794 --> 00:17:43,963 So just to balance things out. 381 00:17:43,963 --> 00:17:48,968 On the issue of schools and the economy, 382 00:17:50,436 --> 00:17:52,972 or excuse me and taxes and investing in children. 383 00:17:52,972 --> 00:17:54,640 I mean, again the pushback would be, 384 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,809 I have to play the role of devil's advocate today 385 00:17:56,809 --> 00:17:59,011 given the way we structured this. 386 00:17:59,011 --> 00:18:01,314 Would be that the well, if they are, 387 00:18:01,314 --> 00:18:03,582 if those companies are moving to DeSoto County, 388 00:18:03,582 --> 00:18:07,019 be they $15 or 13 hour, $10 an hour jobs. 389 00:18:07,019 --> 00:18:08,988 The taxes, the property taxes, 390 00:18:08,988 --> 00:18:11,490 they're going into the coffers of DeSoto County, 391 00:18:11,490 --> 00:18:13,426 Marshall County, not into Shelby County, 392 00:18:13,426 --> 00:18:17,229 and so the taxes that pay for the school system go down, 393 00:18:17,229 --> 00:18:19,865 they aren't, we're not getting them. 394 00:18:19,865 --> 00:18:21,600 Commissioner your take on that? 395 00:18:23,169 --> 00:18:25,171 - Yes that's a possibility. 396 00:18:25,171 --> 00:18:27,440 You know we've had that happen before, 397 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,276 where companies have decided not to come to Memphis 398 00:18:30,276 --> 00:18:31,677 and we weren't doing anything. 399 00:18:31,677 --> 00:18:34,113 You know we weren't requiring anything. 400 00:18:34,113 --> 00:18:37,350 And so I guess, you know the other side's argument 401 00:18:37,350 --> 00:18:38,985 is if we do something different 402 00:18:38,985 --> 00:18:41,587 they might definitely choose not to come. 403 00:18:41,587 --> 00:18:44,924 But we've also seen those companies go to other places 404 00:18:44,924 --> 00:18:46,792 and then close a year later. 405 00:18:46,792 --> 00:18:50,496 And then, you know my last point there Eric is that, 406 00:18:50,496 --> 00:18:51,964 [throat clearing] 407 00:18:51,964 --> 00:18:55,234 right now we're doing nothing and still losing companies 408 00:18:55,234 --> 00:18:58,037 and still losing jobs, you know. 409 00:18:58,037 --> 00:19:00,740 So if we're still gonna have a short lifespan 410 00:19:00,740 --> 00:19:02,541 with these incentives, if the, you know 411 00:19:02,541 --> 00:19:04,010 companies are gonna bounce around 412 00:19:04,010 --> 00:19:06,445 and come here for two, three years and move on. 413 00:19:06,445 --> 00:19:08,214 Then we should get what we can from them 414 00:19:08,214 --> 00:19:09,448 for those two or three years. 415 00:19:09,448 --> 00:19:11,050 I just think that again, 416 00:19:11,050 --> 00:19:14,020 these are arguments that are presented to not try anything. 417 00:19:16,322 --> 00:19:18,491 - Councilman Jones, we mentioned ServiceMaster. 418 00:19:18,491 --> 00:19:20,459 And we talked last week with Reid Dulberger 419 00:19:20,459 --> 00:19:22,094 about ServiceMaster. 420 00:19:22,094 --> 00:19:23,963 That it is, you know the headline is that, 421 00:19:23,963 --> 00:19:25,798 "ServiceMaster is moving to Atlanta." 422 00:19:25,798 --> 00:19:29,969 In fact the bulk of the employees by his count 423 00:19:29,969 --> 00:19:33,372 is still over a 1,000 employees related to Terminix 424 00:19:33,372 --> 00:19:34,974 are still in Memphis. 425 00:19:34,974 --> 00:19:37,309 And so the PILOT was built around, 426 00:19:37,309 --> 00:19:39,478 I believe around 800, 850, 427 00:19:39,478 --> 00:19:42,114 somewhere in the 800 range of jobs. 428 00:19:42,848 --> 00:19:45,451 So the headline says one thing 429 00:19:45,451 --> 00:19:46,852 and that's on us in the media. 430 00:19:46,852 --> 00:19:48,320 But the reality is that they still have 431 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,022 a major presence here. 432 00:19:50,022 --> 00:19:53,392 Are you worried that, and those are higher paying jobs. 433 00:19:53,392 --> 00:19:56,729 Those are a more, a broader more professional jobs. 434 00:19:56,729 --> 00:19:58,197 I mean, there's a tremendous. 435 00:19:58,197 --> 00:20:01,267 It is not the low wage jobs that we've been focused on here. 436 00:20:03,102 --> 00:20:05,871 Are you concerned that Terminix will move, 437 00:20:05,871 --> 00:20:09,341 and that you know what happens if they move 438 00:20:09,341 --> 00:20:11,577 or if they want more incentives to stay? 439 00:20:11,577 --> 00:20:14,180 Those are the high paying jobs that you talked about. 440 00:20:14,180 --> 00:20:17,216 The ones that we, I think in your words should be proud of. 441 00:20:17,216 --> 00:20:19,919 How far should we go as a city, as a community 442 00:20:19,919 --> 00:20:21,721 to keep Terminix in town? 443 00:20:21,721 --> 00:20:26,258 - Well I think that if we're looking at that prospect 444 00:20:26,258 --> 00:20:28,594 then we have to respond accordingly. 445 00:20:28,594 --> 00:20:30,262 But going back to my contention, 446 00:20:30,262 --> 00:20:32,465 I think that those, and I agree with you. 447 00:20:32,465 --> 00:20:36,936 Those are the jobs that we want to be competitive with. 448 00:20:36,936 --> 00:20:39,371 Now one of the things, one of the other arguments 449 00:20:39,371 --> 00:20:43,142 that's made and I don't necessarily agree with it 450 00:20:43,142 --> 00:20:45,111 is we're talking about our workforce 451 00:20:45,111 --> 00:20:47,580 and what the education level is here. 452 00:20:47,580 --> 00:20:50,282 If we look at other competitive cities, 453 00:20:50,282 --> 00:20:53,152 Atlanta, Charlotte, Austin if you would. 454 00:20:53,152 --> 00:20:57,723 I would contend that everyone who populates those cities 455 00:20:57,723 --> 00:20:59,225 are not natives. 456 00:20:59,225 --> 00:21:01,227 What I feel that we need to be doing 457 00:21:01,227 --> 00:21:03,195 and what I strive for us to do, 458 00:21:03,195 --> 00:21:05,865 is make Memphis attractive to companies 459 00:21:05,865 --> 00:21:08,067 that would want to relocate here. 460 00:21:08,067 --> 00:21:10,803 One of the things, in this environment right now, 461 00:21:10,803 --> 00:21:13,606 we look at some high tax states 462 00:21:13,606 --> 00:21:16,842 like New York, Illinois, California. 463 00:21:16,842 --> 00:21:20,312 So if I had my druthers about me, 464 00:21:20,312 --> 00:21:23,082 we would have personnel on the ground 465 00:21:23,082 --> 00:21:27,686 recruiting for Memphis in those areas to bring them here. 466 00:21:27,686 --> 00:21:30,055 That's what I think that economic development 467 00:21:30,055 --> 00:21:32,158 and incentive need to look like. 468 00:21:32,158 --> 00:21:33,492 If this required of us 469 00:21:33,492 --> 00:21:36,195 to provide more funding for us to do so, 470 00:21:36,195 --> 00:21:37,396 I'm in agreement with that. 471 00:21:37,396 --> 00:21:38,964 But I don't think we're doing a good job 472 00:21:38,964 --> 00:21:42,034 of selling ourselves as an attractive city. 473 00:21:42,034 --> 00:21:43,302 - All right. 474 00:21:43,302 --> 00:21:44,970 - That's the direction I think we need to move. 475 00:21:44,970 --> 00:21:46,172 - We'll go to Bill. 476 00:21:47,540 --> 00:21:50,609 - Let's talk about the series of two meetings 477 00:21:50,609 --> 00:21:55,581 that the first one has been held as we record this. 478 00:21:57,049 --> 00:21:58,651 But Commissioner Sawyer since we can't talk about 479 00:21:58,651 --> 00:22:00,352 what actually happened at that meeting, 480 00:22:00,352 --> 00:22:02,454 since we're recording today, 481 00:22:02,454 --> 00:22:05,257 what are your expectations for the meeting, 482 00:22:05,257 --> 00:22:07,927 what specifically do you want to come out 483 00:22:07,927 --> 00:22:09,895 of these two joint sessions? 484 00:22:11,263 --> 00:22:13,699 - So we were able to make requests in advance. 485 00:22:13,699 --> 00:22:15,901 And one of the requests that we had 486 00:22:15,901 --> 00:22:19,405 was one that we start from a baseline. 487 00:22:19,405 --> 00:22:24,276 And you know so everyone has access to the same information. 488 00:22:24,276 --> 00:22:27,279 And so we reviewed different reports 489 00:22:27,279 --> 00:22:31,317 and you know we're able to come into this conversation 490 00:22:32,685 --> 00:22:34,186 from a similar standing point. 491 00:22:34,186 --> 00:22:36,789 Even though our outlook might disagree 492 00:22:37,723 --> 00:22:39,525 and be on different sides. 493 00:22:39,525 --> 00:22:42,261 What I hope that these two meetings 494 00:22:42,261 --> 00:22:45,431 ended up being is not a waste of time. 495 00:22:45,431 --> 00:22:47,366 You and I have talked about it before. 496 00:22:47,366 --> 00:22:49,468 I don't want it to be PowerPoint mania. 497 00:22:49,468 --> 00:22:53,839 I want us to, what I struggle with as a County Commissioner 498 00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:55,074 is a lot of talking 499 00:22:55,074 --> 00:22:58,310 and not a lot of action or change happening. 500 00:22:58,310 --> 00:23:00,179 And so what I hope that these two meetings 501 00:23:00,179 --> 00:23:03,816 come out with is, either a game plan 502 00:23:03,816 --> 00:23:06,185 for the County Commission and City Council to say, 503 00:23:06,185 --> 00:23:09,622 "Here's what we agree on, here's what we think we can do." 504 00:23:09,622 --> 00:23:14,026 You know, whether it be having a Community Investment Fund, 505 00:23:14,026 --> 00:23:17,463 or agreeing to setting a minimum wage, whatever it is, 506 00:23:17,463 --> 00:23:21,000 or investing in recruitment, you know. 507 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,468 Whatever the case may be. 508 00:23:23,836 --> 00:23:25,170 Something has to come of it. 509 00:23:25,170 --> 00:23:27,606 Otherwise we just spent the taxpayer's money 510 00:23:27,606 --> 00:23:29,441 for nice lunch and sodas. 511 00:23:30,609 --> 00:23:33,979 - Councilman, your hopes for these two 512 00:23:33,979 --> 00:23:35,581 very important meetings. 513 00:23:36,749 --> 00:23:38,951 - I'll go back to the fact that this is a, 514 00:23:38,951 --> 00:23:43,822 EDGE is a function that was created by the prior 515 00:23:43,822 --> 00:23:46,825 or previous City Councils and County Commissions. 516 00:23:46,825 --> 00:23:48,827 And it will be I'm coming up, 517 00:23:48,827 --> 00:23:51,930 well I'm in the sixth year of my term. 518 00:23:51,930 --> 00:23:56,935 And so for us to have this body and for the elected body 519 00:23:57,836 --> 00:24:00,072 to not review and determine 520 00:24:00,072 --> 00:24:02,007 what should be the future direction, 521 00:24:02,007 --> 00:24:04,376 I think it will be a dereliction of our elected duties 522 00:24:04,376 --> 00:24:07,379 in the trust that citizens of Memphis and Shelby County 523 00:24:07,379 --> 00:24:08,847 have entrusted us with. 524 00:24:08,847 --> 00:24:13,786 So we have to take a look back and assess and determine 525 00:24:13,786 --> 00:24:17,489 if or not we are satisfied with the results. 526 00:24:17,489 --> 00:24:19,758 And the whole definition of insanity 527 00:24:19,758 --> 00:24:21,727 is continue to do the same thing 528 00:24:21,727 --> 00:24:23,429 but expect different results. 529 00:24:23,429 --> 00:24:25,030 We have to look at that. 530 00:24:25,030 --> 00:24:29,335 I am not satisfied with the result that we have seen 531 00:24:29,335 --> 00:24:31,637 whether it's from a wage standpoint, 532 00:24:31,637 --> 00:24:35,507 whether it's from an industry standpoint. 533 00:24:35,507 --> 00:24:39,044 And I think that I don't want roll off of the City Council 534 00:24:40,412 --> 00:24:42,314 see that going forward, 535 00:24:42,314 --> 00:24:43,549 we're heading in the same direction 536 00:24:43,549 --> 00:24:45,551 where we've been over the past 10 years- 537 00:24:46,652 --> 00:24:47,886 - Let me, I'm gonna say, a minute, 538 00:24:47,886 --> 00:24:49,288 I'm sorry Bill to interrupt you 539 00:24:49,288 --> 00:24:50,723 just with a minute left here. 540 00:24:50,723 --> 00:24:52,257 I wanted to take actually a bit of a left turn 541 00:24:52,257 --> 00:24:54,393 because we have you both here and you know, 542 00:24:54,393 --> 00:24:57,363 the topic of the day and still remains COVID. 543 00:24:57,363 --> 00:24:59,398 And as we you referenced earlier you know 544 00:24:59,398 --> 00:25:01,166 changes in how the distribution is happening 545 00:25:01,166 --> 00:25:03,769 it does seem that that distribution is smoother now, 546 00:25:03,769 --> 00:25:05,904 more people are getting it and obviously supply 547 00:25:05,904 --> 00:25:07,039 from the federal government 548 00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:08,674 and the manufacturers is increasing. 549 00:25:08,674 --> 00:25:09,908 And there are some people out there 550 00:25:09,908 --> 00:25:11,143 who are talking on a national level 551 00:25:11,143 --> 00:25:12,911 about the whole situation flipping 552 00:25:12,911 --> 00:25:16,482 where demand will be the problem not supply. 553 00:25:16,482 --> 00:25:18,016 And I guess I'll go to you first Tami. 554 00:25:18,016 --> 00:25:21,954 I mean, one of the groups that has vaccine hesitancy, 555 00:25:21,954 --> 00:25:24,089 hesitancy about the vaccines on a national level 556 00:25:24,089 --> 00:25:26,125 is black communities. 557 00:25:26,125 --> 00:25:28,193 There's much history to that we don't have enough time 558 00:25:28,193 --> 00:25:29,661 to get into. 559 00:25:29,661 --> 00:25:32,264 But the horrific history of experimentation on black people 560 00:25:32,264 --> 00:25:35,834 and people of color and poor people in this country is real 561 00:25:35,834 --> 00:25:38,604 and present in the hesitancy. 562 00:25:38,604 --> 00:25:41,840 What are you hearing from your constituents 563 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,777 about their eagerness or their wariness 564 00:25:44,777 --> 00:25:46,678 of getting the vaccine? 565 00:25:48,180 --> 00:25:50,449 - Just very quickly. 566 00:25:50,449 --> 00:25:54,820 I think that the hesitancy has been a bit overstated. 567 00:25:54,820 --> 00:25:57,890 You know, people, white people in the South 568 00:25:57,890 --> 00:26:01,493 are just as hesitant as black in the South you know. 569 00:26:01,493 --> 00:26:05,330 - One study was yeah, I should yeah 40% of Republicans 570 00:26:05,330 --> 00:26:07,733 about nationally don't wanna get the vaccine 571 00:26:07,733 --> 00:26:09,668 and a big percentage are hesitant. 572 00:26:09,668 --> 00:26:10,969 Go ahead. - Thank you. 573 00:26:10,969 --> 00:26:13,472 And so what I'm hearing from my constituents, 574 00:26:13,472 --> 00:26:16,308 they wanna be informed, you know. 575 00:26:16,308 --> 00:26:17,810 Some people are waiting to see. 576 00:26:17,810 --> 00:26:19,645 I'm seeing a lot of people 577 00:26:19,645 --> 00:26:21,947 share what their experiences with the vaccine 578 00:26:21,947 --> 00:26:25,284 and I think people wanna be healthy. 579 00:26:25,284 --> 00:26:26,752 - Yeah all right. 580 00:26:26,752 --> 00:26:28,320 We're out of time, I appreciate that. 581 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:29,755 I appreciate Councilman Jones, 582 00:26:29,755 --> 00:26:31,557 thank you for being here, Commissioner Sawyer. 583 00:26:31,557 --> 00:26:33,258 That is all the time we had this week. 584 00:26:33,258 --> 00:26:35,027 Remember you can get past episodes of the show 585 00:26:35,027 --> 00:26:37,896 at wkno.org, or you can download the full podcast 586 00:26:37,896 --> 00:26:40,165 of the show wherever you get your podcasts. 587 00:26:40,165 --> 00:26:41,600 Thanks and we'll see you next week. 588 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,203 [intense orchestral music] 589 00:26:57,516 --> 00:26:59,518 [acoustic guitar chords]